[...]
Midichlorians are secretly based because the disappointment and mundane feeling people got from their reveal is accurate to people's stupid religious beliefs being BTFO'd IRL
Finding out your telekinesis is just a product of bacteria in your blood is just like when people IRL found out witchcraft and miracles and other stupid shit were fake and that the real solution to all questions is science
People that think midichlorians removes mysticism from the Force are dumb/speed-readers.
Midichlorians are a good test to see if someone is actually are Star Wars fan or not. If they're offended by Midichlorians, then they aren't. The original trilogy made it extremely clear that the Force was something some people had, and some didn't, and even then in varying strengths. Anybody who thought they could become attuned to the force by training was a retarded secondary who wasn't paying attention to the movies. Midichlorians are merely a way to give a power level mechanic to the force. The only valid criticism of Midichlorians are criticisms of power level mechanics (and most power level issues never really became an issue in George's ST).
mostly gets it but is missing a key aspect. Midichlorians do not "create" the Force or give host Force powers. They are essentially microscopic communicators with the Force, the more you have the stronger "the voice" of the Force is. It's still an energy field that penetrates and binds all living beings. It is just interacted with subconsciously on a cellular level through the midichondria--I mean the mitochlorians. George created them as a diagetic way of determining Force sensitivity and the notion of certain bloodlines being stronger in the Force was mentioned in the OT so biological means to access The Force existed before the prequels.
midichlorians was the most retarded thing george lucas could come with.
and that's saying a lot.
Midichlorians are secretly based because the disappointment and mundane feeling people got from their reveal is accurate to people's stupid religious beliefs being BTFO'd IRL
Finding out your telekinesis is just a product of bacteria in your blood is just like when people IRL found out witchcraft and miracles and other stupid shit were fake and that the real solution to all questions is science
>Finding out your telekinesis is just a product of bacteria in your blood
Midiclorians aren't what generate the force, they're just attracted to entities with an attachment to it. Still stupid.
Why do people say this in complete contravention of Liam Neeson's dialog
I just rewatched it and he clearly states that midichlorians are a parasite within all life that takes control of the host by making them hear voices. giving them powers to do their bidding. pretty sick imo.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
So basically like DNA in the real world.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Its more like the Mitochondria, the mitochondrial engine, and probably some quantum jibber jabber atp/blood brain barrier. Explains why the Sith always bask in red light. A funny coincidence with no greater meaning. Though he may not be talking literally either or providing background to some strange theory. I find it hilarious but it kinda destroys some settings in subplots.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Lucas learned about Mitochondria in real life and thought "What if I copied that, but made them magic?"
Explain to me how science makes the miracles of life less awe inducing
Because you know lightning doesn't come from God himself doesn't mean you can't get killed by it, or doesn't explain why the rules of reality were formed in such a way to make it possible to happen
The same thing can be said about midiclorians
Science pretend it explains everything about the universe and all its mysteries even though all it does is describing its regularities, nothing else
>Finding out your telekinesis is just a product of bacteria in your blood
This isn't really the case though, the force isn't midichlorians they just allow one to better hear it.
>Finding out your telekinesis is just a product of bacteria in your blood is just like when people IRL found out witchcraft and miracles and other stupid shit were fake and that the real solution to all questions is science
Psyop around 2016 to corral younger anons into self-defeating "God wins in the end" plan-trusting.
Flat Earth is the next psyop. Pretty soon you'll have to pretend to believe it otherwise you'll get shouted down on Ganker.
Ganker is the most contrarian place on the internet, Anons here will do the opposite of whatever is mainstream. It just so happens that being a Christian Fundamentalist and upstanding, responsible citizen is the opposite of mainstream now.
Midichlorians are a good test to see if someone is actually are Star Wars fan or not. If they're offended by Midichlorians, then they aren't. The original trilogy made it extremely clear that the Force was something some people had, and some didn't, and even then in varying strengths. Anybody who thought they could become attuned to the force by training was a retarded secondary who wasn't paying attention to the movies. Midichlorians are merely a way to give a power level mechanic to the force. The only valid criticism of Midichlorians are criticisms of power level mechanics (and most power level issues never really became an issue in George's ST).
>Midichlorians are a good test to see if someone is actually are Star Wars fan or not.
Big words for someone who enjoyed Gendy israeliteovski's cartoon enough to use a still as a reaction image.
Midichlorians have nothing to do with "power level", they literally just serve as an explanation for how the Force interacts with organics and how different characters have more aptitude with the Force than others.
Nothing that happens in the story is determined by how many Midichlorians someone has, if it was Kenobi wouldn't have been able to butcher Anakin.
the text on the left is exactly what happens in the prequels and OG? Anakin was a prophecy to be fulfilled (except its not in the way people thought) and the only one who could raise him to NOT fulfill that prophecy is a jedi who is more morally grey, who winds up getting stabbed in the gut because he let his emotions get the best of him in a fight. Anakin grows up to fulfil that prophecy and murder all the fuckin jedi because he didnt have his morally grey daddy to raise him right.
What did it take to get there? The lives of nearly every jedi. If Anakin had his proper dad he woulda been fine and dunked on Dr Palper and there would be no story. all the more reinforcing the idea that the Voice works in mysterious ways.
As well it is seen in pretty much most of the OT. Many things seem like luck but as Obi-Wan said there is no such thing as luck. Everyone gets put into the position they needed to be in, there are no coincidences the force makes a point to move the pieces into the right spots.
You don't get star wars, and the more time passes the more i feel like nobody gets star wars.
What makes star wars good is pure and simply the aesthetics. George Lucas had a good sense for it despite being a dumbass in many respect, which is why he created something no one else could with simple concepts anyone else could use.
Of course, Kotor does have the merit of taking that and building some interesting space fantasy beyond the aesthetics. But shit like the jedi or sith philosophies didn't even exist, and guess what they weren't *needed*.
If I recall correctly, in George's notes for A New Hope, Vader was titled as Lord of the Sith, though it didn't make it into the movie itself. So Sith have been in George's mind for the mirror of the Jedi from the beginning.
People are retarded. They don't give the force, they're a parasite that naturally gravitate towards people who are more attuned to the force. Talent makes others more connected off the bat, but it's anyone's game if they can dedicate themselves enough to learn and practice it. It's like miniature lifeforms feeding off the warm thermal soup beneath the ocean, or small mites living in our hair, on our teeth, in our skin. It's a good test to see if someone is powerful with the force, but it is basically meaningless when it comes to becoming strong in it overall.
are you talking about that one scene in Shadows of the Empire where he fixes himself with the dark side but loses it because starts feeling happy for like 5 seconds
honestly I'm just surprised at myself that I remember so much about that book in such detail, pretty sure the last time I read it was like 20 years ago
nah anakin/vader was too stupid to pull a Darth Plagueis
It's about both and more. So shut the fuck up
>The dark side has come before, and it will come again. Do not underestimate its power. That is why I have devoted my life to teaching Jedi Knights, to strengthen the light side against the tide of darkness that is sure to come."
Grey Jedi will never understand Vodo-Siosk Baas teachings, only Luke did.
>anakin/vader was too stupid to pull a Darth Plagueis
Anakin hated himself for murdering his wife. Why would he want to fix himself? The galaxy has nothing he actually wants, until he realizes Padme had given birth to their son.
Midichlorians are a good test to see if someone is actually are Star Wars fan or not. If they're offended by Midichlorians, then they aren't. The original trilogy made it extremely clear that the Force was something some people had, and some didn't, and even then in varying strengths. Anybody who thought they could become attuned to the force by training was a retarded secondary who wasn't paying attention to the movies. Midichlorians are merely a way to give a power level mechanic to the force. The only valid criticism of Midichlorians are criticisms of power level mechanics (and most power level issues never really became an issue in George's ST).
[...]
People that think midichlorians removes mysticism from the Force are dumb/speed-readers. [...] mostly gets it but is missing a key aspect. Midichlorians do not "create" the Force or give host Force powers. They are essentially microscopic communicators with the Force, the more you have the stronger "the voice" of the Force is. It's still an energy field that penetrates and binds all living beings. It is just interacted with subconsciously on a cellular level through the midichondria--I mean the mitochlorians. George created them as a diagetic way of determining Force sensitivity and the notion of certain bloodlines being stronger in the Force was mentioned in the OT so biological means to access The Force existed before the prequels.
I actually agree with this.
They were supposed to be just little parasites that feed off of the force but Lucas fucking sucks at explaining everything and just doubled down on it for the next ten years until he sold it.
To me, the whole "midichlorians" thing merely served to demonstrate their collective hubris. They thought just because they could measure something with their heckin' science that they were the masters of the universe. The jedi assumed that could do no wrong, and that they were masters of the force. The truth, as it turned out, is that they're tiny, insignificant specks in an infinite universe, dabbling in powers far beyond the scope they can truly understand, and they got knocked down a few pegs for it. By episode 4, whatever jedi remain are very much humbled, and have returned to their spiritual roots.
Assuming that the Force has a sentient will like Qui-Gon thinks it does, Anakin was dropped in the galaxy as much in order to test the Jedi as he was conceived to btfo the Sith. As Qui-Gon tells Shmi, if Anakin was born in the Core, he would have been taken to the Jedi shortly after birth and indoctrinated in their ways. Instead, he got yeeted to the Outer Rim where he would be inserted into the Jedi ideology after gaining attachment to his mother and an understanding of how the imperfections of the galaxy (slavery in the Outer Rim) impact the people who have to live in it.
The Jedi failed and Anakin blew them the fuck out, allowing Anakin's son to rebuild the Jedi into a form more suited to following the will of the Force.
Disney's movies aren't real.
>she’s also a massive hypocrite since her strength comes from the Force.
The lesson of strength she teaches to the exile is to cultivate a power that doesn't stem from the force.
Which I've always found retarded since the Force is a part of the user. Imagine if I started going around telling people to cultivate strength that doesn't stem from their muscles. or to learn to think without their brains.
Kreia is literally a sith, every word that comes out of her mouth is a brazen lie meant to demoralize you so she can achieve greater power. Shit like this is why I'm confident nobody who likes KOTOR 2 ever played it, they've only seen a few screenshots on Ganker and reddit and though the pseudointellectual fedora-tipping was the entire game.
>Was Kreia based?
No, she is just a mouthpiece for one of the writers who thinks that Star Wars is childish to begin with. Kreia is their attempt at making it more "mature", but it just comes off as someone who is bitter that people prefer space wizards to tolkein-shit.
nagger I LIKE KOTOR 2, much more so than 1 because it treats the story a lot more serious than pretty much any other SW media, but you can't deny that Kreia may as well just be a self insert from Chris Avellone.
[...] >missing the point
the point is that she's EVIL and is manipulating you because she's the fucking villain you're supposed to defeat in the end, this isn't Citizen Kane here
i love kotor 2 but you can trace all the retarded grey morality in disney star wars from it so in that, it has done more damage to star wars than anyone could possibly imagine
Imagine being this retarded. Kreia is Nietzsche's arguments from Beyond Good and Evil implemented in Star Wars. She's not Avellone's self insert, she's Avellone's insert of master morality.
I did not claim that Nietzsche was or was not a pseud. Doesn't remove the fact that Avellone was blatantly inspired by Beyond Good and Evil for Kotor 2 and writing Kreia.
At least she encourages you to also partake in and expand upon your mundane non-force related skills. She also appears to not treat non force-senstives with condescension, like many sith do openly and some jedi do at least covertly or under the guise of benevolence. She respects will and the ability to impose that will uponother people and the galaxy at large.
She uses the force, but more as a means to an end than an end in itself, while jedia derive some sort of divine mission from it and convntional sith intoxicate them on the power the force provides with both sides becoming dependent to it in a sense. So you could make the case for Kreia not being that much of a hypocrite, but in the end it might have just been a break from character in her case to allow her to do star wars-y stuff. Having her run around until the end with a blaster or a vibro blade would have been disappointing for players and while Obsidian took some liberties with the material they got, they had to still adhere to the basic tar wars formula to a degree.
In the end, this might have resulted in a slightly watered down Kreia character, but that was as good as it was going to get. Imagine you let Abrams write Kotor2. If Kreia would appear at all, she would have been some background character being strawmanned to convey the message to dont dwell n the details too much, heres another lasersword scene you like so much!
>Also, Kreia makes some good points, but she’s also a massive hypocrite since her strength comes from the Force.
I think that's the point man - it's like a drunk telling you between drinks to never become an alcoholic because it'll ruin your fucking life
>Evil Wizards shoot lighting >Good Wizards psychically throw people >NNMHMMH BUT BUT, I WANNA SHOOT LIGHTING AND BE A SUPER GOOD GUY! >AND THE JEDI ARE LIKE MY DAD THEY CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO! >I'M THE SUPER DUPER GOOD GUY!
Being a space wizard is cool but the games are gay
Also >the Force in other Star Wars
They canonized KOTOR's bullshit.
With fucking Rey.
Kreia is literally a sith, every word that comes out of her mouth is a brazen lie meant to demoralize you so she can achieve greater power. Shit like this is why I'm confident nobody who likes KOTOR 2 ever played it, they've only seen a few screenshots on Ganker and reddit and though the pseudointellectual fedora-tipping was the entire game.
>Was Kreia based?
No, she is just a mouthpiece for one of the writers who thinks that Star Wars is childish to begin with. Kreia is their attempt at making it more "mature", but it just comes off as someone who is bitter that people prefer space wizards to tolkein-shit.
You're all either retarded or intentionally acting retarded. I refuse to believe you could intentionally miss the point this hard, however.
nagger I LIKE KOTOR 2, much more so than 1 because it treats the story a lot more serious than pretty much any other SW media, but you can't deny that Kreia may as well just be a self insert from Chris Avellone.
>Kreia is their attempt at making it more "mature", but it just comes off as someone who is bitter that people prefer space wizards to tolkein-shit.
I reject this outright.
>you can't deny that Kreia may as well just be a self insert from Chris Avellone.
This I can reject, but would accept given any argument to demonstrate it.
Literally everything posted here that isn't hard data is a personal opinion you stupid homosexual. Lurk moar before making such a fucking redundant, worthless comment that would be worth jack shit on a blog post.
shut up you retarded fucking homosexual there's no culture on Ganker to protect. There is no point to lurking. Nobody does it, Because Ganker is a cesspool with no genuine discussion or anyone with any value. If you want to post that lurk moar shit how about you go to a board that isn't meant for literal 12 year old retards to post on?
>NO NO NO YOU'RE NOT SMART >I'M THE SMART KING OF SMARTOPIA. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT I'M ACTUALLY DEEP AND COMPLEX AND MY JEDI POWER FANTASY LETS ME USE BOTH SIDES FORCE POWERS >I'M ALSO A DOUBLE GOOD GUY BEYOND JEDIS
It's perfectly functional for a game, but it's fucking retarded otherwise.
Simple rules.
The force is literally just hindu mysticism. It's impossible for Star Wars to be intellectual because it ripped off a debunked theology created by people that think eating cow dookie gives them super powers.
No theology or mystic structure was ever truly debunked, you're just sitting behind barriers of an entity, same barriers of which prevent the aforementioned by you people from descending even further into rot.
Kreia is literally a sith, every word that comes out of her mouth is a brazen lie meant to demoralize you so she can achieve greater power. Shit like this is why I'm confident nobody who likes KOTOR 2 ever played it, they've only seen a few screenshots on Ganker and reddit and though the pseudointellectual fedora-tipping was the entire game.
[...]
[...]
You're all either retarded or intentionally acting retarded. I refuse to believe you could intentionally miss the point this hard, however.
>missing the point
the point is that she's EVIL and is manipulating you because she's the fucking villain you're supposed to defeat in the end, this isn't Citizen Kane here
>how am I supposed to react
To what, the revealing of their names as DARTH Traya, DARTH Sion, DARTH Nihlus? You didn't think their transparently superficia; take on Nietszhean ubermensch was sincere do you?
>revealing of their names as DARTH Traya
Her name isn't Darth Traya, it's Kreia. She was Darth Traya.
>You didn't think their transparently superficial take on Nietszhean ubermensch was sincere do you?
You call that superficial, yet your take of " she's just...LE SITH" isn't? Fucking Christ you're dumb.
You unironically don't get it.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
You strike me as the sort of fellow who thinks Paradise Lost was pro-Satan
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
No, while it offers a sympathetic view on Satan, ultimately he is depicted as evil.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
it kinda is, even the Bible is pro Satan. Even when slandering him people accidentally admit the truth
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Even Milton was unsure if he did. So people aren’t wrong thinking either way and you college lecture was a lie.
>dude balance lol >literally does insane amounts of evil dark side shit and eventually pulls out a red lightsaber, becomes Darth Kreia and fights you >she's not a sith you just don't get it
she's literally the equivalent of some commie going on and on about peace and dialogue knowing that all she's doing is making you weaker and questioning yourself and your cause.
>absolute redditor keeps on redditing
Only fucking subjective morality fags are stupid enough to fall for Darth Trayas talking points without realizing that whether she realizes it or not she was "seduced" by the dark side and it's temptations and is carrying out traditional dark side goals.
>that whether she realizes it or not she was "seduced" by the dark side and it's temptations and is carrying out traditional dark side goals
That's an entirely separate discussion.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
It's really not. She's a poster child for the "I'm too smart and unbiased to fall for propaganda" mindset.
