>imagine playing retro dungeon crawlers with no automap

>imagine playing retro dungeon crawlers with no automap

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    sounds great

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      No, it doesn't.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >imagine playing retro games with all the available cheats and shortcuts so you have to quickly buy another

        Yes, it does.

        Why not just remember the layout as you explore?

        Or just make own maps ffs instead of being a functioning cumsumer

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >he doesnt have mental automapper
        brainlets like you dont deserve to drive

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      This. Playing them with a pad of graph paper by your side making notes for future is half the game. Ahkr

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It also makes it take half of your life lol

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          you in a rush or something? maybe hobbies arent for you

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Back when pirating games was hard and buying them expensive, shit like this how people used to have fun back then.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I pirated both EoB games off bulletin boards, do you even 90s pirate buddy

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        BBS didn't exist in SEA phone networks.
        we had teletext instead.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Don't have it. I did it many times. You can't even imagine what sorts of mental feats children found trivial back in your grandparents days.

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why not just remember the layout as you explore?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Did you ever play Eye of the Beholder, frogshitter? Bet you didn't.
      Yes it's possible to learn the layout. I know because I beat the game without using graph paper or spoilers at the time of release. But it's not natural especially in places with teleporters and trick squares that turn you around and such. It's way easier when you map it.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Did you ever play Eye of the Beholder, frogshitter? Bet you didn't.
        Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Sometimes.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >collector
          So you didn't play them, confirmed.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >you own the game? guess that means you didn't play it then!
            do pirategays really

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              homosexual I played the game on SNES in 1992 when it was the only RPG I had to play besides Final Fantasy IV. Pirating wasn't even an option.
              You bought some gay collection that's still in the pristine condition of someone who has never actually used it. And this is all reinforced by the inane stupidity of your posts ITT.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Blood & Magic
          Just looked that up, might have to give it a playthrough...

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >the box set
          >not even the original standalone versions
          ngmi

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Why not just remember the layout as you explore?

        I actually think EotB1+2 are the easiest crawlers to blindly play. Teleporters, illusionary walls, later lay outs etc does get kind of ridiculous, but I feel like for the most part it's pretty logical. I've had harder times blindly exploring towns in might and magic lol.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >not memorizing the source code so you can play the game entirely in your head

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I play Daggerfall without using the map and without teleport magic. I usually have a banging headache after completing a quest and leaving the dungeon after several hours.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >goes to grocery store
    >pulls out graph paper and starts mapping
    wouldn't want to get lost ;^)

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >excuse me, do you know where the milk is?
      >certainly m'lady! walk 8 steps north then head east at the intersection!

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        me, do you know where the milk is?

        >That person does not understand Common.
        >That person does not understand Common.
        >That person does not understand Common.
        >That person does not understand Common.
        >That person does not understand Common.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Given how they deliberately rearrange things so that you'll buy products that you don't need, even this won't help.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >go to grocery store
      >have to fight for my life every 2 steps
      >get warped away from the produce section because I stepped on the wrong tile
      >reach for ham, suddenly a poison arrow shoots out of it

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        And you try to tell the young people of today that ... they won't believe you.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Didn't expect a Four Yorkshiremen reference when I clicked on this thread.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Back in my day we didn't have graph paper, only a ball of yarn, and that's if we were lucky. I'm sick of Attic dwelling newbie malakas.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Funny you mention grocery stores since they have giant signs everywhere for directions and to tell you what is where.

      Just like the modern games (You) play.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Did you ask an employee for a blueprint of your local store before going in to shop for the first time?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        No, but I probably should. My anxiety goes bananas when I have to enter an unfamiliar place. Who knows what kind of mischief lurks behind the nooks and crannies of these well-lit supermarkets and restaurants. Who knows what kind of terrible social encounter awaits at every turn.

        God, just thinking about it puts me in a cold sweat.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Too soon, bro.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I'm making a dungeon crawler, seems like people are split on automapping. Some people get pissed if it's not there, others get annoyed having automaps.

    Should I just make it an option you select at the start?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      [...]

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Better to ask in dungeon crawler threads, where people who actually care about the genre are concentrated.

        probably. I dont want to map on graph paper but think the idea of it is awesome. giving people an option to do either would be nice. And yeah some people get very mad about being able to auto map or not. I personally just wanna look at an auto map and if it lets me put notes on it cool if not oh well.

