The Martial class player problem

>Be me
>Always had a love of martial arts
>Grappling, Striking, Weapons fighting, anything that teaches theres an art aspect to violence
>Get into DnD because of nerdy hobby pipeline
>Naturally play martial based characters(Fighters, Barbarians, Monks)
>The beginning of my suffering
>Realise almost no good implementation of grappling arts besides a basic strength check to hold an opponent.
>Realise base game rules had the battle-master fighter as really the only subclass that can do basic martial art moves like Parrying, tripping, etc.
>Monk key feature of stunning strike being only other good implementation of martial prowess
>Really bummed but that's not the worst part
>Figure out most people who play martial classes don't even know how to describe handling an enemy in a martially descriptive manner
>"I swing my sword", "I punch him", "I kick him twice."
>Drives me up a wall every-time
>Feel like I'm surrounded by dweebs who have never done any kind of fighting in their life and don't intend to
>Realise the reason leveling so heavily favours magic users late game is because WoTC are dweebs themselves and don't know how to properly build or expand upon different techniques martial characters should be able to do
>Limb snapping/crippling, choking unconscious, consecutive blows to a specific body part having a certain effects, throws to the ground as attacks, parry strikes once per enemy turn that eat up a reaction(not limited to subclasses), etc.
>So much to be built on but WoTC are some dweebs

Could they not consult anyone on this? Could they not build it out more? It would make martials less reliant on items in the later game and still allow them to be as viable as magic users at the same time. Has anyone else ever had thoughts similar to this? Maybe this is the price I pay for being a dork with my hobbies as a martial artist.

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  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    have you tried not playing that goyslop lmao

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Every single thing on this board is goyslop if we're talking about literally playing a specific form of make believe that gives you no tangible value outside the game

      Play a vuman monk with the unarmed fighting style
      And read up on the rules
      You can grapple, choke, push, disarm by attacking and replacing that attack with one of the options above

      either that or play a different game, there are more systems that could cater to your niche anon

      Yes I can but usually all of those take an entire action when realistically they should be counted as one attack or as the bonus action to do on your turn. It's really frustrating.

      Are you just playing 5e? Most previous editions of D&D had supplemental rules for more descriptive combat and xtra maneuvers. Base rule books eschew them specifically because they slow down combat and old-school D&D was/is an exploration game more than a combat game. Nonetheless, many have felt as you do and there are rules to accommodate. Hope this helps.

      Yeah just 5e cause it's all I know, but also it attracts the biggest crowd and amount of ideas so it makes it easier to find and join games. Thanks for the info though.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        They don't take a turn, read the rules
        You spend you action attacking you can use one of the attacks to do one of the moves instead
        You should try reading the rules

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I've never been able to find the concrete rules for any of these, and the ones I thought were deemed the official ones had them taking up an entire action. Maybe I read the wrong rules but I don't have time usually to find stuff like this. Can you help me find where these official rules are in 5e instead of acting like everyone has the time or ability to memorize and retain these things? Lot more helpful that way

          >guys why doesn't the roleplaying game have detailed simulation style rules for unarmed grappling which would take up a minimum of ten pages of autistic bullshit no one wants to deal with
          They should make the game realistic and you instantly die when unarmed against dudes with breastplates, helmets, and weapons.

          >Mfw heavily armoured warriors throughout history resulted to throws and grappling to get advantage on a proned target
          >Mfw morons think I'm asking for hyperrealism instead of better fleshed out combat system for martial abilities

          Go be unhelpful somewhere else.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Lmao why would you try to throw a dude when you had a sword? Let me drop my weapon and try to put you in a leg lock good sir lol. You're asking for autistic hyperfocus on gay shit no one else cares about.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Be DnD system
              >Have prone condition that makes attack against a creature be at advantage
              >"lol why not just use sword with no advantage"

              Anon are you moronic?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Who's talking about dnd?

                Because a sword can't penetrate plate armor without extreme difficulty. But a dagger can be slid into a helmet or joint easily if you have the guy pinned. Again, this is what happened irl.

                Well hey feel free to drop your weapon and try some wrestling moves when anyone else is just gonna use a hammer.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Op.

                You don't need to drop your weapon to grapple in real life.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                [...]
                Anon there’s no way you think like this

                [...]
                Admirable of you to try and fix stupid.

