post yours and prove that you're a true zelda fan

I like tunic a lot but honestly I would PREFER a straight up clone over all the different variations of "it's like the 2d zeldas but not really lol" we always get

i have a soft spot for a zelda-esque game that gives you a hookshot immediately, and while for 11 dungeons it's your only tool, it never stops finding ways to utilize it in conventional ways

It's good game, but it has a lot of backtracking with time limits and the story is meh.
However it is my favorite title out of the operation rainfall games.

Eastern Palace is more complicated than anything in Twilight Princess.

Crosscode doesn't at all LOOK like it should be a Zelda-like, and it's not fully, but the dungeons are bang-on 2D Zelda. It's uncanny.

I would have gone Xanadu but Brandish is good too.

I don't really think of Ys as a dungeon crawler. Some of them would partially qualify but there's not as much focus on navigation or puzzles after the bump era

You're on Ganker, you're full of shit if you've never seen a more nitpicky sentiment than "this song didn't fit."

>Unless you're about to go ahead and say every metroidvania ever made is bad, you can fuck off.
Super Metroid is a phenomenal game. Super Metroid has upgrades that do a lot more than act as glorified keys in a few areas to gate progress. Super Metroid is also designed in a way that lets the player use a combination of various abilities to get into different areas before they're "supposed to" and never arbitrary gates the player from doing something because you stumbled into a different area early. You can always explore any area and kill any boss as long as you can physically reach them. That's why Super Metroid is the best in its genre. You can fuck right off if you're going to pretend that getting power bombs or the ice beam in SM is somehow comparable to getting a glove or bracelet in a Zelda game that does literally nothing except pick up and remove a road block that's blocking an entrance to the next area you need to go to when that area has no other approaches you can take to get in.

>It turns out, nobody was fellating "muh freedom" in Zelda games until Skyward Sword deliberately framed the problem as linearity.
NTA but you're either delusional or too underage for this series. Freedom and openness dominated every Zelda discussion I've lurked on and have been a part of for a long fucking time before Skyward Sword was even on the drawing board. You pretending that it wasn't with your shitty revisionist history doesn't make it untrue. Nobody liked item gating in Zelda back then and they wouldn't like it now either.

intended partly for

>Your entire argument has now essentially been reduced to
Nice attempt at dismissive handwaving, but yes, shitty lock and key progression has always been bad and that's what I've consistently and unambiguously been saying. Throwing a hissyfit because you can't talk around that and try to ignore that key aspect won't change anything, and neither will ignoring the other big part about what I said regarding multiple approaches and alternate solutions that Super Metroid offered. Don't bring up Metroidvanias as a comparison if you're going to get assblasted that someone points out the good ones are absolutely nothing like they shitty lock and key gating you're pretending is good in 3D Zeldas.
>Linearity is not a dirty word. Not even in Zelda. Nobody gave any serious thought to your ability to do dungeons out of order in OOT
Because OoT hardly offered the ability to do that, and certainly didn't have the level of world exploration and discovery that LoZ and LttP had with regards to finding dungeons. Your sweeping statements trying to downplay the importance of multi function tools and multiple approaches to problems or mitigate how awful linearity is for an adventure game will change nothing. You tried to say that my point has been reduced to something, but you never had a point to begin with because you brought up an example of a genre whose superlative game spits in the face of the trash progression of a game like OoT.

And where exactly are you given the impression that this is somehow part of the intended vision of the game and not, I don't know, a fucking FAILSAFE?

>They made this robust game with multiple approaches to everything
Many of your alternate routes through the game require ridiculous degrees of precision and skill that Nintendo has not designed for in the past nor since, implying to me that they are unintended.
>with no arbitrary lock and key gating
Missile doors. Destructible-only-by-x-item blocks.
So, yes. I do believe that a lot of the nonlinearity of Super Metroid is in fact unintended. It was well accounted for, but not designed for.

Fine. I've played the game through, but maybe I haven't done enough "research" for you or whatever the fuck.

>It was well accounted for, but not designed for.
If they accounted for it then they designed for it, you idiot.

No. Designing for something is intending for it, accounting for it is catching it as an exception to your intent.

>sequence BREAKING
>is a DESIGN choice
The sequence is the design. Breaking the sequence is escaping the fucking game design.

>Designing for something is intending for it, accounting for it is catching it as an exception to your intent.
This is completely wrong and you know nothing about game design or programming in general. Enough with your meaningless word salads.

