What is the House of Leaves of video games?

What is the House of Leaves of video games?

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  1. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Fossil Fighters Champions

  2. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Something extremely popular and normalgay that people have somehow convinced themselves is niche -- Souls garbage fits.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      You sure are fricking mad over a book.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Omori fits more

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Probably the Middens trilogy.

      >extremely popular
      I can count the number of people aware of even the basics of House of Leaves or the Familiar on my fricking hands with fingers left over. Get fricked.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >151k ratings on goodreads
        It's very, very popular.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          It's popular the way Earthbound is popular. Everyone knows it, but how many people have actually experienced it front to back?

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          It's popular sure, but there are very few who have actually READ it all the way through. They just know the name.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Dune has over a million, Twilight has over 5 million, and Harry Potter has over 8 million. 150k is nothing

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Howdy, newbie.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          >newbie
          I have almost certainly been here longer than you, board tourist.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Familiar is hot garbage.
        50 Year Sword is great because it doesn't overstay its welcome. Only Revolutions is a really cool gimmick that is usually underwhelming but has occasional sections of genuinely great verse. House of Leaves is solid.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      I heard one of the Silent Hills was based on it, but I only played the first two and they certainly weren't

      [...]

      >>>/qa/

      I think that I've read 4/5 of the book until they left the house and I just dropped it.
      Don't remember who recommended it to me when I said that I loved note-taking in old CRPGs and LaMulana but I just got what seemed like a Stephen King-like horror novel.
      I don't remember any details about the story either, just the crippled black dude and someone dying.

      >I think that I've read 4/5 of the book until they left the house and I just dropped it.
      Navidson goes back

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Undertale fits better

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >Something extremely popular and normalgay that people have somehow convinced themselves is niche -- Souls garbage fits.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      they hated him because he spoke the truth

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        amen

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Also applies to Silent Hill

  3. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Umineko

  4. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Self-indulgent overstuffed bullshit?
    Kojimbo games.

  5. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    I think that I've read 4/5 of the book until they left the house and I just dropped it.
    Don't remember who recommended it to me when I said that I loved note-taking in old CRPGs and LaMulana but I just got what seemed like a Stephen King-like horror novel.
    I don't remember any details about the story either, just the crippled black dude and someone dying.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      but it's not a horror novel, it's a love story

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Frankly everything besides the mystique of the house was completely uninteresting. It really didn't need to follow the sex life of some random schmuck

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >4/5 of the book
      whyd you quit there? the rest of the pages are blank lmao

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Danielewski doesn’t get enough credit for what he did with the formatting in that book. It’s seriously fricking smart writing and everyone just assumes it’s weird for the sake of weird.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          lets be fair, some of it is weird for the sake of it.

          He more or less concludes it’s fake. But, at the end of the book, there’s “contrary evidence” (supplied by either Truant or the editors, I forget which) indicating variously that either the Navidson Record or the House itself existed.

          oh right i always forget about the editor footnotes. they were definitely the ones claiming fairly early that they couldnt find any evidence of the navidsons. ill do a quick skim of the end because i dont remember the contrary evidence part.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >some of it is weird for the sake of it
            I think he runs a little too far with the whole “everything pertaining to a minotaur is colored red and strikethrough’d” and always putting the worde “House” in blue, but it’s not a huge distraction

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            Check out “Appendix III: Contrary Evidence”

            • 2 years ago
              Anonymous

              youre right. i forgot all about the fullpage pictures because i guess i just spent less time on them. interesting. i probably should re-read it soon.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          >Danielewski doesn’t get enough credit for what he did with the formatting in that book.
          Most critics are so far up their own ass they won't try to put in any thought beyond shallow knee-jerk reactions. The book was incredibly well written and I definitely recommend it to anyone who's even slightly interested in a weird book.
          It's not a horror or love story to me. It's more psychological.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It's weird fusion of horror and general psychological/existential theming, which continues into Only Revolutions and the Familiar. Danielewski was clearly trying to form a series of connections between each and tie them all into the Familiar, but Season 2 never happened so we didn't get to see what would come of that.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          The picture that in your dreams part unironically gave me a shot of adrenaline. Only time a book has ever managed to do that.

