It's established that people falling through the hole is extremely rare, she's basically prioritising the safety of someone who is almost certainly not going to exist over someone she knows is already in the underground and (she thinks) needs protecting.
>plot hole
you naggers dont understand the words you use god damn.
She shows that she's incredibly concerned for your safety and yet doesn't do the most obvious think to protect you? Unless you can give a good reason, then it's a plot hole.
It's not a plot hole you dumb nagger its a character flaw. Her and asgore both ran from their grief in different ways but people all too often miss that about toriel, about how the queen runs from her responsibility to hide in the ruins and ignore her problems. she did so when her son died, and she stayed there when all the other kids died, she cares but her issues clearly take the helm. There's only one ending in which she gets over this a little and she does so while accusing asgore of the same thing she's been doing.
Every character in Undertale is meant to be liked and every character has major personality flaws. The only characters that don't have some obvious personality fuck up are the side characters with no development like Monster Kid but all the main players have their flaws. This is obviously how Toby likes to write characters, it would be more unusual to have a flawless character.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
if you can't see how blatantly she's shown as coping, and I dont mean the way people use cope as an insult, I mean genuinely coping then There's no conversation to be had here, it's the entire basis of her character. Her and asgore share a similar flaw and they run from it in similar if still different ways.
They are still likeable characters, flaws dont mean someone isn't supposed to be lovable.
Do you think Toby wrote Asgore with the intention of him being disliked, because of the whole thing Toriel explained before the final boss?
With Asgore we see how Toby handles "character with inexcusable character flaw" in that he actually has characters express their disapproval of his actions, he outright uses Toriel to show he is not forgiven. As
not that guy but I think Toby Fox did a really great job designing Asgore as a character who does vile things but you end up pitying him more than hating him because everything in his life is so fucked up
says its a moral complexity that makes him compelling.
That's not the case with Toriel, everything about the writing tries to make out that she's this lovable character, no one in the story has tried to call her out on the fact that she could actually try protecting the characters she claims to want to protect.
>a retarded reason
It pains me to do this but anon.. you are the retarded one here
Are you really claiming Toriel has a good reason to not protect the humans?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>With Asgore we see how Toby handles "character with inexcusable character flaw" in that he actually has characters express their disapproval of his actions
you've very quickly shown that you don't understand how toby writes, you've missed how toby does not give his opinions through characters, and if you can't comprehend this then you genuinely aren't worth talking to. We finally have a writer who makes characters have their own opinions instead of making them all mouthpieces for whatever retarded shit he wants to say, and when toriel shows up and voices all of her grief driven self loathing at asgore you can't fucking comprehend whats happening.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
If a character in a story is a total piece of shit but is treated by everyone in the story as a lovable person then it's very reasonable to believe the writer actually thinks they're a lovable person. And it's not "making them all mouthpieces" because realistically a total piece of shit WOULD be acknowledged to be such by at least some of the characters. You don't get around being a shithead without someone ending up calling you one.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Isn't Toriel viewed as shit by the people in the endings where she becomes queen?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
In the endings where you killed people and her "humans are okay" rhetoric carries no weight because they've seen what one kid did. In pacifist runs they're fine with her.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The only thing alphys really did wrong was refusing to be honest with people. The whole amalgamate thing was freaky but works out at the end of the day. People are way too harsh on the shitty lizard.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
If you kill Papyrus or X amount of monsters (don't remember how many) Undyne overthrows her, if you kill Undyne the monsters don't want her and kick her out and the Underground becomes a weird anarchy
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
oh wow crazy turns out almost none of the characters have even met toriel until the very end of the true pacifist ending, so even along your misguided line of thinking we're not going to get that perspective on her. You've got some need to have characters validate a viewpoint but realistically you as a player see more of toriel than anyone other than asgore and should be able to just look at her actions and understand that she's living a massive cope over her grief and inability to do her job as queen which also plays out in some endings.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>until the very end of the true pacifist ending
A scene which is a massive talking between all of them and actually is used to show some self-awareness like the whole "all of us have tried to kill frisk" bit. >You've got some need to have characters validate a viewpoint
I don't. You're the one that's got the viewpoint here.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
you're a fucking idiot anon and there's no real fixing that. 8 god damn years later and you can't pick up surface level context. You've failed to make a compelling argument for whatever chromosome soup you're trying to peddle.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>8 god damn years later and you can't pick up surface level context
Apparently most people who don't give the same answer as you when asked the initial question didn't pick up on it either.