>missile doors
You get missiles ridiculously early, it only serves to guide first time players down the intended path.

>Nobody was fucking MAD that they had to get a dungeon item to progress in a fucking dungeon.
They were mad that items barely had any utility outside their respective dungeons which is a staple of every OoT-like Zelda except for *maybe* Wind Waker when it came to *certain* items. People have been clamoring for what would eventually happen in BotW/TotK for fucking ages, dude, right down to being able to go anywhere in the overworld without being gated and having items that could serve a variety of functions and even having puzzles and gates with multiple solutions. This didn't just come out of nowhere. It's been discussed for literally decades.
You're just making it clear that you weren't around for them.
>Nobody was seriously proposing removing all dungeon items, or just giving you a set of dungeon items at the start of the game and then having every other improvement throughout the game just be statistical growth
Runes function as dungeon items (just a million times better than the old ones mechanically) so they were never removed. "Growth" in Zelda games have always been statistical, with only the items allowing you to progress beyond arbitrary keyholes which everyone rightfully derided because people enjoyed Zelda the most when it felt like an adventure with actual exploration, even if, in OoT's case, it sometimes only provided the illusion of one.

>which is a staple of every OoT-like Zelda except for *maybe* Wind Waker when it came to *certain* items
IN WHAT FUCKING UNIVERSE? The only games that were particularly bad about this were Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. TP had two damn items that were memed to death as being useless outside their one dungeon, the spinner and the dominion rod. TWO. Every other item saw appreciable use elsewhere. Skyward Sword had it worse, though nobody is dumb enough to defend Skyward Sword, I hope.
>Runes function as dungeon items (just a million times better than the old ones mechanically)
I actually do agree with this. I like how runes function more. Hell, I even like TOTK since it addresses a lot of my problems with BOTW. I just would fucking love another game with the OOT formula to come out and actually be great, not just good or decent. I genuinely believe that the failures of WW, TP, and SS are not because of linearity or devotion to the OOT formula. OOT providing the feeling of adventure without actually providing ABSOLUTE FREEDOM was not a bad thing, that was amazing fucking design. I'm tired of seeing this shit undersold.

>Slingshot hits things at a distance
>Bombs blow up rocks and conventionally invulnerable enemies
>Boomerang stuns enemies and hits other things at a distance without requiring ammunition
>Hookshot's utility is self-evident and not a replacement
>Bow... is just the adult slingshot, but it gets the elemental upgrades
>All tunics and boots are functionally different from your base equipment
>Megaton hammer hits a new type of switch, flips enemies, breaks rocks without costing bombs
>Longshot... is just a hookshot upgrade, but the water temple uses the transition from hookshot to longshot smartly at least
Beyond here is where things get a little lame.
>spirit temple has the mirror shield which really is just a key and anti-boss item without any regular combat applications and few puzzle applications
>shadow temple has the lens of truth which you don't even get within the dungeon and is really one note in its use
Maybe SS isn't as bad as I thought, I do recall it hitting you with a lot of items without much combat utility at first and finding that particularly annoying at least.

That's the thing. BOTW didn't fix fucking shit because there was no goddamn variety to how it did even a single one of its puzzles. Oh wow, this thing that used to be an item is a weapon now! Oh... wait... weapons are disposable now... that means no part of the game will actually expect me to have it. The amount of problems it solves wholesale is zero. That's fine in theory, I'm all for multilayered solutions, but when the solution that doesn't involve the disposable utility isn't particularly harder or slower... what's the point? Why even bother with the special unique utility when it does nothing better?
Ironically the only place BOTW breaks this convention is its fucking fetch quests. You cannot dance around the objective of a fetch quest. If you do not have the items they want, the quest is not completed. It is the most boring, shitty, lock-and-key design of all. It makes the game look very all-or-nothing; the only instance in which a scenario actually requires something you may not have the moment you arrive is one where you're just expected to deliver goods.
I still do like TOTK. The introduction of fusion makes it possible to carry around a decent set of utilities, and there's enough enemy variety that changing tactics and using those utilities feels more warranted more often. If BOTW had been more like this at first I wouldn't be so worried about where things are going.
>You may not personally agree, but it was a major consensus for years.
And I believe it's a knee-jerk overreaction to "linearity". And it lines up way too well with the general direction of the games industry for me to feel that it's entirely organic.

