Zelda. Discussion. Motivation. Understanding.

I think about this reply sometimes. There's a lot I could say about Zelda, and a lot to say anyway. But the hurdle is always finding the motivation to do so. I don't think I can feel comfortable putting the amount of effort im about to without a dissection of the meta contextual aspect of discussion. threads, replies, or in other words, expressions, and responses.

This reply made me wonder how many others are like this. How many of the type of people I "should" be drawing to these threads simply don't participate for reasons like this. I always wonder how so many people, can possibly reply to a thread for no other reason that to ego boost or validate their feelings. How many just come to get in a circle and jerk about how much they don't like someone or something. Nobody engages with the material.

It doesn't matter what one says Whether they're right or not. This is a place for social gathering. Social rules don't disappear due to anonymity. I remember hearing somebody say, "if we got rid of all identifying characteristics, would discrimination stop?" and somebody else said "no, people will always find something to differentiate and discriminate".

So then, back to the reply. What Is the point of linking it? Something about it bugged me. Why would you read walls of text just to "consider" it and move on? Especially when disagreement or lack of understanding was expressed? What type of threads does one like that even move on to? There are barely any discussion threads.

My point is, what is the point of not saying anything? What other thread is so important? What does "consider" even mean? At first my thought was "how do I appeal to people like this". But now I question whether there's a point. What is the difference between a "troll" and a "good poster" if the "good poster" never posts? Nothing. Infact there's a negative difference.

I don't believe there's anybody to appeal to. I don't believe there's anybody who actually values discussion.

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Best 2d zelda game?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Not sure exactly yet. Have only played a couple. But personally so far? Minish Cap.

      Lol you were successful. Not that I think it was particularly hard for you to be.

      >What is the difference between a "troll" and a "good poster" if the "good poster" never posts? Nothing. Infact there's a negative difference.
      You've convinced me anon, I won't simply ignore your thread this time. Here, have this.

      >You've convinced me anon, I won't simply ignore your thread this time. Here, have this.

      Are you really that same anon? Don't feel like you are. But if you are. I don't understand why you don't just give you own answer for the theory I propose.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Are you really that same anon?
        no I am not. bad word choice on my part. I am a different anon that has been seeing your posts and ignoring them every time. I have no interest in discussing zelda games.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >I have no interest in discussing zelda games.

          I'm guessing you just like posting lewds then.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Zelda 2

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      4 swords, easy

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Ys Oath in Felghana

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        dont disgrace ys like that. 2d zelda is trash

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Crusader of Centy

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Now that I've gotten that out of the way. I can somewhat delve into the actual videogame stuff...soon. Briefly, in anticipation of the "blogpost" responses. The point of social engagement is to express oneself to another. There are explicit and implicit ways to do that. Ganker isn't actually against "blogposting" when somebody is saying "I beat that when I was 8 years old!" to dunk on somebody, or saying "zoomers will never know what it felt like to go from MGS1 to MGS2!" or "I remember getting my first game and reading the manual on the ride home blah blah blah zoomers can't relate".

    And then the second part "on topic". Is a student complaining to a teacher about bullying off-topic to school? No that would be ridiculous because the bullying presumably prevents one from participating in school, so there has to be room to allow things not directly related to education for school to flourish. I don't understand how people don't understand that same principle applying to boards. It's far more ontopic anyway than the abundance of coomer posting but whatever. I'll never get a straight answer. (this is brief, relatively speaking, frick off)

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Okay. Zelda. I'm realizing this will be a bit stupid because I don't think what I'm saying will ever be understood, and I don't think anybody has a pure enough interest in discussion and videogames to value the characteristic of seeking other perspectives to further understand videogames they play. But whatever.

    What is a Zelda dungeon?

    Well. It's an enclosed space (for the most part) with multiple doors, different paths, enemies, things to find and loot or use, and sometimes...puzzles. This seems pretty standard for any "videogame level" so let's just breakdown the barebones of a level quickly.

    A level can have 3 things broadly speaking: Navigation, Traversal, Interaction.

    Traversal is pretty straightforward. So we can break down Navigation and Interaction into sub parts.

    Navigation can be: "Find your way" or "Get from point A to B". Some games combine this both. In unique ways. In classic Tomb Raider half of the point is figuring out how to get to point A to B, and the other half is finding your way in general. It's kind of hard to explain without having played it. So I'll give a different example. In Resident Evil. Half the point is routing a way from point A to B without dying, or managing as much resources. And the other half, is literally finding the pieces of the overarching puzzle to progress. The level design isn't ACTUALLY a puzzle. That's more Tomb Raider. But you have to solve puzzles in one room that gives you a puzzle piece to open up somewhere else and yadda yadda.

    Interaction can be: Combat, Puzzles, and just basic interaction with the enviroment aka shoot a padlock to progress, throw a tnt to blow up a door, shoot a glass window etc. Some games combine this. Hopefully I don't need to explain more than that.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >What is the difference between a "troll" and a "good poster" if the "good poster" never posts? Nothing. Infact there's a negative difference.
    You've convinced me anon, I won't simply ignore your thread this time. Here, have this.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      post more Zelda fanart frick this gay thread

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    NOW we can talk about Zelda!

    In retrospect I think I sort of messed up. Because I didn't explain enough of Navigation and what makes different approaches to navigation ACTUALLY meaningful. But maybe somebody will understand when I talk about Zelda.

    I'll only be talking about 3D Zelda dungeons for this thread. So let's break it down.

    Broadly a Zelda dungeon is "Point A to B". But there are no resources to manage. So there's barely any gameplay consideration there. There is also rarely any routing. The game has a generous map. And if you're like me and never pull out the Zelda map anyway, there isn't any meaningful difference, it's still straightforward.

    In EVERY single 3D Zelda game there is only ever 1 key/door to progress. This actually CAN become a bit more complicated when the "key" is actually a puzzle but I'll try to get to that.

    What does this mean? It means in terms of navigation the dungeons already play themselves. There's no need to find your way, because there's only ever one way to go (this doesn't necessarily mean the opposite is more complex.) and even considering linearity there's no mental mapping because again. There's only ever one door you can open at a time. To make up for this. Zelda dungeons would need to make the way you get from point A to B engaging. I was going to explain this when talking about Tomb Raider and Resident Evil but I already hinted at it anyway. If your level can't be hard to navigate. Then it needs to rely on "interaction". Point A to B on its own is too simple, unlike Find your way, which purely relies on the structure of a space.

    I hinted that tomb raider has both. But to focus on what I'll now shorten as PAtB (point A to B). It mixes traversal and puzzle into one thing. Moving from 1 point to another is a puzzle of how to apply ones moveset to the 3D space they are in.

    Resident Evil's combat is simple. Like Zelda. But it has a "system" that underpins the entire gameplay...resource management.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    As I'm writing this im realizing there's so much I could say about all this. Like how Resident Evil's "point A to B" literally fundementally cannot work without its "find your way" half. And that Tomb Raider can technically escape that flaw because it's not a sum of its parts game. But I realize I'm over complicating things.

    The reason I laid all this out is to make a point that should become clear quickly.

    In OoT (the defining 3D Zelda) There is No navigation. No point A to B substance. And traversal should be pretty obviously dissected to. I mean the game LITERALLY jumps for you. Has no platforming challenges (level design that demands timing or judgement of distance/speed) You're more likely to be fighting the camera more than anything. Yes I know there's that one graveyard chase but that's barely engaging traversal when there's no way to gain speed and the graveyard dude doesn't even have a consistent speed.

    What does that leave? Interaction. The combat is literally brain-dead. Encourages spamming and/or waiting. So let's move on to the actually interesting and distinguishing factor Zelda has...puzzles. More specifically: Item based puzzles.

    Puzzles created and centered around the unique application of items gained throughout the adventure....Ocarina of Time fails at this too.

    In large part the "puzzles". You'll come across in OoT are what I call "Rock Paper Scissors solving" I feel like this is pretty intuitive to understand but people always conveniently ignore it so I'll briefly explain it:

    Eye = Paper
    Arrow = Rock

    To solve the problem of a locked door. You shoot the arrow...at the eye...problem "solved".

    The reason this isn't a puzzle is pretty obvious, but if you need more. It's just "matching". There's no thinking involved here. It's about understanding the rules, not understanding the "puzzle" or "problem". Frick I could write another essay on this. But hopefully you get the point.

    These are most OoT "puzzles" if you disagree, provide examples.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Rock Paper Scissors solving
      It's a shit analogy.
      You can't use Eye on Eye. And you don't "lose" to a puzzle.

      A better analogy would be Locks and Keys.
      A puzzle is a Lock that can only be bypassed with the correct item (Key).
      This better articulates the adventure game puzzle problem that has been present since point 'n' click interfaces:
      >what if the player just started using every single inventory item on the puzzle with no account for reason or logic?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >It's a shit analogy.
        >You can't use Eye on Eye. And you don't "lose" to a puzzle.

        No it's a fine analogy. You can't use an eye on an eye, be the game never presents you with an eye to use. If you use a bomb on a bomb it just triggers another bomb and nothing happens. You can't use an arrow on an arrow. You can't use a hookshot on a hookshot or a hookshot panel on a hookshot panel.

        The reason why "lock and key". Doesn't work is because hookshot isn't a fricking key. It's a traversal option. That's not a key. If key just means "opens up progression" then the word is so fricking applicable to anything that it doesn't mean anything anymore. There's no meaningful distinction between small keys and "keys"

        It becomes even more stupid when you realize that a "key" can be used to unlock a small key.

        The analogy works fine you just don't understand it for some reason.

        I rock paper scissors game where rock beats scissors happens 10 times in a row...is still rock paper scissors. In a videogame the only thing to note is that the game presents a what you will "face" and what you can choose to face it. The point of analogizing it to rock paper scissors is to SHOW how absurdly blatant of a non puzzle it is. Because if somebody ever tried to make rock paper scissors a puzzle game of responding with the winning option. It would be brain dead.

        Another reason I don't like to call it lock and key is because there actually IS a way the game could be a sort of "puzzle" if it worked that way. Resident Evil proves that. Because its puzzles are basically entirely "Bring Item A to Door A" but what makes it work is solid level design that forces you to mentally map where every unique door is, and what every unique key goes to its designated door.

        >This better articulates the adventure game puzzle problem that has been present since point 'n' click interfaces

        No idea of the context to this. I have wanted to play an adventure game recently tho cuz I was recommended one.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Even if you could use Eye on Eye it would be the same result as using any other invalid item - not a draw, not losing, it just wouldn't work.
          It either works, or it doesn't. Two states - Not three. Hence, Lock and Key.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Even if you could use Eye on Eye it would be the same result as using any other invalid item - not a draw, not losing, it just wouldn't work.

            I don't understand how you're using words here.

