How can you possibly even reason that the Physical Special Split was a bad thing?

How can you possibly even reason that the Physical Special Split was a bad thing?

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  1. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    caused power creep for no benefit to the game

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Nope, increased stats caused that.

      Most of the split-antis can't without blaming something that isn't actually the split.

      Based, that's exactly what the post above you did

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        > Nope, increased stats caused that
        phys/spec split effectively gave pokemon higher stats, soooo….

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          lightning fast base 160+ atk mons with busted 3 in 1 abilities caused that

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      sooo, just like spike stacking, choice items, setup moves that increase both an offensive stat and speed, abilities (most of the good ones being offensive), and natures?

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        >just like
        Yes, but way worse.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      if anything it ameliorates the issue of powercreep by having 2 parallel versions of attacks
      If there's a split and the new strongest mons have 150 of the offensive stat, you have 2 top tier mons
      if there's no split you have 1 true top tier mon

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Mightyena's STAB was not bound to its 60 Special Attack and Crunch used its 90 Attack instead
      How is this a good thing though?

      The Phy/Spe split was a good thing and what it added was new ways to make Stall seethe.
      No longer can you simply just run Blissey + Skarmory and wall out basically everything barring something like mixed Blaziken. Not only does Blissey have to worry about formerly Special types having Physical moves now, it has to worry about Physical attackers getting stronger STAB and Special attackers getting the much improved Focus Blast.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Charizard used Fire Blast!
        >Skarmory fainted!
        >Charizard used Belly Drum!
        >Charizard used Earthquake!
        >Blissey fainted!

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          Charizard gets and uses Focus Punch

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          Kewl, but
          >Infernape used Flare Blitz
          >Skarmory Fainted
          >Infernape used Flare Blitz
          >Blissey Fainted

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            >gen 4 is more poorly designed and braindead
            yes anon that's what I'm arguing

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              >It’s braindead because I can’t mindlessly switch Skarmory into every Physical Type and Blissey into every Special Type
              Gen 4 actually forces you to consider the type chart now, sending Pokemon that resist powerful attackers. You now have to consider a Fire + Fighting resist or a bulky resist to either.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Protect also exists, so even if a surprise banded hit melts a mon of yours you could always use another wall to scout what it’s trying to do next, then switch into an appropriate mon to try and get momentum against it.
                Y’know, the exact same shit you would do in Gen 3 when you’re faced with a banded Tyranitar or Aerodactyl.

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            >switching your special wall into a physical attacker that just used a physical move
            >somehow killing a Blissey in one hit unboosted with anything that isn’t a high BP fighting move
            What meta are you playing?

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            yeah no, I’m pretty sure Skarmory would tank a Flare Blitz even without Sturdy

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              You can’t say that anon… STOP… PEOPLE THAT HATE THE SPLIT ARE BETTER AT MONS I SWEAR

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                just run both Flare Blitz and Fire Blast :^)

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Shitposters really think this is an argument when resisting is a mechanic that exists.

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 288-338 (86.2 - 101.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
              252 Atk Choice Band Blaze Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 684-805 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Why are you switching your special wall into a banded flare blitz?
                You’d be shit at competitive mons, no matter the gen. Switch a fricking resist in moron.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                The point is that you can’t mindlessly use Skarmbliss to wall out the entire meta. You have to use something other than Skarm to switch into something like CB Infernape.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                The point is Skarmory's defense laughs at physical attacks, get fricked.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                I misunderstood, my bad
                this Black person

                The point is Skarmory's defense laughs at physical attacks, get fricked.

                isn’t me.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Yep.

      > Nope, increased stats caused that
      phys/spec split effectively gave pokemon higher stats, soooo….

      Yep.

      sooo, just like spike stacking, choice items, setup moves that increase both an offensive stat and speed, abilities (most of the good ones being offensive), and natures?

      Yep.

  2. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Most of the split-antis can't without blaming something that isn't actually the split.

  3. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Because uhhh... LE SOUL!!
    BITING AND CRUNCHING BEING SPECIAL MAKES SENSE, OK??

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Straw man
      Nobody who defends the Gen 2-3 Phys/Spec system denies that Dark being Special and Ghost being Physical was a massive mistake.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        You don’t think the elemental punches being special is completely moronic?

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          Why would I think special punches being special is moronic?

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        I'll deny that

        >Why was Ghost physical when the only Ghost move that involved physical contact was Lick?
        the expectation that psychics would generally have lower defense than special, so their counter should be physical to take better advantage of this
        >Why was Dark special when every Dark-type attack (Bite, Crunch, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Feint Attack, etc.) involved physical contact?
        gives bite more of a unique niche early-game, as a way to use your special attack stat before your pokemon learns special STAB (if they ever do, anyway)
        >Why did Hitmonchan do no damage with the elemental punches when it was supposed to be THE punching Pokemon?
        Hitmonchan was the more defensive of the two, having elemental coverage made more sense for its moveset than it would on the offensive one. That said fighting in general is under-designed in rby so I won't argue they designed the hitmons well.
        >Why did Shadow Ball reduce the opponent’s special defense, if it was supposed to be hitting them on their physical defense?
        Crunch has the same thing going on, and I actually don't see what the issue is with this from a design perspective. This way the moves actually end up more unique from psychic than they do post-split.
        >And literally everything with Sneasel
        gen 2 has a lot of weird shitmons that are hard to find, I could go on a rant about it but the short version is that I credit sneasel's problems to "gsc had completely backwards priorities for its roster of new pokemon" rather than "game freak secretly planned a mechanic and arbitrarily waited a decade to implement it but also designed everything around this mechanic before it was implemented"
        >It’s hard to believe that they’d be that incompetent
        No it isn't. It just isn't. Game Freak is bar none the least skilled AAA gamedev and it's extremely apparent at every point in the series' history. The fact that any pokemon game functions on a basic level is insane.

