>"Yep, looks like we blew our best spells on that 'super tough' encounter to blow it out of the water. We'll head back outside, take the rest of the day off, and return the next morning. It's been only one fight, but better safe than sorry."
Your move, GM?
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>"Alright. Each of you consumes one ration and..." *rolls dice* "don't have a random encounter in the night. What now?"
Can I cast healing touch on a berry to give it the effects of goodberry and hand that out to the party instead?
Sorry, it was a chaotic evilberry. You all have violent, alignment altering diarrhea
"Why are we playing a game that gives players options to outright neuter aspects of gameplay?"
Is this actually an issue? I've always played shit like WFRP where there aren't any spell slots, so the concept of "i can't cast more spells today until i take a nap" is foreign to me
It has plagued every game I've ever been in to the point where I can not conceptualize a scenario in which the party has a caster where this would not happen. What's WFRP like? Are there no restrictions what so ever on casting? Or is it like Sienna where you get fricked up from casting too much.
>What's WFRP like? Are there no restrictions what so ever on casting? Or is it like Sienna where you get fricked up from casting too much.
Well it's Warhammer Fantasy so, odd are, you explode into Daemons.
NTA but there are generally two types of caster in my current gurps campaigns.
Those that run off of FP and Energy reserves, that regenerate Every 10m or an hour of rest, specifically, but almost all their spells just cost one of either anyway.
And those that cast off of concrete resources that aren't coming back just because you had a rest.
Really there's a lot of ways you can do it. I have played exactly one game that did have the above problem, and it's D&D or games that are D&D with new paint and rims. It also stems from GMs failing to have any tactical considerations to withdrawl, and all the monsters politely waiting for LoS to activate their spawn trigger.
WFRP makes you choose between fast shitty casting and slow powerful casting, but the slow powerful kind gives you twice the opportunity to frick yourself over and start bleeding from your eyes. The only ways to get fast powerful magic are to either be a badass tabletop-level hero that can cast spells without even rolling, or else turn to Chaos and engage in warp frickery.
Happened in ever DnD I was in. Long rest between every combat encounter so you could blow your best spells each time. I grew to hate the system
>Long rest between every combat encounter so you could blow your best spells each time.
fricking moronic
its almost like the system isn't designed for lots of LR and thus breaks apart if used this way
>its almost like the system isn't designed for lots of LR
5e is designed for 6 to 8 resource-draining encounters per long rest, and I have never met anyone who has actually played that way.
>and I have never met anyone who has actually played that way.
I wouldn't say 6 to 8 grueling resource draining encounters but i have never played DnD with long rests during a dungeon
If the system design doesn't hold out in practice, it's not the players' fault that it sucks. This isn't a video game, players can do whatever they want, and this isn't even a particularly esoteric strategy.
>This isn't a video game
you are treating it like one
By making sensible decisions instead of forcing myself to go through 5 encounters a day to play the game as it was designed?
by making sensible. META Game decisions yes
It is totally sensible in skyrim to stand in a spot for 3 days just waiting so the shop restocks
sensible
not really in the spirit of the mechanic bu on a meta level completely sensible
Horrible roleplaying though.
How is it a metagame decision for my character to fall back to restore his fighting abilities during a dangerous endeavor?
How is it not a metagame decision for my character to continue pushing through a dangerous area on an empty gas tank for the sake of sticking to how the game was intended to be played?
>How is it a metagame decision for my character to fall back to restore his fighting abilities during a dangerous endeavor?
that isn't that falls under short rest
>that isn't that falls under short rest
Explain why you think that.
because the game is designed that way
>the game isn't designed so that a short rest restores your fighting abilities
Excuse me?
no it is
your character cant force himself to quickly regenerate
>your character cant force himself to quickly regenerate
Sure he can, he just needs to sit down for an hour.
that is a short rest and regaining your breath and yes short rests are fine for the hundreds time.
Okay, so my character sits down for an hour 8 immediately consecutive times, what's the problem?
why would he do that unless he knows about long and short rests?
After trying for a while he realized that he didn't seem to be fully rested and restored after the first seven. Turns out, having an int score of higher than 2 has some sort of impact on these things.
you could justify knowing about exp that way
>after learning that he just killed a golbin he gets a certain amount of exp he spend all summer carefully killing single goblins so that is why he is level 20 now
he noticed his attributes always increase weirdly all 4 levels so it must be something he can repeat
also levelup restore health so my player can totally abuse the level up
>exp as murder points
You're never gonna make it.
i mean yeah level ups restore health
any character with more than 2 int should notice that
its not a gradual increase of experience translating to better skills
we are treating game mechanics literally now
so it is a sudden increase in skills
which means level ups could be abused
>level ups restore health
In what tabletop ruleset?
they increase skills then
drastically
you don't get stronger over time it is sudden
the same way you argue that you don't heal slowly but a long rest instantly restores everything
if we treat game mechanics literally then players should know about level ups
If you can accept that spell levels exist in universe, why shouldn't you be able to accept that class levels exist in universe? In D&D battlemaster fighters and mastermind rogues even have a feature they can use to determine the class levels of a creature.
i accept class levels exist
they are an abstraction
but sudden levelup? I always took it as you actually growing slowly over the adventure
not just when the level up happens
but again if we treat it mechanically that is what happens
>sudden levelup?
I have never played a tabletop game where exp was rewarded mid-fight.
>I always took it as you actually growing slowly over the adventure
Maybe you should try a game like Traveller where characters improve their skills across 8 week study periods?
>I have never played a tabletop game where exp was rewarded mid-fight.
even after the fight it is sudden
>Maybe you should try a game like Traveller
so in dnd you think literally a yellow light appears around you like wow and you instantly get stronger once you cross certain exp tresholds?
>last session you weren't allowed to cast fireball
>this session you can cast fireball twice daily
>you never even practiced casting fireball or asked another wizard to teach you fireball or bought/found a scroll of fireball, but now it's in your book and you can cast it
This is the reality for the character in the universe of the game. D&D is absurdist. Just drink your thinking juice and come up with some reason why the character in the game shouldn't want to rest between fights.
>This is the reality for the character in the universe of the game.
IS IT? In your version that is reality?
Not an abstraction but genuinely what happens
he doesn't just get better at casting over time with experience? It is sudden and makes no sense to you?
Can't remember where I read it. But I once read a short story where XP was a real thing in universe. The nobility and clergy spent a great deal of time and effort trying to conceal it from the general populace. Occasionally a butcher would have a long enough career that he'd notice that he'd gotten stronger than normal people get. A priest would just tell him that he's been rewarded for his diligence and tell him not to boast about it. Murderers were put to death as soon as possible to stop word getting out, or them snowballing. Accidents were occasionally arranged for commoner soldiers who were showing signs of supernatural strength. I thought it was intersection.
It falls under however long my character needs to regain his powers.
If you were making sensible decisions, you wouldn't be long resting after every encounter.
>uh oh, my gun is out of ammo
>should I reload?
>no, that's nonsense, this game isn't designed that way
>charge!!!
short rest is a reload
long rest is a new level
Black person did you just compare reloading to sleeping for 8 hours?
"Reloading" your spells takes 8 hours, so yes, if that's what it takes.
That's restocking on ammo not reloading you absolute moron
So you think it's not sensible to restock on ammo?
mid raid no
and any good game is build around how much you can restock
what are you going to do, continue the raid without ammo? moron
you have ammo
you just don't have the big rocket launcher nuke ammo
that is build around so you have on per level
I'm just not going to waste my ammo shooting at stuffed animals so I don't run out during the raid
>Be me, swat officer
>kick in door of drug house
>exchange fire with gangbangers, expend a magazine of ammunition
>immediately leave the house to acquire fresh magazines and come back later to deal with the rest of them
>be a swat officer
>raiding a house
>completely run out of ammunition
yes, they would in fact retreat and come back later, you fricking imbecile
>swat cops only carry a single magazine/expend all magazines in a single encounter
Fine autismus maximus, leave the house to get all new guns.
>>>swat cops only carry a single magazine/expend all magazines in a single encounter
no they have to manage their ammo
you didn't
you want a free restock because you failed at managing your resources
>they have to manage their ammo
No they don't, they just go crying to mommy for bigger guns.
Dude as a gm if you set up support in that way I absolutely let you
getting support is not the same as running out and taking an 8 hour nap
You know that the waco siege lasted for 51 days, right? That's 50 nights of long resting.
yes a siege
if you are besieging a castle i let you have long rests
Okay, we're level 1 and we're sieging the goblin hideout. Do something about it.
Okay how are you setting it up that they can't leave? Goblin hideouts have tons of exits small enough for them to vanish into all directions
Well, if they vanish then we can collapse their tunnels in peace and the town is saved anyway, sounds like a win to me.
the problem was the kidnapped smith daughter though
that was the quest
do you want to search the collapsed tunnels if you find her corpse to at least bring that back?
also the goblins are still terroizing the area
they just don't have a hideout anymore
>also the goblins are still terroizing the area
>they just don't have a hideout anymore
Great. We can catch them out in the open between long rests.
you can
it takes you a day for 2 goblins which means it takes several weeks for your party to clean them out
meanwhile the village despises you for being the worst adventurers they have ever seen.
sounds like the village is mentally ill
>hire adventures to take care of goblin problem
>adventures kill the kidnapped girl
>then take extremely long to kill a single goblin a day
THEY are mentally ill?
>hire adventures to take care of goblin problem
>they solve the problem but not instantly
>act like they're the scum of the earth
yes, just like you
you were hired to rescue the smith's daughter whom you have killed
you didn't do your job
and you did it in such a way that maximized damage to the village
and the alternative was that the goblins would kill the daughter and continue to cause damage to the village anyway
or do you think that fully organized goblins with thier own fort are somehow less dangerous than a bunch of goblin gangs scattered all over the place
you are genuinely the dumbest person in this thread
of course not more dangerous
if you took them out like normal adventures they wouldn't have terrorized the village every day while you took a day to kill a single one of them
and if we didn't take them out at all they would continue killing the villagers indefinitely
you're such a fricking moron
anon you are insanely dumb
you didn't do the job
someone else actually came and killed the biggest chunk of the goblins because it took two weeks for you to kill the first room
>yet another goalpost shift
dumb frick
anon it is what is happening realistically
it is not the goalpost moving
it is the universe moving because you sleep after a single goblin every day
you are asleep 90% of the time
shit happens when so much time passes
>or do you think that fully organized goblins with thier own fort are somehow less dangerous than a bunch of goblin gangs scattered all over the place
Unironically yes. a bunch of enemies in one place is easier to clear out than a dozen or so smaller groups of enemies spread across a large area. On top of that, roving gangs of goblins will attack much more viciously and frequently trying to get a new hideout or even just increased raiding to steal food, because they no longer have the fort's stockpiles, and they have nothing to go back to and thus will be less likely to retreat when attacking. Nothing to lose and everything to gain makes for massacres.
>Unironically yes.
unironically how do you even go through life with 50 iq
it's impressive that you are even able to use a computer
What? A single target all at one place or little fricking terrorists with nothing to lose?
I am with him
I think you just made the goblins more dangerous
More self-destructive
More willing to endanger themselves because they now lack a base
yeah im sure a bunch of terrorists are more dangerous than the fricking united states military
you're a drooling fricking moron
I mean for individuals yes
also the military isn't there
this is just a small village you are completely abandoning
>I mean for individuals yes
actual moron holy shit
still just as fricking stupid as the first time you've said it, there is literally NOTHING about what you posted that makes any sense at all and I won't even bother to individually rebuke this utter nonsense
organized > unorganized in ALL cases and ALL metrics and ALL circumstances
>organized > unorganized in ALL cases and ALL metrics and ALL circumstances
no
> there is literally NOTHING about what you posted that makes any sense at all
And I'm the one with a sub 50 iq, huh. A bunch of goblins spread across a much larger area who attack anything and everything out of desperation and don't retreat because they have nothing to lose and everything to gain is very dangerous. You might not care because you're slowly wiping out each group as you find them out in the woods and shit, but every one group you wipe out before retreating for the day is another merchant butchered, another farm raided and burned. That is absolutely worse than just assaulting the little fricks when they were in a single place.
> I won't even bother to individually rebuke this utter nonsense
I'll take "I have nothing to refute with" for four hundred alex.
>organized > unorganized in ALL cases and ALL metrics and ALL circumstances
Lol
Lmao
An organized enemy is paradoxically more vulnerable. Leaders can be identified and assassinated, supply lines can be disrupted. A disorganized and scattered enemy, in this case roving bands of goblinoid raiders, cannot be disrupted, cannot easily be located, and are much more prone to random bursts of extreme violence. On top of that, by making them desperate you have made them more vicious and far less likely to retreat. There's a reason why you don't corner rabid or wounded animals, they lash out with extreme force as an act of spite and defiance.
any time the small cells became organized it always resulted in far more horrific acts and far more casualties than when they were 20 dudes hiding from drone strikes in caves
you are completely fricking braindead
Performance against middle eastern insurgents would suggest that many scattered cells operating across a wide area are in fact more difficult to effectively fight than a larger organization concentrated in a smaller area, yes.
they're hard to find because they don't do anything because they're pressured into uselessness and forced to remain fleeing by the organized enemy
>don't do anything.
Assassinations, bombings, raids, attacking military patrols and vanishing, attacking embassies, taking and beheading prisoners while recording it and sending the heads and tapes back to the families.
>uslessness
Funny how a useless force outlasted a monolithic and organized military, isn't it?
>Assassinations, bombings, raids, attacking military patrols and vanishing, attacking embassies, taking and beheading prisoners while recording it and sending the heads and tapes back to the families.
all of which amounts to a drop in the bucket compared to even just the raw kill count the organized entity has on them
>Funny how a useless force outlasted a monolithic and organized military, isn't it?
so you're literally delusional on top of being dumber than a bag of shit
So you didn't read the rest of the post, got it. I'll repeat the point slower this time.
