I'm fairly certain that the only reason
Ally >Human >Dwarf >Night Elf >High Elf
Horde >Orc >Troll >Tauren >Goblin
Wasn't in cvanilla wow was because >horde wouldn't have had an Eastern Kingdoms city (Undercity) >Alliance would have 2 types of elves, which may throw people off.
But for the life of me I can't comprehend why >no ogres for horde >knockoff high elves for alliance
still exist in live.
>NO layers or at the very least have it be conditional based on the number of people in the zone
I deliberately chose a lower populated server to be more blizzlike and avoid streamer gays but it was still plagued by layer abuse despite layers being unnecessary in most zones >immediately patch out and ban zoomcleaving homosexuals and exploiters instead of just slapping them on the wrist at most or letting them get away with their ruination
beyond that I can't really remember what issues I had with it. It was a blast for a few weeks until the state of modern zoomie gamers ruined it
This
All the problems have existed for entire WoW existence, but players managed to magnify them larger than ever before >game designed for a few thousand concurrent players >players all pile onto a few servers in fear of missing out >wtf blizz, why are the servers such trash?
There is no fix, there isn't anything wrong with the game. The issue lies in the player base.
Were you really surprised when every single zoomer had the opportunity to play "the greatest mmo of all time at its peak" and they powerleveled through THE WHOLE GAME (In vanilla WoW 1-60 was the game, the obsession with end game content was a biproduct of expansions) just so they could group up with 39 other zoomers (who also picked mage because it was the highest dps class because the only dopamine they can squeeze out of their brains is by having the biggest number in the DPS meter) to clear content which was really just stat checks rather than actually having to learn mechanics?
It's the reason why PvP realms were so popular and why they all rolled Horde. Playing games isn't about having fun, it's about being other players which can be hard if you're a shitter, thankfully with MMOs you can literally just buy power thanks to the Chinese.
>classes are blatantly imbalanced >leveling can be breezed through but is somehow supposed to be the main game >content was just stat checks and didnt have real mechanics
sounds like the game is the issue
>leveling can be breezed through
According to who LOL? Compared to retail leveling could not be "breezed through" I sware you retail gays are delusional if you think this is true.
ask me how I know you never played classic, go ahead. Mages were charging at least 30-50g at the start of relaunch (roughly two wow tokens for retail gays) for a single ZF run on most servers when relaunched dropped. Take into account that if you were unlucky and needed gear for certain pre-bis items that didnt drop for you you would have to pay over and over again until you got the item you wanted to drop (then in most cases bid against people in the dungeon/raid for it). The only people that could afford it at the start of the game were either no lifing or buying gold. You make it seem like the majority of players just strolled through leveling when in actuality gearing up your character in UBRS, scholo and strat were unironically the most time consuming parts of the game.
honestly frick you I'm wasted and your post is gay
I really miss playing MMOs before the playerbase became so obsessed with endgame. Especially PvP ones where there's just endless b***hing about "reee he's just stronger than me because he's been playing longer" even though it takes like 1 fricking week to reach endgame in the current MMO format. And always going on about "le content" even though they try their damnedest to skip as much as they can getting to endgame.
Also just running around the world with your friends doing quests, you were all somewhere in the whirlpool of mid-game and absolutely content.
Yep. Just remove raidlogging and replace raids with world bosses on mandatory pvp realms with forced faction queue. Squish level to 10 similar to what they did before Sneedlands, make leveling to 60 take 3 months again. Disable flying. >WAH THIS WILL ONLY LEAD TO GUILD DRAMAS AND BOSS FIXING!
Not my problem, still 100 times better than the dead, empty zones and 0 social interactions of modern WoW. Stop playing MMOs if you don't want to socialize and make friends/enemies.
>Make a game >add a priest class >give the priest 3 specializations >2 of them are traps and if you spec in them you won't be invited into groups.
Many such cases!
>create a game with 40 man raids >Many of these classes have debuffs and damage over time effects which work as debuffs >the limit of debuffs on a boss was 8 for over a year. >if a boss already has 8 debuffs and you apply a new one, the debuff just gets pushed off and disappears. >Did they remove the debuff limit in 2005? NO! >They just doubled it to 16. >there isn't anything wrong with the game.
I'm so sick of frickers who never played vanilla to claim that the game was at it's best then, or even worse, this moron take that "there isn't anything wrong with the game".
Of course there was shit wrong with the game. There was a LOT of shit wrong with the game, that's why they kept patching it.
I'm convinced that these revisionist morons who only talk about the good things of vanilla without mentioning the bad things, are the same idiots who want to go back to americas founding father days for similar asinine reasons.
It's a little inaccurate since Chris was behind WoD and Legion, also the poopsocking really was in the game from Vanilla. TBC made the game more casual infact, original vanilla raiders were such no lifers some guilds unironically raided all day in work days. It was a very unhealthy environment, casual raiding in vanilla today is born from player ability and min maxing. Years ago even clearing MC took hours, some times days.
>But not one where you're required to log in for 4 months ahead to finally clear a raid.
Molten core was beaten 154 days after release during vanilla. So yeah, it didn't take 4 months, it took 5. >New game easier than old game.
You know why vanilla was difficult? A: Because nobody fully knew how half the shit worked,
B: because you were undergeared for it.
Do you think people wiped on Ragnaros because he's just SO hard with such amazing abilities as: >knocks back >becomes immune >summons adds.
Wow. what a fight. Really puts the WAR in warcraft. The actual reason people wiped on Ragnaros is that bosses dropped 2 items on average, (ragnaros himself dropped 4, how generous) Meaning: The tank took harder hits, the DPS players had less fire resistance, meaning the healers had to heal more, meaning the healers ran out of mana sooners, meaning the raid wiped. There was barely any difficulty at all, it was just attrition.
And the rotations were not much more difficult either. Mage at ragnaros: >frostbolt >frostbolt >frostbolt >oom >wand >frostbolt
A rogue did little more than spam sinister strike and press eviscerate. You had time to chat as long as you didn't let your energy cap.
A lot of mechanically interesting fights were added with nax, but a big hurdle there was simply that many guilds were hardblocked by needing more tanks than any raid before required. And with BC PTR many didn't bother.
Wow vanilla was a joke, difficulty wise. It all came from the fact that the game just refused to give you items.
>Wow vanilla was a joke, difficulty wise. It all came from the fact that the game just refused to give you items.
WoW vanilla was difficult because most people had absolute shitbox computers, barely any mechanics were explained and people were literally using 56k modems. Half the people in the game had something like 6fps during the Ragnaros fight. The "casual" nature of WoW meant casual people were using shit like late 90s laptops to play it. It was technically a 40 man raid but in reality only 10-15 people were performing at maximum capability for most guilds. Only the poop sock guilds on each server would curate for good hardware and internet connections.
I mean sure, that was part of the reason why a lot of the more casual guilds took ages to kill bosses, But like I said Ragnaros first kill took 5 months, So clearly it was not just scrubs on laptops pulling their guild down,
The entire game was designed to be SLOW.
Jeff "Tigole" Kaplan is responsible for WoW's hyper focus on instanced content and poopsocking raiding with "GO GO GO" mentality. As to why anyone champions him is beyond me. Anyone over the age of 30 knows that him and his cronies ruined WoW's design. It wasn't until until about mid-way through WoTLK that the corpse of the game started to stink, but they decorated it with nice smelling roses (Nostalgia tripping people with Arthas) to cover up how stagnant and dead the world felt.
>reeee sharding and layering
You fricking moron. Classic servers are MASSIVELY bigger than vanilla servers ever were. They HAD to add measures to actually keep the vanilla feel of a zone intact. To keep them even remotely playable. And even with sharding and layering the zones were just fricking FULL.
So for blizzard to not ad layering, they would have to cap the servers like vanilla was, at roughly 1.5k to 3k unique players a month. Now Classic servers are many times as big. And still, just a month after the initial classic release, many servers were fricking dead.
Do you really think, they should have added 20 times more servers that now would all be dead? Just to avoid layering?
Just to avoid something seeing enemies despawn when you get a party invite? Who the frick cares. How's that the most important feature about vanilla for people? To be LESS likely to be able to play with friends?
Sharding and layering is unironically good, and the best thing that could happen to WoW, is if Blizz fricking removed the idea of "realms" altogether and just let people move freely and play with anyone.
But then they couldn't take HORRENDOUS amounts of money to copy your character from one server to another.
My bro. If they had caps, you would have never gotten to play on the server you wanted to play on.
You also would have now be playing on an extremely dead server.
Look at how dead most of the servers are NOW, WITH layering. Now multiply that by 20. How is that preferable to layering?
>You fricking moron. Classic servers are MASSIVELY bigger than vanilla servers ever were.
And Nostalrius servers were bigger then Classic servers were. Nobody cared. Just increase the spawn rate, or open new servers.
Layering is just some schizo cope.
>We want classic to be like vanilla was no changes! >Ok but change the max capacity and increase spawn rates so it's not ass to play
???
The whole POINT was to be as close to vanilla as possible, and layered zones to stay at similar capacities to vanilla is WAY closer to the vanilla experience than just letting everyone in the same area and upping respawn rates until it becomes playable.
>The whole POINT was to be as close to vanilla as possible
Yeah and layering isn't close to Vanilla at all >closer to the vanilla experience than just letting everyone in the same area and upping respawn rates until it becomes playable.
Sounds like your idea of the vanilla experience is an empty world. Likely you started playing in wrath. The number of players have nothing to do with the "vanilla experience". The more players the game has, the better it is.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Layering keeps a vanilla experience intact, but also allows servers to have a decent population. >empty world
are you high? Layers can still be full and should be. I'm not saying "make a private instance for every player lol". But once a zone has hit capacity, layer that sucker.
Of course layering is more vanilla than overpopulating servers. How is that even a question? >You are a developer >Your task is to re-create an experience, true to the one people had on servers that had AT THE UPPER MAX 3k unique logins per month, but you need to make it available for way more people, many of which are predicted to stop playing after a while. >You can:
A: Create a system on which tens of thousands of people are allowed to play on the same server, but implement a "mini server" system for each zone, that keeps the maximum number of people in each zone, to a number that would be realistic to an actual vanilla server. >Or you can:
B: Let tens of thousands of players play on one server, but instead of capping the zones, you increase spawn rates to dynamically keep up with demand, altering the vanilla experience, but making it playable for way more people than ever played simultaneously in a zone during vanilla >Or you can:
C: Just create hundreds of servers to deal with the demand, and eventually merge them when they die.
The only acceptable answer to keep the best vanilla feeling in the game is A.
If it was not for the fact that true vanilla experience was demanded, B would be acceptable.
C is always moronic.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Layering keeps a vanilla experience intact, but also allows servers to have a decent population.
Except it doesn't. The "Vanilla experience" didn't include having your character magically teleport into a different version of the server mid combat. It didn't have people disappear in front of you while they abuse the system to farm all the mats in the area. In fact, NO DECENT GAME has anything like this moronation in it. >But once a zone has hit capacity, layer that sucker.
There is no capacity.
btw I choose B and C because I'm not a mouthbreathing moron.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>didn't include having your character magically teleport into a different version of the server mid combat.
Should only happen if you accept party invites mid fight. If you phase during combat, a bug has happened. Just how during actual classic sometimes your mob would just lose aggro and reset. Or how sometimes your character would lie flat on the ground with no animations even when running around. (we called it surfing in our guild!).
The fact that dudes abuse phasing for farming sucks. Should have been better implemented.
But your argument that it would be truer to vanilla if they fiddled with the fricking spawnrates is just disingenuous. You are literally saying "It would be more like vanilla if they made it less like vanilla".
I even agree that the game would be better with higher spawn rates, more EXP and more item drops. I just disagree that it would be closer to vanilla because it's not.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Should only happen if you accept party invites mid fight.
Shouldn't happen at all. Layers shouldn't exist.
The fact that dudes abuse phasing for farming sucks. Should have been better implemented.
Shouldn't have been implemented at all. >But your argument that it would be truer to vanilla if they fiddled with the fricking spawnrates is just disingenuous. You are literally saying "It would be more like vanilla if they made it less like vanilla".
Vanilla also had variable spawn rates, you tool. SO DID CLASSIC, DESPITE THE FRICKING LAYERS. You're an ignoramus. Also, the amount of players has nothing to do with the "trueness" of vanilla.
>You fricking moron. Classic servers are MASSIVELY bigger than vanilla servers ever were.
And Nostalrius servers were bigger then Classic servers were. Nobody cared. Just increase the spawn rate, or open new servers.
Layering is just some schizo cope.
Imagine is wrong. WoW was always meant to be the casual version of EQ and they reached peak casualization in wotlk then immediately did a heel turn and started making the game for hardcore raiders. It's why despite being older than FFXIV WoW has no fricking content outside of raiders that get invalidated each patch and PvP, which is neglected as frick.
>MoP farms
scrapped. >garrisons
scrapped. >class order halls
scrapped >battle pets
hasn't been iterated on in forever >war tables
scrapped. >islands expeditions
scrapped. >flight combat
scrapped. >Darkmoon faire
Hasn't been iterated on in forever
They can't even keep raids relevant like FFXIV can. Didn't BFA had some basic profession quests or something? I don't remember anything of the sort in Shadowlands.
Blizzard are inept motherfrickers and made the game revolve around .01% of the player base and now they've dug themselves into such a deep hole they literally cannot get out of it because the behaviors that lead them to where they're at is ingrained on such a fundamental level that it'd require a mass purge from the very top of Blizzard to fix.
Based. Kinda wrong on few instances like Wotlk mentioning blood elves when they were released in TBC but generally speaking yes - WoW was dead with the release of Icecrown Citadel.
Nah. Second part of Wotlk is trash. Even on private servers to this day half of my guild always melts around the time we get to ToC/ICC because these raids are boring and uninspiring and because at this point the catch up system completely takes over invaliding everything but ICC and emblems of frost. Killing Arthas was hype as frick when you did it 12 years ago but now I realize how much damage it did as Blizzard ran out of ideas and stories from Warcraft 3.
I can agree that WotLk was a mixed bag.
Nax was underwhelming, but I understand that they brought it back since literally most of the wow playerbase never even cleared half of it.
ToC was one of the worst raids ever devised, and the "pvp raid" part of it was just sad when it could have been cool. It also thematically was fricking weird to hold a cool little tournament before finishing the big war.
But Ulduar was GOAT, and I think ICC was among the best raids ever as well. Specially arthas himself.
Then what most people forget: The expansion ended on Ruby Sanctum. One of the worst raids.
Wotlk PVE was trash outside of Ulduar. I think ICC is memorable because of the insane gear you could get from there but your average private WoW raiding scene ends on 25man Deathbringer Saurfang where 90% of people are only interested in DBW.
Kara was a dogshit raid and Ulduar will be the same once nostalgia is past
Everyone on TBC dodged Kara as soon as they could because it was tedious and boring, it just looks pretty
Siege, Firelands, HFC and Nighthold blow out all the shitty classic raids without trying
2 years ago
Anonymous
>once nostalgia has past
It was over 13 years ago.
2 years ago
Anonymous
And everybody who thinks Ulduar was good hasn't touched it in 13 years
What really gets me is the decline of the lore of the games. It so uninteresting by the end after they ruined everything that Warcraft 3 set up. It's just so sad because the story was actually really interesting, to have it ruined in some stupid shitty MMO is just the worst possible way to have it happen. WOTLK trailer though is amazing.
