>My morals are superior because I can beat you in a fight
- Every JRPG ever. Why can't we have one, JUST ONE, JRPG where you can defeat the boss with sound reasoning and logical argument like Saren in Mass Effect 1. Persona 5 would have been perfect for it.
Because the antagonists reasoning is just plain stupid or evil and when it isn't it's crap like the antagonist is immortal and will suffer forever unless everyone else dies or suffers forever.
>Persona 5 would have been perfect for it
If you had no idea what P5 was actually about, then sure
The idea that any of these characters would've tried to solve anything with debate is absolutely laughable, and the fact that Akira actually tried to justify himself to children in Strikers makes that game just as laughable
Because then they wouldn't be the boss, they'd be a mook or even an ally character to be recruited. The antagonist is someone who is so sure of their own reasoning that they're willing to antagonize the player in pursuit of seeing it through to the end. Considering the scale most of these JRPGs go to, it would have been bad writing to do anything else. Someone unsure enough of their convictions to be talked down from their goal wouldn't have gotten as far as typical JRPG villains tend to do. Shido wouldn't have gotten as far as he had if he could have simply been talked down from his stance.
You miss two things about Saren. One, he wasn't the true antagonist of the game. Sovereign was. He was pulling Saren's strings the entire time. Saren was essentially following orders, rather than actively pursuing an ideal. Sure, he was motivated by something perfectly understandable, but he was not even the star of his own story. Two, Saren had every reason to have his doubts in his role. He had been close to Sovereign the whole game, seen first hand how he operated, what kind of effect he had on the mind, and even felt those effects himself. It was really easy to plant the seed of doubt into his mind, because he knew already that he was likely being manipulated to begin with. Most JRPG villains don't have that kind of position, and the few that do... Well, they often end up just like Saren. Which is to say, even if they could be talked down from their position, the actual antagonist would just mindjack them and then you fight them anyways.
Ultimately it comes down to the moral many of these stories try to convey. Which is that, sometimes, not everything can be settled with words. There will be people who won't stop no matter how much you try to reason with them, and there will be people who try to stop those people no matter how much they're reasoned with. It's a universal truth.
Because might makes right is literally how the world must work unless you believe in a higher power, which most Japs and a growing number of westoids don't. Even then, technically that still is might makes right.
P5 only attracts midwits though, so it's not like the game really goes in depth to actually understanding the implications of brainwashing "bad" people to "fix" them.
P5 cast is overall completely irresponsible and clueless about what they're doing. The fact that their childish shenanigans somehow ended up defeating God and saving the world is just moronic jap writing.
In Rise's defense the game is just nudging you towards a particular love interest if you haven't been pursuing one. There's nothing wrong with somebody having a crush on the hero, is there?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>There's nothing wrong with somebody having a crush on the hero, is there?
It is when it's incongruous with the player's own decisions. You start the game at bottom tier charm levels, but even if you don't level it a bit and pick all the moron options you still have the school considering you a chad and Rise wanting to hop on your dick all game long with forced mandatory cutscenes if you take the true ending path. Or if you have already started dating someone, there's no option to tell her to just be friends, so again you get those same forced mandatory cutscenes with her when you just want to spend more time with your own girl.
This is the worst part of Persona's system, and this applies to P3 and P5 as well. They want you to self-insert and make your own choices but don't actually bother putting in the effort to make the writing, even the most minor details, actually reflect your decisions. Stuff like Rise would make sense if the protag was an actual character like Ringo or Arena Yu, but you're not so it falls apart.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I will admit I always hated how your social link progress was never acknowledged in the story. You have a point.
Almost everyone shits on Joker before they join, and Makoto steals the main character spot after she joins. The only character who sucks Joker as much as the P4 cast sucked Yu was Haru, and that's because she had no personality so that was the only way to make the players care about her.
The only time P5 gets to P4 levels of dicksucking is at the very end of P5S when everyone gets their "yeah go kick the final bosses ass Joker!" lines, and that's the very end of a spinoff sequel.
The absolute midwit filter. Anyone who actually did play the games would know it is different, Tony Stark is distorting people's hearts, literally creating smaller versions of the demiurge's prison to trap them. The Phantom Thieves remove the distortion from people's hearts returning them to how they should be.