            "Lose", "Win", and "Draw" are words that can't be as easily mapped to a videogame as rock paper scissors. Nothing about the outcomes contradict anything in Rock Paper Scissors.

            If you lose in rock paper scissors what happens? You can go again depending on whether it's a best out of 3. Or never play again.

            If you draw in rock paper scissors what happens? You can go again until a win happens, but theoretically if it just keeps drawing enough times. Somebody's just going to want to stop.

            This is the one that REALLY breaks it.

            If you win in rock paper scissors what happens? You can either go again just for fun, or stop and never play again.

            You see. The concepts of "win vs lose vs draw" are made up. They can't be as objective as a videogame letting you through or not. BUT they can still function that way. It's loose enough that it can be applied to it.

            Plus you never countered my reasoning for why using lock and key is bad and dumb.

            Rock Paper Scissors talks about the actual act of hitting an eye with an arrow. Lock and Key talks only of the outcome. You understand?

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >"Lose", "Win", and "Draw" are words that can't be as easily mapped to a videogame as rock paper scissors.
              Yes. Glad we understand each other despite your opening statement.

              >Plus you never countered my reasoning for why using lock and key is bad and dumb.
              I didn't because your points were either irrelevant or irrational.
              I did experience second-hand embarrassment though.

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The point of me establishing all this is just to basically prove that OoT dungeons have no actual gameplay substance. There's nothing to engage with, contend with. Overcome. Understand. etc.

    When I went through Forest Temple. I got this weird feeling near the end "why was this dungeon so long despite so simple?" I felt this way because at any given time. I had no problem knowing where to go. I could only go to one foot after all. I had no problem fighting any enemies. I mean there is LITERALLY a fairy in the double staflos room and I already had one beforehand anyway. And I had no problem with the puzzles. The fire through ice at eye arrow is CLOSE to a puzzle. But you are stuck in a very "telegraphed" room with not that many items, and nothing else to do. So it's pretty simple. If this "puzzle" DEVELOPED further along in the dungeon in anyway then it would be interesting.

    OoT is a weird game. Because its a game I sometimes come back to, coping that I don't understand the game despite the fact that I can decontruct it more precisely than 90% of people I've interacted with. It doesn't help that I've been told before by somebody that they don't understand how I don't like OoT based on other games I like. So I'm constantly reanalyzing the game trying to understand what I misunderstood. Believe it or not. As much as I dogged on Forest Temple. I actually kind of enjoyed it the second time around. And I did enjoy Water Temple a lot. But if we ignore the last two dungeons, that's literally 2 dungeons out of? 6? Bro? I make these threads in hopes that I can come across some unbelievably intelligent anon that understands why I say the stuff I say. Enough to offer me a different perspective that could be enlightening. Because I'm not intelligent enough to cast away my own doubts.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >The point of me establishing all this is just to basically prove that OoT dungeons have no actual gameplay substance.
      As previously stated, I disagree.

      >why was this dungeon so long despite so simple?
      This feeling is an indication you're playing a game below your skill level. it's your brain signaling you should probably pick up a more difficult game. You missed out on playing zelda OOT at the right moment of your life, nothing wrong with that. Move on.

      >OoT is a weird game. Because its a game I sometimes come back to, coping that I don't understand the game
      Seriously, you should move on with your life. Unless you have nostalgia or want to do those autistic glitchfest rando runs, there's nothing left for you here. Even for nostalgia, best to just listen to the OST.

      Frick. I kinda hate myself for this because I've honestly got too much to say. Im trying to figure out how to cut this all down, while still satisfying enough my standard of discussion so as not to end up contributing to the shallow culture of discussion I see online. I've realized that alienates me from almost everywhere. Nothing to be done about that. I also learned recently that it's not actually that hard to stay far away from all these social media platforms. Ive been off Ganker for like a week? And other social media platforms for months now? It's kind of depressing. Never feeling like you have a place you can express yourself comfortably. Everybody gets to do their brain-dead socialization like collectively jerking off to 2D women because that's simply what everybody else is doing, and the lowest common denominator can participate.

      It's not a matter of feeling "superior". I know intelligent communities, with their own circlejerks and social groups. Far more intelligent than me. It's about a disposition towards the world. Not even an attitude. Because something people don't realize is that being "nice" can be a compromise when the simple "threat" of criticism can be characterized as "mean" just because it's critical.

      Anyway...speedrun of all 3D Zelda games and their dungeon design incoming.

      >Ive been off Ganker for like a week? And other social media platforms for months now? It's kind of depressing
      Loneliness will compel you to return eventually. Maybe not here, but somewhere. Humans are sadly social creatures.

      Majora's Mask is probably the one Zelda game I will never consider touching again, no matter what. I have no doubts about that game. Which is an ironic thing. Considering it's the game that houses the dungeon that started this whole dive into the entire 3D series. I will never forget woodfall. It feels so crazy thinking about it now. Because this dungeon alone almost made me think MM could be a top 5 game ever. And made me reconsider whether I was wrong about OoT, since the games are literally made a year apart and on the same engine. How could their dungeon quality be so different?

      Well. Snowhead and Great Bay dissolved that. But that isn't actually what makes the game so shit. I can't be bothered to write up essays again about stuff I've already written essays about but. Short Form?: Majora's Mask loves to waste your time.

      The Zora eggs in principle is EVERYTHING that Majora's Mask is, outside of its dungeons. Tedious and Time consuming. And you might say "well that's the point lmao! it's a le game about le time!" well...have a nice day I guess. Just because the point of something is to be garbage doesn't make it...not garbage.

      If anyone cares to understand why I liked woodfall. I'll go digging for when I last said it and copy paste it here after all of this.

      The point you need to understand is that Snowhead literally gives you 2 keys right outside the doors they're supposed to be used on. Which is somehow even worse than OoT, and the central pillar gimmick is solved as soon as you interact with it... literally. Just punch the pillars until there's no more to punch, and then go to the next place you need to punch it. Repeat, and you beat the dungeon. Also has no puzzles except "shoot fire arrow at snow" and one good puzzle involving the Goron pound and switching masks.

      Great Bay is overrated for similar reasons. I still dont understand what the valves do. All you need to do is interact with them then go where you obviously haven't gone, and dungeon solved.

      >Majora's Mask is probably the one Zelda game I will never consider touching again, no matter what.
      I could never get into MM so I'm gonna skip all this.

      Wind Waker? First Two dungeons good: Puzzle Development, Recontexualization. 2nd Dungeon is actually better than the first by a lot cuz it does those things much better on top of great item use. If you want specifics. Look at this thread https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/677283102/

      The rest of the dungeons either "flat" puzzle development. What I mean by this is that. The game focuses on a mechanic and keeps focusing on that mechanic. But never actually demands any further understanding of that mechanic. The perfect example of this is the Tower of Gods. Game teaches you the command melody, and I swear to god it never substantially changes from all 4 (I think it's 4 right?) times the game expects you to bring the statues to the middle.

      It's always about opening up a way for you to get through with for the statue and then going back the way you came with the normal items and bringing the statue over with command melody.

      Earth and Wind Temple suck. Almost no puzzles. No mirrors don't count. Because mirrors are so obviously rock paper scissors puzzle solving. Funny enough. Both of these temples reminded me the most of OoT dungeons. That's my guess for why they're often said to be the best ones. I hate people.

      Anyway mirror shit is brain-dead cuz rock paper scissors. the final big mirror puzzle is literally impossible to fail because the mirror blocks have a set path you can push them to.

      Wind Temple sucks cuz it doesn't even bother to try to have puzzles. Also mostly rock paper scissors. The most creative puzzle was combining the iron boots and hookshot. But the game never developed on it, so it's whatever. All the game does when you get the hookshot is that now instead you have to tediously create the paper to scissor. Sprout a tree. Aim hookshot. Dungeon solved.

      >Wind Waker?
      Also kind of sucked, lets be honest.

      Twilight Princess? People are gunna be mad at me for this one. Because this was also a game a lot of people were sure I would "like". And is also the one often said to have the best "3D dungeons". I have zero clue what people mean by this. But at the same time I only played 4 of the dungeons before I quit. BUT. To be fair. Both MM and WW gave me a great Dungeon atleast within 2 dungeons. OoT takes 6 dungeons to offer up a good dunegon but I only played through so much of that game due to its "greatest game of all time" status, and the fact that the water temple has such an obnoxious infamy that my ego couldn't stand to not play through it.

      Twilight Princess is interesting though, because it actually challenges my framework a bit of "good dungeon design". Because as unmemorable (personally) as TP's dungeons are. I'm pretty sure it actually DOES have "puzzle development". First thing I want to say, is that TP "development" is kind of flat generally. For example. You get the iron boots and...you walk on walls and ceilings...and you do that the entire dungeon. The iron boots Inherently already barely have any creative capacity, and despite being expanded beyond OoT's capabilities. It's still incredibly fricking one dimensional.

      BUT i will say. I think there's like 1 puzzle near the end where you have to shoot an arrow at something while upside down because you can't reach it any other way. That's the best the dungeon ever does with puzzle development.

      The game actually has its BEST puzzle development in the very first dungeon. But the monkeys make it so handholdy that I can't really appreciate the dungeon as a whole. The puzzles with the gale carrying bombs is genuinely good design, and genuinely develops well into the boss too which is rare. Puzzle development typically stops before the boss.

      Lakebed you bomb stalagmites then clawshot everything. The water levels thing isn't that complicated because the game restricts how much you can change it at any given time.

      >Twilight Princess?
      Twilight turd.

      Now...skywards sword. This game is hard to talk about. Because for all intents and purposes, it's just straight up the best 3D Zelda, if for no other reason than being having the least amount of time wasting garbage (probably tied with OoT honestly) while also having the most "solid" selection of dungeons. Not all great. Just "solid" as in. I could find the least amount of problems with them. I wonder how much of this is owed to the overworld and dungeon lead ups.

      This is probably the most "innovative" Zelda game the series has actually produced...that has ACTUAL gameplay. So BotW and TotK don't count even though I actually like TotK a bit.

      I could write essays on this game but...I kind of don't want to?

      Short form?: Skyward Sword has the best use of items in the entire 3D franchise. On par with the few 2D games I've played. It also has the best overworld in the entire franchise. But this is a bit more complicated to dissect, since it actually has two seperate overworlds. But I'll get to that. It also has the best combat in the entire franchise and a combat system that actually feels like a unique identity of Zelda that can't be replicated, which gives it bonus points (I don't like design principles that can easily be copied, feels diminishing).

