>devs follow the fans advice to improve their game >actually those arent fans theyre just retards whining on the forums and hanging out on discord >game is watered down and boring but sells well
PoE is getting more shit because the only people GGG listens to are sycophants and yes-men streamernaggers who invariably drop their game to go to something else. The only exception is Mathil, who plays the game as his job, only as his job, and doesn't play at all when he stops streaming. Which is a warped, skewed perspective in its own right.
>PoE >DotA2
Icefraud doesn't listen to anyone.
If GGG had their way, we'd have shit like Frenzy Charges being "attack only" and power charges being "spell only" when they weren't even going to update uniques like Tinkerskin or Tullfall to actaully fit that fucking design. They had to be yelled at to actually understand why that change would have been fucking retarded.
Actually I think it started right when corona and lockdown happened. People started to hate themselves and hate the game, and me who does neither of those things is the only one left who gives a shit about the developers throwing balancing out the window
Fans don't know what they want in majority of the cases. Same goes for shit like YouTube. If you keep on doing the exact same videos for years to come, you will at some point lose your initial fanbase and then it all just starts to dwindle into nothing. People like PewDiePie managed to keep things Hispanicy by changing up their content over time. He started as a retard screaming in his microphone over horror games to then expanding to other games and finally ending up doing "meme reviews" and other garbage like that and it kept his fans interested while also introducing new people to shit channel. If he were to do the same shit he started with for the rest of his life like probably most of his fans at the time claimed they wanted, he'd just die off at some point when those people got bored.
There are definitely times during which you should pay attention to what the criticism you get from your fans sounds like, and then decide if it's worth giving a shit about it or not, and there are other times where despite whatever bitching that gets thrown your way, you still do as you want cause at the end of the day it's your own thing you're doing and it'll die or live by your decision at the end of it, not the fans.
>wow classic
It was always inferior experience compared to Nostalrius, mainly because of sharding and retail playerbase cancer(also later botting and gold tokens)
For sure... the state of private server now is basically filtered out all the average joes, leaving only the autists.. Nost had both, I'd go back to nost era in a heartbeat, even with the 1000 ms ping
>semi popular mmo >devs poll potential content and rewards >community votes yes to everything >poll passes >content comes out >community bitches about the content
this happens more than you think in osrs
>Everybody votes yes to everything because I WANT CONTENT NOW!!!!! >They hire 50 more retarded developers who don't know what they're doing >Quality of updates go to shit. See: Forestry >Quantity of updates remains somewhat the same despite there being literally 10 times more developers
The community rightfully bitches about the content because it's shit. Did you see the bladed moon or the new prayers?
Because the polls have vague and undefined promises and the execution is fucking dogshit horrific. That said the community is fucking retarded - they voted in the fucking Korasi. The definitive nu-runescape weapon
Fans never know what they want, end of story. Honestly if you ever make a game you should be seeking to actively antagonize your fans as much as possible.
Random crits don’t bother me. What pisses me off about tf2 is the sheer neglect and lack of good unlocks. Like shit I’m sick of using the same loadouts since 2011. Because none of the weapon they’ve introduced are viable. And the fun ones they nerfed into the fucking ground.
Don’t remind me. Demoknight always gets fucked hard by nerfs.
not a week after i got the sticky jumper and started trolling snipers with it, it got nerfed into the ground. it had been around for how long before that? thats like getting crit in real life.
I once trolled a valve employee with the old sandman and soda popper. Then they both get nerfed/reworked to hell.
Reminder they only nerfed it because comp players complained it could 1-shot the medic.
So they did listen to the "fans" and the result was the pile of shit known as meet your match
i always find it funny but it also just showed my team is incompetent and can't keep a demo off me
now i just pull my ubersaw out and hope i hit him twice first
not a week after i got the sticky jumper and started trolling snipers with it, it got nerfed into the ground. it had been around for how long before that? thats like getting crit in real life.
>nerfed into the ground
I fucking hate Valves structure so much. In no way did the original dev team do those balance updates or the comp update those had to have been people who predominantly worked on CSGO. How else could you explain the Bisons main gimmick being patched out as a fucking BUG.
>caber nerfed even though you're guaranteed to die with the hit or after since no health >sticky jumper nerfed even though all it did was let you hit the skybox if you put more than 3 >buffalo steak sandwich nerfed because... reasons >axtinguisher nerfed because fuck different styles of play >degreaser nerfed because of axtinguisher even though axtinguisher was nerfed already >resistance shield nerfed entirely ignoring the reason its chosen (lets you take another rocket hit) making it functionally useless >dragons fury outbox nerfed yet visual size is the same because lazy >detonator nerfed, but scorch shot is peak design >fists of steel nerfed because of compfags hating anything melee >liberty launcher nerfed because fuck you >loose cannon physics changed because slowest projectile in the game good >all of these changes and they never changed the Wrangler the one thing people screamed about constantly
>t. zoomer
if they listened to their fans TF2 would not be a f2p shitfest filled with third worlders
I'll never forgive Gaben for one of the most retarded decisions in vidya history
I too only play TF2 for those ocasional moments where one of my attacks deals 3 times damages because the computer decided to backseat for me. That's what TF2 is all about, I don't even remember enjoying the 1000+ hours that I wasted on TFC
I once had a comp nagger roommate. They're just as much of insufferable cunts IRL as they are online.
