>is the worst mtg format in youre path
what went wrong?
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>is the worst mtg format in youre path
>is the worst mtg format in youre path
what went wrong?
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t. /mmg/
To take the bait, EDH is both the best and worst format. For better or worse higher life totals combined with 3 independent opponents instead of 1 means that cards that are bad in 60 card constructed are good in EDH and vise versa. Ironically even though aggro is usually shit EDH is still more open than 60 card constructed, your deck doesn't need to be super optimized for efficiency to get to play the game so you can get away with dumb shit like artist tribal or overcosted "fun" cards. Having the commander itself be a card that you always have access to is great for deckbuilding, as engine or synergy gimmicks are now consistent enough to consider exploring even if they don't effectivly end the game upon resolution.
But the gameplay itself can suck as it lends itself to double dealing, kingmaking, and holding grudges over multiple games. More than 60 card constructed EDH needs players that can tolerate each other and handle their shit like adults, especially with how long games can go plus the amount of downtime each player has.
We had multiplayer 60 card formats before EDH. Emperor, Windows, Chaos, Grand Melee.
Not to mention team games like 2HG and 2v2.
Multiplayer formats aren't exclusive to EDH
wizards paying attention to it ruined it, but it was shaky even before that mainly just because multiplayer magic isn't really great to begin with
>rules are fundamentally incompatable with decades worth of card design
>]only viable deck archetype is turbo combo because of how the format works
>only tolerable with a close group of friends who all unanimously agree on custom rules
>games last minimum 30-45 minutes so non-games where you get fricked by luck feel even worse than any other format
>Rules commitee does nothing and cant ban shit without wotc's approval or else their relationship with them goes out the window
>only shield against the numerous issues of the format is to play super casual
>except mtg is insanely expensive and for the same amount of money you could get minis+dice+combat map for a tttrpg, several miniature armies, or a dozen board games that are all better designed
essentially people who like commander like the concept of commander itself, not actually playing it. They like the pretty pictures and feeling like their deck is finally up to snuff with all their fancy alt arts and old cards. And then they play it and get dabbed on by a deck composed of the newest mythics/rares with the most dogshit digital art imaginable that combos off on turn 4
>Viable
Commander is an excuse to jaw jack with friends, I know you wouldn't understand that having no friends , but playing to win is what ruins commander,.
real friends dont let other friends get into mtg in the first place mr. larper
I was in to MtG for nearly a decade before I met my current group of friends back in high school.
>wrong
>very wrong
>very wrong
just say you're autistic or have anxiety anon, my best games have been with randos
>true
But this is largely a deck building issue. Poor decks experience "bad luck"
>true
And that's a good thing
>wrong
>wrong
youre legitimately moronic if you think commander's rules set isnt flawed as frick
>thing
>heh if you don't believe thing ur dumb
It's fine. Just about everything you listed is the opinion of a nogames moron
>no arguement
>muh no games
Ive been playing edh since 2012. I even have the 2014 green precon with the big art freyalise (best girl tbh). I can even go find my posts in the edh general where I would set up games via webcam
Yeah I can type a bunch of lies too anon
weak bait
last (you)
Whats the bait? You made a bunch of moronic claims and are now mad that they weren't just jerked off
problem 1 with commander: 40 life per player
this instantly invalidates any and all aggressive strategies, makes combo insanely safe to play with very little creature interaction, and you can piss it all away for cards/mana/fricking whatever with any of blacks resource conversion effects. Any form of combat damage win is done via a pseudo combo of cheating in craterhoof or the legend being so fricking busted it can overcome that issue (yuriko/winota) which is the exception not the rule
problem 2 with commander: 4 players
magic fundamentally was not built for 1v1v1v1 free for all. Not only does this make 1:1 removal and interaction suck, but interaction can be actively detrimental to the player by removing something keeping another player in check, or using removal and instantly regretting it as the next player makes a swingy play without even needing to play around your open mana and cards in hand. Ive won countless games with 0 player skill or thought just because the opponent made the objectively best decision to remove some big thread, letting me combo off in peace or make a swingy enough play for it to be GG.
