>reuse the previous game's map with the excuse that there will be sky islands and caves to explore
>the sky islands are empty
>the underground hyrule is empty
>claim traditional dungeons are back
>they are actually renamed divine beasts, probably unused ones from botw
Luckily, (You) don't have to play it.
Oh, and I'm glad "Zelda," as in remaking OoT over and over again for nostalgic boomers to goon over, is dead.
Go retire to Ganker.
They’re still remaking OoT though
Like you’re still going around meeting representatives of different races to gain powers to beat Ganon complete with rehashing names, places and objects from OoT
You broke the zoomer
He doesn't know how to respond
You waited 2 minutes before responding to yourself...
The main story in TotK is like 15% of the game at max so no.
Yeah the rest is 152 shrines, 900 koroks and 200 copy paste skyrim caves that always have a bubbulfrog after a straight shot through them
Say what you will, but the NPCs are way more fun in this game than the last. Also, way more physics fuckery.
By this logic, all games in a series are remakes of older games in the same because they are vaguely contiguous and are self-referential. Am I missing something, oldfag?
That's not remaking OoT, that's just making a fucking Zelda game
Rauru was the name of a town in Zelda 2 and OOT is a remake of Link to the Past
>the leader of the sages being named Rauru is akshually referencing Zelda 2 and not Ocarina
no you meet peoples
At least Purah isn't Trans and Robbie isn't a gay... yet.
How are 4chanfags mad at this?
>How are 4chanfags mad at this?
Because look at the rest of the industry. Nintendo has some shitty translations and a couple brown people (almost never actually black) here and there as unimportant side characters. Whereas you have Microsoft and Sony shoving a gay black woman as the main character of half their games at this point. Yeah I'm just gonna go ahead and stick with Nintendo who publishes a game where a white man impregnates 3 women in a polygamous marriage.
And they're all the same woman
Purrah is the one thing they got right, what an absolute semen demon.
She's the undisputed waifu of the year for Ganker, the coomer threads are still coming in hot and heavy for her while reddit and twitter are too busy cooming over goatmen and Zelda cheeks.
tbh it could easily be encroaching woke. Stuff like this can be the inch before the mile a lot of times, even though I'm still impressed by Nintendo's resistance to the woke.
Are you just unaware that race, people, and nation are all synonyms?
Race and nation are two entirely different things. Caucasians are a race, the United States is a nation.
No, the US is a 'nation-state' which is a term that got shortened to mindfuck zoomers into thinking that nation refers to the economic zone you reside in. The word nation has the same root as 'natal'. It refers to your birth, your blood. Look up the actual history of the word.
No one wants them to remake OoT we just want dungeons to be the focus of the series again. Like it always has been since Zelda 1. Every game was about getting to and completing the next dungeon. Now it's 99% overworld 1% dungeons.
What happened to Zelda is like if Mario decided to expand on the world map idea and all the levels ended up being single screens with one challenge each.
That’s practically what Bowsers Fury is, one big map screen with tiny bite-sized “levels” sprinkled in
Open world is killing creative level and world design
OoT sucks and what they've actually been remaking is LttP, which is a good thing actually
heres your remake bro
I am lucky that I don't have to play it, or any of the other botw clones that will come out because of how successful the reskin and use of abandoned ideas were. When "botw: consume the cum chalice" comes out as the 7th entry in the series, this time adding a backroom to that one inn you visited one time, I'm sure you'll be screaming with excitement, but I'll still kiss classic zelda games.
Zelda is only good when it's a linear game disguised as open world
>zelda is dead
Yours is. But it's been replaced by something that isn't leaving.
God I want to fuck Paya
Divine beasts were legit better than these nothing dungeons.
What the fuck happened??
No they werent lol, you have nostalgia for botw because youre a retarded zoomer, thats what happened
Divine Beasts are not even mentioned in this game. Did they just disappear? TotK is such a lazy shit sequel.
All the guardian tech was disassembled and re-engineered. That's the whole point of Purah/Robbie's tech regime. It's explained early in the game.
>we have these giant robots to weaken ganon
>lets take them apart
So he couldn't take them over and do the calamity again.
but they were purified and firing beams at the castle?
>we have these giant robots to weaken ganon
For the record they didn't realize there was a genocidal mummy living under their castle.
those 4 beasts made to weaken ganon could have done it again?
Nah they got tired
>Divine Beasts are not even mentioned in this game. Did they just disappear? TotK is such a lazy shit sequel.
I'd imagine they just fucking scrapped them. Without the calamity they're completely useless and take up a shitload of space. Wouldn't be surprised if Purah and Robbie scrapped them for parts.
its extremely lazy, nintendo learned from gamefreak that the quality doesnt matter, theyve hit the nostalgia era when nothing they do matters
At least the game fucking works at launch, which can't be said for 90% of other AAA shit.
>game drops to 5 fps when using abilities
on emulator, yes.
>whats that is it trendy to hat totk and like botw now? I must parrot I like the divine beasts now!
Definitely a weird take from my fellow zoomer. I liked the beasts but hated the bosses, and in this game I don't like the dungeons but I love the bosses.
It's game of the decade
It's not even game of the year, retard.
Your nom? Other than Pizza Tower and Dead Space, maybe RE4 I can't think of shit because this year is terrible lol.
Hi-Fi Rush. Atleast it was original. and the year is not even over yet anyway.
It's not even the game of this quarter of this year lmao
That says more about this decade than it does about the game, frankly.
It's really unfortunate that TotK is releasing at the end of a console generation instead of at the start, because it's gonna be quickly overshadowed by the next console and not get the sort of recognition it deserves. Kind of happened with Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword as well.
I think people will end up remembering BotW more fondly even though TotK is better in every way.
It also helped a ton that BOTW was way more of a fresh kind of game when it came out. It was super influential and well-received and defined RPGs to this day. TOTK may be a better game, but it isn't more original or innovative than the first one.
It cant be as innovative as BotW, which entered an entirely new genre, but I do feel that TotK still changed a lot. I was expecting it to just be more BotW but it really isn't. The gameplay is very different with the focus on ultra hand and fuse as well as the introduction of the underground and more focus on story and characters. And the atmosphere is very different compared to BotW.
I really think if this released at the start of the switch 2 it would have had a BotW like impact, with everyone absolutely obsessed with it for years, but releasing at the end it's gonna be overshadowed hard as soon as they show the next 3D Mario and Mario Kart 9.