Even in the original game the PT are not confident about their methods and while they are removing the distortion in people's hearts they just go back to the same prison where their hearts were distorted in the first place. The reason the PT are able to defeat the demiurge, Yaldabaoth, is because of social links the true power to change people's hearts.
>returning them to how they should be
The first thing they did nearly drove someone to suicide because they escalated his guilt about inappropriately touching a girl.
This is more because they were particularly distorted individuals. Sae and Futaba and all the sidequest individuals just went back to normal. Shido and the other villains were too far gone.
Nah, they function the same, but you never get as close to the characters as you did with social links, or literally repair their lives like some of P3 and P4 s-links, the most you get is the characters realizing you're criminals and are like "You're cool, so I won't rat you out"
2 years ago
Anonymous
Anon, you're just flat out wrong. Don't know what to tell you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Anon, you're just flat out wrong. Don't know what to tell you.
They're depressed blobs because they were buttholes ridden with guilt after being forced to face what they did. Futaba wasn't a depressed blob afterwards because she had nothing to feel guilty about.
>Tony Stark is distorting people's hearts, literally creating smaller versions of the demiurge's prison to trap them.
To be fair, he probably thought he was in charge when he was almost as much of a victim/prisoner as everyone else.
if anything, the autistic science lady just walking off scot free into the sunset was the dumbest part.
The Phantom Thieves are turning the most twisted individuals into what amounts to different people, then making those good people receive punishment for their previous selves.
>Anyone who actually did play the games would know it is different
Obviously, but most personagays either have IQ so low they don't even understand the shitty plots of their own games or like intentionally acting moronic so they think it isn't different.
The entire game's premise is a fricking app corrupting people's hearts and desires, the PT get dragged in and then undo that shit. How do people still fall for this fricking bait? The first boss gets befriended by Ann after beating her to show how the plot structure will go.
Arguing about morals is pointless. People will argue anything is moral, even fricking kids like vaush does. If your moral system requires arguments to be valid then you have already lost. You need an uncompromising moral code and you must punish those who break it, else degenerates will take power and assert their moral code over you.
The PTs never object to other people changing people's hearts, they just just object to the ends others are trying to achieve by changing people's hearts.
It's the best Musou I've played outside of Sengoku Basara. I have never played P5 itself and never will.
honestly P5 probably has the most unlikable party in the series
I mostly enjoyed the group outside of Morgana but I do think Sophie and Zenkichi were top tier and they were the characters made specifically for Strikers so maybe you're right.
He actually has a backstory where his father beats him and his mom up constantly and eventually he ends up killing the mother, so he kills his own father in retaliation, then lied to police and said a burglar killed both. This happened when his favorite tokusatsu show was on the TV at he's obsessed with justice outside the law and wants to control people to end violent crime. After the events of the game he surrenders to the police.
Ultimately there's a twist villain at the end who is way less sympathetic (sociopath femcel tries to make AI to understand human emotion, gets mad that it makes her feel human emotion) but didn't get any consequences because she resolves to be a better person.
>try to play this game (i had already beaten royal and vanilla) >find the PT's dialogue horrible >try to play just for the gameplay >playing on hard, every palace is the same thing, with 1 or 2 gimmicks here and there.
The most fun character is one you get midway through. Until then, realize Haru has Nero Combo B and eventually gets the ability to dump massive AoE Gun damage and never let her out of your party. Yusuke is fun too if you get his timings down.
the gameplay of the characters is cool, i like their combos, i myself like using Yosuke because i was a huge Vergil fan, it's just the palaces that tired me out.
>so when you punch bad guys who are hurting people it's right but when I punch literally everyone then it's wrong?
Easiest way to make a """""""""""morally complex""""""""""" RPG villain that will dupe every midwit in existence, many such cases.
No, because Raiden has been fighting his entire life. He can't survive without being mightier than his enemies. It's what he wants to do with his might that's the difference between the two.
Technically it proves him right- Raiden was stronger than Armstrong, so Raiden gets to decide the his vision of the world will at the very least temporarily prevail over Armstrongs.
Armstrong is right though, and Raiden agrees. It's why he actually splits off from Maverick for real in the end to fight his own war, picking up where Sam left off. They weren't exactly being subtle with it.
