>every action, good or bad, gives chaos power
>every emotion, thought, and idea gives chaos power
>if chaos loses it wins anyway because whatever happens they get buffed by it
So what's the point of playing any of the established scenarios for this where you fight chaos if in the game world chaos wins and you're actually just serving it all along anyway?
>every action, good or bad, gives chaos power. >every emotion, thought, and idea gives chaos power
>every action, good or bad, gives chaos power
This phonograph "reads" a rock’s rough surface and transforms it into beautiful ambient music pic.twitter.com/PYDzYsWWf8— Surreal Videos (@SurrealVideos) March 3, 2023
What's the point of doing anything when you'll eventually die?
This is about WFRP, not RL.
No, it's about both.
You would know, if you played the game and finally stop living in mom's basement.
why is chaos always defended by atheisanons who go "there's no point to life rl but we live anyway", like regardless of what you believe that is not a good defense of shit like
>hooray we killed this demon of tzeench we might can win this
>ehehehe your hope actually makes me stronger and actually i planned for that demon to die because i changed reality so you'd be born so i could suck in your hope in this moment and laugh at you. nothin personal kid.
>ps i have infinitium demons
because they're "alt-rock muh metal hair" cuckolds who haven't done anything with their lives so their only personality trait is nihilism
chaos fanwank is literally for trannies and mental patients
>"alt-rock muh metal hair" cuckolds
God, those are almost as bad LARPing Christcucks
Before anyone says this is an exaggeration I'd like to point out there's an officially published campaign for WFRP 1st ed where Tzeench sets the PCs up to be born so they can do a scheme for him, and if they survive to the end which requires doing basically everything frame perfect, the main suggested ending of 3 is to have them all immediately die, no saves or anything, because that's the price of trying to defy Chaos's uninterrupted victory. The Tzeench scheme works anyway, and the author called this the "proper" ending.
The other two, a happy ending where the plot is foiled which the writer called "banal and cowardly", and another where Tzeench just sends the group back in time and resets the world so none of it ever happened.
Personally I don't know how much of a pegging enthusiast you'd have to be to find that fun, at least the "proper" ending.
This is what happens when midwit spergs try to write “serious” stories, they’re so culturally bankrupt and disconnected from actual literature that they think being miserable and edgy for its own sake makes something deep. All those works of literature with tragic endings are also surpassingly beautiful and the tragedy arises more naturally from difficult aspects of reality. This kind of edgelord evil-wank just proves that nerds deserve to be bullied, they’re not smarter than non-nerds people, just more obsessive
>like regardless of what you believe that is not a good defense
Yes, it is. Just don't play anything Warhammer-related if you don't get it.
"you die rl" isn't a defense of
if you believe life has no point so you think that's fine, that's based on your beliefs and no more objective than me using my beliefs to defend/attack it too
>that's based on your beliefs and no more objective than me using my beliefs to defend/attack it too
Utterly delusional. Believing in magic is not equally rational to not believing in magic.
Believing nothing exists beyond what we immediately observe physically is irrational imo.
because the application of your nihilism to real life exposes it as the hollow fucking shell it is
if an inevitable end is enough for you to believe things are pointless have a nice day and save us from your incessant whining
Okay that's cool and all, but the immediate harm that the daemon was going to do at that moment in time has been prevented and even if this somehow benefits Tzeentch in the long run, I still did some immediate good and people who would have otherwise died get to live for a while longer. A town that might have been wiped off of the map gets to exist for a while longer. Hopes and dreams and lives that could have been snuffed out get to enjoy existence for a while longer.
Learn to savour the small victories, fuckboy.
learn to lose gay
>I still did some immediate good
No you didn't, because Chaos let you do it and that success empowers them more.
>get to enjoy existence for a while longer
You mean they get to feed the Chaos gods for a while longer which is why they aren't dead already.
>Learn to savour the small victories
There are no victories in the way WFRP is written, except for Chaos.
Cool, in that case I win and Chaos win simultaneously and these people who I saved from Chaos get to enjoy living for a while longer. Everyone wins.
What's the problem?
Why are you calling other people atheists when you're the one shitting your pants over a setting where there's an omnipotent and omniscient god and everything is according to his plan no matter what happens?
probably because belief in gods doesn't equate to a belief in fate you giant retard
Are you claiming that God isn't omnipotent and omniscient? Well, aren't you a fedoralord?
having faith doesn't even need a belief in a deity
I can see you spent a lot of time cumming on cookies and being raped in catholic school, but the world of belief is a big place
Doing things IRL doesn't actively feed some supernatural entity that will violently destroy, consume, and torment everything in the universe
>he doesn't know
Stop listening to chaosfags, and understand that a lot of the in-universe stuff is written by biased sources.
>So what's the point of playing any of the established scenarios for this where you fight chaos if in the game world chaos wins and you're actually just serving it all along anyway?
Because you can have a fun game.
That's the delusional cope followers of chaos believe, not the actual truth. In reality it's pretty much the direct opposite, chaos "gods" are minor deities with very little power that are only allowed to exist because Order (aka true) Gods are opposed to the idea of changing the status quo of the world, and chaotic petty-gods existing is a part of said status quo.
I thought even the elves thought the "good" gods were just additional manifestations of the realm of magic.
>whats the point of me going to work if the sun is going to just blow up
nihilists should kill themselves
The setting would get less dangerous and more boring if there was a way to actually contain chaos for good.
With there being no way to defeat chaos even temporarily and with it being basically all-powerful it's also boring imo.
>With there being no way to defeat chaos even temporarily and with it being basically all-powerful
Neither of those things are true.
chaos is literally contained because of the high elves with their magic vortex you giant retard
not him but the vortex doesn't mean shit apparently, not just in end times but even before. if it only took 4 greater demons to kill aenarion and chaos had 4,000,000,000,000,000,000 ^ 500,000 greater demons on standby it could drop in at any time, it stands to reason they didn't actually care about the vortex or its consequences. they could still flood the world with warriors and demons and corruption afterward anyway. shit, the chaos books that mention the vortex don't even give it credit, they say shit like
>the elves did a pathetic, ineffective ritual while chaos doomed the entire world
chaoswank is gay and I don't read it
that's not ET lore
army books always tried to be glowing towards the faction they featured
chaoswank is shit and chaos needed the storms to invade properly
you dumb fag
i agree that it's shit and it's dumb but i'm saying it's the default lore because it is. so do most people just ignore it?
chaosfanwankers ruined the setting so they don't matter and their opinions are dogshit
Yes. Ignore this shit and make your own lore in your head.
It doesn't need to be something easily obtainable, or even fully explained. It just needs to be a possibility. That tiny seed of hope that makes the darkness seem that much more oppressive, because at any moment that hope might be snuffed out.
Maybe one of the Temple Cities really does have a way to shut down the Polar Gates. Maybe there is some magic ritual that would drive back the Chaos Wastes. Maybe there is an ancient Rune that could repel corruption.
Without that chance, the setting becomes truly stagnant. Nothing matters, Chaos always wins. 40K got this right at least. Humanity might have been royally fucked, but maybe, just maybe, there was a chance they could drive back the darkness. Mind you, the whole setting then imploded thanks to Cadia falling but that should be disregarded.
I agree with all of this but 40k's no better in that regard, especially after the Horus Heresy books. But yeah, while I hate hopeless settings in general, I'd be okay with the setting if it was "chaos might win" or even "chaos will probably win" instead of "chaos will definitely win" which is just writer bias factionwank.
go clap in Ponies RPG then, fag
How to fix WFRP.
>chaos isn't timeless or eternal, the chaos gods came into existence when the world was created
>no multiverse, no 40k shit, no aos shit, fantasy is it
>demons aren't infinite and creating them requires a chaos god to expend a portion of its power, and they take so long to reform that it's not just no big deal when one dies
>demons can be permakilled
>the non-chaos gods are powerful themselves, lacking the same primal vigor of the chaos gods based on emotion but being able to focus their power more effectively
>chaos gods don't receive buffs from everything equally, i.e. an orc or ulrican killing his enemies empowers gork/mork/ulric more than it empowers khorne, hope in sigmar's deliverance empowers sigmar more than tzeentch
>the chaos gods don't know everything or control the flow of time/reality, not everything that ever happens is because tzeentch planned it
>chaos isn't guaranteed to win, it's likely to win because people can become corrupted and evil easily, but it's not a foregone conclusion
And Morr's your uncle, you're left with a setting that's still grim and perilous, but not a nihilistic chaos fuckfest.