Also you know when I said realistically you don't go around being a shithead without getting called a shithead?
You're a shithead.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
you're an absolute moron, a genetic cul-de-sac. you've had it explained to you multiple times in different ways by different anons and you just hand wave it away because you have some kind of poisonous autism.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Are you really claiming Toriel has a good reason to not protect the humans?
nta but it's irrelevant. She can have no reasons at all, or stupid reasons, it doesn't matter it's all character nothing to do with the plot (which is the events, not the motivations ((of the characters*~~
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Plot is driven by characters. You describe a story's plot you are very much going to be describing the actions of the characters in the plot. "Why didn't [character] do [solution to problem]" is a classic plot hole line that is validated by how obvious the solution might be and how within the character the action was.
I mean that's the other stupid thing, that anon was getting ridiculously pissy about the word plot hole being used when really the only reason they thought it wasn't one was because they felt they had an explanation for it. That's the whole point of bringing the plot hole up to begin with, to see if you had an answer for it, of course it ceases to be one if your answer is good but we won't know that until you say it.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>ridiculously pissy
no I think I'm well within reason here. It's just blatantly the wrong word describing something completely different. Characters have motivations and reasons for things where they wont take what you see as the optimal path, and you kind of touch on that in the first sentence but keep calling it a plot hole. A plot hole is derogatory to the story, a character flaw is however, not necessarily derogatory because while it is something negative about the character, those negative aspects can be part of why we love or enjoy a character. Plot holes however are just failed moments in writing.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The plot hole is the problem needing explaining, there being a character flaw is a potential explanation. Again the point of bringing up the plot hole is to see if there is an explanation to begin with. Of course it ceases to be one if an good explanation is found, but until you actually said what it was, we aren't going to know so it's going to be a plot hole in the meantime. So getting angry that it was called a plot hole just because the explanation wasn't given yet was dumb.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
it was never a plot hole because there was always an explanation. Calling something with an explanation a plot hole is just showing illiteracy and talking shit to anyone who is tired of explaining the same thing over and over again.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
How am I supposed to know there's an explanation if you haven't given it yet? It's not like this character flaw you've perceived is an obvious one. Most people's interpretation of Toriel's character is that she's someone who wants to protect Frisk.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>if you haven't given it yet?
not only have I stated it, but multiple people talked about it, and it's pretty fucking obvious. Yes she wants to protect frisk but that doesn't run counter to the fact that she has other trauma and motivations that take precedence in her decision making. Something is not a plot hole just because you haven't picked up on what's going on. People can also want multiple things, sometimes conflicting and only ultimately act on one of them.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>and it's pretty fucking obvious
Again, I've actually looked around at other times this question has been brought up on the internet. Most people haven't given the same answer you have. >Yes she wants to protect frisk but that doesn't run counter to the fact that she has other trauma and motivations that take precedence in her decision making
What evidence do we have of this then?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>What evidence do we have of this then?
her actions, she literally saves you, takes you to her home and tries to give you shelter, food etc. She tries to stop you from going out into a situation that she considers dangerous as well. She simply gives up on this after a certain point because of her other issues such as fear and regret. This is all directly evident from her actions and she overcomes her issues partially in the true pacifist ending, not entirely but she makes a step forward by facing asgore, though she doesn't realize how similar they are in how they ran from their problems, but that parts not really important here.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>She simply gives up on this after a certain point because of her other issues such as fear and regret.