When. You. Scatter. The. Goblins. They. Will. Attack. More. Often. And. More. Violently. Because. They. Have. Nothing. To. Lose.
More. Goblins. Across. A. Larger. Area. Will. Be. More. Dangerous. Than. One. Group. In. A. Smaller. Area. If. Only. Because. Their. Area. Of. Operations. Is. Much. Larger. And. Can. Not. Be. Quickly. Exterminated.
Congrats you just made the goblinoid viet cong.
>solve the problem but not instantly
The problem was goblins holed up outside town attacking villagers and maybe travelling merchants. Now that they are displaced they need a new hideout. Maybe they attack a small farm, butcher the family in their sleep, and hole up there before you can get to them. Yeah, that sounds like a decent reason to hate the people who didn't kill as many as possible when they were all in one place.
The idea of a cluster of villages telling stories about the time they hired some guys to wipe out a goblin nest and they took three months to do it is making me crack up.
>Eh, Stan, remember those adventurers we hired to try and rescue Pete's girl?
>You mean that lot that got 'er killed and scattered goblins across half the country side? Then insisted on hunting them down one a day?
>The very same Stan.
>What about them?
>Turns out they killed a dragon last spring. They let it burn down a town, fought it for five minutes at a time and wore it down over a couple of weeks.
>...Fricking Adventurers.
14 goblins come out of hidden exits in the night and kill you in your sleep.
Yes, enemies sallying out of their hideout to stop the PCs from resting is an example of a good way to encourage characters to not long rest near enemies. I'm really proud of you. It'll work really great until they reach a level where they can conjure a tiny hut or demiplane to rest in.
>It'll work really great until they reach a level where they can conjure a tiny hut or demiplane to rest in
At that point you really don't wanna abuse shit like that and give the dm and the bbeg so much time
I don't understand why you treat dnd like a competitive game where it is players vs DM
you will always lose
>give the bbeg so much time
This is LITERALLY all I've been saying since I entered this thread. If you don't want the players to take infinite rests then stop giving them infinite time to get things done. That's all you have to do. That's all you've ever had to do. No more bullshit tangents about how unrealistic it is for D&D heroes to heal from a night's sleep, just implement timed objectives.
>then stop giving them infinite time
and all I am saying is stop treating players like playtesters who try to break the game at all times
Yes it is the DMs job to get a good time restraint
I agree
BUT if a new dm fails or is inexperienced or somehow makes a mistake it is not the players job to exploit that fricking mistake
That is what we disagree on. you seem to think that the DMs job is it to never make a mistake and the players job is to punish the dm for mistakes
A good player would notice that the DM made a mistake in not setting up a time constraint and then would intentionally not use long rests to abuse that mistake
The characters who the players are controlling want to live. The characters who the players are controlling want to do everything they possibly can to improve their chances of success and of survival. The characters who the players are controlling SHOULD use and abuse EVERYTHING they possibly can in order to beat the bad guys and live. If your players are not having their characters do this, they are metagaming. You could say that you would prefer for them to metagame, but all that is is your personal preference.
>The characters who the players are controlling want to do everything they possibly can to improve their chances of success and of survival.
Even if they know the game isn't intended that way?
Wait so is it my goal as dm to kill them?should I do EVERYTHING I possible can to kill them?
>You could say that you would prefer for them to metagame
I would like them to be cooperative yes
Frame it however you want.
Because it is not a competition
>Even if they know the game isn't intended that way?
Says who? What game are you playing where it's intended for the players to play characters who don't want to live?
>Says who?
says anyone looking at the mechanics
if you think the game is designed around long rests after every encounter then I will call you moronic
>The characters who the players are controlling want to live.
and these characters do not know outside of meta knowledge taht the DM made a mistake and there is no time contraint
logically in a real universe even if they are not aware of one you should always assume time is of the essence
always
so if they have long rests they only do so because they know the dm has no punishment set up for it
that is metagaming
the characters have no way to know that
only the players do
>and these characters do not know outside of meta knowledge taht the DM made a mistake and there is no time contraint
What meta knowledge? If the characters haven't been told that there's a time constraint then why should they act like there's a time constraint?
>If the characters haven't been told that there's a time constraint then why should they act like there's a time constraint?
Because realistically there always would be one and you would be punished by letting problems simmer
100% of the time
in-universe why would they assume time doesn't matter? can you think of a single quest where they could possible know that ?
>in-universe why would they assume time doesn't matter?
Why would they assume it does? Unless you say "We need to find the werewolf before the full moon!" or "We need to stop the cult before they complete their ritual!" then they shouldn't believe that time matters.
>Why would they assume it does?
because it always is
it always matters
does time ever not matter? In anything?
you gave examples for time constraints
i asked for one without a proven time constraint
give me a quest hook where you know for sure there is nothing that could possible happen if you take your time
>because it always is
>it always matters
Okay, so you sit down to play a game of 5e, it's the starter set book, Lost Mines of Phandelver. What happens if you take your time getting to the town instead of rushing? Nothing. What happens if you take your time to beat the redbrands instead of rushing? Nothing. What happens if you take your time to beat the spider? Nothing. What happens if you take your time heading out to beat Agatha the banshee or Venomfang the green dragon instead of rushing? Nothing. Sildar doesn't get killed if you take 3 weeks sieging cragmaw hideout, he's just in stasis at 1 hp until you go find him. There is NO consequence for taking your time at any point thoughout the whole adventure book.
This is the starter set adventure. This is the adventure that's supposed to set everyone's expectations for the edition, and time doesn't matter.
>What happens if you take your time getting to the town instead of rushing?
the guy in the first cave dies
the dwarf in cragmaw castle dies
glassstaff is finished with is business and goes tot he black spider
>Nothing. What happens if you take your time to beat the spider? Nothing.
All wrong
realistically bad shit would happen
Obviously you could alter the adventure so that there are time constraints, and you should, but as written, time doesn't matter at all.
I am pretty sure even in Phandelver there is advice that you shoudl give your players urgency or what you should do if they let time pass
so no the idea that the universe is static and unmoving is very much just your idea
So "we need to kill the goblins quickly before they kidnap more daughters" isn't a good enough reason? Or does it need to specifically be communicated to your moronic self because you can't extrapolate that on your own?
These players don't want to bring anything to the table
anything the DM didn't specifically say is open to intentional misinterpretation to abuse rules
>conjure a tiny hut or demiplane to rest in
There's a ridiculous number of ways to counter those, so I don't know why people get so salty over them. After the first time a mage fished around in their pocket for a scroll of dispell magic, my players don't try this shit anymore. Even demiplane is vulnerable to people plane shifting in, or just dispelling the entrance. Unless they've got a spare planeshift spell going, they won't be doing anything for a while.
>Demiplane
Shout out to the time that my players in an epic level campaign tried that shit against Malcanthet, and she plane-shifted in while they were still resting, level drained them to the point they didn't have any way of leaving, and just left them there to suffer. They toned down their boasts about how OP all their characters were after that one.
I remember the time someone suggested the counter to demiplane resting was having armies of goblins show up and throwing interplanar piercing fireballs around for literally no reason. Fun times
Please read before you post. I was taking the piss out of the other anon.
WFRP instead has the issue of
>I took an injury today so let's spend the next month waiting for me to heal
That's why you make good friends with Dr Barber
>oh shit, I almost fricking died
>eh, nothing a good night's sleep won't fix
I hope you brought characters with good wilderness and perception skills, because your ass is getting ambushed in the middle of the night.
> you get a feeling leaving so many dead bodies will [attract monsters/cause security to increase]
> you also have limited time before [the reason you're doing this goes to shit somehow]
> so, sure, you could do that
Rather than looking at this adversarially, I'd just take it as an opportunity to present them with the challenge of overcoming an obstacle without access to their primary mode of offense. Without a specific example, anything that requires they do something that would normally be trivial with spells but is difficult otherwise. This gives them a sense of perspective and also rewards them for being more discerning with their strategy in the future; in-character it gives development to characters that rely on their spells, out-of-character it can be a fun time. All around, great opportunity for some fun.
Goals should be timed and the timer should be made clear to the players. Once they start on the path to the goal, if they leave and take the day off, they lose the final objective.
Mumble under my breath how they wasted two spell slots trying to kill a simple kobold that the fighter could have killed. Next have the next day's weather be worse, scavenging monsters who are hungry who are eating on the dead body's are around and have that secret stalker get a step closer.
>"Yep, looks like we blew our best spells on that 'super tough' encounter to blow it out of the water. We'll head back outside, take the rest of the day off, and return the next morning. It's been only one fight, but better safe than sorry."
This is literally what happens in Pathfinder. They can just sit in Mage's Magnificent Mansion and no one can enter except maybe wait outside the door for the PCs to come out. They can just teleport away beforehand anyway. Then go back and just frick shit up then disappear again. "muh four encounters per day" is an actual fricking joke. Yeah, if you want them to be even more powerwanks than usual. And there is no such thing as a viable BBEG who can't cast mind blank. I literally had to make up a ring of mind blank for like 100,000 gp for the two BBEGs to wear so that the PCs didn't just scry on them at night and kill them in their sleep.
Frick high magic. I'm only doing E6 from now on. Pathfinder magic is literally out of control and the entire game is warped around the caster meta. It's not even a fricking game anymore.
You wanna frick up PCs that rely on mansion? I hope they're all mind blanked, otherwise Generico the evil wizard is about to shit on their day. First, because he's scrying them, he's aware that they've entered the mansion. Secondly, he goes and gets his boys. Thirdly, he places every kind of 'symbol' spell he's got just over 10 feet from the entrance in every direction. Fourth, he buffs his minions for all he's worth. Fifth, he casts antimagic field on the entrance to the mansion. They'll either be thrown out into the astral sea, or dumped out into the middle of the trap, your choice. Then, the mages are useless and being pumped full of arrows, while any martials trying to exit the field are treading on every prepared trap you can think of.
If they get eight hours to prepare for a fight, so do the villains. Use that time. No reason, the BBEG won't just continue his plan while they're indisposed either. Have him give the order to sack a town while they're chilling in a magically conjured sauna. Have npcs ask where they were when they needed them.
>I'm only doing E6 from now on.
This is actually surprsingly fun.
>wake up tomorrow and enter dungeon
>enemy has reinforced and their boss has arrived due to the commotion
>okay, set camp you guys
>rogue and fighter roll out sleeping bags under the stars
>bard pitches a fancy tent
>druid climbs a tree
>everybody gains a nice long rest
>just as the sun peeks over the horizon, the cursed heart you’ve been carrying around grumbles and spews eerie light, and a clammy green claw bursts from its seeping ventricles
>it’s the boss respawned from last session and he’s fricking pissed, roll initiative
I’ve yet to meet a group who will go back to bed AGAIN if I just smack em square at the crack of dawn. I always have a bad guy from the past ready to pop in if I need him.
>I’ve yet to meet a group who will go back to bed AGAIN if I just smack em square at the crack of dawn.
Lucky you.
>Assaulting assassin temple
>Wizard burns through his high level spell slots over killing assassins martials are cutting through like butter
>We need to take a long rest
>Wake up next day
>Assassins are all raised undead
>Much harder fight ensues
>Wizard again out of high level spell slots
>Long rest again
>Session ends.
Well clearly the answer was to have the assassins come back as ghosts. and if they rest a THIRD time, that's when the reinforcements the assassins called for come
Is this a real problem?
In almost 10 years of play I've found that the norm is to be operating under some sort of time pressure and even if we're not then its expected that intelligent enemies will respond appropriately to outsiders merking their guards.
If we have the luxury of the 15 min adventuring day then sure we'll take advantage of it but that only tends to happen in urban adventure arcs where we might be able to conduct a single targeted kidnapping/heist/assassination and then retreat to our base to plan the next op or if we're raiding some super out of the way dungeon with no living defenses, more like an archaeological expedition than a typical dungeon crawl where multiple days might be spent digging through a collapsed passage or cataloguing artifacts.
Next morning they find the place empty. All the remaining monsters are dead, and there is hardly any loot remaining.
When they get back to town they find another adventurer party celebrating in the local tavern: they cleared out the dungeon after the players' party left.
>More monsters appeared over night.
> I use systems with resource mechanics that don't match up with the type of game I am running and for some reason I think that should be other people's problem
>Players being bad at resource management is the the DM and system's fault
>Players being bad at resource management is the the DM and system's fault
If it works for them, they're not bad at resource management.
Do people really play this game and only rest when the DM says you've rested?
"The door behind you opens and several more guards rush in, having heard the sounds of combat."
That is why you always have a ticking clock element
sure you can do that but the kidnapped princess will probably be sacrificed by the cult by the time you arrive.
OR
okay you leave the dungeon and restore your tired bodies
by the time you return all the inhabitants left and obviously they also took all the treasure with them
>Unfortunately, tonight is the full moon, so if you don't stop the bad guy before the moon hits its apogee, he'll cast the world into darkness for the next 10,000 years and the campaign ends.
DMs who don't utilize timed objectives are the problem, not players who take advantage of the time the DM gives them.
>DMs who don't utilize timed objectives are the problem, not players who take advantage of the time the DM gives them.
I think people stretch this mindset way too much
>it is not my fault I am abusing this mechanic dishonestly. It is the DM's job
>it is not my fault I am playing my character as a loner who would never work in a team, it is the DMs job to facilitate a world where it works
>It is not my fault my character is too strong. It is the DMs job to perfectly balance all encounters
This is a cooperative game and sometimes a player doing just a little makes the games a lot smoother
Especially for inexperienced DMs.