That's literally what they did in Age of Sigmar
Afaik AoS didn't change the fundamental aspects of chaos. It's still immortal, timeless, all knowing, infinite, etc., and from what I remember even Archaon's stronger than any other god and can/will kill them.
AoS timeline ends with Nagash victory and it's only a metter of prolonging it, because it might be next thursday or might be trillion years from now. Either way he is actually unkillable, not sustained by lives of mortals like Chaos, and chaos can't do shit about him long term
>nagash has had the shit beaten out of him by archaon multiple times
>archaon could kill him if the chaos gods ordered it but they don't because they think he's funny
>acktually choas is in fact the strongestest!
>this faggy cosmic entity could beat that one!
do you fags ever realize how gay this is
I agree it's gay as fuck, and I don't see why people put up with shit like it or
I just realized how bad warhammer names are, holy shit
Gork and Mork would be fine but them being combinee and in the same "ork" pantheon make them absolute trash. Ulric is ok.
This one is fine
What the fuck is this lmao. Sounds like something a 13yo came up with
Warhammer isn't a serious setting. Or wasn't as it was being developed
New idea: Make your own setting
>How to fix WFRP.
>the non-chaos gods are powerful themselves, lacking the same primal vigor of the chaos gods based on emotion but being able to focus their power more effectively
How about just adding the Law gods and end the discussion?
They are already a thing.
>They are already a thing.
I don't think they were "officially" introduced in the Warhammer universe apart from some minimal and veiled indication of existence.
Also, even if they do exist, they were nearly powerless, like
says, with even Sigmar having more influence in the WF world.
That doesn't fix the issue of the chaos gods being so infinitely far beyond them to the point of nihilism. Nonchaos gods are in the mariana trench. Chaos gods are in the andromeda galaxy. They need brought closer together, nonchaos risen, chaos lowered.
>How about just adding the Law gods
But they would be able to defeat Chaos Gods, and this is unacceptable.
They should, or at least be able to challenge them, but the law gods we had and the replacement gods we got after are weak to the point of not being gods at all. They can't do anything let alone fight chaos. 8ed retcons sigmar into being an egotistic and physically weak coward, liar, and manipulator who gets snapped into a portal by tzeentch who laughs at him, and he's THE foremost anti-chaos godm
>8ed retcons sigmar into being an egotistic and physically weak coward, liar, and manipulator
No, it very much doesn't.
>No, it very much doesn't.
We aren't intrested in your headcanon.
Meant for you actually.
It very much does. He never kills any monsters, he never fights any demons, he's bitchslapped by Nagash and only wins by tricking him, gets bitchslapped by Archaon, gets punked by Tzeentch, and as a mortal Chaos only doesn't kill him because they get bored and fuck off just as they're about to. Sigmar is shown as being fully in it for himself and the Empire's founding is to get money and devotion from people despite him hating and looking down on everyone.
sources: 8ed, end times, time of legends books
>official gw books
it'd odd how you defend the lore as a whole but actually only your specific selection of it, which is based but dont act like all the canon is good
>official gw books
Posted where? You only posted headcanon and lied about it being from books, but we made it abundantly clear here
that we don't care about your headcanon.
>I don't think they were "officially" introduced
I don't think you've read anything about warhammer
>official gw books
Do you have problems with understanding english?
Back up your shit (you can't because you're making shit up) or accept being called a liar pushing his headcanon.
>keeps saying others are lying
>keeps saying wfrp doesn't specifically include a blurb saying chaos will win
It'd almost be a hint of interesting if this wasn't also an edition that enforces the Liber Chaotica and end times as being canon, and refers to the Law gods as "spent". Way to fuck it up C7.
>an edition that enforces the Liber Chaotica
every edition does, that's been the basic metaphysics of the setting since it resembled anything remotely like a setting
>and end times as being canon
the rpg is set before, not during, not after, it doesn't enforce anything here
>and refers to the Law gods as "spent".
alluminas invoked by wizards, daora with a heir in venera, priests of solkan with prayers included in the book, a plothook to free arianka, an indication of lizards understanding the gods of law... it's almost as if the term "spent" isn't used literally.
Yes, that everything that exists is controlled by and empowers 4 evil tards.
No, that's not what it says, you're encouraged to pass middle school and then to read the book.
>No, that's not what it says
Yes, that's what it says.
Doesn't matter when the writers OOCly say that's how it is. Canonically you have two choices, the 80s up to pre 8e version where all the non-chaos gods are actually just fragments of the chaos gods duping mortals for kicks (confirmed by Gav Thorpe), or the 8e-aos-present version where the non-chaos gods are real but are completely powerless and will die to chaos.
You keep posting your headcanon and not answering the questions
You keep trying to change the subject, but you can't change the fact WH lore is pure shit.
but you keep posting your headcanon and are trying to get away from the questions, again
answer them, mongoloid
>but you keep posting your headcanon
>Official GW books.
answer the questions, what threads did you browse before warhammer shoved its fluff into your throat, what game were you playing until /tg/ interrupted you to force you to read and talk about warhammer in their general threads?
>I don't think you've read anything about warhammer
I know they were introduced in the first editions, but they were also quickly abandoned and never discussed. Apart from brief nods and cameos, they're basically non-existing and non-influential to the general plot.
When was the last time you saw a faction worshiping a Law God?
>He never kills any monsters
>he never fights any demons
>he's bitchslapped by Nagash
>and only wins by tricking him
*outsmarting and beating with a hammer
>gets bitchslapped by Archaon
wrong, sigmar overpowered him and threw him down a portal
>gets punked by Tzeentch
>and as a mortal Chaos only doesn't kill him because they get bored and fuck off just as they're about to.
>Sigmar is shown as being fully in it for himself
>and the Empire's founding is to get money and devotion from people despite him hating and looking down on everyone.
The rest is correct however
>wrong, sigmar overpowered him and threw him down a portal
>but the law gods we had
>when chaos decides to win they'd kill all the law gods too (wfrp)
No it wasn't.
make up lack of numbers with unity
>>when chaos decides to win they'd kill all the law gods too (wfrp)
This isn't written, nor it happens, they even get to the age of sigmar.
WFRP 1e explicitly says the chaos gods will consume the law gods no matter what, and further says law is just a facet of chaos. The only WH god ever to threaten the chaos gods was Malal and his creator fucked off from GW at the end of the 80s because they were as shitty and dishonest a company back then as they are now.
warhammer 1e had laser guns and chainswords
you're one dumb fuck
yeah it's retarded, that's the point
I'll post a pic later but yes, it says it verbatim.
>WFRP 1e explicitly says the chaos gods will consume the law gods
No, it doesn't, and it doesn't happen when the end times happen, why do you keep lying?
he's a chaosfag
headcanon is all he has because he follows shitty writing for a boring faction
>what the point of playing DnD, Hell and Abyss cant be permanently defeated anyways
>whats the point of playing Warcraft, Demons and Void cant be permanently defeated anyways
>whats the point of Elder Scrolls, the Daedra cant be permanently defeated anyways
Is this your first setting with cosmic forces?
In those settings those antagonistic powers can be defeated, and when they lose they genuinely lose. There are also protagonistic cosmic powers that exist, and they're genuinely strong too. Also, in those settings not every single action, thought, or emotion empowers the antagonistic powers. Also, the antagonistic powers aren't infinite and supremely powerful. Even Lovecraft's cosmology isn't as bleak as default Warhams.
>elves make the Vortex
>chaos repelled for countless lifetimes of good people
>empire wins great war against chaos
>chaos repelled again for countless lifetimes of good people
>Imperium wins Horus Heresy
>Chaos a joke for the next 10.000 years
The only difference is that GW decided to axe the WFB setting for real world reason, to make a new product.