Again where's the evidence to support that? Keep in mind you can't really use her decision to not go with Frisk because that's basically circular reasoning. >why didn't he use the gun he had to defend himself >because guns cause a deep-rooted trauma for him >where's the evidence for this? >well he didn't use the gun to defend himself did he?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>you can't use the things she DID to support your point because here's an example of something someone didn't do, doesnt this look silly?
it's not circular reasoning at all, we have clear evidence of what she wants to do by what she tries to do and how she follows up on that desire in the true pacifist ending. Literally constant proof of her motivations through her actions. She tries to protect frisk, gives up, then changes her mind to go do this again.
if you can't see how blatantly she's shown as coping, and I dont mean the way people use cope as an insult, I mean genuinely coping then There's no conversation to be had here, it's the entire basis of her character. Her and asgore share a similar flaw and they run from it in similar if still different ways.
They are still likeable characters, flaws dont mean someone isn't supposed to be lovable.
Do you think Toby wrote Asgore with the intention of him being disliked, because of the whole thing Toriel explained before the final boss?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
not that guy but I think Toby Fox did a really great job designing Asgore as a character who does vile things but you end up pitying him more than hating him because everything in his life is so fucked up
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Him destroying the mercy option really sold me on him
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>wrote Asgore with the intention of him being disliked,
Asgore is hyped up as early on as "le Japanese demon king" only for the subversion of lovable goofball that is the only shining of happiness and hope for the people of the underground,
You get lovely dovely family scene when you spare him in neutral before Flowey kills him and gets post credit scene in pacifist credits as gardener doing in peak happiness, at Toriel's school no less,
the only grievance we see is his relationship with Toriel
because she was 100% convinced you would die horribly like everyone else and didn't want to watch it happen again. She's probably seen several children already get merced and didn't want to watch it happen any more. It is cowardly but then again the reason why she's living there at all is because her husband was killing children and her response was just to move out because it made her uncomfortable instead of actually doing anything about it.
Because she knew Asgore was imminently about to be proven right.
It's also entirely possible she was duped by Asriel into coming and attacking Asgore in the true pacifist ending to stop Asgore from killing himself after his plan "succeeds" and not being able to free the Underground.
tl;dr Toriel isn't a very good person.
>It's also entirely possible she was duped by Asriel into coming and attacking Asgore in the true pacifist ending
Nah. Remember what she says at the beginning? "Stall for time and I'll come end end the conflict." You stall for time by going through the True Lab, which gives Toriel time to reconsider things and catch up with you, so she can end the conflict with Asgore. In a neutral ending, she just doesn't show up in time.
Alright, but still in both instances she introduces herself to you she immediately attacks someone you're meeting, lied to you about how dangerous the Underground's inhabitants would be, her ex husband, and after presumably spending thousands of years apart immediately chastises her ex husband for not immediately taking a human soul and attacking 6 random other humans for their souls after their son immediately died from doing that.
>lied to you about how dangerous the Underground's inhabitants would be
what? even if not intentionally, the underground is a dangerous place >her ex husband
Also dangerous and will do exactly what Toriel warns he will do even if he's a lovable person >chastises her ex husband
she IS being shitty here but she's not saying he should have done that, she's calling out his cowardice in that by waiting for people he was trying to make a promise he hoped he would never have to make good on. "if this was REALLY your goal then you would have done it this way that wouldn't have made the underground suffer this long". It's still shitty of her because the truth is Asgore was in a really shitty position but he WAS running from the situation, he very clearly did not actually want to do what he set himself up to do.
>lied to you about how dangerous the Underground's inhabitants would be
How many times did you die on your first playthrough? She doesn't know you can make the timeline your bitch.
>and after presumably spending thousands of years apart immediately chastises her ex husband for not immediately taking a human soul and attacking 6 random other humans for their souls after their son immediately died from doing that.
