>wah it's not turn-based anymore
Why are so many FF fans so delusional?
The only reason we accepted turn-based combat back in the day was because it was necessary due to technical limitations. Going back to such a dated system would be like getting rid of save files and asking everyone to save their games using passwords again.
Why do franchises need to do a complete and utter 180? It's ok to adapt, make minor changes, and still retain your core. Look at all of the 3d FF games. They're all different in their own way, and yet they all still retain a core to it. 16 looks like it completely and utterly abandons that core. You think after 20+ years, Smash should suddenly be an open world looter shooter? Because change?
Final Fantasy's "core" has been chocobos, moogles, a guy named Cid and a focus on narrative and visual spectacle. In gameplay the mainline franchise have moved between turn-based, ATB, MMO-style systems, and now action for the second time, and the last actual "turn-based" title was 20 years ago, on a franchise celebrating its 35th anniversary right now. The series have always moved towards real-time is it is logical for what they want to do visually.
The problem isn't that it's not turn based
the problem is that,out of a billion different types of action,they went with fricking DMC,the literal most actiony least RPG kind of them all
>it was necessary due to technical limitations
Uhh, you know ARPGs have been around since the 80s.
They could have made it an action game any time they wanted, hell they could have started it as an action RPG. Turn-based was a choice, not a necessity
It wasn't just about action, it was about combining storytelling of multiple characters with a very long game with many locations.
Name me an action game at the time of FF IV, V or VI that was as long as those games.
>that was as long as those games
what's that got to do with anything? What happens when you press a button doesn't have any bearing on the length of a game.
the snes version of ToP is barely an action game because literally every party member besides cress is a caster that causes the entire screen to freeze during all of their spells or your shitty archer friend from the opening who just kind of spams arrow attacks
you may as well say chrono trigger is an action game because the enemies move around and you can sometimes miss hitting everyone with an aoe
The last decade proved action gameplay is outdated and boring.
At best you get a DMC clone, at worst you get yet another arkham button masher with enough magnetism to fry every electronic device in your path as you snap to a baddy on the other side of the continent, a guy which you weren't even aiming for mind you.
The only reason we still accept action-based combat today is because it's necessary due to technical limitations with the lowest common denominator's IQ levels.
Ah yes, the genre that allows midwits to feel like g4m3r pr0s like they are the second coming of donguri after they kill something with nothing but button mashing at best, stinger spam or the specific game's one-shot "glitch" that the devs leave for shitters at worst.
Picking the same buff and debuff input over and over again is such high IQ gameplay. Even better, just mash attack and cure bro! God, I'm so high iq. LMAO
See above.
Is it really intellectually stimulating to play as the equivalent of a forklift driver? >See thing. >Press the exact same button sequence as always. >Thing dies.
You are be lucky to have more than 1 attack button outside of fighting games these days, and even DMC itself is leaving more complex inputs and juggle physics on the wayside in favor of "just spam funny red orb hat lol".
>after they kill something with nothing but button mashing at best, stinger spam or the specific game's one-shot "glitch" that the devs leave for shitters at worst.
You're right, it's so easy and braindead anon. Anyone can do it. Your truestyle video, then?
>intellectually stimulating to play as the equivalent of a forklift driver
Stop with this moronic shit , when i was young i played FFX and KH2 at around the same age.
KH2 was way harder to finish for me , if you really want to compare in "intellectual stimulation" then unless the turn base game is super hard , the action game will win almost every time.
"turn-based vs action" is the same old "nerds vs jocks" shit carried over into actual nerd shit.
"yeah they do all the cool looking flashy stuff but I'M so much smarter! (as they "beat" story games made for japanese grade school children)
1 year ago
Anonymous
holy projection...
1 year ago
Anonymous
he is right , a lot of turn base fundamentalist really think that turn base is for hight IQ and action games are for moron
1 year ago
Anonymous
>turn base fundamentalist
lmao
and yeah, 99% of single player action games ARE for morons, the only good action games are competitive genres like fightan
1 year ago
Anonymous
>99% of single player action games ARE for morons
99% of ALL games are for moron including your precious turn base game , how can you not see this , video game are for the masses.
You are not smart for playing turn base game.
1 year ago
Anonymous
fair enough...I can now see where this has come from. I retract my amusing post.
