They dont need to change the formula. They just need to make another skyrim. And I am not talking about re-releasing skyrim for 20th time. Its that simple.
They do, because Bethesda doesn't exist in a vacuum, no matter how ignorant their fanboys are. They will look hopelessly outdated to the competition if nothing is done. Witcher 4 will once again mog Bethesda if they just put out a clunky Skyrim 2. Baldur's Gate 3 is beating Starfield this year.
>Baldur's Gate 3 is beating Starfield this year.
not even the same sort of game. BG3 is an interactive homo porn movie interspersed with slow RNG table top dice & card "combat". Starfield is a very flawed FPS action game akin to the Farcry games but with far more potential.
Yes there is & that means homos will always exist. Starfield is very flawed & to a point BG3 does actually deserve a GOTY award more than Starfield as BG3 did deliver what hat was expected, it hasn't got complaints from ppl who play it (for the most part tho ppl still have complaints). I am a realist who see things for what they are. The 7 out of 10, 70% score is accurate for Starfield & yet I like the game despite knowing it is very flawed, was poorly written & the modders have already got to work fast to fix the things that should have been done.
>you just have to play 12h and wave away your refund right bro >you have to go to NG+++ where the real fun starts bro >you have to complete the main quest to get all the fun stuff bro >you have to follow X specific path to enjoy the game bro
No, because it worked for >Oblivion >FO3 >New Vegas >Skyrim >FO4
Bethesda has made the same product for decades now which can safely generate a massive pile of money. I blame the fans for being a bunch of dribbling retards who're happy to play the exact same game until they die
it's actually pretty impressive they've managed to makle large cities that you can leave without a loading screen with physics objects, that said their work around was to have a SSD required loading screen every 10 feet because consoles can't handle the game
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
alright point given, yet perhaps im too picky but, the sounds, the physics, the terrain generation, some aspects of the UI, I do feel deja vu playing it, give it a try and open the scaner, its the same sound effect as the pip boy
That's not the original version of Skyrim that is at 95%
And I'm pretty sure I remember Fallout 4 being at "mixed" for a long time.
Starfield is a game that'll have a sustained, long term success, like all Bethesda RPGs. Those 77% are just from the first batch of buyers that always includes the usual retards who complain about stupid shit.
yea games poor performance poor rpg mechanics and lackluster shooting terrible AI is just stupid shit huh?
not that anon but >game por perrformance
created with the presently released bethesdashite.engine >poor RPG mechanics
terrible traits, skills and such, I'm level 10 and have not spend a single skill point as I don't see the point of it, no considerable improvement by choosing a skill >lackluster shotting
truly is >terrible AI
this doesn't even go just for followers, but the enemies are so fucking retarded also
I mean compared to actual trash like cyberpunk it's better in every way except the loading, but even cyberpunk couldn't have too many scripted ride alongs because it was so janky at launch
Cyberpunk is 100x better written, better characters, better performance and graphics, the combat and gunplay is like 1000x better than this boring fucking starfield shit. It has actual builds and rpg elements. In what fucking NG+ universe do you live where this shitgame is better than cp77? And 2.0 will be even better.
>yea games poor performance poor rpg mechanics and lackluster shooting terrible AI is just stupid shit huh?
No, those are valid complaints. But Skyrim and Fallout 4 already had poor RPG mechanics and the shooting and general gunfights are far better in Starfield that in any previous Bethesda games involving gunfights.
>and general gunfights are far better in Starfield that in any previous Bethesda games involving gunfights.
thats wrong. far less weapons than fo4 and the AI is straight up worse than fo4. leading to very easy and lame gunfights. less interesting monsters to fight too.
It really feels corporate and sanitized. I could honestly look past all of the other problems if the side content and characters were actually well written
They changed it for worse for Starfield. Replaced carefully handcrafted world with procedural generated empty boxes, replaced memorable characters with faceless bots, and replaced the adventure with glorified Fast Travel loading screen minigame.
even more so now it seems
they sold a framework for 70-100 bucks
a barebones "game" with minimal effort
and are riding the "mods will fix it" wave like never before
They fired the Skyrim music guy because some woman made up a story how he sexually assaulted her (never filed for charges, never corroborated, impossible to prove)
>Bethesda music
You mean Soule music, they don’t work with him anymore cause they want their games to be as shit as possible since FO4
the "music" in every game since fallout 4 is just ass, its just "boomb zschh" and shit
no epic theme
nothing like morrowind, oblivion and skyrim where you instantly know the theme after 3 seconds
the main theme is more than enough?
the overworld music
combat music
it's all memorable
compared to the atmosphere jingles starfield has
i sometimes think i've heard the same kind of soundeffect in fallout 4, literally 1:1
I like the Starfield theme and it's recognizable as fuck.