Asriel was a kid, who didn't really want to hurt anyone, even to free the monsters, which was his only real weakness as the God of Hyperdeath. Asgore was a king and probably also a survivor of the war between humans and monsters, so he'd be more prepared to kill humans. Or he could just hang around a retirement home and wait for six old farts to croak.
The whole kingdom went against her decision in favor of Asgore. Although Sans was on her side, everyone would see her first, notice something wrong, then attack Frisk immediately. Besides, if Frisk died, she would technically benefit by the barrier being destroyed, and everyone goes free. The reason why she wanted Frisk in Ruins is because she can keep them there and keep the other monsters from being aware of Frisk. Once Frisk left, if she interfered, she'd be committing treason against her husband.
Was it poorly explained? Yes. Is it a plot hole? I'd call it hubris. Could Toby have fixed this? Deltarune has party members, but this was his 2nd game, so I cut him some slack.
>husband is justifiably upset that his kid and his friend get fucking killed by humans >eclares war on humans in the heat of the moment >obviously doesn't want to do it, finds any excuse to not do it >wife just fucking leaves >Asgore is supposed to be the asshole in the relationship
Yeah always thought that was some bullshit and hopefully they change course on that shit with Deltarune but it doesn't look good. Fucking call Toriel's bullshit out for once.
Did chara kill Asriel on purpose or was it just an accident? The context with the flower pie makes it seem like a silly childish mistake but chara is a twisting fucking psychopath
the sprites in undertale were pretty bad for sure, but come on anon you can clearly tell where her eyes are. they are even a different color in the real sprite
She isn't trying to kill you but to subdue you. She purposely tries to avoid hitting you if your health gets too low and is shocked if you run into them on purpose to get a game over
No she isn't. She's trying to stop you. The genocide one is her realizing what a menace you are and shifting it to her trying to keep you there for her original reason would have had the benefit of keep you away from everyone else.
>No she isn't
Anon, this isn't a debate. She wants you to kill her. She's not massively upset and shocked if you choose violence when Mercy doesn't work immediately. You're meant to kill her, get called out on it by Flowey, and feel bad enough to try sparing her.
>You're meant to kill her, get called out on it by Flowey, and feel bad enough to try sparing her.
You're confusing "Toby wants you to do this" with "Toriel wants you to do this".
>Blames Asgore for not letting monsters leave the mountain because he believes they'll get hurt >Does the exact same thing by keeping humans but she can't even follow through with it.
lol
Horrible character.
In fact all of them are utter pieces of shit, including Chara/Frisk in some context The only one who is too pure for the Undertale world is Papyrus
>zoomers jizzed olympic pool loads to THIS
shit taste
One of the few times where off model is objectively better
meant for breeding
Why didn't she just accompany Frisk through the underground?
How the fuck have I only just noticed that plot hole?
She had to monitor the hole for any other fallen children.
It's established that people falling through the hole is extremely rare, she's basically prioritising the safety of someone who is almost certainly not going to exist over someone she knows is already in the underground and (she thinks) needs protecting.
She shows that she's incredibly concerned for your safety and yet doesn't do the most obvious think to protect you? Unless you can give a good reason, then it's a plot hole.
It's not a plot hole you dumb nagger its a character flaw. Her and asgore both ran from their grief in different ways but people all too often miss that about toriel, about how the queen runs from her responsibility to hide in the ruins and ignore her problems. she did so when her son died, and she stayed there when all the other kids died, she cares but her issues clearly take the helm. There's only one ending in which she gets over this a little and she does so while accusing asgore of the same thing she's been doing.
Do you seriously think Toby intentionally wrote a character that he clearly intended to be liked to let children die for such a retarded reason?
Every character in Undertale is meant to be liked and every character has major personality flaws. The only characters that don't have some obvious personality fuck up are the side characters with no development like Monster Kid but all the main players have their flaws. This is obviously how Toby likes to write characters, it would be more unusual to have a flawless character.
