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How do we save the Monk?
More kicking rules
Can we see the sole?
That is brie larson's foot, isn't it?
don't play dnd
play unarmed swordsage
We plead with Pope to permit king's divorce.
Playing a martial artist is REALLY fun in GURPS.
>roll to be drunk
Male them more mobile, give them some support powers or something
He just needs a good assistant to balance out his neurotic tendencies.
>dnd is about magic items
>monk is "designed" around "being effective" while completely naked and unarmed
Either let Monks wear +5 handwraps and +5 robes or let their body actually get +1's as they level up
Also stop being weird about Unarmed strikes/Melee strikes/Weapon strikes. I shouldn't have to scour the "how to attack" rules to see if my Monk can use a certain feat with his fists.
You play 4E.
how does PF2e monk works? I only glanced at it but it feels like fighter with a single feat on monk already performs better
also they don't seem to reach the cool factor in movement and jumping abilities as I played in PF1e
I'll be real with you Anon:
1. I haven't played a PF2 Monk
2. In PF2, Fighters are kind of better than everyone.
>how does PF2e monk works?
three action system heavily benefits the idea of a speedy class like monk. you can dash in with your enhanced speed to some sensitive target, flurry of blows where if either of them hit they have to roll against a tough dc or lose some/all of their next turn due to being stunned, and then move back to your original space all in a single turn. this is something a level 1 monk can do.
the way character attributes and weapon attacks work in this game avoids a lot of the MADness that plagues the class and you have a nice variety of possible ways to fight and benefit from magic items like any normal character
> it feels like fighter with a single feat on monk already performs better
in the sense that the fighter will have a higher attack bonus with unarmed hits then the monk, sure. but you're not called "punching man", you're called MONK. you have all kinds of crazy mystical and martial nonsense that the fighter is not going to be able to pick up with a multiclass either ever or several levels after it would be worth taking. your ki magic powers are on the 2e equvilent of a short rest, except your short rest is 10 minutes so you're going to always have it up before any fight. heal half your health bar. drop a big anime aoe that you spend the entire round charging up. learn to jump so good you start flying or punch and grapple people from a distance. even the less blatantly wuxia powers still have a lot of cool shit like the one where after you grapple someone (one of the best martial debuffs/builds in the game) you can toss them to literally any space you want within a range based on your strength score so you can giant swing someone into a wall of flame.
they're strong and fun because they cut out all the boomer kung fu shit and just went full on anime like what anyone whos playing monk in ~current year~ would want.
Fighter can literally suplex you up in the air and then dive bomb. Monk can't
I hope you got those mixed up, because you can suplex dive bomb as Monk. Even has an over the top name "explosive death drop"
oh yeah, and monks also get caster proficiency increases faster then the fucking magus for some reason so you can be pretty good with a multiclass divine/occult caster archetype
that was only the playtest version of magus that had delayed caster proficency, monks are "only" equal in getting caster profiency (expert at 9, master at 17)
Play Shadow of the Demon Lord instead, it's an objectively better 5e.
>>Want a grittier, more efficient 5e? Try Shadow of the Demon Lord! now for the introductory adventure where you go to Bleeding Hymen a town marked by a statue of a giant penis and go into the tomb of Fecalheimer the sewage goblin who built his hall of shittery where fat naked women poop into ogres' mouths and you have to dive into the shit to get the key to unlock the door and fight the tomb guardian an undead naked woman with her dead baby and umbilical cord as a flail but watch out! she can cast a spell that'll make you shit yourself until your dick falls off and you die and don't forget to roll for corruption for seeing her otherwise you grow a third testicle
Gee, if only you could just ignore the setting like in every other system.
Monks will never be good because either a Fighter or Paladin will always be The Best Fighting Man. They simply won't let the eastern inspired class be the face of the western inspired game. This means the Monk can't deal more damage than them, be tankier than them, nor be more versatile than Fighter/Paladin (because versatility is overpowered, refer to Wizards). Rogue players, another popular classic, want Cunning Action to fulfill their skirmishing fantasies of flanking and then fucking off.
In this sense, the Monk is left no mechanical niche. The system is not deep enough to allow for a sidegrade to the Fighter, whose purpose is to absorb attacks and impede people from accessing the backline with AoO.
In this sense, you would be better off just reflavoring another martial to deal damage with their fists.
You just made this up.
Ive played an unarmed battlerager barbarian with the unnarmed style feat and i was putting the monk (who entered the game later) to shame. Not only I was far more durable I was also better at locking/shoving/tripping and dealing damage
Dude ragequitted because I refuse to rerol char when again I was in the campaign for 3 levels before him
Are you going to list any cons now?
