I was having a heated debate with some people about it. Their main argument was that you could play for 800 hours and STILL not get all the weapons, so them being free is meaningless when you need to play a ridiculous amount of time to get them.
The other argument was that, even though unlockables have downsides, if it fits your playstyle, it can be a straight upgrade.
And their last argument was "if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?"
What do you guys think?
you can trade duplicate weapons for the ones you miss on third party websites.
Also like yeah you can say that it's p2w but it's not that much of an issue than other games.
>third party websites
Valve could give every unlockable weapon as non tradable and non sellable. To avoid overwhelming new players, maybe give said weapons after a certain amount of hours played, so that players can get accustomed to the default ones
There are achievement unlockable weapons that do that already.
>"if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?"
Because comp 6v6 is not representative of the main style of gameplay.
Anyone advocating that Bonk or the BASE Jumper is overpowered in casual because it's banned in comp is highly uninformed.
Competitive players
A. Fix their Tournaments
B. Are legendarily bad at the game
C. Play a format the game isn't designed around
D. Historically pretend things are "broken" because high level members of the community don't like them
>B. Are legendarily bad at the game
where did the big bad Invite/Prem player touch you, anon?
I would take even the most burned out troony compgay on my team before picking a glue guzzling Gankertard that can only rocket jump straight up after 5000 hours of 2fort gameplay
Based, these threads are populated by shitters who are brainbroken from too much time spent on 2fort during their formative years.
like, one of these thing are true
not a single thing there is true
>a
you can go watch comp and see them trying their asses off
>b
bait
>c
5cp has been in the game since launch unlike gayload which fricking sucks because its sole purpose is to waste your fricking time yet casuals love it
>d
name one thing on the current banlist that's not glitched or objectively broken`
It has nothing to do with the objectives moron, he's referring to the 6v6/highlander formats that put restrictions on team size/class limits which are not what the game was designed around.
>name one thing on the current banlist that's not glitched or objectively broken
Buffalo Steak Sandvich is banned because it gets Heavy to mid, which is completely irrelevant in any format that isn't 6v6 comp. I doubt anyone gives a shit about the Guillotine after the sandman combo was nerfed, but it's banned in comp because the small team sizes and medic restriction make its damage disproportionately strong. The same goes for stuff like the Crit a Cola, Sydney Sleeper, Disciplinary Action, Reserve Shooter, etc. - even if the items themselves are strong, they matter a lot less when there's 12 enemies to either kill you or take the spot of someone who just died.
>name one thing on the current banlist that's not glitched or objectively broken`
Flying Guillotine
Pocket Pistol
Soda Popper
Air Strike
Reserve Shooter
Buffalo Steak Sandvich
Quick Fix
Machina
Sydney Sleeper
Most of these weapons are inoffensive or weaker than their stock counterparts, but are still on the banlist because they're not conforming to the same 6v6 class meta format they've been playing for the same ten years.
>glitched or objectively broken
Iron Bomber was allowed for years, and that weapons projectile hitboxes were both. But Demoman is popular in the format they play, so no one gave a shit.
>Buffalo Steak Sandvich
>Air Strike
not banned
>Soda Popper
no one wants to play against 6 jump scout
>Flying Guillotine
mega frick fast projectile with bleed. fricking cancer. reserve shooter is cancer too.
>Pocket Pistol Soda Popper Machina Flying Guillotine
better than stock
>Air Strike
not banned
>Reserve Shooter
it's stupidly easy to use and its annoying
>Buffalo Steak Sandvich
no one likes fighting heavies
>Quick Fix
it's a defensive crutch that'll keep you holding last but the uber is too shit to push with it
>Sydney Sleeper
>why is shitting out fast 150s a bad thing????
Why the frick is the Detonator banned?
It isn't banned, moron
https://whitelist.tf/etf2l_6v6_summer2023
This is the latest post I could find on their banlist, which included their rationale on banning the L&L. Is this some weird subset of the rules that I'm not aware of?
oh sorry. the answer to that one is that euros are moronic. hope that helps.
>etf2l
Euros are moronic and will ban anything.
https://whitelist.tf/rgl_6v6_s11
this is the white mans whitelist
Makes sense, any idea what made the Detonator too overbearing for them? Someone got asshurt that Pyros started using the Scorch Shot-lite after that was banned?
probably just some random euro pyro player who is annoying gay likes it and they banned if to spite him. if i had to guess.
if i had to guess it'd probably be because pyro only gets pulled out on last to deny ubers and there are few health packs there so you're always tanking full afterburn and it gets extremely annoying to have to keep extinguishing people as med
I could never stand playing with the same people following the same stupid rules, imagine all that ego, ew.
it's not. ur welcome
>"if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?
because compgays are moronic crybabies
You can endlessly rent all the weapons you don't have on the in game store
You can only rent one at a time.
Not really. The stock weapons are fine and good enough. The other weapons are usually just reskins. And you can get weapons through achievements. Or craft them. There really isn't an incentive to buy weapons unless you want everything faster or right away. You'll get them all eventually.
>but in compet-
Comp is ass and never listen to comphomosexuals ever. They ruin games. Also never listen to youtubers.
>usually just reskins
not usually, no
otherwise I agree
>The other weapons are usually just reskins
Are you for fricking real
You can unlock a rather large number of the weapons just by doing achievements.
It's not Pay 2 Win because you can literally borrow the weapons you want from the store for free.
Comp gays literally do not understand the game and play it wrong. Game was never designed for 6v6.
#1 you can borrow every weapon from the store
#2 you can craft every weapon
#3 you can get a lot of weapons from achievements
#4 there are websites set up to automatically handle bot trades to let you get whatever weapons you want with your spare junk
#5 comp players are the reason why the game is as fricked as it is right now, their opinions are less than worthless
thread shouldve ended here
>comphomosexuals having logic
Compshit has a different team composition, they try to optimize their plays to accomodate other players, anything that might add chaos to the mix gets banned.
They are whiny little b***hes that think they should never get killed by anyone else
>Have valuable hats
>Medics fricking flock to you
>Have low tier hats / achievement hats
>Couldn't get healed if you were burning to death right infront of a Medic
Yeah, I'd say it is.
I was getting pocketed yesterday by three medics while wearing the party hat.
By the way
LAUNCH TF2 FOR YOUR FREE PARTY HATS
You don't need valuable hats, just a three cosmetics equipped that aren't a gibus, pyrovision goggles or a brown badge.
Oh I don't have trouble getting healed anymore, I've got nice cosmetic loadouts on all my classes, I'm just speaking from personal experience back before I got into the cosmetic stuff. I used to just run completely stock looks on all my classes but eventually counldn't stand seeing Spy without a hat or Scout with his stupid earpiece.
I still don't wear a hat on Engineer though because I like the default hardhat.
>medics give up on free uber build because someone on their team doesn't have a hat
strange
Medics in general have a bunch of brain rot inflicted on them via osmosis from stupid youtubers.
Like defaulting to the crusader's crossbow and ubersaw
Or refusing to heal scouts/pyros/etc
Or ubering the soldier because "He's better than the heavy" and then the soldier immediately jumps away.
>Like defaulting to the crusader's crossbow and ubersaw
This isn't too bad, both are pretty solid weapons that give you big bonuses without a lot of skill out into them. Harder to defend yourself naturally
>Or refusing to heal scouts/pyros/etc
Not sure why this is the case, as a medic I always try to make sure my whole team is as healthy as can be. Of course if we're getting shot I'm gonna prioritize the guys in the front like the heavies and soldiers but ignoring classes is a horrible medic strat
>Or ubering the soldier because "He's better than the heavy" and then the soldier immediately jumps away.
This is dumb, I think soldier is a really bad uber class. Heavy works far better most of the time, you just need to not uber early and make sure you time it so he's able to fire on people as soon as you pop. Soldier on the other hand, shoots 4 rockets and then his load is blown. If he misses them its a wasted uber. Soldier and demo both are better with kritz, I much prefer heavy or pyro for the regular uber. I also hate getting ubered as a soldier or demo because most of the time my clip is empty and we end up wasting 75% of the uber reloading, meanwhile heavy doesn't need to reload
>Like defaulting to the crusader's crossbow and ubersaw
Crossbow is like medic's equivalent of the rescue ranger. Being able to heal at any range, without needing to put yourself in danger is incredibly strong. You can also use the crossbow at close range to undo bursts of damage that you target just took, making it even better than the medigun in some situations. The ubersaw crits like a motherfricker and gives you 25% fricking uber ON HIT. All you gotta do is find the obligatory spy on the enemy team, hit him twice and you already got 50% uber for free. I have even see medics use the ubersaw to flank an enemy, get a couple of swings and ubercharge immediately to escape from danger. It's THAT good. They are not youtuber recommendations, but straight up the best options the medic has for general use.
>Or refusing to heal scouts/pyros/etc
You probably did something to piss off the medic, like abandoning him while overextending.
>Or ubering the soldier because "He's better than the heavy" and then the soldier immediately jumps away.
Some soldiers will rocket jump to gain more ground under the expectation that the medic will follow them. It doesn't happen often as they usually get the hint that the medic wants them to use that splash damage on the enemy. Heavy X Medic is an iconic duo but is held back by the Heavy's lack of mobility when rev up and the fact that he can only take down one enemy at a time.
>Crossbow is like medic's equivalent of the rescue ranger.
Entirely overrated because of youtubers?
The random spread of the default syringe gun is so awful that you might as well just pull out you melee when in effective range
>syringe gun
>random spread
yes. syringes have projectile spread. you can test this easily.
No, you are just bad at the game.
it's hard to use but there are ways to get it right. A friend of mine plays a lot of medic and he taught me that running backwards makes the needles hit further away, allowing you to counter scouts. Regardless, you are better off just using the crossbow anyways because of its huge upsides.
That anon is a moron and so are you.
>No, you are just bad at the game.
That doesn't mean the crusader's crossbow or rescue ranger aren't overrated, even if that were the case.
Its one thing to say the rescue ranger is overrated especially in pubs where its up to you to kill the entire enemy team yourself but the crusader is just better during normal medic gameplay where you want to spend more time healing than fighting. The situations where the syringe guns are good are situations you should be avoiding in the first place
>A situation where the syringe gun is better than the crossbow is just a situation you should never put yourself in
Ok, but I'm gonna
I don’t know man. Being able to fully heal your teammates while still doing about as much damage (or more) to enemies sounds really good compared to shitty needles that only do 10 damage each and are really hard to hit anything with.
Id love to hear the explanation as to why the Crossbow isn't blatantly Medics best primary.
He needs his dose of dopamine from getting replies so he can postpone his suicide for the week, please understand.
Based, I use the Blutsager and frequently end up shredding a wienery scout/pyro at close range because it deals a good amount of damage and provides enough HP to let me survive their damage. The crossbow is good IF YOU CAN HIT YOUR SHOTS and frankly the amount of times I've been on the receiving end of Der_Frankfurtzoomer missing 2 point blank crossbow shots so that I die is excessive. Plus if you're in Medigun range, use the fricking medigun as it gives you UBERCHARGE and that's the main thing you want. But people see "good" players online use the crossbow constantly and want to emulate them, instead of actually considering what weapon to use in what situation.