With Asgore we see how Toby handles "character with inexcusable character flaw" in that he actually has characters express their disapproval of his actions, he outright uses Toriel to show he is not forgiven. As
says its a moral complexity that makes him compelling.
That's not the case with Toriel, everything about the writing tries to make out that she's this lovable character, no one in the story has tried to call her out on the fact that she could actually try protecting the characters she claims to want to protect.
Are you really claiming Toriel has a good reason to not protect the humans?
>With Asgore we see how Toby handles "character with inexcusable character flaw" in that he actually has characters express their disapproval of his actions
you've very quickly shown that you don't understand how toby writes, you've missed how toby does not give his opinions through characters, and if you can't comprehend this then you genuinely aren't worth talking to. We finally have a writer who makes characters have their own opinions instead of making them all mouthpieces for whatever retarded shit he wants to say, and when toriel shows up and voices all of her grief driven self loathing at asgore you can't fucking comprehend whats happening.
If a character in a story is a total piece of shit but is treated by everyone in the story as a lovable person then it's very reasonable to believe the writer actually thinks they're a lovable person. And it's not "making them all mouthpieces" because realistically a total piece of shit WOULD be acknowledged to be such by at least some of the characters. You don't get around being a shithead without someone ending up calling you one.
Isn't Toriel viewed as shit by the people in the endings where she becomes queen?
In the endings where you killed people and her "humans are okay" rhetoric carries no weight because they've seen what one kid did. In pacifist runs they're fine with her.
The only thing alphys really did wrong was refusing to be honest with people. The whole amalgamate thing was freaky but works out at the end of the day. People are way too harsh on the shitty lizard.
If you kill Papyrus or X amount of monsters (don't remember how many) Undyne overthrows her, if you kill Undyne the monsters don't want her and kick her out and the Underground becomes a weird anarchy
oh wow crazy turns out almost none of the characters have even met toriel until the very end of the true pacifist ending, so even along your misguided line of thinking we're not going to get that perspective on her. You've got some need to have characters validate a viewpoint but realistically you as a player see more of toriel than anyone other than asgore and should be able to just look at her actions and understand that she's living a massive cope over her grief and inability to do her job as queen which also plays out in some endings.
>until the very end of the true pacifist ending
A scene which is a massive talking between all of them and actually is used to show some self-awareness like the whole "all of us have tried to kill frisk" bit.
>You've got some need to have characters validate a viewpoint
I don't. You're the one that's got the viewpoint here.
you're a fucking idiot anon and there's no real fixing that. 8 god damn years later and you can't pick up surface level context. You've failed to make a compelling argument for whatever chromosome soup you're trying to peddle.
>8 god damn years later and you can't pick up surface level context
Apparently most people who don't give the same answer as you when asked the initial question didn't pick up on it either.
Also you know when I said realistically you don't go around being a shithead without getting called a shithead?
You're a shithead.
you're an absolute moron, a genetic cul-de-sac. you've had it explained to you multiple times in different ways by different anons and you just hand wave it away because you have some kind of poisonous autism.
>Are you really claiming Toriel has a good reason to not protect the humans?
nta but it's irrelevant. She can have no reasons at all, or stupid reasons, it doesn't matter it's all character nothing to do with the plot (which is the events, not the motivations ((of the characters*~~
Plot is driven by characters. You describe a story's plot you are very much going to be describing the actions of the characters in the plot. "Why didn't [character] do [solution to problem]" is a classic plot hole line that is validated by how obvious the solution might be and how within the character the action was.
I mean that's the other stupid thing, that anon was getting ridiculously pissy about the word plot hole being used when really the only reason they thought it wasn't one was because they felt they had an explanation for it. That's the whole point of bringing the plot hole up to begin with, to see if you had an answer for it, of course it ceases to be one if your answer is good but we won't know that until you say it.