The point of Revengeance is that Raiden and Armstrong have a similar philosophy with nearly opposite execution on them. Also Armstrong literally says the spirit of his beliefs lives on with Raiden as his heart is ripped out of his chest. They both believe in using personal strength to affect the world and bring down the corrupt systems in it, Armstrong just wanted to tear it down from within and salt the earth in the idea of actual government so might could make right in every single instance while Raiden wants to use his power to protect people and change the system from outside of it.
Armstrong thinks being strong and enforcing your will on others is morally correct. Raider thinks you need to be strong to protect others weaker than you and stop shitheads like Armstrong from taking over. One sword keeps the other in its sheathe.
I still don't know what P5 tried to tell, all the story was about beating villain of the week tier guys and lobotomize them in the name of "we are 15yo kids and frick adults". No to talk about the side missions, where the "bad deeds" of the adults were a million times more stupid.
The story was such a moronic childish shit in general that I don't know why this of all jrpg and even persona was the one to get this popular and have extremely good critics.
>No to talk about the side missions, where the "bad deeds" of the adults were a million times more stupid.
P5 is a perfect example of "basing your writing off real life is a bad idea because real life humans are infinitely stupider than the schlockiest fiction you can think of."
Konoe wasn’t in the right but the muh freedoms argument doesn’t really hold water since the PT’s only tactic is forceful ego death. Even people who are receptive to criticism and could have their minds changed naturally still get brainwashed like Haru’s mentor.
Meanwhile in the franchise Persona constantly takes ideas from >also a story about teenagers taking down corrupt figures >unlike persona 5 the main group's goal is understandable and just, no homosexual political reasons for their endeavours and instead they have a universally respected moral goal
Atlus should have just made a Golden Wind RPG
Why do people here like to act as if the PT targets were all innocent and didn't deserve it?
The first act is meant solely to show how Kamoshida was not only a massive piece of shit that abused and raped his students, he could also get away with it since the same institution that was meant to protect the students was protecting him instead. They had no other way to protect themselves and make him face justice, and even then it's still treated as a massive decision that they are never sure about.
>My morals are superior because I can beat you in a fight
- Every JRPG ever. Why can't we have one, JUST ONE, JRPG where you can defeat the boss with sound reasoning and logical argument like Saren in Mass Effect 1. Persona 5 would have been perfect for it.
Because the antagonists reasoning is just plain stupid or evil and when it isn't it's crap like the antagonist is immortal and will suffer forever unless everyone else dies or suffers forever.
but multiple P5 antagonists are in the right
Because the purpose of the game is the gameplay
The gameplay sucks
Ok Fortgay
>My morals are superior because I can beat you in a fight
Explain how this is wrong
*beats you in a fight* its wrong
>proves me right
> trudeau is actually a lesbian anime girl
Might makes right
>My morals are superior because I can beat you in a fight
Yes thats how the world works
Cuckservatives have this believe that “truth” and “good” always wins. The reality is that “truth” and “good” is defined by the victor
>Persona 5 would have been perfect for it.
Persona 5 would have been perfect if it has not absolute garbage writing, yes.
>Persona 5 would have been perfect for it
If you had no idea what P5 was actually about, then sure
The idea that any of these characters would've tried to solve anything with debate is absolutely laughable, and the fact that Akira actually tried to justify himself to children in Strikers makes that game just as laughable
Because then they wouldn't be the boss, they'd be a mook or even an ally character to be recruited. The antagonist is someone who is so sure of their own reasoning that they're willing to antagonize the player in pursuit of seeing it through to the end. Considering the scale most of these JRPGs go to, it would have been bad writing to do anything else. Someone unsure enough of their convictions to be talked down from their goal wouldn't have gotten as far as typical JRPG villains tend to do. Shido wouldn't have gotten as far as he had if he could have simply been talked down from his stance.
You miss two things about Saren. One, he wasn't the true antagonist of the game. Sovereign was. He was pulling Saren's strings the entire time. Saren was essentially following orders, rather than actively pursuing an ideal. Sure, he was motivated by something perfectly understandable, but he was not even the star of his own story. Two, Saren had every reason to have his doubts in his role. He had been close to Sovereign the whole game, seen first hand how he operated, what kind of effect he had on the mind, and even felt those effects himself. It was really easy to plant the seed of doubt into his mind, because he knew already that he was likely being manipulated to begin with. Most JRPG villains don't have that kind of position, and the few that do... Well, they often end up just like Saren. Which is to say, even if they could be talked down from their position, the actual antagonist would just mindjack them and then you fight them anyways.