Picking the same buff and debuff input over and over again is such high IQ gameplay. Even better, just mash attack and cure bro! God, I'm so high iq. LMAO
>The only reason we accepted turn-based combat back in the day was because it was necessary due to technical limitations.
There are action RPGs going as far back as the NES. have a nice day.
>I just want a good mainline Final Fantasy game again
there's only been like 4 good mainline final fantasy games and there's been none since they stopped being squaresoft. it's always been a series that exists due to really good spinoffs and strong marketing because the majority of 1-15 have been mogged to hell by other japanese rpgs released around the same time
if its a dmc clone then i'm sold it'd be a lot better than XVs hold O combat
to be fair they literally used "we got the guy behind the combat in dmc5" as a selling point
One look at the trailers is enough to show me this is simply not true. I've come to assume that anyone who posts this kind of bullshit is a salty oldgay who never ever played an action game and ONLY plays turn-based and maybe grand strategy and visual novels.
Why do franchises need to do a complete and utter 180? It's ok to adapt, make minor changes, and still retain your core. Look at all of the 3d FF games. They're all different in their own way, and yet they all still retain a core to it. 16 looks like it completely and utterly abandons that core. You think after 20+ years, Smash should suddenly be an open world looter shooter? Because change?
[...]
Final Fantasy's "core" has been chocobos, moogles, a guy named Cid and a focus on narrative and visual spectacle. In gameplay the mainline franchise have moved between turn-based, ATB, MMO-style systems, and now action for the second time, and the last actual "turn-based" title was 20 years ago, on a franchise celebrating its 35th anniversary right now. The series have always moved towards real-time is it is logical for what they want to do visually.
If you hate FF, then don't play it. That's fine. No one is making you play it. The unfortunate part is that they made a game to appeal to people that don't actually like FF games.
What the hell is your argument even you fricking moron. Just because people didn't like the shitty gameplay those old FF games had, doesn't mean those people hate FF. Fricking hell. You can be critical for at least some parts of a videogame and still love them you fricking moronic autist.
Anon, I love the series. I've loved it since I played FFVI on a modded SNES that could play NTSC cartridges even though I could barely read English back then.
I guarantee you that very, very, VERY little people fell in love with the series because of the stellar menu-based combat gameplay. And the main reasons for the decline the past 15 years have very little to do with the combat gameplay systems used and everything with development hells and bad writing.
After XIII trilogy, XIV 1.0's flop and the unfinished trainwreck of XV, XIV redeemed the franchise for me, and it's an MMO, not turn-based. And with the same team on XVI I'm giving that a shot as well. Because the core of FF has NEVER been its gameplay, but storytelling, emotional drama and visual spectacle.
Wrong.
Turn-based is KINO.
I don't expect an MMO-troon to understand anything about good gameplay.
KYS now or KYS later. It is inevitable that you KYS someday.
How many anons have been called Barry due to some strange delusion?
All MMO's are trash.
You (You) are trash.
Refrain from ever commenting on RPG's again.
>Because the core of FF has NEVER been its gameplay
speaks volumes about this garbage series' worth when gameplay in a videoGAME isn't the biggest attraction, no wonder the fanbase is a bunch of tourettic schizos who can't stop fighting among themselves and with other people, you homies belong in Ganker
The 3/4 guys in a row turn-based template is a solved game. It's why there has been no evolution to it since FF X's rock-paper-scissors iteration.
The only ways to expand on it is either add more characters and movement, at which point you get an SRPG, or speed things up and focus on one character at a time, so you get FF VII Remake or XV/XVI.
Why do franchises need to do a complete and utter 180? It's ok to adapt, make minor changes, and still retain your core. Look at all of the 3d FF games. They're all different in their own way, and yet they all still retain a core to it. 16 looks like it completely and utterly abandons that core. You think after 20+ years, Smash should suddenly be an open world looter shooter? Because change?
Irrelevant nostalgiagayging post. Why change? Why not change?
I'm pretty sure game devs would get tired of making the same game for 40 years, having dug themselves into a hole with an anachronistic and limited system.
The Legend of Zelda started out as a top-down perspective action game, the second game was a side-scroller. OoT was 3D and BotW is open world. Things change, wake up grandpa.
A clear ignorance.
Turn-based makes certain narratives and pacings possible that cannot be done with action game-play.