>This is a cooperative game and sometimes a player doing just a little makes the games a lot smoother
That's definitely true, but if you have infinite time to get something dangerous done, there's no reason not to take all the time you need to do it as safely as possible, in or out of character.
you could try cutting a new dm some slack if you notice what you are doing is clearly abusing the system
I disagree. Both the players and the GM needs to be committed to playing a game in earnest, which includes making decisions from an in-character perspective.
And from an in-character perspective, a group of people aren't going to work their way out of whatever they're exploring just to rest 9 hours before they're even remotely tired.
No a player can metagame whenever he wants and that is realistic. A DM has to create an environment where the players have no freedom to abuse
>which includes making decisions from an in-character perspective.
Yes.
>come back tomorrow and the necromancer has reanimated all of the undead
Why would skilled adventurers continue exploring a dangerous dungeon in a hostile area if they have zero combat resources remaining after a single fight?
Why wouldn't they retreat and set up a perimeter somewhere safe and camp out for the night?
Why would they adventure at all if safety is a concern. A farmers life makes much more sense
any time you play an adventure you are playing unsafe bullshit
There are degrees of unsafe-ness. There is space between "padded walls" and "actual suicide."
yes. I would say going on adventures is padded walls territory
>I would say going on adventures is padded walls territory
>going on adventures is "so safe that you're even safe from yourself" territory
Huh?
I thought with padded walls we meant "belongs in a mental institute"
>Why would they adventure at all if safety is a concern.
High risk, high reward. Why do people gamble? Why do people work dangerous jobs? The answer is obvious to everyone who's not stupid. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Adventurers have no obligation to fight fair or behave like video game characters. They do have every reason in the world to dump all their resources into a single fight, and then retreat and rest and do it all over again. Why would they risk limb and potential injuries by fighting suboptimally against some goblins or wolves or zombies or whatever? Maybe these things have some dangerous poison or curse. Better to blast them to kingdom come from a distance, retreat, and recuperate your spells/resources, and return to the dungeon the next day.
Why /wouldn't/ you do this? You can't answer a question with a dumb, stupid question. Adventurers adventure precisely because safety is a concern , meaning they are performing dangerous work, meaning few people are willing to perform the work, meaning their work is handsomely rewarded. This is obvious to everyone with about room temperature IQ.
>High risk, high reward. Why do people gamble? Why do people work dangerous jobs?
very few people actually do that and those people then would see the same high reward high risk to not go rest after every encounter because something could happen stealing their tresure
again the same logic you use to justify it would make your overly cautious gameplay redundant
>Why /wouldn't/ you do this?
Why would they do it? If they are high risk high reward kind of people they just stopped being exactly that
your characters are so inconsistent they are not straight played even within just one of your posts
you are terrible at roleplay
>Why would they do it?
I just explained why. Adventurers have no reason to clear a dungeon in a single day or under some arbitrary time limit because it seems cool from a narrative, gameplay perspective. That's not how actual combatants in an actual fight would behave. Running and gunning through a whole dungoen? No. Smart, intelligent combatants who wish to stay alive take it slow and steady, clearing rooms one at a time. Why wouldn't they do this? They're essentially laying siege to the dungeon. Siege is tremendously safer from a strategical point of view compared to charging an enemy army on an open battlefield. Warfare isn't like some flashy video game where you run in like a moron and just take turns cutting off each others meat points. If there's one entrance to the dungeon, and/or if the dungeon is filled with low intelligent opponents, then use this kind of quasi siege tactics of mag-dumping your resources and retreating. Whittle down the opponent piece by piece as to minimize your losses. This really isn't complicated. You're clearly just stuck in some moronic fantasy novel/video game ideal of what dungeon clearing looks like, which is cool and flashy if you were watching a Marvels Avengers movie, but this isn't how a trained adventurer would behave. He wouldn't continue exploring the dungeon at half HP and zero spell slots left. Even if that would make a cool movie scene in your dumb brain, objectively that's just fricking moronic.
>you are terrible at roleplay
You're just projecting at this point . Acting with self-preservation is very good roleplaying
>Acting with self-preservation is very good roleplaying
Of course it is. If your character is cautious
you described them as high risk high reward seekers
that is not cautious
but okay you do taht and a different adventurer group cleared out the dungeon
you are not alone in my world. dungeons don't just exist for you
you decided the smart and safe thing and you lost
I have no problem to take away all treasures and rewards from c**ts like you
>you described them as high risk high reward seekers. that is not cautious
You can do something risky, but in a smart way that optimizes your chances for success. You can gamble your lifesavings on a single game of roulette. But that doesn't mean you can't optimize your chances for success. You can bet on black (~50%), or you can bet on 00 (~1%). There's margins of success here that you seem to be unable to understand.
>Of course it is. If your character is cautious
Every organism possess self-preservation. Self-preservation and caution are two separate things. Even the most "badass" soldier/warrior is not going to take on an engagement unless he has a decisive advantage. This is literally written in ancient rules for warfare.
Furthermore even if we take on this moronic Marvels Avengers tier interpretation of what combat 'ought' to be, we still would need lots of mundane combats in order to thematically, create a distinct moment for when our heroes throw caution to the wind and take on a fight without decisive advantage or even with a tactical disadvantage. You're making very low brain interpretations from a tactical point of view and even from a narrative perspective you fail as well.
>but okay you do taht and a different adventurer group cleared out the dungeon
Okay, that's not totally unreasonable. There needs to be some stake, some pressure from somewhere. That's where you get intelligent actors behaving in suboptimal ways, because there are conditions that force them to make suboptimal decisions (competition, time restrictions, etc)
I'm not trying to be rude but you might legitimately just need to sit down and consider these things for like an hour and maybe some of these things will start to make sense
No I don't think I will
someone who is as uncooperative as you is not a player I want to accommodate
If someone would act like you as a player in my group I would want them gone
Even if I could learn to deal with someone like you I think it is absolutely unfair to the other players who do their best to make it an enjoyable experience for both players and DM
If you're halfway through a dungeon, on half HP, with no spell slots left, to continue the dungeon clearing at that point is metagaming. There's no other way around it, that's what it is. You want your players to metagame. Which is okay, fine. Because you're saying you want your players to make a decision to not want to spend the 5 real life minutes it takes to declare a track-back through the dungeon, and declare watches, make rolls, and return the next day. You want the players to metagame and trust you as the DM and assume that that no matter how recklessly they behave, you will have balanced the remainder of the dungeon with their lack of resources in mind. With zero reason for their PC to want to behave in this borderline suicide manner.
Which is just silly. Because you could easily accomplish the effect you want, if you simply give the PC a basic reason as to why they need to complete their task sooner rather than later. This is so simple. If the player (and PC) knows they have 24 hours to complete their task, then they know a long rest is out of the equation if they want to clear the dungeon. So the PC has a reason to proceed and the player knows you balanced the dungeon under the assumption they didn't get to long rest.
You're being supremely autistic about this and randomly lashing out with personal attacks
>You're being supremely autistic about this
Because it fundamentally reveals a terrible type pf player I want little to do with
who wants to punish their dm for giving his players too much freedom
"A terrible player is a player who never takes rests and runs headfirst into conflict until everything hostile within a 1mile radius is dead, or the player character is dead"
You are unironically just stupid. The player can't read your mind. He has no way of knowing your sitting behind the DM screen seething over his decision to take a rest.
I feel like this should be obvious but perhaps its worth pointing out to someone who's as cognitively impaired as you seem to be. The player has every reason to think to himself, if he charges into the next room, on half HP and zero spell slots, that he will easily be slain. And when he asks the DM why he died, you will simply tell him "You had every chance to retreat and come back to the next room in this dangerous dungeon!"
You should literally just tell your players they have zero chance of dying and then they'll behave in the ways that you expect them to. I am being 100% real with you right now. Because that's clearly how you are DMing. Either that or you just expect people to give zero shits about their PC as they send PC after PC into a meat grinder
No what you are doing is punishing dms who gave you freedom
because you can't play along a little
you have to metaphorically have your feet cut off and have to be railroaded hard otherwise you justify metagaming as "totally realistic"
No fricking adventurer or explorer regardless of how tired they would be would leave the fricking dungeon to return later
that is completely unrealistic
it only makes sense because of game mechanics like long rest which is what you are abusing and are thus metagaming
>You should literally just tell your players they have zero chance of dying and then they'll behave in the ways that you expect them to. I am being 100% real with you right now. Because that's clearly how you are DMing.
I have players die. What the frick are you talking about?
>Either that or you just expect people to give zero shits about their PC as they send PC after PC into a meat grinder
I just expect my players to treat this game as a cooperative game
My players shouldn't abuse game mechnics like long rests because I give them too much freedom and didn't make it some high stakes super time constrain mission
Think about in-universe what your long rest suggestion is. It is explitily doing something that doesn't make sense IN-UNIVERSE only to abuse mechanics (Long rest) that were not indended to be abused like you do.
How is that not the most cancerous metagaming? I would say that is on par with googling the adventure if you are playing through a pre-written adventure
>No what you are doing is punishing dms who gave you freedom
What guarantee does the player have that you balanced the dungeon with zero long rests in mind. How is the player supposed to have access to this information if you don't tell them or hint this to them in any way? How are they supposed to know you didn't design the encounter with the party taking long rests in mind? You're dodging this question. Because you expect everyone to think exactly how you are thinking.
This is your concept of "cooperation". This is a random determination you have made, subjectively. In my mind, it is not anti-cooperation to spend 3 minutes tracking back, setting up camp, and taking watches for a long rest. But I'd forgo a long rest, sure. If the DM indicated in some way that this is how he designed the dungeon. Which you, like a b***hy girlfriend, are randomly deciding that you "shouldn't have to say so" and that everyone should just be able to read your mind
>Think about in-universe what your long rest suggestion is. It is explitily doing something that doesn't make sense IN-UNIVERSE only to abuse mechanics (Long rest) that were not indended to be abused like you do.
Bro get real. It is not abusing mechanics to clear out half a dungeon and retreat outside the dungeon for a long rest.
anon the fact that a long rest restores you to full power and closes your bullet wounds is an unrealistic concession the game makes to be reasonable to its players
If you want to abuse this system and defend yourself with "muh realism" then we have to adjust long rests
they have to take weeks to restore adventures to full power again
because what a long rest does mechanically is an unrealistic concession you are too used to
>Which you, like a b***hy girlfriend, are randomly deciding that you "shouldn't have to say so" and that everyone should just be able to read your mind
Anon you have that little logic in you that you think it is totally fine to stop into a long dungeon dive to take a quick long rest that makes completely no sense in-universe?
short rest I let my players sometimes do in the dungeon. So for that you wouldn't have to go out
>No fricking adventurer or explorer regardless of how tired they would be would leave the fricking dungeon to return later
I feel like you are very stupid.
it makes no absolutely no sense in universe
>fricking indiana jones got hit by a bullet
>he quickly leaves the temple and takes the plane home to restore for six weeks and then he returns to the dungeon to do two more traps and then back on the plane to restore again
that is realistic
You don't have to return to your hometown to long rest either so your point is somewhat redundant.
That is what you would have to do realistically to use a long rest as a way to heal.
Because otherwise the healing makes no sense.
D&D healing makes no sense. Hit points make no sense. You can hit the ground traveling at terminal velocity, walk it off, and heal most of the damage by having a wank and napping for an hour while a ponce with a lute sings to you.
>D&D healing makes no sense.
True. Some of it are concessions
so don't use long rests willy nilly
>and heal most of the damage by having a wank and napping for an hour
exactly.
and I understand short rests are important for classes like warlocks so I would never completely sit here and forbid them
but long rest mechanically have to be used sparingly
and thankfully I never had players who tried to take a long rest after every single encounter which is just compromised of two goblins
Arguing about realism for rpgs is stupid.
>Arguing about realism for rpgs is stupid.
Well this argument started that it would be realistic for adventurers to abuse long rests mid dungeon
>Adventurers have no obligation to fight fair or behave like video game characters.
Meanwhile apparently the enemies never reinforce, never fortify, and never launch counter offensives.
Why would they blow all their resources in one fight knowing that the area is dangerous and the dangers aren't encompassed in that single fight?
They don't have to blow all their resources, even if they only blow half of their LR resources, that would be enough such that the smart decision would be to fall back and take a LR. So they would have enough reserves to fight off an ambush in the night.
>such that the smart decision would be to fall back and take a LR
on a meta level absolute
its like how in skyrim you could stand in place for several days and use waiting to have a shop restock or rest and hour after running and using your stamina
On a non-meta level it makes sense as well. Unless your character actively WANTS to die, they should be taking steps to ensure their continued survival. Unless there's a time crunch, or more enemies will show up later, or some other factor exists, characters aren't going to push on at half strength rather than stopping to recuperate.
>On a non-meta level it makes sense as well.
No. In universe you are healing over a long time and not instantly with a long rest
>In universe you are healing over a long time and not instantly with a long rest
Then how come all my hit points are back if I'm not fully healed? D&D isn't real life.
>Then how come all my hit points are back if I'm not fully healed?
because the game makes a concession and has some unrealistic part in long rest to make the game go smoother
that is like an unspoken contract between players and the dm
we don't make healing super complicated and you do not abuse long rests
D&D isn't real life. In D&D a long rest heals you to full HP. Instead of an absolutely moronic realism argument, just add a time crunch, or the notion that more enemies will come, or some other factor to incentivize both the player and the character to push on.
>In D&D a long rest heals you to full HP.
In universe? Do characters in universe think in long rests and short rests? Not just players but everyone?
>just add a time crunch
Again I usually have something like that but I hate the idea that it is completely up to the dm to be cooperative and players are like dogs who if you don't watch them for five seconds will abuse everything without any guilt or any inkling that maybe players should not be so uncooperative
>players are like dogs who if you don't watch them for five seconds will abuse everything without any guilt
>Unless your character actively WANTS to die, they should be taking steps to ensure their continued survival.