Kreia is literally Juan Posadas. Her entire point is to nuking everyone back into the stone age, so people can finally be free of capitalism (the force)
History is full of "neutral third parties" who are very clearly aligned to one side or the other and simply pretending to be neutral to further the goals of their side. It's a classic trope and the funny part is that the "you missed the point crowd" are the ones missing the point
Juan Posadas never pretended to be a "neutral third party". He's a radical communist and believed that the only way to make communism happen is by cleansing the world in nuclear hellfire, destroying the infrastructure necessary for the capitalist mode of economics and society. You might disagree with his means and you might call him insane, but you can hardly disagree with the consequences of nuking society back to the stone age, with regards to global capitalism.
And the same applies to Kreia. She has an agenda and it's very clear. Severing everyone from the Force, including herself. Allowing them to act for themselves, rather than by having an invisible force of contrivance dictate everyone's fates and actions at all time. Of course, the consequences of making such a thing happen are comparable to cleansing the world in nuclear hellfire.
You can hardly fault her for her plan or her goal, only for the her underestimating how far the reach of the Force goes.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Nah you sound a lot more retarded the more you speak. >can't fault her
Yeah you can, if you weren't as retarded as you are
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Do you think that global capitalism would remain after a full-on nuclear exchange?
Juan Posadas did not. The reasoning is sound, it's just that the means are insane.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>if we nuke the world the masses will take over
No? >you can't fault his goal
Yeah I can, the idea of nuking the world to obliterate capitalism is something any thinking person would fault. Since you aren't you clearly don't but oh well.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Putting words in his mouth >Doesn't understand the difference between means and goals
lmao, fucking retard
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Fuck you are truly too stupid to be worth further (you)s. Enjoy this last one
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Cope
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>No?
I didn't say that, I said if we nuke the world global capitalism ends. Which is trivially true and if you disagree, you must have religious zeal.
>you can't fault his goal
I made no value judgment about his goals, I only judged his means to be feasible.
>the idea of nuking the world to obliterate capitalism is something any thinking person would fault
But the question is whether it would work, not whether it is good or bad.
>but you can hardly disagree with the consequences of nuking society back to the stone age, with regards to global capitalism
Globalization infrastructure being gone wouldn't change how economics works, commie homosexual.
If people survived the nuclear holocaust and the planet was still inhabitable, people would just rebuild and eventually get back to modern technological sophistication and nowhere along that chain of events would the labor "theory" of value suddenly become accurate.
>Globalization infrastructure being gone wouldn't change how economics works, commie homosexual.
I think the economic realitiess would change quite drastically if society was annhilated, but maybe I'm not a true believer.
Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments and it was invented in the 19th century, there is nothing fundamental about it existing. Economics work even if they are not capitalism, a notable example would French mercantilist economics from the 17th century. It's a system very distinct from the way capitalism functions.
>nowhere along that chain of events would the labor "theory" of value suddenly become accurate.
Yeah, but nobody is saying that. Posadas is saying if you nuke the world back into the stone age people will live their lives more communally and less alienated from their labor, which is entirely true.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments and it was invented in the 19th century, there is nothing fundamental about it existing
Shut the fuck up communist. Your bullshit is empirically wrong. Historical materialism is bullshit. Labor theory of value is bullshit. You spread this bullshit to people who don't know any better because First Frame persuasion is psychologically effective even if it's preaching bullshit.
>muh alienated labor
have a nice day. Labor becomes more efficient with technology so people spend less time laboring and more time on leisure. Marx was trying to pander to the literal Luddites at the time because they were butthurt about factories making things cheaper and easier for everyone with the strength of character to work for a living instead of leeching off their aristocratic wife and friend.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Shut the fuck up communist. Your bullshit is empirically wrong. Historical materialism is bullshit. Labor theory of value is bullshit. You spread this bullshit to people who don't know any better because First Frame persuasion is psychologically effective even if it's preaching bullshit.
We can talk if you can refute my counterexample, explain how the economic realities of French mercantilism, or Colbertism, under Luis XIV are comparable to capitalism in the mid-18th century.
You'll find some key differences, especially in the way taxation functions under Colbertism and the way in impacts the economy from the bottom to the very top. Of course, mercantilism was incredibly successful, but it was also absolutely non-capitalist.
>Labor becomes more efficient with technology so people spend less time laboring and more time on leisure
And yet, this isn't what is happening at all.
As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity.
This has nothing to do with pandering to Luddites. It's just simple observations.
Regardless, I am not here to talk to you about the validity of certain ideas of a frankly very boring and often wrong 19th century economist. And you need to divorce Marx, the economist from Marx, the political pundit. They are two very different people.
What I really want to talk about is nuking every major population center.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>explain how the economic realities of French mercantilism, or Colbertism, under Luis XIV are comparable to capitalism in the mid-18th century
The feudal contract that European monarchy was based on in the age of absolutism was explicitly a property contract. LOUIS owned the crown, the dukes owned land at his leisure, and the serfs paid their rent via labor and could in fact accrue some currency accumulation themselves. The same economic practices attributed to capitalism are observable in any economy. Even in the commie shithole USSR people would hoard food stamps and popular goods like cigarettes.
>And yet, this isn't what is happening at all >capitalist countries have businesses openly experimenting with 4 day workweeks >commute time evaporates from WfH >meanwhile shitty commie countries forced people to mine at gunpoint to try and keep up with the capitalist countries shitting down their throat
>They are two very different people.
No. And he's wrong on literally fucking everything which is why Vladimir Lenin basically had to rewrite Marxism in his own image to try and make its bullshit conform to reality
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The feudal contract that European monarchy was based on in the age of absolutism was explicitly a property contract.
And yet, you miss the crucial point. There is no way to trade that property, it is given to you by God. Only God can assign and revoke these property rights. And by extension the crown, but the crown is still subject to the rest of the nobility and can be deposed if necessary.
And again, Capitalism is a word that means something specific. It does not refer to "people owning things". It refers to a specific mode of ownership with a specific goal in mind. After all, it's capitalism, not "ownerism".
>capitalist countries have businesses openly experimenting with 4 day workweeks
Which kinds of businesses? And how long did that take? How many improvements in productivity without improvements in compensation happened in the meantime?
>No. And he's wrong on literally fucking everything which is why Vladimir Lenin basically had to rewrite Marxism in his own image to try and make its bullshit conform to reality
Then I recommend you go read Kapital.
See you in 6 months.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>There is no way to trade that property
Yes there fucking is, retard. Feudal lords sold their property all the fucking time. The Hapsburgs and Hohenzollerns both started in Switzerland and ended up in Austria and Prussia. Wars within the same religious culture for 1000 years were all property contract disputes.
>by God
Just a rationalization by monarchs coping with the fact traders had accrued enough wealth to rival them and impose more liberal policies through influence.
>And again, Capitalism is a word that means something specific. It does not refer to "people owning things"
Fucking READ nagger.
>How many improvements in productivity without improvements in compensation happened in the meantime?
How many improvements in productivity can you fucking name that are solely from labor? Or from labor at all? Labor doesn't improve its own productivity, retard. It improves aggregate productivity in the form of GDP. Technology improves productivity and decreases labor demand.
Of course communists don't know basic fucking C+I+G+NX economics.
>Then I recommend you go read Kapital
I've read more academic literature in the past year than a communist homosexual like you has in a lifetime. I'm not reading any more of Marx's bullshit because he's fucking wrong. I'm not reading Geocentric Astronomics either.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I've read more academic literature in the past year than a communist homosexual like you has in a lifetime.
Clearly not of the historical variety.
I also think it's interesting how obsessive you are with assigning beliefs to someone who just earlier said that Posadas' idea of cleaning the world in nuclear hellfire might be a good way to get rid of capitalism.
You should study more, especially when it comes to people skills or you might end up as an analyst slave. We wouldn't want that, would we?
Also, it's never a good thing to be a true believer.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Clearly not of the historical variety
More like not of the historical materialist variety because I'm not a socioeconomic creationist pseudointellectual pretending to be insightful by memorizing my cringe commie Bible instead of reading something empirical.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
When have I used historical materialism, can you point to it, autismfriend?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>When have I used historical materialism
>Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments and it was invented in the 19th century, there is nothing fundamental about it existing >if you nuke the world back into the stone age people will live their lives more communally and less alienated from their labor, which is entirely true. >As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments and it was invented in the 19th century, there is nothing fundamental about it existing
I'm noticing a pattern, you are having trouble distinguishing two terms that use the same word, but mean different things in context. The way the word capitalism is used in the economic, academic sense is distinct from the miquetoast ideological way.
I will reiterate what I said multiple times, capitalism has a specific meaning and it refer to one specific economic system. It is not value judgment. It simply refers to a system that exists. Try to not get emotional when you hear "Capitalism", it makes it very difficult to communicate.
>if you nuke the world back into the stone age people will live their lives more communally and less alienated from their labor, which is entirely true.
Which is not historical materialism, if you work directly to not die, you are lot more invested in and closer to the work you do. Would you really disagree with that?
>As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity.
The productivity-pay gap is well-documented.
All I am saying are trivially true things and you're throwing fits. Why? Why assign fantasy labels to me in your head, why not just read what I write and respond to that?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Are you so fucking stupid you don't even know what historical materialism is? It literally has a Wikipedia article you could look at if you're so disingenuous you can't stand being pointed out as full of shit.
Attributing every single fucking development in human society to Marxist class conflict as expressed through technological development is historical materialism. If you're so fucking out to lunch that you don't even know the name of the stupid bullshit you're peddling that doesn't account for the concepts of altruism, consent, or non-accumulation motivation for policy and individual behavior, your pseudointellectual bullshit is even more pathetic.
The Marxist definitions and presuppositions in everything you've said thus far are manipulative and degenerative tactics designed to insulate the incorrect ontological framework of Marxism from criticism. Profit and self-interest motivation expressed through consensual exchange facilitated by fungible and liquid currencies are capitalist exchanges by nature regardless of whether it's Crassus or Elon Musk doing them, limiting the definitional scope of capitalism and pretending that history is a clear line going from one system to another is a Marxist and fundamentally incorrect assumption based on any circumspect and empirically-rooted study of history, economics or other social sciences.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Where am I attributing things to class conflict exactly?
Are you just following a script?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Where am I attributing things to class conflict exactly?
>Which kinds of businesses? And how long did that take? How many improvements in productivity without improvements in compensation happened in the meantime? >Then I recommend you go read Kapital. >As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity. >capitalism economics are only one possible economic system and historically, there were many economic systems that were not capitalist. I will reiterate, capitalism is a consequence of the consolidation of financial power that happened with the industrial revolution
have a nice day, question-begging Soviet propaganda-larping undergraduate homosexual.
And yet, as far as we know, historically, people lived in communal villages for thousands of years.
While it might lose with time, on a reasonably short thousand year timescale, nuclear annihilation would still result in the desired result.
I agree if you totally fucking change all the frames and scope conditions and realities of what you're talking about you can jerk off fairy dust onto a page and fabricate a reality that doesn't exist as a nonsequitur based on just defending your own bullshit ontology
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
kinds of businesses? And how long did that take? How many improvements in productivity without improvements in compensation happened in the meantime?
None of this is class conflict, it's just the productivity pay gap again.
>Then I recommend you go read Kapital.
How is telling you to read a boring economics book attributing things to class conflict?
>As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity.
Observing the productivity pay gap, has little to do with class conflict.
>capitalism economics are only one possible economic system and historically, there were many economic systems that were not capitalist. I will reiterate, capitalism is a consequence of the consolidation of financial power that happened with the industrial revolution
How does saying "capitalism was invented alongside industrialization" relate to class conflict, can you explain?
>have a nice day, question-begging Soviet propaganda-larping undergraduate homosexual.
You're not arguing with me, you are arguing with a fantasy that exists inside your head.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
The "muh productivity gap" shit is class conflict Marxist bullshit because it presupposes the labor theory of value that any kind of growth in productivity has to be driven by labor when it isn't true. Nothing is stolen from someone if their employer's supply chain becomes more efficient thanks to broadband internet and that results in less waste and more profit.
The communist presuppositions are baked into LITERALLY every argument or comment you've made so far whether about the original analogy to the game or the theory discussions that ensued.
Capitalism being another link in the linear chain of history is another Marxist presupposition.
I don't give a fuck about your childish attempts at Soviet sophistry I've read more of your shitty literature than you have on top of everything else. The only way you can declare a hollow victory in your mind as a coping mechanism is if you falseflag people into thinking anyone agrees with your bullshit, or you get the last word in before the thread dies
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>thanks to broadband internet
Broadband internet, in the 80s?
Come up with a better explanation, please.
Make an effort, please.
>Capitalism being another link in the linear chain of history is another Marxist presupposition.
But I am nowhere asserting that there is a linear progression to history. I am asserting that means are required to reach certain systems. This is a trivial statement, within any frame of reference and something you can hardly find fault with.
After all, you can hardly figure out how to build a gun without knowing what gunpowder is.
>I don't give a fuck about your childish attempts at Soviet sophistry I've read more of your shitty literature than you have on top of everything else. The only way you can declare a hollow victory in your mind as a coping mechanism is if you falseflag people into thinking anyone agrees with your bullshit, or you get the last word in before the thread dies
Again, you are arguing with a fantasy. I'd help you a lot if you read my replies and not just made up things.
Maybe read back on what you are actually arguing about. I recommend taking a step back at this point.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Broadband internet, in the 80s? >Come up with a better explanation, please. >Make an effort, please.
Home computing
Internet proliferation
Other comtech like pagers
Higher efficiency fuels, polymers and alloys
More literacy and health all over the world
Lower Reaganomics corporate taxation levels leading to more investment
Nice fucking deliberate ignorance ploy, homosexual.
>But I am nowhere asserting that there is a linear progression to history
The retarded statement that capitalism only started existing in a specific time even when any possible component of capitalism you could possibly point to de facto or even de jure existed already in other places at other times at other development levels highlights the fallacious reasoning behind everything you're saying
Society does not develop in the same way that a product chain like your stupid gun analogy presupposes. And the gun analogy doesn't even work because you don't need gunpowder specifically to make a gun unless you fuck with the definition of gunpowder to either be a highly specific chemical or a general concept depending on what kind of rhetorical argument you want to slither into. But hopefully the gun analogy does mean you have one in your mouth
>Again, you are arguing with a fantasy. I'd help you a lot if you read my replies and not just made up things.
Pure fucking cope you keep question begging for citations and I give them to you knowing full well you're going to try and sophistry your way out of all the holes you're digging instead of putting holes in your skull like you should
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Home computing >Internet proliferation >Other comtech like pagers >Higher efficiency fuels, polymers and alloys >More literacy and health all over the world >Lower Reaganomics corporate taxation levels leading to more investment
None of these really explain the stagnation in wage growth from the 80s onwards.
Surely, as people are able to provide more value to your company you'd pay them more? That's how wages generally work.
>any possible component of capitalism you could possibly point to de facto or even de jure existed already in other places at other times
Tell me more about large-scale factories, especially with regards to mass production of intermediate goods.
>Society does not develop in the same way that a product chain like your stupid gun analogy presupposes.
But we are not talking about a "product chain", this would imply logistics and such. Technology is distinct. The question is about the first gun, no the second or third or 5000th. Just the first one is enough.
Are you projecting? Could it be that you are the undergrad here? The way you look at things and centralize them around the terminology you have been taught reeks of undergraduate education.
>And the gun analogy doesn't even work because you don't need gunpowder specifically to make a gun unless you fuck with the definition of gunpowder to either be a highly specific chemical or a general concept depending on what kind of rhetorical argument you want to slither into.
I don't care, either works in my example.
You still can't conceptualize a gun if you don't know gunpowder exists.
>you keep question begging for citations
But I am not.
>I give them to you
And you're not giving them to me.
>But hopefully the gun analogy does mean you have one in your mouth
Why are you so mad about losing a meaningless online argument?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>None of these really explain the stagnation in wage growth from the 80s onwards. >Surely, as people are able to provide more value to your company you'd pay them more? That's how wages generally work.
You're literally fucking ignoring shit I said at this point to keep trying to declare victory.
Fuck your labor theory of value and have a nice day communist homosexual.
Justify why you should get a wage increase when the business profitability increase had nothing to do with you and everything to do with the improvements in efficiency from technology.
Anyone can read your disingenuous bullshit ITT and see you running in circles since you can't handle being confronted by someone who knows more about this shit than you. It's not in your commie agitprop playbook. You haven't justified a single one of your positive claims and have just ignored every single point you've been BTFO'd on.
Tie the rope and jump you fucking homosexual
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
You'd do better if you addressed what I am saying instead of throwing around buzzwords.
Please address the following sentence: >As a worker provides more value to the company, that worker should to be paid more.
The job market functions based on this idea (warped by supply and demand ofc). Why wouldn't this pattern be reflected in larger-scale trends? Surely, the productivity pay gap should not exist, based on these simple economic principles.
How do you explain this not happening?
I am yet to receive a satisfactory answer.
>the business profitability increase had nothing to do with you and everything to do with the improvements in efficiency from technology.
Surely the worker has some influence on the technology being employed, hence being paid more to perform more (or new) labor, this would generally be something that would affect the average and move it upwards. But this isn't the trend we see. Why?
>Tie the rope and jump you fucking homosexual
Why are you so mad just because you can win this meaningless online argument?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
You are still fucking connecting the profitability growth of the company to the labor because you're a disingenuous communist retard who's pretending this wasn't addressed several times already in direct fucking replies to you so no I'm not linking them again.