>I was expecting it to just be more BotW but it really isn't.
this is just a blatant lie
YOU MUST SEETHE HARDER
How? BotW and TotK are both puzzle games, and TotK's puzzles are radically different because ultra hand has very little in common with the abilities in BotW. I was expecting the abilities to be more similar to BotW's, kind of like Rewind is to Stasis, but Ultra Hand is very different and is the basis of most puzzles.
Ultra Hand is just Magnesis with rotation and a glue button
>Ultra Hand is just Magnesis with rotation and a glue button
Moving the stuff around is by far the least important of Ultra Hand's functions.
There was absolutely nothing innovative about BOTW. Dont get me wrong, its a great, 9/10 game. But not because it invented anything new. Its a great amalgation of previously existibg games and ideas. Obly someone who plays nothing but nintendo games could say BOTW was innovative.
I didn't say it was original at all lol, I was just saying that from a game design and template for other games standpoint it was innovative. Influential probably would have been a better word for me to use.
>Its a great amalgation of previously existibg games and ideas
This is what innovation is. Its not just enough to come up with new ideas, you have to implement those ideas into a framework that makes sense.
>Innovation is ripping off Ubisoft
Every mechanic and design choice in OoT was in a previous game. Yet we remember OoT for inventing 3D action adventure games. It's not enough to just have an idea, you need to use that idea to meaningfully contribute to a game's design.
In many ways (especially story and dungeons) TotK is worse than BotW.
The story is by far the largest improvement in TotK. BotW's story fucking sucked. Most of it was told in the past tense and to get actual character depth you had to buy the DLC.
What character depth does TotK have?
NPCs in this game are WAY better and more developed than in BOTW.
The NPCs in the towns and villages. They all have more interesting dialogue and backgrounds that build upon their BOTW versions quite a bit.
>But they don't give me a level up so there's no point in talking to them
His inevitable response. Soon this dipshit is going to be telling us he doesn't shower because no one gives him money for doing it.
The NPCs are boring. They're all just anime stereotypes with three lines of dialogue. Hateno village in particular is shit.
Name an example. You can't.
Symin, the former lab assistant for Purah in Hateno. He's now a schoolteacher grappling with the issue of teaching the calamity to schoolkids and trying to reestablish a sense of stability and normalcy amidst the chaos of the period. Cool arc for him, I'm happy they didn't just make him another Sheikah research guy.
So the scientist is now a teacher? Amazing character development. 10/10 writing.
I'm not defending TotK, I agree with the premise that it's overall worse than BotW
I'm arguing that BotW was innovative despite pulling on established ideas. It packaged those ideas into a formula that was much better than any adventure game before it, and it heavily influenced a shit load of games coming after it.
Ubisoft tower sims and TES are horrible abortions of game design.
Yea and literally everything BOTW did had already been meaningfully done. 15 years ago. Botw was just very polished.
Believe it or not, polish matters. It's cool that I can ride a horse around in Skyrim but when he starts walking vertically up a mountain it does hurt the experience.
Yeah but fixing that has nothing to do with innovation. You’re an autistic tendy who just has to fit a square peg through a round hole so you can justify showering nintendo with every positive adjective found in the dictionary. You’re the kind of retard who would call Fifa 23 innovative because they fixed a bug from fifa 22.
It runs at 25 fps
10 million copies. Seethe.
Appealing to popularity is a logical fallacy.
Skyward Sword sucked so it was rightfully buried, Majora's Mask was always going to be considered a side story carried by a fucking enormous advertising campaign (people forget about this a lot)
ToTK is selling even faster than BOTW and is considered the same game but better, BOTW might literally go down as a tech demo or prologue
BotW had better shrine puzzles than TotK. I wouldn't say TotK is really better, more like a side-grade.
I'd say that and the tutorial are the only things that suck ass in this compared to BOTW so far.
The temples are arguably worse. True they look nicer but they lack the movement puzzles of BotW, making them pretty boring.
Agreed. But the better bosses make up for it imo.
>even though TotK is better in every way
I’ve only played ~20 hours so far but I know this isn’t the case. Even in the opening hours BotW’s Great Plateau is far superior to TotK’s Great Sky Island.
Even when you consider the core loop of the games; TotK is much more busy and unfocused. It’s very cluttered. It’s not just “better in every way” unless your opinion is just that more is always better in which case I don’t care much what you think.
I'm not really comparing the tutorials because..they're fucking tutorials. But I would argue BotW's is worse because it effectively spoiled too much of the rest of the game. Whereas TotK reveals less of the game's upcoming content and game design.
> I'm not really comparing the tutorials because..they're fucking tutorials.
They take 2-5 hours to fully experience. They’re not regular “tutorials” they’re miniature open worlds that let the player get accustomed to what they can expect in the rest of the game. They’re important. You’re diminishing that importance because it doesn’t suit your narrative.
>I would argue BotW's is worse because it effectively spoiled too much of the rest of the game.
>Whereas TotK reveals less of the game's upcoming content and game design.
How so? They forecast crafting, building, cooking, skydiving, all the arm abilities, and even descending to a world below.
You’re coming off extremely fanboyish for a game that’s only been out a week.
BotW's tutorial was definitely more heavy handed, if you don't think so you probably didn't play the games. As a random example, there's a much larger variety of enemies in the great plateau compared to the great sky island. They show you almost every enemy in the game in BotW's tutorial.
Oh fuck off. I thought the oldfags here were right about this game just judging by the tutorial in TOTK, which was so tedious, unnecessary and long it bored me to death. Luckily, the rest of the game is pretty great.
I'm not even arguing that the TotK tutorial was particularly fun. I'm arguing it was better as a tutorial because it showed less of the game's content. I think BotW was way too aggressive in spoonfeeding so much of the game to the player in the first few hours. TotK has the confidence that the player wont quit in the first few hours so it holds a lot more back.
>if you don't think so you probably didn't play the games
You morons are delusional
>BotW's tutorial was definitely more heavy handed
I don't agree, it was shorted and let you walk around plateau in any way you wanted
M I N D B R O K E N
wtf are your talking about nintendo fags love rebuying games
temples can be fun minigame types of content, but the main "temples" are kinda meh.
getting to the wind temple was more fun than the wind temple itself, and that was just platforming/gliding mainly. now, if they took the core of BOTW and added OOT style dungeons and item progression, i'd love it.