The question is already answered.
Your own misunderstandings have no bearing on reality.
Yes, cutscenes are an excellent example.
In a turn-based game, cutscenes fit in easily and smoothly.
In an action game, it is jarring.
You are simply too stupid to understand anything about game design.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It is jarring even in fricking turn based JRPGs you fricking moronic idiot.
1 year ago
Anonymous
And you're like 10 years behind with the times in which you obviously haven't played anything but turn-based games.
1 year ago
Anonymous
It is jarring even in fricking turn based JRPGs you fricking moronic idiot.
No, you simply have no senses. (applies to both posters)
1 year ago
Anonymous
Just watch how moronic that shit looked in Yakuza 7. It gets a "pass" in those older FF games because the designs was stylized and somehow your still underdeveloped brain just accepted the dumbassery where you'll just stand there taking in a giant earth shattering attack. At least in Y7 they played it off as Ichi being a chuuni. But when it got serious, like during a boss fight, it looks fricking moronic when the game cuts into a cutscene mid battle and see how fast the action really was only to then cuts back to everyone taking turns like a moron.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>In a turn-based game, cutscenes fit in easily and smoothly. >In an action game, it is jarring.
this is just you personnal preferences , nothing intrinsic to turn base combat make it better for cutscenes/story
1 year ago
Anonymous
Wrong.
Turn-based is inherently a "Interact and Observe" form. A cutscene simply adds another element of observation.
Action, on the other hand, is the blend of interaction and observation. There is no gap between, and so when a gap is created, it is jarring.
Simple.
Just watch how moronic that shit looked in Yakuza 7. It gets a "pass" in those older FF games because the designs was stylized and somehow your still underdeveloped brain just accepted the dumbassery where you'll just stand there taking in a giant earth shattering attack. At least in Y7 they played it off as Ichi being a chuuni. But when it got serious, like during a boss fight, it looks fricking moronic when the game cuts into a cutscene mid battle and see how fast the action really was only to then cuts back to everyone taking turns like a moron.
Yes, I understand you have no eyes, no ears, and no soul. Such is life, you don't need to elaborate anymore.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Why do you turn based morons always argue like a 12y/o?
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Turn-based is inherently a "Interact and Observe" form. A cutscene simply adds another element of observation. >Action, on the other hand, is the blend of interaction and observation. There is no gap between, and so when a gap is created, it is jarring.
You are delusional nobody think like this , this is just a headcanon to justify your preferences
1 year ago
Anonymous
Just because you have no capacity to judge does not mean that others do not.
Why change? Because dosh
Why not change? Because fans don't like it when the "devs" go for mass appeal. Dead Space 3, Lost Planet 3, Halo 4, etc etc etc.
13 solved how to make turn based (atb isn't exactly turn based but whatever) fast and flashy but waaaaaahhhhh I don't want to read the codex waaaaaahhhhh I don't like the first two chapters and waaaaaahhhhh it's linear just like every other game in the series
I love turn-based and action JRPGs and I don't really care that XVI isn't going for turn-based. There are plenty of other games that utilize those systems, and when I feel the mood to play FF it's because I think "I want turn-based," it's because I think "I want FF."
That being said, I can understand to an extent the way turn-based fans feel. If Ys X was announced at random to be a turn-based game after almost 35 years of being an action game, I would probably wonder why. I'd still enjoy it though, as long as the turn-based was good.
Why do franchises need to do a complete and utter 180? It's ok to adapt, make minor changes, and still retain your core. Look at all of the 3d FF games. They're all different in their own way, and yet they all still retain a core to it. 16 looks like it completely and utterly abandons that core. You think after 20+ years, Smash should suddenly be an open world looter shooter? Because change?
>wah it's not turn-based anymore
Why are so many FF fans so delusional?
The only reason we accepted turn-based combat back in the day was because it was necessary due to technical limitations. Going back to such a dated system would be like getting rid of save files and asking everyone to save their games using passwords again.
>dated system
>Pokemon
>One Piece Odyssey
>X-Com
Ok Zoom zoom
Why are you saying Pokemon when that's the one that needs to get rid of the turn-based combat the most?