Anything and everything your character (*character," not player) can leverage for a higher success rate is and should be on the table.
your character doesnt think in long and short rests
My character knows that a full night's sleep will close all his wounds because that's the reality of the world he's lived in for his whole life. If you don't like how fast characters heal in D&D, maybe you should switch to a different system or try the DMG's "gritty realism" resting rules.
so in universe your character knows that he is in a game that is balanced around his strong spells not always being available and thus long rests are extremely valuable
your character is that meta aware?
Does he also know about levels and CR and exp?
Spell levels are an explicit in-universe mechanic.
sure. but are long rests and short rests really something that applies to every person in dnd?
How the hell are taverns not a million times more expensive given the demand sleeping has?
>How the hell are taverns not a million times more expensive given the demand sleeping has?
Because everyone just passes out on the ground or in trees.
>How the hell are taverns not a million times more expensive given the demand sleeping has?
Because people sleep at home
You god damn buffoon
Unless this is an expedition strictly for fun to a dead zone where nothing even remotely intelligent lives, there's a time crunch. At the very least, everything beyond the first zone is going to leave with the treasure after finding the entrance obliterated by full tilt spellcasters with no restraints.
>Unless this is an expedition strictly for fun to a dead zone where nothing even remotely intelligent lives, there's a time crunch. At the very least, everything beyond the first zone is going to leave with the treasure after finding the entrance obliterated by full tilt spellcasters with no restraints.
This post really doesn't make sense. Why is this dungeon the party is exploring being patrolled every 12 hours by other adventuring parties? Surely it would have been cleared out by now, given that it's existed for what, months, years, decades? Centuries?
Secondly, why also is the entire forest or coast or meadow or whatever, in an area with intelligent creatures, being patrolled constantly in the middle of the night? Or day? Do you know how many fricking people it takes to set up a search party? What is the bandits motivation for randomly patrolling a 100 square mile forest? Okay, there's intelligent life in the general area, but you're not really explaining how or why this intelligent life like bandits would hone in on exactly where the party is hanging out in some massive sprawling forest that would realistically need an entire army to sweep and again if these forests are dangerous why would bandits or some other intelligent creature randomly patrol them
You're making so many assumptions, that leave so many questions, I seriously can't understand how your thought process is working here
>Surely it would have been cleared out by now, given that it's existed for what, months, years, decades? Centuries?
You are making tons of assumptions
most quests are recent problems that are asked to be solved quickly
what the frick are you talking about here making tons of moronic illogical assumptions?
Ultimately I think you and I are trying to explain how self-preservation works to people who fundamentally don't understand what self-preservation actually means, and they expect and want tabletop PCs to behave just like anime protagonists, or comic book heroes, who basically charge head first into every battle with blind enthusiasm, because that's what /can/ make for a dramatic and compelling story moment-- and they this way of acting is heroic and subsequently any deviation from that is not heroic and is cowardly. Like somehow a basic cost/benefit analysis is cowardice, lmao. These nibbas really think "B-but Captain America wouldn't do that!"
These types of hero-obsessed DMs don't realize, or don't care, that this way of thinking only works in movies with scripts. It doesn't work in a game with a non-predefined outcome. It's just totally disconnected from reality. I've run into DMs like this and their expectations really just defy explanation for me. Marvels Avengers and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
>These types of hero-obsessed DMs don't realize, or don't care, that this way of thinking only works in movies with scripts.
dnd is cooperative script writing really
if you want what is realistic we need to talk about how long rests don't actually heal and we need to rework every abstraction
Also your obsession with capeshit is embarrassing
I don't even like superhero shit
>dnd is cooperative script writing really
dnd is a game, you fricking moron
yes a game with abstractions
do attribute numbers exist actually in universe? do players know they have a 20 in charisma and profeciency bonus
because that shit is all abstraction to have mechanics work like long rests are
>dnd is cooperative script writing really
It's not, it's a puzzle game. The DM is supposed to plan encounters that the players could theoretically beat, the puzzle, then the players do their best to beat the puzzle. If the DM decides that time isn't a factor in beating the puzzle, then the players don't have to consider time when beating the puzzle. If the players make moronic choices, they might fail to beat the puzzle, which will have drastic consequences for their puzzle pieces.
and you think the only person who has to make sure it all goes smoothly is the dm and players should not only not help with having a good game they are obligated to actively break the game like they are playtesters?
The only thing the players are obligated to do is to work together using the information their puzzle piece has been allowed to know. If your players are too good at solving your puzzles, then you should either make better puzzles or find stupider players.
but my players understand the very concept of dnd is cooperative
they would never abuse systems like you do
I never had to forbid them to take long rests in the middle of an adventure.
Because they never abused the system or saw me as their enemy
>but my players understand the very concept of dnd is cooperative
Yes, I literally just said that in the post you're replied to.
>the players are obligated to to work together
It really is right there in the post you replied to. I promise that if you read the post that you replied to you'll see those words.
>>the players are obligated to to work together
I thought you meant only with each other and not the dm
sorry if you meant with the dm then my bad
Please do not agree with me! Your posts are super cringe and make our side look really stupid.
This homie we're debating with has spent the entire thread trying to rationalize why adventurers should never attempt to take long rests in the middle of dangerous dungeon clearing; and he specifically argues that it's metagaming, game-breaking, and against the spirit of the game, and breaks immersion and principles of good roleplaying to do so. For intelligent adventurers to replenish their resources instead of bum-rushing every encounter with reckless abandon.
homie I could mash my face against my keyboard and come up with a better argument, this dude is mega cringe don't simp for the windowlicking moron
please stop
you have made several posts whining about avengers
like that is a good comparison
also yeah it is metagaming
that is not the point
It's literally not metagaming, why would a skilled adventurer not retreat and replenish his resources after expending a significant amount. Making tactically smart decisions is not metagaming.
Now try to explain your position without using gay reddit neologisms like "yikes, oof, cringe, can you stop?, wow just wow"
>skilled adventurer
>expending all their resources after 1 encounter
Pick one
It's like how cops in the real world are trained to mag dump violent criminals. You can cry about it, but overkill is the most efficient means to deal with a potentially lethal threat. If your intention is to minimize losses to your person, or the party/team as a whole. Which it should be, if you are playing your character with basic b***h levels of self-preservation.
Yes it is worth blasting some low level threats with fireballs and then fricking off for 24 hours to recuperate the spell slots, and repeating the process until the dungeon is cleared. This is optimally for the PC and the player. But most DMs aren't fricking moronic and usually have some condition in place that gives the PC and the players a good reason not to want to play optimally.
>not to want to play optimally.
how is optimal the same way as game breaking anti-fun
frick just stop rolling dice and let the players win all the time
makes no difference if they are already willing to cheat what is even the point?
> The party enters the dungeon. As they do so, the entrance to the dungeon rapidly shuts behind them. Upon inspection, it is revealed that the entrance has been magically sealed and cannot be opened by ordinary means. The party must slay Dickwad McFrickface, the evil wizard who is the architect and owner of this dungeon. The party must, at a minimum, find his magical artifact, the HurgleSchmurgle, if they wish to leave this place alive. Slaying him is an option as well.
> The dungeon is teeming with many wandering monsters, and taking rests for extended periods of time comes with many risks. It iseven rumored that Dickwad McFrickface has been dabbling with demonic rituals lately, and if the party dallies for too long, Dickwad may soon summon a terribly strong foe with the potential to destroy cities! The cries of innocents can be heard in the depths of the dungeon, this evil wizard is surely experimenting on hapless villagers as he conducts his foul magical rituals. The party must make haste if they wish to thwart this evildoer and his dastardly plans!
How fricking hard is it to pull some random excuse out of your ass to give the players a reason to want to participate in the ways you want them to? This is just lazy behavior. If you want someone to do something, give them a reason. You can't just transplant the party with zero context and expect them to behave as if there's a rush or stake when there isn't any. You can't just fricking plop the party down like they just instanced into a dungeon, like it's a fricking WoW raid.
It isn't
That is my point
you can easily come up with excuses
so you understand how much sense it makes for time to come to bite you in the ass
I asked you for an example where time doesn't matter and you give me several where it does
anon all I am saying is that if a newbie DM forgets or fails to make time explicitly matter it is then incredibly fricking homosexual behavior to instantly say
>well my character would abuse the long rest mechanic realistically
Its fricking cancer
you are cancer
Maybe the newbie DM learns her lesson and starts making adventures that account for that sort of thing?
So you actually think it is the players job to playtest and abuse mechanics to punish the DM?
That is what I mean with treating this adversarial.
If you want to play that way then be ready for regular fair TPKs
It's the players' job to have their characters work together to try to beat the bad guy and survive by any means necessary. That is their only job.
I disagree hard
If that were the case then it would be the DMs job to make the players fail and die and only that
No, it is the DM's job to create scenarios that the PCs could theoretically beat. They could also theoretically fail to beat the scenarios, either because they ran out of time, ran out of HP, or some other reason. If the DM decides that time is not important to beat the scenario then the PCs should reasonably take as much time as they need to beat the scenario without running out of HP.
>If the DM decides that time is not important
If the DM decides that then sure
if the DM makes a mistake and the players abuse it I think the DM is free to punish them as unfairly as he wants
because at that point they made it clear this is a competition
>PCs should reasonably take as much time as they need to beat the scenario without running out of HP.
if that is the game everyone on the table agrees is the game for them sure
but if the players or just one player abuse a mechanic and oversight or too much freedom of the dm then they are bad player, bad friends and cancer
basically what the other anon said
>As the DM your job is not to give the players the option to have infinite gold.
If you frick up as DM and give your players infinite time then you can do two things, either you can live with mistake and remember not to make it again, or you can be frank and say "Players, I have made a mistake, please allow me to retcon the game"
Have you never made a mistake as a dm and your players were just naturally nice and did not abuse it?
Am I the only one who is playing with friends instead of enemies?
When I frick up as DM I either sleep in the bed I made or I grovel before my players. If you're never forced to admit that you failed then you'll never fricking learn.
So they are not your friends?
you actually grovel in front of them
do players grovel in front of you when they make a mistake? Or is it one sided and you are a cuck to your "friends"?
A lot of DMs I'm learning have a God complex and literally cannot accept the idea that they're wrong about something
Clearly there's no frick up too large for them to fix by fudging rolls.
fundamentally both sides agree the DM is wrong
the only disagreement is whether the players are wrong to abuse a mistake of their friend in this hobby
both sides agree the DM is wrong
chill
Giving the players infinite gold, and expecting them to not do anything with it is dumb
Giving the players infinite time, and expecting them to not do anything with it is also dumb
I was very civil at the beginning of this discussion but at a certain point if this guy is just going to endlessly argue that players are acting against the spirit of the game for taking advantage of an infinite resource, he's deserving of ridicule. The first thing that he should be thinking is "why did I give my players infinite gold" not "How dare my players exploit the infinite gold I gave them".
>Giving the players infinite gold, and expecting them to not do anything with it is dumb
But that is not what happened
it is more like the players find out that if they write infinite gold on their character sheet they have it
so they should do it
>I was very civil at the beginning
anon your civility does not insult me
your stupidity is insulting
you think you are not insulting by being this moronic?
>that's real for them.
so are stats
How are level ups not real to your player just as much
do you understand the abstraction there?
Because of the numbers they can't gradually increase 0.25 every level so it is 1 every 4 levels
that is an abstraction
mechanically you jump up 2 asi at 4 levels but in game you don't
the same way you restore your spell uses
mechanically you restore all in an instant after 8 hours long rest
realistically you don't
>it is more like the players find out that if they write infinite gold on their character sheet they have it
Please, please, PLEASE go get tested. You are so astoundingly moronic I can't understand how you managed to learn to read.
Am I allowed to make fun of this guy now? I feel like I should have your blessing to make fun of this guy now.
I'm out, senpai. This thread's beyond saving, I should've stopped posting hours ago.
I feel like it's sometimes worth discussing extremely basic, foundational game mechanics and best practices. It helps to remind ourselves why certain things are the way they are, if we do basic exercises like explicitly write out why giving players infinite resources is a bad idea, and what to do if you accidentally do it.
I know you hate me but I agree with that
I never disagreed that it is the best practice of the DM to have a time constraint
I just said as a player it is best practice to not abuse systems and play like a videogame playtester
homie you think taking a long rest outside of a dungeon is the same thing as writing "infinite gold" on my character sheet you are insane
yes I said that
And I stand by that
your argument is that the players should use everything in their power even meta knowledge to abuse every oversight of the DM
a DM who makes a mistake to not include a time constraint and not punish his players for the long rest is an oversight and the players abusing it to increase their chances
in the same way a DM not checking all the charactersheets is making an oversight and players should abuse that
that is your logic
I am saying there should be a decent code of conduct for a good player
you are saying there shoudn't and they should do everything in their power to increase their chances
Because I can feel the dummy giving up I wanna make it clear
I understand level ups and ASI as an abstraction
in-universe the character doesn't instantly get +1 to his charisma modifer at level 4
he actually just has been growing for those 4 levels and it is an abstraction to simulate that
In universe you don't instantly restore everything and are as fit as you will ever be
Long Rests are an abstraction to make the game playable
abusing abstractions is dishonest shit
Its the same thing
If the DM isn't constantly checking the character sheets since everything is the DMs job then how are the players not correct to cheat with numbers? How is it different to cheat with mechanics
your argument is that if the DM makes the mistake it is the players job to abuse it, right?
I am insanely stubborn. I wish I was 80IQ and could just not care
>Am I allowed to make fun of this guy now?
you always were
make fun all you want. If you are finally exhausted with your wrong argument then continue
I know I am right.
Not that anon but I agree you are very wrong.
>Long Rests are an abstraction to make the game playable
Obviously yes but absolutely not obviously "so therefore players don't know they're enormously more combat effective after resting."