*shrines I mean
what is missing from botw/totk is structure and meaningful progression, it shouldn't just be "do 50 random shrines, then 4 temples in any order, then ganon", it's not linear but at the same time that limits how you can make the game. I'd take OOT's story over doing various shrines randomly.
Bros does attaching a rocket to a weapon do anything special or is just damage? I know what happens when you put one on a shield
They should have called this Tears of the buck broken with how much you queers have been crying about it.
Everyone point and laugh at the brainlet retard. It must be tough being forced to confront the fact that you’re simply too dumb for modern society and can’t enjoy the things that normal people love. No worries though, OP. You can go back to your little cave while the rest of us enjoy GOTY 🙂
I am also enjoying pizza tower!
Based. I think PT and TOTK are games of the year for Indies and AAA, imo.
>reuse the previous game's criticism with the excuse that "durr totk is dlc"
>the anon's brain is empty
>the anon's heart is empty
>claim TORtanic is back
>it is actually the same cope and seethe, probably unused from BotW
You're the only person claiming tortanic and you're spamming it
You ok, boo?
Beat the wind temple. The boss fight alone is better than any boss in botw so at least there's that.
This game has great bosses so far imo. I've done two and they kick the asses of the Blights. Monolith Soft influence is definitely strong in that department imo.
anyone who hates this game is a retard wordcel gay not a shape rotator chad
>the underground hyrule is empty
If there isn't gloom and steep inclines everywhere (forcing you to navigate more carefully than you would on the surface since it's dark as fuck), there are gloom enemies that take away your max health. If there are neither of those, there are poe souls you can collect for rare items when you discover statues. If there aren't those, there's the Yiga questline and autobuild, or even optional Yiga hideouts. If there isn't that, there are non-corroded weapons ONLY found in the depths that you get from spirit warriors. And if there isn't THAT, there's a bunch of mines, refineries, the spirit temple, coliseums, and rare unique armor marked by the treasure maps from above. No matter where you are in the depths, you WILL run into one of these things at any given moment.
I won't even bother addressing the rest of your post because it's so low-effort, but I'm just setting the record straight for people that might be on the fence while you retards seethe for another 6 years. It's phenomenal, stay assblasted.
Same stuff as the surface. Same enemies, same weapons. Who cares about poe souls?
Nah. It's a totally different map with totally different mechanics and stuff. It's fun but I'm still fucking around in the overworld. It'll be great postgame/lategame content.
>It's a totally different map with totally different mechanics and stuff
Are you a time-traveler playing BotW3, by any chance?
I'm talking about the depths lad.
The depths has the exact same enemies as above. Moblins, Hinoxs, the cube guys. There aren't even any puzzles underground, and that's the only decent part of TotK.
The depths primarily functions as a reward system for exploring caves on the surface. You have to expend brightbloom seeds in order to explore and harvest the valuable resources down there, and you obtain brightbloom seeds only by exploring caves.
There are no valuable resources in TotK because there is no meaningful progression.
>There are no valuable resources in TotK because there is no meaningful progression.
At the start of the game you are dying in one hit to nearly every enemy in the game, including generic mobs. How can you argue in such a game that there is no meaningful progression?
Doing the same shit from minute 1 to hour 150 except you can get hit more frequently barely feels like progress
Fine, there's no meaning progression outside of shrines. Killing monsters, exploring caves, doing sidequests, all pointless.
>actually playing the game and doing the shit you need to do to win
What's the deal with you guys?
In most cases you're better off ignoring monsters, they rarely drop weapons as good as what you carry. As for sidequest, as
pointed out the rewards aren't worth the time you invest in them.
>In most cases you're better off ignoring monsters, they rarely drop weapons as good as what you carry
Are you literally just recycling complaints from BotW? Because this game added the fuse system where you can attach monster parts to your weapons to make them 5 times as durable and 2-3x stronger. And god help those bokoblins if their camp has a spike ball because when you stick that shit on a stick you become an angry god.
>you can attach monster parts to your weapons to make them 5 times as durable and 2-3x stronger.
Why bother when you can just run past enemies? It's not like combat is fun anyway. Even ALTTP had better combat.
>Why play the game at all?
I was under the impression it was an improvement on BotW. It isn't.
>Even ALTTP had better combat.
I don't remember stealing all the enemy camp's bombs, attaching them to a bunch of sticks, standing up on top of their base and raining hell on them in alttp. Indeed, walking up and slapping the enemies to death is not very fun, but that's also usually a pretty inefficient way to kill them.
These oldfags have to be trolling, I just played Link's Awakening before this and the combat in that shit was insufferable even though I loved the game.
ALTTP didn't force you to pause combat every thirty seconds to equip a new weapon.
That’s why I play on pc. The 10x mod is enough. I hate breakable weapons.
At least you have new weapons you make and balance yourself instead of relying on your shitty dagger.
>attach monster parts to your weapons to make them 5 times as durable and 2-3x stronger
I fused one of the monster parts from the copy pasted Wind Temple boss in the depths to my master sword because the game constantly gives you good weapons that are already fused. I stopped picking up unfused items like half way through the game because my inventory was already filled with better shit. Master sword broke literally 3 swings after that. Bravo, great system
They just want something to be angry about. Even if the game played exactly like OOT, they would complain about it being a rehash.
Combat sucks and is pointless.
I genuinely don't think you've played this game.
What do you get from killing monsters, exploring caves, and doing sidequests? More food? More disposable weapons? Maybe a few rupees?
A complete sidequest for a 100% run. No different than any other AAA RPG lol. And some get you real stuff like armor and other weird items you can't get anywhere else.
>What do you get from killing monsters, exploring caves, and doing sidequests? More food? More disposable weapons? Maybe a few rupees?
The primary means of progression in the game are
A) Health/Stamina, which you gain from doing shrines
B) Armor/armor upgrades which you gain from exploring and fighting enemies
>the spirit temple
>It's a totally different map
Fucking tiktitk imbeciles. It's a same map swapped vertically and with walls instead of body of waters.
It's weird that Zelda is about physics puzzles now, but it could be worse.
fifa and cod are the best games ever made
I love this game but salesfags and reviewfags are the worst people lol.
They are in their respective genres yeah.
>They are in their respective genres yeah
Fuck off CODfag. I've played no shortage of FPS games better than the best COD game. Also, Mario Strikers.
>I've played no shortage of FPS games
It really doesn't matter. Cod sells so much because it's the best FPS series and Fifa the best sports series. You don't have to like it, but it's simply the truth.