Also while we're at it the Rescue Ranger is for homosexuals
>Also while we're at it the Rescue Ranger is for homosexuals
based, the only shotgun I have ever and will ever use is the stock. none of the others come close. rescue ranger is mvm only
I have over 2k kills in my crossbow strange and that doesn't even tell half the tale of what I did with that weapon, it's straight up immoral
it's op as shit.
as it should be
medic is a fricking husk of a class without it
So? Medic has no other good primary weapons so of course the one good one is comparably overpowered lol
it heals way too much, the other weapons need buffs and it should heal like 75 max
>other weapons need buffs
you don't seem to understand why people don't use the other primaries. you can buff the syringe guns and people will still use crossbow. until there is an alternative primary THAT CAN HEAL OTHER PEOPLE people aren't interested
This is moronic, you're supposed to heal with the medigun, not with the primary. I don't mind the crossbow's concept (free long range heals/damage if you have good aim) but it shouldn't be able to burst heal at point blank range, the healing decay over range should be waaaay bigger to the point of making it useless at short range
As for the other primaries I think they deserve not a buff but rather a full rework a la pyro update. They are already dangerously good for combat, if you buff them medic will be competing with dps classes. The thing is they are not satisfying to use and their success relies more on the opponent being bad than on medic's own skill.
Medic could use some other concepts such as grenades that heal allies/damage enemies or a slime gun that slows down enemies
>his is moronic, you're supposed to heal with the medigun, not with the primary.
and why the frick not
why shouldn't there be an option to dish out non shit heals for people who want to take the risk
medics being able to heal more benefits literally everyone
>why shouldn't there be an option to dish out non shit heals for people who want to take the risk
I agree with this hence why I suggested alternative healing methods like the grenade. My problem with the crossbow is that you can heal more per second by using it point blank which is a zero risk situation. I am not against the crossbow so long as it is only usable effectively at mid/long range.
You're supposed to build uber with the medigun. Using the crossbow isn't an overpowered option. It's better at healing in certain circumstances and you build zero uber for it. That's a massive tradeoff. And you know what Medic mains like? Having options and tradeoffs. But continue being moronic about it.
>You're supposed to build uber with the medigun.
moron you're making so many assumptions here. I could be playing the quick fix or the superior medigun which is the vaccinator, in which case this tradeoff is irrelevant compared to being able to heal massively more per second.
>quick fix or vaccinator
what are you even talking about? no one said you specifically had to use THE Medi Gun. Medi Gun, Kritzkreig, etc are all types of medi guns you fricking moron. The fact that you didn't actually bother to address my main point just shows that you understand perfectly well why your arguments are stupid. Non-medic mains need to pipe down
What don't you get about what I said? If I'm using the quick fix or the vaccinator I am not in a race to get uber like I'd be with stock or kritz. The fact you don't get this only shows how you know nothing about how medic is supposed to be played.
Also assuming you are using stock what would you rather want, save your teammate from certain death with the crossbow and keep healing them for several minutes, or have them fricking die (and then you die yourself right after) because you didn't want to miss on that 0.5% uber, homosexual
Learn how to play the game before replying to me
>the vaccinator
>superior medigun
only if you're pocketing someone, otherwise stock/kritz is
Vaccinator is objectively the best consistent medigun, stock/kritz are situational
only if you're pocketing someone because the overheal builds really fricking slow
The overheal is slow because whoever you are healing has way more "effective health" if you factor in the damage resistances.
And no it's not "only if you're pocketing". The vaccinator gets awful uber rates once the target is at max overheal, way worse than any other medigun. This is possibly the worst medigun ever for pocketing, it forces you to heal everyone in the team and only pocket briefly once you have a couple ubers ready (and it's not really pocketing if you're healing other people 90% of the time)
What I would say is that the vaccinator is EASIER to play if you're only focusing one single person, and this is why most noob vaccinator players pocket, but if you're doing this you'll get wrecked, you're not tapping even half of that medigun's potential
>The vaccinator gets awful uber rates once the target is at max overheal
which isn't a problem when you're in combat which is when you never heal any teammate other than your pocket
>it forces you to heal everyone in the team and only pocket briefly once you have a couple ubers ready
you only heal injured teammates during downtime when you have nothing better to do but during actual combat where healing matters most your teammates will never see any healing or buffs
Anon again, the vaccinator is the best medigun for NOT pocketing. I can give uber, fire a crossbow bolt and simultaneously heal a different player. You're talking about things you have no idea about. Literally go watch any youtuber play vaccinator.
>best medigun for NOT pocketing
cant even overheal teammates
4ch Pass anon is moronic but I agree Vaccinator can be good if you're willing to play that shit like it's a fricking arcade game
no, frick off
the medibeam heals at 24 hp/sec discounting crit heals
if you use the crossbow at beam range you can do about 40-50 hp/sec
it can't even outheal a single enemy's damage and you shouldn't be able to 1v2 a medic and his heal target
medigun is limited to the b***h leash, you can stop healing for a nanosecond and pop a 150 arrow and that's it.
>This whole post
>You probably did something to piss off the medic
>He's literally the guy with brainrot the guy who he's replying to was talking about
>Medics in general have a bunch of brain rot inflicted on them via osmosis from stupid youtubers.
Like every class ever?
>Like defaulting to the crusader's crossbow and ubersaw
People who watch youtubers would use the vitasaw, not the ubersaw
>Or refusing to heal scouts/pyros/etc
People who watch youtubers would heal everyone since they know this gives you uber at optimum rates. Also youtubers always explain that scouts and snipers benefit immensely from overheal.
>Or ubering the soldier because "He's better than the heavy"
Are you suggesting it is the heavy that should be ubered? You fricking dumb homosexual
>People who watch youtubers would use the vitasaw, not the ubersaw
vitasaw isn't the "comp choice" though and nobody talks about it, the first video about the vitasaw that you'd get would be arrayseven's vitasaw vs ubersaw video
>youtubers always explain that scouts and snipers benefit immensely from overheal.
only two youtubers say to do that in pubs, arrayseven and theory-y, AKA real medic mains, lots of other youtubers who don't actually play medic tell scouts to go frick themselves and then they die from afterburn because the scout took a health pack
>Are you suggesting it is the heavy that should be ubered?
you're underestimating the sheer destructive power a kritz heavy can have (against anything other than a sentry)
demo's still just plain better with every type of uber than any other class though
Personally I hate both the vitasaw and ubersaw, solemn vow is much better
>uber guy with a hat
>never goes in no matter what unless top 3 on scoreboard
>uner some dogshit f2p
> runs in immediately
Dumbass, as a medic main I can confirm we flock to whoever is the top score dps class in the team.
the more physical space you take up on my screen the more likely you are to be healed. which means heavies are very likely and snipers are lol no
>get a bunch of weapons you don't want
>trade someone else for the ones you do
That's part of why no one who plays valve games complains about their loot boxes, because you can freely trade anything you get through chance.
Really the only issue with this is trading a jarate for like a widowmaker or some shit is that you have to wait TWO FRICKING WEEKS or hope both people got the authenticator because CS:GO dweebs kept giving their $7000 skins to chinese scammers
There is no reason not to have the authenticator set up already, its purpose is to make your account more secure.
True, but people should be able to trade generic weapons for generic weapons in tf2 without authenticating or waiting two weeks because of how astronomically low value they are, and that Valve can specifically identify them via the steam inventory system.
Something they already do for low value items on the Steam Marketplace.
TF2 is P2W only because certain cosmetic things are technically straight upgrade, or how casual servers force you to spend money to talk.
No one cares about it though since the worst P2W item is the looping taunts and only on Demoman who can set up a sticky trap and taunt bebind cover so he can see when someone comes near his trap without showing himself. And technically the third degree, but that’s just the stock fire axe which is already a shit weapon but now with a bonus feature.
Most things are infact P2L actually. Like stock melee reskins not having taunt kills or even shit like Axtinguisher which is basically a downgrade from Stock currently.
>certain cosmetic things are technically straight upgrade
Such as? Most of the time, having a flashy unusual effect just makes your character easier to notice from a distance which fricks over those who play flanking classes.
>or how casual servers force you to spend money to talk
I find chatting to be pretty rare in casual. People usually just kinda of figure out what their team is trying to do through voice commands.
if anything its pay to lose cause all the unlocks suck dick
>PBPP
>All of Scout’s Melees
>Original Rocket Launcher
>Panic Attack
>Disciplinary Action
>Escape Plan
>Panic Attack again
>Third Degree (literally an upgrade from stock, having no downsides to mask that this is literally an upgrade)
>Powerjack
>Back Scratcher
>Iron Bomber
>Panic Attack again
>Holiday Punch
>Panic Attack for 4th time
>Rescue Ranger
>Widowmaker
>Wrangler
>Short Circuit
>Southern Hospitality
>Crusader’s Crossbow
>Blutsauger
>Overdose
>Ubersaw
>Amputator
>Bazaar Bargin
>Machina
>Jarate
>Bushwacka
>Spycicle
>L'Etranger
>All-Class Melee reskins not on the Heavy (which is also a straight upgrade from Stock even by a tiny bit because it doesn’t reveal your class when you get a Melee kill)
All these are better than their stock counterparts in like 99.99% of scenarios or sometimes 100%. Most of them are so close to Stock anyways, which is probably why they are almost complete upgrades.
>I'm going to win the game because the game will not know what class I am because I'm using the frying pan
You're like the moronic comp community that demanded that the voices from below spell couldn't drop anymore because a medic saying he's fully charged in a slightly deeper voice could decide a competitive game
It’s literally a straight upgrade. A tiny upgrade that rarely has an impact, but an upgrade still. If you have one of the reskins, preferably the the Bat Outta Hell, and do not have any other unlocks, there is not a single reason why you shouldn’t use it on all the classes besides Heavy.
Plan
Degree
>>Back Scratcher
>>Iron Bomber
Punch
Hospitality
’s Crossbow
agree on on these mostly melee weapons, i think you can get them for a scrap on a trading site like every weapon in this game
A bunch of these are arguable.
And even then, a lot are competing for the same slot so you only need one of them.
A lot of those slots are filled by achiement items too, which you can guarantee.
The only slots that can't be filled with either stock or achiement items are melee ones for scout, soldier, heavy and sniper.
Achievements are still pay to win since it’s still faster to buy them. They are also in comparison to Stock itself and not the other unlocks.
Like the Panic Attack on Heavy is an upgrade from stock Shotgun, but both are far worse than the Lunch Box items, which I didn’t count because they are so different from a shotgun which itself has upsides compared to lunch box items.
Panic attack is a sidegrade because it's less effective at mid range. While stock has a consistent spread, the panic attack becomes less accurate with each shot.
Every weapon with a unique function is worth the exact same in a trade as every other weapon with a unique function.
There's probably barely 20 non-stock weapons that are worth even a tenth of a shit. Not even counting the (significant) portion of those that are achievement weapons, you can get that in a few weeks of play.
Also, competitive still bans the Ullapool Caber, which is a single-use way to deal less damage than a point blank pill. They don't just ban things because they're too good, they also ban things because they're too different from what they think that class ought to be able to do.
>Their main argument was that you could play for 800 hours and STILL not get all the weapons, so them being free is meaningless when you need to play a ridiculous amount of time to get them.
lol. even assuming it would take that long, you'd get enough other items to trade for a full set. plus, most of the items in the game aren't very good or are side grades at best, so just trade for what you want to use for classes you like.