Most people quit before Wrath was over. They had insanely low retention rates and high turnover as they burned through tens of millions of players that never hit cap
Only bad players quit in Cata
Everyone quit WoW when League of Legends released. Why spends months trying to gear up a single character when you can do it in 30 minutes again and again?
Cata is strictly better than Wrath >better dungeons >no tank homosexualry in pvp >rbgs >proper 10m raiding >Molten front blows AT out of the water >healing has actual depth >class rotations have actual depth >archeology a fun distraction
>decided on anything when Wrath is going to crash a month in just like TBC did because it's shallow garbage
The devs even realize Wrath is in no way like Vanilla and are trying to avoid including LFD but every casual is clamoring for it. No reason to hold back LFR at that point
2 years ago
Anonymous
>when Wrath is going to crash a month in just like TBC did because it's shallow garbage
Headcannon TBC had more players than Classic.
2 years ago
Anonymous
No it doesn't lmao
More gold buying paypigs maybe. Classic population tanked in p2 vanilla and never recovered
I love Wrath, I really do, but I can't bring myself to pay a sub for it again. I did it for Classic, I did it for like a month for TBC, but I don't think I can do it again with Wrath.
wouldnt have moved onto BC, shouldve kept it in vanilla and added onto it with new content, first patch would have been new races, then gradually adding scrapped ideas / raids from design notes made in the old days, I suppose theres still a chance of this happening after Wrath has been out for awhile because there is no way in frick they'll do Cata classic, who knows, can't say I care anymore after its been monteized with boosts, havent touched the game since the dark portal pass was a thing
>botting completely out of control >staff decides to devote all resources to removing your ability to type "Black person" into the chat
There's no fixing the political rot in that company and you are much better off playing private servers because apparently autistic slavs make a better blizz like experience in their basements.
1. remove layering after day 1 when everyone is out of the starting zones
2. remove the stupid shit that emulates old internet where you miss every interrupt
3. let all party members loot quest items so you can actually group with people
4. actually ban bots
>2. remove the stupid shit that emulates old internet where you miss every interrupt
I've seen PVP players complain that its too easy to interrupt compared to the old days. As usual I come to Ganker and see people who don't play the game complain about something they are obviously dead wrong about.
>3. let all party members loot quest items so you can actually group with people
>remove the stupid shit that emulates old internet where you miss every interrupt
I still cant believe they kept THAT in, but also added layering and then they say "no changes, just how you wanted"
What fricking moron wants literal delay that was only in the game because the technology wasnt as good back then? >let all party members loot quest items so you can actually group with people
This should have also been in the game from the start. I cant wrap my head around the logic of items not being shared in the party.
>remove layers >lock servers past ~3k players >make premades match other premades in bgs >make the mage boosting changes before it got out of hand >stay in vanilla and add classic+ content (lol) >ban gdkp
Classic is/was a solved game. >you have to get all the worldbuffs >you have to get minmaxed proffs >you have to farm gazillion gold for consumables every week >you have to form minmaxed setup >you have to abuse battle chickens >you have to speed level with guideline addons >you have to boost/use boost >you have to buy gold for real money >you have to read guides/minmax strats on the internet, depriving you of all the fun of self-exploring >you have to seal twist >you have to downrank heals
And if you want to walk around the world, greet people who say "hello" back, adventure together, overcome great challenges (other than defeating the roster boss), have fun and feel exhilarated - forget about that. Classic is empty for you.
Part of me wants to resub and play Classic era to frick around in but the servers are basically dead now, SoM is already wrapping up and aslo frick giving money to blizz.
I might have come back if they made classic f2p as a "get them kids hooked early" to live, but nah, I'm not paying 15 bucks a month to play content I've already lived trough for nostalgia sake.
SoM was doomed from the start. What fricking moron releases pvp ranked gear before BWL. Literally everyone was just grinding bgs and classic pvp ranking is fricking terrible. It causes the majority of people who even try it to burn out and never come back because of the decay system.
It was worse than just that, after the 1st two weeks the people that did enough pvp to rank shot up exponentially while other people were still leveling their main characters. My guild had people that were able to buy the full blue set at the start of the 3rd week of SoM because of the way they changed the decay of the pvp system wanting to incentivize pvp gearing. Had one guy go hard and had warlord gear before a month went by maybe sooner memory is kinda fuzzy. Early on the fewer people in the pool meant you could go from no rank to rank 6 the 1st week with marginal pvping in the open world and bg's and then rank 10 the second it was absurd early on. Blizzard has lil to no idea what they're doing.
It's almost perfect as it is but a lot of specs aren't viable and rotations consist of two or three buttons. Hell if you're a mage it's one. Modern wow rotations are fun and high apm.
Vanilla with a little qol would be fricking kino. I hope they just go to lich king and then do vanilla reimagined or something. Ascension private server is fricking awesome with the enchants and seasonal game modes to be honest. Blizzard would make a killing doing that.
Announce that saying the N-word isn't a bannable offense or worthy of suspension then catalogue everyone who spammed it more than 100 times the 1st hour and make sure they stay banned for life. Community is instantly cleansed of shit.
Only change I would've made initially would've been to block addons.
Then after it died off in 3-4 months make a proper classic+ by adding new zones, new content to level throguh, new racea, classes, modernizing gameplay so it's not so simplistic but trying to keep the great balance the game has (in classic if you don't pay attention, you die and most fights are overall challenging), make tanking/healing viable DPS when soloing
Remove world buffs and release BG's at the same time as the honor system. World buffs made raiding un fun for the veterans, getting raped for honor by autistic rankers while levelling killed newbies interest, those two things alone were basically a death blow to the game. I earnestly believe if you changed those two things classic would've been much more alive for much longer.
Make it enjoyable: >Boost drop rates
2 drops for a 40 man raid is unacceptable >Allow dungeon finder
Only idiots believe DF destroyed "server community", what destroyed Server community was that the game ballooned to 12 million players, and you can't know everyone in a game like that.
The most popular vanilla servers had 3k unique players a month, only few of them always active. After the explosion of BC and LK, that was just not possible any more.
Also: All not having LFG having does, is waste players time. Who the frick enjoys spending 2 hours in a main city spamming chat for a level 20 dungeon?
That's the most you can do while keeping the "spirit" of vanilla.
Vanilla WoW Classic
1. Vanilla-like server population caps, dynamic respawns and a 100% temporary increase for the server population the first few months of the release and then toning back to normal as tourists left
2. Announce ahead of time that dead/dying servers would be merged with other servers and do it when it actually happens
3. Faction queues if the population of one faction exceeds 55% on PvP servers
4. No paid faction transfers at all
5. Actually hire GMs to police the game and permanently ban people who participate in RMT at first offense
6. Disallow ban evasion by making a new account - if you're banned, you're banned, you don't get to come back
7. Only allow one account per person to be logged on at the same time
8. Patch progression instead of content progression, the game doesn't start at 1.12 balance with everything past Ony/MC locked away, it starts at 1.1 balance
9. Battlegrounds are server-specific, no cross-server features at all
10. Chronoboom from day one, and also make it store the Silithyst buff
TBC WoW Classic
1. Halve MH trash
2. Personal loot
3. Dual spec
4. Dungeon Finder
5. Raid Finder (no Raid Finder difficulty, it's still the same difficulty as normal)
6. Boss loot lockout as opposed to raid ID lockout
7. Make phases 2, 3, 4, and 5 all last three months longer
8. Unlock cross-server features for arena, battlegrounds, and dungeon/raid finder
9. No arena rating requirement for any gear
>1) Actually ban bots >2) Don't introduce 1.20 talents on pre.1.20 content. >3) Quickly remove layering and if possible only have it in the starting zones
I also really like this idea:
>1. Vanilla-like server population caps, dynamic respawns and a 100% temporary
I don't think it could be fixed other than a complete overhaul of the game to no longer make it into a "solved" game. A big part of vanilla was the sense of wonder at the unknown and that was never going to still be there.
SOM was not a "complete overhaul" of the game - it was an half-ass attempt at retaining people who want vanilla and not TBC after they made people pay for character cloning and that backfired massively because no one wanted to pay for that shit
>Season 1: Season of Mastery
Buff shitty specs and classes like paladins and boomkins so they can actually contribute overall to the group instead of just a fringe buff >Season 2: Season of the Crusade
Add draenei and Belfs to classic, keep the changes from the past season >Season 3: Season of Death
Add death knights to classic
No changes
Progressive patch releases
At the end of the final phase Kazzak invades and destroys everything and the server resets to phase 1.
Just make it the same as Nostalrius basically
layering for only starter zones/ world buffs removed/fixing broken shit that if happened back then would have been fixed ie mages pulling all of dungeons solo/dungeon quest reseting addons for powerleveling
only new thing needed would be a prestige system since mmos are not "new" anymore there wont be waves of new players
Nah just remove honor. The first phase before they introduced honor had the perfect amount of pvp. After honor came in it just turned into roving death squads of honor farmers, and then BGs removed any interest in world pvp entirely.
BGs and honor were unironically the reason World PvP even happened.
Ironically BGs were a HUGE boost to World PvP, and if you played vanilla, or knew anyone who grinded for High Warlord, you would have known that.
The problem with vanilla BGs was that they were super long, and hard to get into.
Why do you think so much world PvP happened around Hillsbrad Foothills? For the scenery? Nah, it was because you had to physically move to the BG to queue, and Hillsbrad was were you queued.
But if you wanted your PvP rank, you needed honor kills. And invites into BGs could unironically take hours. So what's a PvPgay to do? Run around the zone and start killing people for HKs.
Most of the people doing open world PvP in Hillsbrad and such didn't actually want to do world PvP. They wanted to play BGs, but the system was so bad, the game forced them to duke it out in the world somewhere. PvE players hated it, PvP players didn't like it because it was less efficent than a BG, only a few gays who couldn't hack it in PvP enjoyed ganking low levels just to be a dick.
That's why every attempt by blizz to bring back world PvP flopped horribly. Because it's one of these things people remember as "cool" that actually just happened because other shit sucked so bad.
Like how idiots think dungeon finder ruined the game, when dungeon finder might unironically be the best thing to ever happen to wow.
>BGs and honor were unironically the reason World PvP even happened.
Nah, world pvp felt spontaneous and natural before honor was introduced. Because they did it for fun.
That was a REAL short time from November 2004 to April 2005. People did some PvP before then, here and there. Sure. But as far as I remember, the BIG OUTBREAK of World PvP, was with the introduction of Honor, and then with the introduction of Battlegrounds, it became concentrated to specific areas near the BG Signup.
I mean most people who talk fondly about their open world PvP exploits, have Hillsbrad stories. There's a reason for that.
>Like how idiots think dungeon finder ruined the game, when dungeon finder might unironically be the best thing to ever happen to wow.
t. nublizz dev wondering why the game is dying
>Like how idiots think dungeon finder ruined the game, when dungeon finder might unironically be the best thing to ever happen to wow.
You're going to trigger so many idiots with that statement lmao
It's a true statement.
Most people think the LFG tool killed community, because it coincided with the "death" of community around WotLK.
But the true death of the community was that server that before had around a thousand to at max 3 thousand unique logins per month, now has WAY fricking more, since the game ballooned to 12mil subscriptions. And you can't have community, as well as so many millions of players.
So LFG became the scapegoat for community death.
But as someone who did many PUG dungeons during vanilla and TBC, I can tell you: There was no meaningful difference between a PUG and and an LFG run. All it was, was that the PUG could take hours to get together and move to the dungeon. You rarely, if ever stayed friends with the people in the group, and even multiple runs only happened occasionally. usually one or more people had to go and it fell apart.
Specially during TBC, you at best befriended tanks and healers to quicker find groups, something that still happened during LFG, because queue times for DPS could be truly ass.
All in all, I honestly see no evidence that LFG had a noticeable negative effect on the game. Hell, it likely resulted in me playing with a lot more different people and talking to them, than I ever did pre lfg.
>All in all, I honestly see no evidence that LFG had a noticeable negative effect on the game.
Yeah because pressing a button and being put in a queue to be grouped with people from other servers and then teleported to the dungeon so that
a) you have no actual social interaction with other people
and
b) you have no interaction with the game world
just so you can sit around farming <bigger ilvl item> in the capital HAD NO NOTICEABLE NEGATIVE EFFECT ON THE GAME...
except the game bleeding subs for the rest of time after it was introduced.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>except the game bleeding subs for the rest of time after it was introduced.
You can't prove that LFG caused this.
Correlation does not imply causation.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>You can't prove that LFG caused this.
Don't care israelite we all know it's true
True, but before LFG there were a lot of never/more casual players who had never experienced parties or dungeons because it seemed like too much work to get started when instead you could spend that time questing and leveling normally. Now I'm not saying that games should be dumbed down for casuals, but you have to admit there was a bit of an entry barrier on the original dungeons.
Plus with LFG I can level my healer faster without having to constantly switch specs for leveling
If you want new players to do dungeons just add tutorials
2 years ago
Anonymous
True, but before LFG there were a lot of never/more casual players who had never experienced parties or dungeons because it seemed like too much work to get started when instead you could spend that time questing and leveling normally. Now I'm not saying that games should be dumbed down for casuals, but you have to admit there was a bit of an entry barrier on the original dungeons.
Plus with LFG I can level my healer faster without having to constantly switch specs for leveling
2 years ago
Anonymous
I think the introduction of LFG was just a part of a larger shift towards dungeons and farming runs and eventually raids as a whole. A lot of players got fed up when they put most of their content focus on creating new dungeons then finding ways to require players to run them multiple times instead of working on improving the game as a whole. Players like me who enjoyed questing and story more than endlessly farming dungeons all started leaving the game.
LFG was a symptom of the problem, but not the cause.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>and then teleported to the dungeon
That didn't even happen until a bit later >a) you have no actual social interaction with other people
I interacted with people in LFG about the same amount as I did with people in PUGs.
In pugs at best the extra interaction is going: "I can't find a healer in chat. Do you know anyone?" Then going back to not caring about your PUG until the group is full and then whining that one gay is on the wrong continent. >b) you have no interaction with the game world
Again, at first you had to physically move to the dungeon. Kinda like the Mythic + group tool later.
But also: >before group finder: >Stand in Shatt as a priest >Spam "Shadow Priest looking for heroic Shadowlabs XXX+ shadow damage!" >get whisper: "Heal?" >repeat for an hour >finally find someone >have to still find a tank >after close to 2 hours move to the dungeon >finish it, finally be done.
After lfg: >get to actually play the game while looking for a group >can run 5 dungeons in the time it took to run one before >Means get to chat and actually play the game with 5 times more people >somehow this makes it less social.
All you gays always says is how it makes it "less social". And I'm starting to think that it's just because nobody wanted to queue with you after the dungeon.
Because I've made many more friends during WotLK LFG than classic and TBC chat spam. You can still talk to your group, befriend them, add them to your friends list and queue and play with them. And people do that.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Dumbasses have been parroting >group finder killed the community xD
for years at this point when the thing responsible since day 1 has been cross-server play.
grouping kept to a small pool of people that you gradually get to know is how communities get made, it doesn't matter if it's through trade chat or some tool. get randomly matched with 4 people you'll never see again kills it completely
>Like how idiots think dungeon finder ruined the game, when dungeon finder might unironically be the best thing to ever happen to wow.
You're going to trigger so many idiots with that statement lmao
>BGs and honor were unironically the reason World PvP even happened.