>just because you can win this meaningless online argument
Freudian as all hell eh homosexual?
Of course I'm not going to satisfy your stupid homosexual communist criteria because you keep rewriting it and ignoring your own assfuckings repeatedly in the thread. I keep pointing out how fucking retarded you are for the benefit of anyone else who doesn't suck off dead Germans who might have been fucked by the framing effect into believing your bullshit.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>As a worker provides more value to the company, that worker should to be paid more.
"Should" has no meaning.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments
Capitalism is a rhetorical device invented by Marx in his strategy for attaining power over a mostly free nation and to trick midwits into thinking they were smart for apposing free association.
Mostly as a way to continue being a bum.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Do you think that global capitalism would remain after a full-on nuclear exchange?
Yes, because a full-on nuclear exchange is unlikely to severely damage global capital.
Either you're doing counter-force strikes (against military targets to disable their ability to nuke you back, so missile silos and ships and airbases etc) in which case the infrastructure of global capital remains intact or else you're doing counter-value strikes (against population centers) which means your enemy still has the means to strike back and the entire world has a justifiable motive for wiping your country from existence and you lose, and global capital is restored by the security of the victorious military.
Which isn't going to be the one whose nukes don't work.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I don't understand how devastating nukes are and why M.A.D developed
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I don't understand how devastating nukes are and why M.A.D developed
Do you?
The reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were so destructive is because Japanese cities are made of fucking wood and paper, and what do you think a fireball is going to do to that? Realistic simulations of a nuclear exchange in the present estimate maximum casualties of approximately 30 million (long-term) for countervalue strikes in the United States. Counter-force is a tenth of that. This is assuming every single missile China and Russia claims to have not only A.) exists, but B.) works, C.) makes it to each target, and D.) hits each target. Terminator 2 is not a documentary.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
The mechanical realities don't really matter overly much. Substistute nuclear war for whichever calamity you think can feasibly be caused by people.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
I can fault you for sounding like a retard.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>but you can hardly disagree with the consequences of nuking society back to the stone age, with regards to global capitalism
Globalization infrastructure being gone wouldn't change how economics works, commie homosexual.
If people survived the nuclear holocaust and the planet was still inhabitable, people would just rebuild and eventually get back to modern technological sophistication and nowhere along that chain of events would the labor "theory" of value suddenly become accurate.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
forcing society to go back to purely hunter-gatherer WOULD change how economics work, literally by definition
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yeah, I'm sure the communist utopia is just one nuclear apocalypse away
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>literally by definition
No, not by definition.
In the stone age, Grug hunted deer and gave some meat to Grog in exchange for the arrows and knives Grog was making all day. They bartered the same way people do today in the absence of currency. Once a postapocalyptic society got sophisticated enough to have currency, their economics would obey the same laws as ours.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>but you can hardly disagree with the consequences of nuking society back to the stone age, with regards to global capitalism.
Sure, it would become way less global, just like fucking everything, but that would just take us back to bartering, as in, the purest form of capitalism.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>literally by definition
No, not by definition.
In the stone age, Grug hunted deer and gave some meat to Grog in exchange for the arrows and knives Grog was making all day. They bartered the same way people do today in the absence of currency. Once a postapocalyptic society got sophisticated enough to have currency, their economics would obey the same laws as ours.
To function capitalism requires abstract currency, it cannot function under a barter system, because capitalism is not "trade".
Capitalism is not a fundamental aspect of economics, capitalism economics are only one possible economic system and historically, there were many economic systems that were not capitalist. I will reiterate, capitalism is a consequence of the consolidation of financial power that happened with the industrial revolution.
Capitalism is not "when there is trade", it is a very specific thing.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>To function capitalism requires abstract currency
Even by communist homosexuals' definition that's not true
Accumulation is possible with any fungible, liquid commodity that doesn't degrade which is why the first proto-currencies were things like seashells.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yes, but now address the rest. You need a currency and you need the industrial means to make use of it on a large scale. If all you can really do with it is pay mercenaries, the best you can hope for is something akin to Feudalism.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>You need a currency
I literally just fucking told you you don't NEED a currency for capitalist (aka empirically correct) economic processes to play out. You need currency to smooth the process out and make exchanges more valuable and frequent but not to make accumulation and exchange possible.
>the best you can hope for is something akin to Feudalism
Feudalism is just a policy solution to rent and a division of labor based on the degrading infrastructure of the late Roman Empire. Everyone owed rent to the highest authority (the Pope, the Emperor, whoever in the specific region) and paid the rent to them with middlemen like dukes and sheriffs taking cuts along the chain.
It was still profit motivated, it was still based on exchange and ownership of property.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I literally just fucking told you you don't NEED a currency for capitalist (aka empirically correct) economic processes to play out.
But you just said you need a an abstract currency: >any fungible, liquid commodity that doesn't degrade which is why the first proto-currencies were things like seashells.
Why suddenly change your mind? What's up with that?
>It was still profit motivated, it was still based on exchange and ownership of property.
Then why did feudalist states look nothing like capitalist ones?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Seashells aren't a fucking abstract currency, retard. Neither are gold coins. Seashells had value to cavemen. It stored that value in a way that didn't rot unlike say fruit. Gold has similar value along with more industrial value. A fiat currency is "abstract"
>Then why did feudalist states look nothing like capitalist ones?
They fucking did you retard they were just technologically less sophisticated because education and physical infrastructure had collapsed 300 years prior.
There were literally commodity traders all over the world at the time making money in the form of fucking cash. Have you ever heard of the fucking Silk Road? Or do you just jerk off to the same 5 commie fanfiction books over and over?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Seashells aren't a fucking abstract currency, retard. Neither are gold coins. Seashells had value to cavemen. It stored that value in a way that didn't rot unlike say fruit. Gold has similar value along with more industrial value. A fiat currency is "abstract"
Sure, but once we start issuing seashell certificates and debt, it get abstract real quick. And that's not a high level of abstraction.
>They fucking did you retard they were just technologically less sophisticated because education and physical infrastructure had collapsed 300 years prior.
But they did not.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>But they did not >the roman highways that eroded and academies that closed as deurbanization took over didn't degrade physical and educational infrastructure
>seashell certificates
AKA a currency backed by the seashell commodity
>debt
A deferred sum of seashells agreed upon to be delivered in the future.
A fiat currency that inverts the dynamic by deriving value from existing value is an abstract currency.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
But don't you see that seashell certificates and debt mean fractional reserve banking is suddenly viable?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
If YOU want to abstract it that far, but in practical terms a pseudo-currency is not going to be abstracted that far in lieu of just making an actual currency out of the certificates, which would facilitate money market shit insofar as the state organizing the seashell certificate currency allowed it.
A state could insist on nothing but coinage and direct deferred payment debt as a matter of policy that would basically remove any practical abstraction from the economy.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
But if you nuke everything, you won't really find "states", will you?
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Not while the fires are literally still burning but in the aftermath, yes you would.
If the planet doesn't go extinct and humans or some other new superspecies repopulate, unless that superspecies isn't social in which case the likelihood of them becoming tool-users or traders goes way down, the laws of economics and social organization would reemerge as the population grew and demand for more efficient exploitation of resources also grew
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
We can always argue about timescales and such.
But if you guide the rebuilding effort in the right way, states are avoidable and communal power structures are entirely feasible. At least that's what Posadas thought.
But Posadas was also insane.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>communal power structures are entirely feasible
Not when stress tested by meritocratic, competitive, hierarchical systems emerging parallel and competing for scarce resources.
God forbid I paint with a slightly broad brush for a moment when talking to a communist that will gladly vomit red all over everything but throw a tantrum whenever anyone in opposition does a little generalizing, but even if in isolated instances you can see a successful communal society outcompeting a more hierarchical one, the Columbian Exchange highlights how there's always a bigger fish and Darwinian forces will always gravitate towards an adaptive, dynamic system EVENTUALLY outcompeting a more sedentary collaborative one.
It's no coincidence that the President of the United States has gotten more powerful as the US has also gotten more powerful
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
And yet, as far as we know, historically, people lived in communal villages for thousands of years.
While it might lose with time, on a reasonably short thousand year timescale, nuclear annihilation would still result in the desired result.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
why would that result be desirable?
these small communal villages were still filled with pettiness violence and superstition, people died from preventable diseases and starvation, and their quality of life was generally far lower. do you somehow think you'd be happier living in a place like that? because if you wanna go be a turnip farmer in some poor village there's still plenty of places like that in the world that you can move to.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
>why would that result be desirable?
You are forgetting the framing of the conversation, the desired result is the destruction of global capitalism (as envisioned by a madman). And just in case you are forgetting, Posadas is only really interesting, people here are obsessed with displaying their politics, so they'll argue it relentlessly.
The only reason I ever brought him up was to parallel Kreia and her goals.
In any sense, yes this is accomplishing the desired result.
Whether the result is good or bad, that's not the subject of a discussion about the merits of a nuclear holocaust in relation to the continued existence of capitalism.
Kreia acts like a rule of two sith, gaslighting and lying to everybody, yet achieves jackshit. So shit of a sith lord that Baras stole and imprisoned her spirit, someone that outsmarted that Sith Emperor, unlike Revan.
>successfully wipes out the Sith AND the Jedi
the kotor(s) sith were not the true Sith.
>sets up her apprentice to create the continuation
I'm guessing you meant the continuation of the Jedi order. Kinda, there were uncover Sith that were intentionally sealing up the sith tombs (less resistance to the sith emperor) and helping the puppets governments along with introducing form 7 and other dark side abilities in order to lure in Jedi to the dark side.
ok, how about "SWTOR's story wasn't even a concept when KOTOR2 was made and thus cannot and should not even be considered when discussing either KOTOR"
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
it doesn't matter what the people making it had in mind
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
ok, how about "SWTOR's story wasn't even a concept when KOTOR2 was made and thus cannot and should not even be considered when discussing either KOTOR"
>swtor unlike kotor, featured Nomi Sunrider of the Tales of the Jedi comics, and her Holocron was used by Leia in Dark Empire. She also meant a descendent of Sunrider. >in SWTOR you fight Jakir Halcyon, the ancestor of Nejaa Halcyon (appeared in the Jedi Trial novel) and Corran Horn of the X Wings Books
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
canon is a social construct. when the author, writer, game dev, artist, and or greedy amoral execs that control a series violate it, they no longer have a say in what's canon. that's how it's always been and always will be, plebs need not apply
>Was Kreia based?
No, she is just a mouthpiece for one of the writers who thinks that Star Wars is childish to begin with. Kreia is their attempt at making it more "mature", but it just comes off as someone who is bitter that people prefer space wizards to tolkein-shit.
>Kreia says she hates the Force because it dooms the galaxy to suffer through multiple wars in the name of balance >years after KotOR2, the sequel trilogy proves her right when it makes a point that the Force will auto-balance the light and dark side teams whenever they aren't at the same level of power
>years after KotOR2, the sequel trilogy proves her right when it makes a point that the Force will auto-balance the light and dark side teams whenever they aren't at the same level of power
This is just disneyfags not understanding what it means for the Force to be balanced. The dark side is like a tumor, the Force is balanced when it doesn't exist. The idea that you need an equal amount of evil and good is fucking retarded and explicitly against what George stated.
both sides are fucking the same and does roughly the same shit, it only becomes an imbalance when people starts abusing it, something that is easier to do with the "dark side" since its mostly powered by emotions instead of autistic training
I still stand on 'Things are in balance when you can handle both sides like an adult'
And no, I don't care what George says given he was an emotionally stunted manlet. There's no moral failing in being afraid, not when righteous anger is still a type of anger, and a difference between just hatred of evil and unchanneled, directionless rage at reality.
His philosophy is fundamentally lacking and squaring the circle will never be possible as long as people stick to 'The dark side is when I feel the badwrong feelings and that has to be hacked out of me with a scalpel.'
Jedi Survivor kinda touched on themes like that. I dunno how to spoil text but I'd pirate the game if that kinda theme in star wars interests you and you can stomach somewhat bloated open world design.
It's more of a misunderstanding of the idea, people seem to assume the dark side doesn't do these things as well. But it does, it's not the force trying to bring balance to light and dark, the struggle is that whenever the dark side gets suppressed the jedi get compliant and allow it to grow mistakenly thinking it was removed.
I really dislike the tendency in Star Wars to just have one view be absolutely and objectively correct, rather than giving the viewer lots of different interpretations of the universe and letting them figure it out on their own.
It shouldn't be blindingly obvious which side is the correct one about the force.
I think balance in the force actually means there are no users, period. It used Anakin to kill all of the Jedi, then kill the last remaining Sith before dying himself, leaving one force user left that isn't indoctrinated into either belief system, the perfect neutral force user.
George is a total moron and his vision of the force is total horseshit. See Midicholorium. That was his idea from the start but it got shot down by smarter people during the original trilogy. The prequel is what you get when George has full creative control.
>and explicitly against what George stated.
George also stated that Force is closer to Eastern Nirvana and Ying Yang. Which makes Dark Side part of the balance.
It's none blame but George polluting creativity with protestant objectivism (cannot call is philosophy)
I accidentally stumpled upon a big buff in that game when I denied the wookie buff because the game was already easy enough as it was. Kreia complimented me something about relying on your own strength. In the end, ironically making the game even easier
i love kotor 2 but you can trace all the retarded grey morality in disney star wars from it so in that, it has done more damage to star wars than anyone could possibly imagine
Who's to blame for a bad thing: the inventor of the bad thing, or the company that copies the bad thing?
the only reason she always turns on you is rushed development.
weird how Avellone games always get this defense but when you bring up dogshit like Aliens Colonial Marines or Bioshock Infinite it's suddenly totally different and not at all the same
Grey morality isn't necessarily a bad thing, all we can say for sure is that Disney cocked it up.
Because the end product is still somewhat enjoyable, which they aren't. It goes from "what fucking retards" to " fuck, it could've been even better given more time".
That's because those games are garbage from start to end.
Unfinished games that have great moments and show promise will always be judged less harshly.
>the inventor of the bad thing, or the company that copies the bad thing?
One who copies bad thing commits more evil, because they already have seen that bad thing is bad, but still do it again. Inventor does not know (may not know) at time of inventing that thing they invent is bad, but copycat absolutely does.
That is, if we consider thing in question objectively, factually bad. And if it's not, then you should stop talking, your breath stinks of mouse semen.
Kreia is very based. She's one of the more talented Sith Lords for sure. Almost two decades on there's still people who think she has any kind of good intention or genuinely cared for you. In every single interaction from the beginning of the game till the very end, she is manipulating you. She's a Sith Lord.
Yeah, the Exile is someone Kreia carefully cultivated from when they first met and whether you become the next Sith Lord or choose to become a better Jedi than the prior masters, she's internally proud of you regardless for becoming something more than what the Force would consign you to. She's fine with her plan failing so long as you carry her lessons with you and don't slip into the trappings of blind emotion or overzealous justice that the Sith and Jedi commonly fall into.
I'm pretty sure you have to kill the Masters if you're dark side, and that's what triggers the "you have failed me, completely and utterly" speech. I might try to do a dark side/spare Masters run one of these days
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
Oh, that's what it was. I remember killing off the masters on a Light Side run because I wanted independence for Onderon and she still said she cared about the Exile when prompted to during the finale.
If that's the case, then the positive dialogue for sparing the masters should still trigger even when you've got high Dark Side alignment.
Kreia loves you and cares deeply for you. Because she knows that you're the only who understands, because you are free to act without interference from the force. The Exile is able to wield the force as a tool, without being influenced in turn.
Apathy is death.
Wrong, she's an evil cunt. She's trying to turn you into someone desperate for her approval so she can manipulate you easier, she needs you to not be a puppet to the Jedi or to your own desires so you can be a puppet for her instead. She's using you. She doesn't love you, she loves what she can use you to do, she doesn't care about you, she cares about how she can use you. She's fantastically written because people fall for it all these years later. She's the Sith Lord of lies and betrayal. Never forget that.
she literally doesn't want you to be a puppet for anyone, including her. She's training you to be something better than the Sith/Jedi dichotomy. The "kill the Force" plot is an elaborate suicide attempt because she hates that she's dependent on the Force.
Kreia loves you and cares deeply for you. Because she knows that you're the only who understands, because you are free to act without interference from the force. The Exile is able to wield the force as a tool, without being influenced in turn.
Kreia is what happens when you take the Sith Code that KOTOR1 introduced and made a character that actually tries to fulfill it, instead of being a cackling imbecilic cartoon villain like most Sith.
>Company releases an unfinished game full of bugs today >People consider it a bad game >Company released an unfinished and buggy game yesterday >It is praised as the best game that has ever appeared on the face of the earth
Back in the day if you were rushing a game you still had to "complete" it like slapping a conclusion paragraph onto a school essay 4 pages short of the criteria.
Now people would shit out a game with no conclusion paragraph in the wrong font with spelling and grammar mistakes everywhere, still 4 pages short and written partially in Wingdings
Kotor 1 is a good played-straight RPG approach to star wars. It's a serviceable game with a solid plot and progression, if predictable.
Kotor 2, while a little rough around the edges, has far better writing and more or less the same kind of gameplay.
>the characters are better
Definitely not >the story is better
Eh, Kotor 1 is very straight forward and unimaginative, but this is more subjective. >the light and sith choices are good.