If a card isnt generating insane amounts of value or outright winning you the game it's trash. Why play control when you could use interaction to protect a game winning combo? Why try to kill an opponent with combat damage when you can pod your way through your entire deck with yisan for a win on turn 4?
This also means the only good interaction for value is wipes which drag games even longer. Especially in lower power play when the late game is back to back wipes as everyone struggles to recover only to get hit by more wipes.
This isnt even some kind of self policing issue within play groups either. Players naturally want to make their decks better and all roads in commander lead to combo. It's natural selection but for a card game always selecting for combo
>instantly invalidates all aggro strategies
As I thought. You don't actually play the game lol. Not wasting my time reading more from a nogames tard
>cant refute it
post your decklists
Believe it or not anon just because you spent a bunch of time spewing a bunch of bullshit doesn't mean I have to treat it like anything other than the moronic shrivel it is. There's nothing to refute, you are simply incorrect. Combo is not played by the vast majority of EDH players. You would know this, if you actually played the game lol
Nogames
I play very much which is why I know all those points are false. I'd say I see combo in roughly 20% of the decks u see. It's practically unplayed. All his other points are much the same, some outsider looking in, whose gaze is caught by the flashy shit which in turn causes him to miss out on the other 80+%
>cant post decklists
>cant even say anything beyond "nuh uh"
>doesnt know shit about the format or game as a whole
this larp sucks
These are all obvious problems with the format. Anyone could glean these after a few games. But where are you solutions? How could something so fundamentally flawed become so popular? It can't ONLY be because people have shit taste.
>how could something so...
The simple answer is its not lmao. The reason the format gets more popular every year, the reason the format ever became popular to begin with is because the problems you guys see simply aren't there. And the game is enjoyed at very levels of competitiveness by all who play it. You just have an autistic solipsistic nature that refuses to acknowledge reality and must instead concoct all these theories for why no one agrees with them
His problem one is the only one I actually agree with anon. The format does need a massive overhaul though. A complete audit of the ban list might be enough on its own but I wish there would be even more extreme measures. 30 life is objectively better(the /edhg/ spammer is right). Commander damage would be lowered or outright removed.
On an even more radical note something to combat being mana screwed or flooded should be implemented. I realize the danger in people cutting lands to take advantage of this rule. I also never conceptualized anything concrete. The price should be steep. It's just an idea that's occurred to me eveytime it happens to me in decks with the appropriate balance. It's one thing to get screwed in 60 card competetive. But I'm already wasting time playing edh. Am I really spending all that time shuffling up and listening to the inane blathering of lgs randoms just to not draw a 4th land for 6 turns?
Fun fact: 21 life is the most awkward, as in under vs overshooting, amount of damage a legendary can do with all legends currently available and with power boosts taken into account. Lowering it to 20 alone would be huge
They printed something that let's me exactly one shot in that really gay roaring 20s set. 30 life no commander damage should be enough.
>21 life is the most awkward, as in under vs overshooting, amount of damage a legendary can do with all legends currently available and with power boosts taken into account. Lowering it to 20 alone would be huge
The fact it is 21 is basically based on an outdated playstyle since it was set at 21 because all the original elder dragons (the only legal commanders when Sheldon and his small group first played EDH) took three swings to lethal an opponent in prolonged games. Nowadays, very few commanders have 7 or more power by default and evasion to really divide that 21 into a 3 turn lethal.
Commander damage should be 19 or 23 because those a prime numbers and that's funnier because it means nobody has an exact X turn clock
The original point of commander damage was to have a exact X (3 originally) turn clock so games didn't drag on
>massive overhaul of the banlist
Dogshit opinion to start is not a good look let's see if it gets any better!