Incorrect. WPvP happened before honor and BGs were added to the game, just for the sake of it. I would know because I was there. People liked the for their novelty despite there being no rewards for it. Naturally something like that wouldn't last forever though. >Ironically BGs were a HUGE boost to World PvP
The opposite of this is true, and it's important to separate BGs from the honor system. Honor system came first, BGs came in the patch after. >Why do you think so much world PvP happened around Hillsbrad Foothills?
It was a convenient location with well-placed graveyards for the purpose, and a contested zone where leveling horde and alliance would naturally meet which would turn into larger skirmishes. It has absolutely nothing to do with BGs like you're saying, because if you were there, you'd know that SS-TM fights were largely isolated to a single patch - the one with honor system but no BGs.
BGs killed these for the most part. It's not as if everyone on the server had long queues and would be forced to wait an hour in the queue. The minority faction would have fast queues (at non dead hours), while the majority had longer ones. They would have no large gatherings to fight in the world. On more balanced servers you had moderate queues, and in one of these I recall some small skirmishes happening at Ashenvale-Barrens area during queues. TM-SS is quite far removed from AV queue and have nothing to do with it.
On top of all that, a couple patches later you just queued from the capital.
>BGs and honor were unironically the reason World PvP even happened.
Incorrect. WPvP happened before honor and BGs were added to the game, just for the sake of it. I would know because I was there. People liked the for their novelty despite there being no rewards for it. Naturally something like that wouldn't last forever though. >Ironically BGs were a HUGE boost to World PvP
The opposite of this is true, and it's important to separate BGs from the honor system. Honor system came first, BGs came in the patch after. >Why do you think so much world PvP happened around Hillsbrad Foothills?
It was a convenient location with well-placed graveyards for the purpose, and a contested zone where leveling horde and alliance would naturally meet which would turn into larger skirmishes. It has absolutely nothing to do with BGs like you're saying, because if you were there, you'd know that SS-TM fights were largely isolated to a single patch - the one with honor system but no BGs.
BGs killed these for the most part. It's not as if everyone on the server had long queues and would be forced to wait an hour in the queue. The minority faction would have fast queues (at non dead hours), while the majority had longer ones. They would have no large gatherings to fight in the world. On more balanced servers you had moderate queues, and in one of these I recall some small skirmishes happening at Ashenvale-Barrens area during queues. TM-SS is quite far removed from AV queue and have nothing to do with it.
On top of all that, a couple patches later you just queued from the capital.
The killing people for honor was rarer in actual vanilla, because honor grinding was less optimized and tryhard. I ranked to 11 in vanilla, never had a need for that. Just the usual premades, hit standing 2 at best at which point the people going for 14 were telling me to slow down. What you're talking about was mostly a classic phenomenon. Honor released before BGs, big raids were inefficient for honor, so you had to go hunting all day. And even with BGs, hordes had such long queues they just camped FPs during queues. This wasn't a thing in vanilla, because the game was less solved, less optimized.
Honor system also included something that stopped people almost entirely from city raids, and large WPvP in general - dishonorable kills. These weren't in right away, but were added in the BG patch. No one farming for honor would dare be part of a raid that took close a town, because there always was the risk that someone would kill a civilian and cost them a shitton of ranking.
>That's why every attempt by blizz to bring back world PvP flopped horribly. Because it's one of these things people remember as "cool" that actually just happened because other shit sucked so bad.
This isn't entirely wrong. Like I mentioned earlier, the large scale WPvP was mainly done out of novelty, but the way blizz tried to implement new forms of wpvp (sand, towers) was just horrible. The objectives were irrelevant, there was no need to compete over them, so no one had a reason to care. Thorium veins would result in more wpvp than those.
>Like how idiots think dungeon finder ruined the game, when dungeon finder might unironically be the best thing to ever happen to wow.
I mean if you want to play an mmo like a single player game, that's true.
Not making daily chores mandatory to keep up with top tier raiding. As soon as the game became a second job, I quit. Which is a shame because I still miss it.
I do, but the experience is undeniably different from the first time. I enjoyed Classic, but I just would have enjoyed it significantly more without the "meta is dogma" mentality being normalized by the player base (a problem which is certainly not exclusive to WoW and is why I generally dislike multiplayer games these days).
hahahahaha
he missed it
he didn't play classic wow relaunch
omggggggggggggg
he thought it wouldnt be shit and he sat it out
LOL
he didn't know it was the last opportunity to ever enjoy an MMO in his lifetime and he missed it LOL
I love quite literally all but a few servers all instantly dying on launch cause literally everyone and their mother dogpiled Horde, and were so autismal they actively destroyed servers. The fact that Blizzard bailed them out of their own idiocy will always anger me.
I would make an entire 2k letter limit letter but it'll never change the fact that Blizzard failed classic and allowed it to immediately devolve into a reflection of retail.
It was originally meant to be for people who wanted to experience vanilla as it was - but these people were overwhelmed by retail tourists who decided to stick around and immediately turned into a P2W fiesta with Blizzard's consent and Blizzard immediately capitalized on it with TBC pre-orders and now wotlk pre-order.
Classic is dead. Retail is dead. Blizzard only wants to milk as much money on the short-term as possible. Move on
I think the biggest problem is that vanilla WoW was designed for it's time, and for gamers at the time it was pretty good. Then almost two decades later they decide to release the same game in a very different gaming generation and act all confused about why it isn't a huge success. All that happened was that the original WoW players played for a few months for that nostalgia, while modern gamers played like a month and then quit because they were expecting the same modern game just with maybe older graphics. Basically nobody was happy.
classic+ should have been the main goal.
Frick #nochanges sweaties. All they want to do is emulate nostalrius with all its flaws and exploits. What a terrible community classic is.
>Frick #nochanges sweaties. All they want to do is emulate nostalrius with all its flaws and exploits.
No they just want to be able to play the fricking game the Blizzard just deleted. They don't want retail, they don't want some gay expansion that you can go to in retail anyway, they don't want NuBlizzard's attempt at "improving" vanilla, THEY JUST WANT THE FRICKING GAME THEY PAID FOR 15 YEARS AGO THAT THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO ACCESS ANYMORE
it's the #nochanges people who want an easy game because they have played it countless times on private servers. You are not fooling anyone sweatie. The sweaty fears new content because they fear being exposed.
Play a different game homosexual, if you need the game to be made easier because you can't adapt to the difficulty than frick off.
Only an Idiot with rose tinted glasses could not admit the flaws vanilla had: >stunlocks pre diminishing returns
There's famous videos of rogues with grey level 1 daggers, stunlocking level 60 characters and killing them, without them having a chance to do anything. >8 debuff limit on a 40 man boss >2 item drop for 40 man raid >Gearing was a joke,specially during leveling with dumb stats, and no spellpower for casters >https://classicdb.ch/?item=14551 this random ass mail item, being one of the best warrior items in the game >Fricking plainswalking >BG queue times >class balance was a fricking joke >Most classes had only 1 spec out of three that was really viable. (some exceptions, some situational stuff) >Mage instakill pvp builds >Insanely high cooldowns on some skills like lay on hands >Leveling was clearly designed for DPS specs, leveling a tank or healer was hell, yet kinda needed for a lot of dungeons while leveling. >spamming low rank spells, specially heals is way better value than using your highest ranked spell. >Having to click "Shoot" on a wand after every attack >If you didn't know every flight path on the way to your destination you couldn't taxi there. >Macros being so powerful, anyone who knew anything about writing them could make their entire class into a single optimized macro. >This included at one point (before weapon swapping introduced a global cooldown), creating macros to swap to the highest dmg weapon you own, activating a weapon dmg based skill, and then swapping back to your regular weapons.
Anybody who says Vanilla was perfect either hadn't played vanilla enough, or just has very. VERY low standards.
>stunlocks pre diminishing returns
Diminishing returns were a thing since beta. CS and KS were separate and stayed separate (I don't know or care about cata+ shit). >8 debuff limit on a 40 man boss
Was 16 for the most part but still not good design. >Gearing was a joke,specially during leveling with dumb stats, and no spellpower for casters
Intended and unironically not bad design. The goal was "make everything" to give players options and figure out what's good >this random ass mail item, being one of the best warrior items in the game
Unironically good design (see above), because people didn't even realize how good they were for the entirety of vanilla. >Fricking plainswalking
?? >Most classes had only 1 spec out of three that was really viable. (some exceptions, some situational stuff)
It's harder to think of of classes with only 1 viable spec, unless you limit them by purpose, ie. "only 1 viable spec for raids", "only 1 viable spec for pvp", "only 1 viable spec for leveling". >Mage instakill pvp builds
Always a meme and not good. >Insanely high cooldowns on some skills like lay on hands
Irrelevant. >Leveling was clearly designed for DPS specs, leveling a tank or healer was hell, yet kinda needed for a lot of dungeons while leveling.
Literally no one leveled with healing/tank spec because you could tank/heal dungeons with a dps spec >spamming low rank spells, specially heals is way better value than using your highest ranked spell.
Added depth to healing, as you'd have to pick what rank is best in what context. >Having to click "Shoot" on a wand after every attack
I forgot what patch in vanilla changed this, but it was horrible before.
>Diminishing returns were a thing since beta.
Fear and sap could still be done indefinetly, and rogues could stunlock forever.
Was 8 until 1.7 which is pretty long. In september 2005. >to give players options and figure out what's good
Some items just were never good, would never be good. They clearly had just no idea what they were doing. >??
https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Plainsrunning
My bad, my magic infested brain changed plainsrunning to plainswalking. >Always a meme and not good.
Doesn't change the fact that sometimes you would just get one-shot. >Irrelevant.
Very relevant. Because insanely high cooldowns for certain skills means you need to co-ordinate your group to only use certain spells every Xth attempt at a boss, or else you would gimp your power. That's bad design.
Fun fact tho: When WotLK Naxx was in beta, if you had some T3, combined it with some T7, and I think a talent (and maybe a glyph?) you could have lay on hands with no cooldown, and just spam full heals on anybody. >Literally no one
Except all the people who did. And there were plenty. Way later, people who had experience KNEW not to level as a tank or healer because it was a trap, but a LOT of people playing their first character did, and it should not have been a trap. >as you'd have to pick what rank is best in what context.
It should have never been a thing, the highest rank should always be the only viable rank. If you need to switch to less / more effective heals, that's what greater/lesser/quick heal is for, not ranks.
Also: Mages should not be able to kite melee classes forever with level 1 frostbolts.
But en large, I can see you can agree with me on how some vanilla shit was absolutely horrible, and thus the idea that "Vanilla was perf. don't change a thing" is silly.
I think for instance we can both agree vanilla would be better if Debuffs were unlimited. I'd also ad "Naxxramas needing way more tanks than any raid before" to the list of dumb decisions.
>Fear and sap could still be done indefinetly
Incorrect. Both had diminishing returns since beta. Only difference was that that vanilla used heartbeat resists while TBC+ introduced a max duration (12s, then 10s). This meant that your sap could possibly break after 5 seconds, or after 20 seconds. >rogues could stunlock forever
Incorrect. Long stunlocking was heavily reliant on blind, of which you had 2 with prep. CS->KS->blind->sap->CS->KS->blind->sap->CS->KS. After honor system and the introduction of pvp trinkets, almost every class could break out of it. Warrior (pvp trinket), paladin (pvp trinket), hunter (pvp trinket), shaman (pvp trinket), druid (pvp trinket, also only possible if stuck in caster form), mage (blink, ice block), priest (pvp trinket). Only other rogues had no counter, and technically warlocks if they didn't have succubus up. And after ZG and LAP everyone could counter it. >They clearly had just no idea what they were doing.
It was an intended design decision like I mentioned, Kevin Jordan has talked about it in some videos. At least it's better than the current design in many things, where everything you get has the same stats, just with bigger numbers. Items like that can lead to unusual things, and they can also make the better items feel more impactful and nicer to get. >plainsrunning
I don't know why something that was a thing in beta for a bit is relevant.
>Doesn't change the fact that sometimes you would just get one-shot.
Not much different from getting gcd'd by a rogue as a mage because you figured stamina was useless. >Because insanely high cooldowns for certain skills means you need to co-ordinate your group to only use certain spells every Xth attempt at a boss, or else you would gimp your power. That's bad design.
Having to coordinate is bad? It's just additional depth, adding meaningful decisions. Is it worth using a combat res now? Is the fight going good enough now that we can get the kill if we use it but would likely fail without it? This isn't bad design, but modern game design with its "everything is a level playing field where everyone has access to everything every time" has rotted your brain. >Except all the people who did.
And they always had the option to change it. You're not forced to stay the same spec for the entirety of leveling. You have the freedom to experiment. You could level with a friend, you could keep running dungeons all the time. And the goal of the game isn't to hit 60 as fast as you can. Leveling is part of the game. This one reeks of modern game design considerations again. >If you need to switch to less / more effective heals, that's what greater/lesser/quick heal is for, not ranks.
I appreciate the added depth and would've killed myself if the only option for healing was that. And it was another thing that wasn't explicitly designed, but simply figured out by players. I heavily appreciate those.
>But en large, I can see you can agree with me on how some vanilla shit was absolutely horrible
There were many things that were objectively bad then and fixed in later patches, things that were bad due to technical limitations (debuff limit), and things that are bad now because the game is played differently. The overall design, however, was great, and listening to the community for changes leads to retail.
>Having to coordinate is bad? It's just additional depth
Actually it removes depth, as now you have to fight a lot of fights without all of your abilities, and only say, one fight each hour you can use everything you have.
2 years ago
Anonymous
What you're doing is removing the consideration of when to use an ability, which generally reduces depth. Just being able to use an ability doesn't add depth, it requires that there's an actual decision to be made. Now your combat res turns from "do we use it this time" to "use it immediately because there's no downside" (disregarding the choice of who you use it on, which applies in both cases).
2 years ago
Anonymous
You can still still have consideration of when to use an ability by give it a cooldown long enough to be only usable once per fight. By making it a 1h cooldown you serve no purpose other than to gimp a majority of the fights.
That's why eventually all cooldowns got changed to be bound to combat status.
I mean frick, you could say the same about 8 max debuffs, but there you would agree it's moronic: "Making it a maximum of 8 debuffs, really forces you to think which debuffs you should apply on a boss". Technically sure, but you have more overall depth if you remove this limit and let everyone use their full toolkit.
All these were good changes: >cooldowns don't last into other combats >remove spell ranks
Btw I was a shadow priest, I benefited for a long time from rank 1 spell blackout proccs, so it's not like I just hate what others have. >remove skill trees >remove debuff caps >adding more drops to bosses >dungeon finder.
Probably more good stuff in there.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>That's why eventually all cooldowns got changed to be bound to combat status.
And while doing this they were also removing everything potentially unique and fun, in order to turn fights as static as possible. Everything should be fair. This is very different from vanilla design, where various unique items, buffs, etc could play a significant role in various situations. Engineering in general describes this very well. It wasn't necessarily fair, and most importantly, it's not supposed to be fair all the time. That's part of the charm. The only problem is that in the current climate, whatever is even a little unfair becomes the meta. Still, I'm utterly disgusted by design decisions that attempt to maximize fairness, as that generally results in homogenization.
>dungeon finder
Does nothing but harm, especially when combined with cross realm functionality and teleportation.