      Alright before I get to the dungeons. Let me explain why it's the most flawless 3D Zelda. By talking about it's flaws. It's biggest flaw is I've encountered so far is the unbelievable fact that the game actually straight up repeated the scorpion boss. The fact that the tentacle boss is so shit, and the fact that imprisoned is so shit. Other than that lets address some generic "criticisms":

      >Now...skywards sword. This game is hard to talk about. Because for all intents and purposes, it's just straight up the best 3D Zelda
      lol, lmao. Of course he liked skyward sword.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >"why was this dungeon so long despite so simple?"
      this is a very interesting insight. it makes me think of how I really enjoyed the divine beasts in Breath of the Wild, and everyone else criticized them for being short. I could not make heads or tails of their 'criticism' because it being longer wont make it better, and it's like a concession, they're admitting they were Good, and they simply wanted more. yet they continue to posit it in BotW threads on Ganker as a negative against the game, even going so far as to generalize their 'criticism' down to "BotW has no dungeons" and their suggestions for the next game "add dungeons to the next Zelda game".

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Frick. I kinda hate myself for this because I've honestly got too much to say. Im trying to figure out how to cut this all down, while still satisfying enough my standard of discussion so as not to end up contributing to the shallow culture of discussion I see online. I've realized that alienates me from almost everywhere. Nothing to be done about that. I also learned recently that it's not actually that hard to stay far away from all these social media platforms. Ive been off Ganker for like a week? And other social media platforms for months now? It's kind of depressing. Never feeling like you have a place you can express yourself comfortably. Everybody gets to do their brain-dead socialization like collectively jerking off to 2D women because that's simply what everybody else is doing, and the lowest common denominator can participate.

    It's not a matter of feeling "superior". I know intelligent communities, with their own circlejerks and social groups. Far more intelligent than me. It's about a disposition towards the world. Not even an attitude. Because something people don't realize is that being "nice" can be a compromise when the simple "threat" of criticism can be characterized as "mean" just because it's critical.

    Anyway...speedrun of all 3D Zelda games and their dungeon design incoming.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Majora's Mask is probably the one Zelda game I will never consider touching again, no matter what. I have no doubts about that game. Which is an ironic thing. Considering it's the game that houses the dungeon that started this whole dive into the entire 3D series. I will never forget woodfall. It feels so crazy thinking about it now. Because this dungeon alone almost made me think MM could be a top 5 game ever. And made me reconsider whether I was wrong about OoT, since the games are literally made a year apart and on the same engine. How could their dungeon quality be so different?

    Well. Snowhead and Great Bay dissolved that. But that isn't actually what makes the game so shit. I can't be bothered to write up essays again about stuff I've already written essays about but. Short Form?: Majora's Mask loves to waste your time.

    The Zora eggs in principle is EVERYTHING that Majora's Mask is, outside of its dungeons. Tedious and Time consuming. And you might say "well that's the point lmao! it's a le game about le time!" well...have a nice day I guess. Just because the point of something is to be garbage doesn't make it...not garbage.

    If anyone cares to understand why I liked woodfall. I'll go digging for when I last said it and copy paste it here after all of this.

    The point you need to understand is that Snowhead literally gives you 2 keys right outside the doors they're supposed to be used on. Which is somehow even worse than OoT, and the central pillar gimmick is solved as soon as you interact with it... literally. Just punch the pillars until there's no more to punch, and then go to the next place you need to punch it. Repeat, and you beat the dungeon. Also has no puzzles except "shoot fire arrow at snow" and one good puzzle involving the Goron pound and switching masks.

    Great Bay is overrated for similar reasons. I still dont understand what the valves do. All you need to do is interact with them then go where you obviously haven't gone, and dungeon solved.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Because this dungeon alone almost made me think MM could be a top 5 game
      > the games are literally made a year apart and on the same engine. How could their dungeon quality be so different?
      >Snowhead and Great Bay dissolved that.
      How come though? Snowhead has good puzzles in it, does it not? I remember there being a room intersecting two other rooms, and you had to push a block into place for later, when you come back into the room from another place and now the blocks are a platform to get a chest.
      Perhaps I think highly of them because of the additional objective of obtaining the stray fairies, because that's what is in the chest btw.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Great Bay is overrated for similar reasons. I still dont understand what the valves do.
      each one is blocking the flow of a current to make a platform to the boss door. you have to open each valve until the water flows through them all to make the platform (out of rushing water). I think it's lowkey brilliant, because each of those valves has a pipe the player can see, so you're guided to each valve along the way.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Wind Waker? First Two dungeons good: Puzzle Development, Recontexualization. 2nd Dungeon is actually better than the first by a lot cuz it does those things much better on top of great item use. If you want specifics. Look at this thread https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/677283102/

    The rest of the dungeons either "flat" puzzle development. What I mean by this is that. The game focuses on a mechanic and keeps focusing on that mechanic. But never actually demands any further understanding of that mechanic. The perfect example of this is the Tower of Gods. Game teaches you the command melody, and I swear to god it never substantially changes from all 4 (I think it's 4 right?) times the game expects you to bring the statues to the middle.

    It's always about opening up a way for you to get through with for the statue and then going back the way you came with the normal items and bringing the statue over with command melody.

    Earth and Wind Temple suck. Almost no puzzles. No mirrors don't count. Because mirrors are so obviously rock paper scissors puzzle solving. Funny enough. Both of these temples reminded me the most of OoT dungeons. That's my guess for why they're often said to be the best ones. I hate people.

    Anyway mirror shit is brain-dead cuz rock paper scissors. the final big mirror puzzle is literally impossible to fail because the mirror blocks have a set path you can push them to.

    Wind Temple sucks cuz it doesn't even bother to try to have puzzles. Also mostly rock paper scissors. The most creative puzzle was combining the iron boots and hookshot. But the game never developed on it, so it's whatever. All the game does when you get the hookshot is that now instead you have to tediously create the paper to scissor. Sprout a tree. Aim hookshot. Dungeon solved.

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Twilight Princess? People are gunna be mad at me for this one. Because this was also a game a lot of people were sure I would "like". And is also the one often said to have the best "3D dungeons". I have zero clue what people mean by this. But at the same time I only played 4 of the dungeons before I quit. BUT. To be fair. Both MM and WW gave me a great Dungeon atleast within 2 dungeons. OoT takes 6 dungeons to offer up a good dunegon but I only played through so much of that game due to its "greatest game of all time" status, and the fact that the water temple has such an obnoxious infamy that my ego couldn't stand to not play through it.

    Twilight Princess is interesting though, because it actually challenges my framework a bit of "good dungeon design". Because as unmemorable (personally) as TP's dungeons are. I'm pretty sure it actually DOES have "puzzle development". First thing I want to say, is that TP "development" is kind of flat generally. For example. You get the iron boots and...you walk on walls and ceilings...and you do that the entire dungeon. The iron boots Inherently already barely have any creative capacity, and despite being expanded beyond OoT's capabilities. It's still incredibly fricking one dimensional.

    BUT i will say. I think there's like 1 puzzle near the end where you have to shoot an arrow at something while upside down because you can't reach it any other way. That's the best the dungeon ever does with puzzle development.

    The game actually has its BEST puzzle development in the very first dungeon. But the monkeys make it so handholdy that I can't really appreciate the dungeon as a whole. The puzzles with the gale carrying bombs is genuinely good design, and genuinely develops well into the boss too which is rare. Puzzle development typically stops before the boss.

    Lakebed you bomb stalagmites then clawshot everything. The water levels thing isn't that complicated because the game restricts how much you can change it at any given time.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      TP has the worst dungeons lmao. And they only get worse, city in the sky is the worst dungeon of all time

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >I'm pretty sure it actually DOES have "puzzle development"
      it's actually more incredible than is given credit too. it's easy to overlook because of how excellent it escalates and naturally teaches the player.
      in the first dungeon alone, one of the puzzles is a bomb and using your boomerang to move the bomb to a rock that's out of reach.

      then the boss battle involves moving the bomb that swings through the air into the boss! it can easily be missed, but the dungeons teach you how to deal with the bosses very naturally. each boss in TP is more puzzle than combat. none of them are about opening a weakpoint then attacking, repeating three times. each boss is a choreographed puzzle instead. and the dungeon design that leads up to it is instructing players on how to solve it!

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Arbiters Ground pre dungeon lead up was solid. But the dungeon is shit. It is quite literally on rails. Anything involving wolf form is cringe and shit. Spinner is cooler for getting over sand without rails, than it is for literally being an on rails item. I don't even think this dungeon has puzzles.

    Now. Since I said I only played these 4 dungeons I need to justify why...

    The tear hunting shit was unbearably grating and lasted way too long. Game honestly had as much time wasting shit as majora if not more because of the existence of the horse escort mission to kakariko village which has to be one of the worst ideas I have ever seen a videogame employ.

    I asked this before playing Arbiters Ground and got a "yes" (they were wrong, since Arbiters Ground was shit) But I'm not closed off to the idea of continuing to play it. If literally every single dungeon after this one is the best ones in the entire 3D franchise then I'll trudge through.

    Also If anyone disagrees with anything I've said, just provide counterexamples

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Now...skywards sword. This game is hard to talk about. Because for all intents and purposes, it's just straight up the best 3D Zelda, if for no other reason than being having the least amount of time wasting garbage (probably tied with OoT honestly) while also having the most "solid" selection of dungeons. Not all great. Just "solid" as in. I could find the least amount of problems with them. I wonder how much of this is owed to the overworld and dungeon lead ups.

    This is probably the most "innovative" Zelda game the series has actually produced...that has ACTUAL gameplay. So BotW and TotK don't count even though I actually like TotK a bit.

    I could write essays on this game but...I kind of don't want to?

    Short form?: Skyward Sword has the best use of items in the entire 3D franchise. On par with the few 2D games I've played. It also has the best overworld in the entire franchise. But this is a bit more complicated to dissect, since it actually has two seperate overworlds. But I'll get to that. It also has the best combat in the entire franchise and a combat system that actually feels like a unique identity of Zelda that can't be replicated, which gives it bonus points (I don't like design principles that can easily be copied, feels diminishing).

    Alright before I get to the dungeons. Let me explain why it's the most flawless 3D Zelda. By talking about it's flaws. It's biggest flaw is I've encountered so far is the unbelievable fact that the game actually straight up repeated the scorpion boss. The fact that the tentacle boss is so shit, and the fact that imprisoned is so shit. Other than that lets address some generic "criticisms":

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    "sky is boring blah blah blah" this isn't a real criticism because the sky isn't nearly as big as literally any past Zelda overworld. And I view it as a transitionary area. It's just the place to host some sidequests and treasures you find. What's the proof of this?

    The biggest proof is the goddess cubes. You find them below in the ACTUAL overworld. And they get sent up to the sky overworld where they're just picked up. You find bugs in the actual overworld. Materials, items. Even fricking sidequests that aren't delegated mostly to the town, are completed on the ground and are the best sidequests (the funwheel one picrel).

    You might be asking a very good question now...so why the sky overworld? My guess? To be "traditional". Because the ground overworld is anything but traditional. It's very smart and creative. The sky overworld feels like wind Waker sea, combined with the little moronic holes you'll find in OoT and MM, combined with literal minigame islands etc.