  6. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    I picked up this book in an attempt to strike up conversation with a chick I was into
    It didn't work

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Did you like the book at least?

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        I made it about halfway through; it was okay
        Though i'm not much of a reader so i got bored

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Then why are you posting the chad pic?

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        cause later on i found her on tinder with her hair all shaved off, asking for a poly relationship
        in short, bullet dodged

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        respect the guy for shooting his shot regardless of the outcome

  7. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    A videogame that uses metafiction to play with the structure of a video game, and is sorta pretentious?

    The Beginner’s Guide, maybe?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >the beginner's guide
      >only "sorta" pretentious
      lol

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        It is only sorta pretentious. It’s doing something unique and interesting; it’s not AS unique and interesting as it seems to think it is, but it’s not like it’s utterly cliche and acting like it’s profound.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      I feel like House of Leaves is sorta anti-pretentious though? The writing seems to be taking the piss out of Academia at multiple points and the narrative doesn't draw undue attention to itself or its meta narrative elements in a "haha bet you can't figure this out" kinda way.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >The writing seems to be taking the piss out of Academia at multiple points
        I love all the pointless fake footnotes and references that contribute absolutely nothing and say nothing.

  8. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Why didn't they just leave the house after the weird stuff starts happening?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Some tried. Redwood still got them.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      It was an expensive house, you know?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      The same reason Truant keeps working on the book despite the paranoia. Curiosity.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        and mental illness.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Because of two reasons:
      1. They think that it is merely unusual, not dangerous.
      2. Houses are fairly difficult to just leave at the drop of a hat. You're kind of invested.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >Why didn't they just leave the house after the weird stuff starts happening?
      Would you?

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        Leaving when the house turns out to be an eldritch abomination is generally a pretty wise idea.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          That doesn't sound like a 'no' to me

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Pussy

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      The house made them stupid

  9. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Marathon Infinity

  10. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Does this book have an actual meaning I didn't get or is it just a story about a whiny homosexual being a whiny homosexual?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      The later, it's supposed to be a mirror for the reader so he can feel embarrassed if he act like Holden

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      It’s a book about alienation and frustration, and how kind-hearted people get shaped by an impersonal society into shiftless cynics and buttholes. It’s telling that most people’s interpretation of Caulfield is as a whiny c**t, when his inner monologue reveals him to be extremely sympathetic and compassionate and it’s meant to stand in contrast to his outwardly tantrum-throwing behavior.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      It's about how a society that openly doesn't give a frick about anybody in turn makes everyone into self-centered dickheads

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Holden raped his sister

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      When we read this in high school, we had an assignment to write a continuation after the ending. I wrote about Holden at the end of his life in a nursing home - I don't remember the specifics but I do remember him climbing onto the roof and killing himself. My teacher really liked it.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      It's about him raping his sister, Phoebe.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      It's just says Kill John Lennon for 277 pages.

  11. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Cruelty squad

  12. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Who is the Evan Dara of vidya?

  13. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    reminder that everything written from Johnny's perspective is actually written by his insane mother as an imagined life for her son that died in infancy

    "ecce puer"

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      its been a few years since i read it but im pretty sure this is bullshit. in the context of the story, the navidsons are the only fictional characters.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        It’s not even entirely clear that the Navidsons are fictional. It MAY be that the Navidson Record is Zampano’s invention, but Johnny supplies at least some evidence that it was real.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          i remember it being very clear that johnny tried to find evidence of the navidsons but couldnt. but because johnny is johnny, it didnt really stop him from wanting to believe it.

          i cant tell if im misremembering or you are.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            He more or less concludes it’s fake. But, at the end of the book, there’s “contrary evidence” (supplied by either Truant or the editors, I forget which) indicating variously that either the Navidson Record or the House itself existed.