I don't know, at this point it's like you guys are just hating for hate's sake.
The game has its flaws, but you can't deny that it has it peaks too and that some things are very well made.
I find it much more enjoyable and varied than Cyberpunk for example, and definitely more enjoyable than Outer Worlds, and it'll only get better with expansions/mods.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>recognizable
meh to me it's very similar to fallout 4s
i for one don't like the game as a whole because it has so many negatives
there are bugs in this game that have been a staple of creation engine since skyrim and they have not gotten fixed
the content is lackluster, the dialogue is just bad compared to previous bethesda games, the performance is just not on par on what it should be
i just wanted more
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Totally organic post great job
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>no arguemnts
so you're just itt to argue
gotcha
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Make a comment worth arguing over 😉
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>the content is lackluster, the dialogue is just bad compared to previous bethesda games, the performance is just not on par on what it should be
i just wanted more
I've felt this way about their games since Fallout 3 (and still enjoyed them all), so I guess I'm past that.
To me it feels like hell of improvement over F4 while being fairly similar, and I also like the general space nerd sci-fi theme and design of it a lot. Not being a part of Fallout universe which they have been methodically ruining since acquiring rights to also helps.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
i just... dunno i think i just wanted nms but done by bethesda
thought they'd get inspiration from older star trek or something
i'd be down for some easter eggs to other games, fallout aliens somewhere, or a planet which gives some doom vibes or i dunno
something cool besides what we got
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
You make no sense
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I would also prefer Starfield to be my dream game and have Elite: Dangerous tier spaceshit and living economy on top of TES: Oblivion scaled 100000%, but that's just wishful thinking unfortunately. I'd say the game they got is pretty strong and will only get better with time. I hope they listen and add in-system travel w/o menus at least, would have been rad. Not even talking about vehicles and in-suit spaceflight which is apparently already in the game but disabled. It's clear that they just didn't manage to add it in time.
That they changed the formula is the problem, I don't know why people are saying in both defense and criticism it's just [other bethesda game] and that we should have expected it, it's got none of what makes bethesdas games special, the NPCs are neutered to shit
the formula works. there's enough novelty and scripted events to last for half a playthrough which is enough for the average normie to leave a positive review
Biggest flaw is the boring setting and no interesting characters. Everything feels so bland with its storytelling and stilted dialogue. The whole Starborn thing feels such a retread of Dragonborn but with N+ tacked on. Very lazy.
It is extremely lazy >oh here's some people praying to a snake? >yeah nah you'll never see it
I want to land on a planet, be greeted by females they tell me they kill all males because stuff happened, if my PC is male i get imprisoned with some other males and i get to choose to start a riot. If my PC is female i get to talk to the queen and do shit
NPCs keep buying their games. There's 0 incentive for them to make something actually good. They will keep releasing mediocre, unoptimised and buggy dumpster fires as long as it's profitable.
it was easy sailing when you were the only big name in town known for making huge open world rpgs and open world games in general. now when every game is open world and you're not so special, your legacy has been surpassed multiple times the only thing left is to reinvent the wheel but bethesda doesn't have the will or power to do it. the next big frontier for vidya will be AI and if they don't implement some groundbreaking tech into next TES it will be all over for todd.
The thing is, nobody has surpassed them yet still even though they've been degrading since Oblivion. Witcher 3 might be a contender, but it's more of an Asscreed game than what Bethesda does.
>fallout 76 >a game that was literally unplayable for few years >a game that had pay to win elements in it >a game that was a complete flop in all regards >a game that is almost completely dead >a game that is still rife with bugs and server issues >75% positive on steam
It's almost like steam reviews don't mean shit, OP. Starfield is a massive success and you're just going to have to cope with it.