>ridiculously pissy
no I think I'm well within reason here. It's just blatantly the wrong word describing something completely different. Characters have motivations and reasons for things where they wont take what you see as the optimal path, and you kind of touch on that in the first sentence but keep calling it a plot hole. A plot hole is derogatory to the story, a character flaw is however, not necessarily derogatory because while it is something negative about the character, those negative aspects can be part of why we love or enjoy a character. Plot holes however are just failed moments in writing.
The plot hole is the problem needing explaining, there being a character flaw is a potential explanation. Again the point of bringing up the plot hole is to see if there is an explanation to begin with. Of course it ceases to be one if an good explanation is found, but until you actually said what it was, we aren't going to know so it's going to be a plot hole in the meantime. So getting angry that it was called a plot hole just because the explanation wasn't given yet was dumb.
it was never a plot hole because there was always an explanation. Calling something with an explanation a plot hole is just showing illiteracy and talking shit to anyone who is tired of explaining the same thing over and over again.
How am I supposed to know there's an explanation if you haven't given it yet? It's not like this character flaw you've perceived is an obvious one. Most people's interpretation of Toriel's character is that she's someone who wants to protect Frisk.
>if you haven't given it yet?
not only have I stated it, but multiple people talked about it, and it's pretty fucking obvious. Yes she wants to protect frisk but that doesn't run counter to the fact that she has other trauma and motivations that take precedence in her decision making. Something is not a plot hole just because you haven't picked up on what's going on. People can also want multiple things, sometimes conflicting and only ultimately act on one of them.
>and it's pretty fucking obvious
Again, I've actually looked around at other times this question has been brought up on the internet. Most people haven't given the same answer you have.
>Yes she wants to protect frisk but that doesn't run counter to the fact that she has other trauma and motivations that take precedence in her decision making
What evidence do we have of this then?
>What evidence do we have of this then?
her actions, she literally saves you, takes you to her home and tries to give you shelter, food etc. She tries to stop you from going out into a situation that she considers dangerous as well. She simply gives up on this after a certain point because of her other issues such as fear and regret. This is all directly evident from her actions and she overcomes her issues partially in the true pacifist ending, not entirely but she makes a step forward by facing asgore, though she doesn't realize how similar they are in how they ran from their problems, but that parts not really important here.
>She simply gives up on this after a certain point because of her other issues such as fear and regret.
Again where's the evidence to support that? Keep in mind you can't really use her decision to not go with Frisk because that's basically circular reasoning.
>why didn't he use the gun he had to defend himself
>because guns cause a deep-rooted trauma for him
>where's the evidence for this?
>well he didn't use the gun to defend himself did he?
>you can't use the things she DID to support your point because here's an example of something someone didn't do, doesnt this look silly?
it's not circular reasoning at all, we have clear evidence of what she wants to do by what she tries to do and how she follows up on that desire in the true pacifist ending. Literally constant proof of her motivations through her actions. She tries to protect frisk, gives up, then changes her mind to go do this again.
if you can't see how blatantly she's shown as coping, and I dont mean the way people use cope as an insult, I mean genuinely coping then There's no conversation to be had here, it's the entire basis of her character. Her and asgore share a similar flaw and they run from it in similar if still different ways.
They are still likeable characters, flaws dont mean someone isn't supposed to be lovable.
Do you think Toby wrote Asgore with the intention of him being disliked, because of the whole thing Toriel explained before the final boss?
not that guy but I think Toby Fox did a really great job designing Asgore as a character who does vile things but you end up pitying him more than hating him because everything in his life is so fucked up
Him destroying the mercy option really sold me on him
>wrote Asgore with the intention of him being disliked,
Asgore is hyped up as early on as "le Japanese demon king" only for the subversion of lovable goofball that is the only shining of happiness and hope for the people of the underground,
You get lovely dovely family scene when you spare him in neutral before Flowey kills him and gets post credit scene in pacifist credits as gardener doing in peak happiness, at Toriel's school no less,
the only grievance we see is his relationship with Toriel
>a retarded reason
It pains me to do this but anon.. you are the retarded one here
I'd monitor her hole if you know what I mean.
because she was 100% convinced you would die horribly like everyone else and didn't want to watch it happen again. She's probably seen several children already get merced and didn't want to watch it happen any more. It is cowardly but then again the reason why she's living there at all is because her husband was killing children and her response was just to move out because it made her uncomfortable instead of actually doing anything about it.
