Yeah, definitely not one for beginners, but if you want to play the RNG gacha no other class compares. For an experienced player with a good race they're strong even with average skills, though, at least for an extended game because their high level class abilities are always useful.
The nerf isn't so bad, the early game is much easier in general now. It just means they don't instantly invalidate the movement powers other classes get like they ussd to. It's still a free wish for the price of a talent, not to mention guaranteed at the start of the game.
Both, that's why it's such a good base class. 3/4 BAB, good proficiencies, excellent skillset that synergises well with Able Learner, casting, and access to both party-wide buffs that are always on and extremely powerful abilities like Legionnaire's March at higher levels. Sure, for specific roles there are better options (if you want a pure blaster make a sorcerer, if you want to smash with big axe make a barbarian, if you like spending an hour prebuffing before every fight, cleric's made for you) but bards are good to great at almost everything.
They're also good for multiclasses, giving access to RDD (far better than in the first game, now that enhancement attribute bonuses no longer stack and you can take four classes instead of three) and being non-lawful which lets you access the best melee prestige class in the game. Bard is an extremely strong choice whether it's for one level or thirty, in a party or solo. Especially for the player character.
On top of what the other Anon said, NWN2 bard song scales all the way to level 30 so it's stronger than you may think. And Curse Song doesn't count as an Inspiration so it doesn't interrupt your regular song, meaning you can buff all allies (including yourself) and debuff all enemies at the same time.
Bard has always been the target of jokes, but lots of people only joke because they don't know how powerful it can be.
Song of requiem is also one of the best feats in the game, it does as much AoE damage as a blaster, and heals your party at the same time.
As for the best melee prestige class, do you mean Frenzied berserker?
On top of what the other Anon said, NWN2 bard song scales all the way to level 30 so it's stronger than you may think. And Curse Song doesn't count as an Inspiration so it doesn't interrupt your regular song, meaning you can buff all allies (including yourself) and debuff all enemies at the same time.
Bard has always been the target of jokes, but lots of people only joke because they don't know how powerful it can be.
RPG "classes" have stayed away from the role of cultural archetypes they were originally and this (and also "multiclassing") has been disasterous for bindu gems and bindu game community
Bards are definitely the most wrongly portrayed class.
Here's some real life bards: >The life of Archilochus was marked by conflicts. >The ancient tradition identified a Parian, Lycambes, and his daughters as the main target of his anger. The father is said to have betrothed his daughter, Neobule, to Archilochus, but reneged on the agreement, and the poet retaliated with such eloquent abuse that Lycambes, Neobule and one or both of his other daughters committed suicide.
Here's a bit he wrote: >One of the Saians now delights in the shield I discarded >Unwillingly near a bush, for it was perfectly good, >But at least I got myself safely out. Why should I care for that shield? >Let it go. Some other time I'll find another no worse.
Here's a drinking song by another bard called Hybrias, based on his own experiences: >"I have great wealth – a spear, a sword and a fine shield to save my skin. With these I plough, I reap, I tread the sweet grapes and am called master of my serfs. All those that dare not hold the spear and sword and fine shield to save their skin, all bow and kiss my knee, calling me master and great king"
And they're definitely one of the most useful classes in D&D 5e right now.
Bard >can't cast awesome spells >has to play a fricking lute while fighting >can't take a hit >can't hit anything >has to sucks wieners to be of any value otherwise
Anyone else also find the Bard class concept so funny? Imagine you and your companions fighting to death and then you look at your side and then you see your friend just blasting out tunes nonstop while dodging attacks lmao I would just lose my sides in the middle of the fight
>a dragon appears, what do you do? >Fighter: I slash him with my +15 Greatsword of Overcompensation! >Wizard: I conjure an arcane lightningbolt from the aether and cast it at him! >Druid: I summon the awesome forces of nature to overwhelm him! >Bard: I get down and drop some sick rhymes!
>take ranks in Perform (Rap) >cast or get a gold chain of Persistent Undersong so you can use Perform in place of Concentration in skill checks >take the maneuvers from Tome of Weaboo Fightan Magic that let you use Concentration for your saves and damage rolls
Absolute best way to play D&D. Your DM might throw a chair at you when you diss a fireball so hard it fizzles out, but it's very much worth it.