>a game that was a complete flop in all regards >a game that is almost completely dead
Apparently it's a huge moneymaker for Bethesda, I was just as surprised as anyone else
I would play fallout 76 over starfield anyday. They are equal in quality, but at least fallout 76 let me play with friends.
This tb, and unironically. At least it's unpretentious and has a big hand-crafter overworld you can actually traverse
>die
Lmao, this is the "new" type of game. Sandbox games created with asian outsourcing with questionable everything. CDPR were really the first to attempt to try and seize this new type of game and failed utterly. Now there's starfield
No I think starfield is here to stay because, well, nobody else can afford to make games anymore
People said the same about Bioware. Look where they are now. A company unwilling to improve ends up like them. Funny enough ME andromeda and Starfield have a lot in common.
>unwilling to improve
Starfield is a new genre of game whether you like it or not, it is a monumental feat in the industry >but it's just skyrim in space
exactly, nobody will ever be able to make a game of starfield's scale, just like skyrim, it is the "forever game" genre
They really don't need to update the formula, a lot of people like the sense that you drop into the world and you get to more or less play whatever type of character you want. They're perfectly generic in that regard.
The tech is what people really need to see get a revamp. They need new software, they need new staff.
never ever, not with consoles. Not with every AAA dev using sweat shops to make their games.
AAA gaming is dead and starfield is the best game that will probably be made in the next decade with how things are going (and that's not a good thing)
Bethesda never made and never will make a good game.
People only like their TES and Fallouts because retards were, and still are, easily impressed by open worlds. Every single one of Bethesda's have shit gameplay and are poorly coded. It shouldn't have taken up until Starfield for people to realize Bethesda is incompetent. >b-but mods
If a game needs fan made mods to be good then it was never a good game in the first place.
They dont need to change the formula. They just need to make another skyrim. And I am not talking about re-releasing skyrim for 20th time. Its that simple.
They do, because Bethesda doesn't exist in a vacuum, no matter how ignorant their fanboys are. They will look hopelessly outdated to the competition if nothing is done. Witcher 4 will once again mog Bethesda if they just put out a clunky Skyrim 2. Baldur's Gate 3 is beating Starfield this year.
>LGBTQicher 4
lol no
Is this supposed to be an own in a thread about a game with pronoun selection?
point is both are/will be woke shit
Now describe Bethesda's next game.
>Baldur's Gate 3 is beating Starfield this year.
not even the same sort of game. BG3 is an interactive homo porn movie interspersed with slow RNG table top dice & card "combat". Starfield is a very flawed FPS action game akin to the Farcry games but with far more potential.
You didn’t even try with this one, here’s a pity (You) anyway
He's effortlessly right
Do you think there is homosexual stuff in Starfield?
Yes there is & that means homos will always exist. Starfield is very flawed & to a point BG3 does actually deserve a GOTY award more than Starfield as BG3 did deliver what hat was expected, it hasn't got complaints from ppl who play it (for the most part tho ppl still have complaints). I am a realist who see things for what they are. The 7 out of 10, 70% score is accurate for Starfield & yet I like the game despite knowing it is very flawed, was poorly written & the modders have already got to work fast to fix the things that should have been done.
YOU MEAN TRANNIES MASS SEETHING
we are no anymore in an age where people paly games to paly
they want movies where fascism is bad.
I miss the Great One (Adolf Hitler) so goddamn much bros..
>you just have to play 12h and wave away your refund right bro
>you have to go to NG+++ where the real fun starts bro
>you have to complete the main quest to get all the fun stuff bro
>you have to follow X specific path to enjoy the game bro
>you have to play this RPG for longer than an hour to experience the systems in it
yes, you do actually
>toddfags have so much in common with fromdrones
>PLEASE TAKE THE 5 MINUTE PLAYTIME REVIEWS SERIOUSLY, MY FUCKING NARRATIVE DEPENDS ON IT
What? I didn't hear you.
now filter out CCP bots
>only keep the one-sentence reddit reviews from America to have an accurate score
You're not even pretending anymore.
half of the reviews are just chuds seething at morons in the game.
>they want movies where fascism is bad
pretty sure all whites are eradicated in Goyfield
No, because it worked for
>Oblivion
>FO3
>New Vegas
>Skyrim
>FO4
Bethesda has made the same product for decades now which can safely generate a massive pile of money. I blame the fans for being a bunch of dribbling retards who're happy to play the exact same game until they die
They had no competitors back then.