People require a reason and time to socialize. Some are more talkative than others, and require almost nothing to talk to strangers. Most aren't exactly like this, and require some sort of push. Manually having to create groups, having to actually talk to people to join them (even if it's just "inv") is part of this. Creating the group itself is also a topic of conversation, which makes socializing easier. What do we need, what can you do, why does no one want to do lbrs, etc. They're minor things by themselves, but significant as a whole. People also need the opportunity and time to talk, and actually traveling to the dungeon is a part of this. It's a tedious task where there's not much to do, but that's why it's a good time to socialize. Very different from appearing in the dungeon with 4 strangers, pulling stuff left and right and being too busy playing the game to talk.
This is the short version because I ran out of room and can't be bothered with multiple posts.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Read trough this thread, I've explained at length while dungeon finder has become the bogyman that killed socialization, when that just clearly isn't true.
But also: You can chat just as much with a dungeon finder group, as you can with a PUG. Usually it's not at all, sometimes it's a bit when something wild happens. Sometimes some people are just chatty.
You can add these people as friends and queue with them. Dungeon finder didn't remove a social aspect of the game, it enhanced it. You get together with more people, and quicker.
All it removed was standing in a city, spamming chat to get people together instead of playing the game.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>You can chat just as much with a dungeon finder group, as you can with a PUG
This is the moronic argument everyone uses and it entirely ignores when and why people chat, and I already explained why briefly. I can't be bothered getting into this topic ore so than this, because I could write an essay on it and have talked about it several times over the years here, so I'd only be repeating myself yet again.
2 years ago
Anonymous
My man. You are delusional if you think people chatted in groups pre dungeon finder because the game had a neat social aspect. People were annoyed and bored out of their mind because it took an hour to get a group for 20 minutes of content together.
That's not a good point for the game: "Welp, the shit is so slow and bad that you can make friends with the other idiots who are waiting".
The TRUE reason social aspect died is because the game went to 12 million players with servers full of tens of thousands of people. Not because getting into dungeons got easier. People still chatted with their dungeon finder group.
You just WANT dungeon finder to be the bad guy, BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR IT BEING AT FAULT AT ALL.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Dungeon finder necessitates shitty dungeon design with 0 challenge that plagued Wrath, MoP and WoD pre mythic dungeons and why Cata's dungeons got so much push back
No challenge means easy to turn off your brain and not talk
Removing Dungeon Finder doesnt instantly make the dungeons good, as Wrath will clearly have shit dungeons with or without it, but removing dungeon finder is a necessary step to create good dungeons
2 years ago
Anonymous
>wrath dungeons >being mechanically simpler than vanilla and BC
Vanilla had exactly zero mechanics, BC was simple as shit too. The only reason people died in BC dungeons was because Heroics were HEAVILY overtuned.
If you think Vanilla and BC dungeons were more complex than wrath and after dungeons you TRULY are delusional.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Vanilla and TBC had fears that could wipe which is 1 mechanic more than the literal 0 in Wrath
Obviously every (good) dungeon after Wrath was far more complex but we saw how badly that played out in Cata LFD
I kinda like Classic solely because it's fun to go back to a time when getting your mount was a big deal, not just something that happened 20 minutes into a new character. Other than that the entire community is garbage
Outlaw is fixed, it's going to be the most fun spec in the game, and even got a raid buff. It has 32 buttons from just baseline + talents that have in combat uses.
>Chronoboon
lmao
such a dumb band aid solution to something that wasn't even really a problem
If you think the community figuring out how to optimise the game 15 years after it was released is bad, you might be a communist. If you really think it was so bad that it needed to be "fixed"...
...all they had to do was make world buffs run out while logged out.
>such a dumb band aid solution to something that wasn't even really a problem
Yes I enjoy raidlogging my main for 6 out of 7 days to preserve raid buffs that we need to schedule throughout the week in order to maximize uptime, only for some moron to purge them in town or at the instance portal, or some other moron to frick up in Naxx and wipe us removing all buffs from the 39 other players. High quality MMO gameplay.
>Yes I enjoy raidlogging my main for 6 out of 7 days to preserve raid buffs that we need to schedule throughout the week in order to maximize uptime, only for some moron to purge them in town or at the instance portal, or some other moron to frick up in Naxx and wipe us removing all buffs from the 39 other players. High quality MMO gameplay.
Yeah if only you could play on a pve server where inconveniences to your work schedu- I mean raid schedule could be avoided along with the other 50% of people in the game. I mean who'd want to play an MMO with MMO features right?
yo homo, I know you were too much of a casual to play classic but full world buffs were not mandatory to raid besides naxx and literally no one raid logged their mains until they had at least 10,000g or more and their epic mount / max professions.
>only for some moron to purge them in town or at the instance portal, or some other moron to frick up in Naxx and wipe us removing all buffs from the 39 other players. High quality MMO gameplay.
Don't play on a PVP server than you fricking homosexual
Literally was PVP on a PVP server and I would not get rid of it for anything. Finding spots for summoners to get our raiders, stealing warchiefs, raping griefers after raid, going with massive groups to the island and getting into fights over who's going to drop heart was so fricking great. Operating in enemy territory to snag DMF once a month was kino. We'd send a raid group into Blackrock Mountain with back up from another two guild's raid groups to fight other raids/griefers off and then do the same for them on their raid days. By far the most massive player interactions I've seen in videogames in probably decades and it was awesome everytime. Anybody who didn't like world buffs is a homosexual.
Not even mentioning the highs and lows of raiding with world buffs, shredding everything at top speed for our first sub-hour AQ40 and Naxx was a high I will never forget and the prospect of losing your buffs because you or someone else fricks something up keeps you on the edge the whole time.
Peak WoW, better than retail anyday of the week, and even better than Vanilla. My nostalgia can eat a dick there was nothing like this back then.
One of the best parts of classic was killing (not just purging, that's for gays) people with wbuffs. Even better if you got to listen to their salt after from their alt account or on the server discord.
> hardware ban or imprison all gold buyers > hardware ban or imprison all gold sellers > enforce a relatively balanced faction ratio > ban GDKPs and SRs - only allowed to use need vs greed or round robin loot > shut down wowhead > shut down warcraftlogs > fire everyone with colored hair > only hire giganerds and gigageeks > undo all the political correctness updates > remove flying
Delist it from twitch (and youtube, but that's not possible)
Monetizing gameplay completely corrupts the experience. It incentivizes people to share information for money instead of keep it to themselves for in-game prestige. Information sharing leads to bad players trying to metagame, which was the worst thing about classic.
But what I really want to play is classic with a decent endgame (not raiding) and some small class improvements. Progressively challenging 5-mans with juiced up crafting would work fine. Add a better PvP system suited to the open world and not bgs or arenas.
It would have been perfect if they just moderated their fricking game and got rid of the botters and gold sellers and especially the gold buyers. I would have preferred they stuck with nochanges too, but whatever. I could take or leave most of the shit fricked with.
>exp significantly diminished if a level 60 is in group >ban bots on sight rather than in waves after their 6 month resub kicks in >don't offer bots a boost for extra money >disable world buffs in instances >ban DBM and weakauras
I'm just tired of these people: >"It's simple, here's how they fix Classic and make it like the good ol' days" >[lists the patch notes for the latest Retail patch]
Old MMO playerbase was mostly fricking around and using WoW like a glorified social platform which was great because most people on that platform shared familiar hobbies. I think I spent more time on chat and guild drama than on raiding.
Current MMO playerbase is competitive as frick with their dopamine fried brains and only gets excited when competing for rank 1 and realm firsts. They skip/avoid any content that's suboptimal/unnecessary and generally have a "no fun allowed because I only have fun when I'm winning" policy.
No vanilla wasn't perfect from gameplay perspective but the community is a way bigger issue.
So my ideas would never get implemented. Blizzard isn't interested in listening either since you need to have a cuckscription to leave any suggestions on their new and improved community feedback forum (read bin)
Raidlogger here. I don't know what people hate raidlogging so much. Unironically hugh 40, 25, 20 man raid content is the best content wow has to offer every expansion. I would literally log in every day to farm some food before my raid, spend a few hours each week to farm flasks and pots, raid my ass off in a competitive raiding guild, then log off and play other, better games.
I started to hate the game when it required all these other daily fricking activities. At least as a shadow priest I got Xal'atath, the coolest artifact weapon. "Did you feel it cease to exist?"
Blizzard is literally looking for hundreds of underpaid interns they could molest and groom, why haven't you joined them if you're so unhappy with the current state of the game? >Also I can only imagine how "great" the next xpac is going to be if they're so understaffed
Single player, offline, action, physics. Eventually first person action shooter.
I actually just finished Hellgate London and just now coming off from it. The ending felt a little bit like dark souls combined with diablo. I didn’t like the parts that weren’t action, such as the RTS parts especially with the The Lightning giant android mech, which actually did less damage than I did than if I just solod the street myself. >What the frick were they thinking?!AVGN.jpg
But other than the bad story where they focused on bad characters like diviniation woman Emmera and spoilers they kill her off along with Murmur and generic music except for the combat music some of that got pretty good, the repetitive use of the same maps but generating them differently wasn’t good enough, the enemies just level up more powerful right after tou get a more powerful gun, not enough shooting off limbs, hands, feet, legs, or heads, the zombies do get pieces of their bodies blown off, like head or torso, but they still move after this like the black knight and are still deadly. Doesn’t make sense, and other enemies do not generally do this.
And how the weapons are just basically Fourth of July kid’s bag of fireworks tier of shooting mechanics. Nothing mature, just a circus bag of fireworks with a few cool weapons here and there and a lot of bad ones.
Too much focus on elements doing the damage and not enough on attributes or on simply bigger ammo and rocket rounds. They need to not separate attributes from physical sizes and weights of both character body and the damage that weapons can cause. Instead of having Elemental Defenses and Attributes, it should be that attributes are ONE and control defenses in the first place. I remember when world of Warcraft started in with special defenses after vanilla got its first expansion pack, leaving behind that strength and armor were the main stats and focusing more on arbitrary things separate from this.
>played vanilla & TBC, missed Wrath entirely, played Cata, and played a little on-and-off beyond there >haven't touched Classic at all >haven't play WoW at all since mid-Legion (~4 years ago) >suddenly have that MMO itch again, but hate what modern WoW has become >very hyped to try out WotLK classic when it launches
I sure hope I'm not going to be sorely disappointed. Heard very mixed things about Classic, some love it some hate it. The "some changes" thing they're doing could ruin it further or make things even better, it is a mystery.
The "fresh" servers sound like a perfect opportunity to try it, I won't be years behind everyone (economically, socially, etc.). But competing for quest mobs will be aids... hmm
They mentioned making changes to a possible Cataclysm Classic (since it's inevitable Wrath classic will eventually die down), with the possibility of "fixing" what people hate about it, what makes it feel like a schism in WoW history (before Cata is the classic days, beyond is nu-WoW).
What could realistically actually be done?
>keep the old world the same, no more Shattering. Just add the new zones >but now there's just 5 levels of content, and nothing makes sense lorewise >or, just no flying?
Feels like it's unsalvageable. The Classic crowd aren't ever going to like it.
They already announced frickton of changes to Wotlk classic. Blizzdrones and Blizzard troons unironically believe that their current version of WoW is more social, accessible and player friendly than Vanilla, TBC or Wotlk. Just let it go. Classic died with the release of 58 boost.
Current WoW is more social than Wrath, you can't auto queue into M+ like you can Wrath heroics which is why they're turning off LFD in Wrath classic
You're moronic for even trying to lump Wrath in with vanilla
People want to play Classic Vanilla WoW or at least have semi yearly fresh servers.
Retail homosexuals use this as a way to rerun the entire terrible expansion system from start to finish repeating and reliving every failure but with all the knowledge and cancerous retail community that has driven wow into the gutter.
BRAVO ADDICTS BRAVO!!! Another decade of your wasted lives stuck to that chair maybe your body will really absorb it this time.
>Classic is so bad the slightest bit of game knowledge of a PC that can maintain 60 fps trivializes it >Classicgays still pretend like it's not the game that's the issue
>Classic is so bad the slightest bit of game knowledge of a PC that can maintain 60 fps trivializes it >Classicgays still pretend like it's not the game that's the issue
Also: What is the intended solution here? Hey play classic but intentionally forget how everything works?
Drop the video game knowledge you gathered the last 15 years in general?
If you learn how to drive in Mario Kart, you can't just unlearn that and drive shitty again to have more casual fun.
the most sad part is something like wow can never happen again in todays climet beacuse the fanbase obsession with min-maxing and game devs focusing more in milking profits than creating a fun game to play.
That isn't it at all. It can't happen again because it already happened. Vanilla wow was crazy because no one knew what was going to happen. The vast majority of users had never played or seen anything like it before. The experience was most definitely about the journey. No one knew where the journey would end. Well guess what, now the whole word knows and there's absolutely nothing at the end of the journey. Other than wrecking your life. That phenomenon of the whole world playing an mmorpg for the first time can't be re created anymore than the entire world driving a car for the first time.
HighElves and Ogres
SIMPLE AS
I'm fairly certain that the only reason
Ally
>Human
>Dwarf
>Night Elf
>High Elf
Horde
>Orc
>Troll
>Tauren
>Goblin
Wasn't in cvanilla wow was because
>horde wouldn't have had an Eastern Kingdoms city (Undercity)
>Alliance would have 2 types of elves, which may throw people off.
But for the life of me I can't comprehend why
>no ogres for horde
>knockoff high elves for alliance
still exist in live.
True path would be four factions a la WC3 with Night Elves sharing one with other Kalimdor things.
>NO layers or at the very least have it be conditional based on the number of people in the zone
I deliberately chose a lower populated server to be more blizzlike and avoid streamer gays but it was still plagued by layer abuse despite layers being unnecessary in most zones
>immediately patch out and ban zoomcleaving homosexuals and exploiters instead of just slapping them on the wrist at most or letting them get away with their ruination
beyond that I can't really remember what issues I had with it. It was a blast for a few weeks until the state of modern zoomie gamers ruined it
There's no fixing the modern WoW playerbase. It was still fun for the first few months.
This. The game hasn't changed, the playerbase did.
This
All the problems have existed for entire WoW existence, but players managed to magnify them larger than ever before
>game designed for a few thousand concurrent players
>players all pile onto a few servers in fear of missing out
>wtf blizz, why are the servers such trash?
Private servers managed.
private servers have never had anywhere near the numbers of live servers
There is no fix, there isn't anything wrong with the game. The issue lies in the player base.
Were you really surprised when every single zoomer had the opportunity to play "the greatest mmo of all time at its peak" and they powerleveled through THE WHOLE GAME (In vanilla WoW 1-60 was the game, the obsession with end game content was a biproduct of expansions) just so they could group up with 39 other zoomers (who also picked mage because it was the highest dps class because the only dopamine they can squeeze out of their brains is by having the biggest number in the DPS meter) to clear content which was really just stat checks rather than actually having to learn mechanics?
It's the reason why PvP realms were so popular and why they all rolled Horde. Playing games isn't about having fun, it's about being other players which can be hard if you're a shitter, thankfully with MMOs you can literally just buy power thanks to the Chinese.