4e tried to give them a bit of a revamp with Warlord but it didn't catch on and they eventually added bard again. I agree that a combat lutenist is inherently comical. Not always the mood you're going for in a campaign.
Singing and drums have historical precedent in combat, mostly for armies. Once you pull out an oboe in the middle of a pitched battle you start to lose me though.
I find it hard to believe Warlords were ever supposed to actually replace Bards. Yeah they kinda fill the same niche but they completely lack the magic aspect of Bards, as well as the "jack of all trades" role fantasy.
Do people actually try to use bard as an all-rounder in D&D games? I always thought about him as a "melee guy who knows some spells" or "melee guy who knows how to pick locks and disable traps without being a rogue wet noodle". You just can't turn him into an effective melee/rogue/magic all-in-one package.
If you're not using your spells you're only playing half a character. You'll never be a primary spellcaster but Bards get some great buff and utility spells in any edition.
I guess the problem is that part of a Bard's skillset just doesn't translate well to video games.
You don't really need that high of a CHA score thanks to enhancement bonuses, nor do you really need any spellcasting feats since you're not really going to be casting any offensive spells.
In pen and paper? People either don't use bards at all, or use the class for roleplaying reasons rather than it combat efficiency.
Regardless, D&D movie makes bard the protagonist so the class is still valued by the game makers and presumably is here to stay.
I think its a cultural thing, Japanese don't have a historical equivalent to medieval minstrels so the idea of 'magic instrumentalist' who is also 'melee guy' and 'party face' doesn't really add up. So they split the Dancer off to be a melee guy or party face support character while keeping the Bard as just a weird music magician.
For what its worth I'm about 99% sure the Red Mage in Final Fantasy I is supposed to represent a classic DnD Bard and the cultural distinctions made it necessary to retranslate the name alongside White Mage and Black Mage.
Right, but the idea of the Bard RPG trope combines a couple of culture-specific Western European ideas of warrior-poets and use of music on the battlefield that doesn't translate as much in Japan, at least from what I can deduce from Jappo consumer fantasy media.
>lets the wizard take less enchantment spells >helps the cleric by having their own healing and buffing spells >lets a Rogue specialise more in thief skills and can excel as a party face >medium BAB means they can still contribute to combat when out of spells >+1 is considered so broken that 5e removes it
Bards are good once you have one of every necessary class archetype, since their flexibility and jack of all trades nature makes them good as a backup.
>Bards are good once you have one of every necessary class archetype, since their flexibility and jack of all trades nature makes them good as a backup.
Good way to point out that they're a shitty hybrid class that has pointless overlap with more relevant core classes.
>+1 is considered so broken that 5e removes it
Seems like a weird thing to fixate on. +1 AB on cheap effects has been bog standard since at least 2E (e.g. Bless).
What's wrong with having hybrid classes, again? As long as you manage the balance of not letting the hybrid overpower any of the core classes its drawing from (and I'm not saying 5e specifically does this) then what's the issue?
it's just the typical /tg/ obsession of coming off as "old school" as possible and because multiclassing is a 2adnd thing and not b/x or odnd that means it's cringe or whatever.
That's literally it.
It's just a pissing contest, don't think about anything practical, due to how saturated the internet is with ecelebs you have to take a lot of positions that you see out in the internet as a way of gaining clout, fame and fitting in rather than anything that comes from actual thinking.
Bards as minstrels with magic fricking guitars is boring.
Bards as anyone with an artistic talent that borders on their universe's magic is the way to go, though depending on the setting the term 'Bard' might not work. I'd go with something like Savant or Muse.
On an unrelated note, this is literally the only thing that I feel DnD 5E actually got right.
Name a single game where this si true.
I'll wait (I actually won't).
Pillars of Eternity
The Bard's Tale
Wizardry 8
NWN2
ADOM
>captcha NWN24
>ADOM
Kek. The best or the worst, depending on rng. Seven League Boots nerf hurt the Bard though.
Yeah, definitely not one for beginners, but if you want to play the RNG gacha no other class compares. For an experienced player with a good race they're strong even with average skills, though, at least for an extended game because their high level class abilities are always useful.
The nerf isn't so bad, the early game is much easier in general now. It just means they don't instantly invalidate the movement powers other classes get like they ussd to. It's still a free wish for the price of a talent, not to mention guaranteed at the start of the game.