>The other argument was that, even though unlockables have downsides, if it fits your playstyle, it can be a straight upgrade.
exactly right. unlockable weapons are never meant to be an upgrade for everyone, they fit certain play styles and situations and can become stronger based on that. of course this doesn't make it p2w because you don't need to do these playstyles to succeed, you can top score on every class with the stock loadout. for example I use the eureka effect religiously on both attack and defense as essentially my only wrench. I love the damn thing, and for the way I play it's an upgrade. but I don't "need" it, I can play just fine with a regular wrench
>And their last argument was "if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?"
competitive players are massive whining homosexuals. they intentionally play tf2 with restrictions (6v6 is half the expected team size, highlander is 9v9 so still less than the expected plus each class appears once, no variety allowed) and then complain the game doesn't fit their modified gimped and restricted version of the game. you never take any balance change a compgay says seriously. they can just go onto a custom server and ban half of the game from being used if they care so much. they ban weapons because certain ones are basically straight upgrades in comp, for example the downside of the machina is pretty much non existent because both teams have perfect communication so the trail doesn't matter
Can you actually borrow weapons? I have over 1k hours and didnt know that.
How does it work? They go after a week?
Go on the mann co store
Type in the name of the weapon you want to try
Select it
Try it out
You get it for a week.
Also in one of the good changes with gun mettle, you can pick up any weapon that happens to be laying on the ground in game.
>Their main argument was that you could play for 800 hours and STILL not get all the weapons
You can use scrap.tf to trade your duplicates for the ones you are missing. IIRC you can drop up to 10 weapons per week.
technically yes, even though most are side grades. free players have a limited inventory and can't acquire every weapon. but also who cares it's tf2.
None of those points matter.
>>play for 800 hours and STILL not get all the weapons
Stock is objectively better (especially since they fixed the Iron Bomber) then all the other weapons, both in stats AND gameplay. Granted, Scorch Shot is broken, but it's not like it's going to one shot you or make the game objectively worse to play because some dumb Pyro is spamming it.
>>if it fits your playstyle, it can be a straight upgrade.
I run Loose Cannon, Tide Turner, and Scotsman Skullcutter on Demo, I'm not topping any lobbies with this it's for pure fun. Stock pills and stickies will have a much better time playing the game. Hell- people still argue to this day how OP Sniper is. Just play stock Sniper and win.
The only way TF2 could be considered P2W is because the lootboxes (a la War Paints and Cosmetic Cases and everything before them) can be considered FOMO since its such a staple of the game itself. But even that would be a stupid argument because it doesn't affect gameplay.
>>"if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?"
Competitive doesn't exist in Team Fortress 2, ignore those schizogays.
yes but it's not game ruining
That image doesn't address the fact that the game hands you free items every week. You never have to touch the Valve store again after unlocking premium.
that is literally irrelevant and you'll quickly hit backpack limits anyway
also
>after unlocking premium
>that is literally irrelevant
Wrong, it completely invalidates the image as you are not obligated to spend cash to "change how you play the game". The game also offers weapon crafting so you can replace existing duplicates with the other weapons that you don't have, so it all boils down to playing long enough. Most unlocks are sidegrades or full blown downgrades, because for most classes using stock is still generally considered more viable. The other player isn't gonna have an advantage if he spends money on the bison, he's just an idiot. The closest this image gets to being right are promotional weapons that aren't in circulation anymore but they are all skins who do not affect the gameplay in a significant way.
that shit is still irrelevant. Spending money creates an advantage. End of discussion. It might not be a massive advantage or an instant win button, but it's still an advantage. That is the meager threshold of p2w
>it's irrelevant because...it just is, okay?
>does spending money in tf2 give you benefits over not spending
>yes so it's p2w
>b-but crafting with time
>this guy bought the bison while I got it 25 minutes later while playing the game, it's literally pay 2 win!
>and you'll quickly hit backpack limits anyway
laughably wrong and i've been playing for almost 13 years now
Voice chat is premium users only. Voice chat is integral to high level gameplay.
>if it fits your playstyle, it can be a straight upgrade.
I know a guy who knew this guy who was incredibly good with the direct hit. The way unlocks usually work in TF2 is that you get weapons that can shit out a ton of damage but at some kind of risk or penalty that makes it harder to pull off. The direct hit is theoretically an upgrade in all situations but you are held back by your own lack of accuracy and being unable to rely on splash damage against crowds.
>if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?
Comp isn't a singular entity but more like a bunch of different sets of rules that sometimes share similar bans. Each one has its own meta and the idea behind the bans is to maintain it. One of the reasons why people got pissed at compgays influencing balance updates was because you had an environment with one meta (casual) being balanced around one that had another (comp).
>in all situations
what about a situation where you really need splash damage against crowds
That's what the rest of the post was saying, yes. In theory, doing extra damage with a fast projectiles would still be very strong against crowds but a slower projectile with splash damage is gonna be more useful.
It's certainly not P2W in the slightest, but in reality it's actually a dead game
TF2 is dead, it's time to move on to the superior multiplayer Valve shooter AKA Left 4 Dead 2
>Fully mod supported with a large amount to choose from
>Consistent playerbase that isn't filled with bots
>No israelite cosmetics, if you want to change the appearance of someone you download a mod, no transactions required
>A well programmed game director ensures that almost every game you play is different than the last, promoting replayability
>even if you get bored of playing the same campaign maps all the time, there are plenty of great custom maps to choose from
>has one of the most advanced gore systems in a vidya
>Versus still makes homosexuals and shitters seethe to this day
>Tha' L4D2 autist is a bloody
>NEEDA
>Schadenfreude
>kill bind
https://arch.b4k.co/v/search/image/xwQh0udpcdA6NkiC5Jh6Lw%3D%3D/page/35/
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c0/Sniper_award13.wav
Get a life
Its Pay2Win cause some taunts let you look around corners indefinitely that you can cancel out of anytime
>can no longer detonate while taunting
I hate comptards so fricking much
>can no longer high five stand on a high place
this one made me sadder, my old friendgroup's signature tomfoolery
>can no longer high five taunt as demo at the exit to the tunnel in dustbowl and kill people as they walk through the tunnel
I miss it
can't even do the fricking iconic meet the demoman thing. and blow 'em all up while saying kabewm
they should have made it a "tauntkill" where he'd automatically detonate them when saying "BEWM"
yes
"alternative" powers are p2w, because those powers are stronger in certain situations, or even overall, because balance is not perfect
imagine if you could only get m4 or awp in csgo by buying it with real $$
CS:GO is not TF2 lol
you're correct
it's even worse with how much game changing some weapons are
csgo comparison is an extremely low ball
Nah
I will say that if you don't buy anything so pure F2P, the drop rate for items is pretty bad.
If you ever buy anything the rate you get items jumps immensly.
>And their last argument was "if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?"
Competitive formats are very different from standard pub play, some things are either just way better in small, organized lobbies than in 12v12 pubs, or they just fundamentally go against the competitive vision of that format. For example, the Quick Fix is real fricking bad in pubs, the downsides are all massive and the upsides are basically meaningless in that environment. But it's banned in 6v6 because it's a stalemate machine there, when you have so few players the extra healing and survivability matters a lot and it becomes very hard to win midfights without running your own Quick Fix. Also consider the Steak Sandvich and the whip: hardly pub-breaking weapons, but 6v6 players don't want you bringing Heavies to mid on 5CP maps, so those weapons are banned.
>Their main argument was that you could play for 800 hours and STILL not get all the weapons
This is true, and honestly Valve should have probably added a set of Contracker missions so new players can work their way up to all the unlocks. On the other hand, you get about 11 drops for the first 10 hours you play every week, so if we're assuming you're spacing out your playtime, then in 800 hours it's not unreasonable for you to end up with ~880 drops. Discarding the fact that F2Ps can trade any tool unlocks they get in this time, realistically you're going to have most if not all of the unlocks at that point, and plenty of duplicates to use for crafting whatever's left.
It's also worth mentioning that you can get Premium by buying a Tour of Duty Ticket for $1, then immediately selling it on the community market for the same price, effectively giving you Premium for ~30 cents after Valve takes their cut of the market sale. The moment you do this, you get access to all the trading sites that will give you any unlock you want for 1 scrap metal. As far as P2W goes, that's not so bad.
Solution: h2 rook to h8 - check, queen takes rook on h8, c1 rook to a1 - checkmate
Queen takes a1
Nerf Queen, she is Chess' equivalent of Sniper if you think about it
Second try: It's an impossible troll puzzle
rook to g1
Ohhhhhh
This is why I'm sub-1000 elo
don't worry, I am too I used a chess site for it. cool solution
i mean technically yes since there are some objectively better non-stock weapons
I know this whole post is bait but
>And their last argument was "if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?"
Every other game from League of Legends to Rainbow Six Siege have bans in comp and not everything is unlocked from the start either, its not at all unique to TF2. Your "friends" who totally exist and are gamers should know better.
moron
I'm sorry I should take this topic more seriously and not just dismiss it as another "b***h about comp" bait thread.
only a tiny fraction of the worthwhile unlocks can't be unlocked through achievements. You can easily use the scrap you get from the first week to trade for gunboats/powerjack/GRU and be set
no comptroons made sure to have all sidegrades nerfed into being worthless
only time I move away from stock is to mess around
>800 hours
>Buy a key
>Convert it to scraps
>Buy every weapon
2 bucks bro, 2 fricking bucks you cheap fricking thirdie.
you can tell how incompetent this game's developers were when statements like "you can get every weapon from drops" and "you can't buy direct power upgrades" were things they legitimately tried to have not be true
I just started again after probably a decade, if not longer. I agree there are too many goddamn items, but I found scrap.tf and have been exchanging dupes for new shit. However, I assume not every weapon gets traded in high numbers. I don't have a Phlog yet, which apparently is a really good pyro weapon. Still, that's a frickton better than crafting and it's automated bots so I don't have to trigger my autism by trading with a real human.
Every non-stock weapon is a sidegrade. Playing non-stock does not give you an advantage over stock, it just gives you different options.
Exception being the Third-Degree. The Solemn Vow used to be another before they added 10% slower fire rate.
>is TF2 P2W
The sticky launcher is free, so no.
If a game allows you to pay to skip something, that means the developers thought that thing was not fun and are making you do something unfun on purpose. If this wasn't true, no one would want to spend money to skip it.
In ideal world people would exchange weapons 1 to 1, so intention was for people to barter for things they need with things they don't.
In reality however, people instantly created an "economy", and even in better days one weapon had a price of a scrap (three weapons in ancient times).
And I guess not all weapons were made equal, so trading backburner for, let's say, sandwich would certainly leave one side of the trade with less than before.
I just play mvm mostly. Balance is always lame
I think that going f2p was a mistake.
The only Pay 2 Win aspect of this game is the Unusuals hats lmao because you will always gets a pocket medic 24/7 and enemies steer away from you.
You can always exchange weapon dupe for your prefered weapon in scrap.tf or spend just two and a half dollar and get every fricking weapons in the game and probably some hats too if they ever want to get those crumb of heals from friendly medic.
All I care about is them taking away the ability to run and slide off an edge while taunting. That shit was too fun and they took it away.
All because of some "comp" players that just complain about the competitive mode being shit all day.
autists ruin good things as much as they create good things
>The other argument was that, even though unlockables have downsides, if it fits your playstyle, it can be a straight upgrade.
>And their last argument was "if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?"