                Play The Riddle of Steel. Here's a discord server with all the pdfs available for free download. I reccomend the Core rules, The Flower of Battle, and the companion book
                https://discord.gg/vBQzg49J
                There, I fixed your problem. Play a system that actually does what you want instead of crying as if this is some insurmountable task.

                Throwing a guy on the ground makes him easier to stab and makes it harder for him to stab you.

                There's no way you guys think greek or roman warriors were tossing away their swords and running in to pile driver each other. Man, you see someone complaining about "historical accuracy" and they probably just watched too many movies.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >gayreeks
                >Wasting an opportunity to bear hag some dude
                I'll give you Romans, they were fairly autistic people, but Greeks were notorious homosexuals and they'd absolutely do exactly that.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Again. Not what we were talking about.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Where you talking about something else where you wouldn't be wrong?

                >HEMA
                >rotting your mind

                Hema is competitive ren fair but people pretend it's historical. It's actually pretty close to what warhammer is for the tabletop, really.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Hema is competitive ren fair
                ?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Hema is competitive ren fair but people pretend it's historical. It's actually pretty close to what warhammer is for the tabletop, really.
                Do you mean larpers? Because sure, it depends on the HEMA group. But if you're meaning those 'sword battles' where it's a bunch of dudes in armor whacking at each other with blunt swords, that shit isn't historical. But actual HEMA groups are.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Because a sword can't penetrate plate armor without extreme difficulty. But a dagger can be slid into a helmet or joint easily if you have the guy pinned. Again, this is what happened irl.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Who's talking about dnd?
              [...]
              Well hey feel free to drop your weapon and try some wrestling moves when anyone else is just gonna use a hammer.

              Anon there’s no way you think like this

              Op.

              You don't need to drop your weapon to grapple in real life.

              Admirable of you to try and fix stupid.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Play The Riddle of Steel. Here's a discord server with all the pdfs available for free download. I reccomend the Core rules, The Flower of Battle, and the companion book
              https://discord.gg/vBQzg49J
              There, I fixed your problem. Play a system that actually does what you want instead of crying as if this is some insurmountable task.

              Throwing a guy on the ground makes him easier to stab and makes it harder for him to stab you.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Because hand to hand combat was a part of medieval warfare. That's not up for debate.

              You tried being snarky and all you did was make a moronic fool of yourself, you limp wristed homosexual. You've clearly never fought a second of your life, you soft, weak, useless nerd.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                If you've ever watched HEMA videos or know anything about sword fighting, swords aren't very good at cutting through metal armor. You have to direct the sword to the right places, often through creative methods. You might not care, but martial has always been shit in part because of a lack of this. I'm not OP, but I'm still going to blast you over that.
                [...]
                Based.

                Don't be ridiculous. Why would the tech level suddenly regress like that? We invented swords because they were better at killing people than our hands were. Even before attacking someone hand to hand they'd probably pick up a rock or something lying around. It's like you think the modern military would all throw away their guns and charge into combat to punch each other for no reason.

                If you're gonna give each other brojobs go find somewhere else to do it. Maybe somewhere you practice "wrestling".

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              If you've ever watched HEMA videos or know anything about sword fighting, swords aren't very good at cutting through metal armor. You have to direct the sword to the right places, often through creative methods. You might not care, but martial has always been shit in part because of a lack of this. I'm not OP, but I'm still going to blast you over that.

              Because hand to hand combat was a part of medieval warfare. That's not up for debate.

              You tried being snarky and all you did was make a moronic fool of yourself, you limp wristed homosexual. You've clearly never fought a second of your life, you soft, weak, useless nerd.

              Based.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Alright 5e.tools is what you want, And I have the right to act snotty because...
            SHOVE:You can knock a creature back, If you can make multiple attacks using the attack action you can choose to substitute one of your attacks to shove
            FOUND in the PLAYERS HAND BOOK
            GRAPPLE: You can try to grab a creature using a free hand, if you can make multiple attacks you can choose to substitute one of your attacks to grapple
            ALSO found in the Players Hand Book
            Disarm: You can use a weapon attack to disarm a target
            Found in the dungeon master guide
            Choking:When a creature is choking it can survive a number of round equal to its constitution modifer
            Also found in the Players Hand book
            Read the BOOK