>he pays any attention to any system’s base setting
I just use old D&D adventures and retrofit Demon Lord monsters as I deem appropriate. The alternative of trying to rework an entire class while doing the caster/martial balancing act is 1000x harder than just playing a good system and placing monsters that are CR appropriate.
At this point more has been written about poop in SotDL than is actually written in SotDL.
Monk > Mystic > Martial Artist is also incredibly fun. It's not as fun as SotWW's Fighter > Martial Artist > Dragon Fist or Mystic though. That one is also more monky in a D&D sense too. Although Rogue (Magic x2 (Soul)) > Mystic > Martial Artist in SotDL would still be closer but it's not as fun.
Personally I'd just increase the size of the Ki Pool without needing to take vows. The Vow of Poverty is fucked because you can't really imitate the power level of magical items as a Monk unless you homebrew some Ki-equivalent passives.
By not playing D&D.
Or only playing 4e, because that's the only time they got the Monk right.
Turn it into archetypes for fighter and barbarian.
I haven't played D&D in years and 5e is lame anyway, so I'll answer for 3.5:
- increase BAB to full, like Fighter: they're actually good at fighting
- icrease HD to d12: they're tough as a Barbarian from all the training they do
- increase skill points to 8+INT, like Rogue, and give access to all skills like Factotum: they're useful out of combat too.
Voila, a Monk that can hang out with the cool kids using the simplest house rules possible.
One of my first characters in 3.5 was a monk with 18 on dex (I went dexfag because I didn't know any better)
At 7th level I was hitting with +6...yes +6 even with a 18 on the hitting stat. 3 from 7th level, 4 from stat, -2 from flurry. Needlessly to say I wasn't hitting shit
monks don't have full BAB in 3.5? holy fuck that's lame
Monks not only didn't have full BAB they also had a -2 on top of their medium BAB
and also were d8 HPs and their AC sucked hard
And yet they had more potential for greatness than 5e (not on core though), that's how much 5e monks suck
>make monks fightier than a fighter, more barbaric than a barbarian, and more roguey than a rogue
Why play anything else?
With those tweaks, the fighters and barbarians still outdamage the monks thanks to weapon and the rogue still has lots of rogue specific options and sneak attack. The monk becomes more of a jack of all trades (except magic), master of none.
I guess. Still feels like a huge boost though.
They desperately need it
Have you ever played 3.5? Fighters are unfathomably garbage. Every single one of their class features is "Take an extra Feat from this curated list of garbage" every other level.
pathfinder 2e already did it
If we talking about 5e here's a few things
1: Increase martial arts damage. Dual weapon fighting is shit and Monks basically start out with dual weapon fighting. So boost all the martial arts die up by 1 so 1d6 all the way to 2d6. Does this mean that monks can do 3-4 attacks per turn with basically a maul? Yes. The point is that it isn't magical until 6th level and past that a fighter or paladin would have magical weapons that was busted.
2: +1 AC at 5th level +2 at 11th +3 at 15th this should also be on barbarian. Unarmored defense is alright but if we are going by how 5e balances their shit aka standard array you wouldn't have much defense though you are boosting dex but that means Wis is going to take a small hit. An extra +2 means at even if you got 20s in dex/wis you just have a max of 22 which is alright.
3: Each subclass must have a way to regain ki during a fight. Be it with open hand once per turn doing it when he punches or whenever a drunken monk does disengage. Hell once per turn when a sun bolt hits a person. This is a flavorful and mechanically good way to make the subclasses play differently than one another like actual martial arts practitioners.
4: Some minor stuff, Stillness of mind should be bonus action, Purity of body should be just diseases and come in at like 3rd level with the poisons being the improved version at 10th. Empty body should be greater invisibility but no resistances. Make the capstone better like seriously no idea how just do it.
This makes this a side grade to paladin really. Its pretty damn strong honestly a bit stronger than fighter with no magical items which honestly make sense if we going by the actual character creation for Adventure League or Point buy. Just look at paladin.
>ways to regain ki during fight
>punch something hard and shake fhand vigorously
>back up and state clearly that you don’t want any trouble
>sit down and wave opponents toward yourself
>shake dirt off your arms or feet with one strong gesture
Yeah, I like this idea. I like the BG3 "restore 1/2 Ki outside of combat" but short rests are so easy I never use it. Having it work in combat would be perfect, and I like the idea that different subclasses do it differently.
>punch something hard and shake hand vigorously
I know what you meant, but now I'm imagining this as a greeting.
You mean like the 'ask for a job with a firm handshake' advice that boomers give out was really ki gathering advice?
Is it not?