This is an actual quote from him when Jungle Inferno came out - "Is that guy playing Engineer? Grow up and pick a sixes class!"
Valve listened one time to compnaggers and it broke the game so fucking badly, it was like stabbing someone with a knife made of aids
We would have shitty weapons rework
We would have shitty gamemodes
Everything custom work would be a bannable offense
And you will need to tryhard daily while being forced to play a specific class
Wow classic happened because a minority of loud idiots whined about it for nearly 10 years straight.
The actual fans and players that kept the game afloat asked for things like: >Remove bots >Ban multiboxers >Stop making marksman use arcane shot >Reduce dungeon trash >Make less end-game focus on raids and more on quests, world bosses and other MMO universe content. >stop making hierarchical balance decisions based on 2v2 or, really, any pvp format.
But over a decade to do any of the above and instead they listened to the "We wunt fings de way dey wurr" crew.
blizzard uses the hassidic israeli model of in-group maintenance where they convince people that anybody who doesn't have the exact same opinions as the company does are people who have bad intentions for the game and community, so over the last 20 years the game has pretty much ejected every player that isn't completely autistic and mentally ill.
what you're suggesting are actual solutions to the problem, and we're talking about a project where the solutions have been known for 20 years. this isn't about solving the problem, much like the theological issue of lurianic kabblah that the hassidic israelites have, it's about convincing as many people as possible that their idea is better and different while simultaneously having a doctrine that their project is identical to ones from the past.
why is it better? because it's an improved version of the thing from the past. how is it better? it's better because it's exactly the same as it used to be.
Only time I ever saw that was with Scott Cawthon's games. >make a bunch of janky-ass looking games >get told that the characters all look way too robotic and uncanny >make your next projects, Desolate Room/Hope and FNAF, about robots >both receive near universal praise, the latter skyrocketing in popularity
When he tried to make the games more story-focused because it's what fans wanted, it resulted in Sister Location which people generally consider to be one of the worst entries.
This does not work consistently, hence why studios require a designer. Sometimes the fans are right, sometimes the fans don't know how to communicate what they want at all, sometimes they're just being dumb. You still need to navigate all of that or be able to put your foot down and say "this is what the game is". Doesn't help that a lot of games people complain about frequently are very fragile in design, like competitive PvP titles.
>Game comes out >Fans start bitching and crying about X being OP >X actually isn't OP, fans just don't know how to deal with it yet >X gets nerfed to the ground >Fans learn how to deal with X, and when combined with the nerfs X is now useless >X never gets buffed again
Devs should not only never listen to fans, we should also as a whole revert to a pre-social media world where no one has 24/7 access to devs. That shit has caused nothing but problems and vidya as an industry is much worse because of it.
No, they're not. You notice some do it and just assume that they all do it but the vast, vast majority don't. Most of the crazy lefty loons, which I'm sure is what you're referring to, have not been radicalized by social media. They were radicalized by their educational institutions, politicians and media.
Fans are entitled retards unable to comprehend attributes like consistent gameplay design, balance, aesthetic, art. Worst is they lack any understanding the fundamentals and only hear some "idea guys" opinion and regurgitate it as their own. Often short sighted and don't understand the consequences of some ideas. Also some criticism is often conflicting and is near impossible to please everyone.
Everyone likes to think they're the one exception who knows enough about the entirety of the game to have truly valuable insight. Few people are that person.
That said, if general sentiment about your game is that some specific part is lame or anti-fun, it's a pretty reliable sign you need to check that part.
all I can think of is when Runescape rolled back the game to 07scape after the debacle that was EVOLUTION OF COMBAT noone asked for which turned the games unique extremely simple combat into a generic run of the mill MMO toolbar spam minigame.
usually devs cant "listen" to fans unless theyre a tiny small indie company tier being ran by like 7 people max. too much buearucracy gets in the way and everything existing in a "pipeline" makes quickly delivering on feedback a challenge 99% of the time.
>Devs follow the fans' advice to improve their game >But they only listen to the most autistic and rabid fans >end up turning the game into an overtuned unplayable horror show
>devs balance the game around casual players >overpowered things remain overpowered because shitters can't use them and shitty things remain shitty because they destroy shitters
>small sub community capable of balancing the game how they want >complain to the devs anyways until the game everyone else likes is ruined >continue to complain anyways
This never happen because devs aren't playing their own games, when you do if someone give nice feedback on improving some systems you can make a testing version, play it and see for yourself if this idea is good or not. This can't happen when devs aren't playing their own game.
I don't want to stomp noobs. I just want to fuck around with my caber.
I think the thing to take away from this is that people don't want more skill based competitive games, they want wacky party games with no regard for balance and where the outcome of the game is basically random.
Yes, I don't want ranked modes or skill based matchmaking. I just want some fun gameplay where I can make people go kaboom and they can make me go kaboom. I had a good thing going until the compnaggers decided to get sweaty.
uh. yes. that is basically every game ever to have ever been popular before we entered the current year.
how do you think Smash bro's saved a entire system? why do you think a random shit game like Fall Guys was able to come from nowhere and strike like thunder then fade out?