>30 objectively
No, and definitely not objectively. You could prefer it ans find it to subjectively be a more enjoyable experience. But there's definitely been no legitimate look at this to say one way or the other. I would add though, if it's 30 to make it easier on aggro then you're just wrong. Aggro is thriving.
>commander damage
Pretty shit opinion but I had low expectations to begin with. Commander damage is necessary for many reasons. It opens up new strategies, it is a direct counter to absurd lifegain which otherwise is only really dealt with by equally absurd token spam, offers up a new wincon as well!
>mana
You don't play magic. You should've started with this so I could just ignore you.
The solution? There is no solution without immense sweeping changes. The lowering of life being the major one followed by an overhaul of the banlist. But ultimately the biggest solution to commander is to play so insanely casually you never notice these issues. Except commander is expensive as frick, features the most predatory ip holder in the table top hobby sphere, is currently being ran into the ground for profit, and has no future
The solution to commander? Dont play it and dont play magic at all. Both of the mtg generals saw a massive exodus of oldgays because anyone with half a brain moved onto greener pastures
>greener pastures
good one
Greener pastures includes not playing mtg
>greener pastures is literally no pasture
Now tell the class which fotm weebshit game you jumped to.
dry land is not a myth, I have seen it
>troondom
(you will never) Pass
Not him but you unify game the rules. singleton with 60 cards as the standard across all formats, commanders do not count towards deck total.
Now you've mentally shrunk the amount of formats to old ones/new ones/rotation, with modifiers being draft, pauper, commander, and 4 player mode.
Now you only need 4 decks to play every format. old one, modern one, pioneer one, standard one. No one plays the old or standard stuff, so now you've reduced it to only 2 decks, modern and pioneer, with a commander for each deck incase you play it.
You can obviously build a bunch for each variation, but that mental condensing will be a huge draw, and players would be much more willing to try out new formats when their deck can work in alot of them. You've now created 3 new formats, standard commander, modern commander and pioneer commander. Paradoxically, this has also increased the playerbase of all formats since that same deck can be passed around like a hooker at a bachlor party.
>problem 1 with commander: 40 life per player
I actually prefer this because it means that you can take a few bad rounds of combat and not immediately die. It gives you a chance to recover and come back.
>He has 4 player pods
Me and my friends usually do three-ways but we have a proper pod of 4, it's not so bad.
40 life would absolutely be fine if they just BANNED THE FRICKING COMBO PIECES. Obviously combo shouldn't be out right banned but pic related kind of cards shouldn't be allowed in the format
uhmmmm sweety? That's too much work for the RC so just uhmmmmm just rule 0 it lol????
Can't take all the competitive commander gays seriously as long as bullshit like this is legal. The whole format is just for weenies that couldn't cut it in legacy
I always liked singleton as a format (with friends) since you got to see/play a healthy mix of cards and it was basically kitchen table Magic.
I have no idea how this got to be the major format, let alone the one people get introduced to the game with. On paper it seems like the most new player unfriendly experience possible as it's got tons of rule baggage and complex interactions from all over the game's history
simple answer is all other formats and the game as a whole were mismanaged so hard the only way to enjoy it was to escape to the fan format. Which is now being milked to death by wotc
This. MTG used to be about glorious tournaments and crazy top8s in standard. Standard became shit. The same happened with Modern, which used to be a legitimately insanely fun format, but then wotc decided it was a good idea to kill cards and decks just because they wanted to shake things up. You have legacy and vintage but they're basically niche formats, and they both have their insanity. They've really ruined a lot of the fun with those formats so people turned to EDH and commander as a way to find fun.
I deeply miss the era modern was more relevant. It's been ages at this point.
A fan format which you can get into with 40$ intro decks that are relatively viable, something Wizards refuses to do for the rest of the formats for fear of devaluing staples to heavily.
