fps dilemma

>gaymers dislike bullet sponges of Fallout or Division because it's immersion breaking
>gaymers also dislike being 1 tapped like in EFT or Siege because too hardcore, no chance to fight back.
Then what the hell do they want?

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    optimal regular fps ttk is at 3-4 hits @ 600-900 rpm
    arena fps and other faster movement focused games can get away with higher ttk

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      A good game will have a variable TTK that is difficult to achieve. but very quick when you're able to hit it.

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >both sides still have massive active communities

    Gaming is too popular for opinions to matter anymore. It's only about marketing and hype. I hope you enjoy this hell.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I wonder how vanilla stalker and red orchestra 2 managed to have perfect gameplay despite being two different games... maybe the devs merely wanted to make fun games? no, it can't possibly be that... we better make our game le hardcore so that literal children market it for free...

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I dont mind the ttk in siege, it's the fact that there's 150 different corners in a room you can get shot from combined with it

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Use your gadgets/drones/throwables.
      Play intel operators.
      Only take 50/50 gunfights as a last resort, always make an advantage.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >WOW, this enemy's health is just right. what a finely crafted health pool.
    obviously you're never going to hear praise about such a particular detail, it sounds autistic as shit.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      this. when games get it right (and this is different from game to game, totally depends on context) people simply like the game and praise it for all sorts of things. nobody is going to say "it gets TTK just right" or any variation of that.

      optimal regular fps ttk is at 3-4 hits @ 600-900 rpm
      arena fps and other faster movement focused games can get away with higher ttk

      they can not only get away with it, they need it. if you want to know what AFPS with low TTK would feel like just play instagib in Quake. totally braindead mode, fun for about 5 minutes while listening to music. all the depth in weapon selection and positioning and dodging comes from high TTK. with low TTK the combat is reduced to "shoot first" so you only have preaim and reaction time and the latter can't even be improved, except by buying more expensive hardware.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        the core problem is guns are boring as frick and gun enthusiasts are mentally ill, so they try to push realism and low ttk and it's just not fun and for some reason nobody can grasp that a back and forth fight is more fun and that's why fantasy games are universally more popular than non fantasy to the point that even games with guns are shoving magic into them now.
        You can't ignore the reality that guns are boring and make for sucky combat, you can only obscure it with little tricks

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Guns can be "fun" if you appreciate tactical plays. Not talking about run n gun type of plays.
          Positioning, risk management, angle of fire, maneuvering, etc.
          And I fully admit, all of these can also be found in fantasy settings.
          But the sudden death that guns give, being schizophrenic over all possible angles the enemy can fire from? The suspense and thrill are where the fun is at.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        yeah, afps definitely need higher ttk but there's a middle ground of games with faster movement that would work both with lower and higher ttk.

        that said, i've got a theory that if you were to choose other resources for an afps (e.g. a focus on positional / defensive resources that don't increase ttk per se but can be used for tactical effect on the map) and adjusted the game mode a bit, you'd once again be able to reduce ttk without the gameplay feeling stupid, but it certainly hasn't been tried yet.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >positional / defensive resources that don't increase ttk per se
          sounds self-contradictory. tactical effect on the map? if killing you hasn't gotten any harder than before then there is no tactical effect to whatever "resource" you've supposedly gained, I can just kill you like I was going to all along. what am I overlooking?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            there are mechanics that don't increase ttk but still make it harder to kill you, e.g. temporary area denial (smokes, walls or traps) or movement effects, just from the top off my head. adjusting the game mode to increase the stakes of a death may also be needed.
            to be clear, i'm not at all convinced that this can work, it's just a thought i had that prevents me from definitely stating that afps necessarily cannot have low ttk.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              pickups that buff movement are always interesting and there are games that have this. for instance QC has various active abilities like the teleporting orb and there are these hour glass pickups that recharge your active ability. in QC these are not so important because most of the control lies in pickups that directly grow your hitpoints. but still, it's there and it does add more depth.
              area denial is also interesting but typically results in sort of unfun sandbagging type strategies, they inherently slow the pace down. it's dangerous to incentivize behaviors that slow the pace down in an AFPS.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      since when is "wow, this game's balance is just fricking perfect" something people do not say?
      actually nevermind, I have a better question for you: how does it feel like to be clinically moronic?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        nta but
        >since when is "wow, this game's balance is just fricking perfect" something people do not say?
        since what people say about games with good balance is actually
        >this tiny detail is still not perfect, they should change that.
        the only people who THINK about game balance are going to find a flaw. and the normiecattle does not think of game balance as a concept at all so they won't praise it.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >normiecattle
          >normie
          stopped reading as soon as I noticed that term. consider suicide, normalBlack person.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >since when is "wow, this game's balance is just fricking perfect" something people do not say?
        Since fricking ever