I've never seen this in AAA or super popular indies. I only see this in nobody indies. Shit, the dev of Black Day took all his player feedback and completely remade the game into a much better one. Even gave everyone who owned it the new one, Black One Blood Brothers, for free.
>Devs listen to fans >Devs change fundamental design philosophy of the game from something unique to something generic while keeping its skin and people tell you to get over your favorite game slowly and irreversibly changing because its "good for player count" and "you are afraid of a challenge" (LOL) >Devs consequently enable fans start hemhawing justifications for the best parts of the game to become shorter and the worst parts of the game to become longer because the devs need player retention from number go up addicts and not people actually playing a game >Devs literally repeat sins of their previous game because shortsighted fans think things sound cool and beg for things without thinking of long term consequences of game health
I'm generally an advocate for devs listening to fans within reason but OSRS has become a horror story on how to rape a game and have redditors clap at it.
OSRS is a masterclass in public relations, they're dogshit at actually designing the game. they're just good at communicating with the player base so none of the changes they make are out of left field
the game is entirely run by bots though, it's fucked. the mobile release was a disaster and they basically just pandered to an audience of people who don't have their shit together enough to afford a personal computer
>Studio says it will listen to fans >Actually just listens to one youtuber with awful opinions >Said youtuber leaves the game for the next FotM >Game is now tailor made for one specific person who doesn't even play it
A real case that happened to me with my interaction with my backers on Patreon:
>I create a poll with various suggestions for additions to the game >the last option is "ignore this poll and do what seems best to you according to your intuition" >this one wins with more than 50% of the votes
>I'll make the second poll more organized >last option is something like "ignore the poll and do what is most efficient for the project" >this one wins with over 70% of the votes
>I do one last poll >last option is "I'm no longer interested in this game" >this one wins with more than 80% of the votes
Basically, the people who are giving me money on Patreon not only aren't interested in suggesting anything for the project, but when asked said they were no longer interested in it.
>"I’ve recently been getting a lot of request from the kids where they say ‘hey, I want to play a Sonic game where I can shoot guns and things’, so I decided to let Shadow do it.” >Yuji Naka on Shadow the Hedgehog, 2005
>devs and fans are in good comms >devs keep their game identity while implementing QoL that fans point out that don't affect the core gameplay but improve the user experience
>people complain about a certain character's ability >character is top tier but said ability only works if they hit the opponent and start a combo >nerf the character so its harder for them to get easy hits in >people bitch and whine even harder because the exact complaint wasn't addressed >everyone stopped complaining about the ability though since it was no longer a problem >character is still top tier >dev quits and says having open communication with the players was the worst idea ever
people who seethe about random crits in TF2 are autistic tryhards who shit their pants for being killed by a less experienced players
when a normal person is on a killstreak and gets blown up by a Crocket it's usually like this >die you... >huh? >no way lol >spawns in 10 seconds and go back to having fun
the ones who complain about it are angry from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to sleep
>Fans don't know what they want
I love that people still use this excuse, like all fans are the same. Especially if you're in a series with literally millions of fans. But a few vocal fans not liking or just critiquing a new feature that fans asked for means fans don't know what they want. I bet you the people saying that are the people who didn't want said feature in the first place and are mad that a group of fans got catered to before they did and now they want to try to make a narrative that if anyone doesn't blindly praise a long-awaited feature, they're indecisive and entitled.
In a way, you're right. But at the same time, how many fans that actually raise their voice enough to be heard by devs, are from the "retarded ideas" group and how many from "decent complain/improvement" idea?
Because most of the time i think there's more of the former rather than the latter, and in that case, why wouldn't the devs be inclined to think that's the majority voice and act according to it?
then they realize it was a stupid idea and come to the conclusion that yeah, "Fans don't know what they want"
You did it again, being selective with 'fans' and trying to paint a narrative. You aren't going to pretend that Ridley and K. Rool weren't long-time requests for Smash when I'm in the room.
That's not on the fans, that one was on either Sakurai (likely) or Square in exchange for Cloud being in the base game. I'm not saying that Sephiroth isn't popular or that he wasn't requested, but Sephiroth's inclusion seems like there was more to it than just pandering to the fans.
In a way, you're right. But at the same time, how many fans that actually raise their voice enough to be heard by devs, are from the "retarded ideas" group and how many from "decent complain/improvement" idea?
Because most of the time i think there's more of the former rather than the latter, and in that case, why wouldn't the devs be inclined to think that's the majority voice and act according to it?
then they realize it was a stupid idea and come to the conclusion that yeah, "Fans don't know what they want"
I'm of the mind that fans are good at recognizing flaws and problems. But not so good at solving them. Sometimes a flaw has a seemingly obvious solution. But a fan might not realize the ripples a change there would create and mess up other things. Fix 1 bug, get 10 more, but flaws in the game instead.
Of course, here and there, there's fans that suggest a fix that'd actually fix the problems. But I don't blame a dev not filtering through the slew of shitty screamers suggesting shit solutions in the hope of finding even a singular worthwhile one.
The only fans who say anything about any game are loud autistic retards on the internet who play nothing but that game and end up warping it into something only they enjoy. Then theres the select few who actually develop a clone of a game/genre they love themselves but it's a soulless facsimile where the only way to play it at all is the most optimised way in the original game so it's completely unfun for anyone but the most autistic of losers.