Itit sells because of brand you gay just like zelda and certain other games.
Skyward sword sold like shit
selling a lot doesn't mean it's good, it just means normies have shit taste. PUBG is one of the most profitable games in history and it's trash.
Legend of Zelda TikTok is just the PUBG of Zelda
What would you guys' ideal Zelda be? I'm just curious because I hear a lot of criticism but no proposals, and I love these games. And don't just say "make OOT but better", oldfags.
Add some item-based puzzles, and a green tunic to Demon's Souls, and that would be my ideal Zelda game.
Sort of like an open world version of Twilight Princess? That actually sounds pretty based. I hope they do a dark/edgy sequel or game next because I think that would be great.
Make MM, but better.
It kind of is?
TotK unlike BotW has a large number of high quality side quests, which is what people liked about MM. Unless what you're looking for in a video game isn't the gameplay.
The sidequests are all MMO tier fetch quests
I've only played about 30 hours so far but they've been quite good so far. A very nice surprise because most of them were, as you describe, shitty MMO fetch quests in BotW. The story and characters have seen the biggest upgrade from BotW.
>they've been quite good so far
Which ones? I haven't seen a single one that wasn't straight out of WoW.
>Which ones? I haven't seen a single one that wasn't straight out of WoW.
Have you gone to Hateno?
>Retrieve a bottle from a lake
>Explore a cave
>Hand out mushrooms to villagers
>Teleport to the top of a tower
It's all generic and boring. You can't even vote in the election.
What are you expecting from side quests exactly? I'm honestly curious what is a good side quest to you? I thought your problem was fetch quests but apparently that's not what you're complaining about.
>What are you expecting from side quests exactly? I'm honestly curious what is a good side quest to you?
Give me some meaningful progression, like the Biggoron Sword quest in OoT or the Fierce Diety Mask from MM.
>Give me some meaningful progression, like the Biggoron Sword quest in OoT or the Fierce Diety Mask from MM.
Oh fuck off. I did the biggoron sword quest like 6 years ago and I fucking hated it. That was miserable. Also, MM's side quests were not particularly more involved than TotK's with the single exception of the kafei quest.
>I did the biggoron sword quest like 6 years ago and I fucking hated it. That was miserable.
Biggoron quest was kino, you just have shit taste. They make you EARN that sword, something TotK never does.
>Biggoron quest was kino, you just have shit taste. They make you EARN that sword, something TotK never does.
Yeah really earning it by backtracking all over the map over and over which takes 0 skill and only time.
>backtracking all over the map
I'm glad TotK never requires you to backtrack.
NTA but my gripe with the side quests is almost all of them reward you with garbage. The only side quests that felt worth it were for opening fairy fountains for upgrades. Most everything else is like “thanks for spending 30 minutes doing that quest here’s some Hispanicy rice balls LOL”
>here's some food
>oh sorry looks like you can't hold anymore please come back once you have space
FUCK YOU AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
There is a whole arc around village politics in Hateno that is super fun and fascinating. If you haven't gone over there yet you really should.
>super fun and fascinating
I think it gives more depth to the setting and lore of the town. It's cute, even if it's not gameplay heavy. I thought you wanted more plot/lore in this game?
Are you for real? The election side quest sucked ass.
I just want TotK with 8 actual dungeons. They easily could have done this if they didn't waste time on the stupid underground shit. The only good part of the underground besides the fire temple (and this really don't even add anything, it easily could have just been inside the volcano) being there was the first time you jump down and realize it even exists. After that it's all downhill when you start realizing there is basically nothing to do. God, I honestly don't understand how they blundered it so hard. I remember realizing there were isolated areas under some islands and getting excited to find the way in thinking someone cool would be in there, but it was actually nothing.
>but it was actually nothing
I'm currently playing BOTW for the first time and this is how I feel when I go literally anywhere in the world that isn't explicitly a shrine or a named landmark. It's just nothing and large swathes of map have nothing in them. Kind of unreal how that's still an issue in the sequel 5 years later.
I've got a funny feeling DLC will do this. Granted I'm with you on that, but I think they'll do expansion/DLC for it, as shitty as that would be.
>I've got a funny feeling DLC will do this. Granted I'm with you on that, but I think they'll do expansion/DLC for it, as shitty as that would be.
I think the DLC will be great. BotW DLC was mediocre but that's because most of it was spun off into making tears of the kingdom. I cant imagine they'll be doing another iterative sequel to BotW so they should just go all out with DLC.
Maybe so; I'm hyped for the DLC too, I just feel like it will put a bunch of stuff into the game that should have been there in the first place.
>I hear a lot of criticism but no proposals
It's all been said before
>traditional dungeons instead of 100+ "shrines"
>strong story with ever present supporting cast
>multiple play styles for each weapon type
>non destructible weapons earned though the story
>traversal powers and gear earned gradually
>meaningful exploration not 1K Korak seeds
>world can be smaller but more filled out
and so on. The problem with this new style is that it abandons staples of the series for a huge map that's mostly devoid of things to do save for busywork "puzzles" that add nothing to the experience. The reason OoT gets brought up so often is that it's what defined the series. With BotW and LoZ TikTok you could reskin some assets and change some names and no one would know it's a Zelda game. They have abandoned the very formula that defined Zelda games.
The thing is that BOTW/TOTK is ironically the traditional version of Zelda from the 2D era on a massive scale, with the same emphasis on exploration and puzzles from the older games just scaled up and in a different context. Also, you just described the vast majority of Soulslike games.
play them and come back and say that
He's not wrong. The 2D games were all about exploration and discovery. It was OoT that cut back on that because it was very hard to make a big explorable world in 3D with the limitations of the n64. By the Wii they really should have been able to do better but they felt forced to copy OoT anyway.
Yeah I remember all the copy paste shrines and babby difficulty in Zelda 1/2
I also remember being handed every major tool right at the start of the game
What difference does it really make when you unlock the tools?
It introduced progression and makes it so you can revisit old areas in a new context
>It introduced progression and makes it so you can revisit old areas in a new context
There's tons of progression in TotK. The game arguably rewards you too much.
>makes it so you can revisit old areas
Forgive me if I don't actually want to backtrack
>There's tons of progression in TotK. The game arguably rewards you too much.