    They kept the sky as some obligation to traditional Zelda. and/OR. Because they simply couldn't figure out some way to keep the ground overworld interconnected with how different it is from standard overworlds.

    Now that weve got that out of the way. Let's talk about why it's the best overworld...for one. It actually has gameplay. Maybe another advantage of having the sky overworld is that when the transitionary overworld is separated from the content one. You don't have these weird lull moments of just traversing to where you need to go. The content and gameplay on the ground therefore actually feels more dense and is ALLOWED to be more dense and focused.

    Pre dungeon overworlds are genius for multiple reasons, but the most important one actually is that it allows more items to get use that likely couldn't find a way to be incorporated into a dungeon. It also allows for "puzzle development" to happen even further back than just in the dungeon.

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    For example. In the Lanaryu Desert overworld. Your beetle becomes able to carry bombs. You'll use this in an abundance of ways in the overworld and then be expected to use it in the dungeon In that same overworld.

    For an inverse example. You learn that you can cut the plant enemies' stem if theyre hanging down from a cieling in Skyview temple. And you can remember this for when you're exploring the Lanaryu Sand Sea and need to progress.

    Also allows for different more unique "outdoors" challenges that might now work in a dungeon.

    Okay. I think that's enough about the overworld. Onto the dungeons...they're...okay. Skyview is a fine dungeon, carried by the novelty of the beetle. But I almost never expect anything from a first Zelda dungeon at this point. Kinda shit "puzzles". The whole eye gimmick is moronic and I got stuck on It forever my first time. Solved it by accident. The earth temple? Better, but not great. What stands out in memory for this dungeon is how it actually uses the map itself as a sort of gameplay mechanic since you can't progress without looking at it. That's cool. It does it twice two, and actually does "develop" on it. Since the second time there's no X and you just need to logically draw the connection.

    Lanaryu Mining Facility is one I actually enjoyed but can't figure out why since it's mostly rock paper scissors puzzles and there's no navigation. I think maybe just the time gimmick and sheer amount of mechanics pumped into it carries.

    Ancient Cistern is fine. Again, carried by its unique gimmick. Mostly rock paper scissor puzzles. Even without the tablet the solution to the central statue puzzle requires no braincells. Just interact with the obvious interactable lever and climb back down because there's no where else to go.

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The sandship is actually the best dungeon in the entire 3D series period. And legit smart level design and puzzles, and the puzzles even develop, and recontexualizes mechanics and items. I never once got stuck with a single puzzle, or ever needed to check my map but it just goes to show that the problem with puzzles in Zelda games isn't being too easy. It's them barely existing enough at all.

    One example is picrel. The first time you come across a switch you need to hit with your arrow. There's a fan spinning around it. But the game is actually genius. Because it takes you through the entire dungeon the first time. Where the fan wasn't spinning and you could see the switch. This is a thing Resident Evil does and is what makes its level design good. It'll show you a bunch of locks that you'll need to mentally map, and remember to get back to when you acquire a new puzzle item. And RE makes sure to do this far back enough to actually force you to map where everything is.

    It works on a similar principle but differently for the sand ship.

    There are 3 layers to the ship. The first layer is you exploring it in the present without the bow. The second layer is you exploring it in the past with the bow, and the third layer is you exploring it in the present with the bow.

    What makes figuring out to go back in the past to hit the switch mentally engaging. Is first the fact that you have to remember it. And if you're like me. It will have been the first thing you wanted to do. The second part is realizing how that simple switch is recontexualized by both the bow and the time shift.

    Because without the time shift a "problem" to solve wouldn't exist in the first place. And without the bow. A "solution" wouldn't exist either. But the time shift is also the solution and it's just genius. It's so smart.

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    "Recontexualize" as I'm using it. Just means, to give new information, that reveals a greater understanding of past information". The reason this is so "smart". Is because in my theorizing. What is the essence of a puzzle? I think the essence of a puzzle is to make you understand it's principles enough, to understand how and why the solution makes sense.

    When I shoot an arrow at an eye, or a switch. What is "making sense" here? Nothing. The rules "make sense" because they do. Because something happens when I interact with the game in that way.

    But if you actually think about It. In a standard puzzle game. This is just "the first step". Where the game establishes it's rules. Aka that: "you can push a block", "pushing a block into a floor button makes something happen".

    These are "rules". The game isn't engaging your brain in trying to understand anything. It's simply expecting you to fulfill a ruleset.

    I think the best puzzles are the ones that expand your understanding of the puzzle. Not all puzzles do this mind you. Just the best ones imo. If anybody here is very perceptive. I wonder if they could figure out that I'm basing so much of this on my experience with "Outer Wilds". Ive mentioned it before. But I guess this is one of the worst aspects of the fact that Ganker doesn't play videogames. Since it went over most people's heads.

    Anyway. I forgot to mention the "development" part. The game pulls another "shoot arrow at switch" puzzle. But this time what's blocking you arrows flight path, is in the past, and you have to engage in combat with the thing blocking it when it comes alive in the future...while fighting a bokoblin. This is actually a development on 2 puzzles but I already feel like I'm saying too much.

  19. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Anyway this is the part of the thread where I conclude and reveal some of my "bait".

    Honestly as triggered as I will be by the inevitable "didn't read" replies. I don't think I can blame anyone. Even I think I wrote too much this time. But I really wanted to do something a bit more comprehensive this time about every 3D Zelda game. There is MUCH more I could have said about each game...except maybe Skyward Sword dungeons that aren't Sandship, few problems, and little to praise.

    Which gets me to revealing the bait. I actually DO thing SS is the best 3D Zelda...logically. But this comment exists here to figure out who actually bothered to read everything I wrote. Since the reality is that I had a problem with skyward sword thats hard for me to figure out logically...I couldn't enjoy the game much.

    Despite it doing so many things better. Rarely wasting my time. Barely having any serious problems with it. Even having the best dungeon in the entire series...I wasn't that into it.

    If I had to describe the game it would be "boring". And that's a word I NEVER use because it's one of the stupidest words ever to describe something, because it's far too subjective, and nebulous. It doesn't actually say anything, and anything that will come after to try and explain it will always be post hoc, since there's no logical basis for something being "boring".

    I wish the game gave me that feeling I got when I first went through woodfall or forbidden woods.

    Sandship feels like a combination of woodfall and the water temple. Literally some of the only dungeons in those games I love. And yet...I never got the elated feeling I did from woodfall.

    Makes me wonder and doubt if any of my words mean anything. I think they do. It's likely that this feeling Is just burnout from playing so many Zelda games in a row. Majora was basically the first 3D Zelda I decided to play in this full series adventure.

    Just saying all this because I predict the "of course he liked skyward sword!" replies

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Based take. I've been preaching since 2011 that skyward sword is the best 3d Zelda due to having the best dungeons, bosses, and overworld. People always start crying about Fi and then parroting that it's bad but I think there's two real reasons why SS gets hate: it came out as "open-world" was taking off; and because some parts of the game require you to think, it's simply too hard for most morons. Yes I know, Zelda games are "easy," but your average person is a moron.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        essaygay keep please posting!!

        i don't always have something to say in your threads but it's nice to see someone trying to encourage thoughtful discussion on Ganker (even if you're a bit too wordy)

        Also every single positive reply in these threads reads like OP.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Skyward Sword's sword controls were my favorite part of the game, sword controls like that are my personal fantasy. I want a game where I can cut enemies down like I'm actually doing it, I hope VR becomes good and gets good games where I can Zandatsu enemies with my own hands.
        Anyways, OP is a gay.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The "connecting tissue" between the parts you like might be too weak, and the overall plot and the OST might not be very engaging. There's also the risk of nostalgia, though you might also find the Sandship too long compared to Woodfall's pacing.

      If you're earnest with your posting and aren't taking these complaints from someone else, you need to try making each post give a chance for others to respond before you try making another big post.

  20. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    lol anyway. feel like this thread is going to die since I'm the only one replying. I guess that week break was effective don't even have the typical obsessed morons that just want to circlejerk about how much they don't like me. they should have gone with this tactic first if they didn't like me so much.

    uh well...not much else I can do. just saw the Zelda thread that's been up for 6 hours. some bait about how TotK is worse than ALLTP.

    maybe this seems pathetic. it's not meant to be. but as stupidly as I have to hammer this realization in my head based on that thread. it seems like people actually enjoy bait, and circlejerks/antijerks. so many people participating in that thread. so many just saying shit. even those that don't play much Zelda games. I don't want to say "bait is easier to engage with" because that feels like a lazy answer. but...yeah. not sure what I'm doing here any longer. should just make the break permanent. don't really have anything to contribute. no good bait.

    just overly indepth thoughts. which I've been told "lack substance" in the past and is why people don't like it.

    regardless. I can't get what I want from here I guess

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Your method of discussing these things is very hard to engage with, you are talking to yourself, there is no back and forth.
      People fall for bait but not necessarily because they enjoy it, they are frustrated.
      I'm also frustrated because I can't talk about the series here but I don't really have anything to say to you.
      Also I'm tired of all Zelda discussion being meta, we never talk about characters, story, lore, items, funny things, it's all a meta discussion about what is Zelda and what isn't and developers and calling everyone zoomers, etc. I have no interest in that anymore.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Your method of discussing these things is very hard to engage with, you are talking to yourself, there is no back and forth

        What are you talking about? This is a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm "talking to myself" because nobody else is engaging with or replying to anything. I guarantee with absolute certainty you didn't even bother reading anything actually said before saying this. Because there's plenty of time I LITERALLY ask for specific responses or perspectives along the way.

        If "making actual robust arguments" is seen as "talking to yourself" it's no wonder the board is like this. I'm literally looking at somebody fundementally trying to justify bait culture because he can't read and doesn't know what arguments are. Where he's literally saying

        >Also I'm tired of all Zelda discussion being meta, we never talk about characters, story, lore, items, funny things

        Which is literally everything that circlejerk threads love to engage in. Endlessly validating the games and the series. Never talking about anything beyond the surface level. They're not substantively different from bait threads. And I also find it ironic how you call what I'm saying "talking to yourself" when all the "topics" you mentioned are prime for "talking to yourself". Since nobody is actually engaging with anything anybody else is saying in those contexts. Only sharing agreements. At that point you're not talking to anyone, you're just using a thread as an echo chamber to bounce the opinions you like off the wall of the thread, or similar/familiar sounding opinions.

        But whatever. Believe what you want. Don't need to be remotely reasonable on Ganker. Part of the reason this place is like this, is you can just spit out something like this without thinking and feel completely fine doing so.

        Whatever. I said what I wrote was too much anyway, I'm not looking for people like you.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          My bad for trying to engage with you earnestly, you're not only an autist but you're the moronic self defeating kind of homosexual ass autist.