Smash clones are the worst with this shit. They listen to nothing but the competitive community and the game launches with fuck all content and an incoherent battle system and completely misses the point.
More devs should be like Kamiya and should just tell these morons to fuck off.
>nooooooooooooooooo water down the game so i can enjoy it too instead having to find another think i actually like!
have a nice day shitter you're a blight on the planet.
>Devs hear complaints of enemy ships being way to OP and unbalanced. >Makes said ships playable, and makes even stronger ships that are even more alien and dangerous than the last ones. >Devs knows its unbalanced as hell, but doesnt matter because balance in single player games is retarded and because this way is more fun.
Starsectors communitty might have gone to shit thanks to modding drama, but i still like the devs.
Game design is literally the art of fooling players into having fun and stopping them from optimizing the fun out of their games
Players literally don't know what they want and it's the designer's responsibility to figure that out and how to give it to them, there are tons of games where cheats suck all fun out of it and sour you on the game forever
Given the opportunity most players would go for that cheating option to get some hollow sense of "winning" at something and then immediately move on and forget the game for being too trivial, game design is the act of balancing out player effort with player wins to keep them engaged and create a memorable experience they'll cherish
>Devs follow the fans to their homes
>they rob and disembowel them
>devs follow the fans advice to improve their game
>actually those arent fans theyre just retards whining on the forums and hanging out on discord
>game is watered down and boring but sells well
Path of Exile.
DotA2
PoE is getting more shit because the only people GGG listens to are sycophants and yes-men streamernaggers who invariably drop their game to go to something else. The only exception is Mathil, who plays the game as his job, only as his job, and doesn't play at all when he stops streaming. Which is a warped, skewed perspective in its own right.
>PoE
>DotA2
Icefraud doesn't listen to anyone.
If GGG had their way, we'd have shit like Frenzy Charges being "attack only" and power charges being "spell only" when they weren't even going to update uniques like Tinkerskin or Tullfall to actaully fit that fucking design. They had to be yelled at to actually understand why that change would have been fucking retarded.
Runescape and League of Legends
Being a GaaS really is an unavoidable downwards spiral towards retarded devs complying with Redditors crying about the game, isn't it?
OSRS was doing great until the game inexplicably got flooded with retards a couple years ago
>inexplicably
You mean mobile release
Actually I think it started right when corona and lockdown happened. People started to hate themselves and hate the game, and me who does neither of those things is the only one left who gives a shit about the developers throwing balancing out the window
The moment normal Runescape started being called "old school" it was already over for years.
>CoH3
Fear & Hunger 2
Many such cases!
Fans don't know what they want in majority of the cases. Same goes for shit like YouTube. If you keep on doing the exact same videos for years to come, you will at some point lose your initial fanbase and then it all just starts to dwindle into nothing. People like PewDiePie managed to keep things Hispanicy by changing up their content over time. He started as a retard screaming in his microphone over horror games to then expanding to other games and finally ending up doing "meme reviews" and other garbage like that and it kept his fans interested while also introducing new people to shit channel. If he were to do the same shit he started with for the rest of his life like probably most of his fans at the time claimed they wanted, he'd just die off at some point when those people got bored.
There are definitely times during which you should pay attention to what the criticism you get from your fans sounds like, and then decide if it's worth giving a shit about it or not, and there are other times where despite whatever bitching that gets thrown your way, you still do as you want cause at the end of the day it's your own thing you're doing and it'll die or live by your decision at the end of it, not the fans.
World of warcraft
Monster Hunter
wow classic
no
this
also this and also applies to osrs
>wow classic
It was always inferior experience compared to Nostalrius, mainly because of sharding and retail playerbase cancer(also later botting and gold tokens)
For sure... the state of private server now is basically filtered out all the average joes, leaving only the autists.. Nost had both, I'd go back to nost era in a heartbeat, even with the 1000 ms ping
Blizzard did what they do best. Plagiarize then send out C&D's to the guys they ripped off.
Who did they rip off? Ultima Online?
Osrs
Ah yes, the same way Everquest listened to Tigole and killed the game in the process
I wish 989 Didn't listen to Jeff
>"DO THIS OR WE QUIT!"
>"...Ok. Goodbye!"
>listening to fans ever on changing a game
a sure fire way to ruin your games
>follow the fans' advice
Will never happen because fans are retarded.
>Will never happen because devs are retarded.
okay timmy but super nintendo and nintendo games aren't better because you ruined the controls
>devs don’t listen to their fans
>game becomes
>becomes bee come
>semi popular mmo
>devs poll potential content and rewards
>community votes yes to everything
>poll passes
>content comes out
>community bitches about the content
this happens more than you think in osrs
>Everybody votes yes to everything because I WANT CONTENT NOW!!!!!
>They hire 50 more retarded developers who don't know what they're doing
>Quality of updates go to shit. See: Forestry
>Quantity of updates remains somewhat the same despite there being literally 10 times more developers
The community rightfully bitches about the content because it's shit. Did you see the bladed moon or the new prayers?
Yeah i did, they both sucked and i'll give props to the community for that.