"Stock is best" has always been a moronic claim. There was an upgrade in the very first update to add unlockables, that to this day remains the best medic melee. It's never been true.
Yes, valve fricked up by not upholding the principle that "only cosmetic stuff should be exclusively available". You fricking understand that for every other shooter but let it slide when it comes to tf2.
>but you could just...
Just let every player have every weapon. How hard is that to do?
No random crits and it's fixed
>"Stock is best" has always been a moronic claim.
Stock is best for 90% of the weapons, only some melees are TRUE upgrades, where as others you can treat them as sidegrades
>loses against enemy stock heavy
>only some melees are TRUE upgrades
Scout has upgrades in his secondary. As does pyro, heavy, medic, sniper and engineer.
Also why does it not matter if it's a melee upgrade?
>loses against enemy stock heavy
With tomi you only need to catch a stock heavy by surprise or fight him at range to beat him.
NTA but please name these upgrades and why you consider them upgrades.
Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol (alternative Mad Milk), Sandvich/Banana, Panic Attack for pyro (comboing with degreaser so that's another unlock), Jarate, Wrangler.
Oh and crossbow.
the crossbow is so much better than the syringe gun it's not even funny. Even if you were to take away the healing part of it it's still 10x better
Excuse me being late
>Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol (alternative Mad Milk)
This one is balanced by being worse in direct engagements. You can still use it to chip health for some free health but you are sacrificing the pistol's versatility as a finisher gun.
>Sandvich/Banana
This one is balanced by its lower health gained. I do agree that it's a pretty good item, tho.
>Panic Attack for pyro (comboing with degreaser so that's another unlock)
The panic attack's shtick is that it works really well at short range but it becomes less accurate with each shot. What this means is that unless you do that constant swap combo with the pyro, you will need to be at a range where just using your flamethrower would be just as effective.
>Jarate
Very strong support tool which is balanced by the sniper losing his best tool to defend himself (unless he can do close ranged headshots). Jarate snipers like to use the buschwacka but that just locks them into melee combat while being extra vulnerable to damage, so finishing them off is easier.
>Wrangler
Similar to pretty boy, the engineer is sacrificing firepower for utility. It's less noticeable for him because he's a class that focuses on supporting his team anyways, so it sits on a similar spot to the rescue ranger where it feels like a straight upgrade if you aren't going for a more aggressive playstyle where the extra firepower would be needed.
>This one is balanced by being worse in direct engagements
Doesn't it literally have a higher DPS due to the faster fire rate? If the enemy has more health than the clip then stick with the scattergun.
>This one is balanced by its lower health gained.
I was saying one or the other over stock (the shotgun).
>What this means is that unless you do that constant swap combo with the pyro
The constant swap combo would be the point.
>Similar to pretty boy, the engineer is sacrificing firepower for utility.
It's a pistol being traded for one of the most ridiculously powerful secondaries in the game. Which can funnily enough also do what you would mainly want a pistol for (shooting stickies). Being able to raise a shield up during uber pushes is alone worth it.
>Doesn't it literally have a higher DPS due to the faster fire rate?
And a smaller clip, so it balances out. That would make it good at point blank but at that point you might as well just be using your primary.
>(shooting stickies)
It would require having a sentry set up and being near it. As I said, it's a support tool for the defensive support class so of course it's gonna be good. It's less good for aggressive playstyles, like say you are running widowmaker, you are better off keeping the pistol since it functions as a backup in case you run out of metal.
>It would require having a sentry set up and being near it.
The entire point of shooting stickies would be to protect the sentry.
Well, yeah, and if you're away from the sentry that wrangler isn't useful for anything.
>Scout has upgrades in his secondary.
PBPP is still a sidegrade along with Mad Milk
>As does pyro, heavy, medic, sniper and engineer.
Crossbow, Wrangler, Sandvich, Third Degree and to an extent Jarate I can agree that they are pretty much straight upgrades due to either general playstyle or just better stats of their stock counterparts
>Also why does it not matter if it's a melee upgrade?
Never said it wasn't?? Just saying that generally primary and secondary stock weapons are good and their unlocks are mostly sidegrades
>With tomi you only need to catch a stock heavy by surprise or fight him at range to beat him.
Especific situation, I can also say that you can do almost the same to the enemy heavy by rev jumping or having it revved up already for closer fights where the heavy pushes you.
So, sidegrade
i miss the old sandvich. a free fricking medium health kit every however many seconds? frick yeah. it needed to go but i miss it so bad sometimes
They should honestly just give heavy a lunch box item that's that.
But he can't eat it.
you know, it would have been far more balanced if it acted like a small health kit instead of a medium. shame that it can't be instantly eaten at all anymore
Ok, but that presents the opportunity that we COULD have a lunchbox item that lets you carry a medium medkit
for self healing? maybe, for everyone else i don't see the point.
A medium health kit is a medium health kit
no i mean i don't see the point in it being for others if the sandvich is literally that
It's that for others, as a bonus.
PBPP is actually considered better even if it didn't also heal you to boot.
>I can also say that you can do almost the same to the enemy heavy by rev jumping or having it revved up already for closer fights where the heavy pushes you.
Read post above.
>PBPP is actually considered better even if it didn't also heal you to boot.
The lower clip can frick you up if you are trying to finish off a target. It's good for harassment and regaining some of your health back but it's less viable for what the stock can do. Before anyone brings it up, getting healed mid fight isn't some Wolverine shit where you are invalidating all the damage done.
>where as others you can treat them as sidegrades
having access to sidegrades is an advantage.
>exclusively available
Exclusive to what, the Medic milestone achievements? At least with other weapons like the crossbow you could argue that the drop you want is RNG dependent, but the Ubersaw is a guaranteed unlock that's easily fulfilled by just playing the class. Trying to equate that with grinding out battlepasses/gatcha currency or having to pay for DLC characters is completely moronic.
>that's easily fulfilled by just playing the class
lol no. You have to play very weirdly to get a lot of achievements. Especially medic where a lot of achievements push for combat medicing. It's why achievement servers became a thing. And ubersaw was the one that required the most medic achievements to get.
Out of 36 achievements, only 4 require being a combat medic:
>Consultation
>Does it Hurt When I Do This?
>Peer Review
>Sawbones
If we exclude Chief of Staff as a lifetime achievement, there are 31 achievements left which require healing and ubercharging people in scenarios which happen every fricking match. This requires exactly zero deviation from your normal Medic gameplay besides maybe recognizing which ubercharge recipients aren't braindead.
Realistically how would you nerf this so it's not a direct upgrade
>Instead of 25% Uber, it’s 15%
>Instead of slower swing speed, Ubers last 10% less
it would never get used then because while the ubersaw is good you don't get to use it very often, so reduced uber duration kills the weapon. even if it gave 50% uber on hit it would be bad with reduced duration
>Instead of slower swing speed, Ubers last 10% less
This is too much, just decrease its damage and remove the random crits. It will still function as a tool to gain free uber but it will be less useful for damage and medics won't shit out 195 damage on command.
On Hit: Gain 10% Ubercharge
On Kill: Gain 25% Ubercharge
20% Slower Firing Speed
Deploys 30% Slower
Easy, 50% lower medigun ubercharge rate. That'd scare away most of the casuals, so you could probably lift the current downsides for the battle medics.
no it's not P2W because the default weapons are still great and usually better than the extra ones. sure, some of those extras may be better in certain niche situations but you should be definitely able to make a meaningful impact with the default weapons, and can still easily top the scoreboard with them.
i think people see all those weapons and just assume the worst but tf2 isn't like other games in that respect. the default weapons are totally fine.
Needing to heal yourself because you're playing a class that fights by tanking damage is a niche situation?
Or for that matter, needing to get to the frontlines faster because said same class is the slowest in the game?
And let's not forget that only remaining slow said class, his primary has a weapon that's blatantly an upgrade as well.
You are sacrificing a secondary that does not require being rev up to fire. Heavies can get flanked to shit if they aren't rev up and waiting for the enemy. The lunchboxes also have the disadvantage of leaving you open for enemy attacks if they happen to catch you while you are eating. So, it's up to you to decide which one you would rather prioritize.
His primaries play similarly but they all have different niches. I love using the tomislav but you will almost always lose heavy duels because it can't out dps stock at close ranges. The others are self explanatory.
>You are sacrificing a secondary that does not require being rev up to fire.
While using a primary that barely requires any revving at all. Fatscout is a literal meme.
>The lunchboxes also have the disadvantage of leaving you open for enemy attacks if they happen to catch you while you are eating.
So a disadvantage entirely dependant on using the thing. Meanwhile you're equally fricked if the enemy attacks and you didn't heal up.
>but you will almost always lose heavy duels because it can't out dps stock at close ranges.
Think from the other side. You're a stock heavy. So you can't attack at long range. But if you try and engage at close range the tomi heavy will still kill you due to having a headstart on doing damage. So you need to be at close range, already revved, but then are constantly giving the enemy heavy a warning you are there.
>a primary that barely requires any revving at all
Untrue, play more Heavy.
>a disadvantage entirely dependant on using the thing. Meanwhile you're equally fricked if the enemy attacks and you didn't heal up.
You will fricked regardless if you don't heal up. Having an option to heal yourself can save you but you will be leaving yourself vulnerable in the meantime. It's a risk reward system that is common with the unlocks in this game.
TF2 is a game designed around mid to close ranged engagements. It's the reason why most weapons do less damage the further away you are from an enemy. While the slav does have better accuracy, which can come in handy in more open maps, it's generally recommended to use stock because your DPS will be much stronger.
>But if you try and engage at close range the tomi heavy will still kill you due to having a headstart on doing damage
Heavy duels will almost always favor the one who rev up first but, in a situation where both heavies are rev up at the same time and at close range, stock always wins because it will still out-DPS the slav, despit it firing first, due to the slav's slower firing speed.
>but then are constantly giving the enemy heavy a warning you are there.
You forget that the game has other audio cues, such as your weapon's firing sound and the "click" when you rev up. An enemy player can still tell that a slav Heavy is nearby, so its silent killer aspect is more situational. From experience, I can say that it's good when you are going up against anything but another Heavy and you are falling back around a corner. Some players are clever and they'll avoid following you because they expect you to have an ambush prepared. Walking around rev up can also be useful but hopping while revving up with stock is just as effective.
>Untrue, play more Heavy.
You fricking never see heavies running shotgun unless they're pushing the fatscout meme. Rev just isn't that much of a drawback. Especially when you factor in tomislav.
>You will fricked regardless if you don't heal up.
Yeah that's what I said.
> in a situation where both heavies are rev up at the same time and at close range
Again, that's a situation that's only going to happen if the tomislav player lets it. Though I'm guessing you might be saying both heavy players are starting to rev at the same time. If that's the case then fair enough. But assuming this is enough of a reason to switch from tomi then we're basically saying tomi is a upgrade unless the other team is running stock heavy
>You fricking never see heavies running shotgun unless they're pushing the fatscout meme
that's because most tf2 players are moronic
>You fricking never see heavies running shotgun unless they're pushing the fatscout meme.
You fricking never see heavies period, he's not a popular class. The ones that do run Heavy are usually accompanied by medics, so they run lunchbox to help injured medics since it's a legit strat.
>Rev just isn't that much of a drawback
It's what allows Heavies to get flanked in the first place. If you wanna see just how broken he would be without revving up, play TFC for a few hours. Being able to land a few shots on a Heavy before he has the time to start firing is a pretty important design choice.