  21. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    what kind of autism is this?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      post more Zelda fanart frick this gay thread

      Zelda 2

      Your method of discussing these things is very hard to engage with, you are talking to yourself, there is no back and forth.
      People fall for bait but not necessarily because they enjoy it, they are frustrated.
      I'm also frustrated because I can't talk about the series here but I don't really have anything to say to you.
      Also I'm tired of all Zelda discussion being meta, we never talk about characters, story, lore, items, funny things, it's all a meta discussion about what is Zelda and what isn't and developers and calling everyone zoomers, etc. I have no interest in that anymore.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I'd rather reply to autismo than the same boring repetitive bait.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I saw the job offer you posted and chose to decline it. This thread looks compelling.

  22. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Is someone gonna start posting cado edits or am I wasting my time here?

  23. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I took note of the point where he started pasting from his pre-written essay up to where he seemed to revert back to actually posting normally, and this is the total length. Copy-pasting half of a novel's worth of pre-written text a few paragraphs at a time as quickly as the post cooldown allows should be a bannable offense and I'd argue this falls under Spamming/Flooding.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      How many pages?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        According to Google, the average number of words per page of a non-fiction novel is 233. Going off that, it's about 20 pages.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Thanks. Suppose I'll just take this a few posts at a time. Kind of awkward jumping in the middle of a discussion but I'm not going to backlink through archived threads from months ago and spend dozens of hours of my time just to get some context.

          https://i.imgur.com/6GGT6xO.jpeg

          I think about this reply sometimes. There's a lot I could say about Zelda, and a lot to say anyway. But the hurdle is always finding the motivation to do so. I don't think I can feel comfortable putting the amount of effort im about to without a dissection of the meta contextual aspect of discussion. threads, replies, or in other words, expressions, and responses.

          This reply made me wonder how many others are like this. How many of the type of people I "should" be drawing to these threads simply don't participate for reasons like this. I always wonder how so many people, can possibly reply to a thread for no other reason that to ego boost or validate their feelings. How many just come to get in a circle and jerk about how much they don't like someone or something. Nobody engages with the material.

          It doesn't matter what one says Whether they're right or not. This is a place for social gathering. Social rules don't disappear due to anonymity. I remember hearing somebody say, "if we got rid of all identifying characteristics, would discrimination stop?" and somebody else said "no, people will always find something to differentiate and discriminate".

          So then, back to the reply. What Is the point of linking it? Something about it bugged me. Why would you read walls of text just to "consider" it and move on? Especially when disagreement or lack of understanding was expressed? What type of threads does one like that even move on to? There are barely any discussion threads.

          My point is, what is the point of not saying anything? What other thread is so important? What does "consider" even mean? At first my thought was "how do I appeal to people like this". But now I question whether there's a point. What is the difference between a "troll" and a "good poster" if the "good poster" never posts? Nothing. Infact there's a negative difference.

          I don't believe there's anybody to appeal to. I don't believe there's anybody who actually values discussion.

          My initial read is that you're critiquing zelda games. I'll take an opposing view. Feel free to correct.

          Okay. Zelda. I'm realizing this will be a bit stupid because I don't think what I'm saying will ever be understood, and I don't think anybody has a pure enough interest in discussion and videogames to value the characteristic of seeking other perspectives to further understand videogames they play. But whatever.

          What is a Zelda dungeon?

          Well. It's an enclosed space (for the most part) with multiple doors, different paths, enemies, things to find and loot or use, and sometimes...puzzles. This seems pretty standard for any "videogame level" so let's just breakdown the barebones of a level quickly.

          A level can have 3 things broadly speaking: Navigation, Traversal, Interaction.

          Traversal is pretty straightforward. So we can break down Navigation and Interaction into sub parts.

          Navigation can be: "Find your way" or "Get from point A to B". Some games combine this both. In unique ways. In classic Tomb Raider half of the point is figuring out how to get to point A to B, and the other half is finding your way in general. It's kind of hard to explain without having played it. So I'll give a different example. In Resident Evil. Half the point is routing a way from point A to B without dying, or managing as much resources. And the other half, is literally finding the pieces of the overarching puzzle to progress. The level design isn't ACTUALLY a puzzle. That's more Tomb Raider. But you have to solve puzzles in one room that gives you a puzzle piece to open up somewhere else and yadda yadda.

          Interaction can be: Combat, Puzzles, and just basic interaction with the enviroment aka shoot a padlock to progress, throw a tnt to blow up a door, shoot a glass window etc. Some games combine this. Hopefully I don't need to explain more than that.

          >and I don't think anybody has a pure enough interest in discussion and videogames to value the characteristic of seeking other perspectives to further understand videogames they play
          There are plenty of individuals who make entire careers out of game design. This type of thinking is core to their day to day.

          >A level can have 3 things broadly speaking: Navigation, Traversal, Interaction.
          Sure.

          NOW we can talk about Zelda!

          In retrospect I think I sort of messed up. Because I didn't explain enough of Navigation and what makes different approaches to navigation ACTUALLY meaningful. But maybe somebody will understand when I talk about Zelda.

          I'll only be talking about 3D Zelda dungeons for this thread. So let's break it down.

          Broadly a Zelda dungeon is "Point A to B". But there are no resources to manage. So there's barely any gameplay consideration there. There is also rarely any routing. The game has a generous map. And if you're like me and never pull out the Zelda map anyway, there isn't any meaningful difference, it's still straightforward.

          In EVERY single 3D Zelda game there is only ever 1 key/door to progress. This actually CAN become a bit more complicated when the "key" is actually a puzzle but I'll try to get to that.

          What does this mean? It means in terms of navigation the dungeons already play themselves. There's no need to find your way, because there's only ever one way to go (this doesn't necessarily mean the opposite is more complex.) and even considering linearity there's no mental mapping because again. There's only ever one door you can open at a time. To make up for this. Zelda dungeons would need to make the way you get from point A to B engaging. I was going to explain this when talking about Tomb Raider and Resident Evil but I already hinted at it anyway. If your level can't be hard to navigate. Then it needs to rely on "interaction". Point A to B on its own is too simple, unlike Find your way, which purely relies on the structure of a space.

          I hinted that tomb raider has both. But to focus on what I'll now shorten as PAtB (point A to B). It mixes traversal and puzzle into one thing. Moving from 1 point to another is a puzzle of how to apply ones moveset to the 3D space they are in.

          Resident Evil's combat is simple. Like Zelda. But it has a "system" that underpins the entire gameplay...resource management.

          >But there are no resources to manage.
          Health, magic. If the primary goal of resident evil is to avoid dying, zelda games are the same.

          >What does this mean? It means in terms of navigation the dungeons already play themselves. There's no need to find your way, because there's only ever one way to go
          Not true. This is equivalent to calling a maze linear. Yes, there is a single way out - the end boss - but there are twists and turns and dead ends sometimes

          As I'm writing this im realizing there's so much I could say about all this. Like how Resident Evil's "point A to B" literally fundementally cannot work without its "find your way" half. And that Tomb Raider can technically escape that flaw because it's not a sum of its parts game. But I realize I'm over complicating things.

          The reason I laid all this out is to make a point that should become clear quickly.

          In OoT (the defining 3D Zelda) There is No navigation. No point A to B substance. And traversal should be pretty obviously dissected to. I mean the game LITERALLY jumps for you. Has no platforming challenges (level design that demands timing or judgement of distance/speed) You're more likely to be fighting the camera more than anything. Yes I know there's that one graveyard chase but that's barely engaging traversal when there's no way to gain speed and the graveyard dude doesn't even have a consistent speed.

          What does that leave? Interaction. The combat is literally brain-dead. Encourages spamming and/or waiting. So let's move on to the actually interesting and distinguishing factor Zelda has...puzzles. More specifically: Item based puzzles.

          Puzzles created and centered around the unique application of items gained throughout the adventure....Ocarina of Time fails at this too.

          In large part the "puzzles". You'll come across in OoT are what I call "Rock Paper Scissors solving" I feel like this is pretty intuitive to understand but people always conveniently ignore it so I'll briefly explain it:

          Eye = Paper
          Arrow = Rock

          To solve the problem of a locked door. You shoot the arrow...at the eye...problem "solved".

          The reason this isn't a puzzle is pretty obvious, but if you need more. It's just "matching". There's no thinking involved here. It's about understanding the rules, not understanding the "puzzle" or "problem". Frick I could write another essay on this. But hopefully you get the point.

          These are most OoT "puzzles" if you disagree, provide examples.

          >I mean the game LITERALLY jumps for you. Has no platforming challenges
          Pressing buttons is not the only form of difficulty. Some actions can come from a combination of factors. Controlling the shit camera and analog stick to get the game to auto-execute jumps as intended can be it's own type of challenge

          >The combat is literally brain-dead.
          Agreed, except bosses

          >The reason this isn't a puzzle is pretty obvious, but if you need more. It's just "matching". There's no thinking involved here.
          Every puzzle is pattern recognition. I'll give you that zelda is pretty easy, but it's a childrens game. Simple puzzles from 20 year old games are the educational building blocks for the more complex puzzles you solve today

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >There are plenty of individuals who make entire careers out of game design. This type of thinking is core to their day to day.

            What I mean is that I don't see enough that actually interact in direct debate/argumentation. "Discussion" is a lot different from "interest in thing". Hence why I gave the example about how I'm not calling myself superior when I say there aren't people like me. I know a plethora of "smart" communities that are just groups of really successful, or smart, or useful people. It's about a disposition. How one views and approaches the world. I don't find people with the same interests as me.

            >Health, magic. If the primary goal of resident evil is to avoid dying, zelda games are the same.

            I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. You "manage" resources in every game technically. There's obviously a difference as to why RE is called a resource management game. If I think for longer I could probably cook up an answer but currently I'm not in a very encouraged mood. The best I can offer is: The game gives you hearts in abundance, same with magic potions.

            And even in the case where you play something like Hero Mode. The consequence for not "managing" resources is more often than not just tedium. Another thing I can highlight is a lack of "tension" this one is a bit harder to explain. Since even on hero mode I never feel tense in a Zelda game but I'll think about this a bit more maybe.

            >Not true. This is equivalent to calling a maze linear. Yes, there is a single way out - the end boss - but there are twists and turns and dead ends sometimes

            I don't understand why you said this as if it means anything. A maze isn't good design either. Nor is it "navigationally" challenging. You don't understand what I'm saying if you think ironically that saying "but maze" is a counter just because people often colloquially think "complex level design" = maze

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Pressing buttons is not the only form of difficulty. Some actions can come from a combination of factors. Controlling the shit camera and analog stick to get the game to auto-execute jumps as intended can be it's own type of challenge

            I don't understand what youre saying? You're just throwing out words at this point. I wish I had the specific word or phrase for what you're doing. Currently what it feels like when you know something is logically moronic. But don't know the logical fallacy to call it out.

            But in other words. You're saying "technically" true things that have no meaning or contextual relevance.