>40$
60$ and also those starter decks are so bad you save money buying the singles individually from a 3rd party than buying the actual wotc product
The first couple of commander precon releases were worthwhile in terms of both card value and initial deck playability. Dunno how badly Wizards have shit the bed since then, since I haven't cared about Magic in several years. I don't remember them being that expensive back then, either.
Anon is either smoking something or doesn't know what the frick he's talking about because
>The first couple of commander precon releases were worthwhile in terms of both card value and initial deck playability.
Is still absolutely true, moreso today than ever. Precons from the last 2 years are typically more competently put together and have a coherent gameplan, and even the worst value precons still typically have about 1.5x their cost inside compared to buying the singles.
And besides, even if they have some inferior cards, Commander being multiplayer is more forgiving to weaker decks than 1v1, unless the pod runs full powered CEDH decks or something
the initial precons were made before wotc realized they could shit 100 .01$ cards into a box and sell it to you for 60$ and people would buy it. Nowadays precons come with borderline unplayable land bases and so much chaff and nonbo anti-synergy it feels phoned it.
Also you forget the OG precons featured absolutely busted shit that had insane value for other formats like the 3cmc merfolk that was like 200$ a pop
Even just last year the Exit from Exile precon was very well tuned for its price and only cost 40$ from target or Wall-Mart.
Sure against a proper CEDH deck its going to fold imedately and the manabase wasn't amazing but in semi-casual Commander it can hold its own and I have seen it hold its own personally.
And they're still more viable for their format than other format precons. Walking into FNM as a noob fricking sucks, you don't actually get to do anything and just watch as tuned decks run you over without fully realizing what you're losing to. Dropping into a commander pod with a precon at least gives you cards that have text in the format they were printed for.
The 20 dollar commander decks were pretty solid introductions to certain archtypes.
>On paper it seems like the most new player unfriendly experience possible as it's got tons of rule baggage and complex interactions from all over the game's history
This is completely true, but you have to realize that new players typically want to play with their friends, so if their friends are only playing commander (as many players do these days) then your options are dive into the deep end or simply don't play.
Are there even any recent preconstructed 60 card casual decks? No more thematic duel decks, no more planechase last I checked. I saw that Ravinca Clue Edition but that seems to be a weird mashup. Everything casual oriented seems to have been absorbed into commander.
The last ones were from WIlds of Eldrane.
I looked it up and it looks like an ongoing thing with one planned for Assassin's Creed and Bloomburrow coming up.
>The Starter Kit is a learn-to-play product aimed at new players, including instructional materials that guide two players through their first game. Each deck contains two Mythic Rare and six Rare cards. One rare is Traditional foil.
So there's still an easy entry point for 60 card casual play. Makes me wonder about that demographic of casual players who mash up whatever cards they have while being blissfully unaware of all the noise online.
I hope that in whatever state standard is in post-rotation they are FNM viable. Also mono-Red is around 100$ and is super viable right now, so thats good.
>mono-red is cheap and viable
red will always be there for us poorgays
The starter is way cheaper than a commander deck, is in any way worth it? My GF likes the cute animals and we can play kitchen table games.
Why tell us u have gf
How is this important
It's relevant for the post because I don't intent to play agains competitive fat fugs in a tournament. And also the complexity of the decks can't be excessive beyond moronation, like the doctor who cards.
I'm pretty bummed MH3 didn't come with modern precons, that would've gotten me into the format
t. commander idiot
>MODERN horizons set
>is more about pandering to commander and has commander precons
it's so fricking over for this game lmao
If this game survived November 2023 then it's not dying any time soon.
Its been mentioned before but MTG has at least another 10 years left in it, possibly more. But its continued existence will lead to a continued comanderization of the game and the continued degradation of its own IP towards crossover appeal.
They could've made a reasonably competitive mono-red burn deck for modern, most cards in there are pretty cheap.