And this just shows you have not even played these games, unless it was 20 years ago. There's a reason one of the more popular mods for Kotor 1 is a dialogue one, that fixes the shitty dark side choices.
>shitty dark side choices >'MOOOOOOOM!!! The video game is letting me play as Dick Dastardly instead of stirnerpilled gray moral relativist again!!!!!'
the problem isn't that you have that option, it's that you don't have ANY other dark side options, and it makes the characters in your party look like morons for staying with you every time you do. this shit applies to other games too. it's always paragon or evil bastard with no in between.
>1 is more true to star wars
1 is only more true to Star Wars in the lamest way. The story beats of Kotor 1 are literally the same beats as the trilogy movies (you're a nobody, you become a Jedi, there's a twist that shatters your perception of self, and you fight on a space station at the end for the fate of the galaxy, and it ends with being given a medal like the original movie), with some background philosophy being introduced in the prequel movies but that wasn't the central core. 2 is more about the philosophy and is therefore more true to Star Wars in a way that people didn't realize.
Also >characters are better
No. Only Jolee and Carth are good. Imagine saying Juhani or T3 are good. Light and Sith choices are bad because none of your choices matter except joining or not Bastila at the end. And it's clear that light side route is the only one they planned because there's no reason for Dark Side route to fight on the Star Forge.
KOTOR 2 was filled with shitty characters and boring scenarios. Obshitian fucked up everything good that BioWare had cultivated with the first game.
unsurprisingly, they fucked up THE EXACT SAME WAY with Memeout: nuVegass years later so NPCs could continue meming about these awful gayms.
The force is cool when you actually listen to what they say it is in the movies: an energy force which is an amalgam of all life, it has a nearly indecipherable will as it is the will of all living things which drives it. It transcends time so those who are sensitive to it could peer into the mess of billions of minds just to get a hint at what is to come. The idea that the light and dark are balanced when equal is retarded and goes against the very movies. The force desires the light, good. The majority which fuel it want peace, want serenity. The sith, the dark side, is a cancer which sucks away at this energy to fuel their power rather than live in line with it. It is an unknowable god-like entity, and EU fags never understood that. To them its >DUDE BALANCE LIKE MY EPIC EASTERN RELIGIONS >DUDE JUST FOLLOW SOME GOOD GUY RULES AND BAD GUY RULES AND YOU GET BOTH POWERS
It's inherently cringe, no matter how hard they try to act like they understand the occultism behind it
You got filtered. >DUDE JUST FOLLOW SOME GOOD GUY RULES AND BAD GUY RULES AND YOU GET BOTH POWERS
Kotor 2 never argues for this mentality, in fact, it argues against this cringe. >DUDE BALANCE LIKE MY EPIC EASTERN RELIGIONS
Balance is not defined in Kotor 2 to be a ying yang situation. You got filtered so hard, you feel the need to invent these scenarios.
Reminder that Yoda gave Luke advice that would have doomed the whole galaxy had he tried to follow it (telling him to kill his father) AND presided over the events that led to the fall of the Jedi Order and ascension of the Sith into galactic power they hadn't had for thousands of years.
He was a good teacher and knew shit but he's not an authoritative source on the nature of reality.
>literally can't imagine a non-deistic creation origin
amerimutt brainrot
You're retarded in multiple ways. Suffice it to say that the Force being a stand-in for God is about as explicit as subtext can be. It is shown to be intelligent, purposeful, and personally involved in the world. Any other explanation would just be God by another name.
>Force being a stand-in for God is about as explicit as subtext can be. It is shown to be intelligent, purposeful, and personally involved in the world
another case of severe amerimutt brainrot
That literally came out of George Lucas' mouth in an interview. Considering that he borrowed heavily from established anthropology in which deistic creation is present in virtually every culture you are saying that because you personally hate it and nothing more.
>Reminder that Yoda gave Luke advice that would have doomed the whole galaxy had he tried to follow it (telling him to kill his father)
what the fuck
no killing Vader would have been a good thing. even risking Luke turning is still worth trying to remove Vader/Palpy.
It wasn't necessary and it shows that Yoda wasn't perfectly in tune with the Force. He had been given prophecy but didn't trust it, and would have allowed the continued survival of the Sith had his advice been followed.
>Reminder that Yoda gave Luke advice that would have doomed the whole galaxy had he tried to follow it (telling him to kill his father)
No he didn't. He said Luke had to CONFRONT Vader because Luke HAD to face temptation from the Dark Side and not succumb in order to finally embody the ways of the Jedi.
I heard more about Kreia's philosophy on the internet that from what she actually says in the game. I don't remember her saying anything on par with OP's pic. Am I missing something?
From what I've seen, Kreia looks like a Bene Gesserit from Dune copy pasted into a Jedi Role without actually thinking about how different the two are.
not really. The Bene Gesserit are all about behind-the-scenes manipulation to control humanity. Kreia, depending on your interpretation, either wants to burn down everything to free the galaxy from the shackles of the Force, or destroy the Jedi and the Sith so her apprentice can create a new Order from the ashes based on her teachings of freedom from control.
>Why wasn't Mission Vao a romance option?
They had to fight to the bitter end to make her look attractive at all. Her being a romance option would have been a step too far.
Check in the archive for kotor threads, there is this picture with dev note which shows two versions of Mission's face and why they decided to make her more beautiful
>DUDE good and evil are just different sides of the coin that is BALANCE so if you kill all the psychotic murdering tyrants more will just APPEAR because that's what BALANCE means
completely retarded and non-canon.
>evil Force users in KotOR2 >great philosopher-kings (and queens) who rule with iron fist and seek to uncover the secrets of the cosmos and prove the superiority of their philosophy >evil Force users in other media >grrr I’m angry and bad
philosopher-kings (and queens) who rule with iron fist and seek to uncover the secrets of the cosmos and prove the superiority of their philosophy
Palpatine is exactly this though.
I like Palpatine, but I really dislike the way he is depicted as infallible by so much of the secondary media and fans. He lost to Mace Windu, he attempted to torture Luke to death while exposing himself to Vader. He isn't perfect.
Both are acceptable philosophies if people commit to them instead of taking shortcuts. Bad Sith are cackling cartoon villains who think moar powah makes them better, but bad Jedi are people who try to suppress their feelings and grow detached from reality instead of working through their emotions normally. Bad Sith let the Force chain them as a crutch, bad Jedi bottle the chaos instead of resolving it.
The Jedi are correct by being adherent to how the Force demands, but the Sith are more humane yet are self-destructive. >the Force sets you free while chaining you to the desire for more power
It's always funny.
Considering most characters who represent 'goodness' actually follow the right, I'd say the Sith code is closer to being correct (but still wrong because being a edgelord tru-libertarian isn't the only way to "freedom")
>Considering most characters who represent 'goodness' actually follow the right
dont actually*
Seriously, who among the Jedi other than them in their most corruptable periods actually believes in 'no emotion'?
The importance placed in morality and decision-making is based in emotion. You can't be attached to an ideal like peace without some form of attachment.
If you're making purely non-emotional decisions, what are they in service of? You could say a greater good, but what other than one's own personal, emotional love for good and hate for evil can define what the greater good even is?
So not only are emotions important in correct decision-making, I'd even say they're a more important concept than peace. For what they're going for a better philosophy would be >there is no instability, there is only composure
No she's deliberately written to be wrong and if you have an IQ of over 95 you can see you verbally destroy her in the discussions on the ship. This is reflected in the game by giving you extra power for being hardline Jedi or Sith rather than some middling contrarian.
The problem is that those godlike powers literally enforce it. You're emotions have reflections and reactions and it will effect you and the other around you. It's not even a difference of good vs evil it's a difference of balance. Doing good things in an unbalanced way will have reactive effects and eventually those ideals will become corrupted. And if you take the assumption that you have the power thus decide what is right than you already fell.
The problem with KOTOR2 feels like whatever they were trying to go with wasn't allowed by Lucas Arts.
I always got the impression the big issue with the KOTOR series is that a lot of people think the Jedi are wrong to not be involved int he mandalorian wars. Then the jedi fucking say this shit: >actually following the jedi orders would have made things better!
???? okay? HOW? No one ever says how or explain the jedi's plan you're just meant to assume they were right. Which is why KOTOR2 almost feels like a direct criticism of the first game... until a certain point when it just has to collapse back into the the universe's rigid philosophy. It was entirely limited by the IP itself.
The force is the same in all conceptions, Kreia did not say anything that anyone keen didn't notice, and her own interpretation is ultimately flawed, and she herself is a sad old woman that was stuck tying up knots of Revan's trailblaze as she walks to her preemptive loss.
And Midichlorians are fine, too.
>But canon was ruined later
the entire reason KOTOR was such a distant prequel is because they didn't want to deal with canon they already considered ruined
Kreia will always be the most based female written. Also, I'm sick and tire of the force, there needs to be a game where you are a regular man that takes down both Jedi and Sith with creative ways. That will never happen since the Star War kids need their baby moralfag stories.
Ew! What the fuck is that. At least she has '80's hair which is honestly nice. I just saw a little bit of gameplay and this shit reeks of Sony-movie games. She never shuts the fuck up, and the game looks linear and easy as hell.
>'the purpose of pedagogy is not to pass on data, but to strengthen individuality' >says guy who will vitriolically disagree with every major line of thought of the time, but has nothing to really contribute to philosophy at large himself
whether you think that's based or cringe really depends on you
Max was based as hell, I remember reading an article on Counter-Currents on how he truly defeated philosophy. Even philosophers of his time were seething at him. Another based one was Ragnar Redbeard.
>people still think kotor 2 is about a grey mortality
You homosexuals so fucking stupid its unbelievable. The game is about how your actions has consequences. Even Kreia wants you to rebuild a new Jedi order without the flaws of the old one
It took me 15 years before I noticed that the other Handmaidens weren't Atris's children. I had always thought 'the' Handmaiden was special because she was the only one that wasn't blood related.
The echani shares the same father and mother other than the handmaiden herself. Her mother is Arren Kae and if she's Kreia then Atris having her children would be... weird
Something about the Exile ans Revan fighting the True Sith (originally being Naga Sadow Sith Empire I think.) And also HK was strap to the back of the Exile too. Either way, it's still gotta be better than the "kotor 3" we got
>Revan knowing about the thot bomb >could've easily lie to Scourge and make Dromund Kass into a waste land like Ruusan >also knew about the Foundry, aka another Star Forge >could've attained unlimited power and immorality from said thot bomb >used said powers to kill the other forms of the Sith Emperor
Kreia also said that ancient sith lords were very powerful and would otk later sith like Sion and Nihilus. Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow could easily destroy life, planets, stars, etc with the force alone.
4 weeks ago
Anonymous
With how powerful both characters are at the ending of their games, I think they can take on the Sith Emperor. I mean Kreia was training the Exile to fight the True Sith
No. An end goal of galaxy wide catastrophic effects that could probably end up maiming or even killing species that depend on the force just for muh freedoms and would just lead to a galaxy that's probably just as conflict prone even without space wizards is not based.
Kreia was based and I thought, for sure, that they were going to steal her schtick for Snoke.
Like I thought the whole idea of the second movie that they were setting up was that he was the last Sith Master and him and Luke, the last Jedi Master, had made a pact of sorts not to make more padawans/initiates and they both broke it in an attempt to stab each other in the back.
>It's the "The Last Jedi"
No, it's Empire for sure of the games.
An unfinished game hyped up massively by its fanbase because the concepts and ideas were top notch at the time for its medium.
It's stupid. There was no reason why Jabba's palace should have been there. Han was trying to avoid him in a new hope, why would he be on the same planet? They should have come up with a different location for the Jabba's Palace act. >And it's the best part of that entire movie.
True though. I can't even remember what happened after then. They escape on the sand skimmer, then there's somehow a lot of fucking around, then it's ewoks and the throne room.
KOTOR 2 was basically Disney’s Star Wars before the buy out. Utter tripe. People who don’t get something as black and white as Star Wars and try to add needless “subversion” to it are retards.
Reminder that if Qui-gon hadn't been killed he would have let Anakin save his mom before she was killed and encouraged him to find a way to save Padme without falling to the dark side.
Obi-wan fucked up and he knew it.
Qui-Gon was also better equipped to be Anakin's father figure than Obi-Wan, who could only ever be an older brother. Leaving the father figure position open to be wormed into by Creamy Sheev.
>find the most powerful force user that's ever lived >try to train him like normal and pretend he's not special >wonder why he becomes a sith mass shooter
i dunno if the pic is accurate, it might be if you take disneywars seriously but i don't remember the game ever implying that the force itself is directly disturbing the balance.
as far as i know the gog version never got the modernization update from aspyr so you'd have to use archive.org to download shit from like 2016 or 2017
All you need with the aspyr version is TSLRCM, widescreen ui stretch fix and may be some high res skybox mods if you want them. I also use ez pazaak mod because I can't be bothered to do it legit for the 23543th time.
MIDICHLORIANS
midichlorians was the most retarded thing george lucas could come with.
and that's saying a lot.
People that think midichlorians removes mysticism from the Force are dumb/speed-readers.
mostly gets it but is missing a key aspect. Midichlorians do not "create" the Force or give host Force powers. They are essentially microscopic communicators with the Force, the more you have the stronger "the voice" of the Force is. It's still an energy field that penetrates and binds all living beings. It is just interacted with subconsciously on a cellular level through the midichondria--I mean the mitochlorians. George created them as a diagetic way of determining Force sensitivity and the notion of certain bloodlines being stronger in the Force was mentioned in the OT so biological means to access The Force existed before the prequels.
>They're dumb speedreaders because of a retcon that came later from the backlash
It's prefectly fine to hate Midichlorians. You have to accept this.
It wasn't a retcon. It was explained exactly as I described in the movie it was introduced. You're just an idiot.
Your explanation makes midichlorians sound even more retarded.
Midichlorians are secretly based because the disappointment and mundane feeling people got from their reveal is accurate to people's stupid religious beliefs being BTFO'd IRL
Finding out your telekinesis is just a product of bacteria in your blood is just like when people IRL found out witchcraft and miracles and other stupid shit were fake and that the real solution to all questions is science
Ebin tipping
Cope harder /misc/ your stupid trad larp is based on goofy bullshit proven wrong a million times
>Finding out your telekinesis is just a product of bacteria in your blood
Midiclorians aren't what generate the force, they're just attracted to entities with an attachment to it. Still stupid.
Why do people say this in complete contravention of Liam Neeson's dialog
Star Wars fans will never let the actual movies get in the way of what they think happened in the movies
I just rewatched it and he clearly states that midichlorians are a parasite within all life that takes control of the host by making them hear voices. giving them powers to do their bidding. pretty sick imo.
So basically like DNA in the real world.
Its more like the Mitochondria, the mitochondrial engine, and probably some quantum jibber jabber atp/blood brain barrier. Explains why the Sith always bask in red light. A funny coincidence with no greater meaning. Though he may not be talking literally either or providing background to some strange theory. I find it hilarious but it kinda destroys some settings in subplots.
Lucas learned about Mitochondria in real life and thought "What if I copied that, but made them magic?"
holy reddittor gtfo
Explain to me how science makes the miracles of life less awe inducing
Because you know lightning doesn't come from God himself doesn't mean you can't get killed by it, or doesn't explain why the rules of reality were formed in such a way to make it possible to happen
The same thing can be said about midiclorians
Science pretend it explains everything about the universe and all its mysteries even though all it does is describing its regularities, nothing else
religion is what pretends it has all the answers, science is just what happens when you ask questions
"i am very intelligent and have many expensive funko pops"
>Finding out your telekinesis is just a product of bacteria in your blood
This isn't really the case though, the force isn't midichlorians they just allow one to better hear it.
>all the butthurt religiontards in the replies
I kneel King...
i'm atheist and i think he sounds like a 12 year old redditor
You type like the living embodiement of that reddit wojak with the "I fucking love science" shirt
>Finding out your telekinesis is just a product of bacteria in your blood is just like when people IRL found out witchcraft and miracles and other stupid shit were fake and that the real solution to all questions is science
/r/Atheism needs their mod back, homosexual.
Well you got all the post 2016 christcucks seething so you did something right
>saying god isn't real now guarantees a dozen replies on Ganker
What caused this?
Psyop around 2016 to corral younger anons into self-defeating "God wins in the end" plan-trusting.
Flat Earth is the next psyop. Pretty soon you'll have to pretend to believe it otherwise you'll get shouted down on Ganker.
>he fell for the flat earth posting
Damn
Ganker is the most contrarian place on the internet, Anons here will do the opposite of whatever is mainstream. It just so happens that being a Christian Fundamentalist and upstanding, responsible citizen is the opposite of mainstream now.
Midichlorians are a good test to see if someone is actually are Star Wars fan or not. If they're offended by Midichlorians, then they aren't. The original trilogy made it extremely clear that the Force was something some people had, and some didn't, and even then in varying strengths. Anybody who thought they could become attuned to the force by training was a retarded secondary who wasn't paying attention to the movies. Midichlorians are merely a way to give a power level mechanic to the force. The only valid criticism of Midichlorians are criticisms of power level mechanics (and most power level issues never really became an issue in George's ST).
anything that gives quantifiable power levels gets a poor response, doesnt even apply to just star wars. its just fucking lame.
>Midichlorians are a good test to see if someone is actually are Star Wars fan or not.