The PCs are in-character better in their first fight of the day. They have in-character limited spell per day, even if the wizard doesn't in-character know EXACLY how far he can press, he knows that once he starts using spells, he starts tiring out and risks running out of magic.
Making in-character decisions based on those in-character facts is not meta gaming.
"But nobody acts like that IRL!"
Thank God I don't fight for a living, but if I did, I'd start early in the morning with all my artillery, and then wait until the next trucks of shells rolled in before fighting again.
That's a bad plan, but not for "meta" reasons
Once you've told me why that's a bad idea that would never work for in character reasons, return to your own game and tell me why it works for your wizard.
>"so therefore players don't know they're enormously more combat effective after resting."
I would translate that to "they have only certain amount of energy every day"
its not like you can force a rest only because of injuries and wasted spellslots
time is just as much important
>
Once you've told me why that's a bad idea that would never work for in character reasons, return to your own game and tell me why it works for your wizard.
Because you wold not fall asleep
realistically you would sit there trying your best to sleep and then maybe sleep for a few hours before waking up without really having gained anything
If you think I am so wrong challenge yourself next weekend
you wake up after an 8 hour sleep and then you try to fall asleep for 8 hours again after an hour so
you can do exhaustive sport in that hour
you will not fricking fall asleep for 8 hours again
>Because you wold not fall asleep
You don’t need to sleep to long rest, that has already been covered several times. Thri-kreen for example never sleep and can’t sleep, they spend their entire long rests on light activity. Divorce long resting and sleeping in your mind because they are not the same thing.
You only get one long rest per day so if you just tested 1 hour before you’d need to wait another 15 hours to long rest but a character can absolutely spend those 15 hours on other things to play it safe and be careful rather than pressing on in a potentially dangerous situation while expended. That isn’t metagaming unless you give them a reason they would want to continue despite that. It isn’t hard to do and many have been brought up in this very thread.
>You don’t need to sleep to long rest
you need to restore exhaustion
I think it is easier to imagine that as deep sleep but fundamenteally it doesn't matter
>Divorce long resting and sleeping in your mind because they are not the same thing.
and you divorce long resting being the reason you get your spells back
they are once per day
that is it
>you need to restore exhaustion
Yeah but that is something different too.
A berserker berserks. It makes him exhausted, literally exhausted. Is he not allowed to want a long rest?
A long rest restores a level of the exhausted condition but also restores hot points and spells. You are thinking long rest = sleeping for the night. It isn’t.
>and you divorce long resting being the reason you get your spells back
>they are once per day
So if you don’t long rest, you still get your spells back then?
No you don’t. You get them back once per day but that is because you can only long rest once per day. But you can just wait until enough time has passed so you can then rest and get your spells back. Even if you didn’t need to long rest for your spells to come back a character could still logically stop pushing forward, regroup and wait that day to have their spells become available again. It is 100% not metagaming because the character knows full well what is required for their spells to come back.
>Is he not allowed to want a long rest?
no
could he potentially still completely work for 15 hours? Then he is not exhausted yet
what does the word exhausted mean to you if not spend?
>So if you don’t long rest, you still get your spells back then?
yes
the long rest is just flavor
you can completely remove it and just give everyone the same effects every day
>But you can just wait until enough time has passed
only if you want to insult your DM
which again I think is stupid
>Is he not allowed to want a long rest?
>no
>he is not exhausted yet
Wrong, a berserker archetype barbarian berserking literally makes him exhausted. It is literally in the rules, he gains a level of exhaustion just like if he didn’t sleep an entire day. You had early (wrongly) linked long resting to being tired and he is.
>So if you don’t long rest, you still get your spells back then?
>yes
Incorrect again. By the rules you literally get them back from the long rest. No long rest? No restoring of spell slots unless you have some other ability for it. Read the rules. You can divorce it from that but that would be a houserule and houserules are not the topic of discussion because you can houserule anything to be anything and they shouldn’t be treated as something universal on which to make judgment calls.
>But you can just wait until enough time has passed
>only if you want to insult your DM
>which again I think is stupid
Not an insult if that is what the characters would do in a given situation they are in. At that point they might still have encounters that run into them to “fill the quota” but that can approach metagaming itself. A good dm should respect the choices the characters make as their own and then just handle how the world and its inhabitants proceed or react because of the characters actions (or lack thereof).
You should really proofread your posts better as well, I can see why the other anon called you an ESL and I wonder if there some language barrier here.
>Incorrect again. By the rules
again this is not about the rules
this is about the balance intention behind it
>You should really proofread your posts better as well,
If you want to dismiss my posts as ESl garbage feel free to do so. To anyone reading it just shows you have no substantial argument and thus have to attack unrelated shit.
Because I am still correct
I didn’t dismiss your posts as ESL garbage which should be obvious. But you should still proofread better. The bigger ESL concern is one of connotation impacting your understanding of nuance regarding terms which might explain why you were so focused on an idea of being sleepy as a requirement for a long rest when it was repeatedly pointed out not to be the case at all.
>But you should still proofread better.
why? You focused on a word I have not once written
>sleepy
Not a single of my post includes that word you highlighted as a misunderstanding I caused
and again ultimately this is about game balance
the exhausting is just the justification
if they remove long rests for 5.5e they will still have daily spells
The point is there are not meant to be used like people suggest they abuse long rests or waiting for hours
This is why I bring up you being an ESL with a language barrier. You keep saying "tired" which is a synonym of "sleepy", and in fact "sleepy" is a better word for it since you seem to associate "tired" with needing sleep specifically. You have referenced not being able to rest due to not being tired all over this thread despite it being incorrect.
>tired
>you need to be tired to sleep
>a long rest is something special and not something you can do when you are not tired
>you are not fricking tired
>you are not tired
>you are metagaming
>you try to sleep but can't
See?
>the exhausting is just the justification
>if they remove long rests for 5.5e they will still have daily spells
Yeah if you change the rules the rules change. Getting your spells back requires a long rest in 5e. Long Rest does not require sleep. You can long rest when you aren't tired, you just can't long rest more than once per day. But knowing that a person might want to pull back and wait to be able to long rest again. As one anon mentioned, maybe the party pulls out their gaming set. Books, dice, some miniatures and plays a rousing games of roleplay in Agencies & Accountants, which you wanted to actually have inflict Exhaustion but then you wanted sitting in bed to inflict exhaustion too.
Knowing that long resting gets your spells back and wanting to long rest due to that is not metagaming.
>since you seem to associate "tired" with needing sleep specifically.
I specifically said that it also applies to races who don't have to sleep because it is about getting rid of exhaustion
so no tired fits better than sleepy because it is about exhaustion but not sleep
>Yeah if you change the rules the rules change.
the question I want you to think about is not if a rule makes sense but why it is there?
The game is balanced around not abusing long rest like this
>Knowing that long resting gets your spells back and wanting to long rest due to that is not metagaming.
waiting 15 hours absolutely is because they would never do that in-universe
>I specifically said that it also applies to races who don't have to sleep because it is about getting rid of exhaustion
>so no tired fits better than sleepy because it is about exhaustion but not sleep
But you don't need to be Exhausted to long rest. Greater Restoration removes levels of exhaustion for example, so with money to burn you could still avoid ever sleeping on any race once if you have access to that spell. Literally don't feel tired at all.
You can still long rest though despite that, because being sleepy, being tired and being exhausted are not required to taking a Long Rest. By your logic someone would get their spells back via just casting Greater Restoration or could use Greater Restoration to avoid resting ever because they'd be able to cast it once per day and get their spells back once per day since you want to houserule disconnecting spells back form long resting.
>Knowing that long resting gets your spells back and wanting to long rest due to that is not metagaming.
>waiting 15 hours absolutely is because they would never do that in-universe
How are you dictating what someone else would or wouldn't do? If your car runs out of gas, you want to stop to refill the tank. If your quiver runs out of arrows, you want to stop to refill the quiver. If your cleric runs out of spell slots they want to stop to refill it as well and they do it by taking a long rest. Since they can only do that once per day, they may then pull back, set up a defensible position and hunker down until they are ready again the next day. That is NOT metagaming. It may be a bad idea, but it absolutely isn't metagaming.
>But you don't need to be Exhausted to long rest.
Not the exhausted mechanic
But you need to be tired
otherwise there is no recovering
that is just logical
>How are you dictating what someone else would or wouldn't do?
In what world is it realistic to spend 15 hours in critical condition and then 8 hours sleeping technically still in critical condition in enemy territory
again if shit is that bad any logical group would retreat
but not fricking abuse the long rest to fricking stay there and use long rest like a med center
>But you need to be tired
That isn't correct though. You literally, literally don't need to be tired. What is "tired" to you? Some nebulous phantom factor? DEFINE tired as you use it.
Is tired as having spent your resources? Why is casting all your spells not something that tires you? Why is having 1 hp not something that would be considered tired? Why is literally being exhausted not being tired?
And even then, none of that is required to long rest. You can have full HP, all spell slots, all expendables etc and you're still able to long rest your once per day. Unless you are using tired in some phantom, nebulous ESL way you need to define "tired" as you keep referencing it because any English use of the term is literally not something needed to Long Rest.
>How are you dictating what someone else would or wouldn't do?
>In what world is it realistic to spend 15 hours in critical condition and then 8 hours sleeping technically still in critical condition in enemy territory
If you can set up a defensible location it might be the best choice you have. But that was never even the example being discussed. Look at the OP
>"Yep, looks like we blew our best spells on that 'super tough' encounter to blow it out of the water. We'll head back outside, take the rest of the day off, and return the next morning. It's been only one fight, but better safe than sorry."
>we'll head back outside
Wow, look at that, you're wrong.
>DEFINE tired as you use it.
You need to be able to sleep several hours in a row without naturally waking up
Again next weekend please feel free to try it
after 8 hours sleep wake up
do shit for an hour
and then try again to sleep several hours in a row
you wont be able to
And even if you manage an hour you wont feel rested
>Wow, look at that, you're wrong.
We are not discussing the OP example. Please follow the thread
Or don't.
>You need to be able to sleep several hours in a row without naturally waking up
But as mentioned, some races NEVER need sleep. Pic related Thri-kreen for example. By your definition they are never tired and thus would never be able to long rest... which isn't true.
And the Greater Restoration spell removes exhaustion, you literally aren't tired after casting it and don't need to sleep.
You are still going back to sleeping and it is still completely wrong.
You can only long rest once per day, I've always said that. But you can still do other stuff to pass the time, like have a vigorous discussion about language and rules.
Long resting and sleeping are not the same thing unless you house rule it to be that way.
>But as mentioned, some races NEVER need sleep.
yes which is why I expanded to restore exhaustio
but the same rules apply
if anything it makes more sensible because you can sleep for an hour and not feel rested at all
the point is that restoration
>You can only long rest once per day, I've always said that.
Then it is even worse to wait 15 hours in critical condition in enemy territory and then long rest
that is a worse argument
>Long resting and sleeping are not the same thing unless you house rule it to be that way.
No long rest is specifically a core mechanic this game is build around
its like ignoring concentration for spells because you don't like it
The spells are balanced around concentration
the spells are balanced around limited long rests.
>That isn’t metagaming unless you give them a reason they would want to continue despite that
I can not imagien any situation where they wouldn't be punished for sitting around for a day and doing nothing
In fact if there were no time pressure every single dm worth anything would punish them harshly for that transgression and pull some punishment out of their ass
How the frick do you disrespect the game and your DM this much and then think that will go well? Do you spit at your dm openly on the table?
Exactly. There would need to be some other reason why they would not want to stop and restore, because stopping to test itself is not metagaming. There are plenty of reasons why they might not such as a time limit or having to worry about their presence already being given away. The world continues and operates logically just like the characters do which might in turn make taking a long rest a bad idea despite having exhausted their assets.
Your diction is fricking hilarious though
>PUNISH THEM HARSHLY
>THAT TRANSGRESSION
>DISRESPECT THE GAME AND YOUR DM
>YOU SPIT AT YOUR DM OPENLY
Absolutely hilarious. There is no need to punish a character for acting sensibly and negative side effects of when they make bad choices aren’t punishment, it is the foreseeable outcomes of their own actions. If the players have exhausted their capabilities after only a few encounters due to poor planning and wish to retreat to recuperate rather than risk their lives fighting further when odds are against them then that is fine. That may have consequences of its own but that is a good thing in a living world. Players are allowed to fail.
>Absolutely hilarious. There is no need to punish a character for acting sensibly
anon if they think time is not ever important unless I specifically state it then they are moronic
Its basically telling your DM
>you know all that effort you do to make sure time moves forward when we are not around and you always make sure stuff happens even while we are not around NPCs
>we just going to ignore all of that and pretend your setting is complete dogshit where time doesn't matter
Would you not feel insulted?
You kidding me? I fricking love when players make bad choices, it is the best kind of comedy. I give players all the rope they want and if they want to hang themselves that is on them.
But sometimes pulling back to regroup is not a bad choice and certainly isn’t metagaming. If an Archer runs out if arrows for his magic bow and wants to go to town to get more that is not metagaming because that is how he might restock his supply unless he might find some where he is. The situation he is in might make that not a feasible choice but it is still a choice and could be better for him than “we’ll press on and I’ll” try to punch these ghosts instead or use my bow like a club”. Likewise if the cleric is out of spells, he may wish to have the party pull back and regroup to restore his own resource of spells, which happens after a long rest.
Sometimes a party finds itself in a bad situation and has no Golden options, so decides to try playing it safer as they see it as the lesser of two evils.
>But sometimes pulling back to regroup is not a bad choice and certainly isn’t metagaming.
Only if your setting is unrealistic and falling back for a whole day or several as we have discussed earlier has no obvious bad repercussions
>But sometimes pulling back to regroup is not a bad choice and certainly isn’t metagaming.