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Perhaps having the actual book would have helped me instead of using websites and youtube to learn as much of the game as I can(I refuse to give WoTC money after the OGL thing that happened a few months after I started playing). You did earn your right to be a dick, I'll give you that and I apologise for my ignorance on the subject. Even still I wish that there were official throw to the ground/trip(not just shove), limb breaking, specific targeted strike effects and inherent parry style mechanics for every martial class not just certain ones. It just feels like marital players are shafted a bit in that regard. Maybe it's more of what your DM lets you do as a player but it's hard to do that when your DM knows jack shit about fighting.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Alright then man, you'll love 5e.tools then
                It contains a lot of rules and statblocks, so you can find just about anything there if you search hard enough
                I'm also sure you can get most of the books for free now as a pdf online so try that as well

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I will say the problem with called strikes would, imo, be everyone spamming called strikes to the head, along with vastly boosted lethality, which I'm okay with in most games but not d&d.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Would you think a good balance to be that the martial has to get at least 2 or higher above the enemy AC to do such a thing? And possibly that the effect only comes into play after a certain number of said 2 or higher strikes/successful strength checks(for grappling sakes)?

                Alright then man, you'll love 5e.tools then
                It contains a lot of rules and statblocks, so you can find just about anything there if you search hard enough
                I'm also sure you can get most of the books for free now as a pdf online so try that as well

                I'll check the site out when I can. Maybe see if I can find a way to get the books without paying as well from somewhere on the internet.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                2 is a very small difficulty increase for breaking a leg or decapitation. But you're on the right track imo.

                One way you could do it is to add things like Stunning Blows which are harder to land, bludgeoning only but apply a penalty, and then fluff the exact strike depending on the result. Normal hit? Diaphragm got paralysed briefly, his defences, movement and accuracy take a brief penalty and he's silenced.

                Roll a criticalon a stunning blow? Throat strike or broken nose, he gets increased penalties AND has to pass a Con check or fall prone.

                Just

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Choking:When a creature is choking it can survive a number of round equal to its constitution modifer
              NTA, but those are the rules for suffocation, for when a creature isn't able to hold its breath underwater. There's no sort of Choke attack option unless you get into homebrew and houserule territory.
              Disarming itself being in the Dungeon Master's Guide perfectly explains why somebody new to the game wouldn't be familiar with it, as it's an optional rule in a book that isn't directed towards players.
              And I'd also note that Shoving and Grappling both require a good Athletics score, and doing that as a Monk requires gimping your character heavily. Not that Strength-based characters are really any better at it. Grapple+Shove combos are a very niche tactic that also falls off hard as soon as you start fighting larger enemies.

              5e's baseline combat options are a complete joke, as evidenced by the fact that WotC themselves is adding on new properties to weapons for the new edition so that you're actually allowed to hit someone with a weapon while also doing a small bonus effect, just like how 90% of basic cantrips in the game work.
              There's no need to lie about what's in the game to try and bolster your point.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >this shit thread
      >again
      >and again
      >and again

      OP is baiting.

      Maybe if you stopped spamming the same reply, he'd stop making the same thread.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >if you stop giving the objectively correct answer morons will stop asking moronic questions

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      fpbp

      also, why would a marvel superhero game like dungndogshit have hema techniques? are you smoking crack?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Fpbp.

      Every single thing on this board is goyslop if we're talking about literally playing a specific form of make believe that gives you no tangible value outside the game

      [...]
      Yes I can but usually all of those take an entire action when realistically they should be counted as one attack or as the bonus action to do on your turn. It's really frustrating.

      [...]
      Yeah just 5e cause it's all I know, but also it attracts the biggest crowd and amount of ideas so it makes it easier to find and join games. Thanks for the info though.

      >Every single thing on this board is goyslop
      It's not.
      >if we're talking about literally playing a specific form of make believe that gives you no tangible value outside the game
      That's not what goyslop is.

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Play a vuman monk with the unarmed fighting style
    And read up on the rules
    You can grapple, choke, push, disarm by attacking and replacing that attack with one of the options above

    either that or play a different game, there are more systems that could cater to your niche anon

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Are you just playing 5e? Most previous editions of D&D had supplemental rules for more descriptive combat and xtra maneuvers. Base rule books eschew them specifically because they slow down combat and old-school D&D was/is an exploration game more than a combat game. Nonetheless, many have felt as you do and there are rules to accommodate. Hope this helps.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It is nearly impossible to find an irl group that plays anything other than 5e.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Offer to run the group you're playing with different system then.
        Give your Dm a break and maybe they will like it enough to try and run it for you

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >*crickets*
          Why are the people who complain about balance in games always the last to raise their hand to run one?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It really isn't. Make some friends.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Last time I visited my local games club meeting they were playing
        >7th sea
        >Ryuutama
        >Call of Cthulhu
        >The Witcher RPG
        all in my shitty third world country. To be fair, they also played 5e, but there was game variety

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Play PF2e martials are fun in it. And paizo actually regularly releases new stuff for both GMs and Players.