Big words for someone who enjoyed Gendy israeliteovski's cartoon enough to use a still as a reaction image.
>Midichlorians are merely a way to give a power level mechanic to the force
that's why it's bad you fucking retard
and you even KNOW that's why it's bad, but give the most half-assed dismissal of it.
>Master yoda young anakins midichlorian count its OVER 9000
>WHAT?! 9000!?
Star Wars, like Star Trek is 60% shit.
closer to 90% tbh, there's a lot of trash in the EU
>if someone is actually are Star Wars fan or not.
You're pathetic.
Midichlorians have nothing to do with "power level", they literally just serve as an explanation for how the Force interacts with organics and how different characters have more aptitude with the Force than others.
Nothing that happens in the story is determined by how many Midichlorians someone has, if it was Kenobi wouldn't have been able to butcher Anakin.
the text on the left is exactly what happens in the prequels and OG? Anakin was a prophecy to be fulfilled (except its not in the way people thought) and the only one who could raise him to NOT fulfill that prophecy is a jedi who is more morally grey, who winds up getting stabbed in the gut because he let his emotions get the best of him in a fight. Anakin grows up to fulfil that prophecy and murder all the fuckin jedi because he didnt have his morally grey daddy to raise him right.
extremely based.
George has said repeatedly Anakin brings balance to the Force when he kills the Emperor, not when he kills the Jedi
What did it take to get there? The lives of nearly every jedi. If Anakin had his proper dad he woulda been fine and dunked on Dr Palper and there would be no story. all the more reinforcing the idea that the Voice works in mysterious ways.
I genuinely do not care for what George has to say. His opinions are clearly worthless when he refused to go all the way with the prequels.
>refused to go all the way with the prequels
elaborate. give me lore. is this about sith jar jar? sith jar jar is 100% canon.
Idiotic pleb take. Disneywars exists because of you.
As well it is seen in pretty much most of the OT. Many things seem like luck but as Obi-Wan said there is no such thing as luck. Everyone gets put into the position they needed to be in, there are no coincidences the force makes a point to move the pieces into the right spots.
You don't get star wars, and the more time passes the more i feel like nobody gets star wars.
What makes star wars good is pure and simply the aesthetics. George Lucas had a good sense for it despite being a dumbass in many respect, which is why he created something no one else could with simple concepts anyone else could use.
Of course, Kotor does have the merit of taking that and building some interesting space fantasy beyond the aesthetics. But shit like the jedi or sith philosophies didn't even exist, and guess what they weren't *needed*.
Sith wasn't even a word in original star wars was it? It's EU shit
If I recall correctly, in George's notes for A New Hope, Vader was titled as Lord of the Sith, though it didn't make it into the movie itself. So Sith have been in George's mind for the mirror of the Jedi from the beginning.
People are retarded. They don't give the force, they're a parasite that naturally gravitate towards people who are more attuned to the force. Talent makes others more connected off the bat, but it's anyone's game if they can dedicate themselves enough to learn and practice it. It's like miniature lifeforms feeding off the warm thermal soup beneath the ocean, or small mites living in our hair, on our teeth, in our skin. It's a good test to see if someone is powerful with the force, but it is basically meaningless when it comes to becoming strong in it overall.
The more midiclorians the more force, anakin lost limbs and became less powerful because he had less midiclorians
Anakin always could've grown them back and return to his normal health with dark side methods. His guilt has stopped him each time.
are you talking about that one scene in Shadows of the Empire where he fixes himself with the dark side but loses it because starts feeling happy for like 5 seconds
Yes, I think.
honestly I'm just surprised at myself that I remember so much about that book in such detail, pretty sure the last time I read it was like 20 years ago
nah anakin/vader was too stupid to pull a Darth Plagueis
>The dark side has come before, and it will come again. Do not underestimate its power. That is why I have devoted my life to teaching Jedi Knights, to strengthen the light side against the tide of darkness that is sure to come."
Grey Jedi will never understand Vodo-Siosk Baas teachings, only Luke did.
>anakin/vader was too stupid to pull a Darth Plagueis
Anakin hated himself for murdering his wife. Why would he want to fix himself? The galaxy has nothing he actually wants, until he realizes Padme had given birth to their son.
I actually agree with this.
They were supposed to be just little parasites that feed off of the force but Lucas fucking sucks at explaining everything and just doubled down on it for the next ten years until he sold it.
We have assimilated a lot of viruses into our DNA across the eras. This no different.
To me, the whole "midichlorians" thing merely served to demonstrate their collective hubris. They thought just because they could measure something with their heckin' science that they were the masters of the universe. The jedi assumed that could do no wrong, and that they were masters of the force. The truth, as it turned out, is that they're tiny, insignificant specks in an infinite universe, dabbling in powers far beyond the scope they can truly understand, and they got knocked down a few pegs for it. By episode 4, whatever jedi remain are very much humbled, and have returned to their spiritual roots.
Assuming that the Force has a sentient will like Qui-Gon thinks it does, Anakin was dropped in the galaxy as much in order to test the Jedi as he was conceived to btfo the Sith. As Qui-Gon tells Shmi, if Anakin was born in the Core, he would have been taken to the Jedi shortly after birth and indoctrinated in their ways. Instead, he got yeeted to the Outer Rim where he would be inserted into the Jedi ideology after gaining attachment to his mother and an understanding of how the imperfections of the galaxy (slavery in the Outer Rim) impact the people who have to live in it.
The Jedi failed and Anakin blew them the fuck out, allowing Anakin's son to rebuild the Jedi into a form more suited to following the will of the Force.
Disney's movies aren't real.
The force isn't necessarily anymore against the Sith than it cares about the Jedi.
We're used as a narrative device to make Anakin become a jedi when the Order thought it knew everything about the force.
the force is my friend, seethe you old bitch
The Force is that in the movies too, which is exactly what KOTOR 2 is critiquing.
Also, Kreia makes some good points, but she’s also a massive hypocrite since her strength comes from the Force.
Imagine not understanding Star Wars
Star Wars is overrated, but I find amusing how everything that wasn't made by George Lucas is utterly cringe
>she’s also a massive hypocrite since her strength comes from the Force.
The lesson of strength she teaches to the exile is to cultivate a power that doesn't stem from the force.
Which I've always found retarded since the Force is a part of the user. Imagine if I started going around telling people to cultivate strength that doesn't stem from their muscles. or to learn to think without their brains.
Imagine being this retarded. Kreia is Nietzsche's arguments from Beyond Good and Evil implemented in Star Wars. She's not Avellone's self insert, she's Avellone's insert of master morality.
Nietzsche was a pseud
I did not claim that Nietzsche was or was not a pseud. Doesn't remove the fact that Avellone was blatantly inspired by Beyond Good and Evil for Kotor 2 and writing Kreia.
Still mad at being mogged Freud?
>Nietzsche's
Fuck off
A hypocrite can still be correct.
At least she encourages you to also partake in and expand upon your mundane non-force related skills. She also appears to not treat non force-senstives with condescension, like many sith do openly and some jedi do at least covertly or under the guise of benevolence. She respects will and the ability to impose that will uponother people and the galaxy at large.
She uses the force, but more as a means to an end than an end in itself, while jedia derive some sort of divine mission from it and convntional sith intoxicate them on the power the force provides with both sides becoming dependent to it in a sense. So you could make the case for Kreia not being that much of a hypocrite, but in the end it might have just been a break from character in her case to allow her to do star wars-y stuff. Having her run around until the end with a blaster or a vibro blade would have been disappointing for players and while Obsidian took some liberties with the material they got, they had to still adhere to the basic tar wars formula to a degree.
In the end, this might have resulted in a slightly watered down Kreia character, but that was as good as it was going to get. Imagine you let Abrams write Kotor2. If Kreia would appear at all, she would have been some background character being strawmanned to convey the message to dont dwell n the details too much, heres another lasersword scene you like so much!
>Also, Kreia makes some good points, but she’s also a massive hypocrite since her strength comes from the Force.
I think that's the point man - it's like a drunk telling you between drinks to never become an alcoholic because it'll ruin your fucking life
>revan "fell" so he could use dark side powers
fuck you all
I love this meta shit its genius
The sole purpose of the Force is to bully Mission for laughs
If you didn't have her pet wookie kill her for that sweet sweet irony, were you even really playing a Sith?
>sacryfing
These "memes" are solely made by underage ESLs.
>sacryfing
Good morning sirs
>Evil Wizards shoot lighting
>Good Wizards psychically throw people
>NNMHMMH BUT BUT, I WANNA SHOOT LIGHTING AND BE A SUPER GOOD GUY!
>AND THE JEDI ARE LIKE MY DAD THEY CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!
>I'M THE SUPER DUPER GOOD GUY!
Being a space wizard is cool but the games are gay
Also
>the Force in other Star Wars
They canonized KOTOR's bullshit.
With fucking Rey.
You're all either retarded or intentionally acting retarded. I refuse to believe you could intentionally miss the point this hard, however.
nagger I LIKE KOTOR 2, much more so than 1 because it treats the story a lot more serious than pretty much any other SW media, but you can't deny that Kreia may as well just be a self insert from Chris Avellone.
>Kreia is their attempt at making it more "mature", but it just comes off as someone who is bitter that people prefer space wizards to tolkein-shit.
I reject this outright.
>you can't deny that Kreia may as well just be a self insert from Chris Avellone.
This I can reject, but would accept given any argument to demonstrate it.
Bizarre that you think your personal opinions are worthy of a contribution here. Lurk before posting, homosexual.
Literally everything posted here that isn't hard data is a personal opinion you stupid homosexual. Lurk moar before making such a fucking redundant, worthless comment that would be worth jack shit on a blog post.
shut up you retarded fucking homosexual there's no culture on Ganker to protect. There is no point to lurking. Nobody does it, Because Ganker is a cesspool with no genuine discussion or anyone with any value. If you want to post that lurk moar shit how about you go to a board that isn't meant for literal 12 year old retards to post on?
>"there is no secret there is only you"
Nigga was it that obvious?
>NO NO NO YOU'RE NOT SMART
>I'M THE SMART KING OF SMARTOPIA. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT I'M ACTUALLY DEEP AND COMPLEX AND MY JEDI POWER FANTASY LETS ME USE BOTH SIDES FORCE POWERS
>I'M ALSO A DOUBLE GOOD GUY BEYOND JEDIS
It's perfectly functional for a game, but it's fucking retarded otherwise.
Simple rules.
The force is literally just hindu mysticism. It's impossible for Star Wars to be intellectual because it ripped off a debunked theology created by people that think eating cow dookie gives them super powers.
No theology or mystic structure was ever truly debunked, you're just sitting behind barriers of an entity, same barriers of which prevent the aforementioned by you people from descending even further into rot.
by "debunked" he means "Jesus said it isn't real"
Considering that Jesus Christ is king and lord. Can you reasonably claim he's wrong?
>king
I didn't vote for him
>Jesus Christ is king and lord
Of the israelites, perhaps
kotor has always been canon. unlike disney's nuwars
>jedi use non lethal force powers
>sith electrocute you to death
Telekinetic wave is very fucking lethal
Emerald lightning exists. And it is just.
>Luke strangles a pigman to death
>no one cares
That wasn't a force power though.
There's no one left to care, Luke isn't a Jedi, not really.
That pig man suffered a more merciful death than what that vorenagger palace usually offers those in the wrong place and wrong time.
Storm was my most used force power outside of speed in my last run of KOTOR 2 and I went full jedi jesus.
Kreia is literally a sith, every word that comes out of her mouth is a brazen lie meant to demoralize you so she can achieve greater power. Shit like this is why I'm confident nobody who likes KOTOR 2 ever played it, they've only seen a few screenshots on Ganker and reddit and though the pseudointellectual fedora-tipping was the entire game.
>Missing the point this fucking hard
I think you might just be low IQ bro. Like, unironically.
>missing the point
the point is that she's EVIL and is manipulating you because she's the fucking villain you're supposed to defeat in the end, this isn't Citizen Kane here
>Kreia is just...LE SITH
How else am I supposed to react.
>how am I supposed to react
To what, the revealing of their names as DARTH Traya, DARTH Sion, DARTH Nihlus? You didn't think their transparently superficia; take on Nietszhean ubermensch was sincere do you?
>revealing of their names as DARTH Traya
Her name isn't Darth Traya, it's Kreia. She was Darth Traya.
>You didn't think their transparently superficial take on Nietszhean ubermensch was sincere do you?
You call that superficial, yet your take of " she's just...LE SITH" isn't? Fucking Christ you're dumb.
You unironically don't get it.
You strike me as the sort of fellow who thinks Paradise Lost was pro-Satan
No, while it offers a sympathetic view on Satan, ultimately he is depicted as evil.
it kinda is, even the Bible is pro Satan. Even when slandering him people accidentally admit the truth
Even Milton was unsure if he did. So people aren’t wrong thinking either way and you college lecture was a lie.
her name is Arren Kae
BUT THAT'S JUST A THEORY
the only reason she always turns on you is rushed development.
>dude balance lol
>literally does insane amounts of evil dark side shit and eventually pulls out a red lightsaber, becomes Darth Kreia and fights you
>she's not a sith you just don't get it
she's literally the equivalent of some commie going on and on about peace and dialogue knowing that all she's doing is making you weaker and questioning yourself and your cause.
>/pol/tard takes
This explains so much
>absolute redditor keeps on redditing
Only fucking subjective morality fags are stupid enough to fall for Darth Trayas talking points without realizing that whether she realizes it or not she was "seduced" by the dark side and it's temptations and is carrying out traditional dark side goals.
>that whether she realizes it or not she was "seduced" by the dark side and it's temptations and is carrying out traditional dark side goals
That's an entirely separate discussion.
It's really not. She's a poster child for the "I'm too smart and unbiased to fall for propaganda" mindset.
Kreia is literally Juan Posadas. Her entire point is to nuking everyone back into the stone age, so people can finally be free of capitalism (the force)
History is full of "neutral third parties" who are very clearly aligned to one side or the other and simply pretending to be neutral to further the goals of their side. It's a classic trope and the funny part is that the "you missed the point crowd" are the ones missing the point
Kreia admits she might be doing that subconsciously.
Juan Posadas never pretended to be a "neutral third party". He's a radical communist and believed that the only way to make communism happen is by cleansing the world in nuclear hellfire, destroying the infrastructure necessary for the capitalist mode of economics and society. You might disagree with his means and you might call him insane, but you can hardly disagree with the consequences of nuking society back to the stone age, with regards to global capitalism.
And the same applies to Kreia. She has an agenda and it's very clear. Severing everyone from the Force, including herself. Allowing them to act for themselves, rather than by having an invisible force of contrivance dictate everyone's fates and actions at all time. Of course, the consequences of making such a thing happen are comparable to cleansing the world in nuclear hellfire.
You can hardly fault her for her plan or her goal, only for the her underestimating how far the reach of the Force goes.
Nah you sound a lot more retarded the more you speak.
>can't fault her
Yeah you can, if you weren't as retarded as you are
Do you think that global capitalism would remain after a full-on nuclear exchange?
Juan Posadas did not. The reasoning is sound, it's just that the means are insane.
>if we nuke the world the masses will take over
No?
>you can't fault his goal
Yeah I can, the idea of nuking the world to obliterate capitalism is something any thinking person would fault. Since you aren't you clearly don't but oh well.
>Putting words in his mouth
>Doesn't understand the difference between means and goals
lmao, fucking retard
Fuck you are truly too stupid to be worth further (you)s. Enjoy this last one
Cope
>No?
I didn't say that, I said if we nuke the world global capitalism ends. Which is trivially true and if you disagree, you must have religious zeal.
>you can't fault his goal
I made no value judgment about his goals, I only judged his means to be feasible.
>the idea of nuking the world to obliterate capitalism is something any thinking person would fault
But the question is whether it would work, not whether it is good or bad.
>Globalization infrastructure being gone wouldn't change how economics works, commie homosexual.
I think the economic realitiess would change quite drastically if society was annhilated, but maybe I'm not a true believer.
Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments and it was invented in the 19th century, there is nothing fundamental about it existing. Economics work even if they are not capitalism, a notable example would French mercantilist economics from the 17th century. It's a system very distinct from the way capitalism functions.
>nowhere along that chain of events would the labor "theory" of value suddenly become accurate.
Yeah, but nobody is saying that. Posadas is saying if you nuke the world back into the stone age people will live their lives more communally and less alienated from their labor, which is entirely true.
>Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments and it was invented in the 19th century, there is nothing fundamental about it existing
Shut the fuck up communist. Your bullshit is empirically wrong. Historical materialism is bullshit. Labor theory of value is bullshit. You spread this bullshit to people who don't know any better because First Frame persuasion is psychologically effective even if it's preaching bullshit.
>muh alienated labor
have a nice day. Labor becomes more efficient with technology so people spend less time laboring and more time on leisure. Marx was trying to pander to the literal Luddites at the time because they were butthurt about factories making things cheaper and easier for everyone with the strength of character to work for a living instead of leeching off their aristocratic wife and friend.
>Shut the fuck up communist. Your bullshit is empirically wrong. Historical materialism is bullshit. Labor theory of value is bullshit. You spread this bullshit to people who don't know any better because First Frame persuasion is psychologically effective even if it's preaching bullshit.
We can talk if you can refute my counterexample, explain how the economic realities of French mercantilism, or Colbertism, under Luis XIV are comparable to capitalism in the mid-18th century.