            • 2 years ago
              Anonymous

              Stanley Parable

              >Jack Truant didn't find evidence so the house isn't real
              >Jack Truant
              || Jack Truant isn't real, the house is, and his schizophrenic mother imagined his life ||

              • 2 years ago
                Anonymous

                you need to go back

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          its been a few years since i read it but im pretty sure this is bullshit. in the context of the story, the navidsons are the only fictional characters.

          one of Pelafina's letters has a secret message that reads "Dear Zampano, who did you lose?" So either Johnny wrote all those letters or Pelafina constructed the entire thing.

          That silent hill wiki that devolves into a foreskin conspiracy.

          This guy gets it.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It seems more likely that Johnny made up Pelafina’s letters.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Pelafina constructed the entire thing.
            This, Johnny died when he was very young (he's the child that flatlines in that one story), after that Pelafina went full schizo and , as she said she would, she wrote Johnny a story, both Zampano and Johnny are different versions of the same character, that's why Johnny fricks all the girls that helped Zampano

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Further complicating things is that Johnny, by his own admission, lies about shit.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      The writing is 7/10, you have to enjoy the format to enjoy the book. I personally found it fun to read.

      There's enough inconsistency in everything that you could make an argument for anything you wanted.
      Johnny's mom and Zampino mention each other, which shouldn't be possible. Johnny's mom also has similarities to Navidson's wife.

  14. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Bro...bro...they go down a spiral staircase and the words are printed in a spiral! Craziest shit I've ever seen!

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      See, this is what I’m talkin about. People don’t understand what’s being done with the formatting. It’s fricking brilliant and you’re a goddamn pleb for reading it at a surface level.

      The only thing that’s kinda pointless is the use of colors in the font.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        >he didn’t understand the use of colors in the fonts
        I would just hang myself tbqhwy

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          Truant says he’s been coloring font in Zampano’s text just because. That’s basically what it amounts to.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >taking anything Truant says as fact
            NGMI

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            >Truant says
            Johnny isn't real. He never was. Only Zampano is "real". He made up the Navidson records as an allegory for his life. He lost his son, Johnny is the fictional son he never had. Johnny is the Nidhoggr eating away at the roots of the tree of life - Zampano's life.

  15. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    That silent hill wiki that devolves into a foreskin conspiracy.

  16. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    IMSCARED or Anatomy or any horror game that incorporates meta elements outside the game itself for spooks

  17. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >awful
    >defined by genre and medium frickery
    >despite 2deep4u trappings, inexplicably popular among normie crowds
    I'm not sure there is a House of Leaves of video games.

  18. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Redwood did literally nothing wrong. The Navidsons deserved it.

  19. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    brutal legend
    >half the game is good
    >half the game sucks and you skip it

  20. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >Ahhhhh is that an empty page?! Help me Black personman I'm going insane!
    It's the millennial hipster equivalent of zoomers freaking out over muh liminal spaces.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      those pages aren't empty

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Lrn2pacing you fricking dunce. Authors work hard to control pacing via descriptive language; a book can be slowed down with long, flowering descriptions of scenery. It can be accelerated with rapid sequences of events. You can’t do that when the subject of your book is a guy walking/running through a smooth, pitch black maze.

      What Danielewski is doing with labyrinths of footnotes is slowing the reader down; he’s communicating the eternity of wandering, but he can’t do it by spending ages meditating on scenery and background events, so he starts listing all of the things NOT contained in the halls. When he wants to bring Navidson’s race through the house to an accelerating climax, he reduces it to 5-10 words per page to make the reader feel like he’s flying through it; suddenly, the sense that the adventure must be nowhere near over starts evaporating as huge chunks of the book disappear in seconds.

      It’s a way of manipulating the reader’s sense of time in the story by speeding and slowing the rate at which they read the book ITSELF because words can’t be used to pad and unpad the events, since there’s very little to actually say about the events and the format precludes any “internal monologue” of the characters affected.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        That's fricking gay as frick because it's being protrayed through a medium that is not literature.
        At best, it's something like a comic book.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          What do you think literature is, moron?