        You don’t think the elemental punches being special is completely moronic?

        they were very often given to special attackers like jynx, magmar, and electabuzz, hitmonchan is uniquely bad for needing them to have a purpose

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          >the punching pokemon is uniquely bad for learning punching moves that suck ass on it because there was no phys/spec split
          If you were going to argue for anything it should be for moves and movepools. It isn’t the physical/special splits’ fault that physical electric types have shitty stab moves, it’s Game Freak’s.

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            >It isn’t the physical/special splits’ fault that physical electric types have shitty stab moves, it’s Game Freak’s.
            >it isn't game freak's fault, it's game freak's
            Anyway, pre-split the idea with pokemon whose dominant stat is mismatched with its type was for said pokemon to learn good non-stab moves, or to just not play a pure-offensive role. Hitmonchan is a bad attempt at the latter, being the defensive counterpart to hitmonlee who got to have elemental coverage so he can survive more matchups. The main reasons he's bad are fighting being bad and chan not getting a passable special stat (which I would argue would be a fair change for the guy pre-split)

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              >Anyway, pre-split the idea with pokemon whose dominant stat is mismatched with its type was for said pokemon to learn good non-stab moves, or to just not play a pure-offensive role
              Then why exactly did some mons get good non-stab moves in addition to having types that matched their dominant stats? Why did some of those mons also have good support moves? If there's an interview to back up this claim, I'd like to see it, because playing a lot of Gen 3 has not reinforced this idea for me. There are some that do match it, namely Blissey, but it's a really broad generalization that I don't believe would hold water if you really break down all the tools given to everything up to and including Gen 3

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                He’s full of shit anon.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Then why exactly did some mons get good non-stab moves in addition to having types that matched their dominant stats? Why did some of those mons also have good support moves?
                Usually because said pokemon is harder to obtain, but I'd need specific examples to break it down further.

                He’s full of shit anon.

                I've been replaying the earlier games recently and it changed my stance on some mechanics that I used to think were archaic or misguided, I don't know what I'm doing to come off disingenuous.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                You’re missing the forest for the trees. It isn’t the phys/special split that’s unbalanced, it’s the new, stronger moves.
                And the fact that you think that Gens 1-3 were in any way more balanced just because they didn’t have the split is just ridiculous. Teams were LESS diverse if anything.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                I just realized you're misinterpreting my stance. I'm not anti-split, I just think non-split is also a valid system, and find some of the arguments against non-split to be shortsighted.

                I wouldn't say it's an inherently bad system change, but gens 1 and 3 are pretty well designed around the old system, and there's a few pokemon that really suffered from the change (as well as some that disproportionately benefitted).

                Many of the arguments against pre-split are things that I don't think should matter, like the one about dark moves being physical actions but dealing special damage. It just reads to me as people questioning surface-level logic instead of the actual game design. The split introduced more possibilities for how to design a pokemon mechanically but its nature as a retcon does also affect the viability of some moves on some pokemon and it's not always a good thing (nor is it always a bad thing).

  4. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    The actual reason is the split came from a DS game and the local schizophrenic must hate everything related to the DS games.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      this. it's mostly yawntroony doing her thing

  5. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    The only people who argue against this are contrarians who think they're special for being "rebellious" against their "boogeyman" (zoomers) and will cry that the "sovl" was taken away as soon Mightyena's STAB was not bound to its 60 Special Attack and Crunch used its 90 Attack instead.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Mightyena's STAB was not bound to its 60 Special Attack and Crunch used its 90 Attack instead
      How is this a good thing though?

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Because Mightyena is fricking garbage and needs everything that it can get

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Because Mightyena is fricking garbage
          The split didn't make it any less garbage though.

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            it did for an in-game run tho

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            >the split made crunch a physical move
            >mightyena is a physical attacker
            >before the split mightyena, a week pokemon, had to use its lower special attack to use crunch
            >then came the split, making crunch a physical move
            >mightyena, a physical attacker, no longer has to use its lower special attack in order to use stab (in this case, crunch)
            Yes Mightyena is weak but come on now, Crunch coming from Mightyena is much stronger on its 90 Attack as opposed to its 60 Special Attack.

            And before you pull the "why use a weak shitmon like Mightyena when there's Tyranitar", Crunch going off of 134 Attack as opposed to 95 Special Attackis pretty good.