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It sounds like what you're angry about is that people just say "I attack him with my sword", but that's not exclusive to martial arts. You don't need to know judo styles irl to play unarmed. You don't need to know katas irl to use a sword. This is by design too, you don't need to be a great public speaker to roll charisma. This isn't a 5e martial problem, this is a "your players" problem. Is the wizard going into detail about how he wiggles his fingers and he recites his incantations? Is the cleric giving you the word-for-word prayers he's using to cast heal every turn? No?

    As for the combat details you're describing in detail - like more combat options for parrying, crippling, limb targeting - you have explicitly chosen to play a system with simplified combat. It's like playing Apocalypse World and complaining that it doesn't consider wound location, cover penetration, shell shock, and burst fire mode. If you want those things, play Twilight 2000! You NEED to teach yourself a better system.

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I feel your pain OP, but it really just comes down to exactly what you've said: WotC is staffed by a bunch of dweebs, both incapable of designing a more uninteresting combat system and unwilling to slaughter the sacred cows that drag down the game.

    You need to play something else besides D&D and D&D-adjacent games. No idea what, however.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >guys why doesn't the roleplaying game have detailed simulation style rules for unarmed grappling which would take up a minimum of ten pages of autistic bullshit no one wants to deal with
    They should make the game realistic and you instantly die when unarmed against dudes with breastplates, helmets, and weapons.

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >He's playing 5e when Shadow of the Demon Lord is right there being an objectively better d20 skills-lite tabletop with an official setting nobody gives a shit (hehe) about

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    All of that requires Wizards to give a frick about non casters. Looking in the fifth edition players handbook, skills take up something like six pages and are folded into the ability score section, and things like toolkits don’t even have attached ability scores. There is no guide for how to set DCs for skill tests beyond a simple “5, 10, 15 etc based on how difficult you think it should be”, and no information on how this interacts with advantage/disadvantage. It’s all a vague “figure it out lmao”.
    In that same book, the magic rules occupy one-third of the pages. In terms of later releases, Casters routinely get better additions and updates.
    D&D will not give you what you want, because Wizards doesn’t care.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I know they don't care and I try to see if DM's can add in extra types of things marital can do, but sometimes trying to explain it to someone who doesn't fight and get it approved to do(even if it's no bullshit stuff fighters IRL can and routinely practice) is hard. Especially if they think magic items is what is meant to stop the powercreep of casters instead of actually implementing more to the martial system.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    DnD is a horrible system and you should play something else, like

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Sounds like you want Pathfinder 2nd edition.

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If you want minutiae of particular don't use a game that is truck in a wargamish level of abstraction like d&d, picrel is a solution.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      As stated here , if you want to go for hemagay autistic extremes of details gurps+ low tech + martial arts is the way to go, listen to batman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgX5kYyaZmA

  13. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Feel like I'm surrounded by dweebs who have never done any kind of fighting in their life and don't intend to
    ...
    >Could they not consult anyone on this?

    You answered your own question, their dweebiness prevents them from consulting others.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The middle two panels have never, ever happened. Sports players in high school are implacably hostile to other forms of life.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        that was inaccurate to my experience
        the football guys at my school tried to get into the nerd clubs cause they wanted our lardasses on the frontlines to bowl people over

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          To be fair it probably varies by school, thinking about it. As I remember it, my entire high school education was like the kitchen scene from Jurassic Park.

  14. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  15. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I know what you feel brother.
    I was studying blade for the better half of my life, and I am yet to find a system that reflects this subtle art in somewhat decent way. People playing swordsman don't even know the difference between lunge and flunge!

  16. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    bro, leave HEMA and 5e, both are rotting your mind.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >HEMA
      >rotting your mind

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      You're right about 5E, but wrong about HEMA, anon.

  17. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I am also a dweeb who knows nothing about fighting, but I’m a determined and autistic dweeb who knows nothing about fighting, so I tried my best:
    https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Vp2RHfxuAwBI

    Let me know what obvious things I’m missing so I can tighten it up. Ignore the psionics, they’re only there because they interact with a few of the martial subclasses and it was easier than linking across different brews.