Because oldfags LOVE backtracking more than anything in large-scale RPGs.
a lot, traversal powers traditionally were used to control access to new areas and were integral to the story, they were also integrated gradually so the player had to to master each on and integrate it in to combat. There is not really the same sense of reward for exploration and furthering the story when the bulk of things are just handed to you right at the start
>There is not really the same sense of reward for exploration and furthering the story when the bulk of things are just handed to you right at the start
But surely you realize your puzzle solving tools are not the only rewards a game can offer? For example, TotK rewards you for exploring the depths with unique armors and upgraded battery for the Ultra Hand ability. You can make the player feel rewarded for engaging with the game without arbitrarily locking off areas until he clears other ones in a specific order.
TotK is not even close to the old games. The old games had a dungeon order and required items from previous dungeons to get to and complete. It had a difficulty curve and got harder at the end. TotK has a reverse difficulty curve because you can go anywhere from the start and you only get stronger while the enemies stay the same. You clearly have not played them
>It had a difficulty curve and got harder at the end.
Did you know that BotW and TotK both have a system where the more enemies you kill the stronger enemies show up? It's to scale with you getting better armor and more hearts and it works quite well to keep the difficulty consistent.
No, I didn't realize that because I just flew over all of them. Why in the fuck would you fight anything in this TotK? So you can open the locked chest that gives a shittier weapon than all the ones you just broke trying to open it?
The enemies in this game and BOTW only get weaker if you sit around in a couple areas lol. Strength of enemies is determined by location as opposed to strength like almost all RPGs. Again, I mentioned that the restrictions on dungeons distinguished the old games from the new, so idk what the issue is. I was saying that mechanically they were very similar games on different scales.
I'm not even specifically talking about the enemies stats. I'm talking about the puzzles/level design as well. Every single temple in TotW is baby tier like a first dungeon would be in any otherZelda game. Also, there is no fucking way the bosses scale. I obliterated the 4th boss I did with a few hits. They were all about the same difficulty.
I've emulated LTTP, played Link's Awakening, and the oracle games and it's almost the same except on a smaller, tighter scale and an emphasis on dungeons. Why are you oldfags so edgy about us liking something that isn't fucking awful or woke (i.e Snoyfags)?
When I am king, after I get rid of all the blacks, my second order of business will be to round up people that make this stupid argument and force them to 100% LoZ.
I have that shit on NES and I like it a lot. Why are you guys such fags about BOTW/TOTK?
Elden Ring with Zelda characters/items. Tbh, I can't believe anyone is satisfied with Zelda if they've played ER. Zelda sets expectations it doesn't meet, while Elden Ring exceeds expectations you didn't have. For example:
>walk up to building
>SPIRIT TEMPLE text shows up
>it's just a shitty reused boss fight
>enter building on top of volcano
>think it's just a shitty PvP quest hub or something
>find hall behind invisible wall
>expect a shitty item or something
>leads to an entirely optional dungeon area that is more content than an entire region in TotK
This. I’d kill for the next LoZ to just straight rip off Elden Ring. So many times running around the lands between I’d find some hidden catacomb in a cliff face or random cave and have a fun spelunking adventure that ended in getting some new summon or weapon that would open up new options for my playstyle.
Meanwhile every new cave I find in LoZ usually follows some variation of
>go inside and smack a breakable wall
>fight the couple Horriblins inside and maybe a Like Like. Probably some Keese
>your reward is the same mushrooms and shit you find everywhere else. Also there’s a chest with an Opal in it
Whoopdee fuckin doo. At this point when I find a new cave I explore it for completion sake, not because I’m expecting to actually find something exciting.
Most of the caves are terrible. They put in WAY too many rock walls. Like holy fuck, what is even the point? When you break them they spawn weapons and rocks so it's not even about resource management. It literally just wastes your time for no fucking reason, and there are hundreds of them
>get quest that leads me to finding the demon statue under the lookout landing
>keep breaking through walls
>just keeps going and going and going and going
>run out of hammers right as I enter a room with dark blue breakable rocks I’ve never seen but I’m assuming take twice as long to break
>teleport out and go find something actually fun to do
Did I miss anything important? I was getting bored to tears grinding through
It just connects to the cave under hyrule castle. There's one of those generic skeleton bosses and I think useless armor or something in a chest
I found it from inside the castle, accidentally got there while looking for the prison and docks, wound up almost all the way to Lookout Landing. Couldn't believe how much cool shit was down there
I'm with anon #2, that shit was kino. You've got bomb flowers, bomb barrels (always fill up your shields with bomb barrels), zonai timed bombs, hammer horns on good weapons, and if all else fails, they literally drown you in rusty claymores and rocks. You could dig underneath other tunnels and ascend up into locked rooms, break into abandoned gatehouses, grab the goated soldier armor, and it gradually lets out into dank caves full of luminous rock, like-likes, a miniboss, and a few secret entrances to hyrule castle, which is ALSO drowning in good shit to pick up. How in the fuck can you play a zelda game and not like these caves, it's the most adventure shit there is.
>How in the fuck can you play a zelda game and not like these caves, it's the most adventure shit there is.
Because loot doesn't matter, and the enemies are the same regardless of where you go in the game. There's no incentive to explore. There's no incentive to fight monsters.
That is an issue this game has because of its poor open world structure, lots of enemies around but they don't offer you anything that you need unless they're tied to a side quest, like in the older games the enemies existed to block your path from progressing the game, in this game they are just there
I really don't know how to they solve this unless they start adding proper progression and structure to the game
I mean Elden Ring managed both so why can't Nintendo do it with botw?
If you think all the enemies are the same and rewards don't matter, go to faron and try to fight the lightning lizals with 2-handers. There are so many fun combat niches to exploit now that any weapon can carry any physical or elemental property.
>Hammers to break stone armor and taluses
>Spears and wing arrows to pin down backhopping lizals
>Water spout shield + lightning rod combo
>Fire rod + pine cone arrow combo
>Ice aoe on a sword charge attack into headshot crits
>Axe blades to chop off hinox foot armor
>Spinning laser beams on boomerangs
>Puffshrooms + eightfold blade sneakstrikes
>Just any kind of bomb jumping
That's just the normal weapon shit, not even touching most of the zonai devices (which are permanent progression rewards btw). First off, I have all the incentive I need to explore and fight just because experimenting with all this shit is fun. Secondly, I get all the extrinsic incentive I need when I sit down after dunking my entire arsenal on some fools and pick through my inventory, deciding which fuse addition goes on which weapon base. Also I'm only midgame and every weapon now has both a unique passive skill AND a stat buff perk, making this shit even more fun to build together. It's a better RPG than most RPGs.