>NWN2
Are you taking about a proper bard build or some kind of red dragon disciple frickery where you take 1 level of bard
Both, that's why it's such a good base class. 3/4 BAB, good proficiencies, excellent skillset that synergises well with Able Learner, casting, and access to both party-wide buffs that are always on and extremely powerful abilities like Legionnaire's March at higher levels. Sure, for specific roles there are better options (if you want a pure blaster make a sorcerer, if you want to smash with big axe make a barbarian, if you like spending an hour prebuffing before every fight, cleric's made for you) but bards are good to great at almost everything.
They're also good for multiclasses, giving access to RDD (far better than in the first game, now that enhancement attribute bonuses no longer stack and you can take four classes instead of three) and being non-lawful which lets you access the best melee prestige class in the game. Bard is an extremely strong choice whether it's for one level or thirty, in a party or solo. Especially for the player character.
Song of requiem is also one of the best feats in the game, it does as much AoE damage as a blaster, and heals your party at the same time.
As for the best melee prestige class, do you mean Frenzied berserker?
>As for the best melee prestige class, do you mean Frenzied berserker?
I do.
On top of what the other Anon said, NWN2 bard song scales all the way to level 30 so it's stronger than you may think. And Curse Song doesn't count as an Inspiration so it doesn't interrupt your regular song, meaning you can buff all allies (including yourself) and debuff all enemies at the same time.
Bard has always been the target of jokes, but lots of people only joke because they don't know how powerful it can be.
NWN 1, assuming you have the PRC
What about the PRC specifically amps up bards?
Sublime chord, which lets bard cast 9th level spells and get access to epic spellcasting
Pathfinder, though in WOTR it's slightly outclassed by the barbaribard.
>sucking wieners, the class
RPG "classes" have stayed away from the role of cultural archetypes they were originally and this (and also "multiclassing") has been disasterous for bindu gems and bindu game community
Bards are definitely the most wrongly portrayed class.
Here's some real life bards:
>The life of Archilochus was marked by conflicts. >The ancient tradition identified a Parian, Lycambes, and his daughters as the main target of his anger. The father is said to have betrothed his daughter, Neobule, to Archilochus, but reneged on the agreement, and the poet retaliated with such eloquent abuse that Lycambes, Neobule and one or both of his other daughters committed suicide.
Here's a bit he wrote:
>One of the Saians now delights in the shield I discarded
>Unwillingly near a bush, for it was perfectly good,
>But at least I got myself safely out. Why should I care for that shield?
>Let it go. Some other time I'll find another no worse.
Here's a drinking song by another bard called Hybrias, based on his own experiences:
>"I have great wealth – a spear, a sword and a fine shield to save my skin. With these I plough, I reap, I tread the sweet grapes and am called master of my serfs. All those that dare not hold the spear and sword and fine shield to save their skin, all bow and kiss my knee, calling me master and great king"
And they're definitely one of the most useful classes in D&D 5e right now.
>And they're definitely one of the most useful classes in D&D 5e right now
This is true, my bard saved the group on multiple occasions in solasta
Only in Wizardry
Bard
>can't cast awesome spells
>has to play a fricking lute while fighting
>can't take a hit
>can't hit anything
>has to sucks wieners to be of any value otherwise
Anyone else also find the Bard class concept so funny? Imagine you and your companions fighting to death and then you look at your side and then you see your friend just blasting out tunes nonstop while dodging attacks lmao I would just lose my sides in the middle of the fight
That just makes Bards extra cool.
>a dragon appears, what do you do?
>Fighter: I slash him with my +15 Greatsword of Overcompensation!
>Wizard: I conjure an arcane lightningbolt from the aether and cast it at him!
>Druid: I summon the awesome forces of nature to overwhelm him!
>Bard: I get down and drop some sick rhymes!
Bard's fame should earn him a posse, loyal homies that have his back and can take care of problems.
>take ranks in Perform (Rap)
>cast or get a gold chain of Persistent Undersong so you can use Perform in place of Concentration in skill checks
>take the maneuvers from Tome of Weaboo Fightan Magic that let you use Concentration for your saves and damage rolls
Absolute best way to play D&D. Your DM might throw a chair at you when you diss a fireball so hard it fizzles out, but it's very much worth it.