Why do franchises need to do a complete and utter 180? It's ok to adapt, make minor changes, and still retain your core. Look at all of the 3d FF games. They're all different in their own way, and yet they all still retain a core to it. 16 looks like it completely and utterly abandons that core. You think after 20+ years, Smash should suddenly be an open world looter shooter? Because change?
Final Fantasy's "core" has been chocobos, moogles, a guy named Cid and a focus on narrative and visual spectacle. In gameplay the mainline franchise have moved between turn-based, ATB, MMO-style systems, and now action for the second time, and the last actual "turn-based" title was 20 years ago, on a franchise celebrating its 35th anniversary right now. The series have always moved towards real-time is it is logical for what they want to do visually.
standard ESL post in defense of...
What?
Some inevitable end of turn-based...Like a Dragon ETC.
>Because change?
Yes and that's a good thing
>You've changed
>We're supposed to
>Progressives think they are butterflies.
Truly troony brained people.
The problem isn't that it's not turn based
the problem is that,out of a billion different types of action,they went with fricking DMC,the literal most actiony least RPG kind of them all
It's not DMC.
>it was necessary due to technical limitations
Uhh, you know ARPGs have been around since the 80s.
They could have made it an action game any time they wanted, hell they could have started it as an action RPG. Turn-based was a choice, not a necessity
It wasn't just about action, it was about combining storytelling of multiple characters with a very long game with many locations.
Name me an action game at the time of FF IV, V or VI that was as long as those games.
>that was as long as those games
what's that got to do with anything? What happens when you press a button doesn't have any bearing on the length of a game.
Anyway,
>Star Ocean 21 hours
>FFIV 22 hours.
>FFV 32 hours
>Tales of Phantasia 32 hours
the snes version of ToP is barely an action game because literally every party member besides cress is a caster that causes the entire screen to freeze during all of their spells or your shitty archer friend from the opening who just kind of spams arrow attacks
you may as well say chrono trigger is an action game because the enemies move around and you can sometimes miss hitting everyone with an aoe
The last decade proved action gameplay is outdated and boring.
At best you get a DMC clone, at worst you get yet another arkham button masher with enough magnetism to fry every electronic device in your path as you snap to a baddy on the other side of the continent, a guy which you weren't even aiming for mind you.
The only reason we still accept action-based combat today is because it's necessary due to technical limitations with the lowest common denominator's IQ levels.
>At best you get a DMC clone
And that's a good thing
Ah yes, the genre that allows midwits to feel like g4m3r pr0s like they are the second coming of donguri after they kill something with nothing but button mashing at best, stinger spam or the specific game's one-shot "glitch" that the devs leave for shitters at worst.
See above.
Is it really intellectually stimulating to play as the equivalent of a forklift driver?
>See thing.
>Press the exact same button sequence as always.
>Thing dies.
You are be lucky to have more than 1 attack button outside of fighting games these days, and even DMC itself is leaving more complex inputs and juggle physics on the wayside in favor of "just spam funny red orb hat lol".
>after they kill something with nothing but button mashing at best, stinger spam or the specific game's one-shot "glitch" that the devs leave for shitters at worst.
You're right, it's so easy and braindead anon. Anyone can do it. Your truestyle video, then?
>this game isn't easy because you can deliberately show off by killing enemies in the most roundabout way possible
big dmc fan but lets not pretend that you can't spam divekicks/real impact and SSS every difficulty
okay but you got proof though right?
>intellectually stimulating to play as the equivalent of a forklift driver
Stop with this moronic shit , when i was young i played FFX and KH2 at around the same age.
KH2 was way harder to finish for me , if you really want to compare in "intellectual stimulation" then unless the turn base game is super hard , the action game will win almost every time.
"turn-based vs action" is the same old "nerds vs jocks" shit carried over into actual nerd shit.
"yeah they do all the cool looking flashy stuff but I'M so much smarter! (as they "beat" story games made for japanese grade school children)
holy projection...
he is right , a lot of turn base fundamentalist really think that turn base is for hight IQ and action games are for moron
>turn base fundamentalist
lmao
and yeah, 99% of single player action games ARE for morons, the only good action games are competitive genres like fightan
>99% of single player action games ARE for morons
99% of ALL games are for moron including your precious turn base game , how can you not see this , video game are for the masses.
You are not smart for playing turn base game.
fair enough...I can now see where this has come from. I retract my amusing post.