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              > Crunch coming from Mightyena is much stronger on its 90 Attack as opposed to its 60 Special Attack.
              And it’s also now taking more damage from literally everything else in the game that got the same buff. Intimidate against Bug and Fighting, its only weaknesses, which were guaranteed to be physical before? OOPS now half the special attackers in the game can just completely ignore the stat drop and just 1HKO it with Focus Blast or Signal Beam with their super high special attack stats. Great.

              But I’m glad you agree Tera is a buff for Mightyena. Just play the pretend schizo game where only Mightyena can Tera and nothing else.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                >But I’m glad you agree Tera is a buff for Mightyena. Just play the pretend schizo game where only Mightyena can Tera and nothing else.
                I never mentioned SHIT about Terrestialization you smooth-brained frickass.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yes you did fricknugget stop being disingenuous. It was mentioned It was mentioned IT WAS MENTIONED

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Where in my post was it mentioned?

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                actual autism moment
                does your handler know you're posting on an 18+ website?

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Contrarianism yields an adverse effect on the human psyche.

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              Mightyena gets Shadow Ball which is physical, has the same Base Power as Crunch, and is practically the same as using a Dark tye move except it's not resisted by fighting and it can't hit Normal

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                actually crunch is 1.5x stronger since mightyena is a dark type and not a ghost type.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        You're right, weak Pokemon are not supposed to have anything good according to sovlgays.

        Time to take away Snow Warning from Aurorus. Maybe Blizzard, Ice Beam, Aurora Veil, Encore, Stealth Rock, and Meteor Beam as well for good measure since weak Pokemon having good stuff is blasphemy against the sovl gospel. And who could forget Ledian having Baton Pass or Meganium getting Pollen Puff in the Indigo Disk? That's downright sacrilegious paganism.

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          > You're right, weak Pokemon are not supposed to have anything good
          You haven’t actually established it’s good though.

          >b-but pokemon get moves
          False equivalence. You can hand pick what moves to give to each Pokemon to specifically buff them while touching nothing else, but phys/spec split is a blanket change to everything in the game so it’s not a buff for Mightyena. It’s like trying to argue Tera is a buff for Mightyena.

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            >mightyena's STAB using its higher stat isn't a buff

            Did you eat paint chips as a child, or just drink it straight from the bucket?

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              >mightyena now taking more damage from every single pokemon in the game and intimidate not being guaranteed to stat drop its only weaknesses, bug and fighting, isn’t a buff
              Correct.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                >other things got buffed, that means nothing got buffed!

                Mightyena can kill things much easier with Crunch running off its Attack instead of its Special attack. That is indeed a buff.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                > Mightyena can kill things much easier
                It can’t kill things much easier if it’s KO’d.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                What you're attempting to I GOTCHA!! with has nothing to do with the discussion.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                The discussion is that the phys/spec split is bad. Mightyena dying before it can even do anything is bad. Are you caught up now, zoomzoom?

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Is its speed stat so low that absolutely everything can outspeed it? Its defenses so low that absolutely anything can OHKO it? No? Then what's your point?

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                > Its defenses so low that absolutely anything can OHKO it?
                When you put it in a badly designed phys/spec split game, yes.

                Do you think Tera and Dynamax are good because they’re buffs for Mightyena?

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                How does the Phys/Spec split affect Speed in any way whatsoever? I have no problems KOing slower opponents with Mightyena's Crunch. You also seem extremely obsessed with Mightyena for some reason.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                > I have no problems KOing slower opponents with Mightyena's Crunch
                yes, probably because you’re a campaignshitter who’s playing against npcs instead of intelligent opponents.

                >dodged the question about tera and dynamax
                KEK

  6. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    One thing it did negatively impact is mixed attackers.
    Back in the day, sometimes your only coverage option was off your lesser attack stat. So, these 80 base secondary attack stats were pretty important to muscle through or at least dent a check. Lotta Mons had more spread BST because of this, and highly specialized attackers would need something else to be viable, like Gengar numerous immunities or Aerodactyls speed. Raw offense in a single stat wasn’t enough, hence Alakazams middling performance.
    Modern Pokémon basically overpower their checks, because their primary stat is all they need. Every point in their non main attacking stat is a wasted point in the BST. By providing so many options, it really simplified offense by making it so easy to get coverage
    I personally enjoy the special/physical split, I think it’s weird to avoid things like Ice Punch on a Hitmonchan, and things like Gyarados and Gengar avoiding their STAB moves never felt right, but any sweeping changes like this is going to have its ups and downs

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Speaking of Gen 3, btw. Obviously Alakazam wasn’t middling in Gen 1

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      this is mostly down to movepools, though
      either way I generally don't like how useless the non-used attack stat is on most mons.
      if I ever get around to making my romhack each mon'll have 6 moves total and at least one will be physical, one special, and one status so even on a pure physical attacker, for instance, that special move would sometimes come in handy and justify the special stat
      this would of course come with a big rebalance to moves and movepools

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        There’s more to it than movepools though.
        How would you deal with a bulky water like Milotic pre-split? Your options were Grass or Electric. A physically defensive Milotic did not have to fear super effective damage at all against the things it was meant to beat. Same goes for Skarmory, Swampert, Raikou, Scizor, Kingdra, Snorlax, Ludicolo, and a few others. There were type combinations who only had to fear one side of the spectrum for super effective damage (mostly Ground, Water, and Normal types).
        So it was often go mixed, or be hard-walled by a ‘Mon, one which there simply was no option to hit super effectively using your attacking stat.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Minimalist designs on the movepools huh?
        Not sure if I hate that or love that. Means you can make some real great-mons shit and shit-mons great just by their hyper limited selection, but I also don't get to mess around with my team all too much.
        Still, would play, just to see how it feels.

