Did the bonfire placement became easier in Fromsoft games as the time went by?
I feels like it it much harsher to die in DS1 because you actually have to kill enemies again and re-do the way to the boss, unlike DS3 for example.
Do you think it a good mechanic?
Should every boss have a bonfire at their doorstep?
>Did the bonfire placement became easier in Fromsoft games as the time went by?
Yes, but the enemies got harder to compensate.
No shit they got easier: From casualized their gamed for mass appeal so homosexuals like and
can feel a sense of pride and accomplishment from bashing their head against le epic boss fights until they brute force a way through.
le epic hardcore Gankerner who thinks he's special for wanting a game to be tedious
kys
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU HAVE TO SPRINT FOR 5 MINUTES TO REACH THE BOSS OTHERWISE YOU ARE A CASUL
mental illness
that's the problem in a post bloodborne world, the areas are too submissive and sprintable. if you tried that shit in ds1 or 2 you'd get buttfricked, yet you can skip nearly every enemy in ds3 and er because of poor level design. the hard part used to be getting to the fog with enough estus to kill the boss, now that's been thrown out and they call about is the shitty bosses, which are just as bad as ever btw.
tell me of 1 area in dark souls 1 where you couldn't just sprint past every enemy to the boss fog
you always could, it was just tedious and miserable. a complete waste of time that I'm glad they removed in the next newer games out of respect for the player's time
>you always could
The solution was making it so that running past enemies required more skill, a certain build, or etc. Not removing it.
Also I'd like to add that DS2 did a decent job at fixing this but everyone complained about ganks because you're moronic
I also like that even if you wiggle your way around enemies to get through the fogwall, they'll still come for you after beating a boss and the fogwall disappears. It was pretty funny beating pursuer, checking my inventory, and getting swamped by the half a dozen or so enemies I ran past. You cant let your guard down just from beating the boss because you might not be safe.
>it was just tedious and miserable
it was a risky move that paid off in saving time and possibly estus charges for the boss. it adds a layer of decision making to the boss encounter itself. I'll ask you: name me 1 boss in dark souls 1 that is both hard and has a long annoying fog gate run.
I can't name a single hard boss in Ds1
>name me 1 boss in dark souls 1 that is both hard and has a long annoying fog gate run
easy, 4 kings (if you're underleveled), bed of chaos
>Just jump from the ladder to the right
>Statues usually get oneshotted, just don't forget to wear the ring for lava protection
O&S
Bed of Chaos
>O&S
No him, but couldn't you just run directly to the fog game by bypassing enemies?
I had issues with O&S, but the boss run wasn't really one of them.
Assuming no glitches and you open the shortcut, it's 2 silver knights, a silver knight archer and 2 of the giant knights out front. You can run past most of that, 1 silver knight at the beginning typically gets in the way
Nito
>if you tried that shit in ds1 or 2 you'd get buttfricked
Lmao
Did you just type submissive and sprintable? What the frick is wrong with you?
yes the game was better when it was balanced like that. the run for tower knight fog gate might as well be phase 1 of the boss. encounters like those where the run was tedious and the boss was fairly easy are much better than bonfire right before fog gate and a meth head boss doing non stop combos.
>encounters like those where the run was tedious and the boss was fairly easy are much better than bonfire right before fog gate and a meth head boss doing non stop combos
I disagree, fighting meth head bosses is more fun than walking
i like em too but not in a game like dark souls which is supposed to be like a more modern take on dungeon crawlers. both can coexist. boss rushing for sekiro and gauntlets for souls games.
You play games that allow you to easily sprint past almost all "danger", that's what makes you a casual.
The solution is to face actual challenges, not to sprint for longer.
Nobody fricking liked the four kings, a bonfire right outside the fog wall wouldn't have improved it by much.
On the flipside, a bonfire right outide Taurus or O&D (or countless others) would have significantly degraded those fights by encouraging carelessly grinding out attempts.
>The solution is to face actual challenges
So doing something in real life with actual value?
That's fine too, nobody is going to call you a casul for lifting 200kg instead of doing no-hit runs.
>You play games that allow you to easily sprint past almost all "danger", that's what makes you a casual.
>The solution is to face actual challenges, not to sprint for longer.
stop pretending holding down the sprint button avoiding mobs to the fog gate requires any skill lmao
Glad you losers are getting phased out for the casual audience now lmao
Cope and seethe over Souls games being more popular than ever
I'm a hardcore gamer. when i was 15-20 years old I used to want to play the hardest games.