Ultimately it comes down to the moral many of these stories try to convey. Which is that, sometimes, not everything can be settled with words. There will be people who won't stop no matter how much you try to reason with them, and there will be people who try to stop those people no matter how much they're reasoned with. It's a universal truth.
USA wouldn't be "the morally right" world police without its military might
violence, or even the threat of violence is absolute.
Because might makes right is literally how the world must work unless you believe in a higher power, which most Japs and a growing number of westoids don't. Even then, technically that still is might makes right.
P5 only attracts midwits though, so it's not like the game really goes in depth to actually understanding the implications of brainwashing "bad" people to "fix" them.
bump
But they do in this game, strikers has good writing. They say they don't have the moral high ground and don't know what justice is.
Aegis wishes she was Sophie
P5's writing is just too dumb and the MC too self insert-y and shallow for this to work.
>If east is west then west is east
(Speech 100)
>Woah that's deep I guess we'll leave the wasteland alone
Bakana... So this is the chikara... Of western RPG writint
>My morals are superior because I can beat you in a fight
I enjoyed this game more than Royal's new shit
which game
P5 cast is overall completely irresponsible and clueless about what they're doing. The fact that their childish shenanigans somehow ended up defeating God and saving the world is just moronic jap writing.
honestly P5 probably has the most unlikable party in the series
Just because they don't suck your tiny dick as hard as P4 doesn't mean they are unlikable.
I don't like the 4 party either
they don't?
P5 cast sucks Joker dick x10 mores than Yu.
not when characters like Rise exists
In Rise's defense the game is just nudging you towards a particular love interest if you haven't been pursuing one. There's nothing wrong with somebody having a crush on the hero, is there?
>There's nothing wrong with somebody having a crush on the hero, is there?
It is when it's incongruous with the player's own decisions. You start the game at bottom tier charm levels, but even if you don't level it a bit and pick all the moron options you still have the school considering you a chad and Rise wanting to hop on your dick all game long with forced mandatory cutscenes if you take the true ending path. Or if you have already started dating someone, there's no option to tell her to just be friends, so again you get those same forced mandatory cutscenes with her when you just want to spend more time with your own girl.
This is the worst part of Persona's system, and this applies to P3 and P5 as well. They want you to self-insert and make your own choices but don't actually bother putting in the effort to make the writing, even the most minor details, actually reflect your decisions. Stuff like Rise would make sense if the protag was an actual character like Ringo or Arena Yu, but you're not so it falls apart.
I will admit I always hated how your social link progress was never acknowledged in the story. You have a point.
Almost everyone shits on Joker before they join, and Makoto steals the main character spot after she joins. The only character who sucks Joker as much as the P4 cast sucked Yu was Haru, and that's because she had no personality so that was the only way to make the players care about her.
The only time P5 gets to P4 levels of dicksucking is at the very end of P5S when everyone gets their "yeah go kick the final bosses ass Joker!" lines, and that's the very end of a spinoff sequel.
why do people always believe its lmao THE god?
a lot of people on Ganker are legitimately too stupid for a game written for japanese teenagers.
>Yeschadface.jpg
now frick off, Downey.
The absolute midwit filter. Anyone who actually did play the games would know it is different, Tony Stark is distorting people's hearts, literally creating smaller versions of the demiurge's prison to trap them. The Phantom Thieves remove the distortion from people's hearts returning them to how they should be.
Even in the original game the PT are not confident about their methods and while they are removing the distortion in people's hearts they just go back to the same prison where their hearts were distorted in the first place. The reason the PT are able to defeat the demiurge, Yaldabaoth, is because of social links the true power to change people's hearts.
>returning them to how they should be
The first thing they did nearly drove someone to suicide because they escalated his guilt about inappropriately touching a girl.
Every main villain in P5 became a lobotomized depressed blob after the phantom thieves touched them.
This is more because they were particularly distorted individuals. Sae and Futaba and all the sidequest individuals just went back to normal. Shido and the other villains were too far gone.
