How more deadly would astartes be if they applied modern military tactics with their technology and biological engineering?

How more deadly would astartes be if they applied modern military tactics with their technology and biological engineering?
I know that there are chapters and warbands that apply similar stuff. But imagine space marines that act like a SAS battalion or a combined arms fighting force.

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They'd get btfo by magic at some point or another. Its not a rational setting.

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Looking at recent history much less deadly.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    With the real time evolution of tactics we're seeing in the war in Ukraine, not much. It's impossible to advance without the enemy seeing you, and loading an armor penetrating round or explosive on to a cheap drone to kill your whole squad or vehicle is too good a strategy is pass up. Let alone full bore missile strikes or artillery barrages. There's a reason it's fiction, "real" space marines would be incredibly cost inefficient to produce because their survival rate would be more or less the same as a regular human.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It'd usually be a detriment because Astartes do not resemble any real military asset and have too much of a performance gap with baselines. Chapter Astartes do in fact deploy as breakthrough forces and special operation units in accordance with how one would use something with their profile in combined arms, but the chain of command issues that arose from coup-proofing after the Horus Heresy cause a lot of trouble for clear time-tables.

      Ceremite, Plasteel, and Adamantine composites brought passive defense via raw armor back up to viability, while there are historic security reasons turned religious doctrine behind why drones and precision guided missiles are relatively anemic in Imperial and by extension heretic/rebel doctrine and Orks' use of salvage. The Orks additionally have de-facto religious reasons of their own to oppose such automation, likely stemming from Old One optimizations against Necrons who are so laughably superior in this matter that trying it against them is a waste of effort.

      That constitutes such an incredibly vast majority of Astartes deployment that such an issue is simply not going to be reflected in their standard doctrine. Presumably much to the joy of Tau with a Seeker Missile surplus and Markerlights to aim them, as they are the ONE faction in a good position to do any of this.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Russia's answer to modern warfare in Ukraine is to just throw conscript bodies at the enemy until they run out of ammo and withdraw
      grim but it's working

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I see the Zap Brannigan approach

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >conscripts
        >throw bodies
        take a break from the BBC mate

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        That's the exact opposite of what's going on right now you doofus

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It depends on what exactly the armor does. Space Marine armor has a bunch of insane bullshit going on like 360 degree sensors that feed directly into the brain, they can be equipped to run totally silently, to the point of stumming out the noise of branches breaking underfoot, they can fire weapons without stocks from the hip and shoot one-holes at 120 yards. In CQB these guys would obliterate anyone.

      >but they're expensive!
      Yes, so you don't use them to clear fields of butterfly mines. You use them in surgical strikes where they can hit high-value targets and then exfiltrate. That's the point of them, they can be deployed from space anywhere, they have the firepower and the deployability to get in, the armor and skill to get out. Once their job is done, then the Imperial Guard can spend six weeks hammering the rest of the place into powder with 380mm cannons.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Cool story bro. It would be nice if the game reflected that.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It does. The 1,500 point game you're playing involves important targets. Often special named characters. That Hive Tyrant or Orc Warboss in the enemy's army goes down and it changes a war.

          Even when playing Imperial Guard you're bringing a higher concentration of elites, specialists and higher end vehicles than would be normal.

          If someone is playing an army of chaff they're probably still sitting on an important objective. They could be the horde haphazardly sent to counter a previous victory by their enemy. Whatever you want. Of course you might want the battle to be a pointless skirmish. Or you just don't care. Your call.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            tbf special characters used to be 2000 points and up only. Warhammer just has crappy scale.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            We have "important characters" in literally every game right now. Even if you play 1000 points game, you will still see Gurliman or other crap that should only be in Apocalypse, but Apocalypse is dead and GW want to sold miniatures, so we have a situation where Mortarion and Lion are fighting for a place in the bar every friday.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >There's a reason it's fiction, "real" space marines would be incredibly cost inefficient to produce because their survival rate would be more or less the same as a regular human.