You could get away with more back then too.
Nah this is their best base game since morrowind
good morning sir
Bethesda didn't make new vegas, it's pretty obvious because it's the only good game in the list
This
Just give us Fallout 3 remastered in the Starfield engine
The problem with Ben Fallout isn't the engine, it's the art style
no id argue is the engine, it really does feel like I've played this shit before because of the engine, feels like a FO skin
it's actually pretty impressive they've managed to makle large cities that you can leave without a loading screen with physics objects, that said their work around was to have a SSD required loading screen every 10 feet because consoles can't handle the game
alright point given, yet perhaps im too picky but, the sounds, the physics, the terrain generation, some aspects of the UI, I do feel deja vu playing it, give it a try and open the scaner, its the same sound effect as the pip boy
I like the art style in starfield more, myself.
>casually leaving morrowshit out
New Vegas was developed by Obsidian and published by Bethesda.
It's been 12 years since skyrim we're overdue for TES6, bethesda sucks at gun games and that's all they've made since.
That's not the original version of Skyrim that is at 95%
And I'm pretty sure I remember Fallout 4 being at "mixed" for a long time.
Starfield is a game that'll have a sustained, long term success, like all Bethesda RPGs. Those 77% are just from the first batch of buyers that always includes the usual retards who complain about stupid shit.
yea games poor performance poor rpg mechanics and lackluster shooting terrible AI is just stupid shit huh?
You didn't even play it
not that anon but
>game por perrformance
created with the presently released bethesdashite.engine
>poor RPG mechanics
terrible traits, skills and such, I'm level 10 and have not spend a single skill point as I don't see the point of it, no considerable improvement by choosing a skill
>lackluster shotting
truly is
>terrible AI
this doesn't even go just for followers, but the enemies are so fucking retarded also
Clearly haven't played it
I mean compared to actual trash like cyberpunk it's better in every way except the loading, but even cyberpunk couldn't have too many scripted ride alongs because it was so janky at launch
Cyberpunk is 100x better written, better characters, better performance and graphics, the combat and gunplay is like 1000x better than this boring fucking starfield shit. It has actual builds and rpg elements. In what fucking NG+ universe do you live where this shitgame is better than cp77? And 2.0 will be even better.
>yea games poor performance poor rpg mechanics and lackluster shooting terrible AI is just stupid shit huh?
No, those are valid complaints. But Skyrim and Fallout 4 already had poor RPG mechanics and the shooting and general gunfights are far better in Starfield that in any previous Bethesda games involving gunfights.
>and general gunfights are far better in Starfield that in any previous Bethesda games involving gunfights.
thats wrong. far less weapons than fo4 and the AI is straight up worse than fo4. leading to very easy and lame gunfights. less interesting monsters to fight too.
It’s better (way more stable) than FO4 was at launch. It’s just the completely soulless writing that kills me more than anything else
>It’s just the completely soulless writing
I agree, that's the biggest flaw of the game to me too.
It really feels corporate and sanitized. I could honestly look past all of the other problems if the side content and characters were actually well written
>Skyrim 95%.
>Fallout 4 88%.
>Starfield 77%.
>Elder Scrolls VI WTF%
77% and rising 🙂
it's actually 72.8%
https://steamdb.info/app/1716740/
is been 82 on release
Feels like a ps3 game with the amount of loading screens
>Feels like a ps3 game with the amount of loading screens
This. The last time I spent so much in loading screens was playing Destiny 1 on PS3
Why bother? People will still play it
>Won't they change the formula?
They changed it for worse for Starfield. Replaced carefully handcrafted world with procedural generated empty boxes, replaced memorable characters with faceless bots, and replaced the adventure with glorified Fast Travel loading screen minigame.
Its the blatant lying of "we optimized it just haha!"
And the lack of content of this game
its the ui
the piss poor performance
the reddit tier dialogue
the crappy enemies
the tacked on space arcade game
none of it feels fleshed out
>none of it feels fleshed out
thats been their motto for about a decade
even more so now it seems
they sold a framework for 70-100 bucks
a barebones "game" with minimal effort
and are riding the "mods will fix it" wave like never before
When will Bethesda get their facial animation on the level of Half-Life 2 (2004)?