The content that comes out has a ton of pants on head retarded problems. Why the fuck forestry events can't spawn in WC guild?
Because the polls have vague and undefined promises and the execution is fucking dogshit horrific. That said the community is fucking retarded - they voted in the fucking Korasi. The definitive nu-runescape weapon
Its always streamers telling all their viewers to vote this or that
Fans never know what they want, end of story. Honestly if you ever make a game you should be seeking to actively antagonize your fans as much as possible.
the only case where this isn't true is naughty dog and ron gilbert and double fine
because they actively shit on everything about games they made
If devs listened to fans we'd live in a universe where TF2 doesn't have random crits, and I don't know if I could handle a world like that.
I hate soldier mains so god damn much
Random crits don’t bother me. What pisses me off about tf2 is the sheer neglect and lack of good unlocks. Like shit I’m sick of using the same loadouts since 2011. Because none of the weapon they’ve introduced are viable. And the fun ones they nerfed into the fucking ground.
>And the fun ones they nerfed into the fucking ground.
Don’t remind me. Demoknight always gets fucked hard by nerfs.
I once trolled a valve employee with the old sandman and soda popper. Then they both get nerfed/reworked to hell.
Reminder they only nerfed it because comp players complained it could 1-shot the medic.
So they did listen to the "fans" and the result was the pile of shit known as meet your match
i always find it funny but it also just showed my team is incompetent and can't keep a demo off me
now i just pull my ubersaw out and hope i hit him twice first
not a week after i got the sticky jumper and started trolling snipers with it, it got nerfed into the ground. it had been around for how long before that? thats like getting crit in real life.
>nerfed into the ground
I fucking hate Valves structure so much. In no way did the original dev team do those balance updates or the comp update those had to have been people who predominantly worked on CSGO. How else could you explain the Bisons main gimmick being patched out as a fucking BUG.
>caber nerfed even though you're guaranteed to die with the hit or after since no health
>sticky jumper nerfed even though all it did was let you hit the skybox if you put more than 3
>buffalo steak sandwich nerfed because... reasons
>axtinguisher nerfed because fuck different styles of play
>degreaser nerfed because of axtinguisher even though axtinguisher was nerfed already
>resistance shield nerfed entirely ignoring the reason its chosen (lets you take another rocket hit) making it functionally useless
>dragons fury outbox nerfed yet visual size is the same because lazy
>detonator nerfed, but scorch shot is peak design
>fists of steel nerfed because of compfags hating anything melee
>liberty launcher nerfed because fuck you
>loose cannon physics changed because slowest projectile in the game good
>all of these changes and they never changed the Wrangler the one thing people screamed about constantly
Honestly I wish they just reverted the game to either pre-unlocks or just the first batch of unlocks for each class.
>t. zoomer
if they listened to their fans TF2 would not be a f2p shitfest filled with third worlders
I'll never forgive Gaben for one of the most retarded decisions in vidya history
I too only play TF2 for those ocasional moments where one of my attacks deals 3 times damages because the computer decided to backseat for me. That's what TF2 is all about, I don't even remember enjoying the 1000+ hours that I wasted on TFC
They did on a few occasions but they were all comp naggers that made the game worse.
I will never forgive them for what they did to my beloved.
I once had a comp nagger roommate. They're just as much of insufferable cunts IRL as they are online.
This is an actual quote from him when Jungle Inferno came out - "Is that guy playing Engineer? Grow up and pick a sixes class!"
Valve listened one time to compnaggers and it broke the game so fucking badly, it was like stabbing someone with a knife made of aids
We would have shitty weapons rework
We would have shitty gamemodes
Everything custom work would be a bannable offense
And you will need to tryhard daily while being forced to play a specific class
Not true. Only esports homosexuals have an issue with random crits. They are a very very small minority and barely even fans.
design a game you like
Fuck everyone else
>be blizzard
>20 fans say do X, 2 fans say do Y
>Do Y
>"This is why listening to fans doesn't work!!"
This
Wow classic happened because a minority of loud idiots whined about it for nearly 10 years straight.
The actual fans and players that kept the game afloat asked for things like:
>Remove bots
>Ban multiboxers
>Stop making marksman use arcane shot
>Reduce dungeon trash
>Make less end-game focus on raids and more on quests, world bosses and other MMO universe content.
>stop making hierarchical balance decisions based on 2v2 or, really, any pvp format.
But over a decade to do any of the above and instead they listened to the "We wunt fings de way dey wurr" crew.
blizzard uses the hassidic israeli model of in-group maintenance where they convince people that anybody who doesn't have the exact same opinions as the company does are people who have bad intentions for the game and community, so over the last 20 years the game has pretty much ejected every player that isn't completely autistic and mentally ill.
what you're suggesting are actual solutions to the problem, and we're talking about a project where the solutions have been known for 20 years. this isn't about solving the problem, much like the theological issue of lurianic kabblah that the hassidic israelites have, it's about convincing as many people as possible that their idea is better and different while simultaneously having a doctrine that their project is identical to ones from the past.
why is it better? because it's an improved version of the thing from the past. how is it better? it's better because it's exactly the same as it used to be.
You don't have to be a professional chef to know if the food is shit, but it doesn't mean you can tell exactly how the chef should cook your meal.