It turns out that there's a lot more people wanting to play casual "fun" games than 1v1 competitive. There's a lot of Timmys and Johnys that want to play fundamentally non-competitive archetypes that can still shine in slower EDH games. Now, that doesn't mean Wizards didn't absolutely frick up constructed formats with shit design and powercreep, but there was always tension. There's also substantially less psychological pressure to win in commander: 100 cards singleton, multiple opponents, "just for fun", the other guy plays mana crypt, etc. You've got all the copium in the world.
The other problem is this . There's no casual entry point into 1v1 formats. Even if draft wasn't even less friendly for beginners than constructed and you could get over the fact that were buying overpriced piles of chaff to even play every week, you can't even get a working decks from drafting with the number of rares and mythics in decks.
Magic is like fighting games: the casuals that want fun, quirky free-for-all pick up matches will always outnumber by an order of magnitude the sweatlords that learn frame data. There's more money in selling bling and big bombs to casuals than power to grinders or access to drafters.
It has decent precons and thus is easy to get into from scratch. That's all it boils down, really. 60 card magic would be more popular if you had an entry point as easy and playable (doesn't need to be tier 1, but at least tier 2 and full of playsets). But that would require the designers to be able to predict the meta, and those are the people that let Oko and companion through. Commander doesn't really have a "meta" outside of CEDH events, so it's easier to put a bunch of themed cards together and call it a day.
It used to be cheap. And big goofy effects going off with four of your buddies is supposed to be fun.
It should be Timmy Valhalla.
60 card doesn't have an easy onramp anymore.
You used to be able to buy standard legal 60 card precons.
They weren't as good as homebrew but you could compete in FNM with them.
The only decks you can buy now are EDH.
Coupled with UB makes it easier to get into than classic MTG.
Agreed. Im coming back in, playing for a few months now (when I last played commander was not the biggest format) and I enjoy playing EDH but it is easily the least clear format. If you dont know what any of the cards your opponent is playing it is pretty annoying, and im not going to be like "what does that do?" For every card that hits the table
because of certain other card games focusing on keeping the aces of their respective decks out as long as possible
It's the same thing as to why team games are more popular than 1v1 videogames, can't take the blame when you lose and it doesn't feel like you "lose" a free for all even when there is only 1 "winner".
>On paper it seems like the most new player unfriendly experience possible
WRONG. Magicgays take for granted how much normies hate shelling out any amount of money for a manabase. Every non-rotating format wants players to pick up at LEAST (and I'm being generous here) 10 lands that cost 8-40 each, often just for two playsets of something. Commander is pitched as casual so most normies only have a couple for their deck. The problem is cost, not complexity. You can print 15 commander precons a year without fricking the market, but a modern precon with all the tools it would need to pick up and play at a reasonable price of entry to the format would have financegays throwing themselves off a bridge.
>would have financegays throwing themselves off a bridge
and this is a bad thing because???
Because it means they won't ever do it.
That's really it, not to mention that you don't have to adjust to a meta, just make sure the deck has a theme and the cards are generically decent.
Also makes it much easier to create a playable precon/starter product than 60-card Magic, where there is not only the matter of card prices but also the deck designer would have to somewhat predict the metagame to make something that is at least playable on a FNM level
60 card precons generally get raped at events, EDH precons have a fighting chance on everything but the highest-powered pods (also because of the multiplayer factor)
A series of 60-card modern precons reprinting all the Ravnica duals and Khans fetches would do wonders for onboarding people to modern but that ain't ever happening.
>got introduced by friend to MTG a year ago
>lets me play a commander precon against another one
>really enjoy it because of the funny cards with ridiculous effects
>get my own precon and start modifying it
>no idea what I'm doing really, but always great fun and manage to snag a win here and there
>friend now wants to introduce me to 60 card formats
>no idea what to look for or how to plan/build a deck
>can't just throw random shit in there because it simply won't work
>all my decks fail miserably and are unable to win anything
>try some netdecks, feel I like I'm starting to get a hang
>modify them, start losing every single game again
commander really is a brain-dead format that everyone can play. I have no idea where this sentiment comes from that 60 card formats are easier for beginners.