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          wouldn't necessarily be "minimalist"
          each type would have its various gimmicks defined. like poison can poison, and fire can burn. types without solid battle gimmicks would get one that makes sense.
          and just about (with few exceptions) ONLY those types would get moves with that gimmick.
          and most pokemon wouldn't get much more than STAB except where it really makes sense, like drapion getting bug moves, etc
          status moves would be similarly defined.
          also, the different methods of attack would be defined and given their gimmicks. like almost all biting moves can flinch. so what else? a pokemon can bite, slash with claws, headbutt (sometimes with horns), kick (really good with hooves), tail slap, etc etc
          then for special attacks there are beams, pulses, balls, etc etc
          would require a lot of thought to be tbh. would probably start with a small demo with a limited selection before trying to go full-scale.

          all of this might come with a big nerf to stab power since if a pokemon can learn a non-stab move it probably has good reason for it

          but there are some things in pokemon that just don't make sense and much of it comes down to movepools. why the frick can so many pokemon learn toxic, for instance? why are ice beam and earthquake so goddamn common? are they easy techniques to perform?

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        I think the main issue this presents is progression.
        These games are RPGs and people generally like when level ups do more than just increase stats.
        Buuuuuuut I want to see you try this, either as a romhack or an original monster catcher.
        I think this would pair really well with systems that encourage switching out party members mid-run, and I also question how it would pair with evolution in general.

        wouldn't necessarily be "minimalist"
        each type would have its various gimmicks defined. like poison can poison, and fire can burn. types without solid battle gimmicks would get one that makes sense.
        and just about (with few exceptions) ONLY those types would get moves with that gimmick.
        and most pokemon wouldn't get much more than STAB except where it really makes sense, like drapion getting bug moves, etc
        status moves would be similarly defined.
        also, the different methods of attack would be defined and given their gimmicks. like almost all biting moves can flinch. so what else? a pokemon can bite, slash with claws, headbutt (sometimes with horns), kick (really good with hooves), tail slap, etc etc
        then for special attacks there are beams, pulses, balls, etc etc
        would require a lot of thought to be tbh. would probably start with a small demo with a limited selection before trying to go full-scale.

        all of this might come with a big nerf to stab power since if a pokemon can learn a non-stab move it probably has good reason for it

        but there are some things in pokemon that just don't make sense and much of it comes down to movepools. why the frick can so many pokemon learn toxic, for instance? why are ice beam and earthquake so goddamn common? are they easy techniques to perform?

        >and most pokemon wouldn't get much more than STAB except where it really makes sense, like drapion getting bug moves, etc
        I would argue that it could be interesting for at least some pokemon to have wider coverage as their schtick, like Porygon or Kecleon since their gimmicks are related to type-changing.

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          true, gimmick mons would get more options
          in general it wouldn't be TOO restrictive.
          plus there would be more situations like bubble -> bubble beam where one move is literally an upgrade of an earlier one, and I'd give the earlier one out more freely than the later one.
          bite -> crunch is another example
          and the mega drain/giga drain moves
          that would be part of the progression, too, along with unique moves like most status moves or moves which do damage but are mostly about some sort of status

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >like Gyarados
      >avoiding their STAB move
      it didn't
      almost nobody did
      Gengar is an exception

  7. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I like Alakazam who it screwed over

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      ...and then proceeded to get one of the best Abilities in the game which more than made up for it losing Fire Punch.

  8. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Shut up or you'll attract that turbo autist posting smogon sneasel

  9. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I wouldn't say it's an inherently bad system change, but gens 1 and 3 are pretty well designed around the old system, and there's a few pokemon that really suffered from the change (as well as some that disproportionately benefitted).

  10. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Contrarian morons who don't have a sincere bone in their body

  11. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    introduced after gen 2 = shit

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      gen 2 has the arguable worst competitive metagame
      inarguably the least popular

  12. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I assume it's because of the few Pokemon it screwed over like Typhlosion and Sceptile.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Typhlosion and Sceptile were both mid pre and post split though.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Typhlosion was quite literally the superior Charizard before the split. Then they both sucked.