And the current devs of Blizzard are woke activists too, shitting on the fans over any criticism.
Only time I ever saw that was with Scott Cawthon's games.
>make a bunch of janky-ass looking games
>get told that the characters all look way too robotic and uncanny
>make your next projects, Desolate Room/Hope and FNAF, about robots
>both receive near universal praise, the latter skyrocketing in popularity
When he tried to make the games more story-focused because it's what fans wanted, it resulted in Sister Location which people generally consider to be one of the worst entries.
Yeh, then he followed it with pizzeria simulator, which has better gameplay and still has a focus on an overt narrative.
Technically if you are supposed to be a human adult and a kid in the FNAF games there mere existence of you means there was sex involved.
>Devs make game to satisfy people making surface-level bullshit complaints
>It's absolute fucking garbage
>Devs take in complaints from haters
>sequel is a completely different game from the first
>Fans hate it
>Haters love it
>Listening to the fans
>Ever
Shiggy diggy
This does not work consistently, hence why studios require a designer. Sometimes the fans are right, sometimes the fans don't know how to communicate what they want at all, sometimes they're just being dumb. You still need to navigate all of that or be able to put your foot down and say "this is what the game is". Doesn't help that a lot of games people complain about frequently are very fragile in design, like competitive PvP titles.
I wish it were that simple.
The only fans you should listen to are those who love everything about the game and don't want to change anything, all other fans are retards.
>Game comes out
>Fans start bitching and crying about X being OP
>X actually isn't OP, fans just don't know how to deal with it yet
>X gets nerfed to the ground
>Fans learn how to deal with X, and when combined with the nerfs X is now useless
>X never gets buffed again
Fuck fans.
Grapplefags only deserve suffering.
This is how they ruined battlefield 4, thankfully the game was so amazing to start with that its still good now
I thought the background was arnold's house
>all fans always agree on exactly what changes should be made
You're an idiot.
Devs should not only never listen to fans, we should also as a whole revert to a pre-social media world where no one has 24/7 access to devs. That shit has caused nothing but problems and vidya as an industry is much worse because of it.
Almost all game devs in existence do not spend their free time on social media interacting with fans.
The ones that decide the direction of games and command the code monkeys and artists are the ones on social media, and yes it's a problem.
No, they're not. You notice some do it and just assume that they all do it but the vast, vast majority don't. Most of the crazy lefty loons, which I'm sure is what you're referring to, have not been radicalized by social media. They were radicalized by their educational institutions, politicians and media.
I don't actually know what I want. I only know what I don't want, which is whatever I get.
I don't actually know what I want. I only know what I don't want, which is whatever I get.
I don't actually know what I want. I only know what I don't want, which is whatever I get.
How many layers of irony are you on
>The devs should do this to make the game better
>But how will that make the ceos money?
game usually becomes worse though
Fans are entitled retards unable to comprehend attributes like consistent gameplay design, balance, aesthetic, art. Worst is they lack any understanding the fundamentals and only hear some "idea guys" opinion and regurgitate it as their own. Often short sighted and don't understand the consequences of some ideas. Also some criticism is often conflicting and is near impossible to please everyone.
Everyone likes to think they're the one exception who knows enough about the entirety of the game to have truly valuable insight. Few people are that person.
That said, if general sentiment about your game is that some specific part is lame or anti-fun, it's a pretty reliable sign you need to check that part.
all I can think of is when Runescape rolled back the game to 07scape after the debacle that was EVOLUTION OF COMBAT noone asked for which turned the games unique extremely simple combat into a generic run of the mill MMO toolbar spam minigame.
usually devs cant "listen" to fans unless theyre a tiny small indie company tier being ran by like 7 people max. too much buearucracy gets in the way and everything existing in a "pipeline" makes quickly delivering on feedback a challenge 99% of the time.
>developers listen to feedback from "professional gamers"
>Devs follow the fans' advice to improve their game
>But they only listen to the most autistic and rabid fans
>end up turning the game into an overtuned unplayable horror show
>devs balance the game around casual players
>overpowered things remain overpowered because shitters can't use them and shitty things remain shitty because they destroy shitters
>Devs make it so players can make their own balances for their own game sessions.
>Community shits itself.
>Game sales do not change at all
>small sub community capable of balancing the game how they want
>complain to the devs anyways until the game everyone else likes is ruined
>continue to complain anyways
That's good though
Because they are INDIANS.
>Devs follow the fans' advice to improve their game
Yes.
>devs turn narrative development and consultation studio
>Devs follow the fans' advice to improve their game
>It becomes worse
>fan advice
>"UMM, CAN YOU ADD THIS MINOR FEATURE THAT'S ONLY IMPORTANT TO ME?"
>"WHY, YES, IT WOULD MEAN REWRITING HALF OF THE GAME'S CODE, WHAT OF THAT?"
>card game
>new cards can't be
>reprint
>powercreep
>gimmick
>too slow
>no support
>playing into meta
Woooooow
>devs follow the fans' advice to improve their game
>game crashes and burn in one month
Overwatch?
>devs regurgitate fan "theory" youtube content slop instead of writing their own story
>fans misunderstand game and make memes about it
>devs discover memes and think that's what players want
>sequel becomes a parody of itself
Metal Gear?