            Yes. It's true that pressing buttons isn't the only form of difficulty??? But that doesn't make OoT's traversal any less brain-dead and you didn't actually describe how OoT's traversal isn't braindead. You suggest "controlling the camera can be its own challenge" what the frick does that mean? "Challenge" doesn't mean "friction". Or "lack of control" inherently.

            Also completely darkening the screen every time you're about to make a jump in a Mario game can be a "challenge of its own" if you use the word challenge stupidly (no offense) but that's NOT actually a challenge. The game isnt challenging you to overcome anything relevant. It's just being unnecessarily "cumbersome" or stripping you of control/awareness.

            The jump in OoT itself isn't complicated to make. You LITERALLY CANT fail it, and if you CAN fail it, then you can NEVER succeed it in the first place without glitches.

            Nothing is demanded of you in the jump. No timing. No judge of distance. No judgement of necessary speed etc. Basic things that exist even in a simple Mario game. (which can still be braindead).

            >Simple puzzles from 20 year old games are the educational building blocks for the more complex puzzles you solve today

            you have no idea what you're talking about and didn't even engage with my point.

            I expected a bit too much. dumb of me I guess.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >You suggest "controlling the camera can be its own challenge" what the frick does that mean? "Challenge" doesn't mean "friction".
              Try playing qwop
              or getting over it.

  24. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  25. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Nani the frick

  26. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      wtf is she holding in her left arm?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Her fat rolls

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Not even Link can catch a break from these fatties

  27. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You expect me to read all this garbage, yet you dismissed me with "lol lmao" when I tried to engage with you about System Shock. have a nice day OP, and shove your essay up your ass.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      This gay complains about how people don't engage with him honestly, yet when someone tries to he acts condescendingly and does the exact same shit he complains about.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Pretty much. Glad I gave up halfway through my second post. OP claims he wants debate but the truth is he just wants free labor to proofread his trash essays.
        Factual refutation gets shut down with..
        >I don't understand why you said this as if it means anything
        lmao

        I've got better things to do.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        every single person who tried engaging with this clown, ended up regretting it and calling him a moronic homosexual
        he's literally incapable of arguing like a human being, he's severely mentally ill and lacks self awareness (things he loves blaming the whole board for lol)
        he's never going to look at himself and think "maybe *I*'m the problem? no, it's everyone else who's wrong!
        he's already alienated most of the board regulars at this point
        it's always the same patterns with this homosexual, he constantly lies, never finishes games, just regurgitates youtubers opinions, insults whoever replies to him even when the replier is trying to be sympathetic to his whiny homosexualry
        the sad thing is he ends up thinking v hates effortposting
        I love effortposting but what he's doing isn't effortposting at all, he's just unbearable and worthless

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >the sad thing is he ends up thinking v hates effortposting
          >I love effortposting but what he's doing isn't effortposting at all, he's just unbearable and worthless
          I'd be down to commandeer this thread for some real debate if you're actually serious about effort posting. Clearly OP is incapable of maintaining conversation himself with any one individual.

  28. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  29. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Tww - bad
    Tp - bad
    Ss - bad
    Botw - bad
    Totk - bad
    It's sincerely over

  30. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP entirely misses why people like Zelda games (at least, every game besides the NES titles).
    These are very casual adventure games that are easy to get through, are very polished, and have interesting worlds to explore with great atmosphere and soundtracks. They are not hardcore tests of advanced gameplay mechanics. Be less autistic.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      uh huh. because I praised woodfall and forbidden woods, or sandship because they're so complicated and hardcore.

      idk man whatever. I literally do not think I could be understood no matter how many words I spill out. just have to accept that I live in a completely different universe from most people where nuance doesn't make sense. I can never like specific aspects of things, and dislike others. I can never stress how little difficulty matters, by talking about how I love outer wilds, literally one of the easiest puzzle games I have ever played. Can never talk about or say anything and have it mean anything. I just speak a different language or come from outer space.

      I almost want to say I wish I didn't think deeply about this stuff then. But thinking deeply about stuff is what gives me any meaning so I'm just fricked.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Well, maybe if you weren't such a ragingly autistic sperg and didn't bury the few nuggets of actual thought under a pile of self-indulgent verbal diarrhea, I would've read that. But that's not the case. Next time you post, try not to lament the tragedy of your own massive intelligence, because it does nothing but reveal that you are a homosexual.
        >no matter how many words I spill out
        Maybe stop spilling out words and start actually practicing discretion in what you do and don't say.

  31. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    or lmao, I forgot, what about the ironic aspect that Minish Cap is my favourite Zelda games despite how many people claim it's brain-dead while praising OoT to high heavens that doesn't even have puzzles but whatever I just look stupid now pointing out information that obviously contradicts "you just don't like le simple easy game!"

    I also don't understand why anybody every criticizes BotW puzzles and shrines if "it's supposed to be easy and simple and that's fine" is a fine enough defense for all the beloved games like OoT that you're never allowed to criticize or else people's brains break.

  32. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Essaygay has to be one of the most obnoxious pseudo-namegays currently on this shithole, I made the mistake of engaging with his arguments and realized almost immediately that he is too fricking stupid and/or autistic to understand any point of view other than his own (while crying constantly about Ganker doing the same thing) and will accuse you of being bad faith or spewing buzzwords when he can't think of a response.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >I made the mistake of engaging with his arguments and realized almost immediately that he is too fricking stupid and/or autistic to understand any point of view other than his own
      Tragic, really.
      I await the day one of these essaygay autists can engage me intellectually on my own level. Too many dunning-kruger college age NEETs that think they've the pinnacle of human intelligence. I blame the american education system for instituting highschool english teachers that collectively determined word count is an ideal to strive towards.

      I've had plenty of good, stimulating debates on this site over the years, but never with an essaygay.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I just wish he'd adopt a tripcode like I told him a while back just so that I could filter these threads entirely and never have to see this shit again.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >I just wish he'd adopt a tripcode like I told him a while back just so that I could filter these threads entirely and never have to see this shit again.
        can you do this op? let me filter you and i promise i wont shit up your shit threads anymore

  33. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP you should make a thread about Metroid Other M or Armored Core, it would be the most kino thread Ganker has ever seen

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      not op but why armoured core? I'm guessing metroid other m because contrarian memes

  34. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Erudition precipitates loquacity.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        nothing erudite about this mongoloid

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Its actually the opposite. As recent LLMs have shown, true intelligence is a form of compression.
          Not sure why Essaygay insists on spewing uncompressed noise.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's super obvious that they don't proofread THEIR posts and just rely on phone autocorrect to carry THEIR grammar. It's pathetic really, it's just endless word vomit like this is discord or something. I don't know what forum encourages that behaviour, or if it's just a phoneposter habit.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              There's no grammatical reason to put "super" before obvious. That's a redundant use of words. "Obvious" is already an emphatic word. Also "phoneposter" isn't a word and even if it was. It would be two separate words.

              Subhuman worthless moron. Don't bother attempting to try and lecture me again. You have zero self awareness of how stupid you are.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >he has to cope THIS hard after being called out on a ESL-tier grammar mistake
                I am laffin'
                Also, clear signs of autism, if it wasn't super obvious already.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Thinks LLMs are indicative of intelligence.

            lmao says it all. is this that typical case of compsci morons thinking they found a breakthrough that explain every other subject?

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              who are you quoting?

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Wrong, I view them as a form of advanced compression.
              The fact that other users interpret this as intelligence implies the link.

  35. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    have a nice day

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I was waiting for and expecting this one. Just wondering how long it would take. Never a good soul in these threads...well I guess sometimes. I did meet that one guy in the last thread, but they get drowned out by the rest of everyone else, especially since our convo had to end eventually since we couldn't get into the nitty gritty, or atleast he didn't seem to want to. So I didn't wanna push. Since it was a far better interaction than what's typical.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Never a good soul in these threads
        No offense, but when you make an abortion it's only natural it'll be cast aside with all the other unborn fetuses. No intelligent life, just lost unborn souls desperately seeking anything to latch onto.

  36. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >drop my analysis on the entire series
    >go straight back into finishing skyward sword
    >suddenly enjoying it

    can never tell with this game. might be placebo. I sometimes have random spurts of enjoyment in predungeon sections and SOME dungeon sections like sand ship and near end of cistern. I think if nothing else ss dungeons attempt to be very distinct and go all in on their unique gimmick, not sure whether that's enough of what I'm looking for, but I respect it nonetheless.

    just for anyone who's wondering what I meant about SS near the end of my spiel

  37. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Serious question, why don't you write on a forum or something so your posts last and can eventually find someone who thinks like you?

    I feel like I've seen you before and you ignored all actual engagement to keep posturing about being a tortured genius because nobody cares about your vapid but relatively long Ganker posts.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Serious question, why don't you write on a forum or something so your posts last and can eventually find someone who thinks like you?

      Because forums are slow and formatted horribly for arguments. Instead of actually scrolling all the way down a thread I have to tediously press next page. That's stupid.

      >I feel like I've seen you before and you ignored all actual engagement to keep posturing about being a tortured genius because nobody cares about your vapid but relatively long Ganker posts.

      Yeah, you have no idea what words mean.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Here everything you say will be thrown away constantly. People could actually read back a canon of your thoughts on a forum and build a systematic understanding of what you're trying to say.

        Of course, I suspect that's exactly what you're afraid of.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Here everything you say will be thrown away constantly. People could actually read back a canon of your thoughts on a forum and build a systematic understanding of what you're trying to say.

          Posts "last" on any platform. Part of a fundemental aspect of a platform is reach and engagement. It doesn't matter whether something technically "lasts" forever if nobody sees it enough for it to ever be noticed on any relevant page. Also I've already been on Reddit before not only do posts staying up longer not mean much In the way of debate (matter more for site culture but that's different) but every post eventually has to be archived.

          Also, ironically despite how horrible it is for discussion. Twitter long threads (think /12 threads( and this place seem like the only place where long shit like this could maybe work.

          Anyway not responding further, you don't seem good faith anyway

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Instead of actually scrolling all the way down a thread I have to tediously press next page
        Ganker is like a forum where 500 posts mark a page.
        And then it gets deleted.

        Do you have any idea how tedious it is to trace your post to a previous thread, which then links back to another thread which is no longer locally archived, so then the next step is to pull up an external archive and plug in the post number?
        You don't even use a trip to help with searching. It's not entirely clear which replies are your own, and you've already acknowledged its 90% off topic haters.
        You just expect an anon to magically have months of context on your ramblings and how to engage with you in a way where you won't immediately discard them as disingenuous?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Do you have any idea how tedious it is to trace your post to a previous thread, which then links back to another thread which is no longer locally archived, so then the next step is to pull up an external archive and plug in the post number?

          I agree and understand. But only one part of anything I said relies on that. And I made sure to post the link for the very first one before the thread got deleted for good.