Just makes her look even older
It is a general thing nonetheless. They don't squint their eyes in a smile.
Todd only gets the smiles on the right of your image, so he doesn't know any better.
Why change formula when morons keep buying it? They know it failed on goypass tho, with only a small amount of new subscribers.
>Skyrim 95%.
Still amazed how that happened. probably simple bethesda bonus back then
where is the bethesda music? i have not heard any good scores since skyrim
its always just random sound effects and atmosphere
They fired the Skyrim music guy because some woman made up a story how he sexually assaulted her (never filed for charges, never corroborated, impossible to prove)
lmao what the hell?
the "music" in every game since fallout 4 is just ass, its just "boomb zschh" and shit
no epic theme
nothing like morrowind, oblivion and skyrim where you instantly know the theme after 3 seconds
Name 1 memorable track from Soules' works aside from main theme.
All Skyrim's ambiance tracks are instantly recognizable and have millions of views on YouTube, Zurtard
the main theme is more than enough?
the overworld music
combat music
it's all memorable
compared to the atmosphere jingles starfield has
i sometimes think i've heard the same kind of soundeffect in fallout 4, literally 1:1
I like the Starfield theme and it's recognizable as fuck.
I don't know, at this point it's like you guys are just hating for hate's sake.
The game has its flaws, but you can't deny that it has it peaks too and that some things are very well made.
I find it much more enjoyable and varied than Cyberpunk for example, and definitely more enjoyable than Outer Worlds, and it'll only get better with expansions/mods.
>recognizable
meh to me it's very similar to fallout 4s
i for one don't like the game as a whole because it has so many negatives
there are bugs in this game that have been a staple of creation engine since skyrim and they have not gotten fixed
the content is lackluster, the dialogue is just bad compared to previous bethesda games, the performance is just not on par on what it should be
i just wanted more
Totally organic post great job
>no arguemnts
so you're just itt to argue
gotcha
Make a comment worth arguing over 😉
>the content is lackluster, the dialogue is just bad compared to previous bethesda games, the performance is just not on par on what it should be
i just wanted more
I've felt this way about their games since Fallout 3 (and still enjoyed them all), so I guess I'm past that.
To me it feels like hell of improvement over F4 while being fairly similar, and I also like the general space nerd sci-fi theme and design of it a lot. Not being a part of Fallout universe which they have been methodically ruining since acquiring rights to also helps.
i just... dunno i think i just wanted nms but done by bethesda
thought they'd get inspiration from older star trek or something
i'd be down for some easter eggs to other games, fallout aliens somewhere, or a planet which gives some doom vibes or i dunno
something cool besides what we got
You make no sense
I would also prefer Starfield to be my dream game and have Elite: Dangerous tier spaceshit and living economy on top of TES: Oblivion scaled 100000%, but that's just wishful thinking unfortunately. I'd say the game they got is pretty strong and will only get better with time. I hope they listen and add in-system travel w/o menus at least, would have been rad. Not even talking about vehicles and in-suit spaceflight which is apparently already in the game but disabled. It's clear that they just didn't manage to add it in time.
>Bethesda music
You mean Soule music, they don’t work with him anymore cause they want their games to be as shit as possible since FO4
Starfield OST is pure bliss though, might be Inon's best yet, and I usually don't give a shit about his music. Reminds me of BBC documentaries.
?si=JQZXbP9tI_8Nup0V
It has literally no soul at all
*no Soule at all
Iseewhatyoudidthere
That they changed the formula is the problem, I don't know why people are saying in both defense and criticism it's just [other bethesda game] and that we should have expected it, it's got none of what makes bethesdas games special, the NPCs are neutered to shit
>oblivion OST 5.8million views
>starfield OST 350k views
Kwab
starfield ost is just fallout 4 ost
Are normies going to ever notice how much outsourcing was done or are they too far gone for that
Normal people don't really care
the formula works. there's enough novelty and scripted events to last for half a playthrough which is enough for the average normie to leave a positive review
Biggest flaw is the boring setting and no interesting characters. Everything feels so bland with its storytelling and stilted dialogue. The whole Starborn thing feels such a retread of Dragonborn but with N+ tacked on. Very lazy.