It has to be Souls
Then there's genshin impact, whose developers take its playerbase's advices and apply them to honkai star rail.
We live in a clown world
This never happen because devs aren't playing their own games, when you do if someone give nice feedback on improving some systems you can make a testing version, play it and see for yourself if this idea is good or not. This can't happen when devs aren't playing their own game.
>playerbase wants weekly massive expansion sized content
>expects it to be free and zero grinding
HAAH
WAAW
Live service model has stunted the consumers ability to make wise purchases
>Devs balance the game for comp players
What exactly is wrong with this? Casual players usually aren't good enough to feel the effects of balancing anyway.
It takes away all the fun stuff that makes compshitters cry.
You aren't playing with compshitters and there'll still be plenty of noob stomping stuff that isn't viable at higher levels of play
I don't want to stomp noobs. I just want to fuck around with my caber.
Just look at TF2, all the fun weapons got nerfed into uselessness/being less fun.
I think the thing to take away from this is that people don't want more skill based competitive games, they want wacky party games with no regard for balance and where the outcome of the game is basically random.
Yes. Nobody makes fun multiplayer games you can just fuck around and unwind in after a hard day's work anymore. Just sweaty compnagger shitfests.
Yes, I don't want ranked modes or skill based matchmaking. I just want some fun gameplay where I can make people go kaboom and they can make me go kaboom. I had a good thing going until the compnaggers decided to get sweaty.
uh. yes. that is basically every game ever to have ever been popular before we entered the current year.
how do you think Smash bro's saved a entire system? why do you think a random shit game like Fall Guys was able to come from nowhere and strike like thunder then fade out?
>every game ever to have ever been popular
Only after women and homosexuals started playing videogames.
>Only after women and homosexuals started playing videogames.
So, since 1979?
kek, sure bro. in 1979 purely within your brain
That's when Apple II was released and Apple is for homosexuals and women. You can't refute this fact.
Apple is for homosexuals and women, NOW. Not back then.
Cope and wrong.
Well yeah I want to have fun.
>game is horribly balanced
Don't Starve.
They removed all the shit and made it good.
>made it good
lol
>>made it good
That they did.
Sonic Mania
That wasn't done by Sonic Team though. They were busy faffing about with Forces.
Baldur's Gate 3.
>Provide dev feedback for his broken game
>He starts indirectly bitching about me on twitter
I only wanted to help
>devs listen to top e-sport and metafags
>Game becomes a soulless boring stressfest
>Constatly harass dev
>He gives up on the game
Never happened.
it has happened but the game has gotten worse because fans are retarded
same thing with game devs listening to retarded "esports pros"
I've never seen this in AAA or super popular indies. I only see this in nobody indies. Shit, the dev of Black Day took all his player feedback and completely remade the game into a much better one. Even gave everyone who owned it the new one, Black One Blood Brothers, for free.
>Devs listen to fans
>Devs change fundamental design philosophy of the game from something unique to something generic while keeping its skin and people tell you to get over your favorite game slowly and irreversibly changing because its "good for player count" and "you are afraid of a challenge" (LOL)
>Devs consequently enable fans start hemhawing justifications for the best parts of the game to become shorter and the worst parts of the game to become longer because the devs need player retention from number go up addicts and not people actually playing a game
>Devs literally repeat sins of their previous game because shortsighted fans think things sound cool and beg for things without thinking of long term consequences of game health
I'm generally an advocate for devs listening to fans within reason but OSRS has become a horror story on how to rape a game and have redditors clap at it.
I miss when visages were over 10-20m instead of 2-3m
I hope you're not one of those retards that complains about the GE.
OSRS is a masterclass in public relations, they're dogshit at actually designing the game. they're just good at communicating with the player base so none of the changes they make are out of left field
the game is entirely run by bots though, it's fucked. the mobile release was a disaster and they basically just pandered to an audience of people who don't have their shit together enough to afford a personal computer
>Studio says it will listen to fans
>Actually just listens to one youtuber with awful opinions
>Said youtuber leaves the game for the next FotM
>Game is now tailor made for one specific person who doesn't even play it
A real case that happened to me with my interaction with my backers on Patreon:
>I create a poll with various suggestions for additions to the game
>the last option is "ignore this poll and do what seems best to you according to your intuition"
>this one wins with more than 50% of the votes
>I'll make the second poll more organized
>last option is something like "ignore the poll and do what is most efficient for the project"
>this one wins with over 70% of the votes
>I do one last poll
>last option is "I'm no longer interested in this game"
>this one wins with more than 80% of the votes
Basically, the people who are giving me money on Patreon not only aren't interested in suggesting anything for the project, but when asked said they were no longer interested in it.
They want you to decide for them. Just cater to the 20% that cares and the rest will follow along.
It meant they had faith in you and you fucked it up.
It's not their job to think for you.
>patreon
What porn game are you milking?
are you erodungeon dev?
that's what you get for trying to make a porn game without porn
>Devs follow their haters' "advice" to improve their game
>Game does stupendously well
>"I’ve recently been getting a lot of request from the kids where they say ‘hey, I want to play a Sonic game where I can shoot guns and things’, so I decided to let Shadow do it.”