          >You just expect an anon to magically have months of context on your ramblings and how to engage with you in a way where you won't immediately discard them as disingenuous?

          Yes "ramblings". This will surely not be a waste of time.

          Uh no. I expect that when I tell a moronic anon this:

          uh huh. because I praised woodfall and forbidden woods, or sandship because they're so complicated and hardcore.

          idk man whatever. I literally do not think I could be understood no matter how many words I spill out. just have to accept that I live in a completely different universe from most people where nuance doesn't make sense. I can never like specific aspects of things, and dislike others. I can never stress how little difficulty matters, by talking about how I love outer wilds, literally one of the easiest puzzle games I have ever played. Can never talk about or say anything and have it mean anything. I just speak a different language or come from outer space.

          I almost want to say I wish I didn't think deeply about this stuff then. But thinking deeply about stuff is what gives me any meaning so I'm just fricked.

          or lmao, I forgot, what about the ironic aspect that Minish Cap is my favourite Zelda games despite how many people claim it's brain-dead while praising OoT to high heavens that doesn't even have puzzles but whatever I just look stupid now pointing out information that obviously contradicts "you just don't like le simple easy game!"

          I also don't understand why anybody every criticizes BotW puzzles and shrines if "it's supposed to be easy and simple and that's fine" is a fine enough defense for all the beloved games like OoT that you're never allowed to criticize or else people's brains break.

          That doesn't take the basic amount of effort to atleast read everything I said if they're going to try and reply and give an answer anyway. That they atleast listen and take that into consideration instead of sperging like a typical moronic Gankeranon whenever called out on there blatant stupidity. And start throwing a bunch of predictable adhoms

          lol

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >sperging like a typical moronic Gankeranon... And start throwing a bunch of predictable adhoms
            lol
            >whenever called out on there blatant stupidity
            >there
            HAHAHAHAHH LMAOOOOOOOOO DUMBFRICK

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Well i cant deal with all that baggage, so please reply to this with a yes or no:
            Do you enjoy fromsoft games?

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Well i cant deal with all that baggage, so please reply to this with a yes or no:

              I didn't ask you to deal with anything. So no, I won't answer. Besides. My answer isn't simple enough for a yes or no answer.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Is it complex because I requested a collective opinion on the entire catalog?
                In my view, enjoyment of any singular game would constitute a yes.
                Regardless, I figured this might be the case. Herein lies the problem. I assume you may have written up some thoughts previously, but your threads are not structured in a searchable fashion. The chain operates more like a linked list, traversing deeper into past archives one by one thread until the relevent jnformation finally appears, that is, if it exists at all.

                I am legitimately curious though. Perhaps you could point me there, assuming you have previously discussed any?
                If not, I understand.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                they got filtered by zelda, you really think they beat a fromsoft game? I like your optimism
                >inb4 I don't HAVE to beat a game before I can spew essays about it

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They got filtered primarily by boredom, which is entirely understandable as 3D zeldas are mostly pretty boring for an experienced adult gamer.
                In a way, fromsoft games can also be boring once you realize it's all fundamentally the same rollslop.

                Still, I'm interested in their opinion, not mine. Doesn't look like I'll get anything unfortunately. At least I tried.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                wow. an actually non moronic anon that semi understands how fricking stupid and useless of a word "filtered" can be?

                I legit almost didn't want to reply to anything more in the thread, because of the simple fact that a thought like this:

                they got filtered by zelda, you really think they beat a fromsoft game? I like your optimism
                >inb4 I don't HAVE to beat a game before I can spew essays about it

                can unironically exist uncontested, and unquestioned. anything I said in a thread were people look at this utter lack of any thought or self awareness and say nothing isn't worth the effort but... unfortunately I already responded, and possibly fortunately. somebody actually pushed back.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >understandable as 3D zeldas are mostly pretty boring for an experienced adult gamer.
                Exactly, this lil phoneposting zoomer wants to type essays about games for babies? It blows the mind. Btw they're still a child, hardly an 'experienced adult gamer'' lol. Let's give them some slack at least.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Is it complex because I requested a collective opinion on the entire catalog?

                Yes.
                >In my view, enjoyment of any singular game would constitute a yes.

                I disagree. Because there can be such fundemental differences that don't seem substantial on the surface.

                Even just in experience. For some reason a lot of people consider Elden Ring and DS3 to be the hardest games. I played both with no guides. And I found neither particularly hard. Frustrating. Unfair. Like the typical souls experience? Yes? But so hard that I was stuck respawning from a bonfire multiple times? Genuinely looking for different tactics or trying to learn how to parry? No.

                DS1 and DS2 are the hardest games for me. DS1 has one specific part that I couldn't "solve" (that's another aspect to the differences. In DS1 I have to solve encounters. In ER and DS3. I don't think. I just have to memorize patterns harder.) That I legit stopped playing the game for months.

                For anyone that cares it's that one encounter with wheel skeletons in a tight corridor on painted island. You can't just run past because you have no idea where to go, and it's a tight corridor so you can't just dodge roll through everything like a brainrotted moron. And you can't hold up your shield either because they shred stamina.

                Some moron is going to tell me something about how malenia is harder or whatever. But I can bang my head against the wall there. I'm sure I'll figure this encounter out. It's just that it requires me to actually think about and understand the mechanics of the game to get past. I can think of like a dozen different examples of this btw in the game.

                And this isn't even actually the most fundemental difference. The most fundemental difference is level design, bonfires and estus but...now I'm rambling.

                >am legitimately curious though. Perhaps you could point me there, assuming you have previously discussed any?

                curious about what? what do you need to know?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >curious about what? what do you need to know?
                I was curious if you do have past writing on them in an archived thread. No point reinventing the wheel.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I was curious if you do have past writing on them in an archived thread.

                past writing on what? Fromsoft games? I don't talk about them much because almost everything that's I could say about them has already been said. I COULD make some points about narratives and how despite the fact that I hate DS2. If you break down a lot of the type of arguments people make against it. It starts bordering on psychosis. Or about how DS3 is shit, even when it comes to bosses. People remember the 2 or 3 good mainline ones but forget the rest of the most of them that are closer to Demon Souls/DS3 bosses like the greatwood tree or whatever it's name is.

                I don't actually think those type of bosses are bad on principle. People just use them to shit on DS1 and DS

                So if you want my nuanced opinion on Fromsoft it doesn't exist in an archive. Ive said some things against Elden Ring a couple of times, or why DS1 is so good that typically just get ignored. But I wouldn't be able to find them.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Newer games are mechanically difficult. Bosses have more and faster patterns to develop muscle memory for.
                Older souls games had more strategic difficulty, and put more emphasis on navigating to even reach the boss arenas.
                This shift from strategy to mechanics seems to be the general trend in gaming. I noticed the same decay while replaying the monster hunter series recently, and it's clearly visible in final fantasy simplifying dungeons and dropping turn based.

                >I was curious if you do have past writing on them in an archived thread.

                past writing on what? Fromsoft games? I don't talk about them much because almost everything that's I could say about them has already been said. I COULD make some points about narratives and how despite the fact that I hate DS2. If you break down a lot of the type of arguments people make against it. It starts bordering on psychosis. Or about how DS3 is shit, even when it comes to bosses. People remember the 2 or 3 good mainline ones but forget the rest of the most of them that are closer to Demon Souls/DS3 bosses like the greatwood tree or whatever it's name is.

                I don't actually think those type of bosses are bad on principle. People just use them to shit on DS1 and DS

                So if you want my nuanced opinion on Fromsoft it doesn't exist in an archive. Ive said some things against Elden Ring a couple of times, or why DS1 is so good that typically just get ignored. But I wouldn't be able to find them.

                That's fine. It's 5am now anyway. Perhaps I'll find you again next thread.
                As I've read more, my opinion of you has improved. I initially had you pinned as the booger eating, chair sniffing sort of autist, but im learning there's much more depth. Your memory for random details is impressive.
                I think that when you complain about anons arguing over basic subjective concepts like purely stating a game is fun, that may truly be all that they remember. For normal people, sounds and smells make for the strongest memories. All else slowly fades. Someone who beat OOT as an 8 year old can't remember which dungeons are trash. All they know is infinite nostalgia for lost woods theme.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Newer games are mechanically difficult. Bosses have more and faster patterns to develop muscle memory for.
                >Older souls games had more strategic difficulty, and put more emphasis on navigating to even reach the boss arenas.
                >This shift from strategy to mechanics seems to be the general trend in gaming.

                Yeah. This makes sense. I just find the newer stuff boring. Because it's just a matter of how much I care to memorize some patterns and it triggers me for 2 reasons. Reason one. Because it just feels so incredibly one dimensional to just roll roll roll nonstop. And 2 I will sometimes get this weird feeling with games. I wonder if anybody else gets it. Where a game with "demand" something of me. But because I don't respect that thing it demands. I get triggered at how much effort it's expecting me to put into something I consider simple or straightforward. Frick I feel like I used to have an example of this but I can't think of one right now. The closest thing in memory is maybe the Twilight Princess Escort mission? I kept failing that one because it just triggered me that the game actually expected me to care about going through some annoying gimmicky sequence and actually bothered to not make it brain-dead.

                >I noticed the same decay while replaying the monster hunter series recently, and it's clearly visible in final fantasy simplifying dungeons and dropping turn based.

                Ive been recommend Monster Hunter games before. Didn't like World, felt boring and mashy. What is one you find to be worth a play? Maybe you like world and MH just isn't for me lmao.

                >As I've read more, my opinion of you has improved. I initially had you pinned as the booger eating, chair sniffing sort of autist, but im learning there's much more depth.

                Yeah. seems to be how I come across to most. I know it's not true so, it's frustrating having to deal with stuff people push onto me and expect me to answer to.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                TL;DR: literal Einstein genius essaygay gets upset when a game is somehow difficult for him. "Must be cause game is shit because I'm a genius!"

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                there's nothing mechanically difficult or exciting about roll slopping yourself to victory for the 15th time

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Your memory for random details is impressive.

                huh, that's interesting. I never thought of it like that. I would never think of myself as having a good memory, but I recently remember in one my past threads somebody asking how people (referring to me and one other) even remember such specific details about dungeons to have these conversations.

                if that was the case I wish people would just be more humble and honest instead of throwing a dozen buzzwords and labels about how I'm autist, schizo, pretentious, some variation of "gay" etc.

                I mean. It'd still be depressing knowing I can't have the conversations I want. But itd be a bit easier to accept.

                >All they know is infinite nostalgia for lost woods theme.

                I hate this theme so much now lmao. I just find it grating and annoying. Being stuck in lost woods the second time due to some trial error + wonky memory will do that.

                >Perhaps I'll find you again next thread.