>Only if your setting is unrealistic and falling back for a whole day or several as we have discussed earlier has no obvious bad repercussions
It isn’t unrealistic when the alternative is pressing forward anyway and getting captured, killed or worse. It isn’t metagaming because all choices have repercussions. Sometimes none of them are ideal. You taking it as a personal insult if your players want to pull back seems a bit worrisome. You seem very railroady if you won’t let the players make their own choices. Players should be allowed to fail even if it ruins your “story” because it isn’t just your story..
>It isn’t unrealistic when the alternative is pressing forward anyway and getting captured, killed or worse
anon stop being so fricking dishonest
the example was that if time isn't an issue then you shoudl restore after every fight and just all spellslots
even with your moved goalpost that is still bullshit
>You seem very railroady if you won’t let the players make their own choices.
Yeah but the choice to spit the dm in the face usually has bad repercussions
>Players should be allowed to fail even if it ruins your “story” because it isn’t just your story..
what are you talking about? your hypothetical players don't care about story at all
what story has players stand around for 15 hours then sleep for 8 and then kill 2 goblins and then 15 hours of standing 8 hours of sleeping
>the example was that if time isn't an issue then you shoudl restore after every fight and just all spellslots
Which, in that vacuum of "all other things equal" is true. Of course time is always a concern, even without a ticking clock because the world changes as time passes. So no, you're wrong in that example too.
>let the players make their own choices
>bad repercussions
>spit the dm in the face
Players making choices isn't spitting in the DM's face. You seem like a terrible, vindictive DM that takes personal insult to players making their own decisions and try to metagame to punish them for it.
>Players should be allowed to fail even if it ruins your “story” because it isn’t just your story.
>what are you talking about? your hypothetical players don't care about story at all
They care about what they care about. The "story" isn't something written and fully planned out in advance. The story is the one the DM and the players make together via the way the players interact with the world and how the world interacts with the players. Choosing not to act is still a choice and action. If the players decide not to go kill the lich before he brings in 10,000 years of darkness and infinite undead because they feel legalizing gay marriage in a kingdom is more important that is their choice. It may result in 10,000 years of darkness when the lich wins but players have the right to make that decision and the world should be developed and reasonable enough to account for any player action, even if they want to do something different from what you had intended. The players not going to go kill the goblins resulting in "PUNISHMENT" via something like the lich appearing immediately to kill them session 1 would be stupid.
Again, knowledge that you get spells back once per day after resting and using that to plan your course of actions, tactics and strategy is not metagaming.
>Of course time is always a concern
That is literally my point but okay
> So no, you're wrong in that example too.
so then so are you?
>Players making choices isn't spitting in the DM's face
of course not. what a dishonest way to portray what I said
>So no, you're wrong in that example too.
>so then so are you?
No. In your "there are no consequences for spending time" idea then it isn't metagaming to long rest and would be metagaming not to. It isn't a reasonable example since time is always a concern in some way but within that special "all other things equal" example then long resting isn't metagaming and it would be metagaming not to. So no, you're wrong.
>Of course time is always a concern
>That is literally my point but okay
But here is the thing, time isn't the ONLY concern. Players might press on and get fricking wrecked for it and so they might choose to pull back, delay and rest up because they don't want risk getting in over their heads. This might lead to them losing their opportunity in that dungeon or the dungeon inhabitants preparing for the regrouped players to make their lives hell. It might even lead to the players failing to succeed their quest entirely. But if they push on, get in over their heads and die that would also be a failure. Pulling back when you have expended your resources such as HP and Spells, regrouping and waiting so you can long rest in that scenario is not metagaming at all.
>Players might press on and get fricking wrecked for it and so they might choose to pull back
Again pull back is not the argument
I literally argued in favor of retreating
the argument is that you set up a long rest and use it like a portable hospital so you don't have to retreat and can stay there
>the argument is that you set up a long rest and use it like a portable hospital so you don't have to retreat and can stay there
>"Yep, looks like we blew our best spells on that 'super tough' encounter to blow it out of the water. We'll head back outside, take the rest of the day off, and return the next morning. It's been only one fight, but better safe than sorry."
No, you're still wrong about the thrust of the discussion.
But again, staying inside might be the best case you have. Perhaps you snuck in and there are enemies behind? Perhaps the cavern entrance collapses so you can't retreat? Perhaps it has appeared to only been straight path so staying where you are is safer and more logical than going back outside since then you can keep a closer eye on the enemies and not lose ground? Barricade the doors, set up some traps and other options.
Hell in DnD it is even easier since there is a wide variety of ExtraDimensional spells such as Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion that can whisk you away during your long rest. A rope trick only lasts so long but you can keep casting it during a portion of the wait for example.
So no, even in that scenario where they don't want to retreat and want to try long resting inside the dungeon, it isn't metagaming.
>We'll head back outside
still in danger and near the base
I really make little difference between inside and outside here as you just said inside could be more safe and outside could be just as dangerous
retreating is back to the village
>Hell in DnD it is even easier since there is a wide variety of ExtraDimensional spells such as Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion
yeah level 1 adventurers sure
>yeah level 1 adventurers sure
Not just discussing level 1 adventurers, discussing long rests and what constitutes metagaming.
But even for level 1 adventurers holding up may be the best option. Turn a siege inside out, siege within a siege. It may also be a bad option, but it is still an option they may wish to try for in character reasons and that isn’t metagaming.
>Not just discussing level 1 adventurers,
yes we were
at least I was
we specifically kept it low
higher levels are more complicated with spells allowing for more safety in enemy territory
I mean I said so earlier but whatever this is for hours now and I have to defend myself from several groups who all move the goalpost somewhere else
all i wanted to say is that I think player etiquette is to not abuse DM mistakes
Imagine not only being 80IQ but also a stubborn ESL lmao
The DM is the universe
If the players had the option to pick up a magic item that gave them infinite gold, would they take it? Yes they would. As the DM your job is not to give the players the option to have infinite gold. This shouldn't be difficult for you to understand. Tabletop is a game. People want to win the game. Your job is to keep the PCs in check.
It's FUN being told 'no'. It's FUN being told 'you can't do that'. At least it can be. You need pleasure and pain to have experiences. You are the universe as DM, your job is to provide a pain mechanism when the PCs are behaving in ways that "game" the system. Maybe they get a magic item that makes infinite gold, but they crash the economy. Maybe they spent a week clearing out a goblin burrow that should've taken a day, and the goblins called for reinforcements, or sent a messenger. And now there's an army of hobgoblins ready to raze the village that offered a bounty on the goblin burrow's destruction. Shit like this isn't hard to come up with. But it does require some /effort/ from you as a DM. So you can whine and pout as much as you want and be a lazy cry baby, or you can nut up and put a little effort into creating a living, breathing world where player actions and inactions have consequence, that is fun to play in
Do you want to be a good DM? Or do you want to be a shitty DM? It's your choice. I can't tell you what to do.
>People want to win the game.
Against who? one of the first things I got about DND was that it is not a game and has no winner
>Do you want to be a good DM?
for bad players no I don't want to be? If they are not wiling to make this a good experience for me then I would not DM at all
if they are antagonistic I would TPK them and say goodbye
I rather have good players who do not treat this as a game you can win
because you literally can't
>I rather have good players who do not treat this as a game you can win
>because you literally can't
But that's wrong. Not dying is winning. Beating the bad guy is winning. Every time your character survives an encounter, it's an encounter they won. They beat the encounter. That's what winning is.
>But that's wrong. Not dying is winning.
Against who? Without an enemy there is no winning
and if the DM tries to kill you you will die
>Every time your character survives an encounter, it's an encounter they won.
not if I have to fudge a number for them to win
>That's what winning is.
But you understand the DM is not metagaming to make it as challenging as possible right? I mean I always try to find the sweetspot where it is fun but challenging
if you then in response try to abuse game mechanic beyond their intention how is that fair or fun for anyone?
>not if I have to fudge a number
>cheating at a tabletop game
Do you seriously?
early on I did. I didn't want to TPK my group in their first fight
I didn't understand that I should always try to kill my PCs.
If the enemies you're using want to kill the PCs then they should be trying to do that, yes.
Should I use my meta knowledge of their HP and feats and other stuff the enemies themselves would not know to achieve that?
Because as far as I am concerned that is the same as you suggest players do
use everything they can
Then you haven't read anything I've posted at all. The players should have THEIR CHARACTERS use everything they can. The characters the players are controlling know when they're out of spell slots. They know that resting restores spell slots. They know that without spell slots they're less likely to beat the bad guys and more likely to die.
>The players should have THEIR CHARACTERS use everything they can.
But the enemies shouldn't?
The enemies should use everything they can as well. The enemies are characters in the world who are trying to win, just like the player characters are.
>The enemies should use everything they can as well.
Then I should use meta knowledge
because by the same reason you argue players know long rest meta knowledge I can justify any and all meta knowledge being used
So they are dead. No DM can lose this with that much power
>The enemies are characters in the world
>Then I should use meta knowledge
How could you possibly have reached that conclusion? Are you actually a moron? I really, honestly, genuinely think you should get tested.
>How could you possibly have reached that conclusion?
anon long rests don't in universe heal you like they do
that is a concession a game mechanic makes
that is meta knowledge you have but shouldn't have
you can argue about spellslots but a PC should only attempt a short rest to get back on their feet
any justification you can use for players nowing about long rest I can use for every mechanic to abuse for enemies
>I really, honestly, genuinely think you should get tested.
are you seriously too moronic to understand that game mechancis are abstractions and as a character you wouldn't have these abstractions like the restoring of long rests or level ups?
>that is a concession a game mechanic makes
Yes, the game makes a concession by having healing in the universe happen super fast. If you don't like it, play a different game.
so do you think level ups happen instantly as well?
No the abstraction is that healing takes time and for game mechanics we use a long rest to get back the resources
that are balanced around not regular long rests
In universe you don't instantly get everything back
in-universe its more like a stamina bar
>In universe you don't instantly get everything back
Then how come my character in the universe where they live and everything is real for them gets everything back at the end of a long rest? The answer is that D&D is absurdist. Nothing makes sense to you or to me, but for the character in the world who has lived with those rules for their whole life and that's the way that things are.
>Then how come my character in the universe where they live and everything is real for them gets everything back at the end of a long rest?
That is an abstraction
the same way attributes like strength and charisma work with numbers
do you think for the characters in universe those abstractions are the same? No. those numbers exist on a meta gaming level
exactly like long rests
>but for the character in the world who has lived with those rules for their whole life and that's the way that things are.
that also applies to level ups and numbers?
is this how modern DnD players are? Every mechanic is in-universe? Do the dice exist in universe? Do they know about dice?
>That is an abstraction
No, drinking poison having the damage go straight to the temp HP I got from hearing a good speech is an abstraction. When my character sleeps and gets back their spell slots, that's real for them.
>anon long rests don't in universe heal you like they do
That is moronic. After one or two long rest and getting healed your character would know how they work. By that logic you should obscure the players hit points from themselves as well and roll all rolls for them since they can’t accurately judge how well they do.
>That is moronic. After one or two long rest and getting healed your character would know how they work.
by that logic so would level ups
Yes, you would know that as you gain experience you would become better at what you do. Why is that surprising?
no no that is the abstraction
the abstraction is that you get better through experience
the game mechanic that no matter what you do you don't get gradually better but only at every 4 levels
You get better at your class every level, you just get the ASI from some of those levels. There is such a thing as breakthroughs. You don’t have it until you are there even if you are close.
As I said, by your logic you should just roll everything for the players and not let them know any of their own stats like hp, strength, etc. players tell you what they want to do and then you just tell them the results.
Or why even have players at that point? Just roll dice against yourself.
People in the world are expected to know they can cast and memorize only so many spells per day and at a time, they know they can rest up once they have exhausted themselves and then with a clear head be ready to go again. This is not super nebulous. If you wanted to houserule that it is then be prepared for players to completely mock it by acting dumbfounded every morning when they heal and gain magical resources back and make a HUGE deal out of it. Hell, I’d vote to start experimenting immediately to discover how this miraculous healing and magic works, wasting additional days just on this.
>Holy shit guys, I can cast spells again!
>I thought you were unable to cast any more?
>me too but not anymore!
>WHAT IS HAPPENING
>There is such a thing as breakthroughs
so it is unrelated to experience and you don't gradually get better in universe
then these breakthroughs every 4 levels are also something the character should figure out
again I am not saying being rested after sleep is crazy
but the entire process of 8 hours giving you all your health doesn't happen in universe it is a concession the game makes to abstract healing
>As I said, by your logic you should just roll everything for the players and not let them know any of their own stats like hp, strength, etc. players tell you what they want to do and then you just tell them the results.
I just don't wnat players making meta decisions
I don't know why metagaming is fine when your players do it
>the entire process of 8 hours giving you all your health doesn't happen in universe
It literally does. It happens. It is real and material. Perhaps hitpoints aren’t just meatpoints hence why resting restores them.
Do people know that when they are tired they need sleep or is that metagaming too?
>It literally does. It happens.
no your wound of an arrow might take weeks
it is more about you resting and restoring your stamina
for gaming purposes it is abstract
the same way we deal with food and don't count calories in universe
the 8 hour rest is after a long day. you can't just do it willy nilly
both from a design balance perspective and just pure logic
you can't get a full rest if you are not exhausted
>Do people know that when they are tired they need sleep or is that metagaming too?
BUt that is the entire argument
you are not sleeping when tired
you are sleeping when hurt
you literally just pointed out how in universe it is for tiredness but in this metagaming version where you do it after ever 2 goblins it is about just healing injuries and spellslots
not general exhausting
you are not even tired. you just slept for 8 hours and woke up 5 minutes ago and now you argue you wanna sleep 8 hours again to heal the one arrow and get your spellslot back
you are not tired
you are metagaming
>no your wound of an arrow might take weeks
>it is more about you resting and restoring your stamina
There are alternate rules where a long rest takes a week, it sound like you should use those instead.