Now that these games have given me insane amount of anxiety attacks and panic attacks, I want easier games.
It's not worth it if your game is going to give you a mental illness.
yeah it's sad, these games became spammy action games instead of patient and thoughtful action RPGs. I wish from would go back to that
lmao this homie old
I'm 27
ah yes dark souls with such difficult and complex bosses like gaping dragon?
>Did the bonfire placement became easier in Fromsoft games as the time went by?
Leagues easier. Just imagine how mimicbabs would handle the walk back to 4kings. Hell, even the walk to Taurus is too far for them.
It absolutely did and it's unironically a good thing. Runbacks don't add any meaningful challenge, just pointless tedium. Post-BB games knowing which FromSoft-isms to keep and which to ditch is a blessing.
every game got shortcuts before the boss of the zone
DeS boonfire placements isn't that much different than DaS3
Almost every single boss in DS1 outside of like the Sanctuary Guardian has multiple enemy encounters, sometimes half an area's worth, between the nearest bonfire and them. Frick are you on about?
Nobody fricking liked respawning at the Firelink Shrine if you failed the 4K DPS check you poser. I'd rather they add proper challenge to their area and boss design, not supplement it with tedious repetition.
>Almost every
Stray Demon
Pinwheel
Capra Demon
Taurus Demon.
That's it.
This, meanwhile
DS2
>smelter demon
>chariot
>skeleton lords
>prowling magus
>ruin sentinels
>baneful queen
>demon of song
>dragonriders
DS3
>vordt
>oceiros
>crystal sage
>deacons
>old demon king
>yhorm
Not counting dlc but at least these had similar boss runs as DaS as it's hardest. The games arent any different in this sense, if anything it's DS2 that might prevent just running to the boss at some point
I know you excluded DLC, but the blue Smelter Demon in DaS2 might be the worst runback in the whole franchise, honestly.
you can just take the shortcut, you're good enough to take the shortcut right?
Frigid Outskirts is much worse
>bed of chaos didn't have a hellish boss run
even the shortcut, which most people going into the game unspoiled wouldn't know of, has a titanite demon and a bunch of trash in your path
meanwhile the other route has you run through the entire god damn level
four kings makes you run through a whole level
>Almost every single boss in DS1 outside of like the Sanctuary Guardian has multiple enemy encounters
You are wrong. You may aggro some enemies, but you can easily run back to a fog wall without engaging them if you make a run for it. I got running back to Gravelord Nito down to a science because how badly he fricked me up the first time I played DaS1.
>you actually have to kill enemies again and re-do the way to the boss
lol wat, you just run past everything because of short leashes.
It was DS2 that made enemies chase you whole areas and everyone complained.
Gee I don’t know elden ring only has about a thousand obnoxious ass map markers for each redundant bonfire every 5 meters so players “never get lost”
Fromsoft doesn’t design games for their hardcore fans anymore
You don't have to kill shit, the meta is just running past everything into the fog anyway so just putting the bonfire in front of bosses is the best way.
That's one thing I liked about DS 1&2 that they got rid of in elden ring. You progressed 99% of the time by killing everything in your path. In DS3 and ER the smarter move is just to run around the enemies
>DS1
>find bonfire/shortcut
>"holy shit finally!"
that doesn't happen in ER
they're all way to close to each other
and rushing past enemies is way easier now that you have a horse
>and rushing past enemies is way easier now that you have a horse
unless it's those Black personing trolls
>bonfire
>another bonfire 5 seconds later
bravo miyahacki
I will never understand the need to do that shit so often.
I finished ds1 and now playing ds3 on irithyl I have to say. Ds3 is great and all its definitely fun but there is something missing in it compared to ds1 I can't point it out.
>release dark souls, a masterpiece
>memorable, connected world that players could draw a map of years after playing easily
>abandon this entirely and make games where you warp between bonfires and they're not nearly as well thought out or connected with shortcuts
It's just a straight line. There's no level design. You just walk forward until the game says, "oh shit that was the end of the road, here's let's warp back here so you can continue." That sucks as well as the fact that you're just going through the motions again. It doesn't feel fresh. It's Dark Souls 1 areas again with Bloodborne assets.
I can't express how mad I was when I found that Dragon secret area only to learn that it also was just a line and an especially linear, scripted one as well.