Bullshit. She knew Asgore would be too much of a pussy to kill Frisk the moment he saw Toriel with them.
what the fuck are you talking about did you even play undertale?
Yeah, and considering that's exactly what eventually happened I'm not off the mark.
>plot hole
you naggers dont understand the words you use god damn.
Because she knew Asgore was imminently about to be proven right.
It's also entirely possible she was duped by Asriel into coming and attacking Asgore in the true pacifist ending to stop Asgore from killing himself after his plan "succeeds" and not being able to free the Underground.
tl;dr Toriel isn't a very good person.
>It's also entirely possible she was duped by Asriel into coming and attacking Asgore in the true pacifist ending
Nah. Remember what she says at the beginning? "Stall for time and I'll come end end the conflict." You stall for time by going through the True Lab, which gives Toriel time to reconsider things and catch up with you, so she can end the conflict with Asgore. In a neutral ending, she just doesn't show up in time.
Alright, but still in both instances she introduces herself to you she immediately attacks someone you're meeting, lied to you about how dangerous the Underground's inhabitants would be, her ex husband, and after presumably spending thousands of years apart immediately chastises her ex husband for not immediately taking a human soul and attacking 6 random other humans for their souls after their son immediately died from doing that.
>lied to you about how dangerous the Underground's inhabitants would be
what? even if not intentionally, the underground is a dangerous place
>her ex husband
Also dangerous and will do exactly what Toriel warns he will do even if he's a lovable person
>chastises her ex husband
she IS being shitty here but she's not saying he should have done that, she's calling out his cowardice in that by waiting for people he was trying to make a promise he hoped he would never have to make good on. "if this was REALLY your goal then you would have done it this way that wouldn't have made the underground suffer this long". It's still shitty of her because the truth is Asgore was in a really shitty position but he WAS running from the situation, he very clearly did not actually want to do what he set himself up to do.
>she immediately attacks someone you're meeting
And both of them were trying to moiderlize you.
>lied to you about how dangerous the Underground's inhabitants would be
How many times did you die on your first playthrough? She doesn't know you can make the timeline your bitch.
>and after presumably spending thousands of years apart immediately chastises her ex husband for not immediately taking a human soul and attacking 6 random other humans for their souls after their son immediately died from doing that.
Asriel was a kid, who didn't really want to hurt anyone, even to free the monsters, which was his only real weakness as the God of Hyperdeath. Asgore was a king and probably also a survivor of the war between humans and monsters, so he'd be more prepared to kill humans. Or he could just hang around a retirement home and wait for six old farts to croak.
Shes not the wisest
The whole kingdom went against her decision in favor of Asgore. Although Sans was on her side, everyone would see her first, notice something wrong, then attack Frisk immediately. Besides, if Frisk died, she would technically benefit by the barrier being destroyed, and everyone goes free. The reason why she wanted Frisk in Ruins is because she can keep them there and keep the other monsters from being aware of Frisk. Once Frisk left, if she interfered, she'd be committing treason against her husband.
Was it poorly explained? Yes. Is it a plot hole? I'd call it hubris. Could Toby have fixed this? Deltarune has party members, but this was his 2nd game, so I cut him some slack.