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I've never seen anyone claim a videogames balance is perfect outside rock paper scissors

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >since when is "wow, this game's balance is just fricking perfect" something people do not say?
        that's not what i said lil bro. balance is a very nebulous thing. when people praise "balance," they are praising 100 different things. nobody specifically praises health.
        >clinically moronic
        well meme'd my good sir. you must read a lot of greentexts, haha! i just LOVE the 'character' of Ganker, you know, the little Gankerisms make everything so DYNAMIC and EDGY. FUCCCKKKKKK i loooooveeee thinking about Ganker!

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          delicious butthurt

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    they want other people to get one tapped but not them

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    is that vostok?
    fallout and stalker are single player so why compare with multiplayer games
    different rules
    fallout modded into stalker/efp with maim, true damage etc to remove bullet sponginess is perfect
    you get one shot without a helmet, with a helmet you get rekt but can still survive
    a single hit can be non lethal but a major penalty because bleed or pain
    if you react fast enough you get a second chance to reposition and take cover but still have to deal with your frickup
    combine in depth gear protection system with scarce resource management and in depth medical system
    degraded armor condition, rare bandages

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Suppression and inaccurate weapons.

    Games do not do guns well, aiming and shooting IRL is exceptionally hard and games make it too easy. Instead of crutching on HP bars crutch on suppression effects and inaccuracy. It'll turn the game into firefights where you are continuously shooting at the enemy, pinning them down, while team mates attempt to either finish them off with flanking.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      squad recent update had suppression mechanics, that should work well for larger team based multiplayer shooters
      makes less sense for small teams (eft) or single player (fallout, stalker, vostok)

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >squad recent update had suppression mechanics
        Well that is interesting, thanks anon I will have to blow the dust off the game and try it again.

        I think it would still work for smaller and solo games though. In a game like ETF it would mean more about area control and pushing people away from where you are rather than outright killing them, so you can get to loot and control them.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      if you dial up the spread on vidya guns you get the HL2 SMG feel, you get guns that feel like pea shooters until you get very close.
      realism is not an argument. real gun fights aren't even FUN so why should a video game emulate them accurately? oops, you caught a stray bullet and the game uninstalled itself instantly.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Let me rephrase, the way we think about guns just being DPS is dated and there are concepts in the real world which we could borrow from; i.e. suppression, fear and inaccuracy.

        Its not just about spread its about making firefights. Helldivers 2 actually does this pretty well in that the AI are accurate if you are not shooting at them but become less reliably if you shoot back even if you miss and are just shooting around them.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      squad recent update had suppression mechanics, that should work well for larger team based multiplayer shooters
      makes less sense for small teams (eft) or single player (fallout, stalker, vostok)

      also stalker had weapon inaccuracy, combined with pseudo realistic ballistics
      garbage hobo pistols that dont shoot straight, or having to correct long range shots to account for bullet drops

      weapon sway with stamina management is also good way to add pseudo realism while tying it to gameplay mechanics and balance/trade offs, reduce accuracy based on player's action rather than on the gear itself (can combine both)

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >inaccurate weapons
      "damn this plays like shit. I'll guess I'll tell my friends about this"
      >your shitty game flops

      if you dial up the spread on vidya guns you get the HL2 SMG feel, you get guns that feel like pea shooters until you get very close.
      realism is not an argument. real gun fights aren't even FUN so why should a video game emulate them accurately? oops, you caught a stray bullet and the game uninstalled itself instantly.