>Yuji Naka on Shadow the Hedgehog, 2005
>devs and fans are in good comms
>devs keep their game identity while implementing QoL that fans point out that don't affect the core gameplay but improve the user experience
name one (1) game
He can't, he made that shit up.
>people complain about a certain character's ability
>character is top tier but said ability only works if they hit the opponent and start a combo
>nerf the character so its harder for them to get easy hits in
>people bitch and whine even harder because the exact complaint wasn't addressed
>everyone stopped complaining about the ability though since it was no longer a problem
>character is still top tier
>dev quits and says having open communication with the players was the worst idea ever
Why is it so common for many devs to pander to audiences that dont play their games?
complaints are loud but people who are happy tend to not sing praises every second of the day
Soulful games should never listen to fans.
Soulless games should always listen to fans.
people who seethe about random crits in TF2 are autistic tryhards who shit their pants for being killed by a less experienced players
when a normal person is on a killstreak and gets blown up by a Crocket it's usually like this
>die you...
>huh?
>no way lol
>spawns in 10 seconds and go back to having fun
the ones who complain about it are angry from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to sleep
>Fans don't know what they want
I love that people still use this excuse, like all fans are the same. Especially if you're in a series with literally millions of fans. But a few vocal fans not liking or just critiquing a new feature that fans asked for means fans don't know what they want. I bet you the people saying that are the people who didn't want said feature in the first place and are mad that a group of fans got catered to before they did and now they want to try to make a narrative that if anyone doesn't blindly praise a long-awaited feature, they're indecisive and entitled.
Nah, I don't buy it.
In a way, you're right. But at the same time, how many fans that actually raise their voice enough to be heard by devs, are from the "retarded ideas" group and how many from "decent complain/improvement" idea?
Because most of the time i think there's more of the former rather than the latter, and in that case, why wouldn't the devs be inclined to think that's the majority voice and act according to it?
then they realize it was a stupid idea and come to the conclusion that yeah, "Fans don't know what they want"
So pic related was a retarded idea?
If Nintendo actually listened to their fans we'd have had Waluigi already.
You did it again, being selective with 'fans' and trying to paint a narrative. You aren't going to pretend that Ridley and K. Rool weren't long-time requests for Smash when I'm in the room.
I don't know who you think I am nor am I gonna read all that shit but where the fuck is Waluigi.
waluigi is a shitty meme, have a nice day
What a strange poster.
Oh, you WANT Waluigi, Disregard that post then, you're okay.
No i'm saying THIS was a bad idea
That's why i said "most of the time". Sometimes you get good results, sometimes you get yet another bad idea
Sorry, this was for
That's not on the fans, that one was on either Sakurai (likely) or Square in exchange for Cloud being in the base game. I'm not saying that Sephiroth isn't popular or that he wasn't requested, but Sephiroth's inclusion seems like there was more to it than just pandering to the fans.
I'm of the mind that fans are good at recognizing flaws and problems. But not so good at solving them. Sometimes a flaw has a seemingly obvious solution. But a fan might not realize the ripples a change there would create and mess up other things. Fix 1 bug, get 10 more, but flaws in the game instead.
Of course, here and there, there's fans that suggest a fix that'd actually fix the problems. But I don't blame a dev not filtering through the slew of shitty screamers suggesting shit solutions in the hope of finding even a singular worthwhile one.
>Devs follow fans' advice
>They do a flip
You love to see it.
The only fans who say anything about any game are loud autistic retards on the internet who play nothing but that game and end up warping it into something only they enjoy. Then theres the select few who actually develop a clone of a game/genre they love themselves but it's a soulless facsimile where the only way to play it at all is the most optimised way in the original game so it's completely unfun for anyone but the most autistic of losers.
Smash clones are the worst with this shit. They listen to nothing but the competitive community and the game launches with fuck all content and an incoherent battle system and completely misses the point.
More devs should be like Kamiya and should just tell these morons to fuck off.
>nooooooooooooooooo water down the game so i can enjoy it too instead having to find another think i actually like!
have a nice day shitter you're a blight on the planet.
>devs balance the game around the top 1% sweatiest gear grinding try-hards.
>Devs hear complaints of enemy ships being way to OP and unbalanced.
>Makes said ships playable, and makes even stronger ships that are even more alien and dangerous than the last ones.
>Devs knows its unbalanced as hell, but doesnt matter because balance in single player games is retarded and because this way is more fun.
Starsectors communitty might have gone to shit thanks to modding drama, but i still like the devs.
Fuck those angular homosexuals. AM torpedoes are worth fighting them though.
>devs hire fans to make a game
>its the best game in the franchise in over 20 years
Warframe (they still do, but very slowly)
>devs follow the advice of reddit and ruin the game
FUCK HIREZ
Game design is literally the art of fooling players into having fun and stopping them from optimizing the fun out of their games
Players literally don't know what they want and it's the designer's responsibility to figure that out and how to give it to them, there are tons of games where cheats suck all fun out of it and sour you on the game forever
Given the opportunity most players would go for that cheating option to get some hollow sense of "winning" at something and then immediately move on and forget the game for being too trivial, game design is the act of balancing out player effort with player wins to keep them engaged and create a memorable experience they'll cherish
Metroid Dread