>classes are blatantly imbalanced
>leveling can be breezed through but is somehow supposed to be the main game
>content was just stat checks and didnt have real mechanics
sounds like the game is the issue
>leveling can be breezed through
According to who LOL? Compared to retail leveling could not be "breezed through" I sware you retail gays are delusional if you think this is true.
ask me how I know you never played classic, go ahead. Mages were charging at least 30-50g at the start of relaunch (roughly two wow tokens for retail gays) for a single ZF run on most servers when relaunched dropped. Take into account that if you were unlucky and needed gear for certain pre-bis items that didnt drop for you you would have to pay over and over again until you got the item you wanted to drop (then in most cases bid against people in the dungeon/raid for it). The only people that could afford it at the start of the game were either no lifing or buying gold. You make it seem like the majority of players just strolled through leveling when in actuality gearing up your character in UBRS, scholo and strat were unironically the most time consuming parts of the game.
honestly frick you I'm wasted and your post is gay
mage isn't highest dps, warriors and rogues are
I really miss playing MMOs before the playerbase became so obsessed with endgame. Especially PvP ones where there's just endless b***hing about "reee he's just stronger than me because he's been playing longer" even though it takes like 1 fricking week to reach endgame in the current MMO format. And always going on about "le content" even though they try their damnedest to skip as much as they can getting to endgame.
Also just running around the world with your friends doing quests, you were all somewhere in the whirlpool of mid-game and absolutely content.
honestly the solution is to make an MMO that plays exactly like WoW but without the endgame of WoW.
i'm talking EXACTLY like WoW, same GCD, spells, etc. no other MMO feels as good
Yep. Just remove raidlogging and replace raids with world bosses on mandatory pvp realms with forced faction queue. Squish level to 10 similar to what they did before Sneedlands, make leveling to 60 take 3 months again. Disable flying.
>WAH THIS WILL ONLY LEAD TO GUILD DRAMAS AND BOSS FIXING!
Not my problem, still 100 times better than the dead, empty zones and 0 social interactions of modern WoW. Stop playing MMOs if you don't want to socialize and make friends/enemies.
>big moronic training dummies zerged down plus you now need to poop sock or run bots to get tags on them
Yeah bro so exciting
take the UO pill, brother. Always very happy to help new players. You got offical Servers (Atlantic/Europa) and free servers (Outlands(PvP))
>Make a game
>add a priest class
>give the priest 3 specializations
>2 of them are traps and if you spec in them you won't be invited into groups.
Many such cases!
make your own group, ez
>create a game with 40 man raids
>Many of these classes have debuffs and damage over time effects which work as debuffs
>the limit of debuffs on a boss was 8 for over a year.
>if a boss already has 8 debuffs and you apply a new one, the debuff just gets pushed off and disappears.
>Did they remove the debuff limit in 2005? NO!
>They just doubled it to 16.
>there isn't anything wrong with the game.
I'm so sick of frickers who never played vanilla to claim that the game was at it's best then, or even worse, this moron take that "there isn't anything wrong with the game".
Of course there was shit wrong with the game. There was a LOT of shit wrong with the game, that's why they kept patching it.
I'm convinced that these revisionist morons who only talk about the good things of vanilla without mentioning the bad things, are the same idiots who want to go back to americas founding father days for similar asinine reasons.
>inb4 this asshat tries to convince me that playing a dot class and expecting to be able to participate in group content is a player failure as well.
>How would you have fixed it?
I would change nothing.
>Vanilla
>alive
>having any challenge
boomers unironically believe this shit too
This is the single most schizophrenic image I've seen on Ganker.
clearly you havent seen the maze wars
It's a little inaccurate since Chris was behind WoD and Legion, also the poopsocking really was in the game from Vanilla. TBC made the game more casual infact, original vanilla raiders were such no lifers some guilds unironically raided all day in work days. It was a very unhealthy environment, casual raiding in vanilla today is born from player ability and min maxing. Years ago even clearing MC took hours, some times days.
raiding was the biggest blunder of wow, together with damage meter. You cant possibly tell me that molten core is an upgrade to BRD gameplay wise
This is literally the single greatest image to illustrate the decline of WoW
>But not one where you're required to log in for 4 months ahead to finally clear a raid.
Molten core was beaten 154 days after release during vanilla. So yeah, it didn't take 4 months, it took 5.
>New game easier than old game.
You know why vanilla was difficult? A: Because nobody fully knew how half the shit worked,
B: because you were undergeared for it.
Do you think people wiped on Ragnaros because he's just SO hard with such amazing abilities as:
>knocks back
>becomes immune
>summons adds.
Wow. what a fight. Really puts the WAR in warcraft. The actual reason people wiped on Ragnaros is that bosses dropped 2 items on average, (ragnaros himself dropped 4, how generous) Meaning: The tank took harder hits, the DPS players had less fire resistance, meaning the healers had to heal more, meaning the healers ran out of mana sooners, meaning the raid wiped. There was barely any difficulty at all, it was just attrition.
And the rotations were not much more difficult either. Mage at ragnaros:
>frostbolt
>frostbolt
>frostbolt
>oom
>wand
>frostbolt
A rogue did little more than spam sinister strike and press eviscerate. You had time to chat as long as you didn't let your energy cap.
A lot of mechanically interesting fights were added with nax, but a big hurdle there was simply that many guilds were hardblocked by needing more tanks than any raid before required. And with BC PTR many didn't bother.
Wow vanilla was a joke, difficulty wise. It all came from the fact that the game just refused to give you items.
>Wow vanilla was a joke, difficulty wise. It all came from the fact that the game just refused to give you items.
WoW vanilla was difficult because most people had absolute shitbox computers, barely any mechanics were explained and people were literally using 56k modems. Half the people in the game had something like 6fps during the Ragnaros fight. The "casual" nature of WoW meant casual people were using shit like late 90s laptops to play it. It was technically a 40 man raid but in reality only 10-15 people were performing at maximum capability for most guilds. Only the poop sock guilds on each server would curate for good hardware and internet connections.
I mean sure, that was part of the reason why a lot of the more casual guilds took ages to kill bosses, But like I said Ragnaros first kill took 5 months, So clearly it was not just scrubs on laptops pulling their guild down,
The entire game was designed to be SLOW.
Jeff "Tigole" Kaplan is responsible for WoW's hyper focus on instanced content and poopsocking raiding with "GO GO GO" mentality. As to why anyone champions him is beyond me. Anyone over the age of 30 knows that him and his cronies ruined WoW's design. It wasn't until until about mid-way through WoTLK that the corpse of the game started to stink, but they decorated it with nice smelling roses (Nostalgia tripping people with Arthas) to cover up how stagnant and dead the world felt.
that gay is gone now, and retoilet is still a sweaty raiding game tho
Based
>The changes were extremely minor
Yeah like having sharding and layering and leeway was minor
>reeee sharding and layering
You fricking moron. Classic servers are MASSIVELY bigger than vanilla servers ever were. They HAD to add measures to actually keep the vanilla feel of a zone intact. To keep them even remotely playable. And even with sharding and layering the zones were just fricking FULL.
So for blizzard to not ad layering, they would have to cap the servers like vanilla was, at roughly 1.5k to 3k unique players a month. Now Classic servers are many times as big. And still, just a month after the initial classic release, many servers were fricking dead.
Do you really think, they should have added 20 times more servers that now would all be dead? Just to avoid layering?
Just to avoid something seeing enemies despawn when you get a party invite? Who the frick cares. How's that the most important feature about vanilla for people? To be LESS likely to be able to play with friends?
Sharding and layering is unironically good, and the best thing that could happen to WoW, is if Blizz fricking removed the idea of "realms" altogether and just let people move freely and play with anyone.
But then they couldn't take HORRENDOUS amounts of money to copy your character from one server to another.
servers should have had caps to not have layers, blizzard were cheap Black folk
My bro. If they had caps, you would have never gotten to play on the server you wanted to play on.
You also would have now be playing on an extremely dead server.
Look at how dead most of the servers are NOW, WITH layering. Now multiply that by 20. How is that preferable to layering?
>We want classic to be like vanilla was no changes!
>Ok but change the max capacity and increase spawn rates so it's not ass to play
???
The whole POINT was to be as close to vanilla as possible, and layered zones to stay at similar capacities to vanilla is WAY closer to the vanilla experience than just letting everyone in the same area and upping respawn rates until it becomes playable.
>The whole POINT was to be as close to vanilla as possible
Yeah and layering isn't close to Vanilla at all
>closer to the vanilla experience than just letting everyone in the same area and upping respawn rates until it becomes playable.
Sounds like your idea of the vanilla experience is an empty world. Likely you started playing in wrath. The number of players have nothing to do with the "vanilla experience". The more players the game has, the better it is.
Layering keeps a vanilla experience intact, but also allows servers to have a decent population.
>empty world
are you high? Layers can still be full and should be. I'm not saying "make a private instance for every player lol". But once a zone has hit capacity, layer that sucker.
Of course layering is more vanilla than overpopulating servers. How is that even a question?
>You are a developer
>Your task is to re-create an experience, true to the one people had on servers that had AT THE UPPER MAX 3k unique logins per month, but you need to make it available for way more people, many of which are predicted to stop playing after a while.
>You can:
A: Create a system on which tens of thousands of people are allowed to play on the same server, but implement a "mini server" system for each zone, that keeps the maximum number of people in each zone, to a number that would be realistic to an actual vanilla server.
>Or you can:
B: Let tens of thousands of players play on one server, but instead of capping the zones, you increase spawn rates to dynamically keep up with demand, altering the vanilla experience, but making it playable for way more people than ever played simultaneously in a zone during vanilla
>Or you can:
C: Just create hundreds of servers to deal with the demand, and eventually merge them when they die.
The only acceptable answer to keep the best vanilla feeling in the game is A.
If it was not for the fact that true vanilla experience was demanded, B would be acceptable.
C is always moronic.
>Layering keeps a vanilla experience intact, but also allows servers to have a decent population.
Except it doesn't. The "Vanilla experience" didn't include having your character magically teleport into a different version of the server mid combat. It didn't have people disappear in front of you while they abuse the system to farm all the mats in the area. In fact, NO DECENT GAME has anything like this moronation in it.
>But once a zone has hit capacity, layer that sucker.
There is no capacity.
btw I choose B and C because I'm not a mouthbreathing moron.
>didn't include having your character magically teleport into a different version of the server mid combat.
Should only happen if you accept party invites mid fight. If you phase during combat, a bug has happened. Just how during actual classic sometimes your mob would just lose aggro and reset. Or how sometimes your character would lie flat on the ground with no animations even when running around. (we called it surfing in our guild!).
The fact that dudes abuse phasing for farming sucks. Should have been better implemented.
But your argument that it would be truer to vanilla if they fiddled with the fricking spawnrates is just disingenuous. You are literally saying "It would be more like vanilla if they made it less like vanilla".
I even agree that the game would be better with higher spawn rates, more EXP and more item drops. I just disagree that it would be closer to vanilla because it's not.
>Should only happen if you accept party invites mid fight.
Shouldn't happen at all. Layers shouldn't exist.
The fact that dudes abuse phasing for farming sucks. Should have been better implemented.
Shouldn't have been implemented at all.
>But your argument that it would be truer to vanilla if they fiddled with the fricking spawnrates is just disingenuous. You are literally saying "It would be more like vanilla if they made it less like vanilla".
Vanilla also had variable spawn rates, you tool. SO DID CLASSIC, DESPITE THE FRICKING LAYERS. You're an ignoramus. Also, the amount of players has nothing to do with the "trueness" of vanilla.
>You fricking moron. Classic servers are MASSIVELY bigger than vanilla servers ever were.
And Nostalrius servers were bigger then Classic servers were. Nobody cared. Just increase the spawn rate, or open new servers.
Layering is just some schizo cope.
or instead of adding r*toilet features like sharting they could have simply
1. enabled dynamic respawns
2. give servers blizzlike server caps
people like this is why we can't have nice things
Imagine is wrong. WoW was always meant to be the casual version of EQ and they reached peak casualization in wotlk then immediately did a heel turn and started making the game for hardcore raiders. It's why despite being older than FFXIV WoW has no fricking content outside of raiders that get invalidated each patch and PvP, which is neglected as frick.
>MoP farms
scrapped.
>garrisons
scrapped.
>class order halls
scrapped
>battle pets
hasn't been iterated on in forever
>war tables
scrapped.
>islands expeditions
scrapped.
>flight combat
scrapped.
>Darkmoon faire
Hasn't been iterated on in forever
They can't even keep raids relevant like FFXIV can. Didn't BFA had some basic profession quests or something? I don't remember anything of the sort in Shadowlands.
Blizzard are inept motherfrickers and made the game revolve around .01% of the player base and now they've dug themselves into such a deep hole they literally cannot get out of it because the behaviors that lead them to where they're at is ingrained on such a fundamental level that it'd require a mass purge from the very top of Blizzard to fix.
It's "poopsock", not "poopsocket".
Based. Kinda wrong on few instances like Wotlk mentioning blood elves when they were released in TBC but generally speaking yes - WoW was dead with the release of Icecrown Citadel.
>one of the best raids in the entirety of WoW
>the downfall of WoW.
Nah. Second part of Wotlk is trash. Even on private servers to this day half of my guild always melts around the time we get to ToC/ICC because these raids are boring and uninspiring and because at this point the catch up system completely takes over invaliding everything but ICC and emblems of frost. Killing Arthas was hype as frick when you did it 12 years ago but now I realize how much damage it did as Blizzard ran out of ideas and stories from Warcraft 3.
I can agree that WotLk was a mixed bag.
Nax was underwhelming, but I understand that they brought it back since literally most of the wow playerbase never even cleared half of it.
ToC was one of the worst raids ever devised, and the "pvp raid" part of it was just sad when it could have been cool. It also thematically was fricking weird to hold a cool little tournament before finishing the big war.
But Ulduar was GOAT, and I think ICC was among the best raids ever as well. Specially arthas himself.
Then what most people forget: The expansion ended on Ruby Sanctum. One of the worst raids.
Wotlk PVE was trash outside of Ulduar. I think ICC is memorable because of the insane gear you could get from there but your average private WoW raiding scene ends on 25man Deathbringer Saurfang where 90% of people are only interested in DBW.
Imagine unironically believing ICC is anywhere near the top of WoW raids
Wow Raid Powerrankings:
Worst to best:
>Black Temple
>Blackrock Foundry
>Throne of Thunder
>ice Crown Citadel
>Karazhan
>Ulduar
Kara was a dogshit raid and Ulduar will be the same once nostalgia is past
Everyone on TBC dodged Kara as soon as they could because it was tedious and boring, it just looks pretty
Siege, Firelands, HFC and Nighthold blow out all the shitty classic raids without trying
>once nostalgia has past
It was over 13 years ago.
And everybody who thinks Ulduar was good hasn't touched it in 13 years
>text file lore dumps
>immersive and good
lol
What really gets me is the decline of the lore of the games. It so uninteresting by the end after they ruined everything that Warcraft 3 set up. It's just so sad because the story was actually really interesting, to have it ruined in some stupid shitty MMO is just the worst possible way to have it happen. WOTLK trailer though is amazing.
waifu dating system
I'll play wotlk classic and thats it. If they are actually dumb enough to make a cata classic that no one wants, then its over.
We all know that MoP and Cata will come.
but why though? Thats when most people quit. Maybe pandas might come. The whole reason classic exists is to kill private servers
Most people quit before Wrath was over. They had insanely low retention rates and high turnover as they burned through tens of millions of players that never hit cap
Only bad players quit in Cata
Everyone quit WoW when League of Legends released. Why spends months trying to gear up a single character when you can do it in 30 minutes again and again?
>Cata
Not happening unless they want to kill their game again.