Literally every single thing you listed is tedious with weapon durability. I would not waste a single minute creating a weapon that is just going to break after 1 battle.
That's why you need to get creative with application, to make sure you get the most out of your weapon in the limited usage you have. It puts more pressure on the player to be strategic with their application.
>make sure you get the most out of your weapon
...by avoiding combat.
I usually have to throw my shit just to free up space, because if I actually use all the free environmental and zonai kills, I'll never break anything. A good player has the exact opposite problem that you have.
I didn't have problems with durability, I just didn't fight. Throwing away weapons to just constantly remake the same one is the tedious part I'm talking about. What you are saying solves nothing.
You don't remake the same weapons, you get to try new ones. Before you say it, no they don't all do the same thing. Play the game.
>they don't all do the same thing
You only have five types of melee weapons: One-handed weapons, two-handed weapons, spears, staffs and boomerangs. That's not much variety.
Try one heart with knight's claymore, does a ton of damage and stuns anything. Or quick charge on a spear, that absolutely shreds boss health. Or put an opal on fire enemies in death mountain, or any of the shit I posted here
. The variety start good and gets ridiculous the further you go and the more base weapons, monster parts, and zonai devices you unlock.
The only variety is the damage you do. It's boring.
I think the people hating on this game just aren't creative or putting enough effort into it. There is so much content and payoff in this game if you get creative, it's just mid if you play it like a traditional open world rpg.
>There is so much content and payoff in this game if you get creative.
What payoff? Fighting the same enemies I fought on tutorial island? Finding the same treasure I found on tutorial island? Solving the same puzzles I found on tutorial island?
My 9 year old niece has no difficulty at all coming up with creative ways to engage with the game mechanics. There is no excuse. You have to actually be mentally retarded to not be able to come up with fun uses of ultra hand and fuse. Whenever I see these assholes actually complain that it's boring to fight enemies if you just walk up and slap them with a sword I lose a little more faith in humanity.
>Whenever I see these assholes actually complain that it's boring to fight enemies if you just walk up and slap them with a sword I lose a little more faith in humanity.
That's a valid criticism though. Even Twilight Princess had fun swordplay. Why is this game worse than TP, of all things?
>That's a valid criticism though. Even Twilight Princess had fun swordplay. Why is this game worse than TP, of all things?
Because you fucking retard, you aren't supposed to fight things with a sword. Sword fighting an entire enemy camp in this game is basically admitting you are too retarded to come up with a better way to kill them, and the game doesn't want to reward you for being stupid. Try attaching a bomb to a boomerang, or sticking some flame throwers on a wagon, isn't that more fun than walking up and smacking the attack button 5 times?
>Because you fucking retard, you aren't supposed to fight things with a sword.
nta but he's right
Why is swordplay so unfun? Why couldn't they just make it fun?
>Why is swordplay so unfun? Why couldn't they just make it fun?
Because this is a puzzle game, with the primary gameplay being the shrines where you are solving puzzles. They built the gameplay around those shrines and so it's natural that they would also treat the enemy encounters as a puzzle. Ultra Hand was created for the shrines, and because they created it they used it in other areas of the game as well. Doing otherwise would require them to effectively build two separate games, a puzzle game and an action game, which is just inefficient and also stupid because the two genres target different audiences. A lot of the people who buy Zelda to solve puzzles don't want to play Elden Ring.
Yea, swordplay is so unfun and they didn't want you to use it so much that they created like 10 combat tutorial shrines and like 20 survival combat shrines where they give you nothing but sticks. I swear to god you people are fucking retards.
These morons have never played Besiege or Gmod before, apparently
Gmod isn't a Zelda game.
I'm just saying any experience with physics-based games would make you understand why this game can be so much fun.
I usually go with swordplay if I'm not sneakstriking enemies and I don't even see how BotW's combat is boring. I could see it being a little easy at times but it's still extremely fun. It feels satisfying. Nothing in any other adventure game feels as good to me as making the earth shake from the sheer power of the Master Sword striking enemies.
Seriously. You can't just play every open world rpg like Elden Ring and expect it to be exactly like Elden Ring when it has completely different mechanics and plays totally differently. It's dumb.
It takes less time to kill them with the sword so why would you possibly waste time/resources building shit. The only thing you get for fighting enemies is resources to kill more things with your sword. So basically you're building things to kill enemies for resources you're never going to use. Brilliant.
>Whenever I see these assholes actually complain that it's boring to fight enemies if you just walk up and slap them with a sword I lose a little more faith in humanity
I’m not someone complaining about the act of combat — but if it is actually just as effective to just swing a sword why go through extra effort? Also, the issue of combat even being necessary is still there in this game. It remains true that in most instances, the cost of combat (time and resources) outweighs the benefit (materials). Combat is avoidable, and isn’t adequately rewarded. It’s fun when you’re still getting your bearings and trying stuff out, but you can’t just go fighting every enemy you see. For lower-level enemies it quickly becomes worthless to spend good ammunition on them because they offer nothing of value in return, even though it would be fun to fight them otherwise if there wasn’t such a steep cost involved.
>but if it is actually just as effective to just swing a sword why go through extra effort?
Because it's less fun?
It's just as effective to run and jump normally through Mario Odyssey but it's a lot more fun to fuck around with the hat jump to try to skip half the level, even if you end up failing 6 times and wasting more time doing that.
>Because it's less fun?
Having to make your own fun, for some, is less fun than an inherently fun experience.
>make your own fun
I did. I replayed Wind Waker, which had better gameplay.
>Because this is a puzzle game
Twilight Princess was puzzle game too and it had much better combat than TotK.
>Wind Waker, which had better gameplay.
Ah yes, I love sitting around in the most empty open world ever made going back and forth between islands, and then doing it all over again to get the triforce shards. Totally not tedious padding and timewasting.
>Ah yes, I love sitting around in the most empty open world ever made going back
3rd most empty, after BotW and TotK.
I can't speak for everyone but for me it's not about "not being able to come up with anything creative" it's that I don't want to do any of this building or fusing stuff. I play Zelda to larp as an elf hero in a tunic that kills things with a sword and shield and his many tools. And ones that don't fucking break or have to make myself constantly while pausing to sift through windows. It simply just isn't Zelda. If I wanted to make my own fun I'd play minecraft or literally Gmod in this case which has more depth and Customization in its building because that's actually the point.