You'll find some key differences, especially in the way taxation functions under Colbertism and the way in impacts the economy from the bottom to the very top. Of course, mercantilism was incredibly successful, but it was also absolutely non-capitalist.
>Labor becomes more efficient with technology so people spend less time laboring and more time on leisure
And yet, this isn't what is happening at all.
As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity.
This has nothing to do with pandering to Luddites. It's just simple observations.
Regardless, I am not here to talk to you about the validity of certain ideas of a frankly very boring and often wrong 19th century economist. And you need to divorce Marx, the economist from Marx, the political pundit. They are two very different people.
What I really want to talk about is nuking every major population center.
>explain how the economic realities of French mercantilism, or Colbertism, under Luis XIV are comparable to capitalism in the mid-18th century
The feudal contract that European monarchy was based on in the age of absolutism was explicitly a property contract. LOUIS owned the crown, the dukes owned land at his leisure, and the serfs paid their rent via labor and could in fact accrue some currency accumulation themselves. The same economic practices attributed to capitalism are observable in any economy. Even in the commie shithole USSR people would hoard food stamps and popular goods like cigarettes.
>And yet, this isn't what is happening at all
>capitalist countries have businesses openly experimenting with 4 day workweeks
>commute time evaporates from WfH
>meanwhile shitty commie countries forced people to mine at gunpoint to try and keep up with the capitalist countries shitting down their throat
>They are two very different people.
No. And he's wrong on literally fucking everything which is why Vladimir Lenin basically had to rewrite Marxism in his own image to try and make its bullshit conform to reality
>The feudal contract that European monarchy was based on in the age of absolutism was explicitly a property contract.
And yet, you miss the crucial point. There is no way to trade that property, it is given to you by God. Only God can assign and revoke these property rights. And by extension the crown, but the crown is still subject to the rest of the nobility and can be deposed if necessary.
And again, Capitalism is a word that means something specific. It does not refer to "people owning things". It refers to a specific mode of ownership with a specific goal in mind. After all, it's capitalism, not "ownerism".
>capitalist countries have businesses openly experimenting with 4 day workweeks
Which kinds of businesses? And how long did that take? How many improvements in productivity without improvements in compensation happened in the meantime?
>No. And he's wrong on literally fucking everything which is why Vladimir Lenin basically had to rewrite Marxism in his own image to try and make its bullshit conform to reality
Then I recommend you go read Kapital.
See you in 6 months.
>There is no way to trade that property
Yes there fucking is, retard. Feudal lords sold their property all the fucking time. The Hapsburgs and Hohenzollerns both started in Switzerland and ended up in Austria and Prussia. Wars within the same religious culture for 1000 years were all property contract disputes.
>by God
Just a rationalization by monarchs coping with the fact traders had accrued enough wealth to rival them and impose more liberal policies through influence.
>And again, Capitalism is a word that means something specific. It does not refer to "people owning things"
Fucking READ nagger.
>How many improvements in productivity without improvements in compensation happened in the meantime?
How many improvements in productivity can you fucking name that are solely from labor? Or from labor at all? Labor doesn't improve its own productivity, retard. It improves aggregate productivity in the form of GDP. Technology improves productivity and decreases labor demand.
Of course communists don't know basic fucking C+I+G+NX economics.
>Then I recommend you go read Kapital
I've read more academic literature in the past year than a communist homosexual like you has in a lifetime. I'm not reading any more of Marx's bullshit because he's fucking wrong. I'm not reading Geocentric Astronomics either.
>I've read more academic literature in the past year than a communist homosexual like you has in a lifetime.
Clearly not of the historical variety.
I also think it's interesting how obsessive you are with assigning beliefs to someone who just earlier said that Posadas' idea of cleaning the world in nuclear hellfire might be a good way to get rid of capitalism.
You should study more, especially when it comes to people skills or you might end up as an analyst slave. We wouldn't want that, would we?
Also, it's never a good thing to be a true believer.
>Clearly not of the historical variety
More like not of the historical materialist variety because I'm not a socioeconomic creationist pseudointellectual pretending to be insightful by memorizing my cringe commie Bible instead of reading something empirical.
When have I used historical materialism, can you point to it, autismfriend?
>When have I used historical materialism
>Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments and it was invented in the 19th century, there is nothing fundamental about it existing
>if you nuke the world back into the stone age people will live their lives more communally and less alienated from their labor, which is entirely true.
>As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity.
>Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments and it was invented in the 19th century, there is nothing fundamental about it existing
I'm noticing a pattern, you are having trouble distinguishing two terms that use the same word, but mean different things in context. The way the word capitalism is used in the economic, academic sense is distinct from the miquetoast ideological way.
I will reiterate what I said multiple times, capitalism has a specific meaning and it refer to one specific economic system. It is not value judgment. It simply refers to a system that exists. Try to not get emotional when you hear "Capitalism", it makes it very difficult to communicate.
>if you nuke the world back into the stone age people will live their lives more communally and less alienated from their labor, which is entirely true.
Which is not historical materialism, if you work directly to not die, you are lot more invested in and closer to the work you do. Would you really disagree with that?
>As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity.
The productivity-pay gap is well-documented.
All I am saying are trivially true things and you're throwing fits. Why? Why assign fantasy labels to me in your head, why not just read what I write and respond to that?
Are you so fucking stupid you don't even know what historical materialism is? It literally has a Wikipedia article you could look at if you're so disingenuous you can't stand being pointed out as full of shit.
Attributing every single fucking development in human society to Marxist class conflict as expressed through technological development is historical materialism. If you're so fucking out to lunch that you don't even know the name of the stupid bullshit you're peddling that doesn't account for the concepts of altruism, consent, or non-accumulation motivation for policy and individual behavior, your pseudointellectual bullshit is even more pathetic.
The Marxist definitions and presuppositions in everything you've said thus far are manipulative and degenerative tactics designed to insulate the incorrect ontological framework of Marxism from criticism. Profit and self-interest motivation expressed through consensual exchange facilitated by fungible and liquid currencies are capitalist exchanges by nature regardless of whether it's Crassus or Elon Musk doing them, limiting the definitional scope of capitalism and pretending that history is a clear line going from one system to another is a Marxist and fundamentally incorrect assumption based on any circumspect and empirically-rooted study of history, economics or other social sciences.
Where am I attributing things to class conflict exactly?
Are you just following a script?
>Where am I attributing things to class conflict exactly?
>Which kinds of businesses? And how long did that take? How many improvements in productivity without improvements in compensation happened in the meantime?
>Then I recommend you go read Kapital.
>As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity.
>capitalism economics are only one possible economic system and historically, there were many economic systems that were not capitalist. I will reiterate, capitalism is a consequence of the consolidation of financial power that happened with the industrial revolution
have a nice day, question-begging Soviet propaganda-larping undergraduate homosexual.
I agree if you totally fucking change all the frames and scope conditions and realities of what you're talking about you can jerk off fairy dust onto a page and fabricate a reality that doesn't exist as a nonsequitur based on just defending your own bullshit ontology
kinds of businesses? And how long did that take? How many improvements in productivity without improvements in compensation happened in the meantime?
None of this is class conflict, it's just the productivity pay gap again.
>Then I recommend you go read Kapital.
How is telling you to read a boring economics book attributing things to class conflict?
>As work becomes more efficient, people become more productive and yet, they also have either less or the same amount of leisure time and their income also does not increase proportionally to the increase in productivity.
Observing the productivity pay gap, has little to do with class conflict.
>capitalism economics are only one possible economic system and historically, there were many economic systems that were not capitalist. I will reiterate, capitalism is a consequence of the consolidation of financial power that happened with the industrial revolution
How does saying "capitalism was invented alongside industrialization" relate to class conflict, can you explain?
>have a nice day, question-begging Soviet propaganda-larping undergraduate homosexual.
You're not arguing with me, you are arguing with a fantasy that exists inside your head.
The "muh productivity gap" shit is class conflict Marxist bullshit because it presupposes the labor theory of value that any kind of growth in productivity has to be driven by labor when it isn't true. Nothing is stolen from someone if their employer's supply chain becomes more efficient thanks to broadband internet and that results in less waste and more profit.
The communist presuppositions are baked into LITERALLY every argument or comment you've made so far whether about the original analogy to the game or the theory discussions that ensued.
Capitalism being another link in the linear chain of history is another Marxist presupposition.
I don't give a fuck about your childish attempts at Soviet sophistry I've read more of your shitty literature than you have on top of everything else. The only way you can declare a hollow victory in your mind as a coping mechanism is if you falseflag people into thinking anyone agrees with your bullshit, or you get the last word in before the thread dies
>thanks to broadband internet
Broadband internet, in the 80s?
Come up with a better explanation, please.
Make an effort, please.
>Capitalism being another link in the linear chain of history is another Marxist presupposition.
But I am nowhere asserting that there is a linear progression to history. I am asserting that means are required to reach certain systems. This is a trivial statement, within any frame of reference and something you can hardly find fault with.
After all, you can hardly figure out how to build a gun without knowing what gunpowder is.
>I don't give a fuck about your childish attempts at Soviet sophistry I've read more of your shitty literature than you have on top of everything else. The only way you can declare a hollow victory in your mind as a coping mechanism is if you falseflag people into thinking anyone agrees with your bullshit, or you get the last word in before the thread dies
Again, you are arguing with a fantasy. I'd help you a lot if you read my replies and not just made up things.
Maybe read back on what you are actually arguing about. I recommend taking a step back at this point.
>Broadband internet, in the 80s?
>Come up with a better explanation, please.
>Make an effort, please.
Home computing
Internet proliferation
Other comtech like pagers
Higher efficiency fuels, polymers and alloys
More literacy and health all over the world
Lower Reaganomics corporate taxation levels leading to more investment
Nice fucking deliberate ignorance ploy, homosexual.
>But I am nowhere asserting that there is a linear progression to history
The retarded statement that capitalism only started existing in a specific time even when any possible component of capitalism you could possibly point to de facto or even de jure existed already in other places at other times at other development levels highlights the fallacious reasoning behind everything you're saying
Society does not develop in the same way that a product chain like your stupid gun analogy presupposes. And the gun analogy doesn't even work because you don't need gunpowder specifically to make a gun unless you fuck with the definition of gunpowder to either be a highly specific chemical or a general concept depending on what kind of rhetorical argument you want to slither into. But hopefully the gun analogy does mean you have one in your mouth
>Again, you are arguing with a fantasy. I'd help you a lot if you read my replies and not just made up things.
Pure fucking cope you keep question begging for citations and I give them to you knowing full well you're going to try and sophistry your way out of all the holes you're digging instead of putting holes in your skull like you should
>Home computing
>Internet proliferation
>Other comtech like pagers
>Higher efficiency fuels, polymers and alloys
>More literacy and health all over the world
>Lower Reaganomics corporate taxation levels leading to more investment
None of these really explain the stagnation in wage growth from the 80s onwards.
Surely, as people are able to provide more value to your company you'd pay them more? That's how wages generally work.
>any possible component of capitalism you could possibly point to de facto or even de jure existed already in other places at other times
Tell me more about large-scale factories, especially with regards to mass production of intermediate goods.
>Society does not develop in the same way that a product chain like your stupid gun analogy presupposes.
But we are not talking about a "product chain", this would imply logistics and such. Technology is distinct. The question is about the first gun, no the second or third or 5000th. Just the first one is enough.
Are you projecting? Could it be that you are the undergrad here? The way you look at things and centralize them around the terminology you have been taught reeks of undergraduate education.
>And the gun analogy doesn't even work because you don't need gunpowder specifically to make a gun unless you fuck with the definition of gunpowder to either be a highly specific chemical or a general concept depending on what kind of rhetorical argument you want to slither into.
I don't care, either works in my example.
You still can't conceptualize a gun if you don't know gunpowder exists.
>you keep question begging for citations
But I am not.
>I give them to you
And you're not giving them to me.
>But hopefully the gun analogy does mean you have one in your mouth
Why are you so mad about losing a meaningless online argument?
>None of these really explain the stagnation in wage growth from the 80s onwards.
>Surely, as people are able to provide more value to your company you'd pay them more? That's how wages generally work.
You're literally fucking ignoring shit I said at this point to keep trying to declare victory.
Fuck your labor theory of value and have a nice day communist homosexual.
Justify why you should get a wage increase when the business profitability increase had nothing to do with you and everything to do with the improvements in efficiency from technology.
Anyone can read your disingenuous bullshit ITT and see you running in circles since you can't handle being confronted by someone who knows more about this shit than you. It's not in your commie agitprop playbook. You haven't justified a single one of your positive claims and have just ignored every single point you've been BTFO'd on.
Tie the rope and jump you fucking homosexual
You'd do better if you addressed what I am saying instead of throwing around buzzwords.
Please address the following sentence:
>As a worker provides more value to the company, that worker should to be paid more.
The job market functions based on this idea (warped by supply and demand ofc). Why wouldn't this pattern be reflected in larger-scale trends? Surely, the productivity pay gap should not exist, based on these simple economic principles.
How do you explain this not happening?
I am yet to receive a satisfactory answer.
>the business profitability increase had nothing to do with you and everything to do with the improvements in efficiency from technology.
Surely the worker has some influence on the technology being employed, hence being paid more to perform more (or new) labor, this would generally be something that would affect the average and move it upwards. But this isn't the trend we see. Why?
>Tie the rope and jump you fucking homosexual
Why are you so mad just because you can win this meaningless online argument?
You are still fucking connecting the profitability growth of the company to the labor because you're a disingenuous communist retard who's pretending this wasn't addressed several times already in direct fucking replies to you so no I'm not linking them again.
>just because you can win this meaningless online argument
Freudian as all hell eh homosexual?
Of course I'm not going to satisfy your stupid homosexual communist criteria because you keep rewriting it and ignoring your own assfuckings repeatedly in the thread. I keep pointing out how fucking retarded you are for the benefit of anyone else who doesn't suck off dead Germans who might have been fucked by the framing effect into believing your bullshit.
>As a worker provides more value to the company, that worker should to be paid more.
"Should" has no meaning.
>Also, capitalism was a consequence of technological developments
Capitalism is a rhetorical device invented by Marx in his strategy for attaining power over a mostly free nation and to trick midwits into thinking they were smart for apposing free association.
Mostly as a way to continue being a bum.
>Do you think that global capitalism would remain after a full-on nuclear exchange?
Yes, because a full-on nuclear exchange is unlikely to severely damage global capital.
Either you're doing counter-force strikes (against military targets to disable their ability to nuke you back, so missile silos and ships and airbases etc) in which case the infrastructure of global capital remains intact or else you're doing counter-value strikes (against population centers) which means your enemy still has the means to strike back and the entire world has a justifiable motive for wiping your country from existence and you lose, and global capital is restored by the security of the victorious military.
Which isn't going to be the one whose nukes don't work.
>I don't understand how devastating nukes are and why M.A.D developed
>I don't understand how devastating nukes are and why M.A.D developed
Do you?
The reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were so destructive is because Japanese cities are made of fucking wood and paper, and what do you think a fireball is going to do to that? Realistic simulations of a nuclear exchange in the present estimate maximum casualties of approximately 30 million (long-term) for countervalue strikes in the United States. Counter-force is a tenth of that. This is assuming every single missile China and Russia claims to have not only A.) exists, but B.) works, C.) makes it to each target, and D.) hits each target. Terminator 2 is not a documentary.
The mechanical realities don't really matter overly much. Substistute nuclear war for whichever calamity you think can feasibly be caused by people.
I can fault you for sounding like a retard.
>but you can hardly disagree with the consequences of nuking society back to the stone age, with regards to global capitalism
Globalization infrastructure being gone wouldn't change how economics works, commie homosexual.
If people survived the nuclear holocaust and the planet was still inhabitable, people would just rebuild and eventually get back to modern technological sophistication and nowhere along that chain of events would the labor "theory" of value suddenly become accurate.
forcing society to go back to purely hunter-gatherer WOULD change how economics work, literally by definition
Yeah, I'm sure the communist utopia is just one nuclear apocalypse away
>literally by definition
No, not by definition.
In the stone age, Grug hunted deer and gave some meat to Grog in exchange for the arrows and knives Grog was making all day. They bartered the same way people do today in the absence of currency. Once a postapocalyptic society got sophisticated enough to have currency, their economics would obey the same laws as ours.
>but you can hardly disagree with the consequences of nuking society back to the stone age, with regards to global capitalism.
Sure, it would become way less global, just like fucking everything, but that would just take us back to bartering, as in, the purest form of capitalism.
To function capitalism requires abstract currency, it cannot function under a barter system, because capitalism is not "trade".
Capitalism is not a fundamental aspect of economics, capitalism economics are only one possible economic system and historically, there were many economic systems that were not capitalist. I will reiterate, capitalism is a consequence of the consolidation of financial power that happened with the industrial revolution.
Capitalism is not "when there is trade", it is a very specific thing.
>To function capitalism requires abstract currency
Even by communist homosexuals' definition that's not true
Accumulation is possible with any fungible, liquid commodity that doesn't degrade which is why the first proto-currencies were things like seashells.
Yes, but now address the rest. You need a currency and you need the industrial means to make use of it on a large scale. If all you can really do with it is pay mercenaries, the best you can hope for is something akin to Feudalism.
>You need a currency
I literally just fucking told you you don't NEED a currency for capitalist (aka empirically correct) economic processes to play out. You need currency to smooth the process out and make exchanges more valuable and frequent but not to make accumulation and exchange possible.