They never mindfricked Sae
They social linked her instead
There no s-links in P5.
Confidants are literally Social Links.
Nah, they function the same, but you never get as close to the characters as you did with social links, or literally repair their lives like some of P3 and P4 s-links, the most you get is the characters realizing you're criminals and are like "You're cool, so I won't rat you out"
Anon, you're just flat out wrong. Don't know what to tell you.
You need to fight to see who's right
It could be that the game has shit writing.
All of the main villains deserve it. Mementos targets...
The Mementos Targets don't break down because they only have a minor distortion.
They're still being brainwashed.
They're being unbrainwashed
They're depressed blobs because they were buttholes ridden with guilt after being forced to face what they did. Futaba wasn't a depressed blob afterwards because she had nothing to feel guilty about.
Frick off, Joker. You're not better than me
>Tony Stark is distorting people's hearts, literally creating smaller versions of the demiurge's prison to trap them.
To be fair, he probably thought he was in charge when he was almost as much of a victim/prisoner as everyone else.
if anything, the autistic science lady just walking off scot free into the sunset was the dumbest part.
What was so dumb about it?
>I tried turning myself in but they didn't believe my story about being a tech-sorcereress minion of the demiurge
The Phantom Thieves are turning the most twisted individuals into what amounts to different people, then making those good people receive punishment for their previous selves.
>Anyone who actually did play the games would know it is different
Obviously, but most personagays either have IQ so low they don't even understand the shitty plots of their own games or like intentionally acting moronic so they think it isn't different.
persona 5 has a dogshit story just enjoy the rest
The entire game's premise is a fricking app corrupting people's hearts and desires, the PT get dragged in and then undo that shit. How do people still fall for this fricking bait? The first boss gets befriended by Ann after beating her to show how the plot structure will go.
Arguing about morals is pointless. People will argue anything is moral, even fricking kids like vaush does. If your moral system requires arguments to be valid then you have already lost. You need an uncompromising moral code and you must punish those who break it, else degenerates will take power and assert their moral code over you.
Joker lost here.
The PTs never object to other people changing people's hearts, they just just object to the ends others are trying to achieve by changing people's hearts.
I can't believe this game isn't hated by the community
It's the best Musou I've played outside of Sengoku Basara. I have never played P5 itself and never will.
I mostly enjoyed the group outside of Morgana but I do think Sophie and Zenkichi were top tier and they were the characters made specifically for Strikers so maybe you're right.
Sophie only exists to get otakus to buy merchandise
Yeah but she's still a fun character and her Persona Awakening was 200% kino.
she's even worse than morgana
Impossible. She's useful.
I ended up hanging out with Ann as much as possible solely to feel like I was cucking Morgana.
You like ann so your opinion has become valid again
Akane gets fricked raw on stream.
never played Strikers, does the villain immediately proceed to do something comically villainous afterwards to justify the party's line of thinking?
He actually has a backstory where his father beats him and his mom up constantly and eventually he ends up killing the mother, so he kills his own father in retaliation, then lied to police and said a burglar killed both. This happened when his favorite tokusatsu show was on the TV at he's obsessed with justice outside the law and wants to control people to end violent crime. After the events of the game he surrenders to the police.
Ultimately there's a twist villain at the end who is way less sympathetic (sociopath femcel tries to make AI to understand human emotion, gets mad that it makes her feel human emotion) but didn't get any consequences because she resolves to be a better person.
They made another Aigis? Again?
They made a fricking cyberdemiurge
I guess you could call it a deus ex machina
>madicce
really? ono madicce sozsmal?
>try to play this game (i had already beaten royal and vanilla)
>find the PT's dialogue horrible
>try to play just for the gameplay
>playing on hard, every palace is the same thing, with 1 or 2 gimmicks here and there.
huh
The most fun character is one you get midway through. Until then, realize Haru has Nero Combo B and eventually gets the ability to dump massive AoE Gun damage and never let her out of your party. Yusuke is fun too if you get his timings down.
the gameplay of the characters is cool, i like their combos, i myself like using Yosuke because i was a huge Vergil fan, it's just the palaces that tired me out.