It sounds like you're looking for an RPG
Try something like Xenoblade or Dragon Quest, it would be more of what you're looking for. BotW/TotK are puzzle games with a fun physics engine attached.
>you're looking for an RPG
I'm looking for a Zelda game, not Ubisoft-meets-Gmod.
"Zelda game" is not a genre. Zelda is an IP, and IPs often exist in many different genres. Your complaint would be like saying Tropical Freeze sucks because it's not a "real" Donkey Kong game like the arcade game.
If the new Super Mario Brothers game was a point-and-click adventure game I'd be pretty annoyed.
>"OoT is not a real Zelda game. This isn't an exploration-based 2D sidescrolling RPG, it's a shitty 3D Final Fantasy VII ripoff without the turn-based combat or incentive. Old Zelda is dead!"
Ship of Theseus.
Times change. You need to accept that Legend of Zelda has grown and you've stayed the same.
I think a gradual change instead of diving headfirst into this open world shit would have been better.
The weird ambiance and how deep it went made me play more cautiously than I ever did any other game. I was expecting some creepy shit to jump out down there and it never did. I honestly was less cautious playing Silent Hill 1/2 or exploring the Tomb of the Giants in DaS
You can not be serious. I went through that cave while exploring Hyrule Castle before I even got the glider or saw any other cave and it was already boring.
If you have yunobo sage he can break the walls but yeah way too many breakable walls un the caves
other anons havnt told you yet (ur all retarded btw) but the statue was literally 10sec from looking landing if you had gone a bit more to the right instead of just straight, way back at the beginning of the tunnel. retardo.
>that one part of the depths that has 7 huge piles of breakable rocks with nothing in them
The devs are fucking trolls and the massive rock blockades are so tedious.
What fucking bullshit i enjoy both ER and Totk, they are both different game entirely, ER is fucking over rated, not to say thats its not a fun game but all you do is run round and kill shit get gear and runes repeat until final boss is dead the whole world is just a backdrop
>a lot of fans and critics liking it doesn't mean it's good
>kotaku tier jorno's like it so it must be good
>Y-y-your just coping chud!
You're right, Angry Birds>Zelda.
Well yeah. A fuck ton of people love that game.
do you think GTAV is better than Vice City?
Don't know em.
Because all you play is nintendo games...curious...
Or maybe it's because I don't play gta games. That make you mad?
Wind Waker is the absolute best of the bunch
Nah man, LTTP is king.
ALttP is my favorite 2D game and WW was my favorite of the 3D games until BotW/TotK. The latest two remind me so much of Wind Waker.
Im sick of shrines, how hard could it be to just have legacy dungeons scattered across the world? Pocket dimension puzzles are tiring. Other than that everything is improved.
Genshin is better.
ABIB SAVE ME
I started playing this today and I am really mot enjoying it. Is there a point when it gets good?
Ya callate Lewis.
>not a good zelda game
>not a particularly good open world game either
Who is this game even for?
I havent played. The gmod gimmick actually looks fun to me. But I cannot believe they used the same map and copy pasted the core gameplay, animations, music. Seems lazier than even Ubisoft, unironically. I never expected Nintendo to do something like this. And it looks like didnt fix any of the major problems of the original game. Combat looks boring, it’s all spongy as all hell, awful itemization and durability system that is even worse than in Far Cry 2, boring story and abysmal voice acting. The good thing about BOTW was the exploration, but I have no interest in exploring the exact same gameworld again, grinding for stat upgrades again, grinding for materials again. To be honest I think I would have rather just wanted to see this as a 40 dollar DLC that added the runes to BOTW and let me play through all the new puzzle shrines back to back, selectable from a menu. I would have bought that for sure but honestly I dont think I’ll ever get this game.
>Seems lazier than even Ubisoft
It's A LOT lazier than Ubisoft, at least with them you get a reskinned open world shit fest again, here you just got the same game again
Yeah my biggest problem, felt like I was playing botw again just reskinned, the shrines are a lot better mechanically but they're still just shrines
I'm just glad I could emulate the game so I didn't have to shell out $70 on it
>paying to get a worse experience
The only thiefs here are Nintendo
>Fought Phantom Ganon in the Lockup
>Take half his health bar by throwing a last chance weapon that was at like 138 or something
>Still has a sliver left
>Dodge his lunge attack and kill him with a flurry rush
What a fun game.
It really is.
It's really funny that TotK addressed nearly every complaint the whiners had so they've decided to just lie about the game and pretend it doesn't have progression systems.
This game is so decompressed it's painful. Nintendo has been trying to rework the "Zelda Formula" for 10 years now, and their final solution has been to turn dungeons into tiresome mini-chores, and mobility itself into a tedious puzzle. It's genuinely upsetting to consider how good of a traditional Zelda game they could have made with the resources they spent on BotW and TotK.
10 million copies in 2 days.
Now that TotK is out tendies are admitting BotW was deeply flawed. When BotW3 comes out they'll admit TotK was deeply flawed. Such is the life of a brainless consumer.
Ah yes, and what open world AAA rpg other than this or Elden Ring do you find to be high gaming?
IS THE MASTER CYCLE IN THE GAME
it's not a bad game. but to me it feels closer to an ubisoft collect-a-thon than a proper zelda game with structure and item progression/dungeons.
The story is stupid, what was the purpose of the divine beasts, they were supposed to stop
Ganondorf and yet he still survives and the beasts just disappear? Can’t they shoot a god damn laser at him? Why does he always take over
Do they ever mention Ganondorf and Ganon being the same entity?
Zelda being an irredeemable annoying bitch with an abysmal voice actor doesnt help, why do hylians give a shit about her? She just fucked up the kingdom again 5 minutes after link fixing it
Switching the language to French makes this an entirely different game. French VAs for this game are incredible, especially Zelda and the female characters.
this game sure is good when i don't have Hispanics whining in my ear about it
I believe you’re supposed to utilize fuse in this game the weapon a tend to last longer when you use fuse otherwise they break really quickly but it seems like most of that amounts to sticking rocks and things on weapons I attached bat wings to a sword and it looked cool and lasted longer but still not long enough for my liking.
Fighting enemies honestly feels pretty pointless in this game.