>the best you can hope for is something akin to Feudalism
Feudalism is just a policy solution to rent and a division of labor based on the degrading infrastructure of the late Roman Empire. Everyone owed rent to the highest authority (the Pope, the Emperor, whoever in the specific region) and paid the rent to them with middlemen like dukes and sheriffs taking cuts along the chain.
It was still profit motivated, it was still based on exchange and ownership of property.
>I literally just fucking told you you don't NEED a currency for capitalist (aka empirically correct) economic processes to play out.
But you just said you need a an abstract currency:
>any fungible, liquid commodity that doesn't degrade which is why the first proto-currencies were things like seashells.
Why suddenly change your mind? What's up with that?
>It was still profit motivated, it was still based on exchange and ownership of property.
Then why did feudalist states look nothing like capitalist ones?
Seashells aren't a fucking abstract currency, retard. Neither are gold coins. Seashells had value to cavemen. It stored that value in a way that didn't rot unlike say fruit. Gold has similar value along with more industrial value. A fiat currency is "abstract"
>Then why did feudalist states look nothing like capitalist ones?
They fucking did you retard they were just technologically less sophisticated because education and physical infrastructure had collapsed 300 years prior.
There were literally commodity traders all over the world at the time making money in the form of fucking cash. Have you ever heard of the fucking Silk Road? Or do you just jerk off to the same 5 commie fanfiction books over and over?
>Seashells aren't a fucking abstract currency, retard. Neither are gold coins. Seashells had value to cavemen. It stored that value in a way that didn't rot unlike say fruit. Gold has similar value along with more industrial value. A fiat currency is "abstract"
Sure, but once we start issuing seashell certificates and debt, it get abstract real quick. And that's not a high level of abstraction.
>They fucking did you retard they were just technologically less sophisticated because education and physical infrastructure had collapsed 300 years prior.
But they did not.
>But they did not
>the roman highways that eroded and academies that closed as deurbanization took over didn't degrade physical and educational infrastructure
>seashell certificates
AKA a currency backed by the seashell commodity
>debt
A deferred sum of seashells agreed upon to be delivered in the future.
A fiat currency that inverts the dynamic by deriving value from existing value is an abstract currency.
But don't you see that seashell certificates and debt mean fractional reserve banking is suddenly viable?
If YOU want to abstract it that far, but in practical terms a pseudo-currency is not going to be abstracted that far in lieu of just making an actual currency out of the certificates, which would facilitate money market shit insofar as the state organizing the seashell certificate currency allowed it.
A state could insist on nothing but coinage and direct deferred payment debt as a matter of policy that would basically remove any practical abstraction from the economy.
But if you nuke everything, you won't really find "states", will you?
Not while the fires are literally still burning but in the aftermath, yes you would.
If the planet doesn't go extinct and humans or some other new superspecies repopulate, unless that superspecies isn't social in which case the likelihood of them becoming tool-users or traders goes way down, the laws of economics and social organization would reemerge as the population grew and demand for more efficient exploitation of resources also grew
We can always argue about timescales and such.
But if you guide the rebuilding effort in the right way, states are avoidable and communal power structures are entirely feasible. At least that's what Posadas thought.
But Posadas was also insane.
>communal power structures are entirely feasible
Not when stress tested by meritocratic, competitive, hierarchical systems emerging parallel and competing for scarce resources.
God forbid I paint with a slightly broad brush for a moment when talking to a communist that will gladly vomit red all over everything but throw a tantrum whenever anyone in opposition does a little generalizing, but even if in isolated instances you can see a successful communal society outcompeting a more hierarchical one, the Columbian Exchange highlights how there's always a bigger fish and Darwinian forces will always gravitate towards an adaptive, dynamic system EVENTUALLY outcompeting a more sedentary collaborative one.
It's no coincidence that the President of the United States has gotten more powerful as the US has also gotten more powerful
And yet, as far as we know, historically, people lived in communal villages for thousands of years.
While it might lose with time, on a reasonably short thousand year timescale, nuclear annihilation would still result in the desired result.
why would that result be desirable?
these small communal villages were still filled with pettiness violence and superstition, people died from preventable diseases and starvation, and their quality of life was generally far lower. do you somehow think you'd be happier living in a place like that? because if you wanna go be a turnip farmer in some poor village there's still plenty of places like that in the world that you can move to.
>why would that result be desirable?
You are forgetting the framing of the conversation, the desired result is the destruction of global capitalism (as envisioned by a madman). And just in case you are forgetting, Posadas is only really interesting, people here are obsessed with displaying their politics, so they'll argue it relentlessly.
The only reason I ever brought him up was to parallel Kreia and her goals.
In any sense, yes this is accomplishing the desired result.
Whether the result is good or bad, that's not the subject of a discussion about the merits of a nuclear holocaust in relation to the continued existence of capitalism.
Kreia acts like a rule of two sith, gaslighting and lying to everybody, yet achieves jackshit. So shit of a sith lord that Baras stole and imprisoned her spirit, someone that outsmarted that Sith Emperor, unlike Revan.
>successfully wipes out the Sith AND the Jedi
>sets up her apprentice to create the continuation
>achieves jackshit
>successfully wipes out the Sith AND the Jedi
the kotor(s) sith were not the true Sith.
>sets up her apprentice to create the continuation
I'm guessing you meant the continuation of the Jedi order. Kinda, there were uncover Sith that were intentionally sealing up the sith tombs (less resistance to the sith emperor) and helping the puppets governments along with introducing form 7 and other dark side abilities in order to lure in Jedi to the dark side.
SWTOR is not canon, sorry
canon is a bible term
ok, how about "SWTOR's story wasn't even a concept when KOTOR2 was made and thus cannot and should not even be considered when discussing either KOTOR"
it doesn't matter what the people making it had in mind
>swtor unlike kotor, featured Nomi Sunrider of the Tales of the Jedi comics, and her Holocron was used by Leia in Dark Empire. She also meant a descendent of Sunrider.
>in SWTOR you fight Jakir Halcyon, the ancestor of Nejaa Halcyon (appeared in the Jedi Trial novel) and Corran Horn of the X Wings Books
canon is a social construct. when the author, writer, game dev, artist, and or greedy amoral execs that control a series violate it, they no longer have a say in what's canon. that's how it's always been and always will be, plebs need not apply
>Was Kreia based?
No, she is just a mouthpiece for one of the writers who thinks that Star Wars is childish to begin with. Kreia is their attempt at making it more "mature", but it just comes off as someone who is bitter that people prefer space wizards to tolkein-shit.
Kreia LITERALLY says that in the end she's just a bitter old woman that has to rely on a thing she despises. That was the whole point.
>Kreia says she hates the Force because it dooms the galaxy to suffer through multiple wars in the name of balance
>years after KotOR2, the sequel trilogy proves her right when it makes a point that the Force will auto-balance the light and dark side teams whenever they aren't at the same level of power
>The Force literally ass pulls the Emperor from vaporization into existence again
The Force works in mysterious ways.
>years after KotOR2, the sequel trilogy proves her right when it makes a point that the Force will auto-balance the light and dark side teams whenever they aren't at the same level of power
This is just disneyfags not understanding what it means for the Force to be balanced. The dark side is like a tumor, the Force is balanced when it doesn't exist. The idea that you need an equal amount of evil and good is fucking retarded and explicitly against what George stated.
both sides are fucking the same and does roughly the same shit, it only becomes an imbalance when people starts abusing it, something that is easier to do with the "dark side" since its mostly powered by emotions instead of autistic training
>both sides are fucking the same
Unbelievably stupid.
Exactly
I still stand on 'Things are in balance when you can handle both sides like an adult'
And no, I don't care what George says given he was an emotionally stunted manlet. There's no moral failing in being afraid, not when righteous anger is still a type of anger, and a difference between just hatred of evil and unchanneled, directionless rage at reality.
His philosophy is fundamentally lacking and squaring the circle will never be possible as long as people stick to 'The dark side is when I feel the badwrong feelings and that has to be hacked out of me with a scalpel.'
Jedi Survivor kinda touched on themes like that. I dunno how to spoil text but I'd pirate the game if that kinda theme in star wars interests you and you can stomach somewhat bloated open world design.
Jedi Survivor has Denuvo and is uncracked
that sucks, sorry to hear
It's more of a misunderstanding of the idea, people seem to assume the dark side doesn't do these things as well. But it does, it's not the force trying to bring balance to light and dark, the struggle is that whenever the dark side gets suppressed the jedi get compliant and allow it to grow mistakenly thinking it was removed.
I really dislike the tendency in Star Wars to just have one view be absolutely and objectively correct, rather than giving the viewer lots of different interpretations of the universe and letting them figure it out on their own.
It shouldn't be blindingly obvious which side is the correct one about the force.
neither "side" is correct. the force is a parasite that whispers into the mind of the host.
I think balance in the force actually means there are no users, period. It used Anakin to kill all of the Jedi, then kill the last remaining Sith before dying himself, leaving one force user left that isn't indoctrinated into either belief system, the perfect neutral force user.
>explicitly against what George stated.
Who cares
George is a total moron and his vision of the force is total horseshit. See Midicholorium. That was his idea from the start but it got shot down by smarter people during the original trilogy. The prequel is what you get when George has full creative control.
>and explicitly against what George stated.
George also stated that Force is closer to Eastern Nirvana and Ying Yang. Which makes Dark Side part of the balance.
It's none blame but George polluting creativity with protestant objectivism (cannot call is philosophy)
>invisible gravity gun
I accidentally stumpled upon a big buff in that game when I denied the wookie buff because the game was already easy enough as it was. Kreia complimented me something about relying on your own strength. In the end, ironically making the game even easier
Kreia loves that self-actualization/determination type stuff. She generally likes any action/response where you show proper inner development and wit.
i love kotor 2 but you can trace all the retarded grey morality in disney star wars from it so in that, it has done more damage to star wars than anyone could possibly imagine
nobody at disney has ever played a video game
it's kind of funny how eager everyone is to blame all the shortcomings of Disney Wars on anything but Disney themselves
Who's to blame for a bad thing: the inventor of the bad thing, or the company that copies the bad thing?
weird how Avellone games always get this defense but when you bring up dogshit like Aliens Colonial Marines or Bioshock Infinite it's suddenly totally different and not at all the same
considering Kreia is not in fact a bad thing, nor is grey morality in Star Wars unique to KOTOR2 Disney.
Grey morality isn't necessarily a bad thing, all we can say for sure is that Disney cocked it up.
Because the end product is still somewhat enjoyable, which they aren't. It goes from "what fucking retards" to " fuck, it could've been even better given more time".
That's because those games are garbage from start to end.
Unfinished games that have great moments and show promise will always be judged less harshly.
>the inventor of the bad thing, or the company that copies the bad thing?
One who copies bad thing commits more evil, because they already have seen that bad thing is bad, but still do it again. Inventor does not know (may not know) at time of inventing that thing they invent is bad, but copycat absolutely does.
That is, if we consider thing in question objectively, factually bad. And if it's not, then you should stop talking, your breath stinks of mouse semen.
Kreia is very based. She's one of the more talented Sith Lords for sure. Almost two decades on there's still people who think she has any kind of good intention or genuinely cared for you. In every single interaction from the beginning of the game till the very end, she is manipulating you. She's a Sith Lord.
she can care about you and manipulate you at the same time
>t.machiavelli
Yeah, the Exile is someone Kreia carefully cultivated from when they first met and whether you become the next Sith Lord or choose to become a better Jedi than the prior masters, she's internally proud of you regardless for becoming something more than what the Force would consign you to. She's fine with her plan failing so long as you carry her lessons with you and don't slip into the trappings of blind emotion or overzealous justice that the Sith and Jedi commonly fall into.
she actually hates if you fall to the dark side
I could've sworn it was influence-based, especially considering many Dark Side actions often require excess murder
I'm pretty sure you have to kill the Masters if you're dark side, and that's what triggers the "you have failed me, completely and utterly" speech. I might try to do a dark side/spare Masters run one of these days
Oh, that's what it was. I remember killing off the masters on a Light Side run because I wanted independence for Onderon and she still said she cared about the Exile when prompted to during the finale.
If that's the case, then the positive dialogue for sparing the masters should still trigger even when you've got high Dark Side alignment.
I thought it was just killing any of the jedi masters, because then she can't save you and give a lecture
Wrong, she's an evil cunt. She's trying to turn you into someone desperate for her approval so she can manipulate you easier, she needs you to not be a puppet to the Jedi or to your own desires so you can be a puppet for her instead. She's using you. She doesn't love you, she loves what she can use you to do, she doesn't care about you, she cares about how she can use you. She's fantastically written because people fall for it all these years later. She's the Sith Lord of lies and betrayal. Never forget that.
she literally doesn't want you to be a puppet for anyone, including her. She's training you to be something better than the Sith/Jedi dichotomy. The "kill the Force" plot is an elaborate suicide attempt because she hates that she's dependent on the Force.
Don't fall for her tricks, you're better than this.
Kreia loves you and cares deeply for you. Because she knows that you're the only who understands, because you are free to act without interference from the force. The Exile is able to wield the force as a tool, without being influenced in turn.
Apathy is death.
Kreia is what happens when you take the Sith Code that KOTOR1 introduced and made a character that actually tries to fulfill it, instead of being a cackling imbecilic cartoon villain like most Sith.
"Apathy is death."
>Do anything
>Influence with Kreia lost.
>he doesn't know
>Company releases an unfinished game full of bugs today
>People consider it a bad game
>Company released an unfinished and buggy game yesterday
>It is praised as the best game that has ever appeared on the face of the earth
Back in the day if you were rushing a game you still had to "complete" it like slapping a conclusion paragraph onto a school essay 4 pages short of the criteria.
Now people would shit out a game with no conclusion paragraph in the wrong font with spelling and grammar mistakes everywhere, still 4 pages short and written partially in Wingdings
>fundamentals good
>fundamentals bad
>i don't understand the difference
Frogposters remain retarded
kotor 1 is better
no, kotor 1 is dogshit
Kotor 1 is a good played-straight RPG approach to star wars. It's a serviceable game with a solid plot and progression, if predictable.
Kotor 2, while a little rough around the edges, has far better writing and more or less the same kind of gameplay.
1 is more true to star wars. the characters are better. the story is better. the light and sith choices are good. bioware at their peak.
the story is a copy-paste of every other Bioware story
All stories are derivative.
there's derivative and using a template
>the characters are better
Definitely not
>the story is better
Eh, Kotor 1 is very straight forward and unimaginative, but this is more subjective.
>the light and sith choices are good.
And this just shows you have not even played these games, unless it was 20 years ago. There's a reason one of the more popular mods for Kotor 1 is a dialogue one, that fixes the shitty dark side choices.
>shitty dark side choices
>'MOOOOOOOM!!! The video game is letting me play as Dick Dastardly instead of stirnerpilled gray moral relativist again!!!!!'
>NOOOOOOO, YOU CAN'T HAVE MULTIPLE OPTIONS IN YOUR GAMES!!! MY WRITERS ARE TOO SHITTY FOR THAT. ONLY LE HECKIN' EPIC OPTIONS DREW KARPYSHIN WROTE!
>reading comprehension
I had no idea this was a meme but it's not going to stop me from drinking that combo.
suck laser bug face
Dark side options are not "Stirnerpilled"
the problem isn't that you have that option, it's that you don't have ANY other dark side options, and it makes the characters in your party look like morons for staying with you every time you do. this shit applies to other games too. it's always paragon or evil bastard with no in between.
>bioware at their peak
I agree, they were mediocre and passable.
>1 is more true to star wars
1 is only more true to Star Wars in the lamest way. The story beats of Kotor 1 are literally the same beats as the trilogy movies (you're a nobody, you become a Jedi, there's a twist that shatters your perception of self, and you fight on a space station at the end for the fate of the galaxy, and it ends with being given a medal like the original movie), with some background philosophy being introduced in the prequel movies but that wasn't the central core. 2 is more about the philosophy and is therefore more true to Star Wars in a way that people didn't realize.
Also
>characters are better
No. Only Jolee and Carth are good. Imagine saying Juhani or T3 are good. Light and Sith choices are bad because none of your choices matter except joining or not Bastila at the end. And it's clear that light side route is the only one they planned because there's no reason for Dark Side route to fight on the Star Forge.
Being true to Star Wars isn't necessarily a good thing
Both are great. stop trying to start shit
Revan was literally better in KOTOR2 than he was in KOTOR1 and he didn't even appear on screen
yes
im triggered
KOTOR 2 was filled with shitty characters and boring scenarios. Obshitian fucked up everything good that BioWare had cultivated with the first game.
unsurprisingly, they fucked up THE EXACT SAME WAY with Memeout: nuVegass years later so NPCs could continue meming about these awful gayms.
The force is cool when you actually listen to what they say it is in the movies: an energy force which is an amalgam of all life, it has a nearly indecipherable will as it is the will of all living things which drives it. It transcends time so those who are sensitive to it could peer into the mess of billions of minds just to get a hint at what is to come. The idea that the light and dark are balanced when equal is retarded and goes against the very movies. The force desires the light, good. The majority which fuel it want peace, want serenity. The sith, the dark side, is a cancer which sucks away at this energy to fuel their power rather than live in line with it. It is an unknowable god-like entity, and EU fags never understood that. To them its
>DUDE BALANCE LIKE MY EPIC EASTERN RELIGIONS
>DUDE JUST FOLLOW SOME GOOD GUY RULES AND BAD GUY RULES AND YOU GET BOTH POWERS
It's inherently cringe, no matter how hard they try to act like they understand the occultism behind it
You got filtered.