If freedom to use tools in different ways requires me to know that every puzzle in the game could be completed as soon as I exit the tutorial, then your statement is untrue.
I want puzzles that require me to hunt down the solution. Everything being self-contained defeats that goal.

Sorry, I should specify.
If freedom to use tools in different ways REQUIRES the game to be designed such that all my main tools are acquired before I exit the tutorial, thus guaranteeing that a severe majority of puzzles can be solved as soon as I run across them, not requiring, say, long-term memory or anything, then multifunctional tools are not worth what they cost.

And I find the design of puzzles as "roadblocks" to have even more potential in open world than it does in a linear game. If a puzzle requires a tool you outright don't have and that tool exists in a specific place on the map that you have to work to reach, that sounds fucking amazing.

NTA but a lot of (but not all of) the shrines require long-term memory of what the runes are capable of. It's why you have a lot of players reporting they were stumped for a while because they forgot a rune could be used in some specific way or even combined with something else to achieve the desired result.
Also you're dramtically overselling older 3D games if you think it took any recollective effort to go to the other corner of a small map that you just saw a couple of hours ago. Wind Waker was ironically the only game to somewhat mitigate that because the sea was so massive.

Maybe it didn't necessarily. I just think botw didn't do enough to actually take advantage of its space, meanwhile smaller games were great at maximizing it.
I have only one shrine in TOTK that I'm stumped on, and the experience of it was far lesser because I could just walk out and ignore it. The warp point even activates before you finish it; I get that, for anti-frustration purposes, but come ON.

You literally just described a roadblock, not a puzzle. Also BotW has softblocks everywhere in its level design be it a major stamina requirement or a status one you'd need from gear or a consumable.

NTA but a lot of (but not all of) the shrines require long-term memory of what the runes are capable of. It's why you have a lot of players reporting they were stumped for a while because they forgot a rune could be used in some specific way or even combined with something else to achieve the desired result.
Also you're dramtically overselling older 3D games if you think it took any recollective effort to go to the other corner of a small map that you just saw a couple of hours ago. Wind Waker was ironically the only game to somewhat mitigate that because the sea was so massive.

>Bows and even specific elemental arrows are tied to specific puzzles in BotW
Oh, is this another of those things that I just HAPPENED to never see in my entire playthrough? Or did I forget it? Fuck, I can't tell anymore. Discussing this fucking game makes me feel like I have dementia, almost everything people say is in it I never fucking saw. For the most part, for me, the game was an empty fucking expanse of enemy camps full of the same three enemies and KOROKS and shrines that expect me to use one rune in a completely well noted location, maybe a few times if I'm lucky. I went out of my way to find stuff. I found multiple fairy fountains, I found the fucking horse god, I found the cheeky shrine behind the waterfall, I never felt like putting in the kind of effort I did was rewarded for like 80% of my playthrough so I stopped for the last bit.
So far totk is nothing like it. I am genuinely enjoying myself. I am stumbling into situations I have not been in before constantly. The fact that your main shrine tool is used to assemble things rather than to activate the puzzle makes it actually feel distinct to use in each. I can separate the rail shrine from the car shrine in my own memory effortlessly. The fundamental design is just better on so many levels. It's not just the runes. If the game had this much shit back in BOTW, I would've loved it too. I would've found it to be a bit of a cop-out by Aonuma that after a decade of shallowly imitating surface elements of OOT and being called out for his lack of understanding of why people liked it, he flipped the table and did something entirely different, but I would've liked it still.
>I believe the current direction of the series is partly in response to consensus and also partly inevitable
I can believe the team was dreaming of a proper physics-puzzle Zelda for years, but open world without any dungeon items? After 20 years of the series being... just that? I really believe this is just marketing speak.

>both shrines and environmental shrine quests make use of arrows, especially the latter
Maybe it's because you generally have a bow. Melee weapons are a lot more disposable, so I took bows for granted more? Eh, whatever.
>Yes. Both the GCN and Wii were rife with limitations and the developers frequently mentioned it.
... I don't recall any sentiment from the developers that they wanted to make a game that was completely open but were stopped due to "limitations". Maybe wanting a bigger world or more content, sure, but never any anti-linearity sentiment. Is this one of us reading a meaning that isn't strictly there out of old interviews or something?
>I'm glad you're enjoying TotK so it's best we just leave it here
Sure, I can agree to that.

>bring up a genre where games get praised for working sequence breaking into the progression
>insist that linearity and lock and key gating is fine
OoTfanboys are so fucking stupid.