>you are not tired
But you have reduced your other resources and you know it too and you know how those are restored in the same way you know how eating resolves hunger. Spells don’t exist in real life but they do in the DnD universes and they know how they are restored in the same way you know eating resolves hunger. If you act like people don’t realize that it would have consequences that must be logically addressed as well. Do people know how many spells they can cast per long rest? Would a cleric keep trying to cast spells despite being out of slots because they don’t know how it works? Would they not cast any spells because they have no idea how they come back? No, they know that they need to rest and then pray to their god to get their spells back. This is not an abstraction, they literally must go through these steps.
anon the argument is
>one group of two goblin
>ambush them
>use fireball
>fight is over
>go to bed for 8 hours before you engage the next two goblins
you are not fricking tired from spending one slot
it takes a day to exhaust you and that is the end of it
you have cantrips and weapons. Fricking stop making your wasteful a problem
You are not tired but you know how many spells you can use, how many you have used and how you get those back. It is not metagaming. A long rest doesn’t even need to necessarily be sleeping and for some races it never is. A car has so much gas in the tank before you need to stop and refill. You might stop at a gas station to use the restroom and fill up a gas tank, but can also stop for just one or the other. A cleric has so many spells in their tank before they need to do the same. It isn’t metagaming and if you want them not to restore their capabilities using the methods they know in universe are required to do it they need to do for that then you should give them further in universe reason, such as a time limit or a a word where enemies realize that they are in the dungeon and now are being given time to further react and prepare/escape.
you need to be tired to sleep
I would maybe let be talked to that a short rest should restore some spellslots to be consistent and I can see 5.5e going there but a long rest is something special and not something you can do when you are not tired
>you need to be tired to sleep
You don’t need to sleep for a long rest. Some races never sleep. They can still long rest.
>Some races never sleep. They can still long rest.
as a concession
they restore their exhaustion somehow
and that is when spellslots come back
but for it you need to be exhausted somehow
>but for it you need to be exhausted somehow
Exhausted of your slots or hp is a “somehow”. You absolutely do not need to be physically tired in the sense of the “exhausted” status or our real life idea of tired to long rest.
If I remember the rules correctly you can only long rest once per day anyway so people wishing to do so and normally long resting when they sleep would be waiting until they are physically tired anyway. But others are completely tireless and not only never sleep, they can’t sleep.
Knowing how much hp you have and how many spells you have and how you get them back isn’t metagaming. By that tortured logic casting a spell on someone that is hurt is metagaming too since how do you know how hurt they are?
>If I remember the rules correctly you can only long rest once per day anyway
yeah it is almost like the game is balanced around you only doing it after 4-6 encounters
>Knowing how much hp you have and how many spells you have and how you get them back isn’t metagaming.
of course it isn't
because those are abstractions of information the character has
but abusing long rests is metagaming
because the character wouldn't do it only the player who plays the game would make that decision
>a spell on someone that is hurt is metagaming too since how do you know how hurt they are?
I mean I roll the deathrolls in secret exactly because I think the players shouldn't know where they stand
I recommend it. Players are a lot more stressed about them since realistically no one should know how fine that person who just went down is
but that is a houserule and a different argumetn
My argument isn't so much about strictly adhering to RAW but more about a sort of code of honor between players and DM
>yeah it is almost like the game is balanced around you only doing it after 4-6 encounters
Absolutely, never said it wasn’t.
>a character wouldn’t do it
They absolutely might depending on what character. If you are at 1hp or 0 spell slots left or both, it is more meta gaming to NOT have the character want to long rest since they know well they are completely spent.
>hey bro, you are out of spells and everyone in the party is at death’s door without any way to restore left. Think we should retreat and recuperate?
>What?! But we have only fought 3 packs of monsters, we are obligated to continue! Heck, I’m not even sleepy!
If you want to ensure people get the recommended daily number of encounters then you can, as others mentioned, throw in an attack while resting encounter or even some other challenge as well since encounters don’t even need to be combat. That is fine (and won’t prevent them from long resting in the long run since they’ll just keep at it), but the players would be metagaming more by acting in an unrealistic way unless their character itself is suicidally foolhardy or has a major in character reason to continue.
>>hey bro, you are out of spells and everyone in the party is at death’s door
considering the argument is that it is the beginning of the dungeon and I am good at balancing this is a just a ridiculous example
also if I would allow that then I should also allow them to heal at all times
so it is also then they just used one spellsoot
yeah it is not skyrim
Your cantrips cost nothing
Now you’re metagaming again.
Since you are so good, I’m not certain why you are even arguing here since it will never come up or be relevant. Certainly you are not just avoiding the topic with a nonsequiter.
>yeah it is not Skyrim
>your cantrips cost nothing
There is opportunity cost. Really you are moving the goalposts here since that has nothing to do with the your prospect that a character wanting to rest since they are spent on their main resource is metagaming, as if they don’t know how they get that resource back and only associate resting with bedtime.
anon the game is balanced around you having a limited amount of spellslots
you should be punished for wasting your main resource
so now you have a few encounters without them
That's a false equivalence and I think you know it anon. If I shoot a guy and he doesn't go down, I'm not gonna ask myself if I got him in a vital organ and is he gonna go into shock soon, I'm gonna shoot him again.
Meanwhile, if I were to get jumped and cut by a mugger, I would not think to myself "right, I'm at twenty-five hit points now, and that was 2d6 sneak attack damage, clearly this guy is a third level rogue"
Well enemies don’t use the same classes as players so you wouldn’t think that anyway. Plus skills are a thing that can give you a sense of the capabilities of an enemy and I believe some archetypes and spells can get a more exact idea.
And you might realize other stuff. If you roll a 15 and miss an enemy and then a 16 and hit you have a good idea of how difficult they are to hit. The AC is abstract but you would still be able to convey the information to others regarding how difficult they are to hit.
There may be some abstraction to how it is seen in universe but characters would still know how testing restores their capabilities and that they can be exhausted in ways other than our real life exhaustion that needs sleep (rather than just resting).
>but for it you need to be exhausted somehow
Yes, my spell slots are exhausted. My mana pool. My reservoir of magicka.
nevertheless, you only get one long rest per 24 hour period. That's in the rules.
Yup and I mentioned it in the post above yours. So if you are exhausted as a berserker (you poor bastard) you can’t long rest more than once a day just like a cleric can’t when they have exhausted their spell slots. But both know that they can stop fighting for the rest of the day, wait and then rest to get their capabilities back.
>It isn’t metagaming and if you want them not to restore their capabilities using the methods they know in universe are required to do it they need to do for that then you should give them further in universe reason
>It isn’t metagaming and if you want them not to restore their capabilities using the methods they know in universe are required to do it then you should give them further in universe reason,
Fix’d. Had gone back and rephrased something but didn’t entirely delete my first version, leading to some strange nonsense repetition.
Keep moving those goal posts, imbecile.
until you understand
Around a newbie DM I would of course behave in predictable ways. I play suboptimally all the time as a player. But if we're on the tabletop forum I'm going to play devils advocate and make the (correct) argument that a good DM has an obligation to create well designed encounters that follow good design principles, including reasons for the party to participate in a way that removes the option to long rest spam the encounter to death with minimal risk for themselves
An equally good player has to use the freedom given reasonably and I would argue if you abuse long rest regardless of dm quality you are a bad player
>It's like how cops in the real world are trained to mag dump violent criminals.
>Comparing a police encounter to a fricking dungeon crawl
Absolute zero IQ
What, never seen SWAT raid a building?
>SWAT has the ability to mobile dozens of heavily armed agents on a urban location with the authority and funding of a legitimate law enforcement agency
>This is the same as 6 glorified mercenaries clearing out some half forgotten den in the middle of nowhere
because realistically in universe that doesn't heal him and restore him enough
it is like waiting until level 8 until you do a quest
metagaming wise yes you know you get your ASI then but realistically you have no way of knowing
>rest
>feel rested at the end of a rest
Hardcore metagaming.
no short rests are fine
Your moronic ass is acting like taking a whole ass day to rest is reasonable mid dungeons fight when you could effectively mrns your wounds with a 1 hour short rest, if the caster blow their load too early then sucks to suck, maybe don't be fricking moronic with your finite resources you allegedly int based mother fricker
The goal of raiding a place is to rely upon speed and violence to allow you to punch through defenders, achieve a specific objective, and frick off. Imagine if a swat team kicked the doors in at a drug bust, and fell back after the first time or two the gangbangers inside shot at them instead of pressing the assault, giving the remaining bangers time to reload, grab extra weapons, and hole up in fortified pockets of the house.
>The best thing to do to ward off ambushes is to go to sleep
First off, that's hilariously moronic. Secondly, the best way to not get ambushed as you sleep is to kill or run off everyone in the dungeon, then you rest while somebody watches the entrance. When shit pops off you have to commit, because falling back opens you to counterattacks unless you've thoroughly broken the enemy's back in your first strike.
>The goal of raiding a place is to rely upon speed and violence to allow you to punch through defenders
This depends on what exactly the party is attacking. An ambush or raid as you point out, relies on swiftness and fricking over the enemy when they're not expecting an attack. Clearing out a dungeon full of zombies isn't the same as a Trojan Horse style night raid. An attack on an intelligent opponent, with intelligent forces who rely on alarms and guard posts and sentries, would benefit from a fast, raid-style strike.
But even then, what are you complaining about? If the party goes on a night raid against an enemy encampment, and fricks off halfway through to go take a nap and get back resources, then why not have the enemy encampment launch their own counter-attack, realizing they're being raided? Why not have them call for reinforcements, or retreat, or do any number of things that 1) be reasonable and logical and 2) frick over the party and penalize them for not committing to the ambush
>what are you complaining about
Read the reply chain.
says it makes perfect sense to break off an ambush at the first bit of stiff resistance and rest, so as to, in his own words "be prepared to fight off an ambush"
>Clearing out a dungeon full of zombies isn't the same as a Trojan Horse style night raid.
I never said it was. The anon I replied to mentioned ambushes in the night, the purview of intelligent enemies the likes of which you would conduct a raid against. If you're clearing out nonintelligent enemies like rabid animals or mindless undead then a better tactic would be to conduct a methodical extermination by baiting the stupid things into a killbox.
The guy I've been arguing with would probably throw a shitfit if his players created trapped a pack of wolves and created a killbox with fire/smoke, something that our ancestors did for millenia, but this homie is out here crying over "muh that's not heroic" . Dude needs to take a reality pill
Why are so many GMs in this thread so adversarial to their players? Why are you doing your best to punishment the players?
Because it started with an OP that was players adversarial to the DM
i never had players who pulled this kind of shit or like you or OP who saw me as their enemy thank god
How was the OP situation adversarial to the GM?
>abuses game mechanic
>Your move, GM?
How was it not?
You have failed to convey any sense of urgency or a living world in your game, and your players are engaging with it as such. Without even being adversarial, this is very easy to achieve.
I consistently make sure the players are aware that things are constantly changing and moving in the Game World. Every time they leave/return to town after an extended period of time, you should show them clear signs of that advancement - political rivals in local guilds should be advancing plans, local nobility they're affiliated with should be having changes in their circumstances, etc.
My players don't take superfluous rests becaue they're always wondering "If we waste 2 days out here, what's going to happen back home? What's going to happen in the dungeon we didn't clear?" Even if I don't actually have any answers to those questions, creating a world that feels lived in will make players act like it. If you create a world that feels like fricking Skyrim, don't be surprised when your players sleep 40 hours to regain any expended resources.
I will also add, something I've found helps impress this on new players is running a "Cut Content" segment at the end of each session - I go over anything players might have missed, notes that weren't used, etc. It means players still get to appreciate your work as a GM that they might have missed, and it also means that they get some insight into how you're running your game and what they should expect.
e.g, you can tell them after they cleared the dungeon "There were 18 prisoners in the basement level initially, six died before you got there, another five were killed because of how long it took you to get through the dungeon," or "that courtier you ignored because Thradgar doesn't talk to Knife-Ears was a conspirator aligned against Lord Farquill. If you'd entertained them, they'd have warned you about the extra security around Farquill's vault."
It all helps players understand the consequences of their actions (And, if you have good players, they'll decide which consequences they WANT to eat - in most of my games, Thradgar's player would probably answer "Well it's a shame that elves can go frick themselves or our lives might have been easier.")
I agree with you for the most part but I used to have a DM that would make every single expedition have some forced time crunch and after a while it was just draining and frustrating. Sometimes its okay to let your players siege a bandit occupied fortress over the course of a few days. It's okay to let your players take a short rest. I'm aware of what it's like behind the DM screen. You can balance encounters accordingly.
I'm not accusing you of doing this but I just feel like it's worth pointing out, if you constantly throw a tight, arbitrary time crunch at your players, or brutally penalize them for taking rests in between fights, it will just feel video game-y and frustrating. This is also medieval era technology, moving armies takes months, sailing hemispheres takes months, if our party takes an extra 24 hours to clear out a bandit occupied fortress, it's just illogical if they come back to find the village they took the quest from razed by orcs.
Maybe in some cases things like that can be justified but if its constantly being thrown at them, a DM who's doing that is just being petty I think. Because DMs like that exist, if the party rests and the DM planned an encounter assuming they wouldn't rest, we all know DMs who've done petty things to frick over the party over it
Oh absolutely, this is operating under the assumed context of OP that is "My players are doing this all the time, and feel like there is never any consequences for fricking about." It's also one of the reasons I like to do cut content, it gives players a chance to point out if they feel they had no possible chance of achieving certain goals, so we can discuss it.