Money is not that
Necessary so what’s the point of farming enemies? You avoid them because you are too weak early in the game and then after in you are probably too strong so you avoid them likewise because it’s a waste of time
Get a little farther, you're going to start seeing fuse materials that are way cooler than rocks. Lizal horns make your swords look like katanas, and boko horns go perfectly on pretty much any spear. Also, Zonai shit looks incredible on anything, and it's designed to gain bonus power when you pair two zonai pieces together. That goes for zonai bow + zonai arrows, or flamethrow on zonai shield, or soldier horn on zonai sword, you name it. You actually start looking cool if you fuse the correct shit together. That would be the point of farming enemies, aside from it just being fun.
Best weapon combinations that actually look good? I was hoping that there might be some unique combinations for just merging two shields or weapons together but I'm finding it really only looks good with certain materials.
Who cares about the aesthetics of paper mache weapons?
Honestly I think I enjoyed the remake of Links awakening to be honest I am not sure why that is exactly it makes me kind of sad I want to love the new Zelda I really do
I feel like a lot of haters of these games try to act like it's like the new Paper Mario games where they give you no reward for combat so you just avoid it, but it's strange because the game gives you a lot of rewards for combat. You can use monster parts to upgrade your armor, make money, or make elixers. You almost always get arrows, more weapons than you used and some kind of food ingredient. A lot of the time there's money. It's not like you get some huge rush from beating up 4 random bokoblins, but you do feel rewarded, you don't feel like you wasted your time.
>You can use monster parts to upgrade your armor, make money, or make elixers. You almost always get arrows, more weapons than you used and some kind of food ingredient.
With the exception of upgrading armor the rewards you get are rarely worth what you expend in combat.
I tend to find environmental methods of taking a couple of enemies down then using their weapons to mop up the rest. Minimal wastage of existing weaponry.
But why kill them at all? Monster parts? Rupees? Neither of those mean much in this game.
You know monster parts are used for making weapons, elixirs, armor, etc. right?
The only monster parts that are worth using for armor are from minibosses. As for weapons and elixers, those are readily available without monster parts.
And you're always starved for rupees if you want all the fashion, or to try out all the armor set bonuses, or to unlock all the recipes, or even just to get a set of lightning resist shit so that you can fight a lightning gleeok because doing that is... fun. I think the dude just doesn't want to play TotK and he'll realize that eventually.
I can’t help you further there. Your original argument was that you don’t want to expend resources fighting, not that you didn’t want to fight to begin with. I, personally, have a lot of fun finding different ways of approaching different aspects of the game. I don’t need the promise of a shiny reward for doing everything. The reward comes from setting myself a task and accomplishing it; the game is designed around this.
>The reward comes from setting myself a task and accomplishing it; the game is designed around this.
The game is incredibly easy, though, in part because the open-world design necessitates that all areas be accessible to a low-level player.
This argument is immensely tired now. It’s not SO easy that a naked/3-heart run or some other self imposed restriction is a cakewalk. If you don’t like the base game then that’s fine, no amount of creativity is going to save it and I’m sorry you wasted your time/money. Not everyone can be pleased all the time.
I don’t understand why you’re asking this? I specifically stated I like assaulting enemy camps as I come across them. I don’t deliberately seek them out after every blood moon. Unless there’s a spiked ball in the camp, that’s very useful.
What accomplishment is there in killing moblins for the 1000th time?
Or they just didn't play the game and circlejerk the same shit from when BOTW came out.
If they would just fix the far cry 2 tier seapon durability system then a lot of these issues wouldnt be a thing. The weapons should last about 5-20x times longer.
>You can use monster parts to upgrade your armor
The only armor worth upgrading requires specific mini-boss parts, still making every enemy camp useless. Also, there is no reason to upgrade more than one set of armor.
You make more money just walking around breaking ore deposits
Why would you ever make elixirs when the game gives you hundreds of bananas that give you the only worthwhile buff
I tried them all. The only thing worth using is an ice weapon. Still a complete waste of time because it's easier and faster just to run away.
>Also, there is no reason to upgrade more than one set of armor.
This is the single most autistic thing I have ever seen someone say and simultaneously shows that you have never played either this game OR BotW, because the armor sets have unique abilities separate from their stats.
The only useful stat is attack up so you break less weapons. Every other stat and set effect is useless by the time you can upgrade the whole set to rank 2.
Have these people ever crafted weapons in an RPG?
Why craft weapons when there's no point to fight enemies, and enemies are extremely weak regardless?
>when there's no point to fight enemies
You keep saying this meme but it's still not true
He's not wrong at all
Once you get good weapons, fighting enemies in a waste of time
You can run past everything to preserve good weapons for the rare occasion you're forced to fight something
If you fight everything you're just breaking and breaking and breaking weapons over and over in a pointless cycle to get more weapons to break because encounters don't give you anything worthwhile
>He's not wrong at all
Say how so instead of just saying "no"
I went over why he's right here
This argument was true in Breath of the Wild, it's not true in Tears of the Kingdom.
to spend on what?
good gameplay but the story is a mess.
also for a direct sequel this feels so disconnected from botw.
thankfully im not a zelda lore fag so i don't care too much about this.
Can someone tell me if the fifth ring ruin is accessed through a quest or not? That's all I want to know. This thing is driving me nuts.
I think it's in the Plateau.
late game quest
You need to beat all 4 Divine Beasts and Phantom Ganon at the Castle afterwards, then talk to Paya in Kakariko and you will have permission to enter it.
>zelda is dead
>botw sold 30 million copies
>totk sold 10 million copies in 3 days
i'd say nintendo doesn't think so, to them zelda is more alive than it has ever been.
>>the underground hyrule is empty
you are a massive retard OP, play the game, then maybe (maybe) you may have opinions here.
still shitty jazz, otherwise just quiet
still shitty baby's blanket shrines
still shitty controls and menuing
still shitty enemies and combat
but sure yeah you can make a dragon spear and spam a retarded attack animation OR make bridges/fly around an empty map, basically a worse death stranding
>it's now three times the hassle it was in BotW because I have to navigate menus to fuse the replacement
>6 years in and I still can’t plan accordingly
Should have stopped playing BotW 2 hours in then shouldn’t you?
>he doesn't know about the depths
>dragon materials are on a 10 minute cooldown
>need a bunch of them to upgrade armors, so it's at minimum like 2 hours a dragon of mats (or more)
glad I have a macro controller with a "dupe at the push of a button" option