                Yeah. Unlucky. This always happens when I meet somebody decent in a thread. They always have to go. Funnily enough it's also 5 for me. but I have a poor sleep schedule so I'll be up a while. Good night, and hopefully I see you in another thread...if I don't just take another week break from Ganker.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Being stuck in lost woods the second time
                Hahahhaa the deeper you get into these posts the more exposure there is. I'm expecting to eventually see "I used a guide for X because it just didn't respect me! Also I didn't play Y I just watched a video on it"
                Please leave id rather see the 15th ff7 bait thread otd over this

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You have got to be fricking kidding me. They use imaginary puzzles they haven't even 'figured out' yet as their best example of something? Memory of 'random details' lmfao, is that all it takes to impress you? Holy crap. OP is so full of shit. And thanks to you sucking them off, they suddenly think they're god's greatest gift to man. Thanks, dipshit. You just complimented the biggest narcissist I have ever met.

                I don't know why I bothered entering this thread, I guess I'm just bored. All those words OP says yet most of it is worthless.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                it's literally the best thread on the board right now, this board sucks so much wiener

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >You can't just run past because you have no idea where to go, and it's a tight corridor
                You don't even have to go in that corridor. You can just go down into the well, turn the mechanism (WHICH SHOWS YOU A CUTSCENE OF WHERE TO GO NEXT) and gtfo straight after. Sidestepping the wheel skeletons in a relatively wide open space is piss easy, no rolling like a 'brainrotted moron' necessary. I like the way you dismiss rolling as a viable strat regardless, because hey it worked on my machine. Git gud and all that.

                >requires me to actually think about and understand the mechanics of the game to get past.
                You literally just walked past the solution, you absolute moron. You only have to USE YOUR FRICKING EYES to see it. THIS is why you praise DS1? Fricking hell. I am blown away you are this moronic. Somehow you *think* there's a puzzle to be solved, and THAT'S why the game is good? THIS IS EXACTLY WHY PEOPLE SAY YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE GAME TO HAVE WORTHWHILE OPINONS OF THEM.

                Going back a step. You got 'filtered' by an entirely optional corridor in an already optional area. You didn't fully explore the areas you already had access to, and you quit the game for MONTHS because of this??
                Let me guess, you just magically happened to find your way back to the asylum. You just magically happened to go back to your starting cell and get the doll and then the painting etc. I legitimately believe that there is such a tiny fraction of players that will experience all this blind on their first playthrough. But hey essaygay, maybe you are just that special. lol.

                >Some moron is going to tell me something about how malenia is harder
                lmao. Just lmao. Malenia is optional too lil bro, don't worry. You can beat the game without going down that 'corridor' either. Little pussy b***h, it just goes to show that you haven't played Elden Ring enough either.

                I'm glad you outed yourself as one of these 'brainrotted morons' you malign so much. It's quite entertaining.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You've gotta be trolling at this point. I e read through these posts and every time I'm able to clearly see what you're trying to say, and then just as easily can understand what the other anons are saying on response, then you mentally break down saying "your words mean nothing!" every time. Literally frick off. You're not as intelligent as you think, you're just wordy. You get off to your own posts because you think you're smarter than you really are but you're too fricking moronic to understand anyone else. Actual sociopath.

  38. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP is literally Rufus from Street Fighter

  39. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Zelda is the new Samus.

    https://strawpoll.com/7MZ0k86D8go

  40. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    *sigh*
    Sooooo, how come the homosexual OP didn't delete the Ganker app like they promised?
    Frick we were so close, they even had the SomethingAwful app installed.
    Wouldn't be surprised though if they got banned there too and that's why we ended up with that blithering moron here again.
    No bump for (you) btw.

  41. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i've put over 220 hours into ToTTK, beat the game and did most of the content.
    Show me the best underrated areas to explore

  42. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    anyway I'm wondering if I have to move on to 2D Zelda now.

    All I have left to play is TotK. But the game feels manipulative. I'm enjoying it, but I literally have done like a quarter of the gameplay I've done in all the 3D Zelda games combined. I legit have 30 hours of just picking shit up and farming ore and Poe's. Neither of which I have any clue of the purpose of. Which means in just picking shit up for the frick of it. Reminds me a lot actually of mobile game loops but I'm not sure anybody here will understand what I mean.

    Was hoping for this thread to maybe convince me somehow to give TP and OoT another chance but I just don't see it. With the type of people that seem to dominate this board. People that constantly say moronic shit like "I le tried to have earnest conversation! Of course it was earnest because I said so and felt so! It's not like theres literally an abundance of objective evidence that says that people can purely and genuinely believe in something delusional or fallacious, and as if that isn't the entire underpinning principle of "good faith" and not like the word wasn't created to explain how somebody can GENUINELY whole heartedly earnestly commit something like an adhom or strawman and not realize how it's bad".

    But it's whatever. After I literally explained to that one dude about how my problem isn't them being "casual" or "easy" games and he just flipped out like a moron for being proven wrong. Something tells me this place doesn't value right or wrong inherently. Like with the example of the grammar dude. People will use "right" or wrong to attack you. Not genuinely correct some instance of unclarity.

    Well, anyway I'm ranting now. I see a lot of good said about Links Awakening. So maybe I'll go play that one. Just have to figure out whether to give up on TotK or atleast see one temple.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      play okami

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >now we will have okami threads ruined by essaygay
        thanks moron.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I already played it. Worse intro than even the longest 3D Zelda game. So bad that I legit quit as soon as I entered the first dungeon because I was tired of the game already.

        What's so meaningfully different about it? Is it actually the one? I'm willing to give it another try...maybe.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          take ur adhd meds already holy shit kys

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          play okami

          op here, so what's the deal with Okami? is it worth? what makes it different to the 3D Zeldas I talked about?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >anyway I'm wondering if I have to move on to 2D Zelda now.
      For the the love of god yes. Play the Oracles. We've told you a billion times to, especially given you love Minish Cap and the same devs made them and they're more extensive.

      play okami

      >play okami

      [...]
      op here, so what's the deal with Okami? is it worth? what makes it different to the 3D Zeldas I talked about?

      This dude is absolutely a troll. He no doubt knows you'd absolutely despite the game, given it takes everything wrong with 3D Zelda and does it far worse somehow. I don't understand how Okami fans exist besides being extremely hipster Japanophiles.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Oracle of Ages has an ungodly amount of pausing to switch items.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >I don't understand how Okami fans exist
        if you want a real answer its because it was on PS2 and it was pretty much snoy gays of that generations way of coping they couldnt compete with zelda. everyone i ever met as a kid that praised okami didnt have a nintendo console, and every time i tried to play okami due to the praise they gave it, i would get mind numbingly bored and just turn it off

  43. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    When is essaygay going to do an essay on KH2 Level 1 Crit Mode

  44. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >an entirely optional area you have to read a guide to get to
    ok this dumbfrick isn't even trying anymore.

  45. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    dead thread

  46. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP I understand you but am simply too lazy to respond satisfactorily sorry

  47. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Genuine question,
    Has there ever been a bad Zelda game? They all seem to be fricking great.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      CDI

  48. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    kys op

  49. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Well guys can this thread atleast not die until I figure out whether Okami is the play. Or somebody supremely intelligent and not a generic Ganker anon convinces me I'm wrong about OoT, or TP and that I should totally give them a 4th chance, especially TP.

    OR somebody brings down the hammer absolutely and demonstrates a sufficient understanding of my criticisms and affirms that I will only find what I want in 2D Zelda...

    I'm asking for too much arent I. Ganker could never be that good. The board will never change. I will likely never find a real reason to continue staying on this board effort posting. 90% of front page threads will be coomer bait, rage bait, polbait, twitter screencap bait, news bait, femboy/trans bait. And I'll never stop feeling weirdly alienated and like I can never comfortably participate in anything out of pure interest and expression because human beings are fundementally "wrong". Never right. Never really feel human. Only either like NPC's, AI, or animals that can never understand anything beyond they're incredibly limited and narrow minded preprogrammed perspective. Whether programmed by another human. Or programmed by life itself.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Nah, go frick yourself.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >"I'm too autistic to determine if I like something .. Ganker do I like this??"
      Meanwhile
      >"Ganker is too stupid acknowledge how wise I am!"
      I think TP is trash but I think you're even more moronic than someone who can just enjoy something for the sake of it. Get a job

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      if you didn't like most 3d Zelda's then Okami would down right offend you with how absent of brain engagement it is

  50. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Ive been thinking and I'm wondering if TotK is the one. Is the only Zelda game I've been able to brain off enjoy recently despite being literally brain-dead and pissy easy/simple. I'll probably play Links Awakening. See how I feel and then maybe Oracle's because I've been recommended this one?

    I wish I could talk to somebody interesting that could offer some indepth perspective on why they think TotK actually DOES have good gameplay.

    I mean it HAS to be doing something good if I'm enjoying it even this much whereas I literally couldn't stand BotW (ironic. It's a OoT and Majora situation again where enjoyed the latter significantly more than the former initially) But the only idea I've got so far is the depths. Which is actually somewhat interesting to navigate and IS the only part of the game that actually feels "adventure" since I need to be prepared with resources to navigate it. Avoid dangerous environmental hazards. Find faster and better ways to navigate it etc.

    But anyway...yeah. It's unfortunate that no matter what I'll always get the same predictable type of responses, and for some reason Ganker REALLY is like AI, so no matter how much I bring awareness to this, they'll adamantly stick to this very specific line of thought and never entertain nuance. Because Im still wonky feeling on TP. Just worried I'm missing on THE traditional 3D Zelda because I've heard so much that it's latter half is so much better than the first half but fuuuuck man that first half was so disappointing I don't want to carry on for no good reason.

    I'm just ranting to myself now which frustrates me. Knowing none of this will matter no matter what. On one hand. Taking the break will mean the Gankertards that pretend they care about "discussion" only to spite me when I say I do will win. But on the other hand I don't want to give them any more satisfaction of how utterly garbage this board is that it's scared of words and nuance. Cannot tolerate anything it bait and circlejerks.

    FRICK.

  51. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    jeez louise op is a gay

  52. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Just coming in to say OP is a homosexual and the best Zeldas are ALTTP, OOT, MM and LA. Most of the other games have serious flaws and should not be considered. Thank you!

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      troony post

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Cope

  53. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    essaygay keep please posting!!

    i don't always have something to say in your threads but it's nice to see someone trying to encourage thoughtful discussion on Ganker (even if you're a bit too wordy)

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      if only that thoughtful discussion came from someone worthwhile. That's the problem.

  54. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    OP was this you?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Anon they've made hundreds of threads at this point, keep up

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Just found this in the other thread. I suppose I don't click on most of his OPs because they sound so tedious.

        This all being one person makes more sense than multiple people developing this extremely particular neurosis (developing a martyr-complex over posting video essay babble on Ganker and filling entire threads with feeling sorry for yourself over a lack of engagement (while dismissing all engagement)),

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