>I like to do cut content,
What does that mean?
as I said in
, going over and discussing any stuff I prepared for the session that didn't (and won't) get used/come up in the future. Clues and areas players missed, NPCs they decided not to interact with, plot threads they decided not to follow, etc. Usually it only takes 5-10 minutes of postgame chat to go over.
I started doing it during an intensely political game we were running, which was intentionally structured so players wouldn't have time to deal with every problem. Running a game like that naturally leads to a whole lot of "wasted" content, and because we jump between systems and settings a lot (this particular game was in Changeling: The Dreaming), I can't just tuck it aside to re-use for the future.
It turned out to be really good for both the players' and my own morale - I never feel like I've spent a week preparing something only for it to be ignored in favour of the players obsessing over the local pie shop or something, and they never feel bad for 'derailing' the session.
Oh, so it's like a 'what if' situation? Hm, that's interesting. Can't you just reuse NPCs and plot threads though? I've had DMs make me offers "Do you want to know what would've happened if you went left at the fork in the road, instead of right?" but I prefer not to know these things. I also wouldn't hold it against the DM if he cannibalized certain missed plot hooks, NPCs, encounters, etc and repurposed them later in cases where they can be re-used
I generally only reveal things I know definitely can't be reused, so if something has a chance of being used again I'll say "There was some stuff that's still relevant" and leave it at that. It definitely depends on your group, however, and whether they find it helpful/interesting, or frustrating.
This. It's important that your players not only know they can lose, but that losing actually has in-game consequences rather than just having a game over screen. That's important because... think of any horror videogame you've played. Any horror videogame that kills you too many times eventually stops being scary because Game Over just takes you out of the scary experience: there is no actual scary consequence for dying so it doesn't matter.
Ideally in a roleplay game they should be invested into the world. So if the plot is to defend the noble city of Aay from the encroaching empire of the evil Lord Bee, and our players completely wiener things up and they really were the only hope then the game shouldn't just end because they didn't do their job. The loss state should be that the city gets invaded and some characters they've gotten to know are killed or suffering. Equally though that doesn't mean the game just ends. At that point perhaps they choose to help others get out of the city and fight a guerilla war, go for aid, hassle the new regime. Perhaps they choose to stay and die in glory hopelessly defending it. Perhaps they choose to stay and submit to Lord Bee's authority, the city will continue in much the same way after all, the political game will just shift. Perhaps they will be rewarded for totally intentionally fricking up the defense.
The only hard rule of any table should be 'your character must have a semi-reasonable in-game motivation for being in this party and wanting to adventure, if they lose this you should retire this character and pick another'. As long as that rule is followed there should be some sort of motivation we can use to establish win or loss states in-game. My favourite characters are those who are just greedy and know it: a character who will do anything for money is easy to work with and they can be hired by all sorts of interesting buttholes.
The rest of the monsters in the dungeon, having heard your fight but not having been moronic enough to try and rush in to help the others, attack after you make camp. I need player three to roll perception at disadvantage to try and spot them moving outside the light of the fire.
>Thank you brave adventurers for rescuing my daughter before the kidnappers posted any more of her fingers to me.
>For your brave deeds, I bestow upon you...
>What do you mean, you kept leaving to take eight hour naps after every fight?
>Do you have idea what you've done?
>You've let me down, Son. You've all let yourselves down. Most importantly, you've let down Princess Sarah.
>The other noble kids are calling her Sarah Two Fingers now.
>Actually, I've changed my mind, get the frick out.
>You get a ten minute headstart. After that it's kill on sight.
>
>king doesnt have a wand, staff, or rod
I SERIOUSLY hope you're not using non-magical mortals as feudal lords in a high magic setting.
Don't worry, he's a Paladin and has a harem of formally evil sorceress that he redeemed through the power of havig 30 charisma below the belt.
Why would any of them tell him about the long rests, moron?
I am sure his daughter will tell him about all the missing fingers
also people here argue that it is a completely legitimate in-universe strategy
which means in the universe these fricking metagamers play entire armies take long rests
in fact all military has to revolve entirely about sleeping
>in fact all military has to revolve entirely about sleeping
yeah no one ever sleeps in the military in real life
We don't.
>I am sure his daughter will tell him about all the missing fingers
He was already aware of them in your own greentext, moron. He thought they got their as fast as they could and it just took them however long 6 fingers (8 if you count thumbs) is supposed to represent. So again, why would they tell him it only took that long thanks to all the LRs?
>your own greentext
Not his. Exaggerated from real events in one of my games. A player decided to take it upon himself to inform a grieving mother that her daughter wasn't coming home because the party wanted to refresh under Tiny Hut. The villain got spooked after half his fort went quiet and killed the hostage, before fleeing. I think he was trying to work it into an in-character apology, but he basically just said 'Wow! We would've made it, if we didn't stop for a nap.' We still bring it up to make fun of the player to this day.
Thos definitely happened!
>implying a monarch doesn't have enough connections in the church that he can't get his daughter's fingers restored magically
>implying a monarch who had to hire mercenaries wasn't aware of the dangers surrounding rescuing his daughter
>implying the princess didn't hire the kidnappers herself to break up the monotony of her daily routine
Why would they even need to be magically restored?
The Princess should just have a long rest and all her fingers would be back.
The King should just have a long rest and his princess would be back.
Long rests restore hitpoints, not severed body parts. That’s the rules, cast your regeneration.
so wounds are not closed? arrowheads which hit you are still stuck in you and bleeding?
what are hitpoints even?
I do this except I don't even save my spells for the tough encounters. I always use my highest level spell on the first available target regardless of what they are. It's a lot of fun but my party is constantly whining about me doing that. I'm not going to stop though.
I rarely see this past level 5 or so, but mainly because by then spellcasters have enough spell slots and scrolls to never need to rest that much.
Nine times out of ten my party rests, it's because the non casters are dying and need to stop to heal up ASAP
Knowing my players, they'd just tell the wizard to help carry gear/loot and work as a torch- /lantern bearer.
They're big on teamwork and people pulling their own weight.
I tell my players:
>You have chosen well, and you feel a slight shift in the world around you. Everything is the same, but different.
I stow away the 5e DMG, and bring up my copy of B/X instead.
>Your characters keep their abilities, stats and spells from the previous edition. For the duration of their lives...
If you use a resource management system, it should tie into the gameplay loop of the system.
Either do it like pre-WotC D&D/OSR stuff and make a long rest cost you and be something you really don't want to do outside of downtime or other natural breakpoints, or just don't use daily resources and make everything encounter based.
>or just don't use daily resources and make everything encounter based.
Wait stop you can't tell people to play 4e, something bad will happen!
4e does have dailies, and other daily resources like healing surges.
It also has optional rules where recovering them is decoupled from actual resting, and you instead recover after a number of encounters.
But a bunch of spinoffs, such as Strike!, don't, and I think they are better for it.
>treat NPCs and creatures in your tabletop campaign like video game enemies, give them limited pathfinding and shitty pathing AI
>players treat your video game NPCs and creatures like the dumb loot pinatas they are and take potshots from a safe distance instead of dropping their trousers and inviting the enemy to sodomize them for the sake of fairness
>WTF NOOOOOOO YOU CANT DO THAT AAAAAAAHHHHH
That's a logical course of action if they aren't on hard time limit.
Although enemies will also take time to rest and prepare for their return.
have any of you actually tried to sleep when you are not tired?
If time doesn't matter then time doesn't matter. Just post up for a full 24 hours.
time always matters but okay 24 hours posting up
you get 1 level of exhausting for ever 8 hours you try to sleep but can't
>you get 1 level of exhausting for ever 8 hours you try to sleep but can't
Why would he try to sleep before he's tired? My character has a gaming set he can use to pass the time until he gets sleepy.
>My character has a gaming set he can use to pass the time until he gets sleepy.
1 level of exhaustion for the pure boredom of 8 hours
you never had a fricked up sleep schedule?
>pure boredom
How could my character possibly be bored when he's gaming? Why are you on a forum about games if you think games are boring?
If you don't want them to rest then just send multiple harrassing parties to keep them awake at night. If they leave the entire area to do something else this give them the same dungeon. There's also anti-magic auras.
Me? I would probably just let them rest and continue. Then again, I don't play with children, morons, or Republicans so my players just tend to play the encounter and have fun.
I hate the other way too.
>you are traveling to your destination
>you encounter an encampment of gnolls
Well I’m just level 2 and spells are limited so I’ll cast bless and then hang back throwing some cantrips
>alright good encounter guys, you don’t encounter anything else today and all rest for the night before you arrive at your destination
Why do I even bother.
It's the DMs job to push the party as far as they can handle it and create fun encounters
Like a rollercoaster or an intense movie
I have this idea for enemies that intentionally harass the sleeping players with loud instruments as they try to sleep.
This wakes the players up and they're not allowed to go back to sleep until they defeat the enemies. But the enemies run into the dungeon if you start going after them. If you follow them in then you get ambushed. If you chase them off and try to sleep again then they come back out an hour later and repeat the process.
So you either have to fight the ambush or come up with a clever way to ambush the toot-ers.
Elves don’t sleep. Neither do many other races like warforged or reborn.
Even beyond that the party would just start readying actions to shoot them when they poke their heads out and then rest anyway, just delaying the long rest a little bit.
Elves meditate, this would interrupt that as well.
But yeah, they could just ready actions for an hour and delay their long rest.
Except the players don't know how this encounter works.
They might ready actions for half an hour, get impatient, and walk into the ambush.
Or maybe you have them roll a stealth check at the end of the hour. If they roll well then the toot-ers come out and get ambushed. If not, they stay inside. Now the players are stuck waiting.
If you don’t give them a time limit they’ll be content to keep waiting. If they get impatient they’ll still have one guy on watch (a long rest is 8 hours but only 6 of that needs to be fully relaxed so you can trade watch shifts) so whoever is on watch can be the guy readying actions and shooting the malevolent mariachis when they show up. Even if that interrupts his rest that is still damaging the bad guy barbershop quartet and costing them resources as well while the party just keeps trying to sleep, extending their long rest potentially into days.
The third room is filled with an unscented black dust. Hey quick question what's your light source?
A long rest requires 8 uninterrupted hours by RAW.
If you want to wait until 23 hours until morning again I'm going to roll 23d6 and if I roll 8 times consecutively with no 1s then sure.
Yeah, and if it fails they’ll just keep trying until it works or until they die. If they felt they were too weak to continue before why would they continue after becoming even weaker?
Also do you roll those every time for every long test? Or even when they aren’t resting? You should be consistent.
>Sure thing.
>Refreshed and with a good breakfast, you enter the dungeon again, and... passive perception of 17? Very good. You distinctly remember the altar in the back having a chalice on it. Empty, of course, and made of some worthless metal, clearly a fake of the real Holy Chalice you seek, so you paid no mind, but today you notice something very peculiar about this chalice. Mainly, its absence. It being gone raises an ominous proposition. Something from further in the dungeon has tampered with this room.
>You'd like to actively look around? Good. Twenty one? Of all the sounds you might hear in a dusty ruin of stone and dirt, the bending of yew is very distinctly not one of them. You look behind you and, up in the rafters, there's at least seven, eight archers. Though you want to scream, another sound catches your ear, the clanking of metal plates from just beyond the doorways along the chamber.
>It seems the dungeon has found the bodies of those you killed before, and has laid an ambush with all the hands they could spare. These odds are overwhelming. And from behind the altar rises the toughest of the bunch, armed with a festering bow of rot and poison.
>Though you escape with your lives, you know that they will remain vigilant for days. Better care must be taken during your excursions to cover your tracks or to catch them before they realize they are being attacked. You would need a lot more people to siege these orcs to starvation... if there isn't a back exit, that is.
>You know what? You have good insight, I'll give you this one. Should there be a back exit to this dungeon, a savvy tactician could remove the chalice from its resting place and hide it elsewhere. What you are looking for may not even be here anymore because you gave the enemy time to get away with it.
Just another way of inflicting a time limit really, but rather one they created themselves by starting the excursion. And that is fine, it makes sense for the enemies to realize something is up. Players would have been smarter to have rested in the dungeon itself rather than retreating so they can better control the flow of information, though that still raises the risk of things like alarms being set off.
I usually create small areas in dungeons where the normal residents rest so the players can make a makeshift quick resting place
they have never abused this to make long rests but for short rests it is helpful.
I would say that it's not necessarily a "time limit." It's a combination of a bunch of things including
>combat volume (your guns or screams will be heard the next room over)
>"patrol" progress (doesn't have to be a literal patrol, could just be some gobbo antics)
>obviousness of conflict (broken/burned furniture, blood, bodies, etc.)
>unaccounted for persons at dinner time (biggest "time limit" factor of the list, dungeon pop dwindling is huge cause for concern)
I argue that a party could take two or three long rests in dungeons if they cover their tracks well enough. If there's less people but no sign of conflict, and the denizens might just think they are going missing, not getting killed. Suspicious and deserving investigation, but there's too little information to cut to the part where the boss packs up and runs. The way one disposes of the evidence of conflict is something each class can do in their own ways, like the rogue stashing them in a closet, the wizard burning them in a fireplace lit with prestidigitation, fighters just hauling the bodies off swiftly to the growing pile at the front door, or cannibalistic barbarians butchering their foes into rations. I want to support this creativity.
I'm all for safe rooms in dungeons. They should be in ways where they can overwatch their past progress and attack any patrols if the watch is willing to break the long rest of others or go solo.
I was playing a video game the other week and it forced me to generate enough fatigue from movement / attacks / spells cast / taking damage to even begin a long rest to begin with. Seems like a decent solution along with the other reasonable stuff about people moving and things not just being inanimate outside of the parties view.
I mean I don't want to start it but if my players ever pulled the bullshit people here suggest I guess we had to fully rework how resting works