>GW writers say all of that was just planned by chaos or they wanted it to happen anyway and could've won anytime
So? People still play Pathfinder, despite there being Rovagug, who cant be killed and may or may not be free in some undefined future, to ruin the setting. Stop obsessing over some 4 lines of meta narrative and just enjoy the game.
>People still play Pathfinder
Unfortunately. I think if people knew the magnitude of autism in Pathfinder's setting, which dwarfs even Warhammer, they wouldn't play it.
>canonically Cthulhu, Lucifer, Thor, and Jesus all exist in Golarion
>canonically Golarion is somewhere in a distant galaxy during the 1910s RL and there's an adventure where the players teleport to earth during the russian revolution
>the endless line of fetish and magic realm content and lore everywhere
And don't forget that nowadays D&D isn't much better.
>it is literal canon in D&D that Rick Grimes from The Walking Dead, Godzilla, Rick and Morty, and 40k all coexist and are real
I hate the modern tabletop industry.
>>it is literal canon in D&D that Rick Grimes from The Walking Dead, Godzilla, Rick and Morty, and 40k all coexist and are real
You need to learn what cannon means anon
Entropy exists! Everything you do increases entropy! Arghh this is such shitty writing! And the sun is just going to blowup eventually?? GRIMDERP!!!
>entropy is evil demons laughing and plotting evily
>entropy isn't a slow natural loss of energy over time it's roid vikings stabbing you because their demon gods decided you die now
Why does it matter whether entropy is malicious or not?
Because entropy isn't a sentient force or malevolent. Chaos is sentient and malevolent. It killing everything or being inevitable isn't entropy any more than someone standing on railroad tracks and getting hit would make a train entropy. It also doesn't matter because this isn't a discussion about life or how you view the nature of the real universe, it's about a GM running a game then killing all the players and having everything they did not matter and justifying it with "le entropy of chaos" which is HIV ultrapositive.
>Because entropy isn't a sentient force or malevolent. Chaos is sentient and malevolent.
But what does it matter? The motivation or lack thereof is irrelevant. All is dust regardless.
It matters for the whole thing. Entropy is a natural expenditure of energy. Chaos killing everyone on a whim is no more entropic than a bank robber shooting and killing a guard. It's an artificial, contrived death.
>It matters for the whole thing.
He explained it, retard. It matters because it isn't entropy. It's a second, random person killing you, not the universe ending.
>It matters because it isn't entropy.
It not being entropy isn't important, though. Both entropy and Chaos represent inevitable demise. Why does the precise form matter?
Being killed and dying of old age are different, the the difference matters. I imagine you don't want to be killed, but wouldn't mind dying of old age, peacefully, on your couch. Why does it matter?
>Being killed and dying of old age are different
People are killed in the real world.
People die of old age in the warhammer cosmology.
Killing is not exclusive to Chaos and old age is not exclusive to entropy.
Could you possibly have worse reading comprehension?
I read gud. You've explained the differences between entropy and Chaos, but not why the differences matter when the end is the same.
>Chaos is not entropy
Not relevant to the point. Chaos is not entropy, but it is like it in that both are doom.
>When the universe is consumed by entropy, nothing happens afterwards.
Which most would say is in fact bad, since they rely on stuff happening to live.
>Which most would say is in fact bad, since they rely on stuff happening to live.
You're being an obtuse asshole and not actually acknowledging the point I'm making. Eat shit and die
No, I'm not sure the point you're trying to make. Again you're showing the difference between entropy and Chaos, but no one is saying they're one and the same, just that in essence they will lead to the end of everything you love and care for, and both are unstoppable. You will die. Your loved ones will die. All your descendants will die. All life on earth will die. Chaos is much like that for the people of the Warhammer cosmology. The key difference is maybe that Chaos can be bargained with.
>just that in essence they will lead to the end of everything you love and care for, and both are unstoppable. You will die. Your loved ones will die. All your descendants will die. All life on earth will die
If that's your belief. That's not what everyone believes and I'm not sure how effective it is to defend Chaos's writing with your personal beliefs (anymore than criticizing it for the same reasons).
If you believe some god can swoop in and save you from your doom then you're a Chaos warrior yourself. They're even actually correct in their setting.
life will continue on in some fashion where as chaos is just gaywank for fags
that's why you're a dumb gay nihilist loser
>life will continue on in some fashion
Will it though? Surely gods and daemons will be more "alive" than whatever could survive the heat death of the universe.
>If you don't understand the difference between dying and staying dead vs dying and getting tortured for all eternity
Most people don't get tortured for all eternity though, they just dissolve back into the primordial currents of the immaterium.
Second point was actually for you
>the heat death of the universe.
>implying you or anyone else living or dead knows a single god damn thing about the universe and how it will "end"
just shut the fuck up, my god you're retarded
Cool, come back when you've got a better set of laws of thermodynamics.
>this is how the universe works I wrote a paper on it because I couldn't get laid !
>oh wait white holes do exist..my bad !
go for another lap MC dipshit hawking
You're back quick. Where's the new laws?
don't skip class bro, highschool is important
>chaos is the heat death of the universe
>we know the universe has a heat death
>we know there is no god/gods above the universe
>we know that death is it and there's nothing else
how are you using Ganker, dead time traveler
If you're just going to believe in shit for no reason then you can just believe that after Chaos kills everyone they actually get to live happily ever after in Heaven.
>you can just believe that after Chaos kills everyone they actually get to live happily ever after in Heaven
We know what happens after Chaos wins though, the writers tell us. It's not the same thing or even similar to RL.
>We know what happens after Chaos wins though, the writers tell us.
But you can just imagine something else, like you do in real life.
Do you have an argument beyond keyboard fedora-ing? When this whole discussion isn't even about what you or I believe RL?
>Do you have an argument beyond keyboard fedora-ing?
I'm not arguing with you, I'm telling you to believe whatever you want if it improves your enjoyment of warhammer.
>this whole discussion isn't even about what you or I believe RL?
It sort of is when you want to argue about entropy but you don't want to really believe in it.
>mad because people point out how dumb chaos is and you have no argument
But I've given my argument, you just refuse to engage with it.
>mad and retarded
>It sort of is when you want to argue about entropy but you don't want to really believe in it
The argument isn't about what entropy is or isn't, it's that Chaos isn't entropy, which you've been given arguments of a dozen times now and haven't said anything in response besides "that doesn't matter" despite your original point being that Chaos is fine because it's entropy.
>The argument isn't about what entropy is or isn't, it's that Chaos isn't entropy
It's not because I've stated several times that Chaos is not entropy. Both Chaos and entropy simply both represent inevitable doom.
Still not engaging with that argument.
>Both Chaos and entropy simply both represent inevitable doom
Okay, and what's the point? The original point is Chaos inevitably winning is dumb in WFRP because it makes games about fighting Chaos pointless and robs player agency. What's your counterpoint to that if it's not "chaos is entropy"?
The point is that Chaos is inevitable doom and that in real life we have our own inevitable doom called entropy. Chaos is not entropy, and so differences can exist between them and pointing out those differences is not relevant, because they key similarity is that both are inevitable doom.
Since we live under the shadow of a real inevitable doom, and since you're still alive, presumably you've found a reason to keep on living.
If you've found a reason to keep on living in real life you can probably find a reason for a character to keep on fighting in warhammer.
>in real life we have our own inevitable doom called entropy
Depending on how you see it, and the nature of existence in general. Regardless, the concept of (physical) entropy relates to us eventually dying of old age. What comes after our death, we don't know. We know in WFRP though, it's eternal soulrapefuck by Chaos.
>presumably you've found a reason to keep on living
Yes, because real life is different from a fictional story/setting.
>If you've found a reason to keep on living in real life you can probably find a reason for a character to keep on fighting in warhammer
There is none, full stop. Everything people do empowers Chaos. Fighting Chaos empowers Chaos. Chaos wins no matter what happens, making all adventures to fight Chaos pointless, because by even trying to oppose it it grows stronger. You could do other adventures I suppose, but fighting Chaos is presented as the central theme of WFRP, and it's also completely pointless and actually counterproductive.
I'd rather just not play the setting.
>What comes after our death, we don't know.