  18. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The nerds won't let the sporty guys outmatch them in a world of their own design.

  19. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Ive seen campaigns where you narrate your own fights, and there's no set actions and movement limits or what have you and its just pure storytelling, you and the dm. The rolls you do in the game I saw still include the charisma/dex stats and the like, but those influence the story you told involving those type of actions, and you roll to see if your story about what you did succeeds. If you want more freedom than an rpg level up system, you can try looking into stuff like that, though ideally you'd have a dm who can keep up with your fighting ideas and give you a challenge

  20. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    GURPS you twat

  21. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Grappling is already dense and obtuse to an outsider, nevermind to describe. There probably isn't a good way to simulate grappling in any TTRPGs, just imagine trying to describe a jiu jitsu match in real time.

  22. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >WoTC are dweebs themselves and don't know how to properly build or expand upon different techniques martial characters should be able to do
    Close. It's because they were bullied as kids and hate the idea of physical prowess being a viable method compared to mental prowess.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Actually they're super jacked, but they're very humble and understand that truly brains is stronger than brawn.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Go frick yourself, Mearls.

  23. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Your problem is assuming that the simplicity of mundane combat is a bug, not a feature.
    DnD, and most roleplaying games really, aim to represent combat in a simple and easy to follow way. The "I attack him" vagueness is intentional. Getting any deeper would slow an already cumbersome system down further.
    Furthermore, its a feature in a more broad sense. DnD caters to two broad and generally incompatible types of players, simultaneously in the same game. The players who play casters generally want to feel powerful, they are after a power fantasy of a mighty mage. Players who gravitate toward martials are usually after a sort of conan-y experience, something more generally grounded where its not even so much martial prowess that wins the day, but clever thinking. An underdog sort of story. These two groups of players make up the majority of the hobby and WotC slams them into the same game. The martial caster divide is a result of catering to both types of players at the same time. Any moron understands that to put martials and casters on the same power level is easy. But most martial players don't want to play that high powered magic warriors and most caster players don't want to play low magic ritual casters who might squeeze off a lightning bolt once a day if the wind is right and they appealed to the right spirits.

    So DnD is never going to have an in depth martial combat system for the same reason its never going to change casters to have fiddly magic rituals. Its not in the design ethos. Its intentionally not that way.

    As for your martial arts autism, its another problem entirely. Learn to accept some level of gamification if your system does not specifically set out to simulate combat. I get annoyed at almost any media trying to depict anything in space, but I can still play games because I understand doing things 100% realistically is gay and boring.

  24. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Maybe this is the price I pay for being a dork with my hobbies as a martial artist
    The irony is most martial artists enthusiasts are nerdy dweebs too. It's another variation of the katakana dorks. Or the CoD gun nuts. You study the way of the fist, katana guy studies the way of the blade, fa/tg/uys study the way of the dice, etc etc.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >katakana dorks
      While you were swinging a blade around, I studied the pen.

  25. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You are looking for GURPS. I recommend starting with "Fantastic Dungeon Grappling".

  26. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Please make this game.
    >You no longer have a martial class problem you have a lazy dev problems and that lazy dev is you.

  27. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Seeing as this is obviously based on the D&D framework I think weapon skills should be a thing. Create a bunch of general and weapon specific abilities that you can access by virtue of having the weapon but may be locked behind things like needing martial proficiency or a feat like GWM.

    Fighting styles should be remade to make use of the weapon skills adding modifications and unique uses.

    Naturally, the Fighter should be the best at using this and its class should be able do things Ranger, Barbarian, Rogue, or anyone that can get martial proficiency can't do.

    In essence, the Fighter should be the martial wizard.

  28. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Feel like I'm surrounded by dweebs who have never done any kind of fighting in their life and don't intend to
    uh, correct
    sorry you had to find out that escapism dice games are played by shut ins and escapists, in such a disheartening way.
    I also can recommend GURPS. Playing a martial in GURPS has so many options, I feel a primal, autistic joy when I do it. Maybe you can find yourself there?

  29. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Maybe this is the price I pay for being a dork with my hobbies as a martial artist.
    It's the price you pay for playing /that/ game. Trite but true.

  30. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    Have you tried playing 4e martials?

  31. 1 week ago
    Anonymous

    I’m making fighter games right now, both dming existing systems but also creating my own

    How would you recommend making martial deeper?

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