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          Charizard was OU
          Typh was UUBL

          Typh was inferior

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            but only because Charizard has a better movepool

  13. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Because now having an investment in the opposite attacking stat is considered a waste on "effective BST." If you want examples take a look at Flareon which was actually fine in RSE but unusable in DPP

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Flareon which was actually fine in RSE but unusable in DPP
      That's quite the stretched definition of "fine"

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Yeah, sorry. Fine was understating it, Flareon was actually the best Eevelution in gen 3 next to Jolteon

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Flareon was actually the best Eevelution in gen 3 next to Jolteon

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Flareon was actually the best Eevelution in gen 3 next to Jolteon

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Autists online are wrong loudly, so we should form.opinipns based on that? What the frick is wrong with you?
      The problem is people tend to look at a mons BST as like, a budget, that stats are allocated out of. As if the total is decided first, and then sorted from there. These morons see points in the off stat as a waste, because they're morons. If Alakazam had less Atk, it's not like they'd put those points into Special, that's just not how it works. It would just have a lower BST.

  14. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I’m half-convinced that Gamefreak always intended for there to be a physical-special split, and didn’t realize that they forgot to include it in the games until a decade later.

    Why was Ghost physical when the only Ghost move that involved physical contact was Lick?

    Why was Dark special when every Dark-type attack (Bite, Crunch, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Feint Attack, etc.) involved physical contact?

    Why did Hitmonchan do no damage with the elemental punches when it was supposed to be THE punching Pokemon?

    Why did Shadow Ball reduce the opponent’s special defense, if it was supposed to be hitting them on their physical defense?

    And literally everything with Sneasel

    All of it points to GF developing their games with the idea that the PSS already existed… except they forgot to actually put it in. It’s hard to believe that they’d be that incompetent, but… is it? Is it really?

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >It’s hard to believe that they’d be that incompetent
      no it's not
      look at how bad the new games are
      i'm not surprised gamefreak would do something like this

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Why was Ghost physical when the only Ghost move that involved physical contact was Lick?
      the expectation that psychics would generally have lower defense than special, so their counter should be physical to take better advantage of this
      >Why was Dark special when every Dark-type attack (Bite, Crunch, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Feint Attack, etc.) involved physical contact?
      gives bite more of a unique niche early-game, as a way to use your special attack stat before your pokemon learns special STAB (if they ever do, anyway)
      >Why did Hitmonchan do no damage with the elemental punches when it was supposed to be THE punching Pokemon?
      Hitmonchan was the more defensive of the two, having elemental coverage made more sense for its moveset than it would on the offensive one. That said fighting in general is under-designed in rby so I won't argue they designed the hitmons well.
      >Why did Shadow Ball reduce the opponent’s special defense, if it was supposed to be hitting them on their physical defense?
      Crunch has the same thing going on, and I actually don't see what the issue is with this from a design perspective. This way the moves actually end up more unique from psychic than they do post-split.
      >And literally everything with Sneasel
      gen 2 has a lot of weird shitmons that are hard to find, I could go on a rant about it but the short version is that I credit sneasel's problems to "gsc had completely backwards priorities for its roster of new pokemon" rather than "game freak secretly planned a mechanic and arbitrarily waited a decade to implement it but also designed everything around this mechanic before it was implemented"
      >It’s hard to believe that they’d be that incompetent
      No it isn't. It just isn't. Game Freak is bar none the least skilled AAA gamedev and it's extremely apparent at every point in the series' history. The fact that any pokemon game functions on a basic level is insane.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Why was Ghost physical when the only Ghost move that involved physical contact was Lick?
      because lick was the only non-fixed damage ghost move in gen 1 you moron

      >Why was Dark special when every Dark-type attack (Bite, Crunch, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Feint Attack, etc.) involved physical contact?
      because "special" and "doesn't make contact" aren't synonymous, you moron

      >Why did Hitmonchan do no damage with the elemental punches when it was supposed to be THE punching Pokemon?
      because it's a physical fighter and the elemental punches involve magic, you moron

      >Why did Shadow Ball reduce the opponent’s special defense, if it was supposed to be hitting them on their physical defense?
      because pokemon can use more than one move, you moron

      >And literally everything with Sneasel
      what about Sneasel, moron?

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Did you know that shadow moves in XD had a physical/special split despite all being the same type?

  15. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    The game became more homogenized because every type needed a physical or special version of a move.

  16. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Dragon Claw Sceptile was a thing of beauty.

  17. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    There are eonlt so many ways to arrange 5 stats in a unique way, making it 6 stats with the split multiplies to number of possible unique state spreads by orders of magnitude. It's better for that alone, more mons that don't have to feel like copies, like Charizard to Typhlosion was.

  18. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    must be nice to play gen 9 with phys/spec on and not posting shit

  19. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    It seems this decision has reached it’s melting point per se. If they want to continue pushing it they would have to use both attacking stats averaged. In the end, Monotypes should become stronger and Hydreigon would not change but Iron Hands would be weaker if they were using Wild Charge.

  20. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I don't like how it homogenized types and how they just made physical/special version of everything. Moves like Zen Headbutt and Psycho Cutter and Focus Blast barely even make any sense and only exist just so there's something for physical Psychic types/special Fighting types to mindlessly slap on. It allows every Pokemon to do too many things and it makes the game more coinflippy with having to guess what stupid nuke it has access to. There's still some remnants of it like special Rock moves having extremely limited distribution, but overall it's just lame.

    The best case would probably be to keep phys/spec split but cut move distribution severely so it's back at Gen 2/3 levels.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      this basically
      mons feel less unique when they all learn the same moves

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        That’s movepool distribution. It has nothing to do with the phys/spec split.