We have no credible reason to believe anything happens after our death. Anything else is just you believing some shit, and you can do the exact same thing for warhammer. Sure you're afterlife is shitty, but nobody said anything about the afterafterlife, which is actually sunshine and rainbows.
>Yes, because real life is different from a fictional story/setting.
Yeah, you can choose to engage with different view points and modes of thought in fiction, you're not tied down to just your own.
>There is none, full stop.
Sure there is. Maybe the character is delusional and believes in salvation. Maybe they just want to be able to go home and have a pint. Fihgting Chaos may make it stronger in the long run, but if you don't fight it now it'll kill you and you won't be alive anymore.
>I'd rather just not play the setting.
Another great option.
>We have no such reasons.
Then move on, I don't stand around looking at turds while considering how to prepare them to my taste.
>Maybe the character is delusional and believes in salvation.
Do you actually read other people? Did you read warhammer lore?
Yes, and yes. Delusion is a good character motivation.
>Yes, and yes.
Looks like no and no.
Then give me an actual point rather than making vague aspersions.
Give me a point to waste my time on you.
You keep replying, so presumably you see some value or have some time to waste.
Or they could've just, you know, not written it in a way where PC delusion is the only way of interacting with it, and they could've just, you know, not gargled semen from a fictional fantasy faction making it all-powerful and inevitable. But what do I know?
So tl;dr your point is
>the lore is fine if you ignore it
which I agree with, you should always ignore lore you think's shitty in a setting, but that doesn't make it -not- the lore by default. If I were to play in a game of WFRP with
this campaign, if my GM plans to run it as written then that means I'm indeed gonna instantly die at the end of it and everything I or the other characters did won't matter because the focus of the campaign, stopping Tzeench's scheme, is pointless because his scheme works anyway, regardless of our actions or the campaign's progress.
>So tl;dr your point is
>>the lore is fine if you ignore it
No, my point is that it's good and that you should be able to engage with it on an intellectual level even if you don't share the general world view. But you can also ignore it if it's bothering you that much.
>Or they could've just, you know, not written it in a way where PC delusion is the only way of interacting with it
It's not the only way, that just happens to be a good way in my opinion.
>it's good because it is
Different strokes, but it's not easy to truly defend completely sapping your players of agency, running them through a campaign that's actually a big jape, and killing off their characters in a rocks fall, everyone dies moment for no reason other than to make the setting futile and extra-dark. It's not a game I'll be playing any time soon.
>it's not easy to truly defend
It's very easy if you're manchild, who like muh grimderp.
>>it's good because it is
I'd say it's good because it engages with real life anxieties, and presents a different sort of world compared with more common heroic fantasies. Also the art, models, fluff and so on.
>but it's not easy to truly defend completely sapping your players of agency
I think it is, stroies about fate a prophecy are old and I think speaks to something in the human condition, also I'm not sure the campaign you're talking about, but I believe the ending was left to GM discretion anyway, no?
Different strokes. I can safely say WFRP's setting doesn't interest me and I'll be avoiding it, but it's good if you find depth and enjoyment in it.
Cool, go in peace. But I'd urge you to keep an open mind going forward, and to remind you that you don't need to agree with something to engage with it and find something enjoyable there.
>this bro makes fanfiction to enjoy a shitty setting
At least with WFRP, one issue is that it largely and intentionally (as far as I can tell) serves as an attack on or satire against, depending on how you perceive it, things like traditional European or British culture, conservative or moralist ideas in general, and religion, mainly Christianity. I can agree that you don't need to agree with everything someone says to enjoy their work, but at the same time, if something isn't meant as entertainment, but as an attack on your beliefs, that's likely a different story. Same if something is so far removed from your interests as to not be interested in it at all - I'm sure the folklore of China's RotTK period is interesting if you're into it, but I'm not whatsoever and wouldn't go seek out games or books set in it, just as I'm sure a lot of people don't like Renaissance Europe and shot-and-pike despite that being my thing.
>I believe the ending was left to GM discretion anyway, no?
No, but you can't read, so yes.
Well I know it presented some options as superior, but you're not forced to take the superior option.
>At least with WFRP, one issue is that it largely and intentionally (as far as I can tell) serves as an attack on or satire against, depending on how you perceive it, things like traditional European or British culture, conservative or moralist ideas in general, and religion, mainly Christianity.
I can't say it's an attack. They portray a world that's obviously informed by what they know being white British men in the 80s, and the world is intentionally dark. But they don't offer anything else as morally superior as you might suspect in a hit piece. Communism or new age eastern mysticism isn't presented as the answer to everyone's problems, it's simply a shitty world filled with a lot of shitty people. Christinaity isn't really featured much beyond lifting the aesthetic, and they do that because they think it looks cool, rather than because they have an issue with doctrine.
an attack doesn't need to offer an alternative, it just needs to undermine
>You can probably find a reason to eat shit.
This is the main problem for people, who don't like chaoswank. We have no such reasons.
The point that I'm trying to make is that there is shit that happens after you die to chaos. Big massive fucking diff between entropy happening and everyone just being regular dead vs chaos winning and everyone gets murderfuckassrapemindbrokentortureenslaved for infinity eons.
If you don't understand the difference between dying and staying dead vs dying and getting tortured for all eternity then you're the most retarded person still alive and I have zero idea how you've managed to remember to breathe all your life much less know what the fuck a warhammer is. Never post again you pseudointellectual illiterate fuck
It's all just shitposting at this point.
chaosfags are genuine retards that's the actual problem
Entropy is a natural process, except it's not really a process at all. It's a combination of natural factors, some still unexplained, that cause energy to be spent and be rendered into a different state, generally not the same energy as before.
Chaos is not entropy, at least you'te getting there. It's actually the opposite of entropy, it's a purely artificial death brought on by the whims of plot-armored, overpowered entities in the setting who have the power to end the world when they choose because it's boring, forced grim-nihilism.
My Congolese-American, there is a very important difference between a world naturally running out of its energy and either turning into a different state or ceasing to exist in its current form, and hell demons murderfucking everyone because invincible demon gods will it.
What is it? It's the fate of both to end and for the works of man to be undone.
You are shitposting, illiterate, misunderstanding, or just dumb, my Congolese-American.
Mainly the consequences. Chaos has active consequences when it wins.
The OOC answer is because chaos being active puts it in the place of an antagonist. It's satisfying to see heroes succeed against an antagonist but chaos being inevitable means that the antagonist wins no matter what. In framing the setting as one where chaos is some ultimate evil it shoots itself in the foot in the same breath because that evil is unstoppable.
Also, there is always material difference in the experience of one's demise. The difference between chaos and entropy is akin to the difference between drowning and dying in your sleep
>Mainly the consequences. Chaos has active consequences when it wins.
You can choose to speed up entropy as well.
>The OOC answer is because chaos being active puts it in the place of an antagonist.
Which isn't really relevant when the setting is intended to be dark.
>You can choose to speed up entropy as well.
That has absolutely nothing at all to do with my point.
When the universe is consumed by entropy, nothing happens afterwards.
When the universe is consumed by Chaos, bad stuff happens afterwards.
>Which isn't really relevant when the setting is intended to be dark.
Read the rest of the fucking post after that sentence, asshole.
>the setting is intended to be dark
Darkness in a setting is a seasoning, and like any seasoning, too much makes it inedible.
Who is qualified to judge how much is too much for another person?
When you end a game with "you lose you die because chaos" that's when. From a design standpoint it's shitty. Otherwise it's subjective, but its quality is also subjective. If you think it's good dark fantasy that doesn't mean it is, and the other way around.
>Entropy exists! Everything you do increases entropy!
>Arghh this is such shitty writing!
>And the sun is just going to blowup eventually??
false equivalency, don't argue like you cut off your penis for goodboy points
1) False equivalence. Chaos is actively malicious, unlike entropy
2) Fiction is held to a different standard than reality
3) Yes it is shitty writing
This is no worse than every fan WAD being canon to DOOM's setting. Every drooling idiot still creams their pants over the doomslayer despite just as much silly shit being canon there
>So what's the point of playing any of the established scenarios for this
The whfrp adventures are all linear railroad trash. There isn't, not because of the setting but because they're fuck awful adventures.