      >real gun fights aren't even FUN so why should a video game emulate them accurately
      ever heard about Red Orchestra or Rising Storm 2
      ever heard the people that play them mention how much fun they had with them
      ever heard about there is a whole genre about realistic fps that is enjoyed by loads of people

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >damn this plays like shit. I'll guess I'll tell my friends about this"
        >>your shitty game flops
        meanwhile in reality
        >make game with inaccurate guns
        >make it look pretty
        >morons like you will play it whilst pretending to be gun snobs
        >game makes millions
        welcome to the CoD ecosystem

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >morons like you will play it
          in your dreams, Black person
          why would someone that likes tactical fps be interested in the slop you're peddling
          kindly consider suicide, thanks

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Red orchestra is crap. It’s just morons pretending to have fun because of muh gun autism. Same level of delusion as people who enjoy open world RPGs.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          pretending to have fun sounds as stupid as "artificial fun". I'll ask you as well: how does it feel to be clinically moronic?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Sounds moronic but somehow people are still buying slop like the assassins creed

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It is pretty easy to shoot a man sized target 250m away with a well maintained rifle.
      The main problem with all gun games is that people have 0 fear for their digital lives.
      A machineunner putting down 5 round burst suppressive fire unto enemy position isn't a threat in vidyas. He's just an idiot giving away his position. When in reality, suppression and volume of fire are king.
      Then there are people who would casually side strafe in front of doors to clear out rooms camped by opponents. Which is an insane thing to do IRL, but makes sense in vidya due to peeker's advantage.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        reminder that peeker's advantage is only proportional to the ping of the person getting peeked, not to that of the peeker. most people have an incorrect understanding of what peeker's advantage is so they blow its significance out of proportion

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          this really isn't true, anon. it could be true in a highly server authoritative game but in most shooters the high ping player will get to peek AND SHOOT before the server even finds out that he's peeking. the server can't tell the other player that he's peeking yet, meanwhile he's already shooting.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            see, you are a perfect example for a person who has an incorrect understanding of what peeker's advantage is. it's an easy mistake to make, so i don't blame you.
            both the peek and the shot are delayed by the peeker's ping. the time that the person getting peeked has to react is exactly the delta between peek and shot + their own ping to the server.
            if the ping of your opponent (the person peeking) is 100ms and yours (the person getting peeked) is 10ms, then they will start shooting you before you can see them, but their shots will also only register with the server after (shot time - peek time) + 50ms. when the peek arrives at the server, it takes 5ms for the server to display it to you, and then an additional 5ms for your reaction to the peek to arrive at the server again. hence you have a time of (shot time - peek time) + 10ms to react.

            that said, there's an orthogonal effect in games that actively let you dodge opponents where the person peeking has an easier time hitting you if their ping is high because it will take longer for your dodges to arrive on their end, but this hardly has an analogue in reality so can't possibly be the thing that was meant here.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              *(shot time - peek time) - 10ms to react obv

              the important bit here is that if the ping of the person getting peeked was 0ms, there would be no peeker's advantage at all

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              what you're forgetting is that modern games actively create peeker's advantage by favoring high pingers when deciding who shot whom first. they want to make things "more fair" so they give high pingers some leeway. if you're the high pinger and getting peeked this makes things more fair indeed. but if you're the high pinger and the peeker you get an unfair advantage.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >modern games actively create peeker's advantage by favoring high pingers when deciding who shot whom first
                certainly not any that i know of (happy to accept sources proving me wrong, though). note that doing so would require delaying all hit registration by X ms where X is your cutoff latency for high ping leeway, so this is a *huge* responsiveness trade-off to make. most modern fps games use a mixture of extrapolation and lag compensation / backwards reconciliation (or a subset of these), neither of which facilitate peeker's advantage.

                it's worth pointing out that 99% of the netcode related media floating around in gaming circles is moronic crap by people who have stunted brains and dropped out of high school, so it's very hard to find reliable info on what particular games do and do not do w.r.t. netcode in casual media