        Yeah, mapping yourself on graph paper can be fun. I guess I'll have an optional automap. On by default, but can be disabled at the start.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >On by default, but can be disabled at the start.
          that would probably be the best option. and better you code it all in early on than later once you're further into coding. good luck with your game anon

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      probably. I dont want to map on graph paper but think the idea of it is awesome. giving people an option to do either would be nice. And yeah some people get very mad about being able to auto map or not. I personally just wanna look at an auto map and if it lets me put notes on it cool if not oh well.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Ultima Underworld had automaps and it was more advanced and pioneering than any OG Ultima. Automaps are good /vr/ tech.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Anon, there are 2 kinds of game devs. The dev with a vision who doesn't give a frick about others' opinions, and the dev with spreadsheets showing his projected earnings over the next 5 years by cloning game X with cash shop model Y.

      There are no game devs who constantly ask random strangers on the internet for advice and affirmation. Those people either quit before they start or they go into eternal "early release" mode with an unplayable game because they're more addicted to comments than progress.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >There are no game devs who constantly ask random strangers on the internet for advice and affirmation.
        >constantly
        I did it once. I disagree that game devs never ask random strangers for opinions. I wanted to hear opinions on optional automaps. It's a topic that people don't have any strong opinion on outside of threads like this. The thread is already about automaps or no automaps. I only introduced the idea of optional automaps as a third option. Maybe I should've just asked about that without sharing that I'm making a game.

        >The dev with a vision who doesn't give a frick about others' opinions
        Including an automap or not isn't a strong part of the vision either way to be honest. I like them so I'm putting it in, but some people don't like them and it's so easy to disable that it can be an option.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I get what you're saying though, it's a good point.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        based and redpilled project scoper. kitchen sink and scope creep btfo

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >There are no game devs who constantly ask random strangers on the internet for advice and affirmation.
        there are devs who occasionally, or even often, have discussions, online and offline, about games, so they can get different perspectives and strengthen their own opinions by verbalizing their own ideas
        get your self righteous head out of your ass

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Why is that even a question? I won't play a crawler with no automap, yet there are people who enjoy drawing maps (a few seniles).

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I guess it's a question because people argue about automapping but I don't know any games off the top of my head that let you disable it. Curious if there's arguments against making it optional or if that's genuinely the best approach. To some extent maybe the choice affects the way you design maps, especially things like spinners (or other disorienting tiles) that are less meaningful with automaps. In which case you might want to force people to use automaps or not to get the full experience.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Grimrock has it optional. You can make a few levels where automapping stops working and design them around that. Hire me.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That would work very well in a sci-fi game:
            >the automapper is a device you carry in the inventory
            >some levels affect it (radiation/interference), forcing you to map by hand
            >you can find the source of the interference and stop it to enable it again, or just keep going
            >secrets can contain not only weapons or healing items, but also upgrades for the mapper

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Battletech on Genesis stage 3

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              and how can spaceships in scifi RPGs NOT have maps?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >You can make a few levels where automapping stops working
            This is workable though obviously it does telegraph to the player "hey this is the area where you'll find mapping puzzles"
            Not necessarily a bad thing

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I guess it's a question because people argue about automapping but I don't know any games off the top of my head that let you disable it. Curious if there's arguments against making it optional or if that's genuinely the best approach. To some extent maybe the choice affects the way you design maps, especially things like spinners (or other disorienting tiles) that are less meaningful with automaps. In which case you might want to force people to use automaps or not to get the full experience.

      I want to say make it optional but give an achievement or special ending if you do it with no map. But that might just lead to people wanting to use a walkthrough or the like to get it anyways.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I wouldn't worry too much about people cheesing achievements

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's not simply a matter of having an automap or not. It's a question of whether you're designing for manual mapping or not, e.g. do you have elements designed to make the player get lost and screw up their map, or make them have that "ah ah!" moment when they realize some walls have moved since they first mapped them? If you don't have elements in your game that depend on manual mapping to work, then it won't really deliver the experience the manual map crowd craves anyway.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Might and Magic IV locks automapping behind the Cartography skill, giving players the option to leave it off while making casuals put out at least the bare minimum of effort to turn it on.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Why not just have a menu option for it?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      have a soulful version of mapping, like ultima underworld maps you can write in-game notes on, or make it require a certain limited spell/item or something

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      My personal favorite system is the Sekaijuu no Meikyuu / Etrian Odyssey one where you draw the map yourself in the game as you play.
      It has the satisfaction of drawing your own map without issues like running off the edge of the graph paper.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Just make it an option. If people are STILL pissed at that just don't listen, internet likes to complain about the dumbest things.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    RPG's without quest markers? That boomer shit is unplayable

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    both of the good eye of the beholder games are playable just via brain map. The shitty one less so but that's part of why it's shitty

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I never used graph paper for stuff like Wizardry or Dungeon Master. Most of these old dungeon crawlers are small enough that you can just memorize floor layouts if you play them enough.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Didn't draw the map
    You didn't beat the game. You didn't even play it.