>that's a situation that's only going to happen if the tomislav player lets it
It's pretty map dependent, honestly. like, if you are running slav indoors, the extra range won't matter much and stock will be better for raw damage.
>But assuming this is enough of a reason to switch from tomi then we're basically saying tomi is a upgrade unless the other team is running stock heavy
It's actually my favorite Heavy weapon, I use it more than stock and mainly for the silent killer, because I enjoy waiting around corners while rev up to catch distracted enemies. Outside of this specific situation, it's not better than stock. The slower firing speed affects everything you do, from firing at fleeing enemies to fighting back after getting flanked. You always feel that reduced damage output and getting fricked over by stock heavies isn't fun either. You would think that the extra range would be useful, but I find that chipping health from a long distance can also be done with stock and the difference in damage isn't substantial because, again, your firing speed is slower. It really is a weapon that you can't take as an upgrade because unless you are doing some very specific plays, you are just rolling with a weaker stock.
>but, in a situation where both heavies are rev up at the same time and at close range, stock always wins because it will still out-DPS the slav, despit it firing first
This doesn't seem to be true, even at point-blank: https://youtu.be/e-NxqkcaUjQ?si=b86dhHb43SDkr6ND&t=540
>Their main argument was that you could play for 800 hours and STILL not get all the weapon
complete nonsense unless you run out of backpack space.
Why do I keep seeing absolutely moronic opinions about TF2 in these last few years?
>minisentry bad
>remove random crits
>Sniper OP
>TF2 is P2W
It's like everyone is a fricking news caster these days. Something ALWAYS has to be "broken" or the best thing ever. TF2 is a great game and has been for years. It's not imbalanced or broken and the new updates don't magically improve it. It's just a great game.
Mini sentries have generated infinite ass pain ever since their inception newbie
Yes people always whined. Personally I hate Sniper and Spy. I'm talking more about how the tone of it. Instead of saying "I hate ____" they're saying "____ is unbalanced and should be fixed". I guess
is right and I just haven't noticed it before? Or maybe I'm noticing it now because I learned to recognize and hate this tendency in other games. I hate this live service bullshit where a game can't just be. It has to be in this constant cycle where it's broken and is getting fixed, with an endless array of troony "pro players" and "influencers" and redditors b***hing and moaning about how X is broken and Y is imbalanced and Z is racist and
new tf2 players watching youtubers complain about certain topics. Uncle homosexual is probably the worst
ironically they were worse when you couldn't heal them.
minis used to be a lot stronger, but they still generally do most of the things people hate about them. People have been b***hing about crits for TF2's whole life. Sniper is polarizing and they changed a lot of stuff that made it more difficult, namely other classes. TF2 is arguably p2w depending on your definition
About 10 years ago,Valve fricked up majorly and started adding "balance" updates to the game.
Then they FURTHER made the mistake of having a closed beta and letting youtubers and comp players personally get weapons they didn't like ruined.
Now the conversation surrounding tf2 is POSITIVELY FLOODED with people still holding out hope that Valve will ruin something they don't like, despite basically everyone at Valve realizing it was a mistake to try and cater to these people and it created what Valve calls a "Treadmill Issue" where a developer has to waste time fixing a problem they caused.
Sort of like how matchmaking more or less caused the bot problem and it only quietly gets worked on, and more sparingly.
>minisentry bad
it's not that it's bad, it's that it absolutely cucks scouts and anyone else with the attention span and reflexes of a dead goldfish
>remove random crits
petulant children who hate tf2 for being tf2
>Sniper OP
every class is OP in the right hands, people cling to sniper because of the bot crisis
>TF2 is P2W
at one point for a very brief time it was due to class sets, then valve knocked that shit off
people are just moronic and like to complain about things they have no actual power to change
>Sniper OP
This is due to his quickscope doing 150 damage, invalidating the whole point of having a charge bair and having access to tools that counter two classes that can harass him, including the one designed to be his hard counter. So, you have an infinite range hitscan class that can oneshot others from a safe distance and is only hard countered by himself.
People have been complaining about ministries since they were released because they're annoying , but they fixed the glitch where they're invincible while building so they're a lot better now.
People have been complaining about Crits for most of the games lifespan because they're honestly a pretty bad mechanic even if they're funny honestly if the games comp mode was worth a damn people probably wouldn't care.
Because the average IQ has been going down for the past 30 odd years.
>crits
I don't mind random crits in general, you die to one, you kill with one.
But if they insist on keeping them in the game, then medic should be immune to crits. He gets all of the massive downsides (not only dying, but also using uber), with zero upsides, since you almost never make use of them. No, critting once in 20 games with ubersaw doesn't count.
I love playing medic but every time I do it in casual it's just an exercise in masochism.
Equip
The FRICKING
SYRINGE GUN
why would I equip the syringe gun when the crossbow is OP as frick
THREE HUNDRED
DAMAGE
PER SECOND.
make the syringe guns reload automatically and maybe I'll consider using them.
the crossbow not only helps medic do his job, it also doesn't leave him shit out of luck because it's always ready when he switches to it
To do what? Still eat a fricking glowing pipe or a rocket from above? Fegot.
Rude.
>But if they insist on keeping them in the game, then medic should be immune to crits.
i hate gays
Yes, very epic. Now do this in a game where people can aim. Their shit either hitscans or splashes half the map, and you need to lead your shots like a fricking pythagoras PLUS need to account for ping.
>crit immune medic
Make it a toggleable option.
Crit immunity but no crits.
Crit vulnerability but can crit.
Choice is yours.
Nobody pays for weapons, you can get them for 1 scrap which is super easy to obtain. There are a good amount of straight upgrades which I do think is a problem that should be addressed as I believe unlocks should be side grades.
>Tomislav
>Jarate
>Crusaders Crossbow
>Pocket Pistol
>Diamondback
>Most melee weapon unlocks
Cuz the stock loadouts are all the best ones more or less
i fricking hate moronic homosexuals. and you are one. without a doubt.
Reposting this gamerfuel from previous thread
I love russians so much
>P2W
No. Majority of the items are too situational and doesn't matter to have. It's just min-maxing autism with how people treat items these days rather than just fun tools to frick around with. Competitive autism is also ruining the fun of things.
you can frag and own people with just the stock items
There should be an intelligence test before you're allowed to play Sniper or Spy. 50% of the people playing them seem to have double digit IQs
Good. That's the point. I really hate it when people start whining that sniper is an instakilling machine because they forget that in reality 99% of Sniper players are annoying children who score like 5 headshots a game at best. And that's a good thing.
I got a 20 killstreak as Sniper once. He's pretty fun but I like Scout more.
What they should do is give Scout the Sniper Rifle so you can play Sniper without having shit mobility.
Oh and give Sniper the Gunboats, frick Demo.
if you are too autistic to trade your weapon drop for the weapon you want then you shouldn't be playing an online game.
Is that the sniper? It's hard to tell.
what do i win
a free hat*
*gibus
A hat's a hat, give it up
>P2W
Yes. The saving grace for my friends has been the initial F2P and the fact all items can be bought for like a penny online for a buck total. So overall its a pretty low bar of entry.
sd_doomsday
home
>you could play for 800 hours and STILL not get all the weapons
This is true for any game with unlockable items. It is technically true that you COULD play a very, very long time and not unlock everything. That is technically true. And you COULD buy them. That is also true.
>so them being free is meaningless when you need to play a ridiculous amount of time to get them.
But no one actually takes a ridiculous amount of time to get them. A bunch of them are from achievements which are easy to get and you get 11 items a week. If you ask someone, they'll probably just gift you whatever you're missing.
>if it fits your playstyle, it can be a straight upgrade
And what?
>"if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?"
Competitive is different than normal play.
But I have a question for you: WHO THE FRICK CARES? Who the frick is debating anything like this for TF2 of all games? Let alone in 2023? Are there kids playing it for the first time now and feeling like they have a "competitive disadvantage" because they need to play for more than a few hours to get the items they want? Where the frick do you find these people?
Tbh non-milestone unlockables were a mistake. Most of them look like shit (the deus ex weapons, the grordbort weapons) or add a totally stupid gimmick (rescue ranger, eureka effect, vaccinator).
IMO the best unlocks were those like the huntsman/c&d/kritz. They don't drastically change a class's role
Shit like Demoknights or Market Gardener soldiers is fricking stupid.
>IMO the best unlocks were those like the huntsman
>c**tsman
>totally stupid gimmick (rescue ranger, eureka effect, vaccinator)
The Rescue Ranger and the Vaccinator are perfectly fine sidegrades. The rescue ranger is key to some very fun tactics like sentry jumping and repositioning your sentry. The Vaccinator offers a new way to play medic.
the vaccinator is complete cancer
You can cry about how annoying it is but don't say that it's a gimmick. It significantly changes what the medic can do and how you play the class.
it literally is a gimmick
Resistances gives you a completely new mechanic to Medic and TF2 in general. It fundamentally changes your moment-to-moment experience with healing, and it eliminates the reliance on waiting for traditional uber charges. It's one of the least gimmicky weapons in the game.
>No, critting once in 20 games with ubersaw doesn't count.
I've fricked your mom for more hours than you have on medic and I say that as someone who has never even seen her although I'm sure she's a lovely woman despite how her son has turned out.
>a completely new mechanic to Medic and TF2 in general
how is that not a gimmick lol
What does the word gimmick mean to you? To me it means some kind of trick or novelty designed mainly to attract attention and which does not have any real value or substance to it. For example, Pyro has this axe that transfers damage the the medic that's healing the person you're striking. In theory, it can be really fun to kill two people with one stroke of the axe but it's a very situation weapon that's rarely used, and hard to justify since if the Pyro is in melee range with a target he can just melt it with his flamethrower or Shotgun which is quicker and more efficient and the medic is nearby anyway so he can kill him too. A gimmicky weapon.
The vaccinator on the other hand is a useful weapon that introduces meaningful changes to how you as the medic play the game and how other people play against you. The community generally considers these changes to be meaningful because lots of people hate it.
I wasn't disagreeing with you.
>The Vaccinator offers a new way to play medic.
It also gives you an immediate frick off option for the 4 shitheads queuing into a game to roll phlog pyros.
Rescue Ranger should have been the Engine update primary.
Vaccinator shouldn't be in the game at all.
A lot are unlockable and the rest can just be traded for or crafted.
Why is it called "unlocks" now?
>now
Well originally it was because the original items were unlocked by doing achievements.
The new way it is referred to is because teenagers playing the game legitimately don't know how to refer to a game actually giving you free items instead of billing you for them, or them not being part of a battle pass.
Not a clue.
As far as I'm concerned, the achievement weapons are 'unlocks', and ONLY the achievement weapons.
aint the standard weapons pretty much the best ones?
>why do they ban them in comp?
Because compBlack folk don't like playing TF2
t.40 hours
40 hours of full game is better than 40 hours of half game
It technically fits the bill of pay2win, in that there are a frickton of weapons and if you haven't been playing for years already the best and fastest way to get them is to buy them... but that said, I'm pretty sure you can get literally every weapon that isn't a reskin for less than $5 total.
Correct,Especially some of the class unlocks in this list
>counters
Shoot them with your gun. if it doesn't work try your other gun. Finally, if you run out of ammo, try hitting them with your melee weapon.