>why do if choas?
idiocy for the millionth time, if you don't see the appeal in smaller struggles of individual heroism against an invasive and tragic corruption and collapse you probably just don't like warhammer and should investigate other things you'd be happier playing. If you're ideologically set on the necessity of improvement and betterment, stop making the same retard threads, go play any of the thousands of games with what you want.
maybe you should play other games you chaoswank gay
That's fair if it's what you're into. I just think it's a shame because WHF is about the only thing that satisfies my renaissance guns and pikes vs. fairytale monsters and orcs itch, but it's yoked to a setting with lore that I find repulsive.
There's a fair number of osr games with that general time frame, might want to check out Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Engines & Empires or Epées et Sorcellerie. There's more, enough I have forgotten them. There's more outside of osr. Stuff like 7 Seas.
For most gaming, ttrpg or ttwargame I have found taking systems you like and bits of the settings you like, then adjusting to your preferences works best.
Honestly if you like enough of warhammer or whatever and just do your own thing with it there's no problem. Thousands of kids must have run some version of their characters being the hero and winning in various permutations.
>Lamentations of the Flame Princess
That's just Warhammer's aggressive nihilism but with a side dish of autistic incel rage seasoned with his degenerate fetishes.
You know its not a totalizing setting and more a themed publishing house with a wide range of things from gwar written stuff to no monsters at all cottage murder mysteries, that you don't have to use any of the adventures if you don't want to?
The basic rules for the time period work well, do what you want with them. They're free.
I agree with your post here
I'm just saying Lamentations is as far as I can tell horrendously retarded and I don't want to touch any part of it. I'd discourage anyone from doing so. It was literally started as a project for the schizo-incel 40s something writer who acts like a teenager to vent his frustration about his ex-girlfriend who he eventually got in trouble for fucking stalking.
ydy but it really seems like you're too caught up in weird ideas about whatever the author's politics, personal life or ideological modes are to the point you can't just read a book of rules for games of the imagination and then use your imagination to have fun with your friends.
Reading a book by someone who did something you don't like won't mutate you into a super satan. There are specifically a wide variety of games that aren't lotfp that still do what you claim to want.
Then make your own setting?
ΔS+ = Happens.
it's a laugh, innit?
gotta do summink till ya die, otherwise yer just a poof commie
What's the point about whining about the Warhammer RPGs when you could just play a Dark Fantasy setting that isn't retarded, like Shadow of the Demon Lord or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser or Elric... ETC?
My main beef with WHFRP 1st ed. was how weak your character was.
Even maxed out with 4 attacka and autisitic min/maxing you were at best mediocre.against any opposition harder than a snotling,
If I wanted to be a use- and worthless character I would simply look in the mirror.
The setting is a cool read but really not at all fun to play in, in my experience.
>every action, good or bad, [headcanon]
Didn't read the rest.
chaos: the metaphysical force and chaos: the faction of evil devils are two separate things in the minds of the writers despite the omonym
a scenario where sigmar has a complete victory over everything was given as an example, that still counted as a victory of chaos: the metaphysical force
it's more of a matter of spirituality over reality than of good vs evil, the miniatures make the spiritual side mostly evil devils because the point was to have a wargame where landsknechts would get to fire on dark metal vikings, but the cosmology is very much not a battle of good and evil once you get past the ground level
>but the cosmology is very much not a battle of good and evil
Yes, it's about the victory of evil, because there is nothing good in the cosmology.
>"I don't like how Chaos wins in the end."
>"Play something else."
>"Make your own setting."
>"But I don't like how Chaos wins in the end."
Retards all over the shop.
I'm just curious, but what is appealing about this?
Would you as a player be content with the outcome?
Sounds like a Chaos character scenario. In which case its the journey, the descent that is meant to be entertaining. I'd also imagine the dude describing it is seething, so I'd take it with a pinch of salt.
It's from Doomstones, a WFRP 1e campaign where the players try to stop a plot by Tzeentch to use the power of the aforementioned Doomstones. It ends in a reveal that Tzeentch arranged for the PCs to be born to deliver the Doomstones to him and complete his plan. In the end they fly away from the Chaos Wastes in a Dwarf airship, and the suggested, quote "proper", ending is to have all of the characters either each die suddenly, or have the pilot if it's a PC die suddenly and then crash the airship which immediately kills the party (no saves, spending Fate points, or alternatives are presented to any of this in the ending). This is caused by Tzeentch, and he recovers the Doomstones anyway. The author in a third person description of the ending says this is the fate of the Warhammer world and anyone who tries to interfere with "the inexorable forward march of Chaos." and "No triumph goes unpunished."
Post some scans or quotes, I bet you're just distorting things because you're upset. Something to the effect of the player charavters always dying no matter what they do.
Yeah, so its one of several endings in a non canon scenario. The blurb saying "the good guys lose in the grimdark version" isn't particularly earth shattering.
>non canon scenario
It is canon. What is non canon is the shit in your head.
Its one of multiple endings, none of which actually happen in any lore. The warhammer ending isn't described as the true or correct one. Its the "warhammer" one because in warhammer fashion its the most edgy. But its made clear you pick your ending rather than one being true and the others being false.
I'll have to post the pic later but it literally says the Warhammer ending is the proper one and refers to the Hollywood (good ending) ending as "banal" and for if you lack "courage".
It doesn't say that retard. It says its up to the gm which ending they pick. Nowhere does it say that one ending is canon, it just says that one ending is more grim than the others.
>It doesn't say that
But it does.
It literally doesn't. You can pick from one of multiple endings. You chose to read the darkest one and got upset. Its not any more valid than the hollywood ending, for example.
"If you're a virgin loser, and you want to use the banal and idiotic ending of the campaign, here's this shitty, stupid ending, where everyone is happy. If you're a true fan of Warhammer and The Arts, and your dick is at least half as thick as your head, here's this cool ending! And, if you really deem so, here's a third ending, where you never did the journey."
You're just not reading the whole thing.
>If you as the game master feel that they've done their best to behave in an honorable way, have tried to stick to the straight and narrow, and haven't plunged into each encounter in a frenzy of lying, cheating, stealing and wanton blood-letting, then this is the moment to reward them for it.
This ending is presented as an alternative in just the same manner as the warhammer ending.
>Do you want a banal and cliche ending, a grimdark ending, or a mix of both?
Isn't saying that the warhammer ending is the most true. You're just seething.
>then this is the moment to reward them for it
The third ending is a time warp that puts the PCs back at the beginning of the adventure and causes none of it to ever happen. The "good" ending is that the adventure never happened.
The ending has the adventure continue without their characters dying. You brought this scenario up as an example of "Chaos rock falls, party dies" that isn't the true ending, nor is it the canon one of the three. Its just an option.
Where are you getting timeloop invalidation from anyway? The sequel section mentions that revenge will be seeked for their destruction of the doomstones.
Calling the hollywood ending banal doesn't encourage the warhammer ending anymore than it does the Third Way ending.
It does. If you weren't autist, you would know.
Are you legit disabled? The Third Way ending isn’t critcised, and involves the characters all surviving if they’ve acted nobly enough and not brushed with darkness too much in their quest.
>Are you legit disabled?
he's a chaosfag
>characters all surviving
Characters achievend nothing, their adventure never happened. Brilliant.
Where are you getting that from? The sequels section specifies that, if you want the campaign to continue, you'll be facing enemies you made along the way coming after you. Nothing suggests its some sort of time loop.
>The ending has the adventure continue without their characters dying
The author-suggested ending is an immediately partywipe because of some gay shit about "the inexorable march of chaos".
>nor is it the canon one of the three
What do you even mean canon? It's a WFRP adventure. There's no canon to the outcome, but the writer clearly says the TPK is the most canon-friendly, and he's still writing for GW/WH.
>Where are you getting timeloop invalidation from anyway?
Look at the third ending.
>Calling the hollywood ending banal doesn't encourage the warhammer ending
If I told you the shirt you're wearing looks retarded and ugly and you should wear the awesome stylish shirt instead, what do you think I'm doing?