The Monk is a relic of a fad from 50+ years ago that happened to coincide with the popularity of original D&D but no longer has enough cultural relevance to justify itself. It has no niche in any of the pillars of 5th Edition. It has no role in combat that it does particularly well. It is a complete stylistic mismatch when placed alongside every other class. Rip the band-aid off. Implement martial builds that incorporate unarmed fighting and acrobatics, and let the Monk die.
the hong kong action films of the 70s and 80s gave way to anime directly inspired by them like dragon ball z being the new fad people are into. only its a not a fad because people are still into dragon ball 20 years later
dragonball is people hucking big lasers at each other, the punching is secondary and largely superficial
From which syste?
3.5? While I think it sucks early on, later on 3.5 released lots of stuff to help it. Enve a different class (unarmed swordsage) entirely. My fav 3.5 char will always be a tashalatorra monk
4e? I think they're pretty fun and also good at their job in 4e. But I havent play them intensively there
5e? they suck, 5e has finished and they pretty much ignored the class for the entirety of the run
Problme with 5e monk is the same as the earlyl 3.5 one. MAD, lack of magic items that he can 100% use, lack of feats he can use (and not like he had ASIs to spare) so while on early levels 1-4 he's decent, he starts to fall back an ends being one of the worst dps martials, with very mediocre AC and very bad HPs despite being mostly locked on melee
Then there's the new problem 5e introduced and that is resource intensive. A monk needs to spam ki to do stuff, everything costs him ki, and even with ki it sucks, imagine without it. Stun while good is not the panacea and I think the class has been nerfed on everything else due stun deceptively looking broken
Among the "fixes" that I've seen in my groups here are a few
11+double prof AC
Can use Dex with Athletics
starts at 1d6 damage
can short rest in 10 min starting from 7th or so level
at 11th level you deal +1d8 [pick energy type] on all your attacks (like in the 5e playtest)
By making an actual game with monks and playing that game.
I guess you're talking of D&D, so give them monk robes with an special armor proficiency for armor enchantments and magic gloves that give weapon enchantments to their super fists.
That way they don't have to act you can have an equipless dude in an equip based game.
It would depend on their fighting style, but I'd make the default Monk into a Martial Controller, to use the 4e terms. Throws to reposition, pressure point attacks to debuff, redirecting enemy attacks, weaving through an enemy pack and hitting everyone in range.
I'd change the Ki system to be similar to Incarnum, and let Monks create a custom Ki abilty every 5 levels.
I'd also make a Ki-less variant, that's more focused on weapons.
This is the best call, simply trying to make them brawlier will still run the same issue of 'they are worse/better Fighters' and Stunning Blow is their most iconic skill at this point.
Thanks. Additionally, I think it fits the flavor of martial artists better.
one thing I absolutely loved about a game I played long ago (I think it was 13th age? don't remember) was that they had techniques/powers/styles that were divided in 3 categories Opening/Flow/Finisher (I think), you couldn't use a finisher unless you used immediately before a flow, and you couldnt use a flow unless you used immediately before an opening. You could mix and mach them fo create several combat styles, each had their effects and suited a style of play. It's way better than having a finite resource that only funnels it into the best attacks, nobody is going to use ki for flavourfull shit when you have so few ki and some abilities are so essential to not be a waste of space (flurry and stun).
That sounds pretty good and unique too.
Name a better theme song for monks
The entire soundtrack for MK2 is perfect for a monk who chooses asskicking over almsgiving.
I think one of the big problems is probably that the “core” DND classes (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue) are designed to be good in combat, and any variation of those 4 basic ideas has to deviate enough to warrant being a separate class, which might mean less optimal design.
Also, if you took the monk’s fluff seriously and designed the class around it, “mastery of body/mind/soul/self” would just make you immune to a billion things like mind affecting spells, possession, control of body temperature, things that would actually make thematic sense
make a wuxia rpg
Plenty of those around already.
>play* a wuxia rpg
You don’t fighting with your hands and without armor went out of style in 200,000BC for a reason. That reason being everybody that tried it wound up dead.
It needs a complete rebuild. However, you can do this to help the 5e class:
- Ki is now monk level + wis mod
- HP is now +wis mod instead of +con mod. You keep fighting through sheer willpower.
- Flurry of Blows becomes part of your attack action and costs no ki.
- Step of the Wind is dash and disengage, not either or.
as far as 5e goes?
d10 hit die, monk damage starts at the same dice as the fighter unarmed style OR that fighter style is scrapped and we start at d6 and keep a similar progression
ways to regain ki in combat
grapple/shove with acrobatics instead of athletics
similarly, monks' jump distance uses dex
replace tongue of the son and moon with +1 unarmed strikes starting at level 8 that scale to +3 by level 17; potentially remove the "all saving throws" part of diamond soul; even one more save would be pretty powerful
restructure subclasses so they primarily focus on actually fighting and aren't shit
flurry of blows increases to three strikes at level 11
at level 17 flurry increases to four strikes; the bonus action unarmed strike after an unarmed strike increases to two unarmed strikes
As long as he gets magic items for fighting like Fighters get he's fine
The monk gets to be a competent fighter, rogue, and adventurer and has a unique place in any party because they are effective without gear. For the purposes of dungeon crawling, they are perfectly fine, and its you nogames theorycrafting mathbotting autistic chodes who imagine the monk isn't efficient in the game you dont play who are ruining the image.