A medic played optimally should never be dying to spy.
Your big threat is a class that completely relies on you looking in a certain direction and your primary doesn't require you even be looking at the player you're healing. You have no reason to not just be looking in all directions at all times.
pyro counters demoman
>point and click
>high skill
(you)
>sniper
>high skill requirement
Black person how do you not understand it after fricking years of bots
sniper is so fricking one dimensional and stupid that you don't even need a pilot if you just hook it up to an aimbot
every other class needs an actual human driver to do good
spy does not have a high skill ceiling
But
Cranking up my interp so I can face stab people
>janky head hitboxes
>janky back hitboxes
>the four dozen different trickstabs
>learning how to optimize your movement across the map, the odd paths that you can cross while invisible
>learning how to trick players from clever movement
He's the hardest class in the game.
Engineer is a god damn RTS where you have to be constantly managing your metal, moving buildings around, maintaining them and fending off the entire enemy team while figuring out what you should prioritize, your life or one of your buildings. There's a lot of quick thinking you gotta do and it's generally a very stressful class to play.
back hitboxes
shut up homosexual you get way more lucky facestabs than you get failstabs
heavy is more difficult than eng
Nah, heavy just needs tracking and some positioning, engineer at least needs some idea of how to spend your metal and place your buildings well unless you're playing exclusively against braindead f2ps.
the tracking and positioning are much more difficult than spending metal and placing buildings, which take no skill at all really. It's a little trial and error at best or straight up copying locations. Eng takes way less effort and skill to play. Everybody even remotely familiar at the game can play eng effectively
>rts
is this a joke?
>the tracking and positioning are much more difficult than spending metal and placing buildings, which take no skill at all really
>tracking
>fricking around on 2fort as an engineer
>this one enemy medic is on the mic
>asks me to use the wrangle so he can pass through
>just as he's passing by, an enemy spy uncloaks in front of the sentry
>fling the mouse around to shoot him
>accidentally kill the medic
Soldier and sniper absolutely have a higher skill ceiling than spy.
Nah, it takes way more skill to be a peak performance spy than any other class in the game. He's the weakest class in the game and the hardest to learn.
Scout has the highest skill floor because he has the least margin of error
Sniper requires aim to be effective, but there's hardly any punishment for missing shots unless you're getting countersniped. Spy has his cloak, a tool that lets you position yourself advantangeously with zero skill required.
Scout requires both aiming and dodging to work and you have no free advantages given to you by your loadout or map/game design such that certain maps are practically impossible to play Scout on
Using cloak effectively is what sets good spies apart. For example, anyone who uses the cloak and dagger is most likely bad and wasting a lot of time.
here's how to tell if a spy is good based on his cloak
Invis Watch:
>he knows how to route himself across ammo packs and metal to spend basically his entire life invisible unless he's either killing someone or dying
Cloak and Dagger
>if he is using his mic to relay information to his team and coordinate strikes with them
Dead Ringer
>he's not. he's compensating for his inability to sneak around. and his ego is only protected by how good he is (or isn't) at using the gun and how oblivious the other team is.
Spy is a luck based class. Your opponents either turn around or they don't, you have little control over it. People use the DR to mitigate that luck.
>spy is luck based
>instead of getting into position when the opponents are distracted, I will use the obvious feign to guarantee that anyone above room-temperature IQ will turn around with 100% certainty
play against people who aren't sedated, champ
Bro, DR spies get into position as well (unless doing gunspy of course). The difference is that they're able to get away if the enemy turns around where the other watches would leave you dead.
Or you can take the gunspy pill and play as a slow scout that can turn invisible and see your healthbar
>you must play the way I do or you are bad
found the f2ps who don't play spy
I've been an invisiwatch spy since vanilla tf2. blame valve for nerfing dead ringer. cloak and dagger has always been a noob trap. stay mad
>he doesn't use the cloak and the dagger to hang around enemies and spam the "Spy!" line undisguised, making tons of enemies waste their time shooting air and backtracking
this is more impact than anything else you could do playing spy 'properly'
C&D is perfect for when you want to get a specific stab (like a medic with uber) since you can position yourself in an ideal spot and uncloak at the right time and not be forced out of it. Also good for relaying info to your team
Sniper and Spy are infamous for being useless team fodder when they lack the skill to do the bare minimum. Not to imply that Scout doesn't also require skill to be at least decent but those two are on a whole new level of useless. At least Scout can do chip damage, throw milk at people and help with capturing points, so there's more room to play like shit for him. Spies who frick up stabs or snipers who miss shots might as well not be playing the game.
>a tool that lets you position yourself advantangeously with zero skill required.
Not bumping into enemies, memorizing ammo pickups to restore cloak and optimizing your movement so you can reach those safe spots in time, being quick to grab ammo on the floor and managing your cloak carefully all require skill.
>Scout requires both aiming and dodging to work and you have no free advantages given to you by your loadout or map/game design such that certain maps are practically impossible to play Scout on
Aiming and dodging isn't just a Scout thing. TF2 is built around burst damage weapons so learning how to remain evasive while landing shot is relevant to pretty much every class except for Heavy. He also does have loadout advantages in the form of his secondaries, as he is able to harass enemies with the cleaver and mad milk, and unlike sniper's jarate, it's easier for him to do so because he's the fastest class in the game that is designed around picking his fights. Now, To be fair, the cleaver does require skill to land hits. I'll say that map advantage is probably his biggest concern, as he is not good defensively while snipers will have an easier time with finding good sightlines (specially in pl maps). Spies depend on ammo pickups and maps big enough that the enemy team isn't just condensed into the same spot.
The problem with the things you can name as "skill" for Sniper and Spy is that neither require direct engagement with the enemy; in fact, the entire point of both classes is to avoid direct engagements wherever possible. And direct engagements are always going to require more skill than just memorizing a few things on a map. Everyone understands that Engineer and Medic take minimal skill to be effective and it's for this same reason that they do (the difference being that neither of them even have to aim and everything comes down to, at most, whether they m2 at the right moment)
>At least Scout can do chip damage, throw milk at people and help with capturing points, so there's more room to play like shit for him. Spies who frick up stabs or snipers who miss shots might as well not be playing the game.
Sans the milk, Snipers and Spies can also help in the way you said Scouts could. And of course both can additionally provide intel better than Scout provided your team bothers to communicate. But as mentioned Scout has lower margin of error. A Sniper that misses can just shoot again. A Spy that whiffs can go invisible. But a Scout that can't dance around his enemies or that accidentally runs into multiple oppenents/sentries is going to take a 10 second timeout no matter what
>as he is not good defensively
and yet ironically Scout tends to be better on defense on account of not having to deal with sentries. If you want to talk about a lack of contribution, all it takes is one well placed sentry to completely wall Scouts from doing anything, and that's regardless of what map is being discussed.
I'll say that spy does interact directly with the team, quite a lot. Besides the obvious usage of disguises, his cloaked movement often has to take into account the movement of nearby enemies, as bumping into anyone can result in him getting killed instantly. His backstab also involves getting into melee range. Sniper is the case where I'll agree with you, he's a long range class in a game where mid to close range is the norm.
Medics 100% do engage directly, as they need to stick close to their patients on the front to get anything done. Crossbows help with safe healing but without the ubercharge they are underperforming. Staying alive requires skill. As for engineers, it depends on what kind of playstyle they are going for. Passive engineers can stay behind enemy lines and not worry about interacting with the enemy. Generally speaking, they'll have some interaction at least with flankers (if the map has the routes) and spies. I don't need to explain how fending off a spy is a feat that requires skill.
>But a Scout that can't dance around his enemies or that accidentally runs into multiple oppenents/sentries is going to take a 10 second timeout no matter what
It depends on what that Scout is doing. If the low skill Scout is hanging out with his team, he can still help with assists and that other stuff I mentioned. Snipers are interesting because they do not get hard punished by anyone other than other snipers, but spies and snipers are both selfish classes that generally work alone, they do not have as much interactivity with their allies as scout has. So, when they are doing their tasks, they won't be up close with the rest of the team like a Scout can, spies will be behind enemy lines and snipers will shooting from far away. In both situations, fricking up is their frick up, not the team's frick up, if that makes sense. Roaming Scouts are 100% on the same boat, however.
I ran out of space on this post.
Remember that we are talking about the lowest end of effectiveness here. This is why statements like
>Medics 100% do engage directly,
are not correct. On the lowest end, all medic needs to do is stand behind a corner healing someone who is in front of the corner shooting other people. He is in no danger, he doesn't have to aim or do anything than just stand there healing and that's all he has to do to be effective. Yeah, he has to look out for spies or whatever, but so does any other class
And this is why I said the things I did. When you mention stuff like Spy needing to time his ammo box pickups effectively, that kind of thing is effectively a single player experience. It doesn't require reaction time, it rarely requires improvisation. And in any case, I think there's ultimately no way you can make the case that moving past enemies that can't see you requires more skill than fighting enemies that can see you. Low end spies can usually get at least a single stab on unaware enemies, lowend Scouts can easily get instantly bodied by a single direct hit rocket without doing anything. It is definitely worth noting that Scout's primaries can't oneshot anything short of kunai spies or whatever. Scouts tend to have to land more total shots than their opponents do to win 1v1s
>all medic needs to do is stand behind a corner healing someone who is in front of the corner shooting other people
moron
You’ve never played as the spy, have you?
Soldier and Demo should be at the top of the chart, they have the highest ceilings in the game. Soldier could even go in the top left corner if you're so inclined.
Heavy has a very low ceiling but I think his floor is higher than some other classes, you need the basics of aim and situational awareness more than with say Pyro at a pub level.
Spy is cool but his ceiling isn't the highest in the game, Soldier and Demo just have more skill expression in their movement and aim than Spy. If you want to put him on the same row as Scout and Sniper that's fair.
I think Medic is higher floor and maybe lower ceiling than you have him here, he's pretty much all gamesense and positioning which makes him harder than you'd think at the low level. But outside of surfing rockets (which is universal tech) there's very little you need in the way of mechanics, it's probably much easier for a good combat class player to pick up Medic than the other way around. Maybe just reflect his position across both axes.
>Soldier and Demo should be at the top of the chart, they have the highest ceilings in the game.
They are on par with Scout and Sniper which should be fair enough. I can't undersell how horrible it is to learn Spy, half of his mechanics do not work as intended. It's like learning demo but everything feels as awkward as trimping.
Pyro vs Heavy is tricky when it comes to skill floors. Heavies have to worry about tracking but their playstyle is pretty straight forward. Pyros have the W+M1 thing but afterburn can still help with getting kills. I'll say that Pyros take more skill to do the basics because airblasting exists.
>I think Medic is higher floor and maybe lower ceiling than you have him here, he's pretty much all gamesense and positioning which makes him harder than you'd think at the low level.
In retrospect, I would consider him above soldier in skill floor since dying is much more meaningful to his class. I wouldn't consider gamesense and positioning because those are things that apply to any class.
>No natural counters
Soft counter at best
Any decent engineer or heavy ass rapes pyro
>Scout
>Heavy
>Sentry
>Sniper
>another Pyro with a shotgun
Reminder that every time you use the based shot to light a sniper on fire, fish on a dick gets 10 seconds closer to killing himself.
Do your part, lads.