      >human gets killed by a machine gun
      >space marine can only be killed by an autocannon

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Except that space marines can canonically be killed by small arms.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          only in extreme volumes that are eventually able to hit their tiny weakpoints
          needing a storm of fire from multiple guns qualifies as drastically more survivable than being killed by a single bullet

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Nope, in normal volumes.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              nah, normal volumes is what kills normal targets. It what makes them normal.

              Even if it only takes twice or thrice as much as a guardsman or orc it's still not normal.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Nope, normal volume kills space marines too.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                not on average, tho

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Got an example?

                Oh, before that. How many shots from a lasgun or other basic weapon do you think is normal for a human to survive? In canon, that is. I'm thinking 0-1. And is there an example of a Space Marine dying to that many shots.

                A boltgun could kill, sure, but that's not normal. Pulse Rifle might be your best bet. But I'm hoping for Lasgun or Slugga tier.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I'm thinking 0-1.
                ... Yeah, I'd bet a human can survive 0 lasgun shots, too.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Nope, even unarmored a pair of astartes weren't very concerned with threats from a squad of guardsmen in one of the older books, so that seems doubtful.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Nope, mundane spears pierced clean through power armor in Helsreach.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                BL isn't canon.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It happens in tabletop too.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They also only fight for about five alternating turns and then go home, fighting over big plastic disks and raising invisible banners over and over.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >tourney gay somehow also game is non representational gay
                >The Knight in chess is super strong in the lore I like guys.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >like three cultists with autoguns is "extreme volumes" according to this moron

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          ?t=59

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Compare normal weapons with weapons from the future that work thanks to the power of imagination.

            the bullet from a modern weapon simply bounces off the armor.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Only two thirds of the time gets stopped, one third of hits BY ANYTHING punch right through. Learn to do math kiddo.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >it's just better because it's the future, OK
              Nah

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Wouldn’t do much
    Orks can believe hard enough for things to work, there are mages who can turn your insides into gello, and bugs that reproduce faster than you can kill em. Tactics only get you so far against bullshit

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Raptors are so fricking soulless and gay

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Nah. If they thought more, used the Codex for inspiration instead of replacement for brains (like Guilliman wanted every Astartes, especially his genesons), and used literally everything there with their own brands of specializations, then they'd be far more deadlier than ever.

      Raptors survived stuff that would make whole Chapters extinct in a heartbeat.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Congratulations, you've discovered that 40k isn't a very serious setting at it's core and is primarily based on aesthetics. I hope you'll learn this before you go on to make a variety of threads about "OMG did you guys know imperial tank armor is only 5mm?!?" and other classics,but o very much doubt it.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      maybe he'll take a tabletop game marker and scale it up and get butthurt that it doesn't look realistic when it was intended to be viewed from an inch tall from six feet away.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Less. Wasting time skulking about and calling airstrikes on an enemy you might have seen is far less effective than running up and screaming and killing it, when you can just do that.
    Also space marines would be entirely immune to those frag payloads they drop from drones.

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Incredibly deadly, they'd kill the last of my interest in the setting

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I like the Tacticool :/
    When I were a lad there wasn't as much choice

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >He doesn't activate COVERT BANNER and STEALTH NEON CAMMO

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It's in black and white anon not neon

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Those are space wolves so it might be a bit different but take your pick of covert dazzle cammo from the era. Could also just have a neon wasteland to go with the spiky plants and it would work too.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          derp so stealthy I forgot to attach it.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    40k armies in general use perfectly valid tactics for advanced futuristic warfare. You probably saw a few cutscenes of Space Marines charging melee and getting mowed down by ranged fire but those are extremely rare situations, literally one in a billion or less. The vast majority of the time they are used exactly as a modern day general would use them. Small, powerful squads capable of quickly infiltrating secure places and taking out key targets. The Astartes video is how 99.9999999999% Space Marine mission play out, minus the warp shenanigans at the end. Have good intel, identify key targets, rapidly strike and completely overwhelm any opposition, complete objective, extract, repeat.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >You probably saw a few cutscenes of Space Marines charging melee and getting mowed down by ranged fire but those are extremely rare situations, literally one in a billion or less
      cope

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Dilate.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Aren't the Raptors the most incompetent chapter of the Space Marines?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      No that's Lamenters and the other Badab war losers that stayed Loyalist.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >No that's Lamenters

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Lamenters are less incompetent and more just beat with the same TRAGIC LOSS plot stick as craftworld eldar where every tiny victory needs to come at the cost of depleting their chapter down to a few dozen for the third time that week.