His fight was kino
Extremely kino
That's not TRUE kino
The Dai reference made me laugh, caught me totally off guard.
Persona has mastered the art of spectacle
I don't remember this part of P5, is this the spinoff?
>so when you punch bad guys who are hurting people it's right but when I punch literally everyone then it's wrong?
Easiest way to make a """""""""""morally complex""""""""""" RPG villain that will dupe every midwit in existence, many such cases.
So, when Armstrong says "might makes right" and then dies like a little b***h, does that prove Raiden wrong?
No, because Raiden has been fighting his entire life. He can't survive without being mightier than his enemies. It's what he wants to do with his might that's the difference between the two.
Technically it proves him right- Raiden was stronger than Armstrong, so Raiden gets to decide the his vision of the world will at the very least temporarily prevail over Armstrongs.
This is literally the point of the ending.
Armstrong is right though, and Raiden agrees. It's why he actually splits off from Maverick for real in the end to fight his own war, picking up where Sam left off. They weren't exactly being subtle with it.
The point of Revengeance is that Raiden and Armstrong have a similar philosophy with nearly opposite execution on them. Also Armstrong literally says the spirit of his beliefs lives on with Raiden as his heart is ripped out of his chest. They both believe in using personal strength to affect the world and bring down the corrupt systems in it, Armstrong just wanted to tear it down from within and salt the earth in the idea of actual government so might could make right in every single instance while Raiden wants to use his power to protect people and change the system from outside of it.
Armstrong thinks being strong and enforcing your will on others is morally correct. Raider thinks you need to be strong to protect others weaker than you and stop shitheads like Armstrong from taking over. One sword keeps the other in its sheathe.
He's right.
Phantom thieves want the world to change but do nothing about it
Most The main villains actually want to change shit for the better
I still don't know what P5 tried to tell, all the story was about beating villain of the week tier guys and lobotomize them in the name of "we are 15yo kids and frick adults". No to talk about the side missions, where the "bad deeds" of the adults were a million times more stupid.
The story was such a moronic childish shit in general that I don't know why this of all jrpg and even persona was the one to get this popular and have extremely good critics.
>No to talk about the side missions, where the "bad deeds" of the adults were a million times more stupid.
P5 is a perfect example of "basing your writing off real life is a bad idea because real life humans are infinitely stupider than the schlockiest fiction you can think of."
Good presentation is why. Menus and music.
Sophie and Zenkichi are cute!
Konoe wasn’t in the right but the muh freedoms argument doesn’t really hold water since the PT’s only tactic is forceful ego death. Even people who are receptive to criticism and could have their minds changed naturally still get brainwashed like Haru’s mentor.
why does he look like tony stark
Wait until you see his super suit and hulk buster armor
?t=422
His boss intro is great
Because making him look like Zucc would be too on the nose.
Meanwhile in the franchise Persona constantly takes ideas from
>also a story about teenagers taking down corrupt figures
>unlike persona 5 the main group's goal is understandable and just, no homosexual political reasons for their endeavours and instead they have a universally respected moral goal
Atlus should have just made a Golden Wind RPG
looking at the boss battle for this guy, they just reused rivers in the desert?? they didn't have lyn make a new song?
They did for phase 2, it’s very good
Only for phase 1. Phase 2 gives him a new song that's also one of the best in the series.
Counterstrike is a downgrade from Rivers in the Desert. Real best theme is Demiurge's theme that has Sophia theme motif
>War Cry has different effect in Soul Hackers & Devil Summoner compared to 'base' SMT
This annoys me more than it should.
Why do people here like to act as if the PT targets were all innocent and didn't deserve it?
The first act is meant solely to show how Kamoshida was not only a massive piece of shit that abused and raped his students, he could also get away with it since the same institution that was meant to protect the students was protecting him instead. They had no other way to protect themselves and make him face justice, and even then it's still treated as a massive decision that they are never sure about.
The ones in P5 deserved it, mostly at least.
The ones in strikers? Not so much. They were victims too.
Being a victim doesn't give you the excuse to victimize others, and victimizing others prevents you from dealing with your own trauma.
They didn't really have a choice in the matter, they were nice people until they got hit by the facebook virus
Good game. Better than Royal. Wouldn't play it in English though.
Kneel
honestly his design was really good, always loved these designs