Cata is strictly better than Wrath
>better dungeons
>no tank homosexualry in pvp
>rbgs
>proper 10m raiding
>Molten front blows AT out of the water
>healing has actual depth
>class rotations have actual depth
>archeology a fun distraction
How does this change the fact that devs already polled and stated they are doing wrath+
>decided on anything when Wrath is going to crash a month in just like TBC did because it's shallow garbage
The devs even realize Wrath is in no way like Vanilla and are trying to avoid including LFD but every casual is clamoring for it. No reason to hold back LFR at that point
>when Wrath is going to crash a month in just like TBC did because it's shallow garbage
Headcannon TBC had more players than Classic.
No it doesn't lmao
More gold buying paypigs maybe. Classic population tanked in p2 vanilla and never recovered
>Cata is strictly better than Wrath
Ah yes, so we're going down the exact same route that lead to retail. Fantastic
I love Wrath, I really do, but I can't bring myself to pay a sub for it again. I did it for Classic, I did it for like a month for TBC, but I don't think I can do it again with Wrath.
wouldnt have moved onto BC, shouldve kept it in vanilla and added onto it with new content, first patch would have been new races, then gradually adding scrapped ideas / raids from design notes made in the old days, I suppose theres still a chance of this happening after Wrath has been out for awhile because there is no way in frick they'll do Cata classic, who knows, can't say I care anymore after its been monteized with boosts, havent touched the game since the dark portal pass was a thing
No changes, like classic fricking should have been.
The changes were extremely minor and whichever ones they did do are not what made Classic shit. It was the community.
>botting completely out of control
>staff decides to devote all resources to removing your ability to type "Black person" into the chat
There's no fixing the political rot in that company and you are much better off playing private servers because apparently autistic slavs make a better blizz like experience in their basements.
remove bots and level boosts for a start
1. remove layering after day 1 when everyone is out of the starting zones
2. remove the stupid shit that emulates old internet where you miss every interrupt
3. let all party members loot quest items so you can actually group with people
4. actually ban bots
>2. remove the stupid shit that emulates old internet where you miss every interrupt
I've seen PVP players complain that its too easy to interrupt compared to the old days. As usual I come to Ganker and see people who don't play the game complain about something they are obviously dead wrong about.
>3. let all party members loot quest items so you can actually group with people
oh ok so yeah you are moronic.
>remove the stupid shit that emulates old internet where you miss every interrupt
I still cant believe they kept THAT in, but also added layering and then they say "no changes, just how you wanted"
What fricking moron wants literal delay that was only in the game because the technology wasnt as good back then?
>let all party members loot quest items so you can actually group with people
This should have also been in the game from the start. I cant wrap my head around the logic of items not being shared in the party.
Classic+ instead of existing expansions. Use an OSRS gearing system where new BiS updates are uncommon and there is no catch up gear.
>remove layers
>lock servers past ~3k players
>make premades match other premades in bgs
>make the mage boosting changes before it got out of hand
>stay in vanilla and add classic+ content (lol)
>ban gdkp
this being said there's not really fixing classic servers of mmos in the age of discord and streaming.
just prevent mage boosting
>uninstall
>download pserver
fixed!
Classic is/was a solved game.
>you have to get all the worldbuffs
>you have to get minmaxed proffs
>you have to farm gazillion gold for consumables every week
>you have to form minmaxed setup
>you have to abuse battle chickens
>you have to speed level with guideline addons
>you have to boost/use boost
>you have to buy gold for real money
>you have to read guides/minmax strats on the internet, depriving you of all the fun of self-exploring
>you have to seal twist
>you have to downrank heals
And if you want to walk around the world, greet people who say "hello" back, adventure together, overcome great challenges (other than defeating the roster boss), have fun and feel exhilarated - forget about that. Classic is empty for you.
Part of me wants to resub and play Classic era to frick around in but the servers are basically dead now, SoM is already wrapping up and aslo frick giving money to blizz.
>tfw started a SoM the other day because i wanted to level something
>4 players on at all times
>10 max
I might have come back if they made classic f2p as a "get them kids hooked early" to live, but nah, I'm not paying 15 bucks a month to play content I've already lived trough for nostalgia sake.
SoM was doomed from the start. What fricking moron releases pvp ranked gear before BWL. Literally everyone was just grinding bgs and classic pvp ranking is fricking terrible. It causes the majority of people who even try it to burn out and never come back because of the decay system.
It was worse than just that, after the 1st two weeks the people that did enough pvp to rank shot up exponentially while other people were still leveling their main characters. My guild had people that were able to buy the full blue set at the start of the 3rd week of SoM because of the way they changed the decay of the pvp system wanting to incentivize pvp gearing. Had one guy go hard and had warlord gear before a month went by maybe sooner memory is kinda fuzzy. Early on the fewer people in the pool meant you could go from no rank to rank 6 the 1st week with marginal pvping in the open world and bg's and then rank 10 the second it was absurd early on. Blizzard has lil to no idea what they're doing.
Add modern spells and add dungeon finder.
It's almost perfect as it is but a lot of specs aren't viable and rotations consist of two or three buttons. Hell if you're a mage it's one. Modern wow rotations are fun and high apm.
Vanilla with a little qol would be fricking kino. I hope they just go to lich king and then do vanilla reimagined or something. Ascension private server is fricking awesome with the enchants and seasonal game modes to be honest. Blizzard would make a killing doing that.
It was pretty good overall, tbh. Some things, however:
1. Nuke all bots. No exceptions
2. Remove dungeon boosting (many ways)
3. Some balance changes to avoid stacking yellows and browns
I'm sure there's one or two things I'm missing, but those are what come to mind.
ban addons
Delete all servers for retail and classic then leak the source code for both. Only way to fix it, is to destroy it.
Simple. Deal with bots. Ban mage boosters. Ban gdkp and enforce the rules.
Announce that saying the N-word isn't a bannable offense or worthy of suspension then catalogue everyone who spammed it more than 100 times the 1st hour and make sure they stay banned for life. Community is instantly cleansed of shit.
ADDED MORE CONTENT IN THE STYLE OF CLASSIC LIKE OSRS AND MADE A HARD LEVEL CAP OF 60 AND ITEMS DETERMINE ENDGAME BUILDS
Only change I would've made initially would've been to block addons.
Then after it died off in 3-4 months make a proper classic+ by adding new zones, new content to level throguh, new racea, classes, modernizing gameplay so it's not so simplistic but trying to keep the great balance the game has (in classic if you don't pay attention, you die and most fights are overall challenging), make tanking/healing viable DPS when soloing
Remove world buffs and release BG's at the same time as the honor system. World buffs made raiding un fun for the veterans, getting raped for honor by autistic rankers while levelling killed newbies interest, those two things alone were basically a death blow to the game. I earnestly believe if you changed those two things classic would've been much more alive for much longer.
Ban chink IP adresses
Make it enjoyable:
>Boost drop rates
2 drops for a 40 man raid is unacceptable
>Allow dungeon finder
Only idiots believe DF destroyed "server community", what destroyed Server community was that the game ballooned to 12 million players, and you can't know everyone in a game like that.
The most popular vanilla servers had 3k unique players a month, only few of them always active. After the explosion of BC and LK, that was just not possible any more.
Also: All not having LFG having does, is waste players time. Who the frick enjoys spending 2 hours in a main city spamming chat for a level 20 dungeon?
That's the most you can do while keeping the "spirit" of vanilla.
nerf instance xp so people stop living in them from 30 to 60
Vanilla WoW Classic
1. Vanilla-like server population caps, dynamic respawns and a 100% temporary increase for the server population the first few months of the release and then toning back to normal as tourists left
2. Announce ahead of time that dead/dying servers would be merged with other servers and do it when it actually happens
3. Faction queues if the population of one faction exceeds 55% on PvP servers
4. No paid faction transfers at all
5. Actually hire GMs to police the game and permanently ban people who participate in RMT at first offense
6. Disallow ban evasion by making a new account - if you're banned, you're banned, you don't get to come back
7. Only allow one account per person to be logged on at the same time
8. Patch progression instead of content progression, the game doesn't start at 1.12 balance with everything past Ony/MC locked away, it starts at 1.1 balance
9. Battlegrounds are server-specific, no cross-server features at all
10. Chronoboom from day one, and also make it store the Silithyst buff
TBC WoW Classic
1. Halve MH trash
2. Personal loot
3. Dual spec
4. Dungeon Finder
5. Raid Finder (no Raid Finder difficulty, it's still the same difficulty as normal)
6. Boss loot lockout as opposed to raid ID lockout
7. Make phases 2, 3, 4, and 5 all last three months longer
8. Unlock cross-server features for arena, battlegrounds, and dungeon/raid finder
9. No arena rating requirement for any gear
>1) Actually ban bots
>2) Don't introduce 1.20 talents on pre.1.20 content.
>3) Quickly remove layering and if possible only have it in the starting zones
I also really like this idea:
>1. Vanilla-like server population caps, dynamic respawns and a 100% temporary
The game refuses to launch if discord is installed on your computer.
>have to go back to teamspeak
uhhh its the same shit except more inconvenient
world buffs were the best thing about classic wow and no one who complains about them should have their opinion heard
>haha big number makes already piss easy raid go brrr
play retail you autistic homosexual.
to play you must swallow a cyanide capsule that will open if you die in-game. only pvp servers.
I don't think it could be fixed other than a complete overhaul of the game to no longer make it into a "solved" game. A big part of vanilla was the sense of wonder at the unknown and that was never going to still be there.
they did that, DOA, don't quit your day job
Sounds like too little too late then. But that phrase sums up classic in general
SOM was not a "complete overhaul" of the game - it was an half-ass attempt at retaining people who want vanilla and not TBC after they made people pay for character cloning and that backfired massively because no one wanted to pay for that shit
none of that server transfer bullshit that killed 25 servers in tbc
Rebalance it to my taste.
>Season 1: Season of Mastery
Buff shitty specs and classes like paladins and boomkins so they can actually contribute overall to the group instead of just a fringe buff
>Season 2: Season of the Crusade
Add draenei and Belfs to classic, keep the changes from the past season
>Season 3: Season of Death
Add death knights to classic
>Start from 1.1 and patch up once every 2 months
No changes
Progressive patch releases
At the end of the final phase Kazzak invades and destroys everything and the server resets to phase 1.
Just make it the same as Nostalrius basically
Release battlegrounds with the honour system simultaneously
That'd stop a lot of PVP servers becoming one sided PVE servers
layering for only starter zones/ world buffs removed/fixing broken shit that if happened back then would have been fixed ie mages pulling all of dungeons solo/dungeon quest reseting addons for powerleveling
only new thing needed would be a prestige system since mmos are not "new" anymore there wont be waves of new players
Remove PvP entirely obviously.
Nah just remove honor. The first phase before they introduced honor had the perfect amount of pvp. After honor came in it just turned into roving death squads of honor farmers, and then BGs removed any interest in world pvp entirely.
BGs and honor were unironically the reason World PvP even happened.
Ironically BGs were a HUGE boost to World PvP, and if you played vanilla, or knew anyone who grinded for High Warlord, you would have known that.
The problem with vanilla BGs was that they were super long, and hard to get into.
Why do you think so much world PvP happened around Hillsbrad Foothills? For the scenery? Nah, it was because you had to physically move to the BG to queue, and Hillsbrad was were you queued.
But if you wanted your PvP rank, you needed honor kills. And invites into BGs could unironically take hours. So what's a PvPgay to do? Run around the zone and start killing people for HKs.
Most of the people doing open world PvP in Hillsbrad and such didn't actually want to do world PvP. They wanted to play BGs, but the system was so bad, the game forced them to duke it out in the world somewhere. PvE players hated it, PvP players didn't like it because it was less efficent than a BG, only a few gays who couldn't hack it in PvP enjoyed ganking low levels just to be a dick.
That's why every attempt by blizz to bring back world PvP flopped horribly. Because it's one of these things people remember as "cool" that actually just happened because other shit sucked so bad.
Like how idiots think dungeon finder ruined the game, when dungeon finder might unironically be the best thing to ever happen to wow.
>BGs and honor were unironically the reason World PvP even happened.
Nah, world pvp felt spontaneous and natural before honor was introduced. Because they did it for fun.
That was a REAL short time from November 2004 to April 2005. People did some PvP before then, here and there. Sure. But as far as I remember, the BIG OUTBREAK of World PvP, was with the introduction of Honor, and then with the introduction of Battlegrounds, it became concentrated to specific areas near the BG Signup.
I mean most people who talk fondly about their open world PvP exploits, have Hillsbrad stories. There's a reason for that.
I'm talking about Classic, dumdum
>Like how idiots think dungeon finder ruined the game, when dungeon finder might unironically be the best thing to ever happen to wow.
t. nublizz dev wondering why the game is dying
It's a true statement.
Most people think the LFG tool killed community, because it coincided with the "death" of community around WotLK.
But the true death of the community was that server that before had around a thousand to at max 3 thousand unique logins per month, now has WAY fricking more, since the game ballooned to 12mil subscriptions. And you can't have community, as well as so many millions of players.
So LFG became the scapegoat for community death.
But as someone who did many PUG dungeons during vanilla and TBC, I can tell you: There was no meaningful difference between a PUG and and an LFG run. All it was, was that the PUG could take hours to get together and move to the dungeon. You rarely, if ever stayed friends with the people in the group, and even multiple runs only happened occasionally. usually one or more people had to go and it fell apart.
Specially during TBC, you at best befriended tanks and healers to quicker find groups, something that still happened during LFG, because queue times for DPS could be truly ass.
All in all, I honestly see no evidence that LFG had a noticeable negative effect on the game. Hell, it likely resulted in me playing with a lot more different people and talking to them, than I ever did pre lfg.
>All in all, I honestly see no evidence that LFG had a noticeable negative effect on the game.
Yeah because pressing a button and being put in a queue to be grouped with people from other servers and then teleported to the dungeon so that
a) you have no actual social interaction with other people
and
b) you have no interaction with the game world
just so you can sit around farming <bigger ilvl item> in the capital HAD NO NOTICEABLE NEGATIVE EFFECT ON THE GAME...
except the game bleeding subs for the rest of time after it was introduced.
>except the game bleeding subs for the rest of time after it was introduced.
You can't prove that LFG caused this.
Correlation does not imply causation.
>You can't prove that LFG caused this.
Don't care israelite we all know it's true
If you want new players to do dungeons just add tutorials
True, but before LFG there were a lot of never/more casual players who had never experienced parties or dungeons because it seemed like too much work to get started when instead you could spend that time questing and leveling normally. Now I'm not saying that games should be dumbed down for casuals, but you have to admit there was a bit of an entry barrier on the original dungeons.
Plus with LFG I can level my healer faster without having to constantly switch specs for leveling
I think the introduction of LFG was just a part of a larger shift towards dungeons and farming runs and eventually raids as a whole. A lot of players got fed up when they put most of their content focus on creating new dungeons then finding ways to require players to run them multiple times instead of working on improving the game as a whole. Players like me who enjoyed questing and story more than endlessly farming dungeons all started leaving the game.
LFG was a symptom of the problem, but not the cause.
>and then teleported to the dungeon
That didn't even happen until a bit later
>a) you have no actual social interaction with other people
I interacted with people in LFG about the same amount as I did with people in PUGs.
In pugs at best the extra interaction is going: "I can't find a healer in chat. Do you know anyone?" Then going back to not caring about your PUG until the group is full and then whining that one gay is on the wrong continent.
>b) you have no interaction with the game world
Again, at first you had to physically move to the dungeon. Kinda like the Mythic + group tool later.