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          It has everything to do with the split, "movepool distribution" alone would not have the same effect without the split. Neither would min-maxed, broken items, etc.. it's all made worse by the split.

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            >”movepool distribution" alone would not have the same effect without the split
            Yes it would.
            You’re blaming the split when the problem has been powercreep all along. Focus Punch was risky yet powerful, now every physical attacker and their mom gets 120 BP Close Combat and 65 BP (~95 BP when it hits something with an item) Knock Off that they can spam to their hearts’ content with their moronicly overtuned base stats.

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              >Close Combat and 65 BP (~95 BP when it hits something with an item) Knock Off
              >physical and special
              Thank you for explaining the problem with a Pokemon using their more powerful stat for all their moves. That's why the split is the worst powercreep in the history of the games, this is exactly why it's bad. Bad thing made worse.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Fire Blast.
                Hydro Pump.
                Double Edge.
                It’s always existed, Close Combat is just worse because dropping your defensive stats is less risky then taking recoil or missing.

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          It has everything to do with the split, "movepool distribution" alone would not have the same effect without the split. Neither would min-maxed, broken items, etc.. it's all made worse by the split.

          yeah this has barely anything to do with the split
          like, Rock didn't become shit because there were special moves of previously physical types, it became shit because mons started pulling fighting and ground moves out of their ass.

  21. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    The split doesn’t matter. Functionally, the game is the same. All the split added was needless complexity (ie BLOAT) and “balance” to PvP that was already accomplished with abilities and additional types (ie POWERCREEP). Fans mostly liked the changed, though. So that’s a win. but you actually learned the meta, you’d realize the split was just another gimmick.

    Look at Pokémon Go. 3 stats. The TCG only has HP and attacks. The first game had 2 stats in one and that was OKAY. Number complexity doesn’t matter.

    Furthermore, a part of the game was taken away. Deciding between stab on a lower stat or non-stab and coverage on a higher stat was a meaningful choice. After the split, you only really want to slap a generic strong stab move, removing much of the strategy and choice from the player. In message board parlance: They dumbed it down.

    We’re do for a major shake up in the mainline games. I’d like to see LESS numbers and clone moves (which is all the split accomplished) and more roleplaying. Have a good day.

  22. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    i don't know why people go on and on about power creep anyway when the two oldest games in the series, RBY and GSC, are the most imbalanced and the worst by far to play competitively
    The disparity in quality between the best and worst gen 1 mons is absolutely insane. Tauros 1v1s like 80% of the pokedex without taking damage

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      You coincidentally leave gen 3 out of that discussion.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        >power creep before gen 3 was fine
        >but power creep after gen 3 was bad

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          What power creep?

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            the one that made alakazam, chansey, exeggutor, jynx, rhydon, slowbro, and tauros drop to UUBL. Oops that's 7 of the 13 OU mons in gen 1

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              >nerfs are power creep
              moron.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                and what nerfs did any of them get?

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                From gen 1 to 2? Lots.
                Special no longer being a single stat means that Alakazam's main STAB move no longer lets it take hits better from that stat.
                Chansey lost a lot of its offensive power and became much more passive.
                Exeggutor and Rhydon were still really good in gen 2.
                Jynx lots its ability to spam Blizzard reliably and abuse waking up from sleep requiring a full turn.
                Slowbro lost its ability to set up +2 special attack and defense in the same turn
                Tauros lost a huge chunk of its special attack along with its high crit rate and Hyper Beam skipping the recharge turn with a KO.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                >the gen 1 special attack/special defense split? ah yes, this is an example of nerfs
                >the gen 4 physical/special split? ah yes, this is an example of power creep

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yes, now you're getting it. Gen 1's split resulted in an overall lower power level. Gen 4's split resulted in a higher one.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                So what you're saying is everything should have stayed as it was in Gen 1 because it's the best gen.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Alakazam's main STAB move no longer lets it take hits better from that stat
                While Alakazam had a Special stat of 135 and his SpDef went down to 95, his SpAtk went UP to 175. It's not a direct nerf. All of your "nerfs" leave shit out like this.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Alakazam's Sp.Atk did not go up in Generation II. The only time it did that was in Generation VI-VII, and that's only if it Mega Evolves.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Why are you lying

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Formerly high tier Pokémon dropping to a lower tier due to the existence of a new generation with new Pokémon is the definition power creep.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                No it isn't.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yes it is

                You don’t think the elemental punches being special is completely moronic?

                >WHAT ABOUT THIS
                Anyway, yes it is, but they should’ve just been “special” moves that use a different stat than their type. As in, make the elemental punches physical attack moves but don’t create the whole Gen 4 Phys/Spec split.
                See

                Balance and strategy were much more straightforward since you could predict physical/special attacks much more easily. Moves like Counter and Mirror Coat were more useful, too. It also kept certain Pokémon in check that became overpowered when they got their STAB on the same stat they are proficient in. The only major problem with pre-split is that Ghost should’ve been Special and Dark should’ve been Physical. Only a few specific moves, at most, should have crossed the Phys/Spec aisle, such as Blaze Kick or Ice Punch. That way, you could still have partial Phys/Spec split without power creeping and overturning the entire system.