It's because dark souls had really good vertical level design with well thought out shortcuts that made it feel like a 3D metriodvania. Dark souls 3 level design by comparison is linear as frick and having the ability to warp from the beginning loses the feeling of going through a adventure in a connected world the first game had.
having to go through half of lost Izalith because you died due to Dark Souls having the worst jumping mechanics in any modern day game was not a "fun adventure"
it was tedious and half the reason BoC is the worst souls boss ever
>Dark Souls having the worst jumping mechanics in any modern day game
do you have cerebral palsy
name a modern game with worse jump mechanics
Demon's Souls 🙂
fair enough
>Skips 2
Pleb moment.
Yes there's lots of parts in DS3 where the bonfires are 3 minutes apart and you might kill like 2 guys in between.
Yep, we used to have variety and some cohesion between bosses and the levels they were placed in
>easy bosses like Pin-Wheel that had a very annoying bonfire runs
>Mid difficulty bosses Iron Golem with somewhat trivial areas bonfire runs
>high difficulty bosses like ones in AotA with where you can retry almost immediately
but that was apparently too difficult so now we're stuck with the AotA formula for literally all of Elden Ring and every Souls-like they make afterwards.
>>high difficulty bosses like ones in AotA with where you can retry almost immediately
The sanctuary guardian was the only boss in AotA that had a bonfire nearby
>but that was apparently too difficult
no one is saying bonfire runs are difficult. They're just tedious and waste the player's time
DS1 felt more satisfying to beat bosses
DS3 felt like there were more trolling tricks to make you automatically lose
>DS3
>boss has a vulnerability
>ops we have a move that's super-fast and can instantly hit you if you hit me at this time
>ops you hit us when we were vulnerable, guess I have to do an instant AOE
These are not well thought out. they're literally a form of damage control and trolling the player.
instead of having a formula you have to follow like a puzzle, its just random chance they won't use an attack that will just make you automatically lose.
This. Over time bosses just straight punished you for fighting them properly.
>2022
>still filtered by DaS3 bosses
i beat ds3
And you are still a filtered b***h who couldn't fully adapt to a moveset and had to beuteforce through T&E
>I bruteforced until I got a favourable outcome through chance
>Now that Elden Ring is increasingly varyIng that boss moveset and with it lowering my chances to bruteforce through bosses I'm blaming the game and crying how DS1 and DS2 were better for being literal Telltale moviegames tier of challenge
FTFY
>ops we have a move that's super-fast and can instantly hit you if you hit me at this time
I only really felt this with Lorian and only because I was using the Greatsword. Got sick of him UNGA swiping behind him when I perfectly dodged the last hit of a combo and tried to punish, but the very first time I switched to a slightly faster weapon (BKS) I beat him. It's nothing like Elden Ring where many bosses only give 1 swing openings MAX and constantly troll you with optional combo extensions
If you think DS3 bosses are fricked you should see Elden Ring.
this hasn't been an important thing to do for fromsoftware since ds2, even the shortcuts are just "there" and hardly ever used
Yep. Dark Souls 1 was casualcore but that will still too much for their braindrad audience so they kept dumbing the games down as time progressed.
> I feels like it it much harsher to die in DS1 because you actually have to kill enemies again
I can't think of a single place in ds1 you can't just run through. Mainly because you turn invincible while interacting with doors, levers etc.
Ds2 was the only game to do this right, makes it much harder to rush through areas. They should've kept the feature
Yes. I would take a guess that they wanted to focus on bosses more, so putting bonfires closer to them would let them focus on that (except dark souls 2 because it admittedly does have weaker bosses outside of the DLC mostly).
It was never hard to get your way back to a boss and you can avoid all enemies along the way unless there's a caster right next to a ladder going up or something.
>Boss run in des/ds1/ds2
5 minutes of tough but fair enemy gauntlet
>Boss run in ds3
5 minutes of running around and waiting for elevators
>5 minutes of tough but fair enemy gauntlet
>tough
Didn't Sekiro had this, to an extend?
I remember needing to go through enemies quite a bit to get to bosses.
Different approach to development.
Bonfires needed to be ubiquitous and you needed to be able to warp to all of them when levels, enemies, items and bosses could be more arbitrarily reshuffled.
>Did the bonfire placement became easier in Fromsoft games as the time went by?
absolutely
>Did the bonfire placement became easier in Fromsoft games as the time went by?