4e tried to give them a bit of a revamp with Warlord but it didn't catch on and they eventually added bard again. I agree that a combat lutenist is inherently comical. Not always the mood you're going for in a campaign.
Singing and drums have historical precedent in combat, mostly for armies. Once you pull out an oboe in the middle of a pitched battle you start to lose me though.
I find it hard to believe Warlords were ever supposed to actually replace Bards. Yeah they kinda fill the same niche but they completely lack the magic aspect of Bards, as well as the "jack of all trades" role fantasy.
Do people actually try to use bard as an all-rounder in D&D games? I always thought about him as a "melee guy who knows some spells" or "melee guy who knows how to pick locks and disable traps without being a rogue wet noodle". You just can't turn him into an effective melee/rogue/magic all-in-one package.
If you're not using your spells you're only playing half a character. You'll never be a primary spellcaster but Bards get some great buff and utility spells in any edition.
I guess the problem is that part of a Bard's skillset just doesn't translate well to video games.
You don't really need that high of a CHA score thanks to enhancement bonuses, nor do you really need any spellcasting feats since you're not really going to be casting any offensive spells.
In pen and paper? People either don't use bards at all, or use the class for roleplaying reasons rather than it combat efficiency.
Regardless, D&D movie makes bard the protagonist so the class is still valued by the game makers and presumably is here to stay.
That's a ridiculous take.
That's what military bands do
why is Dancer relegated to JRPGs? Bard and Dancers are a pretty good pairing
Whites can’t dance
I think its a cultural thing, Japanese don't have a historical equivalent to medieval minstrels so the idea of 'magic instrumentalist' who is also 'melee guy' and 'party face' doesn't really add up. So they split the Dancer off to be a melee guy or party face support character while keeping the Bard as just a weird music magician.
For what its worth I'm about 99% sure the Red Mage in Final Fantasy I is supposed to represent a classic DnD Bard and the cultural distinctions made it necessary to retranslate the name alongside White Mage and Black Mage.
Japan had travelling musicians, of course they weren't a practically high status thing like the troubadours who played for nobility in Europe.
Right, but the idea of the Bard RPG trope combines a couple of culture-specific Western European ideas of warrior-poets and use of music on the battlefield that doesn't translate as much in Japan, at least from what I can deduce from Jappo consumer fantasy media.
>bards
>get half the spells of a wizard
>party gets +1 to hit
>enemy can be stunned for 2 rounds if they are humanoid race AND fail a save
Wow!
>lets the wizard take less enchantment spells
>helps the cleric by having their own healing and buffing spells
>lets a Rogue specialise more in thief skills and can excel as a party face
>medium BAB means they can still contribute to combat when out of spells
>+1 is considered so broken that 5e removes it
Bards are good once you have one of every necessary class archetype, since their flexibility and jack of all trades nature makes them good as a backup.
>Bards are good once you have one of every necessary class archetype, since their flexibility and jack of all trades nature makes them good as a backup.
Good way to point out that they're a shitty hybrid class that has pointless overlap with more relevant core classes.
>+1 is considered so broken that 5e removes it
Seems like a weird thing to fixate on. +1 AB on cheap effects has been bog standard since at least 2E (e.g. Bless).
What's wrong with having hybrid classes, again? As long as you manage the balance of not letting the hybrid overpower any of the core classes its drawing from (and I'm not saying 5e specifically does this) then what's the issue?
it's just the typical /tg/ obsession of coming off as "old school" as possible and because multiclassing is a 2adnd thing and not b/x or odnd that means it's cringe or whatever.
That's literally it.
It's just a pissing contest, don't think about anything practical, due to how saturated the internet is with ecelebs you have to take a lot of positions that you see out in the internet as a way of gaining clout, fame and fitting in rather than anything that comes from actual thinking.
Because it eventually becomes a more or less free greater heroism.
Bards as minstrels with magic fricking guitars is boring.
Bards as anyone with an artistic talent that borders on their universe's magic is the way to go, though depending on the setting the term 'Bard' might not work. I'd go with something like Savant or Muse.
On an unrelated note, this is literally the only thing that I feel DnD 5E actually got right.