                Long story short, pre-split was better in concept but mishandled. Ghost should’ve been Special, Dark should’ve been Physical, and just a *few* specific moves should’ve been made to use the stat opposite of what their type suggests to add a more interesting variety to movepools and strategies, rather than applying the split to all moves. In other words, *every* single Pokémon having STAB with their highest attacking stat is dumb, and only things like the Elemental Punches should’ve been gimmick moves that cross the aisle.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Nerfs aren't power creep.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Jynx having its Special Attack raised to 115 wasn't powercreep?
                Snorlax gaining 45 points in Special Defense wasn't powercreep?

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Jynx lost more than it gained.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Is that why it's better in Gen 2 than it was in 1?

                There were way more Pokémon that lost their niche in competitive due to one special being lower than what it used to be when the special stat was split up.

                So... you're saying that they got powercrept?

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah it’s powercreep but not due to new mons more so due to their stats being changed and this went even further in Gen 3 with the new EV system

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                B1 viability in gen 1, B2 viability in gen 2.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                There were way more Pokémon that lost their niche in competitive due to one special being lower than what it used to be when the special stat was split up.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                How was Rhydon nerfed?

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      CHADros deserves it.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      gen1ou is fairly balanced and fun to play, if you actually take the time to study the metagame

      even more mons than you'd think that are tiered PU are good in OU

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        name one

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          Sandslash, surprisingly (as in, why is this in PU)

  23. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    You literally can’t. The only people who genuinely hate it are contrarians. The rest are shitposters trying to get (You)s.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >The only people who genuinely hate it are contrarians
      and people who are good at pokemon games

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        spreadsheet simulator is not pokemon

  24. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Balance and strategy were much more straightforward since you could predict physical/special attacks much more easily. Moves like Counter and Mirror Coat were more useful, too. It also kept certain Pokémon in check that became overpowered when they got their STAB on the same stat they are proficient in. The only major problem with pre-split is that Ghost should’ve been Special and Dark should’ve been Physical. Only a few specific moves, at most, should have crossed the Phys/Spec aisle, such as Blaze Kick or Ice Punch. That way, you could still have partial Phys/Spec split without power creeping and overturning the entire system.

  25. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    The pre special split games were more fun

  26. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Killed team variety, killed viability of mixed attackers.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Too moronic to not be bait.

      Why would I think special punches being special is moronic?

      Because you’re PUNCHING something? It’s a physical attack that does special damage. That’s stupid.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Because you’re PUNCHING something?
        It's not a normal punch though. It's a special punch.

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          >i have special fists

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          You’re hitting something with your fist, anon.
          That’s what a punch is.
          How is that not a physical attack?
          Are you going to argue that Crunch and Bite being special makes sense because it’s being done with evil intent or some shit?

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You’re hitting something with your fist,
            Yes. Specially. Do you know what "special" means?

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            It's not a punch, it's a fire punch.

  27. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >NOOOO WHY CAN’T MY SKARMBLISS CORE WALL EVERYTHING ANYMORE
    kek

  28. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >NOOOO THE SPLIT IS BETTER BECAUSE I CAN JUST MINDLESSLY MASH THE A BUTTON NOW
    kek

  29. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >I CAN JUST MINDLESSLY MASH THE A BUTTON NOW
    Because you could NEVER do that in Gens 1-3…

  30. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  31. 3 months ago
    Anonymous
  32. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I see that the phys/spec split is the new target for the discordtrannies.
    What’re they going to fixate on next? Are we going to have threads about how Gen 1’s smaller character limit in regards to nicknaming Pokemon is better then the newer gens because it made people be more creative or some shit?

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      gen 2 special split

  33. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I don't get it either. I can see taking issue with moves that were introduced at the same time. These would namely be Stealth Rock, the 120 BP moves like Close Combat, Brave Bird, Sucker Punch and Flare Blitz. The actual change in mechanics was a net positive for almost everything. A lot of mons lost elemental punches as good options, but physical attackers got them in return. Weavile was saved from being a pile of shit using Fighting/Ghost coverage moves just to cope with its typing. On the flip side, mons like Gengar and Gyarados got to leverage their STABs much better. Pre-PSS gameplay has its place, but I enjoy mons being able to use moves that one would expect based on their type

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Weavile was saved from being a pile of shit
      woah weavile was in gen 3?

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        Obviously not, I'm saying Weavile would be garbage had they not implemented PSS. It stands out as a mon in Gen 4 that would have been miles worse. I personally think mons not being able to do anything is a bad thing

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          >I'm saying weavile would be garbage in this fanfic game I made up
          wow what a compelling argument

          • 3 months ago
            Anonymous

            The point is that the split prevented more than 1 mon in Gen 4 from being shit. Being a sarcastic twat is not an argument in good faith. I notice you picked this particular sentence out of everything I said because it was about a hypothetical.
            >inb4 ok schizo, strawman, or some other permutation
            You know what you're doing.