Commander is considered a more difficult because you have basically the entire swath of cards from across MtG to engage with and have to deal with bullshit corner case interactions, and if someone goes tryhard they can likely win by turn 2 or 3. It also dosne;t teach proper deckbuilding which seems to be where you got stuck.
The previous way people got into MtG was by buying a 60 card starter set that was kept deliberately simple and then building your collection by drafting the latest set('s) which was a limited pool of cards and mechanics that taught you deck building in a contained environment that likely lasted at least 10 turns minimum. Then you graduated to standard with a larger pool of cards and interactions after you felt prepared enough(the lowest in a healthy meta was like turn 4 against the super agro decks).
Nah you're totally right, commander is way easier to learn than proper magic. There's a ton of subtleties in traditional constructed formats that are really hard for new players to grasp and tend to really frick them over whenever they start to try to move beyond netdecking. People point to the corner case shit as the reason it's harder but those corner cases are exactly that, corner cases. It's probably not going to come up and if it does you can just learn what to do about it then since it's a casual format.
Everyone talking about starting with standard and working their way up to more complicated formats comes off as super disconnected from what new players are like to me. They're new, not moronic. It's a complicated game not like, THAT complicated.
But then you run into the issue where new players never learn because they are comfortable thanks to the allowances inherent to Commander. As anon stated he never got past just shoving random bullshit into a deck when deckbuilding is at least 40% if not more when it comes to winning.
That's a totally different issue than whether or not commander is easy to learn or unfriendly to new players.
>never got past just shoving random bullshit into a deck when deckbuilding
That's not something limited to just commander players, the average constructed player on arena can't deckbuild to save their life.
deckbuilding is not part of 60 card formats either, everyone just netdecks. At best you need to know how to side in your silver bullets that you also net decked
deckbuilding is for limited
It's not a competitive format, so furries spend thousands foiling out their cat tribal deck
In actual formats, we're playing to win in the way we enjoy the most
Commander players don't want to win, they want to show off how much they spent
>unofficial format
>has the biggest paypigs in the game
Jfc
>what went wrong
We let trannies and women into the hobby and now all the pickme basedboys hopped on the band wagon for imaginary social credit
>be Wizards
>systematically ruin every competitive format with moronic bullshit (I'd say Khan's is where it began but it really metastasized with Eldrazi Winter and the avalanche of Standard bans that came about a year later)
>disillusioned players take refuge in the popular fan-format meant for playing all your favorite pet cards and just hanging out with buddies - a perfect reprieve from all the BS happening in real formats at the time
>WotC notices the influx of EDHgays and ramps up """support""" for the format significantly
>WotC proceeds to take a big fat shit on EDH just like they do every format they focus on
Played as intended - as a casual beer and pretzels game for chilling with your bros and whipping out your favorite jank rares - the format can still be plenty of fun. Unfortunately, most players are autistic sperglords.
commander was only tolerable when literally nobody gave a frick about it and played it inbetween playing modern/standard matches. When it was truly a 100 card deck of random shit. The second it became anyone's main format it was absolutely fricking over. Even playing with friends while drunk and taking the game casually we fell out of it within a couple months and just went back to doing literally anything else or couch co-op Halo 2
Edhrec centralizing, categorizing and standardizing the optimal builds/interactions so it stopped being about experimental builds put together from the ugly ducklings in other formats. Toss in WotC capitalizing on this by making it an official product and the fundamental appeal was contradicted. Now it's just Standard- but a pretentious Standard.
>the worst mtg format
clearly op has never played tiny leaders or oathbreaker
What's wrong with tiny leaders?
>commander jr. and quirky commander
It is the only format in the middle of the Venn diagram of "affordable enough to actually play" and "popular enough to actually play", making it the best format by default due to being the only remotely playable one. Unfortunately it is still terrible, which goes to show how M:tG's doing these days.
It became popular enough for WotC to start designing cards specifically for it.