Overall yes but it fluctuated, i would say it goes
>DeS>BB>DaS1>>>(power gap)>>DaS2>DaS3>Sekiro>ER
In terms of least to most forgiving bonfire placement
>I feels like it it much harsher to die in DS1 because you actually have to kill enemies again and re-do the way to the boss, unlike DS3 for example.
That however is a lie perpetuated as 99% of the people just ran from everything once they did a place and found where to go, the only times not doing that is when they didnt know where to go and the previous enemies caught up to the player.
>Do you think it a good mechanic?
What do you mean by this? Personallly i think the previous way of having less checkpoints was far more fun, however...
>Should every boss have a bonfire at their doorstep?
Not every boss should have doorstep bonfires, but some should, superbosses like Malenia being an example.
Is there a mod to delete roughly half the sites of grace? There are just soo fricking manyyy
no one is forcing you to touch them
pleb take
>Did the... became
Frick's sake.
>One mistyped letter? Argument DESTROYED
>mistyped
It's ESL
To be fair it's a common and annoying ESLism on Ganker. Kinda like "why [X] is/are [Y]?".
>kill enemies again and re-do the way to the boss
people do that? just rush past everything, my guy. honestly, DS3 did bonfire placement the best in the series, but the level design still gets shit on unfairly because it's somewhat linear from level to level.
DeS did it the best, one checkpoint at the start and one after the boss
BB had the same idea but cheated in some areas
The rest aren't as good with 2, 3 and elden ring only making it worse and worse
Yes and that's a good thing. Dark Souls is a boss rush game and From knows that.
>Dark Souls
>Bonfire is a walk and a half away from the other
>Dark Souls II
>Bonfire half-way across the world
>Dark Souls III
>Bonfire next to a bonfire
i feel like you kinda just answered your own question.
why do people meme the two bonfires right next to each other in 3 so much but ignore the exact same thing in BB (living failures and maria)
Because bloodborne is a fricking meme
it was moronic because in BB a lamp always spawned after defeating a boss, and you have two bosses next to each other
in DS3 the grand archives bonfire doesn't belong to a boss, but you have a boss bonfire a couple of steps before
They did and it made the game worse.
I only played DS1, but I did feel that the bonfires were too apart from bosses. It's also a lot more difficult to learn how to fight a boss as you have big intervals between every fight.
I remember having a bad time against the Capra Demon as you had a ~5 minutes travel time to the boss.
>Should every boss have a bonfire at their doorstep?
Only if the boss is much harder than the games that involve a lengthy runback.
How my ideal FromSoftware game would work:
>one bonfire at the start of the level
>the level itself is complex and interwoven, with lots of secrets and different paths for you to take
>but no other bonfires, maybe some internal shortcuts
>at the end of it you activate a shortcut that places the first bonfire and the area boss withing a 30 seconds walking distance
>area boss drops a new bonfire for the next level
>repeat
That's Demon's Souls aside from the "30 seconds" part
thats pretty much the surge and it makes the game a huge maze with shortcuts inside of shortcuts
but now all bonfires are within a 30 second distance
>playing Dark Souls for the first time
>reach the bottom of blighttown
>thanks to the messages on the ground, find the great hollow tree
>reach Ash Lake
>see bonfire
>refuse to sit on it because I dread the idea of doing that tree again, going up
And that's why having bonfire warping since the start of the game is a mistake
Bonfires became too forgiving in later titles or sometimes outright nonsensical. Bloodborne and DS1's placements are fine outside of a few obvious outliers, DS3's get's ridiculous and Elden Ring's is just borderline insulting. You can travel 500 feet in open space and stumble upon another bonfire and then below that is a catacomb that has a bonfire in the beginning.
homie if I wanted to walk I would go outside
I think after DS1 they just started working on separate areas at the same time for efficiency and never quite knew how to connect them in a cohesive manner, so you end up with some bonfires too close too each other.
yeah but the bosses were easier in the earlier games too
I liked the old school approach in Demons, DS1 and 2. Its a more old-school approach to gaming, despite being on a console where auto-saving is the norm. It is maintaining the tradition of 'restarting the level' if you frick up, yet also being part of an action rpg. This is no different than mario bros, or any PS1/PS2 game. The save itself is part of the gameplay. It raises the stakes. I actually prefer when you have to FIND the save point