But also:
>before group finder:
>Stand in Shatt as a priest
>Spam "Shadow Priest looking for heroic Shadowlabs XXX+ shadow damage!"
>get whisper: "Heal?"
>repeat for an hour
>finally find someone
>have to still find a tank
>after close to 2 hours move to the dungeon
>finish it, finally be done.
After lfg:
>get to actually play the game while looking for a group
>can run 5 dungeons in the time it took to run one before
>Means get to chat and actually play the game with 5 times more people
>somehow this makes it less social.
All you gays always says is how it makes it "less social". And I'm starting to think that it's just because nobody wanted to queue with you after the dungeon.
Because I've made many more friends during WotLK LFG than classic and TBC chat spam. You can still talk to your group, befriend them, add them to your friends list and queue and play with them. And people do that.
Dumbasses have been parroting
>group finder killed the community xD
for years at this point when the thing responsible since day 1 has been cross-server play.
grouping kept to a small pool of people that you gradually get to know is how communities get made, it doesn't matter if it's through trade chat or some tool. get randomly matched with 4 people you'll never see again kills it completely
>Like how idiots think dungeon finder ruined the game, when dungeon finder might unironically be the best thing to ever happen to wow.
You're going to trigger so many idiots with that statement lmao
You never played the game.
>BGs and honor were unironically the reason World PvP even happened.
Incorrect. WPvP happened before honor and BGs were added to the game, just for the sake of it. I would know because I was there. People liked the for their novelty despite there being no rewards for it. Naturally something like that wouldn't last forever though.
>Ironically BGs were a HUGE boost to World PvP
The opposite of this is true, and it's important to separate BGs from the honor system. Honor system came first, BGs came in the patch after.
>Why do you think so much world PvP happened around Hillsbrad Foothills?
It was a convenient location with well-placed graveyards for the purpose, and a contested zone where leveling horde and alliance would naturally meet which would turn into larger skirmishes. It has absolutely nothing to do with BGs like you're saying, because if you were there, you'd know that SS-TM fights were largely isolated to a single patch - the one with honor system but no BGs.
BGs killed these for the most part. It's not as if everyone on the server had long queues and would be forced to wait an hour in the queue. The minority faction would have fast queues (at non dead hours), while the majority had longer ones. They would have no large gatherings to fight in the world. On more balanced servers you had moderate queues, and in one of these I recall some small skirmishes happening at Ashenvale-Barrens area during queues. TM-SS is quite far removed from AV queue and have nothing to do with it.
On top of all that, a couple patches later you just queued from the capital.
The killing people for honor was rarer in actual vanilla, because honor grinding was less optimized and tryhard. I ranked to 11 in vanilla, never had a need for that. Just the usual premades, hit standing 2 at best at which point the people going for 14 were telling me to slow down. What you're talking about was mostly a classic phenomenon. Honor released before BGs, big raids were inefficient for honor, so you had to go hunting all day. And even with BGs, hordes had such long queues they just camped FPs during queues. This wasn't a thing in vanilla, because the game was less solved, less optimized.
Honor system also included something that stopped people almost entirely from city raids, and large WPvP in general - dishonorable kills. These weren't in right away, but were added in the BG patch. No one farming for honor would dare be part of a raid that took close a town, because there always was the risk that someone would kill a civilian and cost them a shitton of ranking.
>That's why every attempt by blizz to bring back world PvP flopped horribly. Because it's one of these things people remember as "cool" that actually just happened because other shit sucked so bad.
This isn't entirely wrong. Like I mentioned earlier, the large scale WPvP was mainly done out of novelty, but the way blizz tried to implement new forms of wpvp (sand, towers) was just horrible. The objectives were irrelevant, there was no need to compete over them, so no one had a reason to care. Thorium veins would result in more wpvp than those.
>Like how idiots think dungeon finder ruined the game, when dungeon finder might unironically be the best thing to ever happen to wow.
I mean if you want to play an mmo like a single player game, that's true.
All PvP in WoW is pointless. The game is about questing and raids.
Not making daily chores mandatory to keep up with top tier raiding. As soon as the game became a second job, I quit. Which is a shame because I still miss it.
Disregard, I'm a gay and didn't notice this was about Classic. My statement was about retail around the time of Legion.
Wiped the internet of all game knowledge, wikis, videos, etc. other than a 2006 copy of Thottbot.
Do you also never watch movies and tv that you've seen before?
Of course, and I loved classic.
But I had more fun when everybody didn't immediately look up everything and had all the best stuff all the time.
I do, but the experience is undeniably different from the first time. I enjoyed Classic, but I just would have enjoyed it significantly more without the "meta is dogma" mentality being normalized by the player base (a problem which is certainly not exclusive to WoW and is why I generally dislike multiplayer games these days).
hahahahaha
he missed it
he didn't play classic wow relaunch
omggggggggggggg
he thought it wouldnt be shit and he sat it out
LOL
he didn't know it was the last opportunity to ever enjoy an MMO in his lifetime and he missed it LOL
mfw you're talking about me
a-at least I can look forward to Everlook!
frick you
>Classic WoW relaunch
>MMO community
I love quite literally all but a few servers all instantly dying on launch cause literally everyone and their mother dogpiled Horde, and were so autismal they actively destroyed servers. The fact that Blizzard bailed them out of their own idiocy will always anger me.
>only pvp servers were active
>pve servers had a bunch of allicucks
>came out the same time as endwalker
Riot's MMO is gonna murder all records and you know it
I miss when people were shit at the game.
Fricking everybody had no problem clearing all the raid content and shit now.
fat goblin asses
Remove gold from the game, or make it BoP.
I would make an entire 2k letter limit letter but it'll never change the fact that Blizzard failed classic and allowed it to immediately devolve into a reflection of retail.
It was originally meant to be for people who wanted to experience vanilla as it was - but these people were overwhelmed by retail tourists who decided to stick around and immediately turned into a P2W fiesta with Blizzard's consent and Blizzard immediately capitalized on it with TBC pre-orders and now wotlk pre-order.
Classic is dead. Retail is dead. Blizzard only wants to milk as much money on the short-term as possible. Move on
I think the biggest problem is that vanilla WoW was designed for it's time, and for gamers at the time it was pretty good. Then almost two decades later they decide to release the same game in a very different gaming generation and act all confused about why it isn't a huge success. All that happened was that the original WoW players played for a few months for that nostalgia, while modern gamers played like a month and then quit because they were expecting the same modern game just with maybe older graphics. Basically nobody was happy.
Ban the bots. I don't know how this is so complex of an idea, just actually ban the bots
classic+ should have been the main goal.
Frick #nochanges sweaties. All they want to do is emulate nostalrius with all its flaws and exploits. What a terrible community classic is.
>Frick #nochanges sweaties. All they want to do is emulate nostalrius with all its flaws and exploits.
No they just want to be able to play the fricking game the Blizzard just deleted. They don't want retail, they don't want some gay expansion that you can go to in retail anyway, they don't want NuBlizzard's attempt at "improving" vanilla, THEY JUST WANT THE FRICKING GAME THEY PAID FOR 15 YEARS AGO THAT THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO ACCESS ANYMORE
>Frick #nochanges sweaties
Play a different game homosexual, if you need the game to be made easier because you can't adapt to the difficulty than frick off.
it's the #nochanges people who want an easy game because they have played it countless times on private servers. You are not fooling anyone sweatie. The sweaty fears new content because they fear being exposed.
Only an Idiot with rose tinted glasses could not admit the flaws vanilla had:
>stunlocks pre diminishing returns
There's famous videos of rogues with grey level 1 daggers, stunlocking level 60 characters and killing them, without them having a chance to do anything.
>8 debuff limit on a 40 man boss
>2 item drop for 40 man raid
>Gearing was a joke,specially during leveling with dumb stats, and no spellpower for casters
>https://classicdb.ch/?item=14551 this random ass mail item, being one of the best warrior items in the game
>Fricking plainswalking
>BG queue times
>class balance was a fricking joke
>Most classes had only 1 spec out of three that was really viable. (some exceptions, some situational stuff)
>Mage instakill pvp builds
>Insanely high cooldowns on some skills like lay on hands
>Leveling was clearly designed for DPS specs, leveling a tank or healer was hell, yet kinda needed for a lot of dungeons while leveling.
>spamming low rank spells, specially heals is way better value than using your highest ranked spell.
>Having to click "Shoot" on a wand after every attack
>If you didn't know every flight path on the way to your destination you couldn't taxi there.
>Macros being so powerful, anyone who knew anything about writing them could make their entire class into a single optimized macro.
>This included at one point (before weapon swapping introduced a global cooldown), creating macros to swap to the highest dmg weapon you own, activating a weapon dmg based skill, and then swapping back to your regular weapons.
Anybody who says Vanilla was perfect either hadn't played vanilla enough, or just has very. VERY low standards.
>stunlocks pre diminishing returns
Diminishing returns were a thing since beta. CS and KS were separate and stayed separate (I don't know or care about cata+ shit).
>8 debuff limit on a 40 man boss
Was 16 for the most part but still not good design.
>Gearing was a joke,specially during leveling with dumb stats, and no spellpower for casters
Intended and unironically not bad design. The goal was "make everything" to give players options and figure out what's good
>this random ass mail item, being one of the best warrior items in the game
Unironically good design (see above), because people didn't even realize how good they were for the entirety of vanilla.
>Fricking plainswalking
??
>Most classes had only 1 spec out of three that was really viable. (some exceptions, some situational stuff)
It's harder to think of of classes with only 1 viable spec, unless you limit them by purpose, ie. "only 1 viable spec for raids", "only 1 viable spec for pvp", "only 1 viable spec for leveling".
>Mage instakill pvp builds
Always a meme and not good.
>Insanely high cooldowns on some skills like lay on hands
Irrelevant.
>Leveling was clearly designed for DPS specs, leveling a tank or healer was hell, yet kinda needed for a lot of dungeons while leveling.
Literally no one leveled with healing/tank spec because you could tank/heal dungeons with a dps spec
>spamming low rank spells, specially heals is way better value than using your highest ranked spell.
Added depth to healing, as you'd have to pick what rank is best in what context.
>Having to click "Shoot" on a wand after every attack
I forgot what patch in vanilla changed this, but it was horrible before.
>Diminishing returns were a thing since beta.
Fear and sap could still be done indefinetly, and rogues could stunlock forever.
Was 8 until 1.7 which is pretty long. In september 2005.
>to give players options and figure out what's good
Some items just were never good, would never be good. They clearly had just no idea what they were doing.
>??
https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Plainsrunning
My bad, my magic infested brain changed plainsrunning to plainswalking.
>Always a meme and not good.
Doesn't change the fact that sometimes you would just get one-shot.
>Irrelevant.
Very relevant. Because insanely high cooldowns for certain skills means you need to co-ordinate your group to only use certain spells every Xth attempt at a boss, or else you would gimp your power. That's bad design.
Fun fact tho: When WotLK Naxx was in beta, if you had some T3, combined it with some T7, and I think a talent (and maybe a glyph?) you could have lay on hands with no cooldown, and just spam full heals on anybody.
>Literally no one
Except all the people who did. And there were plenty. Way later, people who had experience KNEW not to level as a tank or healer because it was a trap, but a LOT of people playing their first character did, and it should not have been a trap.
>as you'd have to pick what rank is best in what context.
It should have never been a thing, the highest rank should always be the only viable rank. If you need to switch to less / more effective heals, that's what greater/lesser/quick heal is for, not ranks.
Also: Mages should not be able to kite melee classes forever with level 1 frostbolts.
But en large, I can see you can agree with me on how some vanilla shit was absolutely horrible, and thus the idea that "Vanilla was perf. don't change a thing" is silly.
I think for instance we can both agree vanilla would be better if Debuffs were unlimited. I'd also ad "Naxxramas needing way more tanks than any raid before" to the list of dumb decisions.
>Fear and sap could still be done indefinetly
Incorrect. Both had diminishing returns since beta. Only difference was that that vanilla used heartbeat resists while TBC+ introduced a max duration (12s, then 10s). This meant that your sap could possibly break after 5 seconds, or after 20 seconds.
>rogues could stunlock forever
Incorrect. Long stunlocking was heavily reliant on blind, of which you had 2 with prep. CS->KS->blind->sap->CS->KS->blind->sap->CS->KS. After honor system and the introduction of pvp trinkets, almost every class could break out of it. Warrior (pvp trinket), paladin (pvp trinket), hunter (pvp trinket), shaman (pvp trinket), druid (pvp trinket, also only possible if stuck in caster form), mage (blink, ice block), priest (pvp trinket). Only other rogues had no counter, and technically warlocks if they didn't have succubus up. And after ZG and LAP everyone could counter it.
>They clearly had just no idea what they were doing.
It was an intended design decision like I mentioned, Kevin Jordan has talked about it in some videos. At least it's better than the current design in many things, where everything you get has the same stats, just with bigger numbers. Items like that can lead to unusual things, and they can also make the better items feel more impactful and nicer to get.
>plainsrunning
I don't know why something that was a thing in beta for a bit is relevant.
>Doesn't change the fact that sometimes you would just get one-shot.
Not much different from getting gcd'd by a rogue as a mage because you figured stamina was useless.
>Because insanely high cooldowns for certain skills means you need to co-ordinate your group to only use certain spells every Xth attempt at a boss, or else you would gimp your power. That's bad design.
Having to coordinate is bad? It's just additional depth, adding meaningful decisions. Is it worth using a combat res now? Is the fight going good enough now that we can get the kill if we use it but would likely fail without it? This isn't bad design, but modern game design with its "everything is a level playing field where everyone has access to everything every time" has rotted your brain.
>Except all the people who did.
And they always had the option to change it. You're not forced to stay the same spec for the entirety of leveling. You have the freedom to experiment. You could level with a friend, you could keep running dungeons all the time. And the goal of the game isn't to hit 60 as fast as you can. Leveling is part of the game. This one reeks of modern game design considerations again.
>If you need to switch to less / more effective heals, that's what greater/lesser/quick heal is for, not ranks.
I appreciate the added depth and would've killed myself if the only option for healing was that. And it was another thing that wasn't explicitly designed, but simply figured out by players. I heavily appreciate those.
>But en large, I can see you can agree with me on how some vanilla shit was absolutely horrible
There were many things that were objectively bad then and fixed in later patches, things that were bad due to technical limitations (debuff limit), and things that are bad now because the game is played differently. The overall design, however, was great, and listening to the community for changes leads to retail.
>Having to coordinate is bad? It's just additional depth
Actually it removes depth, as now you have to fight a lot of fights without all of your abilities, and only say, one fight each hour you can use everything you have.
What you're doing is removing the consideration of when to use an ability, which generally reduces depth. Just being able to use an ability doesn't add depth, it requires that there's an actual decision to be made. Now your combat res turns from "do we use it this time" to "use it immediately because there's no downside" (disregarding the choice of who you use it on, which applies in both cases).
You can still still have consideration of when to use an ability by give it a cooldown long enough to be only usable once per fight. By making it a 1h cooldown you serve no purpose other than to gimp a majority of the fights.
That's why eventually all cooldowns got changed to be bound to combat status.
I mean frick, you could say the same about 8 max debuffs, but there you would agree it's moronic: "Making it a maximum of 8 debuffs, really forces you to think which debuffs you should apply on a boss". Technically sure, but you have more overall depth if you remove this limit and let everyone use their full toolkit.