>DUDE JUST FOLLOW SOME GOOD GUY RULES AND BAD GUY RULES AND YOU GET BOTH POWERS
Kotor 2 never argues for this mentality, in fact, it argues against this cringe.
>DUDE BALANCE LIKE MY EPIC EASTERN RELIGIONS
Balance is not defined in Kotor 2 to be a ying yang situation. You got filtered so hard, you feel the need to invent these scenarios.
Don't care didn't even play them
i know who you are, you spout this in every star wars thread.
>he thinks the force is some unintelligent natural force instead of literally just God
NGMI
considering that's how Yoda describes in ESB, yeah, I do think that
Reminder that Yoda gave Luke advice that would have doomed the whole galaxy had he tried to follow it (telling him to kill his father) AND presided over the events that led to the fall of the Jedi Order and ascension of the Sith into galactic power they hadn't had for thousands of years.
He was a good teacher and knew shit but he's not an authoritative source on the nature of reality.
You're retarded in multiple ways. Suffice it to say that the Force being a stand-in for God is about as explicit as subtext can be. It is shown to be intelligent, purposeful, and personally involved in the world. Any other explanation would just be God by another name.
Prequels are not canon.
>Force being a stand-in for God is about as explicit as subtext can be. It is shown to be intelligent, purposeful, and personally involved in the world
another case of severe amerimutt brainrot
Not an argument, disregarded.
Not going to argue with smooth brained, no friction, glass brain
I know, your ego wouldn't be able to take being wrong.
sounds like projection from slippery brain
That literally came out of George Lucas' mouth in an interview. Considering that he borrowed heavily from established anthropology in which deistic creation is present in virtually every culture you are saying that because you personally hate it and nothing more.
George has said a lot of things
>Reminder that Yoda gave Luke advice that would have doomed the whole galaxy had he tried to follow it (telling him to kill his father)
what the fuck
no killing Vader would have been a good thing. even risking Luke turning is still worth trying to remove Vader/Palpy.
It wasn't necessary and it shows that Yoda wasn't perfectly in tune with the Force. He had been given prophecy but didn't trust it, and would have allowed the continued survival of the Sith had his advice been followed.
>continued survival of the Sith had...
the Sith cannot be erased. the force exists within all life and is telling different people different things.
>sith=dark side
Don't be dumb.
>Reminder that Yoda gave Luke advice that would have doomed the whole galaxy had he tried to follow it (telling him to kill his father)
No he didn't. He said Luke had to CONFRONT Vader because Luke HAD to face temptation from the Dark Side and not succumb in order to finally embody the ways of the Jedi.
>literally can't imagine a non-deistic creation origin
amerimutt brainrot
The Force as God would be more pantheism anon.
WHY AREN'T YOU EVIL
I heard more about Kreia's philosophy on the internet that from what she actually says in the game. I don't remember her saying anything on par with OP's pic. Am I missing something?
I don't remember anything Kreia says either because she's a woman and it doesn't matter
OP's pic isn't Kreia saying it, it's depicting "the force" as saying it.
Who cares? I just wanted to fuck her
Ill make that granny believe in the force again, with my cock
From what I've seen, Kreia looks like a Bene Gesserit from Dune copy pasted into a Jedi Role without actually thinking about how different the two are.
not really. The Bene Gesserit are all about behind-the-scenes manipulation to control humanity. Kreia, depending on your interpretation, either wants to burn down everything to free the galaxy from the shackles of the Force, or destroy the Jedi and the Sith so her apprentice can create a new Order from the ashes based on her teachings of freedom from control.
Hm, guess I should finish KOTOR.
probably a good idea before you hop into discussions about KOTOR
>freedom from control
>controls and manipulates you constantly
Fucking women logic
I like a woman who has suffered... indignities...
>iykwim
My favorite part of this game was not han solo imaging hot sex scenes in his head to keep Kreia from reading his mind.
>alright give the beggar money
>DON'T GIVE THE BEGGAR MONEY
>OOOOOOOOOOOOOO
kotor is the goysloppiest of goyslops
(You)
Why wasn't Mission Vao a romance option? I hope they change that in the remake.
built exclusively for BWC big wookiee cock
>Why wasn't Mission Vao a romance option?
They had to fight to the bitter end to make her look attractive at all. Her being a romance option would have been a step too far.
>They had to fight to the bitter end to make her look attractive at all
why?
Check in the archive for kotor threads, there is this picture with dev note which shows two versions of Mission's face and why they decided to make her more beautiful
She was 17 and 3/4 you SICK FUCK
Because she's blue.
da ba de da ba dai
>DUDE good and evil are just different sides of the coin that is BALANCE so if you kill all the psychotic murdering tyrants more will just APPEAR because that's what BALANCE means
completely retarded and non-canon.
>evil Force users in KotOR2
>great philosopher-kings (and queens) who rule with iron fist and seek to uncover the secrets of the cosmos and prove the superiority of their philosophy
>evil Force users in other media
>grrr I’m angry and bad
philosopher-kings (and queens) who rule with iron fist and seek to uncover the secrets of the cosmos and prove the superiority of their philosophy
Palpatine is exactly this though.
I like Palpatine, but I really dislike the way he is depicted as infallible by so much of the secondary media and fans. He lost to Mace Windu, he attempted to torture Luke to death while exposing himself to Vader. He isn't perfect.
And he won to almost everyone else.
Only a couple force users managed to best him.
He's not that infallible in other media, and ultimately loses.
>He lost to Mace Windu,
Stopped reading. You know nothing.
>b-buh muh George
Don't care. George Lucas is not a reliable authority on Star Wars.
ol' Sheev absolutely would've bit it if Anakin was five minutes slower
I like Palpy but they don't explore that side enough in the movies and according to Lucas dark side is bad and wrong dumb
Honestly the KotoR games were too good and put Lucas to shame.
the force in nuWars
>everyone is unique and special 🙂
Can you kill midichlorians with a strong antibiotic?
they live inside all cells. it would have to be more like a vaccine
technically yes, there are drugs in the SW universe that can kill the midichlorians (death sticks) or suppresses them.
Also viruses if you believe in the theory regarding the fall of the Rataka.
Name a bigger pleb filter character, you really can't.
>Kreia dickriders are commies
I always had a suHispanicion, but I never suspected they'd be dumb enough to espouse Posadism.
The inability to entertain hypotheticals is a sign of low intelligence.
Me ne frego.
Who is in the right Ganker?
Both are acceptable philosophies if people commit to them instead of taking shortcuts. Bad Sith are cackling cartoon villains who think moar powah makes them better, but bad Jedi are people who try to suppress their feelings and grow detached from reality instead of working through their emotions normally. Bad Sith let the Force chain them as a crutch, bad Jedi bottle the chaos instead of resolving it.
>most successful Sith of all time is a cackling cartoon villain
hmmm...
CAKE IS A LIE, THERE IS ONLY PIE
THROUGH PIE I GAIN CARBS
THROUGH CARBS I GAIN WEIGHT
THROUGH WEIGHT I GAIN WIDTH
THROUGH WIDTH, MY BELT BUCKLE IS BROKEN
THE FORCE SHALL FEED ME
The Jedi are correct by being adherent to how the Force demands, but the Sith are more humane yet are self-destructive.
>the Force sets you free while chaining you to the desire for more power
It's always funny.
Considering most characters who represent 'goodness' actually follow the right, I'd say the Sith code is closer to being correct (but still wrong because being a edgelord tru-libertarian isn't the only way to "freedom")
>Considering most characters who represent 'goodness' actually follow the right
dont actually*
Seriously, who among the Jedi other than them in their most corruptable periods actually believes in 'no emotion'?
It's not about not having emotions, it's about not letting emotions dictate your decisions and actions
The importance placed in morality and decision-making is based in emotion. You can't be attached to an ideal like peace without some form of attachment.
If you're making purely non-emotional decisions, what are they in service of? You could say a greater good, but what other than one's own personal, emotional love for good and hate for evil can define what the greater good even is?
So not only are emotions important in correct decision-making, I'd even say they're a more important concept than peace. For what they're going for a better philosophy would be
>there is no instability, there is only composure
The valuable parts of each can be reconciled.
How the fuck do you even play kotor1 in 2023?
What a fucking mess it freaks out over widescreen
No she's deliberately written to be wrong and if you have an IQ of over 95 you can see you verbally destroy her in the discussions on the ship. This is reflected in the game by giving you extra power for being hardline Jedi or Sith rather than some middling contrarian.
The problem is that those godlike powers literally enforce it. You're emotions have reflections and reactions and it will effect you and the other around you. It's not even a difference of good vs evil it's a difference of balance. Doing good things in an unbalanced way will have reactive effects and eventually those ideals will become corrupted. And if you take the assumption that you have the power thus decide what is right than you already fell.
The problem with KOTOR2 feels like whatever they were trying to go with wasn't allowed by Lucas Arts.
I always got the impression the big issue with the KOTOR series is that a lot of people think the Jedi are wrong to not be involved int he mandalorian wars. Then the jedi fucking say this shit:
>actually following the jedi orders would have made things better!
???? okay? HOW? No one ever says how or explain the jedi's plan you're just meant to assume they were right. Which is why KOTOR2 almost feels like a direct criticism of the first game... until a certain point when it just has to collapse back into the the universe's rigid philosophy. It was entirely limited by the IP itself.
The force is the same in all conceptions, Kreia did not say anything that anyone keen didn't notice, and her own interpretation is ultimately flawed, and she herself is a sad old woman that was stuck tying up knots of Revan's trailblaze as she walks to her preemptive loss.
And Midichlorians are fine, too.
Kotor is gay Millenial writing. The force is cool space wizard magic meant to be used in a battle of good vs evil.
in hindsight it was good that the Avellone-verse was axed, given that he work on Fallen Order is just overrated to Kotor 2
I can guarantee all he did for Fallen Order was write Malicos's backstory
Kreia couldn't have won, canons won't let it.
But canon was ruined later, so ironically it might have been a better option.
I miss the coolest Luke.
>But canon was ruined later
the entire reason KOTOR was such a distant prequel is because they didn't want to deal with canon they already considered ruined
they just wanted more creative freedom
I just want the pretzels, see.
W E A K
>one day the exile will help me BECOME a pretzel
https://vocaroo.com/19ltgW2WTsZu
MALACHOR V MADE ME WHAT I AM
Kreia will always be the most based female written. Also, I'm sick and tire of the force, there needs to be a game where you are a regular man that takes down both Jedi and Sith with creative ways. That will never happen since the Star War kids need their baby moralfag stories.
good news anon, the monkey paw has granted your wish
also SWTOR did that with the blaster classes
>yfw Outlaws will be so shit, people will play Swtor Smuggler class story.
Ew! What the fuck is that. At least she has '80's hair which is honestly nice. I just saw a little bit of gameplay and this shit reeks of Sony-movie games. She never shuts the fuck up, and the game looks linear and easy as hell.
It'll just be a carbon copy of every other Ubisoft open world game
>female protag
Yikes.
ngl she's cute
I just noticed her hair is basically ANH Luke's but brown
She is Max Stirner In Space.
>'the purpose of pedagogy is not to pass on data, but to strengthen individuality'
>says guy who will vitriolically disagree with every major line of thought of the time, but has nothing to really contribute to philosophy at large himself
whether you think that's based or cringe really depends on you
Max was based as hell, I remember reading an article on Counter-Currents on how he truly defeated philosophy. Even philosophers of his time were seething at him. Another based one was Ragnar Redbeard.
Cast them
>people still think kotor 2 is about a grey mortality
You homosexuals so fucking stupid its unbelievable. The game is about how your actions has consequences. Even Kreia wants you to rebuild a new Jedi order without the flaws of the old one
It's about both and more. So shut the fuck up
The only grey mortality in the game is just Revan actions
It took me 15 years before I noticed that the other Handmaidens weren't Atris's children. I had always thought 'the' Handmaiden was special because she was the only one that wasn't blood related.
The echani shares the same father and mother other than the handmaiden herself. Her mother is Arren Kae and if she's Kreia then Atris having her children would be... weird
What was the original plan for KOTOR3 again? IIRC it was supposed to be developed byt Obsidian too
Something about the Exile ans Revan fighting the True Sith (originally being Naga Sadow Sith Empire I think.) And also HK was strap to the back of the Exile too. Either way, it's still gotta be better than the "kotor 3" we got
>Either way, it's still gotta be better than the "kotor 3" we got
Somehow SWTOR was even worse
>turns the exile into a Revan fangirl
>dies fucking stupidly
>Revan knowing about the thot bomb
>could've easily lie to Scourge and make Dromund Kass into a waste land like Ruusan
>also knew about the Foundry, aka another Star Forge
>could've attained unlimited power and immorality from said thot bomb
>used said powers to kill the other forms of the Sith Emperor
Did the author even play kotor 2?
Kreia also said that ancient sith lords were very powerful and would otk later sith like Sion and Nihilus. Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow could easily destroy life, planets, stars, etc with the force alone.
With how powerful both characters are at the ending of their games, I think they can take on the Sith Emperor. I mean Kreia was training the Exile to fight the True Sith
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-31-fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side
No. An end goal of galaxy wide catastrophic effects that could probably end up maiming or even killing species that depend on the force just for muh freedoms and would just lead to a galaxy that's probably just as conflict prone even without space wizards is not based.
Star Wars is pretty fucking retarded.
Kreia was based and I thought, for sure, that they were going to steal her schtick for Snoke.
Like I thought the whole idea of the second movie that they were setting up was that he was the last Sith Master and him and Luke, the last Jedi Master, had made a pact of sorts not to make more padawans/initiates and they both broke it in an attempt to stab each other in the back.
nah I ask too much of this fucking franchise
It's the "The Last Jedi" of Star Wars video games
>It's the "The Last Jedi"
No, it's Empire for sure of the games.
An unfinished game hyped up massively by its fanbase because the concepts and ideas were top notch at the time for its medium.
by what logic is Empire unfinished
Just ends abruptly after Cloud City with nothing resolved. Then in the next movie we're back on Tatooine of all places.
it doesn't end abruptly, it has a rising action, a climax, and a denouement. Perfectly sound story structure.
>Then in the next movie we're back on Tatooine of all places.
And it's the best part of that entire movie.
It's stupid. There was no reason why Jabba's palace should have been there. Han was trying to avoid him in a new hope, why would he be on the same planet? They should have come up with a different location for the Jabba's Palace act.
>And it's the best part of that entire movie.
True though. I can't even remember what happened after then. They escape on the sand skimmer, then there's somehow a lot of fucking around, then it's ewoks and the throne room.
Do you ever get your saber back from Atris?
RCM gives it to you after Handmaiden BTFOs her
>all this talk
>still die like a chump
Should have more spent training you old hag
She was cringe.
I will always be apathetic towards moral relativism.
Now if you'll excuse me I have a loading ramp to charge up.
this shit is so boring.
Such a waste of time for both gamers and developers
The most insulting part is that they keep it alive
KOTOR 2 was basically Disney’s Star Wars before the buy out. Utter tripe. People who don’t get something as black and white as Star Wars and try to add needless “subversion” to it are retards.
>needless “subversion”
First of all, KOTOR2's subversion was very much needed, necessary even
Second, EU did that way before KOTOR2
She is up to no good.
What were they thinking?
Isn't the suit going fast a TSLRCM thing? I have vague memory of being annoyed by it being slow, but I haven't played without the mod in ages.
Dunno about going fast, but the goofy animation was always there
I think it was slow underwater in KOTOR 1, then the same model sped up to sonic speed for a spacesuit in KOTOR 2. I played both version without mods.
It's supposed to be slow, and was slow on old console and pc versions. It's faster now because of modern systems, probably tied to framerate.
Somebody at Obsidian saw how slow and tedious the underwater bits on Manaan were and tried to fix it
Reminder that if Qui-gon hadn't been killed he would have let Anakin save his mom before she was killed and encouraged him to find a way to save Padme without falling to the dark side.
Obi-wan fucked up and he knew it.
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Qui-Gon was also better equipped to be Anakin's father figure than Obi-Wan, who could only ever be an older brother. Leaving the father figure position open to be wormed into by Creamy Sheev.
>find the most powerful force user that's ever lived
>try to train him like normal and pretend he's not special
>wonder why he becomes a sith mass shooter
what the dark side does to a motherfucker
Cute korean girls!
left cringe
right real and true to georges vision
i dunno if the pic is accurate, it might be if you take disneywars seriously but i don't remember the game ever implying that the force itself is directly disturbing the balance.
KOTOR2 isn't real Star Wars. Fuck off, Avellone.
>KOTOR2 isn't real Star Wars.
And this is the good thing
>He didn’t watch clone wars 2003
Is there the list of mods or an all-in-one pack for KOTOR2? And where do you get the mods for the GOG version?
as far as i know the gog version never got the modernization update from aspyr so you'd have to use archive.org to download shit from like 2016 or 2017
All you need with the aspyr version is TSLRCM, widescreen ui stretch fix and may be some high res skybox mods if you want them. I also use ez pazaak mod because I can't be bothered to do it legit for the 23543th time.
Kreia is the worst.
Old women characters always suck.