>and involves the characters all surviving if they’ve acted nobly enough and not brushed with darkness too much in their quest
Yes, it lets them all survive by looping them back to the beginning and causing the entire adventure to never happen.
We've moved so far away from "module where your characters have to die at the end" because you can't give any evidence for it. 2 of the three endings have the players survive. Its explicitly said this is up to what the GW wants. One ending where they survive is a direct reward for the player characters acting nobly and not like shitters. The text even states "since your players have been good, now is the time to reward them".
You're so assblasted you probably skimread the warhammer ending and seized on it.
>writer clearly says the TPK is the most canon-friendly
Not said anywhere in the text. You're getting this from the stereotypical ending being described as banal.
>If I told you the shirt you're wearing looks retarded and ugly and you should wear the awesome stylish shirt instead, what do you think I'm doing?
What you're not doing is telling me which shirt to wear, or what is the correct one. You're just saying that, of all the shirts, you don't think that one is cool. Similarly, the author doesn't say any ending is more correct or valid than the other. Nothing negative is said about the best, most noble ending either.
>Nothing negative is said about the best, most noble ending either.
Aside from calling it banal, cliche, and stating that it requires GM courage to not do it.
I'm done at this point.
Thats not the Third Way ending you fucking mongoloid.
>First Ending: Banal, good
>Second Ending: Edgy warhammer-style grimdark
>Third Ending: Heroic, good, everyone lives
>the best ending is dwarves the players haven't even met teleport onto the ship, fix it, then teleport away
So your pick of the poison is
>the players save the day by their heroism and clever choices - bad, bland, banal, cowardly
>the players all immediately die because chaos - proper, warhammer, brave, correct
>the players are gonna die but are saved by magic dwarves who immediately disappear - the middle ground, acceptable
Yes, the players being rewarded for their nobility by the intervention of either a good god or dwarven spirits recognizing their worth is a good ending. As much as you're clearly upset by that being the case.
The only outcome being party death was just made up seethe. Thats 100% fact.
>intervention of a good god
Doesn't happen, because for some reason this fantasy world Dwarf ghosts are more prevalent and powerful than non-Chaos gods.
>or dwarven spirits recognizing their worth
Random ghost dwarves appearing out of nowhere, fixing the problem to the point the GM is supposed to not even let the players speak or react, then disappearing as the adventure ends is not a good ending. It's a happier ending than the dumb TPK, but it's still not a good ending, it's also very dumb. All the PCs have done meant shit, and it's not even their friends or gods who save them, it's random Dwarves they never met before who do all the work.
>>Do you want a banal and cliche ending, a grimdark ending, or a mix of both?
>Isn't saying that the warhammer ending is the most true. You're just seething.
Do you know what "banal, cliche, cowardly" means? The writer is telling you the only proper ending is TPK, and the acceptable alternative is to retcon the whole adventure.
people that write for GW (any of their systems or games) are dogshit
there's the real answer
"Do you want this stupid fucking ending, the real ending, or for everything to not have happened?" That's the choice being given. Do you want to be lame and dumb, be cool, or have everything you've done be meaningless?
It strongly encourages the "proper" ending (which is an unavoidable TPK).
Unfun fact, that writer is still with Cubicle 7/GW.
>a non canon scenario
You can write any RPG adventure off as non-canon.
>The blurb saying "the good guys lose in the grimdark version" isn't particularly earth shattering
No, because that same attitude is pretty much everywhere, at all times, across all versions of canon. Realm of Chaos and Liber Chaotica are still canon and getting mentions in WFRP 4e, and those say exactly the same thing: Chaos transcends space and time, it is all-powerful, present everywhere, and the world is its plaything. It's grimdark to a retarded degree, and I've only seen a few settings moreso.
>No, because that same attitude is pretty much everywhere
Its what makes warhammer warhammer. Its been baked into the setting from when it was created. The world is a plaything for evil gods, all mortal victories are fleeting.
I wish there was a middle ground setting somewhere. Everything's either a 1 slap happy good guys win noblebright or 11 edgy angst-ridden grimdark shitfest. Maybe I just need to make my own setting.
post the next chapter
Anon is a bitch, ignore him
plus some extras
>the world's not doomed
>later says the world is doomed
Seems like shitty writing.
>However one does exist.
>tzeentch knows everything
>but there is a loophole
>but it doesn't work or make sense
>but the campaign revolves around it
>but the correct ending is tzeentch tpks the party and wins anyway
High school students could write better than this.
>>but it doesn't work
but it does work in all endings where the players throw the stones into the vortex, anon, please, read.
>you can survive by giving the stones to chaos lol
You also die regardless in the "proper" ending.
Yeah, it's to summon a bunch of dwarfs out of nowhere, with no direct cause, and nothing the players could have planned for. It's like if the fucking DMPC decided to save the shipwreck. Terrible writing.
Tzeentch in general is shittily written. muh all knowing ebil asshole and the writers think it's clever, then they have to scramble for ways to overcome the obstacle of "how do you outsmart an evil god who knows everything and planned the universe" that they themselves made, and they do it poorly.
This is actively contradicted in WFRP 1e let alone later lore. In TEW they can spawn in demons at will and inevitably destroy the world and do so uncaringly according to WFRP.
>the obstacle of "how do you outsmart an evil god who knows everything and planned the universe"
the answer is that tzeentch works by alien scales, morals, and logics, in practical terms it's self destructive and can't be otherwise, you aren't supposed to outsmart it, just to beat it.
>This is actively contradicted
no, it's not, it's still fundamentally true even to this day, please, apply high school-tier reading comprehension.
>endings are everyone dies because that's proper hehe nothin personnel or time travel and the adventure never happened
>actual ending with any resolution is "banal and cowardly"
throw the stones into the portal and it collapses, stopping tzeentch's plan, things may or may not happen to players depending on GM.
or fail to throw it and have a chance for finding again the stones and throwing them in the portal, closing it and stopping tzeentch's plan.
or fail and the campaign ends badly, with no sequel.
The book encourages you to do the forced TPK ending, afterwhich the sequels and disasters show even "success" doesn't mean anything because Tzeentch's plans just work since he knew they'd do what they did. It also ignores the fact he's a super overpowered plot-armored Chaos god who can just do whatever the fuck and his whole self-limitation to a plan is for amusement, not because he has to.
the book gives you option, which you are completely free and encouraged to choose based on the players inclinations and plans for further games.
tzeentch's plan is stopped in any ending where the stones are thrown into the portal.
>the book gives you option
Option to loose in one way or another. Good game.
You're arguing with a demented autist.
My guy, the author encourages you to do the TPK ending. If someone begs you to eat shit and offhandedly and snarkily adds you don't have to, it doesn't mean they didn't just beg you to eat shit.
>and his whole self-limitation to a plan is for amusement, not because he has to.
it's its nature to behave that way, he has to be self destructive.
It's not framed that way, it's framed entirely as him being all-powerful and doing w/e he wants.
>It's not framed that way
Yes, it is.
>he could kill them but doesn't want to
>he kills them anyway in the suggested ending
>but doesn't want to
because then he would gain no power from the keikaku, his plans have to be faulty
>he kills them
it's not tzeentch who kills them
please, read, it's plain english, black on white, there're even silly pictures every page or so.
>he could kill them any time but can't because he wants to larp a keikaku
>wants to gain power but is already invincible and knows he wins anyway just like all chaos gods
>but especially tzeentch since the universe and all reality is his foreseen plan
sounds like shit to me
>sounds like shit
Because it is.
of course stuff sounds dumb to you when you are dumb enough to keep failing basic reading comprehension
no wonder you're a nogame
>chaos has never won anything ever
>"b-but they will eventually! I swear!"
>We like TV show but don't like the last episode.
>Go KYS, make another show and enjoy it.
>We like TV show but don't like the fanfic we made of the last episode
Fixed that for you. There is no last episode.
This. Warhammer fantasy bums me out most because I like so much of what's in it, but the tacked on forced meta point of "everything is chaos's game and they're gonna eventually choose to terminate the world and you can't do anything lol!" is as tiresome as it is unnecessary.