            • 3 months ago
              Anonymous

              >The point is that the split prevented more than 1 mon in Gen 4 from being shit
              source?

              >b-but it's a hypothetical
              ok then I can claim game freak can hypothetically make gen 4 without the split and still have many pokemon be good by actually balancing the game properly. I win!

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                The source is that it's a Dark/Ice type. Stop being an obtuse moron. Your second claim might be worth considering beyond your shitty attempt at trying not to be wrong, except that they didn't balance the roster in prior gens either. I am very obviously looking at the mismatch that happens between Weavile's main attacking stat and its STAB categories in prior gens. Now if you want to name a different point instead of latching on to this one that seemed like an easy "win" in your head, do so. If not, be wrong replying to someone else.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                He’s being wrong on purpose so that you’ll reply to him, anon.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                >The source is that it's a Dark/Ice type
                Yeah I hate how awful Gengar is in gen 3 because of its Ghost/Poison type. How could Game Freak do this bros?

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                That's one of few examples, like Blissey, that conforms with this

                >Then why exactly did some mons get good non-stab moves in addition to having types that matched their dominant stats? Why did some of those mons also have good support moves?
                Usually because said pokemon is harder to obtain, but I'd need specific examples to break it down further.
                [...]
                I've been replaying the earlier games recently and it changed my stance on some mechanics that I used to think were archaic or misguided, I don't know what I'm doing to come off disingenuous.

                dude said before. It had a good ass move pool that could be leveraged without its shit attacking stat for its STAB. Gyarados is similar and Salamance is a pretty mixed bag in this regard. On the opposite end of the spectrum are Mons like Starmie, Swampert, Heracross, and Cloyster that get to use both of their STABs effectively and also have good support or setup options. So again, I think the split was good and the issues that came up in Gen 4 have more to do with U-Turn, Stealth Rock, and 120 BP moves with relatively low drawbacks. Anyway, I'm going to sleep so I can enjoy both Gen 3 and Gen 4 singles another day like a reasonable person. To the one explaining himself in good faith, enjoy your day. To the penis who just wants to bait me, frick yourself, cope, and acquire competence.

              • 3 months ago
                Anonymous

                Stop replying you moron, you're part of the problem

  34. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >arguing with discordtrannies
    The split should’ve existed since the beginning.
    Cope.

  35. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    holy shit what a dense Black person
    good thing the PSS has been a thing since 2006 so morons like you can seethe endlessly

  36. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Gengar had a good movepool moron.
    Weavile’s best move would be shit like Low Kick.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >weavile would have a bad movepool in this imaginary game I made up
      what a compelling argument

  37. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    Ted of Brainscratch Commentaries despises the Physical/Special split because his absolute most favorite Pokemon, Typhlosion, lost Thunder Punch as a special move.

  38. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I like how the baiting homosexual that hates the split still hasn’t given a good argument for why it was the worst thing ever.

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Because Mightyena can still be KO'd, which means nothing was buffed, which means the split was bad.

      • 3 months ago
        Anonymous

        I agree, Tera was a great buff for Mightyena since it can Tera Dark to KO things better

        • 3 months ago
          Anonymous

          It still dies instantly to every other Pokemon, which is why the split is bad.

  39. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    I don't think we can meaningfully have this discussion if people fixate on specific mons. Some will say
    >omgom! Fanfic meta!
    all day long, but the fact of the matter is that Smogon metagames are the best ways to play Gen 3 and 4. Given that information, you really can't be making a good argument if you aren't looking at actual trends and information about those gens to discern what effect the split had on movesets. I also think it would serve people to play random battles for both gens, at least 100 matches of each. You'll really feel the difference in how much utility each category of mon (support, walls, physical/special attackers) has. You'll also see the difference in utility that a mon has for its type alone. In Gen 3 randoms, for example, I find Rock types to be disproportionately effective just because they can almost always switch into something and their coverage is passable enough to bring something into 2HKO range without dying. In Gen 4, Dragons are similar. They resist a bunch, they get to use their attacking stats pretty freely, and you can see differences brought on by how strong Gen 4 moves are.

    None of this really matters. We're talking about a mechanical change that's now ancient and we can play whatever past Gen we want anyway. That said, if you actually want to sate your autism, it's worth feeling it out instead of parroting someone else, be they a splitgay or a typegay. Whatever your stance, don't bait people just to be a nuisance. At least be funny if that's what you're doing.

  40. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    post ELO, yawngay

  41. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    This is one of the most moronic threads I’ve ever been in.

  42. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    The split is not the problem its the movepools

    gamefreak is too fricking stupid and lazy to change them

    literally just change Gengar's affinity to learn Fire punch to Flame thrower
    its that simple

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Giving every psychic and ghost-type a fighting move to deal with their main checks was a mistake.

  43. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >his SpAtk went UP to 175

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      Ah, I noticed the mistake when I went to screenshot it. I flicked to the bottom of the page and saw the mega evolution BST without noticing.

  44. 3 months ago
    Anonymous

    >He just wants his gengar and magmar with thunder and psychic to be viable again

    • 3 months ago
      Anonymous

      >He just wants the game to be balanced again
      based

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