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Automapping is bad
    morons would rather take 3 seconds every "step" in order to draw a line and sometimes a symbol just to make the exact same map an automapper would make because they hate convenience

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It makes me a bit sad people really don't know about mapping gameplay and think it's just about convenience.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >mapping gameplay
        Bitch, you ain't playing the game if you're manually doing the map. You're only creating a fricking strategy guide.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          If a game expects you to make a map like most TTRPGs do then yes, it's a part of the gameplay.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            So... what, do you throw away the old map whenever you replay games?
            Fricking dumbass

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    you don't need a map, you have a compass

  13. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Frick Gwart

  14. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  15. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    My least favourite is
    >you need to draw the map yourself
    >but you also get hungry so you can't take too much time or need to reload every couple minutes

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It blows my mind how much of a filter the food is in EotB. There's PLENTY on the first 3 floors and after that your cleric should be a high enough level to cast create food. If you don't have a cleric in your first playthrough then you shouldn't be playing a d&d game.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It's pretty fricking dumb. What's even the point of having food in your game if 3 characters have backpacks full of food and the cleric can create it by the third floor? This and the fact that you need to pick arrows back one by one was the last straw for me. I swear, Grimrock 2 is the only dungeon crawler that's actually fun to play and where all the mechanics make sense.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The easy answer is because it's a survival mechanic. It was an immersive game, especially on PC where the only sound you'd here was the drips of water and the creeks of a settling sewer. Beyond that though, if you did a party without a cleric (which anyone should try on a second playthrough) it does add a sense of urgency.

  16. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why imagine?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      What's with the random names to the right?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Passwords for Nectaris/Military Madness.

  17. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I haven’t owned graph paper since i was like in 6th grade, and at the time i probably wouldn’t have thought to use if for map drawing. I commend all these cartographers in the thread.

  18. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It's more fun having to engage with the game.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I hope you're not referring to picking up arrows after each battle, because if that's the case I'll fricking punch you.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        That should be the trade off for a strong, long range, back row character.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Okay, Mr. Cuck.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This genre died when they started catering it to lazy people like you.

  19. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Automap is fine but if you think picrel is complex enough that you need an automap, I think you're a moron with no patience.

  20. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    For me it's mapping in Excel with the right hand while using an ASCII grip pad in the left hand.

    Would work even better if I had a 2 screens setup but alas I have no room for a second screen

  21. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The teleport maze in EoB. I didn't make a map but there is a trick I used when I'm playing retro dungeon crawlers without automap. In that screen, you see there is a weapon (a blade) in front of you. There is also another item at the right side further back. I drop items I don't need (rations, non-magical weapons/ammos, etc) to mark the places I've visited. Then I step in a teleporter. After appearing in another place, I look around to see where I left my item. That's how I know where I am now. Then I drop another item (preferably different items) to mark it. Rinse and repeat until I leave the teleport maze.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yea, that's a cool strat. Used it in Vaporum.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That's how you solve those squares that change your direction too when the game doesn't have a compass.

  22. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Did anyone else grind the hell out of killing the dwarfs in EotB? They'd respawn after some set of time (no idea what triggers it, but I'd come back after going through a floor and they'd respawn.) They could be tough, but since they group up you can just ice storm them from a distance.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I killed lots of Sahuagins before my Cleric can cast Create Food & Water. Sahuagins drop iron rations.

  23. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The compass looks like a steering wheel. You can pretend you're driving a car when play.

  24. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Anyone who pretends like they do it all in their head probably has never played a real dungeon crawler. I bet they think they have a great sense of direction because they can remember directions in Half Life or some shit like that. Probably would get lost in Doom's episode 2 too.

    Picrel is nothing too, no pits, no dark areas, no teleporters, no turnpikes. Also good luck remembering everything when the game demands to backtrack to an area you played 20 hours of gameplay ago

  25. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    It's better to just have it as an toggleable option with no strings attached.
    Man I WISH I had an automap back then when I played the first Eye of the Beholder with that dungeon with the tiles that teleported you just like that. The only way to figure that out was just trusting your gut.
    It'd suck to have the option to disable the automap but "if you do you won't be able to turn it on ever again in this run", feels prohibitive for no reason and would add nothing to the gameplay and experience.
    Just think, "would this feature ADD something in a MEANINGFUL way or am I adding tedium just for the sake of having tedium?"

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You're probably right. Realistically, very few people would be bothered by having it as an option, and locking people in doesn't add all that much. People who want to disable it in the first place are likely the same people who would keep it off. No good reason to make it permanent.

  26. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Best way to play Wizardry 1-3?
    Also what are other good similar retro DRPGs?

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