It is extremely lazy
>oh here's some people praying to a snake?
>yeah nah you'll never see it
I want to land on a planet, be greeted by females they tell me they kill all males because stuff happened, if my PC is male i get imprisoned with some other males and i get to choose to start a riot. If my PC is female i get to talk to the queen and do shit
Like come on give us some weird space shit
If you don't like their games why don't you just play God of War or The Last of Us and leave us real gamers alone?
NPCs keep buying their games. There's 0 incentive for them to make something actually good. They will keep releasing mediocre, unoptimised and buggy dumpster fires as long as it's profitable.
It's just insane looking how far the industry has fallen and yet its the consumer that's allowing it to continue.
>NOOOOOO! PEOPLE ENJOYING THINGS!!!
it was easy sailing when you were the only big name in town known for making huge open world rpgs and open world games in general. now when every game is open world and you're not so special, your legacy has been surpassed multiple times the only thing left is to reinvent the wheel but bethesda doesn't have the will or power to do it. the next big frontier for vidya will be AI and if they don't implement some groundbreaking tech into next TES it will be all over for todd.
The thing is, nobody has surpassed them yet still even though they've been degrading since Oblivion. Witcher 3 might be a contender, but it's more of an Asscreed game than what Bethesda does.
Everyone has surpass them. Even the asscred series.
bethesda cannot even get switch placement right so idk why you'd think they're capable of "changing their formula"
imagine being too dumb to play Bethesda RPG.
imagine having a visual cortex that fixates on random shit
If they don't fire Emil immediately then they will never make a good game again
>fallout 76
>a game that was literally unplayable for few years
>a game that had pay to win elements in it
>a game that was a complete flop in all regards
>a game that is almost completely dead
>a game that is still rife with bugs and server issues
>75% positive on steam
It's almost like steam reviews don't mean shit, OP. Starfield is a massive success and you're just going to have to cope with it.
I would play fallout 76 over starfield anyday. They are equal in quality, but at least fallout 76 let me play with friends.
Why would you play either?
>a game that was a complete flop in all regards
>a game that is almost completely dead
Apparently it's a huge moneymaker for Bethesda, I was just as surprised as anyone else
This tb, and unironically. At least it's unpretentious and has a big hand-crafter overworld you can actually traverse
They won't change. They will just die. Microsoft is going to fire most employees and just keep the names. Too many failures for Todd.
>die
Lmao, this is the "new" type of game. Sandbox games created with asian outsourcing with questionable everything. CDPR were really the first to attempt to try and seize this new type of game and failed utterly. Now there's starfield
No I think starfield is here to stay because, well, nobody else can afford to make games anymore
People said the same about Bioware. Look where they are now. A company unwilling to improve ends up like them. Funny enough ME andromeda and Starfield have a lot in common.
>unwilling to improve
Starfield is a new genre of game whether you like it or not, it is a monumental feat in the industry
>but it's just skyrim in space
exactly, nobody will ever be able to make a game of starfield's scale, just like skyrim, it is the "forever game" genre
Ok, you are just pretending to be a retard.
can't even respond
what an aspie
Maybe you should try to engage in the discussion honestly and not pretending to be retarded.
can't even respond
what an aspie
>this is the "new" type of game
This is beyond delusional dude.
This game is so fucking mediocre, it's depressing. Unquestionably un-evolved.
They really don't need to update the formula, a lot of people like the sense that you drop into the world and you get to more or less play whatever type of character you want. They're perfectly generic in that regard.
The tech is what people really need to see get a revamp. They need new software, they need new staff.
never ever, not with consoles. Not with every AAA dev using sweat shops to make their games.
AAA gaming is dead and starfield is the best game that will probably be made in the next decade with how things are going (and that's not a good thing)
Bethesda never made and never will make a good game.
People only like their TES and Fallouts because retards were, and still are, easily impressed by open worlds. Every single one of Bethesda's have shit gameplay and are poorly coded. It shouldn't have taken up until Starfield for people to realize Bethesda is incompetent.
>b-but mods
If a game needs fan made mods to be good then it was never a good game in the first place.
I think if the performance wasnt this bad the game would have a more easier time for people to enjoy it
yeah, they had to neuter it for consoles
I think they’ll have to, gaming has moved on from the old bethesda formula