>malfunction
Learn to read

At what point did I ever fucking imply that items having multiple functions is bad? It is, in fact, the ideal. I just prefer those items be introduced over time, and used in scenarios where they are specifically expected to be used, in a game where the dungeons have at very fucking least a rough order with a difficulty curve and rising tension and shit. Gaining more functions is not worth sacrificing EVERY OTHER PROPERTY THAT MADE ITEMS FUN.

Metroidvania is nothing like OoT style Zelda games you actual fucking baby, get a grip.

Jabu Jabu and the first Goron trip at the only ones that might actually qualify as doing something in the game world, dipshit. Everything as adult Link is just "get the next plot device" without changing the game world or story. Seriously,
>help the Gerudo establish themselves separate from Ganondorf's influence.
the fact that you could even type that and think you made a point is insane.

And what changes in the game world after you do that?

Yes. The game world. A paper thin justification for something with no real consequences in the game itself is worthless.

>YOUR expectations
Because you said
>clearing should have ramifications other than "you got the macguffin"
When it doesn't. Nothing changing in the game world is not a ramification. Like most people championing aspects of the older 3D games, you make statements on principle that sound good about how the games should be structured but then get mad when people point out that they don't actually fulfill the criteria you set up for them.

If nothing changes in the game world and there's no narrative progression outside of an event being acknowledged at completion and then never being touched on again, then there are no ramifications. It's essentially just a level you beat. That's not a generalization, that's just what ramifications in a game are.

>Is more significant than
It's not when its removal doesn't actually change anything.
>I don't feel like you're gatekeeping "good writing"
And I don't feel like you have a point. You're just mad that you got called out for criteria that don't fit at all and you're grasping at straws.

>he writing isn't significant at all
If there was a strong narrative and dialogue that reflects changes you made like an RPG would, then the writing would be significant. That's not the case with OoT at all. The writing is almost non-existent.

>They're what you listed as being comparable to it for the time period.
I listed two more, dipshit.
>Thief and SS1 were better, but that doesn't change that OoT is also very impressive.

For someone complaining about my examples, you sure aren't giving me any other impressive 3D games to illustrate your point.

>Side interactions
If you mean pure quantity of side CONTENT, yeah. The actual attention to little details is less impressive IMO. Still a really impressive game.
>Polish
Visually, but that's about it. Game's jank as fuck and tuned to be easy to stop players from getting fucked by it.

Either way, I don't see how this changes that OoT was an incredibly polished game.

>Still has no actual argument for a lack of polish, just keeps shouting "BUT IT'S EASY"
>While praising FF7
lol
lmao

>Linear progression of difficulty in both puzzles and combat encounters
Pic unrelated? Because that sure as shit doesn't sound like OoT dungeons.

Off the top of my head stone tower temple in MM starts with dragonflies, then introduces weird statue guys that you have to flip to kill, then the garo lord, then the grim reaper and the giant eyeball dude before twinmold.
Thats not a clean progression, but its definitely a step up from the dragonflys and dust bunnies you fight near the start of the dungeon.
Most the n64 dungeons go this way, the enemies at the start are the easiest, with harder to kill ones being introduced later inside through the use of multiple mini boss fights and sometimes other non respawning encounters.

Even in most the OOT dungeons you got at least one mini boss before the real boss and usually the harder enemies like wall masters dont show up at the very start. But IIRC all the majoras mask ones have at least two. In the great bay temple its the frog and the giant bubble eye thing.

>it's all just "use new tool here".
Yes, but the way you use new tool gets more complex over time. Like hookshot points going from stationary to moving targets.
I'm not saying any of this is difficult, just that the things at the start of the dungeon are less involved than things at the end. Which I don't think is a controversial statement.

I really hope you're not implying the great deku tree and the spirit temple are on the same level of complexity.

Nah, the water temple was.
I do like the web physics however, very nice for a 5th gen game.

nta but I agree, water temple is the obvious best in the game. the way it filters so many makes it blatantly obvious that That was a Dungeon.

nah, I remember specifically a raise in water made a platform rise and there was a hole underneith, and that key was responsible for many players making it Just Outside the room with the boss key, only to have to backtrack around snooping for that missing key

you guys are fuddy duddys

>Fuck, I'd rather do TotK's water temple and that one is the weakest of that game's dungeons.
TotK doesn't waste your time with padded animations. The water temple sucks, but it's not tedious which makes it infinitely less sucky.