>KH2 was way harder to finish for me
You have brain damage then, the magnet spell makes the game an absolute joke.
I was like 7 , i remenber thinking the spell was lame so i never used it .
Same with reflect barely used it.
>Actionkek is a literal manchild.
Not even surprised.
i WAS a child
>the genre that allows midwits to feel like g4m3r pr0s
That's JPRGs
Picking the same buff and debuff input over and over again is such high IQ gameplay. Even better, just mash attack and cure bro! God, I'm so high iq. LMAO
You will feel how they feel when you get erectile dysfunction soon.
>The only reason we accepted turn-based combat back in the day was because it was necessary due to technical limitations.
There are action RPGs going as far back as the NES. have a nice day.
Frickers like that have never played anything outside of turn-based jarpigs
Persona 5 was one of the biggest hits in recent memory, cope.
if its a dmc clone then i'm sold it'd be a lot better than XVs hold O combat
ARPGS
ARENT
DMC
CLONES
YOU
FRICKING
CRAPCOM
homosexual
HOLY
SHIT
KILL
YOURSELF
Dmc is an rpg because you have to grind orbs to unlock abilities
>I just want a good mainline Final Fantasy game again
there's only been like 4 good mainline final fantasy games and there's been none since they stopped being squaresoft. it's always been a series that exists due to really good spinoffs and strong marketing because the majority of 1-15 have been mogged to hell by other japanese rpgs released around the same time
to be fair they literally used "we got the guy behind the combat in dmc5" as a selling point
I don’t understand how FF gays get excited for action schlock when DMC5 is always going to be better
Dragonflight sales numbers, foxxo?
What's dragonflight?
Go back to your containment board.
feels bad OP...
Hopefully Falcom gets back on track and delivers some KINO
Barrysissies, sbk91trannies, it's over. Dmc won
it's not mandatory for action rpgs to have a shitty combat system like most if not all arpgs do
>DMC clone
One look at the trailers is enough to show me this is simply not true. I've come to assume that anyone who posts this kind of bullshit is a salty oldgay who never ever played an action game and ONLY plays turn-based and maybe grand strategy and visual novels.
see
The definition of a safe edgy kusoge.
Ah yes, because those old FF games are good because you can just spam Attack and Cure innit? Fricking dumb frick.
If you hate FF, then don't play it. That's fine. No one is making you play it. The unfortunate part is that they made a game to appeal to people that don't actually like FF games.
Shut up you stupid moron holy shit
>I LIKE ACTION THEREFORE I LE HATE FF
have a nice day
>no arguments
zoom zoom
What the hell is your argument even you fricking moron. Just because people didn't like the shitty gameplay those old FF games had, doesn't mean those people hate FF. Fricking hell. You can be critical for at least some parts of a videogame and still love them you fricking moronic autist.
Anon, I love the series. I've loved it since I played FFVI on a modded SNES that could play NTSC cartridges even though I could barely read English back then.
I guarantee you that very, very, VERY little people fell in love with the series because of the stellar menu-based combat gameplay. And the main reasons for the decline the past 15 years have very little to do with the combat gameplay systems used and everything with development hells and bad writing.
After XIII trilogy, XIV 1.0's flop and the unfinished trainwreck of XV, XIV redeemed the franchise for me, and it's an MMO, not turn-based. And with the same team on XVI I'm giving that a shot as well. Because the core of FF has NEVER been its gameplay, but storytelling, emotional drama and visual spectacle.
Wrong.
Turn-based is KINO.
I don't expect an MMO-troon to understand anything about good gameplay.
KYS now or KYS later. It is inevitable that you KYS someday.
WoW is the troon game Barry.
How many anons have been called Barry due to some strange delusion?
All MMO's are trash.
You (You) are trash.
Refrain from ever commenting on RPG's again.
>very, very, VERY little people fell in love with the series because of the stellar menu-based combat gameplay
Then they aren't real FF fans.
>and it's an MMO, not turn-based
Oh yes it is, your turn comes up every 2.5 seconds.
So, ATB?
>Because the core of FF has NEVER been its gameplay
speaks volumes about this garbage series' worth when gameplay in a videoGAME isn't the biggest attraction, no wonder the fanbase is a bunch of tourettic schizos who can't stop fighting among themselves and with other people, you homies belong in Ganker
The 3/4 guys in a row turn-based template is a solved game. It's why there has been no evolution to it since FF X's rock-paper-scissors iteration.