>it makes the world grim though
And is that supposed to be a good thing? What, the hordes of rats, orcs, disease, and other shit weren't grim? How is it a positive for a setting to make it grim to the extreme of nothing you do matters? I just don't get what drove the devs to do shit like that, or this.
Like who is reading or playing this and having fun or thinking it's well written lore?
>What, the hordes of rats, orcs, disease, and other shit weren't grim
No. That shit exists in all fantasy settings and stories. The good guys being unable to win has been a foundational pillar of warhammer. Right from the get go by thr guys who created it.
>a foundational pillar of warhammer
GW stole so many things from other IPs so there were no pillars. And there should be Gods of Order who are fighting Gods of Chaos and Malal, who ends Universe when Gods of Order or Gods of Chaos wins. But we have only Chaos Gods because it's so grim and so depressing.
>make a narrative-based wargame setting
>advertise the idea players can influence the outcome of lore events
>the outcome of the war is decided and can never change
Surely you can see why this isn't a good idea.
>the good guys can never win and bring about peace
>the evil faction will always ensure fighting, for as long as humans exist
Its the perfect setting for a wargame. The good guys can win infinitely, create giant sprawling empires, but bad guys will always exist and they'll always be fighting until humanity dies off.
The good guys being unable to win doesn't facilitate a wargame, because it means the bad guys will win and destroy everything instead. Especially with how it's framed as the bad guys being able to kill the good guys any time they want.
Your fanfic isn't canon.
The bad guys being the only ones able to win facilitates more violence and war than any option for good guys winning, which would spell an end to those things. Its like survival mode, only writ large with regards to a setting. Eventually humanity will experience a fall of rome style death, but that faraway future isn't relevant for the stasis of a wargame.
>Its the perfect setting for a wargame.
Faction's favouritism automatically makes any game ruined.
>the faction that always loses is actually the writers' favorite because my headcanon says so
Take your fucking meds.
>>the faction that always loses
Yes, Chaos was fucked in End Times.
End Times is my headcanon. I retconned Storm of Chaos in my head.
>Take your fucking meds.
Skaven win at the end. Chaos think they got their big win, but it was Skaven and the Horned Rat outplaying them.
Skaven won, but their victory was given to Chaos. It doesn't bother chaoswanking imbeciles though.
Did you even read End Times: Thanquol? They get their buckteeth kicked in. None of their plans don't work, they can't work together for shit, two out of four great clans get rinsed, all warlord clans get their shit pushed in and most grey-seers are dead by the end.
They blew up moon, ruined a lot of cities. It was impressive.
And lizardmen stopped the whole moon fiasco with mind bullets in a reverse uno card play. Said gigantic chunks of Morrslieb then fell onto clan pestilens, killing them all while the lizards fucked off to space.
Chaosfag mad that Skaven won
i know that as playerscum you cant be expected to actually read the rulebook, but you could at least read the cover.
This is why I dropped Fantasy around 7th edition.
>He keeps remaking this same thread over and over again
You were filtered by the setting and btfo in those threads numerous times already.
I beat chaos.
>gets his headcanon disproven by citations
>still insists his headcanon is correct
Take your fucking medication, you schizophrenic freak.
>this is canon
>no it isn't
>I don't play
>I don't collect
>I don't like warhammer
>but I have read every book and spent years telling others I don't like warhammer
what am I?
you can ask why someone likes something without liking it yourself, especially when for years this board shoved warhammer into everyone's faces
asking the same questions for years? blindly refusing to accept the same answers for years? crawling through novels and rulebooks of a setting you don't like and of games you don't play for screenshots of text you miss the point of and discard the context for, to keep on whining for years?
when has warhammer been shoved into your face? who forced you at gunpoint to enter the general threads of games you don't play? who coerced you to read books you evidently don't like? what goddamn kind of mental retardation were you diagnosed with?
>when has warhammer been shoved into your face?
>for years this board shoved warhammer into everyone's faces
>when has warhammer been shoved into your face?
You can't read, right?
Have you even read the rest of the post?
You can try to ignore other people's posts, but it wouldn't help.
Who forced you to enter warhammer threads? who forced you to read warhammer fluff? what other threads on /tg/ were you enjoying before the evil warhammer fan shoved his game down your throat?
no, seriously, what games do you even play?
warhammer sucks ass
It's none of your business.
Chaosfags are worse than D&Dfags. D&Dfags at least pretend to care when their company shits over all the other players. Chaosfags sit back and eat the shit as GW shits on them, and get mad when other people get mad at GW for shitting on them.
>this is headcanon
no one cares
>no it's not
>no one cares
>ignores the important bit about losing weight
how fat are you
>the tide eventually turns
>can be delayed
it doesn't say what you think it says and was disproven by the end times
>tide always advances more
>no matter what chaos wins
>further elaborated in roc and liber chaotica that everything exists to be the chaos gods' toy
that's not what roc and liber chaotica say, again with the headcanon
btw, answer the questions
>the same answers
calling official canon headcanon and fake is not an answer
you haven't answered why you like it
you didn't answer the questions
>calling official canon headcanon
none has called official canon headcanon, they've only told you your headcanon is just headcanon and to read the fucking sources because they don't say what you keep crying about and explain how shit works
>spend a third of the thread saying
>this is headcanon is made up headcanon
>get shown visual evidence it's not
>only response is "you're fat"
your headcanon wasn't canon, in fact, the text says chaos can be delayed and the end times proved their victories aren't final
btw I wasn't the anon calling you fat but since it triggers you I'll now call you a fat slavic pig
>it doesn't say what you think it says
What kind of mental illness is it?
>disproven by the end times
Inevitable victory of Chaos was disproven in End Times where Chaos finally won and destroyed everything.
the inevitable victory of chaos was proven not inevitable the moment it was said it could be delayed
and the final victory of chaos was proven not final when everything fucking survived, most gods were not "swept back into the voids", all life did not decay, and not all souls were forever tortured by the gods, a lot escaped, reincarnated or were taken back, to the point gods, life and souls regrouped to be stronger than before
this is the victory you have been whining for years on end
>not all souls were forever tortured by the gods, a lot escaped, reincarnated or were taken back, to the point gods, life and souls regrouped to be stronger than before
Because Chaos allowed it to, canonically will still win, and canonically could win anytime.
Also, isn't AoS shitlore? We're talking about WHFB, specifically WFRP, where canonically Chaos kills everyone full stop.
>Because Chaos allowed it to
it's its nature to do so
>canonically will still win
can be delayed
>and canonically could win anytime
but they won't because it's not in their nature to do so
>specifically WFRP, where canonically Chaos kills everyone full stop.
no, it doesn't, it can be delayed, remember?
>but the end times
you either whine about the end times and accept that they disprove chaos's victory is whole or final because of aos, or you ignore shitlore and chaos still doesn't win because it hasn't won and can be delayed
>it's its nature to do so
if you still seriously think GW's canonical framing of the chaos gods is mindless forces of nature and not literally huge evil demons you're badly mistaken. nurgle literally stands around a big bubbling cauldron laughing and farting and has a physical little shack and a bed inside it that he sleeps in. it isn't some deep esoteric metaphor, it's edgy supervillains.
>mindless forces of nature and not literally huge evil demons
it's both, always has been both, will always be both, except the first is their actual nature, the second is how they get perceived or shaped by what mortals expect to perceive
>chaos army books
you're too fat to deflect that, anon.
that fat comment really hurt you didn't it
just go for a bike ride and you won't be a corpulent pig my man
>gw writers: chaos gods are physical beings
>chaosfags: they actually don't mean that, they secretly mean the chaos gods are given emphemeral shapes by belief!
>no, they're physical beings, here, we wrote these stories where physical chaos worshipers are hanging out in nurgle's physical garden in view of his physical mansion where he's sleeping in a physical bed
>aha, sure, whatever you say 😉 man i love how clever and deep warhammer is, it's just so........wow..
>chaos gods have common traits and physical appearances across all cultures
s a s u g a
>Also, isn't AoS shitlore?
Of course it is. It was made by GW after all.
>the inevitable victory of chaos was proven not inevitable the moment it was said it could be delayed
It is inevitable if it's not about if but about when.