Besides, gaming needs more thicc women
As a mom she was alright. She was a shit wife and ruler though
>husband is justifiably upset that his kid and his friend get fucking killed by humans
>eclares war on humans in the heat of the moment
>obviously doesn't want to do it, finds any excuse to not do it
>wife just fucking leaves
>Asgore is supposed to be the asshole in the relationship
Yeah always thought that was some bullshit and hopefully they change course on that shit with Deltarune but it doesn't look good. Fucking call Toriel's bullshit out for once.
Did chara kill Asriel on purpose or was it just an accident? The context with the flower pie makes it seem like a silly childish mistake but chara is a twisting fucking psychopath
Chara didn't kill Asriel. It was the humans from the village.
Chara wanted to kill them, Asriel didn't, and they both died as a result.
>ignores the child's needs in a futile effort to fulfill her fantasy of being a mom
She's a cunt
No
Bad wife
Bad mom
Bad queen
Anyone who disagrees has a toriel coom folder
I have that folder and I agree, though.
This, Toriel being kind of bitchy makes the idea of fucking her senseless until she learns lighten up more appealing.
>takes 6 dead kids for her to destroy the exist
>presumably never try’s to stop Asgore until the very end (he immediately stfu when she does)
Shit mom
I want to hold her hand while we kiss and cuddle and do lovey dovey things
built for BBC (big boned cock)
i wonder how sans is doing today
Lovey dovey~?
Yes
yea
>2/2 of her children end up dead
>Tries to kidnap a 3rd as a cope
no
>8 fucking dead children
no, no she wasn't
9th times the charm
She'd probably breastfeed you if you asked, that's pretty good mom material
what a shitty pixel art, you can't even tell where her eyes exactly are. making good pixel art is truly a lost knowledge
the sprites in undertale were pretty bad for sure, but come on anon you can clearly tell where her eyes are. they are even a different color in the real sprite
I'm pretty sure Huntress from DBD is a better mother than her just by virtue of her neglect being out of ignorance rather than overprotective delusion
yeah she makes butterscotch pies
Wait, what the fuck? Why did jannies deleted my post? Are they really that defensive of their waifu to the point of abusing their powers?
>I'll kill you to stop you from killing yourself!
Goat logic. Even Papyrus wasn't this retarded.
She isn't trying to kill you but to subdue you. She purposely tries to avoid hitting you if your health gets too low and is shocked if you run into them on purpose to get a game over
She's trying to force you to kill her so you can prove you're "strong enoug"h to survive without her
If you did Genocide in the Ruins and one shot her she even realises it wasn't you she was protecting
No she isn't. She's trying to stop you. The genocide one is her realizing what a menace you are and shifting it to her trying to keep you there for her original reason would have had the benefit of keep you away from everyone else.
>No she isn't
Anon, this isn't a debate. She wants you to kill her. She's not massively upset and shocked if you choose violence when Mercy doesn't work immediately. You're meant to kill her, get called out on it by Flowey, and feel bad enough to try sparing her.
>You're meant to kill her, get called out on it by Flowey, and feel bad enough to try sparing her.
You're confusing "Toby wants you to do this" with "Toriel wants you to do this".
Her plants are all fake/dead because she can't nurture. Asgore, on the other hand, can do so well and is probably an excellent dad
genocide route was undiluted kinoludo kino graphy kino ludo
Should Undertale be classified as the true ending credits of the old internet?
No, Metal Gear Rising is,
Undertale is a lucky fluke in the stream of shit we are since 2014
Is Deltarune Toriel a good mom? Does she know humans need more than pie to be healthy? Is Kris malnourished?
I don't know if she was a good mom, but I'd make her my wife.
>Blames Asgore for not letting monsters leave the mountain because he believes they'll get hurt
>Does the exact same thing by keeping humans but she can't even follow through with it.
lol
she allowed her real child to be dissolved into mush
To be fair it was a freak thing she didn't know until it was too late
Horrible character.
In fact all of them are utter pieces of shit, including Chara/Frisk in some context
The only one who is too pure for the Undertale world is Papyrus