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I don't know enough to speak in technical terms but I've been following various MP games for many years. the most common mechanic seems to be that the server essentially gives low pingers fake lag. so in your example you have 5 ping but what you're receiving is outdated info from 40 ms ago any way. the server is basically simulating a 40 ping for you to equalize the situation for different players. this is how QC does it which is why the game feels worse for all players on a server when just one of the connected players has a shit ping.
                in QL there was a command called "timenudge". look into that, I think it was similar to the fake lag QC uses, except the user actually could change this value (within limits set by the server).

                there's all the weird netcode commands in CS, CSS and maybe even in CSGO back in the day where you could make yourself harder to hit by just tweaking values that should have never existed. not sure if that was a form of fake lag as well. I think it was about "rates" so more like making your hitbox warp all over the place instead of animate smoothly, forcing implausible misses as long as you're moving.

                all my examples have been highly competitive PC centric games. I believe the netcode frickery is much, MUCH more egregious in the console space because pings tend to be much worse and console MP has been about P2P at least until 8th gen.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                yeah qc is the only game i know of where people alleged that it used a large input buffer on the server side at some point (though probably not to equalize the playing field, but for other dumb reasons). i'm not sure if they ever officially acknowledged this allegation though? i don't know any other games that did this though.
                timenudge affects interpolation and has nothing to do with this.

                cs/css/csgo have very simple backwards reconciliation netcode (cs2 is a bit more complicated, but there's nothing in there that's really new either and nothing that favors peeker's advantage). the config settings you mention are probably also related to interp and don't affect peeker's advantage.

                > I believe the netcode frickery is much, MUCH more egregious in the console space because pings tend to be much worse and console MP has been about P2P at least until 8th gen.

                most of the major titles that i know of use straight forward netcode. iirc battlefield is an exception but i also can't find the dice research paper on it that i read years ago anymore to provide more details.

                in general, i see the term "peeker's advantage" mostly come up in the context of games that are mostly about peeking, like cs and r6, and those use the kind of netcode where peeker's advantage is proportional to the ping of the person getting peeked.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >though probably not to equalize the playing field, but for other dumb reasons
                what other reason could there be? imo it makes sense that they would go this route because playing QL on a ping higher than ~35 sucked serious ass. I played on 60 ping for 2 years and when I finally moved and had a good ping it was like playing a different game for the first time. not remotely the same experience.
                meanwhile in QC no such difference exists. if I play on high ping (by connecting to NA servers from EU, accidentally every time a patch resets my server list) the main difference I notice is that my LG tracking becomes way better. it's impossible to dodge the LG of a high pinger. but the basic experience is smooth, fluid, no hiccups, just a little rollback for shots that happened on my screen but never made it to the server in time to have an effect.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >what other reason could there be?
                you can smooth out inputs on the server side more nicely when you accumulate them in a buffer. it's a stupid idea though since basic client side interp is usually good enough for all intents and purposes.

                >imo it makes sense that they would go this route because playing QL on a ping higher than ~35 sucked serious ass. I played on 60 ping for 2 years and when I finally moved and had a good ping it was like playing a different game for the first time. not remotely the same experience.
                that's what we use backwards reconciliation and extrapolation for (typically up to some latency compensation cutoff). both of those have disadvantages as well, but they don't affect peeker's advantage.
                the disadvantage of backwards reconciliation is that you can still die to enemy damage after getting to cover, so you can't overdo it or otherwise it will be unfair to people with low ping playing against people with high ping. the disadvantage of extrapolation is that your hit registration gets less precise, so you can't overdo it with extrap either because otherwise the game becomes unplayable for people with high ping.
                combining both is a nice balance; most games only have backwards reconciliation though and it works well enough for slower games.

                >it's impossible to dodge the LG of a high pinger
                this is why reasonable netcode puts a cap on backwards reconciliation, so dodging won't get entirely impossible and beyond some point high pingers simply need to start leading the uncompensated portion of their ping.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    stop trying to please everyone. fallout was fine, i played on the hardest difficulty and can say that because i aimed for the head. "hardcore" mode where everything dies in 1 hit is lame.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    To win.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The most satisfying gameplay comes from "realistic" damage models in games like Red Orchestra 2 and Rising Storm 2. The main frustration that comes from dying with "no chance to fight back" is that you have a lot of individual agency in games like Siege and a single death completely alters the trajectory of the round. In a game like RO2 where you're playing a meat grinder, you are encouraged to die heroically, and very rarely ever feel frustration when dying, as it was usually a result of poor positioning, and it only takes a minute to get back into the action.