The original is so fricking funny
reminder
post funny webms instead
>the enemy heavy's lifeless body in frame immediately soon after medic dies
cannon jumping shouldn't hurt that fricking much
the shields should've been the demoman's gunboats equivalent for grenade jumping, but it just offers zero self-damage resists at all, unlike how it was at launch where it actually DID provide self-damage resists.
I can't tell if you're a newbie or not. 99% of the stock weapons are superior to any of the upgrades. If you really want all of the weapons, then just 1) go to a third party site and buy a key and 2) go to scrap.tf and exchange that for every weapon with the majority left over. Don't bother posting here again.
main argument was that you could play for 800 hours and STILL not get all the weapons
if you get even a single tradeable weapon you already have access to every single other one through trading, and with 3 access to every loadout, not to mention you can free trial them so you actually just have access to every fricking weapon from the get-go (just not at the same time)
the other 2 points are invalidated by this but
>>if it fits your playstyle, it can be a straight upgrade.
not sure what this means, i'm guessing this comes from a compgay that thinks the only thing you should be playing is the accepted "best" loadout in any given game so it's a non-argument
>>if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?
6v6 comp is a completely different game from actual TF2, it's curated by a circlejerk of soldier/scout gays so anything that even minimally hinders these 2 classes gets the hammer
most banned shit there shouldn't be realistically
Stock is best in most situations, like demo, arguably soldier, scout, and spy. In anything else it's at least a good option if nothing else, like with shotguns for soldier, pyro, and heavy, and honestly only the medigun really matters for medic and ubers will always be fantastic.
>spy
no. diamond back and le'etranger are basically mandatory depending on the map, and spycicle is also a valuable alt if they have a decent pyro
Diamondback is only good if you're getting stabs and not insta-gibbing afterwards, l'tranger is good but not a direct upgrade on stock, and spycicle cucks you out of your knife if a single fire particle hits you.
>diamond back and le'etranger are basically mandatory
I simply can't imagine anyone playing this game and thinking this. Out of all the weapons that you could choose to describe as mandatory you pick a couple of meme pistols for the spy? You're either some tryhard dork who has 3000 hours on Uncle Dane's gay servers or you're some dweeb who played this game for 5 hours and spent 100 watching YouTube videos and unironically plays competitive.
>Uncle Dane's gay servers
QRD?
Have I been missing out?
Do they give out burly chest cosmetics?
I believe he is referring to them as gay (derogatory) and not as gay (homosexual).
Though the community Dane fosters is very Both and Very troony because autism
Sorry to disappoint. I just called it gay merely as an insult. I dislike him because of the "remove random crits" stuff and I hate the attitude towards TF2 that he has come to represent in my mind.
>btfos stock incredibly hard at dps and burst damage and can charge up to activate near god mode
>no one uses it
a. most TF2 players have dogshit aim to make use of the damage, especially when you're jumping like a lunatic
b. sentries still shut you down just as hard
>old soda popper where it gave you mini-crits for just existing
>no double-jump full stun (even through uber) sandman
>+50 max hp backburner
>the absolutely fricking useless sun-on-a-stick AND volcano fragment
>gas passer outside of mvm
>gas passer inside of mvm
some days you really have to wonder what the frick was going through valve's mind when initially designing and later iterating on these weapons.
it's like a coinflip whether they design something phenomenal or slooge onto a dartboard to see what shit to throw together
>the absolutely fricking useless sun-on-a-stick
It gives you afterburn resistance which can save your ass when you are out of combat.
nice reading comprehension dipshit.
I was talking about the launch day versions of those weapons.
They should make a new Pyro secondary called the Pilot Light. Basically it should be like a Detonator but instead of exploding on right click you get short range homing instead, that way I can more efficiently frick with Snipers (even with the danger shield, I imagine that'd be annoying as shit to play against)
nah. the sun on a stick should've been a pyro secondary that functions like a cross between the halloween fire spell and the flying guillotine.
it would have made way more sense than scout getting it
It would be easier to just nerf sniper's secondaries. Flinching is something that keeps the class in check.
>listening to comp gays
TF2 compgays were always enormous crybabies about weapons. TF2 comp sucks ass its not designed for it.
>Is TF2 P2W?
It used to be.
Hilariously, it wasn't pay to win when these item sets were a thing either, since basically all of them put you at a pretty severe disadvantage.
T. played before the polycount nerfs
croc set and dead ringer set were both overpowered
>Croc
Makes you way more ineffectual as a sniper and helpless at close range in exchange for winning sniper v sniper situations
>Dead Ringer
Literally just turn around, spies that use the dead ringer for cheese are still moronic
>What was the worst revolver and knife but you can pretend that the dead ringer will totally trick them when it makes the invis watch decloak noise
>Also no speed boost and literally ANYONE seeing you running around with the dumb fez immediately knows exactly what you're going to do
having to equip weapons isn't a downside, dumbass
If you had the weapons already equipped, you functionally did not lose anything by equippping the accompanying hat, some of the set bonuses did have downsides that you could make irrelevant too, like the saharan spy being paired with the dead ringer.
The worst one was the spy set that made the deadringer completely silent
This one at least sorta made sense because he also has to sacrifice headshots. Giving the scout 150hp for using an already OP loadout was completely insane
reminder if you forced every anti-comp pubBlack person into a match of NR6S they wouldn't last one round without screaming and crying
>"if those unlockables aren't straight up better, then why do they ban them in comp?"
Because comp bans literally like 80% of weapons for being "overpowered". They don't want to play TF2, they want to play counterstrike on TF2 maps.
>Because comp bans literally like 80% of weapons for being "overpowered"
It bans like 15% at the absolute most, there's just no reason to use shit like liberty launcher when stock exists.
>15%
mmhm
yeah
sure
mad milk and pocket pistol are OP
>noooo you can't heal, only medics should be able to heal!
back to quake
Imagine thinking these items would be fun to play against in sixes. have a nice day moronic pubBlack person.
Imagine thinking playing the game with over half of its content removed is fun
lol
you shouldn't have an operation on that brain cancer you have, that would be removing content from your body
nobody cares about 6s
Now post demo's banned weapons.
anon there are more than 8 weapons in the game you drooling fricking moron
Remember what they took from you.
literally the single worst weapon in the game
Pomson is worse, don't even pretend.
Zzzzzap
Cosmetics have no difference, sure, medics heal unusual wearers first, but that's the first encounter, after they play a while they can tell if they are worth pocketing or not. So it's not really an argument either.
if you didnt pay for tf2 I dont give a frick about your poorgay opinion
but bros I thought they banned everything?
>finally trade for all the set hats
>get all set bonuses
>some morons complain
>muh comp, muh p2w
You ruin everything you touch
The dumber thing is that there was a shitload of set hats because it had a crafting recipe the day it was released.
>But the wiki
The wiki is wrong
The price of the tokens exceeded the price of one
I mean the actual polycount set hats, the 4 ref 1 polycount weapon recipe.
That was in the game with the Mannconomy update.
>it had a crafting recipe day 1
no it fricking didn't, you dunce.
Unlike you, I was playing the game the day of, and there were no ways around it. You either paid money or you got lucky with a drop/trade
Wrong
Crafting blueprints were added like a week later. The outrage over the hats being pay2win happened before the update was even finished downloading
I'm not petty enough to redownload the polycount patch depot itself but I can assure you with the certainty of an autist with 15k+ hours logged in the game that you're wrong and I will not stand for your bullshittery
Crafting Blueprints were always in the game, they just added them to everyone's listed recipes.
Ganker pubscrub life cycle
>hear about comp
>feel good about their skills
>join a lobby, gets stomped mercilessly
>now whenever they see a compchad they seethe endlessly and cry in tf2 threads
>things that only happen in your schizo victim complex mind palace
No anon, for real, the other 100k tf2 players that we aren't pretending are russian bots right now totally all joined a TF2 tournament over a 2k pot
It's not like historically throughout the game's entire lifespan the competitive scene has been severely disliked
We just hate them because they're so cool otherkin and we just don't understaaaaand them maaan
No one cares about comp rules, yet compgays keep trying to dictate how everyone should play
the funniest bit is that they b***h about bans because they think that the random f2p that just dropped the weapon represents how it's supposed to be
I played one game of official comp just to have a taste and you understand why they ban shit very fricking quickly
vacc and wrangler are just pure homosexualry
>wrangler
>comp
who the frick plays engie in 5cp?
last holds
Competitive don't exclusively play 5cp. It's actually considered meta to have an engie on your team whenever there is a set-up time to take advantage of.
sounds about right
pretty much true, it's always sour grapes
How hard it is to make a special mode with special rules for the special people?
Why try to change the entire game?
I hate compgays because they get fun items nerfed and also killed the game with MYM, TF2's worst update ever that still lingers over this game like a foul fricking stench
The post that killed Ganker.
the best unlockables are usually achievement items so no
>is.. is that a comp medal? NOOOO!!!!! SAVE ME Black personMAN!!!! C-COMPgayS RUINED TF2!!!!!!
>autism overdrive
O
K
This game is unique in this regard, it's in a very awkward spot.
There is no way you can play it competently without paying (or playing for ungodly amounts of hours). But it's not "pay2win" because all it takes is one single key for you to unlock all weapons. After that, money won't help you in any way.
This game is closer to pay2play than anything else.
It is pay to win insofar as you needing to pay to chat in a team based game. It is not a lot of money but it is technically a paywall. A team that can chat and speak with each other is at an advantage over one that cannot fully.
>Comp bans as an argument
They literally ban anything that would encourage a more diverse meta, watch this and tell me if half of these aren't bullshit
Hell they ban certain players from playing certain classes, they just like abusing the ban button
Comp Tf2 isn't real TF2, and shouldn't be used when making arguments about the main game
>play only 4/9 regularly
>only play 5cp with occasional koth
>plenty of pointless bans
Also don't forget to this day they still pretend like Meet Your Match, the literal COMPETITIVE UPDATE was not caused by them because they weren't allowed to ban maps/items/people from playing tf2.
>they still pretend like Meet Your Match, the literal COMPETITIVE UPDATE was not caused by them
It wasn't, Valve wanted their own eSport a la Overwatch and went off to make their own thing separate of the existing scene. The feedback they were given by comp players was more or less ignored, compgays actually started changing their rulesets to try and appeal to Valve's vision of the game, and matchmaking turned out to be pure, unrepentant sewage enjoyed by nobody. It should take about 5 seconds of browsing teamfortress.tv to realize that no class limits 6v6 2fort was not any compgay's decision.
Shut up
>2fort
Sorry, I meant Turbine. Which I think is still in the Valve comp matchmaking rotation, to show how much Valve gives a frick about what anyone else thinks.
You know I'm right, you just want your boogeyman.
Black person valve didn't listen to anyone with meet your match
absolutely fricking no one got what they wanted
Well no shit, Valve wasn't about to let the most autistic destructive part of the community start banning people and items from the game
Yeah, instead they destroyed the perfectly fine quickplay in favor of a shitty overwatch-like matchmaking literally nobody asked for that had to be patched like 10 times just to be half decent.
>literally nobody asked for
It's not going to become true if you keep saying it
>It's not going to become true if you keep saying it
Who the frick wanted matchmaking beyond Valve themselves? NOBODY complained about quickplay beyond some nitpicks, it was a system that worked and put you in community servers.
I hated quickplay because it dried out the servers I frequented, never realized it would be replaced by something more vile.