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >How more deadly would astartes be if they applied modern military tactics with their technology and biological engineering?
    Many modern military tactics are hilariously primitive, outdated and irrelevant to warfare in 40,000. The technology available and the psychology of the enemies vastly changes the shape of war.

    For example, fire and maneuver, suppressing the enemy through fire superiority, just doesn't work against mindless alien hordes that charge into your lines without heed of pain or fear. They will suffer casualties but they will break your human forces that are still susceptible to fear every fricking time, without fail. Using rivers as barriers in the terrain around which to shape your plans doesn't work on a planet with no water, or against an enemy with anti-grav hovercraft. Lines of defense don't do anything against teleporters. Satellite guided munitions are worthless when everyone has anti-orbital capabilities and can obliterate your satellites unless you hold orbital superiority. And on and on and on and on.

    Almost every single detail of warfare would need to be relearned in this environment. The modern view of 21st century tech would be as applicable to 40k as the roman phalanx would be to mortar fire.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >For example, fire and maneuver, suppressing the enemy through fire superiority, just doesn't work against mindless alien hordes that charge into your lines without heed of pain or fear
      >he doesnt know that tyranids engage in fire and maneuver tactics

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Tyranids ARE the fearless alien hordes. It doesn't work AGAINST them. Of course it will work FOR them against the fear-susceptible races.

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Generally worse. Keeping at a distance would allow the enemy to bombard them with artillery and air strikes without issue of friendly fire, all of which can break Marine armor with a close enough hit from sheer mass if explosive, while the Marines are stuck picking off targets with a gun that's effectively oversized for the task since even weaker weapons could one-shot kill many enemies. And then there's an ability for psykers to pull in warp bullshit to make any infantry into the artillery problem.
    By contrast, getting in close restricts the ability for enemies to use the heavier ordinance without friendly losses on their side, while simultaneously a ton of the benefits if being Superhuman with armor that makes them even better become usable which couldn't be at range and if a psyker starts pulling their crap, the Marines are right there.
    There are some chapters that use semi-modern tactics such as the Raven Guard, but they still have major differences because of shit like the above.

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why would they be deadlier by applying outdated military tactics? Theirs are 38000 years more advanced.

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Certain amount of people think warhammer would be way better if space marines said "oscar foxtango whisky mike" and did that little two finger point. I hope they die soon.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The alternate reason for OP's question is that he wants people to talk about Space Marines, because he doesn't have anyone else to speak to about Space Marines.

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The general should be able to tell you.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Do you actually think you are going to accomplish anything with these posts?

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >But imagine space marines that act like a SAS battalion or a combined arms fighting force.
    They'd be an ultra-mobile elite-trained combined-arms Divsion (taking into account chapter serfs with the 1000 astartes per chapter being actual fighting astartes).
    >Regular power armored marines virtually unstoppable by small arms fire and fricking stomping regular infantry
    >Armored vehicles serve traditional roles, but with more automated sensors and augmented crews that would in all likelihood dominate normal vehicles and crews
    >Their own dedicated air wing
    If you employed them in any "modern day sane setting" you just be using a lot less close combat, the entire "Astartes" short basically showed what they should be doing. Attacking HVT's or assaulting enemy strongpoints and fricking vaporizing them before retreating and let regular humans take their positions.

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They would be worse. Modern combat strategies and doctrines have never accounted for the possibility of 7ft tall ubermensch with tank armor and the ability to deploy literally on top of the enemy

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