All these were good changes:
>cooldowns don't last into other combats
>remove spell ranks
Btw I was a shadow priest, I benefited for a long time from rank 1 spell blackout proccs, so it's not like I just hate what others have.
>remove skill trees
>remove debuff caps
>adding more drops to bosses
>dungeon finder.
Probably more good stuff in there.
>That's why eventually all cooldowns got changed to be bound to combat status.
And while doing this they were also removing everything potentially unique and fun, in order to turn fights as static as possible. Everything should be fair. This is very different from vanilla design, where various unique items, buffs, etc could play a significant role in various situations. Engineering in general describes this very well. It wasn't necessarily fair, and most importantly, it's not supposed to be fair all the time. That's part of the charm. The only problem is that in the current climate, whatever is even a little unfair becomes the meta. Still, I'm utterly disgusted by design decisions that attempt to maximize fairness, as that generally results in homogenization.
>dungeon finder
Does nothing but harm, especially when combined with cross realm functionality and teleportation.
People require a reason and time to socialize. Some are more talkative than others, and require almost nothing to talk to strangers. Most aren't exactly like this, and require some sort of push. Manually having to create groups, having to actually talk to people to join them (even if it's just "inv") is part of this. Creating the group itself is also a topic of conversation, which makes socializing easier. What do we need, what can you do, why does no one want to do lbrs, etc. They're minor things by themselves, but significant as a whole. People also need the opportunity and time to talk, and actually traveling to the dungeon is a part of this. It's a tedious task where there's not much to do, but that's why it's a good time to socialize. Very different from appearing in the dungeon with 4 strangers, pulling stuff left and right and being too busy playing the game to talk.
This is the short version because I ran out of room and can't be bothered with multiple posts.
Read trough this thread, I've explained at length while dungeon finder has become the bogyman that killed socialization, when that just clearly isn't true.
But also: You can chat just as much with a dungeon finder group, as you can with a PUG. Usually it's not at all, sometimes it's a bit when something wild happens. Sometimes some people are just chatty.
You can add these people as friends and queue with them. Dungeon finder didn't remove a social aspect of the game, it enhanced it. You get together with more people, and quicker.
All it removed was standing in a city, spamming chat to get people together instead of playing the game.
>You can chat just as much with a dungeon finder group, as you can with a PUG
This is the moronic argument everyone uses and it entirely ignores when and why people chat, and I already explained why briefly. I can't be bothered getting into this topic ore so than this, because I could write an essay on it and have talked about it several times over the years here, so I'd only be repeating myself yet again.
My man. You are delusional if you think people chatted in groups pre dungeon finder because the game had a neat social aspect. People were annoyed and bored out of their mind because it took an hour to get a group for 20 minutes of content together.
That's not a good point for the game: "Welp, the shit is so slow and bad that you can make friends with the other idiots who are waiting".
The TRUE reason social aspect died is because the game went to 12 million players with servers full of tens of thousands of people. Not because getting into dungeons got easier. People still chatted with their dungeon finder group.
You just WANT dungeon finder to be the bad guy, BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR IT BEING AT FAULT AT ALL.
Dungeon finder necessitates shitty dungeon design with 0 challenge that plagued Wrath, MoP and WoD pre mythic dungeons and why Cata's dungeons got so much push back
No challenge means easy to turn off your brain and not talk
Removing Dungeon Finder doesnt instantly make the dungeons good, as Wrath will clearly have shit dungeons with or without it, but removing dungeon finder is a necessary step to create good dungeons
>wrath dungeons
>being mechanically simpler than vanilla and BC
Vanilla had exactly zero mechanics, BC was simple as shit too. The only reason people died in BC dungeons was because Heroics were HEAVILY overtuned.
If you think Vanilla and BC dungeons were more complex than wrath and after dungeons you TRULY are delusional.
Vanilla and TBC had fears that could wipe which is 1 mechanic more than the literal 0 in Wrath
Obviously every (good) dungeon after Wrath was far more complex but we saw how badly that played out in Cata LFD
I kinda like Classic solely because it's fun to go back to a time when getting your mount was a big deal, not just something that happened 20 minutes into a new character. Other than that the entire community is garbage
Outlaw is fixed, it's going to be the most fun spec in the game, and even got a raid buff. It has 32 buttons from just baseline + talents that have in combat uses.
I would have added in the Chronoboon at the beginning of the game instead of in the last week before TBC.
>Chronoboon
lmao
such a dumb band aid solution to something that wasn't even really a problem
If you think the community figuring out how to optimise the game 15 years after it was released is bad, you might be a communist. If you really think it was so bad that it needed to be "fixed"...
...all they had to do was make world buffs run out while logged out.
>such a dumb band aid solution to something that wasn't even really a problem
Yes I enjoy raidlogging my main for 6 out of 7 days to preserve raid buffs that we need to schedule throughout the week in order to maximize uptime, only for some moron to purge them in town or at the instance portal, or some other moron to frick up in Naxx and wipe us removing all buffs from the 39 other players. High quality MMO gameplay.
>Yes I enjoy raidlogging my main for 6 out of 7 days to preserve raid buffs that we need to schedule throughout the week in order to maximize uptime, only for some moron to purge them in town or at the instance portal, or some other moron to frick up in Naxx and wipe us removing all buffs from the 39 other players. High quality MMO gameplay.
Yeah if only you could play on a pve server where inconveniences to your work schedu- I mean raid schedule could be avoided along with the other 50% of people in the game. I mean who'd want to play an MMO with MMO features right?
The only populated OCE servers are PVP.
>pays to not play the game so that he can skip through the raid as fast as possible
Makes you wonder why you play it in the first place
Because we are top 5 region and mostly IRL friends.
to get his name on a database on a website no one outside those who do the same thing care about.
yo homo, I know you were too much of a casual to play classic but full world buffs were not mandatory to raid besides naxx and literally no one raid logged their mains until they had at least 10,000g or more and their epic mount / max professions.
>only for some moron to purge them in town or at the instance portal, or some other moron to frick up in Naxx and wipe us removing all buffs from the 39 other players. High quality MMO gameplay.
Don't play on a PVP server than you fricking homosexual
Literally was PVP on a PVP server and I would not get rid of it for anything. Finding spots for summoners to get our raiders, stealing warchiefs, raping griefers after raid, going with massive groups to the island and getting into fights over who's going to drop heart was so fricking great. Operating in enemy territory to snag DMF once a month was kino. We'd send a raid group into Blackrock Mountain with back up from another two guild's raid groups to fight other raids/griefers off and then do the same for them on their raid days. By far the most massive player interactions I've seen in videogames in probably decades and it was awesome everytime. Anybody who didn't like world buffs is a homosexual.
Not even mentioning the highs and lows of raiding with world buffs, shredding everything at top speed for our first sub-hour AQ40 and Naxx was a high I will never forget and the prospect of losing your buffs because you or someone else fricks something up keeps you on the edge the whole time.
Peak WoW, better than retail anyday of the week, and even better than Vanilla. My nostalgia can eat a dick there was nothing like this back then.
One of the best parts of classic was killing (not just purging, that's for gays) people with wbuffs. Even better if you got to listen to their salt after from their alt account or on the server discord.
World buff bullshit should have been patched day 1. Why blizzard let that autism live is beyond me because it only killed interest.
> hardware ban or imprison all gold buyers
> hardware ban or imprison all gold sellers
> enforce a relatively balanced faction ratio
> ban GDKPs and SRs - only allowed to use need vs greed or round robin loot
> shut down wowhead
> shut down warcraftlogs
> fire everyone with colored hair
> only hire giganerds and gigageeks
> undo all the political correctness updates
> remove flying
>> hardware ban or imprison all gold buyers
>> hardware ban or imprison all gold sellers
>> enforce a relatively balanced faction ratio
Good.
>>ban GDKPs and SRs - only allowed to use need vs greed or round robin loot
moron move
Delist it from twitch (and youtube, but that's not possible)
Monetizing gameplay completely corrupts the experience. It incentivizes people to share information for money instead of keep it to themselves for in-game prestige. Information sharing leads to bad players trying to metagame, which was the worst thing about classic.
But what I really want to play is classic with a decent endgame (not raiding) and some small class improvements. Progressively challenging 5-mans with juiced up crafting would work fine. Add a better PvP system suited to the open world and not bgs or arenas.
It would have been perfect if they just moderated their fricking game and got rid of the botters and gold sellers and especially the gold buyers. I would have preferred they stuck with nochanges too, but whatever. I could take or leave most of the shit fricked with.
spoilertext is the most annoying part of this website, you irritating people
>exp significantly diminished if a level 60 is in group
>ban bots on sight rather than in waves after their 6 month resub kicks in
>don't offer bots a boost for extra money
>disable world buffs in instances
>ban DBM and weakauras
I'm just tired of these people:
>"It's simple, here's how they fix Classic and make it like the good ol' days"
>[lists the patch notes for the latest Retail patch]
Old MMO playerbase was mostly fricking around and using WoW like a glorified social platform which was great because most people on that platform shared familiar hobbies. I think I spent more time on chat and guild drama than on raiding.
Current MMO playerbase is competitive as frick with their dopamine fried brains and only gets excited when competing for rank 1 and realm firsts. They skip/avoid any content that's suboptimal/unnecessary and generally have a "no fun allowed because I only have fun when I'm winning" policy.
No vanilla wasn't perfect from gameplay perspective but the community is a way bigger issue.
remove instancing
remove raids
make it a social game and not some dumb poopsock shit and concentrate on making a grand world
keep it hard as frick
Are you the fricker who keeps repeating "poopsock" all thread? What the frick does that even mean?
it means a game designed for people who would sooner shit in a sock than go to the toilet and stop playing
I know how I'd fix it but my ideas don't match 90% of current playerbase which is in favor of raidlogging and hugboxing.
so? frick them.
So my ideas would never get implemented. Blizzard isn't interested in listening either since you need to have a cuckscription to leave any suggestions on their new and improved community feedback forum (read bin)
Raidlogger here. I don't know what people hate raidlogging so much. Unironically hugh 40, 25, 20 man raid content is the best content wow has to offer every expansion. I would literally log in every day to farm some food before my raid, spend a few hours each week to farm flasks and pots, raid my ass off in a competitive raiding guild, then log off and play other, better games.
I started to hate the game when it required all these other daily fricking activities. At least as a shadow priest I got Xal'atath, the coolest artifact weapon. "Did you feel it cease to exist?"
Blizzard is literally looking for hundreds of underpaid interns they could molest and groom, why haven't you joined them if you're so unhappy with the current state of the game?
>Also I can only imagine how "great" the next xpac is going to be if they're so understaffed
Wow
Talk about brain drain. That's nearly 500 unfilled positions.
>wowbucks still coping that their game is dead
I switched to ffxiv unironically and it's so much better it's unreal. God I hate blizzard for fricking up all their ips. Frick western games
Single player, offline, action, physics. Eventually first person action shooter.
I actually just finished Hellgate London and just now coming off from it. The ending felt a little bit like dark souls combined with diablo. I didn’t like the parts that weren’t action, such as the RTS parts especially with the The Lightning giant android mech, which actually did less damage than I did than if I just solod the street myself.
>What the frick were they thinking?!AVGN.jpg
But other than the bad story where they focused on bad characters like diviniation woman Emmera and spoilers they kill her off along with Murmur and generic music except for the combat music some of that got pretty good, the repetitive use of the same maps but generating them differently wasn’t good enough, the enemies just level up more powerful right after tou get a more powerful gun, not enough shooting off limbs, hands, feet, legs, or heads, the zombies do get pieces of their bodies blown off, like head or torso, but they still move after this like the black knight and are still deadly. Doesn’t make sense, and other enemies do not generally do this.
And how the weapons are just basically Fourth of July kid’s bag of fireworks tier of shooting mechanics. Nothing mature, just a circus bag of fireworks with a few cool weapons here and there and a lot of bad ones.
Too much focus on elements doing the damage and not enough on attributes or on simply bigger ammo and rocket rounds. They need to not separate attributes from physical sizes and weights of both character body and the damage that weapons can cause. Instead of having Elemental Defenses and Attributes, it should be that attributes are ONE and control defenses in the first place. I remember when world of Warcraft started in with special defenses after vanilla got its first expansion pack, leaving behind that strength and armor were the main stats and focusing more on arbitrary things separate from this.
>played vanilla & TBC, missed Wrath entirely, played Cata, and played a little on-and-off beyond there
>haven't touched Classic at all
>haven't play WoW at all since mid-Legion (~4 years ago)
>suddenly have that MMO itch again, but hate what modern WoW has become
>very hyped to try out WotLK classic when it launches
I sure hope I'm not going to be sorely disappointed. Heard very mixed things about Classic, some love it some hate it. The "some changes" thing they're doing could ruin it further or make things even better, it is a mystery.
The "fresh" servers sound like a perfect opportunity to try it, I won't be years behind everyone (economically, socially, etc.). But competing for quest mobs will be aids... hmm
They mentioned making changes to a possible Cataclysm Classic (since it's inevitable Wrath classic will eventually die down), with the possibility of "fixing" what people hate about it, what makes it feel like a schism in WoW history (before Cata is the classic days, beyond is nu-WoW).
What could realistically actually be done?
>keep the old world the same, no more Shattering. Just add the new zones
>but now there's just 5 levels of content, and nothing makes sense lorewise
>or, just no flying?
Feels like it's unsalvageable. The Classic crowd aren't ever going to like it.
They already announced frickton of changes to Wotlk classic. Blizzdrones and Blizzard troons unironically believe that their current version of WoW is more social, accessible and player friendly than Vanilla, TBC or Wotlk. Just let it go. Classic died with the release of 58 boost.
Current WoW is more social than Wrath, you can't auto queue into M+ like you can Wrath heroics which is why they're turning off LFD in Wrath classic
You're moronic for even trying to lump Wrath in with vanilla
You WILL stack 15 warlocks for 0lights
Your GM's girlfriend WILL get the first Val'anyr
You WILL NOT get Firefighter
People want to play Classic Vanilla WoW or at least have semi yearly fresh servers.
Retail homosexuals use this as a way to rerun the entire terrible expansion system from start to finish repeating and reliving every failure but with all the knowledge and cancerous retail community that has driven wow into the gutter.
BRAVO ADDICTS BRAVO!!! Another decade of your wasted lives stuck to that chair maybe your body will really absorb it this time.
>Classic is so bad the slightest bit of game knowledge of a PC that can maintain 60 fps trivializes it
>Classicgays still pretend like it's not the game that's the issue
Also: What is the intended solution here? Hey play classic but intentionally forget how everything works?
Drop the video game knowledge you gathered the last 15 years in general?
If you learn how to drive in Mario Kart, you can't just unlearn that and drive shitty again to have more casual fun.
Delete it. Wow was never good.
the most sad part is something like wow can never happen again in todays climet beacuse the fanbase obsession with min-maxing and game devs focusing more in milking profits than creating a fun game to play.
That isn't it at all. It can't happen again because it already happened. Vanilla wow was crazy because no one knew what was going to happen. The vast majority of users had never played or seen anything like it before. The experience was most definitely about the journey. No one knew where the journey would end. Well guess what, now the whole word knows and there's absolutely nothing at the end of the journey. Other than wrecking your life. That phenomenon of the whole world playing an mmorpg for the first time can't be re created anymore than the entire world driving a car for the first time.
>No one knew where the journey would end
lol people were capped before most players ever subbed
For some reason, the exact tools that would have saved Classic (cross-realm, LFD, etc) are the ones loathed most by players.