The only ways to expand on it is either add more characters and movement, at which point you get an SRPG, or speed things up and focus on one character at a time, so you get FF VII Remake or XV/XVI.
see
Irrelevant nostalgiagayging post. Why change? Why not change?
I'm pretty sure game devs would get tired of making the same game for 40 years, having dug themselves into a hole with an anachronistic and limited system.
The Legend of Zelda started out as a top-down perspective action game, the second game was a side-scroller. OoT was 3D and BotW is open world. Things change, wake up grandpa.
A clear ignorance.
Turn-based makes certain narratives and pacings possible that cannot be done with action game-play.
The question is already answered.
Your own misunderstandings have no bearing on reality.
>Turn-based makes certain narratives and pacings possible that cannot be done with action game-play.
>what are cutscenes
Yes, cutscenes are an excellent example.
In a turn-based game, cutscenes fit in easily and smoothly.
In an action game, it is jarring.
You are simply too stupid to understand anything about game design.
It is jarring even in fricking turn based JRPGs you fricking moronic idiot.
And you're like 10 years behind with the times in which you obviously haven't played anything but turn-based games.
No, you simply have no senses. (applies to both posters)
Just watch how moronic that shit looked in Yakuza 7. It gets a "pass" in those older FF games because the designs was stylized and somehow your still underdeveloped brain just accepted the dumbassery where you'll just stand there taking in a giant earth shattering attack. At least in Y7 they played it off as Ichi being a chuuni. But when it got serious, like during a boss fight, it looks fricking moronic when the game cuts into a cutscene mid battle and see how fast the action really was only to then cuts back to everyone taking turns like a moron.
>In a turn-based game, cutscenes fit in easily and smoothly.
>In an action game, it is jarring.
this is just you personnal preferences , nothing intrinsic to turn base combat make it better for cutscenes/story
Wrong.
Turn-based is inherently a "Interact and Observe" form. A cutscene simply adds another element of observation.
Action, on the other hand, is the blend of interaction and observation. There is no gap between, and so when a gap is created, it is jarring.
Simple.
Yes, I understand you have no eyes, no ears, and no soul. Such is life, you don't need to elaborate anymore.
Why do you turn based morons always argue like a 12y/o?
>Turn-based is inherently a "Interact and Observe" form. A cutscene simply adds another element of observation.
>Action, on the other hand, is the blend of interaction and observation. There is no gap between, and so when a gap is created, it is jarring.
You are delusional nobody think like this , this is just a headcanon to justify your preferences
Just because you have no capacity to judge does not mean that others do not.
I don't give a frick about what game devs think I would whip them to get games faster if I could.
Why change? Because dosh
Why not change? Because fans don't like it when the "devs" go for mass appeal. Dead Space 3, Lost Planet 3, Halo 4, etc etc etc.
>It's why there has been no evolution to it since FF X's rock-paper-scissors iteration.
Except X-2 was a direct upgrade to it?
13 solved how to make turn based (atb isn't exactly turn based but whatever) fast and flashy but waaaaaahhhhh I don't want to read the codex waaaaaahhhhh I don't like the first two chapters and waaaaaahhhhh it's linear just like every other game in the series
>ESL
>beloved JRPG franchise changes to become a DMC clone
name 37
I love turn-based and action JRPGs and I don't really care that XVI isn't going for turn-based. There are plenty of other games that utilize those systems, and when I feel the mood to play FF it's because I think "I want turn-based," it's because I think "I want FF."
That being said, I can understand to an extent the way turn-based fans feel. If Ys X was announced at random to be a turn-based game after almost 35 years of being an action game, I would probably wonder why. I'd still enjoy it though, as long as the turn-based was good.
Yes, this is my position as well. But these fools insist on poking the situation with stupid and worthless critiques of a viable form of gameplay.
Why does FF make zoomers so mad? They missed out on the best games I guess, and want everyone to be as miserable as them
it wishes it was a DMC clone
shut the frick up barry
FF16 will heal the Franchise Wound that FF15 made even bigger.
>And that is good
They released like 20 turn based jrpgs last year. Nobody played them.
There's sixteen of the frickers, stands to reason they'd probably change a little by this point.
see