What's the point of monks?
for capturing these feels:
Name a better theme song for monks
What system will me play a Lawful Evil Monk Sorcerer who throws fireballs, eats souls, and does fatalities
High Wis Monk/Cleric could probably be similar, with the right Domain chosen.
SotDL literally has a Sorcerer-Monk expert class, the Mystic, who doesn't get spells themselves but gains and scales off the stat that determines your maximum spell level. From there you can tune your novice and master classes towards actual spellslinging, probably taking a Necromancy-specialist class to really make sure their souls are yours.
And then a Poop Wizard makes you shit yourself to death.
Still better than playing Harry Potter in Strixhaven.
Countered by a Potion of Imodium
There Bruce Lee started a kung-fu craze during the 70s. One of the OG D&D players wanted to create a kung-fu character.
I've got the optimal way to fix this. Trust me there is no flaw or imbalance in this.
Everything the monk uses WIS for class-wise is now attached to CON. Hit/Damage are now both DEX.
We said fix monks not break game flow
Actual variation in what you can do and what unarmed archetypes you want to go into.
Take a look at pathfinder 2e monks or fuck the street fighter ttrpg for ideas, watch a bit of baki while your at it.
Though like you can just stop at pathfinder 2e monks they really do just got everything
Monks are already op in about 80% of the games where they appear
If you started fixing monks, you'd have to fix everything else too. Not just because of class balance, but because the many retarded design decisions in 5e come from a place of being fucking terrified of what might happen to the brand loyalist paypigs if they made the game slightly more complex.
The reason they didn't want to create some complex subsystem of ki point regeneration and management or make the monk seemingly more effective or give them a good mobility gimmick that lets them flip and roll around the battlefield is because they don't want to introduce too many unique subsystems that run the risk of destabilizing their shitty jenga tower of sacred cows and legacy mechanics even more than it already is.
Even if it would objectively only put Monk at equal footing with other classes, D&D loyalists would bitch and moan that it feels unbalanced that the class that has always been underpowered is suddenly so "strong", even if you mathematically broke it down and showed that it doesn't overpower other classes, gays would still piss and moan that they gave monk too many fancy new rules and it's unfair that other classes don't get that kind of attention.
Make monks like the fighters in Dungeon Fighter Online
Play 4e or leave D&D behind and play something like L5R or Weapons of the Gods.
The monk's already been saved, by replacing him with the Brawler.
Have WotC stop looking at Avatar for inspiration and have them look at real ass displays of kung fu. webm related
Use a system that has rules that allow the monk to be just as strong as any other type of character.
Let them cast and parry magic projectiles (hadoukens), range based on their wis.
MAD seems to be one of the problems that perdures no matter the edition in almost any edition. This makes that most of the time the class advertised as the balance between mind and body can't do shit
The lie that they are a "strong independent warrior who needs no equipment" is another, they need magic items like crazy, without them their AC is mediocre at best and for a melee forced class that's almost a death sentence
And 5e introduced the over dependance of scarce resource as another problem.
At this point I don't think is it possible to fix monks in D&D because D&D has so many rules that work against monk it makes it impossible for them to be a good class.
I could imagine stripping monk down to a choice of two attributes; str or dex, and con or wis.
I played Unchained monk, PHB monk with archetypes, 3.5 monk at the tail end of 3.5 and 3.5 tashalatorra monk at the tail end of 3.5. And I have to say the Umonk isn't even the second best
So far imo were like this:
Tashalatorra monk > PHB monk archetyped > Umonk > 3.5 monk
At the tail end of 3.5 Monk had lots of help, guess wotc realized their mistake and started to release really nice options for them, my Tashalatorra was a fucking beast, not only damage and survivability wise but also utility. I'm not even an expert at optimizing and still managed to make a dude who could deal 400+ damage if everything landed, I killed a Marilith in a surprise round thanks to karmic strike and hits for 80 damage each
Unchained is a pretty damn solid base class (that penalty to willpower though I felt it constantly), but I think its potential has been hindered a lot by not having good archetypes compared to the phb one which sucks but some archetypes are pretty damn good. If you have no idea of optimizing go full unchained though, is fool proof, but if you know what to do phb archetyped seems to come up top in my experience
Also never tried unarmed swordsage, I wanted to and even made a few chars but never managed to find a game in where I could play it. I feel it would be on a similar footing as my tashalatorra monk
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