>and the final victory of chaos was proven not final
It was final victory, lad. If you won a game, you're still a winner even if there will be a new round of this game in future.
>It is inevitable if it's not about if but about when.
but if it can be delayed then it's practically a matter of if, because chaos doesn't win at a certain fixed inevitable moment, it wins only if it doesn't get delayed.
then you agree that the great war against chaos, or the great catastrophe, or whatever other war was a final victory by the forces of order as well, there was just another round of the game afterwards
you're as retarded as you're fat
>it can be delayed
It actually can't.
>in-setting beliefs, hearsay, tales and threats
plus proven wrong by the end times, all life did not decay, souls were not all or forever taken, the realm of chaos hasn't begun, only the mortal realms and the age of sigmar.
Not proven wrong because all that is canonically happening, AoS literally only happened because the Chaos gods decided not to end it completely and let some spirits reform.
Also, this is about WFRP, not AoS.
Because I choose to.
>still bumping the mentally ill retard's thread
I enjoy seeing how retarded choasfags are myself
>"chaos always wins"
>chaos never wins
>"chaos always wins... at the end"
>the end happens
>chaos still doesn't win
>the old lore says chaos wins
>the mid lore says chaos wins
>the late lore says chaos wins
>chaos blew up the world
>chaos let the aos world form so they could blow it up again
>writers say chaos will eventually decide to win and will do so immediately when it decides to
>writers say [hallucination]
And now he's samefagging.
>Planet is destroyed, everybody dies.
>This is not a victory.
We are talking with endygod.
>When Chaos has their ultimate victory at the end of time and the universe, the entire setting becomes a lovecraftian pool of mad energy
>Why hasn't this happened yet, the Everchosen took over a kingdom!
Real retard hours.
>n-not that's not universal enough!
chaosfags are retards
The same book that has the warhammer world being destroyed introduces another setting. Plenty of lore makes it clear that fantasy is just one of an endless number of other places Chaos fucks with. At no point is Chaos said to have achived their ultimate victory, everywhere. That would mean an end to the warhammer setting, including 40k and AoS.
Chaos victory is not edgy enough for our manchild.
So it's not only that Chaos is going to win, no matter what, and is wholly unstoppable, we also have to make it clear that the Warhammer world/galaxy is just a little footnote in the overall game they're playing, and when it's completely destroyed and swallowed by Chaos and all the people and souls within tormented forever, it's not even Chaos's final form, they've not even used 1% of their power yet, and the setting they destroyed really, truly meant nothing.
nice fuckin game
Yes, Chaos is an entropic, lovecraftian force, and the best the mortal races can do is life as well as they can in the meantime. Thats been the lore since page 1.
Instead of acting like a chud and demanding it be changed because it hurts your feelings, just go and make your own setting nobody will care about. Or play settings where good is a more fundamental force.
chaosfags are retards
You're fixing on semantics because you want to keep seething. Its blatant what chaos is in warhammer. If you don't like it play something else, or create your own setting that is "warhammer, minus Chaos."
Also find a better module to get mad about. That Third Way ending is pretty uplifting.
The Third Way ending is literally just "No, your efforts are worthless. Here, these Dwarfs can fix it for you. Isn't that nice and satisfying?"
Nah, because your characters earn those dwarfs showing up by their good action and resisting evil. And they succeed in their quest, so its only worthless in the "but one day the world will end" way.
What do you mean they earned it? They just showed up. Maybe if it was set up in some way beforehand, but they literally pop out of nowhere, because the GM felt "Might as well." It's garbage. If you were a good boy and got good boy points in your most recent campaign, then God Himself picked you up, crushed Satan, and put you on a throne, despite your Good Boy Points having nothing to do with that, it would just be confusing. And it is. Why are you defending trash writing, if you're not trans?
Its said there in the ending. You only get that ending if you play heroically, and not like a shitter.
>Heroic and faithful till the end, all seems lost when either a god or noble spirits materialise in a genuinely good miracle on your behalf.
If you think something like that needs to be set up, even though its the continuation of a tone, you're just a gigantic fag. Go read some sanderson books where everything is a mechanism or system, and nothing is allowed to be genuinely supernatural.
>If you think something like that needs to be set up
It need to be set up or we will have contradictory mess.
Yes, but I like things to make sense. Dwarfs appearing out of nowhere to save you, when you're not allowed to succeed any rolls yourself, is just plain bad. Adding on to that, they have no reason to be there outside of "I thought it was neat."
>Destroy magical superweapon created by long dead dwarf loremasters and twisted by Tzeentch
>Durr I didn’t know there were dwarven spirits!!!
Well now you do, gay. And they saved your life since you stopped the corruption of their greatest work.
It would be like fucking around next to the great vortex and being suprised at there being elf spirits showing up. That doesn't mean they'll show up outside of that interacting with an impossibly powerful artifact.
Lovecraftian monsters didn't care about humanity and they never were killing machines, who destroy one universe after another for muh grimderp.
It's funny that Lovecraft's default cosmology is less grim than Warhammer's, even without more optimistic authors' contributions. Nyarlathotep is the only real evil force he has and he isn't unstoppable, and he's opposed by an equally powerful god (Nodens) who intervenes on behalf of humans twice.
in old times chaos was galactic and the nids were from outside
now it's all just chaos
choasfags are fucking lame and retarded
The third ending isn't a time loop, it's just that random Dwarves show up out of nowhere, fix the ship, and then disappear, which for some reason the writer thinks isn't banal. He words it all really stupidly and clearly wants the main ending to satiate his edge fetish though.
You know better than author, of course you do.
>it's ALWAYS some dumb shit from the earliest, abandoned editions
Reminder that this mentally ill freak has been at it for almost a decade.
>chaos won the end times
>even though it was actually skaven
Luke, did I ever tell you about chaoswank?
Skaven were always destined to win. They outnumber all the factions combined, they can appear almost anywhere in the world, they are the most technologically advanced, their god actually exists and interacts with them, they're split into factions (disease, knowledge, war, stealth), and everyone knows they can kill more of their own troops then the enemy, come out with only 20 or 30 remaining models, and still win.
Chaos is just an inferior Skaven clone.
What annoys me more than the nihilism and chaoswanking is the general "lolol europeans and western culture so retarded" attitude through it. It's that smugfuck Moorcock or fake Monty Python attitude that pretends everyone in history was an idiot and the only answer is some BS Marxist utopia. At least Monty Python made fun of them too, but still, it's this shit-eating-grin anti-westernism that irks me the most. Some level of parody is fine, but not treating every historic European as a complete drooling caveman.
Most Europeans aren't as emotionally fragile as you are. Things can be entertained for the sake of aesthetic or tone inside a fantasy game. The people who get upset at that sort of thing tend to equate escapist fantasy with a statement of intent regarding the modern world.
Its one thing leftists, chuds, and Romaboos/VGH...muh cultur types all have in common.
>he says while playing chudhammer
>equate escapist fantasy with a statement of intent regarding the modern world
Considering Warhammer was made by big Moorcock fans, and Moorcock's a (literal) Marxist who said all fantasy literature needs to serve the Marxist cause, it's not too far fetched to say that Warhammer was made with similar motives in mind. Maybe not at the forefront, but I'm sure the "haha britain sure sucks huh" line wasn't 100% there just for funny entertainment. Maybe like 90% entertainment, 10% some kind of politi-shit message.
>it's not too far fetched to say that Warhammer was made with similar motives in mind
It clearly is, since what warhammer copies is stuff that looks cool, and the people who were fans of it were fans of Moorcock's stories, not marxism.
>brown chimp out
A tale as old as time
>the only answer is some BS Marxist utopia. At least Monty Python made fun of them too
Warhammer does too. No ideology is promoted as good.
Live and let live. No one should be going
>y ur game not like warhammer it gay
>y ur game like warhammer it gay
that only makes you the gay, whether you're a chaosfag, antichaosfag, carnac, bizarro carnac, w/e etc
would have thought that some mentally ill loser wasting hundreds of hours and years of your life screeching into the post-relevance Ganker void would relate to futile struggle on a deep spiritual level