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          >That's fricking gay as frick
          Low IQ response

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        The average Gankertard probably hasn't read a book in the last 5 years that a teacher didn't assign them. I appreciate your post though

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          I read books because I played Black Souls and was like cool books.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            very Ganker of you

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        great post

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >'creativity and change upset me, popularity challenges me'
      sad little man

  21. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Who are the best characters in all of Danielewski's expanded meta-cosmos and why are they the NarCons.

  22. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    It tickles me that Bret Easton Ellis likes house of leaves, because Johnny Truant's sections tap into the same kind of hedonistic and depressive, sex and drug fantasies as Ellis's own novels.

  23. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    what is the Dragonlance Chronicles of vidya?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Neverwinter

  24. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    The navidson family part is the only good part of the book and more than half of it is spent on some drug-addicted homosexual.

  25. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    I can't think of any vidya made by israelites and formatted like the Talmud.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Probably because you can't think at all.

  26. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >game protagonist is literally you

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >you have to love your mother because...WELL YOU JUST HAVE TO OK!
      Camus is a momma's boy homosexual.
      t. Kafka Gang

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        not the message of the book at all btw

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          The message is be yourself.

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            In some extremely reductive sense I guess that's partly accurate.

            • 2 years ago
              Anonymous

              lol I haven't even read the book. I was just shit posting. It actually is the message?

              • 2 years ago
                Anonymous

                No. Like I said if you're being maximally reductive then it's almost what the message is, but no one would take you seriously if that's what you said the message was. "It is what it is" is a more accurate way of reducing the message to the simplest description possible.

              • 2 years ago
                Anonymous

                That probably applies to most books

                Anyone wanna talk about Three Body Problem trilogy and how the upcoming Netflix adaptation is gonna be a disaster?

              • 2 years ago
                Anonymous

                Those books seem dumb. I looked into them and the aliens never show up. Shit book about humans on a normal earth talking. Gay and shitty like that Contact movie where the alien was her dad.

              • 2 years ago
                Anonymous

                low iq response

              • 2 years ago
                Anonymous

                >That probably applies to most books
                Definitely not in the way that it applies to the stranger.

              • 2 years ago
                Anonymous

                Chink propaganda made by the GoT hacks? That's a big cringe from me.

              • 2 years ago
                Anonymous

                I mean, those books are not at all a good look for the ccp
                they shit canned their own adaptation when it was 90% done
                then poisoned the president of the chink film company that sold the rights to netflix

  27. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >once ask what the Cruelty Squad of literature is
    >someone says pic rel
    I've read shitposts from /x/ shizos more coherent than this book. still good though

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >Game uses concepts and ideas of very specific literary works and even references those works in game lore and dialogue.
      >People still recommending shit that has absolutely nothing but the most superficial similarities.

      Read Bataille.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >mfw reading his other books
      >mfw finding out its literally a shared universe with francis e dec
      >mfw watching this

  28. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    In terms of quality: Disco Elysium. Not even memeing.

    In terms of gameplay: Probably some shitty "liminal spaces" game.

  29. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    what's the savage detectives of vidya?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Chespirito wrote books?

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        different spic

  30. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Are the memes that the book is impossible to read in ebook form true and it has to be paperback or can I just grab the ebook?

  31. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    More like House of Snooze

  32. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    ooooohh so a house is sort of like an open book upside down and the leaves are the pages, smart!

  33. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Probably the Stanley Parable or Inscryption. Both are nontraditional storytelling through their respective mediums and deal with mental illness

  34. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Stanley Parable

  35. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >reccomended this book from a guy I watch on youtube
    >found a lot of my favorites from him. House of leaves and a lot of Mishima
    >he reccomends Pic related
    >had to take a break because of what happens half way through

    Dammit I love you Better than Food. And I loved this book. But was the scene where he kills his infant son after getting back from Vietnam

    Yet it was unironically one of the best books I've ever read. Up there with Blood Meridian and Runaway Horses.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >Better than Food
      Based. Only book channel worth a shit.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >Blood Meridian
      Is that actually good or is it just a Ganker meme?