Believe it or not but before MYM actually happened a lot of idiots kept hailing it as a great change that was going to fix tf2.
The original context of this was describing the average quickplay game and suggesting matchmaking would make the game something better. Even now tf2gays refuse to acknowledge that the entire message behind this rant aged really badly.
Nobody asked for Casual Matchmaking
All that was known leading up to MYM was that a comp mode was coming, which doesn't sound too bad, comp players get their own section.
But then the update dropped and along with the expected comp mode they decided to change quickplay for no fricking reason
it's not going to become false no matter how much you b***h about it you bitter contrarian shitter
valve did the equivalent of being tasked to install a toilet and then digging a ditch and covering it with a plank with a hole in it and telling you to shit in it
what was hilarious is that they locked everyone's fov in comp mode to like 70
we should stop responding to competitivegays or snipergays. they know what they did but so long as they're allowed to still be part of the normal tf2 community then they haven't really been punished.
>The Dragon's Fury could result in people running a full time Pyro because of its damage? BAN IT
Yeah god forbid anyone ever have to deal with something outside the meta
It was banned because it was buggy on release
I'm aware that was the primary reason, but the fact that he still had to dance around 'um actually it has high damage and could easily kill multiple people which is bad' is moronic. It comes at the cost of crippling airblast which is the only reason people use Pyro in comp, so it's not a direct upgrade by their standards by literally any metric.
The only argument you could make for a P2W aspect of the game is how taunts like the high five let you silently corner peek in the third person tbh
Which is such a niche use that you rarely see it happen anymore
There isn't a single unlockable that invalidates it's Stock version. Saying TF2 is P2W is one of the most braindead things I've heard recently. It requires a total ignorance of the game and how it functions in order to persist.
what about pyro melees?
People vastly overestimate how bad the stock fire axe is at dealing out reliable damage and the utility of the sidegrade axes.
no I mean it literally has a direct upgrade
stock fireaxe is objectively inferior to the third degree which at best a terrible but niche weapon only potentially good in random crits servers
pretty much any stock melee is not going to be the best pick in any circumstance with the exception of maybe the bottle and the stock knife
>using melee on Scout
>stock fire ax has a direct upgrade, also pyro has a movement speed booster and a way to get more HP from health packs, both vastly more valuable than melee damage on a class with a fricking flamethrower
>stock melee damage vs 2 flavors of movement speed booster on the 2nd slowest class or alternatively trolldier meme
>stock bottle is good for standard demos, but even then skullcutter is worth looking into
>more movement on the slowest class in the game or guaranteed 5 seconds of crits
>Jag is almost a straight upgrade for turtle engies, gunslinger flatout is a straight upgrade for battle engies
>not running the ubersaw (or in niche cases, the amputator)
>bushwhacka invalidates stock almost entirely
>stock knife is solid in any game that you're not confident about getting your first stab in, otherwise, kunai/BE are obviously superior
>bushwhacka invalidates stock almost entirely
This is the only one I disagree with, because stock sniper kukri still has uses, since you can run things like razorback or even darwin and bushwacka becomes worse.
>and the stock knife
spycicle is a direct upgrade unless you're trying to suicide stab
>lose spycicle to fire
>do not lose stock knife to fire
did you miss the
>unless you're trying to suicide stab
because otherwise being hit by a pyro is usually a death sentence
>lose spycicle to fire
>lose life to fire
hmm
Imagine CR7 seething at kids for playing on a smaller field.
>You can't play on dirt it has to be grass TSUUUU
Generally speaking stock is the most viable loadout in most scenarios. Yes some stock melees are shit but with stock you should be able to learn the ropes and slowly get good at the classes.
You're also encouraged to try and get achievements for the milestone weapons
And if you really want every weapon just add 5$ to your steam wallet (minimum amount you can add), buy 2 keys from the Mann Co. Store (give you premium account), and then use a trading site to convert those keys into metal and trade it for every weapon, with enough spare metal to get some cosmetics.
I'm surprised they didn't use the ConTracker to have free weapon contracts like they did for the Jungle Inferno weapons
only stock PRIMARIES are typically superior. otherwise it's almost never the case
>Secondaries
Shotgun (except on Heavy) and Pistol are fine
Stickies and Medigun are the meta choices
SMG is kinda shit but not horrible either
>melees
bat, shovel, fire axe, fists and bonesaw are pretty bad compared to other unlocks. The rest are fine
>pyro medic demo spy for stock secondaries
>engi and demo for stock melee
>stock pistol is fricking garbage
I don't get what your point is
That's 6/18 stock secondaries and melees that are worth using. so addressing the original point, no most stock weapons that aren't primaries are trash. 2/3rds roughly in fact
Where'd you get that number? I'd say the only bad secondaries and melees would be
>Bat
>Shovel
>Fire Axe
>Fists
>Bonesaw
>SMG
which means 13/18 are worth using. Yes many have better unlocks overall but I wouldn't call them trash. They're perfectly usable, especially for new players
The backpack space is more of a problem imo. You can only store 50 items as a F2P, and there's ~135 unique weapons total (not counting reskins).
Lol no. You can do just fine with stock everything if you're even remotely skilled at the game. Plus not having a moronic team helps too.
i dont get why people keep b***hing about this game, it's still very much playable even if not in its best state
my only problem with it is the casual matchmaking which 90% of the time puts me in one-sided matches, this didn't happen with quickplay
unfortunately this one single problem makes the game unplayable for me
Everybody's main problem is casual matchmaking, if they got rid of it and just went back to having valve servers in the browser and let you drop in and out of games without some kind of worthless "experience penalty" most of the problems people are having would disappear, and that includes bots.
>play demo or pay 2$
You can buy a key (~2$) to get all the weapons and a cheap loadout on every character.
But if you want to spend no money and don't want to rely on weapon drops you can play Demoman which is the only class who has no better alternative than stock weapons. All the other class benefit at least from getting a slightly better melee weapon, but not demo.
Reminder that the Market Gardener is overpowered.
Is the stock Scout melee objectively worse than the fish?
Technically yes because you can figure out if a spy feigned his death with the fish.
It's the same thing lol.
get ownt by
Yeah but it's like the fricking third degree and fireaxe, it'll never be that useful.
Straight upgrades are a meme. Something with a significant advantage and a negligible downside is always going to be far more useful than something with a marginal advantage and zero downside.
It's why despite third degree being a "straight upgrade on stock", no one uses it. But you can bet your ass the other pyro melees are going to shit on stock regardless.
No one talks about straight upgrades because they think it's best in slot, homosexual, people talk about it to point Valve sucks at balancing
But significant upgrades are a far more blatant balancing issue. For one thing they are actually worth using.
Again, no one is saying otherwise, they're just pointing an inconsistency in the game. Every alt weapon has a downside except the few ones that don't.
I think Valve did a pretty decent job balancing the Third Degree.
Since it has the hidden downside
>Will make your brain fall out and you try to run directly into an armed enemy gamer with a medic with your melee out
Yeah but it's the perfect weapon to counter one heavy with 5 medic bots healing him for some autistic reason
Honestly and it's not just because the Mann Up community is dogshit and genuinely deserve to lose their stranglehold on austrailiums, I think it's fine if things are a bit quirky in mvm
Pyro mains don't give a shit about fireaxe or third degree. And it only comes up when noobs suggest it or "stock weapon" discussions come up. Both in this thread. Everyone Pyro knows that there are tons of objectively better options depending on your build and playstyle. The Powerjack is absolutely mogs on stock/third degree.
>negligible downside
a straight upgrade has NO downside, moron
something being better in most situations isn't the same as one that's better in literally all situations (barring situations where you're intentionally not playing the game)
in TF2's entire lifespan, there have been a handful of actual real straight upgrades
>most of the launch day polycount sets
>third degree vs fire axe
>solemn vow vs bonesaw
>holy mackerel vs bat
>rainblower vs flamethrower because of the tauntkill
>technically the bread throwables vs jarate/mad milk due to physics extending their range
and only a handful more were straight upgrades in nocrit servers due to that being their only downside
>launch day powerjack gave extra damage and heal on kill
>launch day blutsauger had no crits as its only downside, the difference in passive healing didn't exist yet
the bread throwables vs jarate/mad milk due to physics extending their range
Seriously?
You werent kidding, that's a very noticeable difference in range. Aren't these items nearly 10 dollars on the Mann Co. store or some shit?
Reading comprehension you fricking moron.
>Something with a significant advantage and a negligible downside
I wasn't describing straight upgrades here
> is always going to be far more useful than something with a marginal advantage and zero downside
I was describing straight upgrades here
Hence why I said they're a meme. Because the non-straight upgrade is going to be more useful despite having a downside.
>Polycount pack
Not a straight upgrade since you're incurring ALL of the downsides of the weapons in the sets
The Sniper set was so objectively good it's probably the biggest reason they stopped making them lol
>The sniper set was so objectively good
>No quick scoping
>Need to fully charge for 150 damage
>Can't extinguish yourself and take extra fire damage
>Bushwacka is pretty objectively terrible without jarate
Yeah no.
The polycount pack sets were removed because despite literally having a crafting recipe day one and you know requiring you to use the entire set. Vocal morons screamed bloody murder because
>Tha hats have statszz
>put you out of 100% charge shot bodyshot
>makes you immune to headshots
yeah gee i wonder why an item set that hardcounters the only class in the game that can counter Sniper (itself) might be a tad silly
Well yeah if we imagine a scenario in which ONLY the upsides apply it only has upsides.
Hardcountering your only hard counter is conceptually so incredibly valuable that it going "ackshually" is a bit silly
Hats should not have stats. Removing the Polycount sets is one of Valve's only good decisions. Even if you think none of the sets were egregious, it set a bad precedent. It would have gotten worse and more P2W in the future.
>have weapons equipped
>no bonus
>equip hat too
>receive bonus
you're moronic if you think I'm comparing with stock.
You're thinking about in a vacuum.
You have to equip the ENTIRE SET, and accrue all of the downsides that come with them.
And this is before the removal of damage spread, which could actually make things like damage penalties matter.
ignoring aspects of trade it is inherently pay to win because you can pay to unlock potentially advantageous weapons before you would naturally unlock them. In principle weapons should be strictly unlock only but the fact you can go to a trade site and pay .50c-1$ for every weapon in the game makes it a non-issue
kunai is a crutch
Does anyone want to play Mann up?
yeah but you can get all the weapons for like 2 dollars
>2 dollars
there's 140ish weapons
ref is 18 weapons and $0.03
you can get every weapon in the game for 25 cents
how do I cope with being a moneylet that can't unbox shit due to no money
Don't gamble and just get what you want
Test
Well it's a shooter so yeah, the guy that pays for a 240hz monitor wins.
>Pick heavy with default Loadout
>Always come top of the leaderboard with over twice the kills of the next highest player
This game is boringly easy tbdesu
It's not pay2win if the whole collection of items costs like 50 cents.
the only real upgrade is the direct hit, the rest is just for having fun, the direct hit is for making asses bleed
t. solly main
Valve: projectiles can't pass through teammates because it would be unfair to be killed by something you couldn't see
Also Valve: pic related.
Valve: melee hits will prioritize hitting a teammate that's colliding with you over an enemy because...uhh...hey anyone wanna grab something from the snack bar?
Fun fact, they disabled that specific behavior for MvM robots but for whatever reason they think it's an important balancing decision to keep in PvP