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    different audiences want different things, wow, who could've possibly foretold that
    frick off with making the industry homogenize all genres into one hyper marketable thing

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      man of reason

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Is it really that hard to land somewhere in the middle?

    Instead of bullet sponge enemies have them die in about as many hits as the player that way it feels even and fair. Bullet sponge enemies are just obnoxious, especially if you go down much easier.

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    they want to win

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There are multiple different communities within the FPS community who like different shit. The people that complain just want the game to be the way they want and most likely suck.

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Generally, I think the best course of action is a low TTK. If it’s a larger playing field, then a revive system is welcomed even if it’s an autistic milsim.

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There’s a healthy middle ground. Halos enemies can all be one shitted but only if you know the enemies’ weaknesses and use the right weapon on them.

    If everything gets one shotted with the same weapon, it’s no fun because you’re not really doing anything beside looking at the enemy you want dead.

    If everything takes too long to kill the devs can’t spam you with hundreds of enemies, which turns every fight into a game of peek-a-boo.

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Farcry or CoD, where enemies die to one headshot while the player character is a juggernaut.

  19. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    remove freely regenerating health

  20. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why do morons think realistic mechanics are fun in a game? Games are fun because they’re essentially digital sports or board games. The mechanics are designed around what’s fun, not what’s real. That’s why you have rocket launchers you can use to bounce off of, snipers you can 360 no scope, shotgun pellets that bounce of walls, etc…

  21. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Modern Warfare 2019 was literally the answer but instead of just sticking to one game and making in one concise live service they are wienering it up again with more shit yearly releases

  22. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Being one tapped in Red Orchestra 2 is fine because you get back in the action in less than a minute. Getting one tapped in Tarkov sucks not because you lost your gear, but because it takes 10 years to connect to a match along with the 50 layers of grind (some of which is time gated) you have to worry about. Most of Tarkov is spent not playing the actual game. Respecting the player's time is key.

  23. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So whats the status of Tarkov is it dead yet? last time i played i was killed by a guy waking in the skies

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They announced a ton of shit yesterday that is coming within the next 2 months so no. Also full release might be end of next year.

  24. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    People do play all of those games you mentioned though even if not everyone is into all of them. Not everything has to pander to the lowest common denominator.

  25. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Apex Legends has the perfect TTK. Don't @ me you know i'm right

  26. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Quake 3, you dumb zoomer. Perfect FPS already exists.

  27. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >gaymers also dislike being 1 tapped like in EFT or Siege because too hardcore, no chance to fight back
    I like that actually

  28. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    fallout sponges are good cuz its an rpg
    same with the division...

    1 taps are annoying since they reduce how viable other weapon types are

  29. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i kind of prefer cs because everything is balanced around economy.
    dirty bomb was also fun because it had higher health pools and hipfire accurate weapons but there were skill cannons like the revifle.

  30. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  31. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Fallout on normal difficulty. It's the default for a reason

  32. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I don't hate being one shotted. I just avid the bullets, duh. Also don't sander Fallout. Fallout 4 survival does this very well. You get one shotted and you can one shot other humans. simple as. Also the only real bullet sponges in fallout are the super mutant overlords from 3 but they were cool as hell.

  33. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Then what the hell do they want?
    maybe these players want different games catered to their ideal first person shooter experience
    me, i just want dual-wielding wherever i go

  34. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >gaymers also dislike being 1 tapped like in EFT or Siege because too hardcore, no chance to fight back.
    They dont like being 1 tapped from cheaters. Tarkovs cheating problem is absolutely insane and it will never stop. Tarkov without cheaters and Nakita being a greedy pig would be a lot different of opinions going around about it

  35. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Hunt is pretty good for that. Two shots from any rifle will down you, a headshot will kill you 99% of the time, shotgun blast at 5m will kill you, shotgun blast at 20 doesn't hurt very much, and pistols and low caliber shit are around 3 shots if you don't hit legs/arms.
    The generally low rate of fire that the game has helps keep this in check and it's pretty great to me.

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