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        its good

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        It's unironically probably the best written book of the last 40 years.

        It's not exactly a commitment and will have you thinking about it months after finishing it.

        Read The Road or Child of God before though. Or just watch No Country for Old Men. It ruined every other McCarthy novel.

        • 2 years ago
          Anonymous

          >Read The Road or Child of God before though
          Why?

          • 2 years ago
            Anonymous

            It ruins every other book by him. It's so good nothing else compares.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        I found it quite hard to get through (particularly given the complete disregard for punctuation and dialogue signifiers) but it's probably the best written thing I've ever read.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        it's good
        like anything it depends on your diet.. if you don't read literature then probably not
        it's definitely mccarthy's best work, altho my favourite is suttree

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >Mishima
      I hated Confessions of a Mask. Are any of his other books any good and not gay erotica?

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        I really enjoyed Sea of Fertility and Temple of the Golden Pavillion.

        He's not for everyone. But if anything his own story and how it sort of blends with everything he's wrote is interesting enough to give some of his other books a shot.

        Check out "star" by him. You can read it in a sitting.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        They're all gay erotica in a sense

  36. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    What's the video game equivalent of this? (as in, what is the greatest game of all time)

  37. 2 years ago
    Anonymous
  38. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    I feel like I got fricking robbed reading this shit on as an ebook. I didn't realize it had schizo formatting until years later and I'm sure that added to it a bunch. Still, that fake documentary was unsettling as frick. Something about the house getting slightly larger messed with me.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      Frick buying a book. I'm going to read it on my phone and hate it.

      • 2 years ago
        Anonymous

        I can't imagine reading shit on a phone, even a phablet would be too small. My Paperwhite is one of the best purchases I've made in the past few years.

  39. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Finished reading this a while back and I think about it a lot. That last page completely re-contextualized how I saw things.
    The house is navy, thus all the 'house' words are blue. Navy blue har har, but more than that the Yggdrasil connection was strong. Navy lost and eye and hung himself from the tree/house like Odin and gained runes/knowledge from it. Basically he had an introspective moment and found what's truly valuable to him.
    Another part that was wicked was how Jonny Truant was never real. He's the fictional son of Zampano, the real son died shortly after he was born.

  40. 2 years ago
    Anonymous
  41. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    I immediately think of Snowing when I hear of this book.

  42. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    It's pretty much just a boring creepypasta in book form so I guess Slender or that SCP game or some other similar trash.

  43. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Nobody's gonna say Superliminal?

  44. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Yume Nikki

  45. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    The Navidson House stuff was good, but the Johnny Truant parts were garbage.

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      I thought both parts of the story were equally good. the part with him writing about recovering only to reveal he was lying was really neat. and the ending was amazing. really just a great book

  46. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    What is the Galliker's Blue Raspberry Drink of video games?

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      ratz instagib

    • 2 years ago
      Anonymous

      >kinda nasty and artificial-tasting but sometimes it's just what you're craving because you're a fricking idiot who wants to ruin themselves
      deckbuilder roguelikes

  47. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    Shadow of Memories

  48. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    The only real choice

  49. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    No Man's Sky, unironically. The deep lore has some interesting meta-narrative bits that reminded me of House of Leaves, repeating elements and the like.

    Plus there's something to be said about the galaxy constantly changing and regenerating itself when you look away for long enough.

  50. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >didn't actually eat his liver
    I was very disappointed. Any books you would recommend if I liked this one?

  51. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    I liked the book and it was a bit 2deep4u with its themes but I'll say Silent Hill 2 gave me the closest feeling to this book. Both even had a labyrinth.

  52. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    The book was fun. It’s not perfect, but at least tries and mostly succeeds at bei by different. Better than other schizocore like what Joyce shat out

  53. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    whats the john dies at the end of video games?

  54. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    YIIK is directly inspired by House of Leaves and between the unreliable narrator and the ONISM cipher, it definitely shows it.

  55. 2 years ago
    Anonymous

    >Ganker is better at discussing books than it is at video games
    I mean, low bar to clear, but still

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