It's the D&D problem. Most MTG players were tired of the problems and mechanics the system had but were also too stubborn and stupid to move on or find something new so instead they warped the game into something it's not to try and get a new sense of fun out of it. Wizards saw what was happening and instead of asking themselves why their player base was sick of the 60 format (which mostly came down to price, power creep, netdeckshit), they decided to focus card design around Commander instead and brought all the problems of the regular formats to commander, so now you have a Frankenstein's monster of a format that has totally taken over the game which inherently doesn't work because the game was not designed for it so now you have a player base of stupid casuals that are being pushed out of the brand because commander is now just a more convoluted 60 format, and 60 format players are giving up on the game and either abandoning it or secluding themselves into soulless online play.
Commander should've been a spin off with its own cards, but trying to shove both it and 60 formats together is profoundly moronic and it's actually kind of amazing how many players don't recognize how stupid it is to try and play a TCG that has two distinct gameplay modes that share the same card pool and there's no way to really differentiate what card is good in what format meaning that only seasoned professionals that have been playing for years and have an instinctive eye for card value can actually build proper decks while everyone else has to flounder through it all on their own.
No
Yes
Youngsters want instant gratification and no "feels bad". Commander was made around that and that's why it's so shitty
>instant gratification and no "feels bad"
>games take hours
>zero competitive balance, potential for the most broken decks in any official format
>only format with potential for betrayal
It's the most feelsbad format there is, and the only format with less instant gratification is draft.
>competitive balance
Black person, the people playing edh are allergic to real competitive formats.
>potential for betrayal
Yes, just like their favorite boardgame! It adds narrative to the game.
The unwritten rules of commander are that everybody should get to do cool things, which is where the gratification comes from. The problem with commander is that players have vastly different ideas about what a fun game is, how important being competitive is, and will build decks with vastly different power levels, meaning you're going to get a much worse experience playing with a bunch of randos. Finally, there are all the issues that come with uncompetitive free-for-all games. Poor threat assessment, kingmaking, grudges from past plays, lies and betrayal. But compare to constructed: you don't need to be sweatlord with a meta deck to win or at least get something out of it (your deck did the thing) and you never really have to face the fact that you are losing because you just suck at the game.
Commander Black folk don't demand shit, they consume whatever slop comes their way. Maybe you should have bought more packs?
>But compare to constructed: you don't need to be sweatlord with a meta deck to win or at least get something out of it (your deck did the thing)
I mean, this was always the case. There's plenty of people playing pet decks or meme decks in Constructed.
>and you never really have to face the fact that you are losing because you just suck at the game.
I can't say I've heard too many Constructed players humbly accepting that their level of skill may not be up to scratch. I have heard a lot of b***hing about the stupid meta, the people throwing money at the game to get the latest netdeck, and in more modern times the nature of the Arena grind.
My real issue though is with the assumption that Commander is an "instant gratification" format with "no feels bad". You don't get to complain that it's about instant gratification and then write a long paragraph about all the issues that can only be addressed through assembling a solid playgroup of like-minded gentlemanly folk. If I want to play Modern, I can get my satisfaction in half an hour with a total stranger. If I want to play Commander, it's not going to be that easy to set up a good time at all.
What happens when your cool thing can't coexist with my cool thing?
I've played EDH since like 2006 and it's funny seeing people get mad at it being the preferred way to play, like what are people supposed to do pay inflated prices for rotating cards in gay formats like standard and modern?
Draft, Pauper and Commander are the only formats that exist aside from some sweaty fricking nerds sucking WotC wiener.
Its weird how so many people repeat this 'I don't want my cards to become obsolete' these days compared to in the old days when cards actually became obsolete faster. I think people are just poorer. Maybe another angle to it is that in the old days at least your cards would be made obsolete by truly new cards, these days after 20k+ cards it feels worse because everything is just a rehash of something else.
>Its weird how so many people repeat this 'I don't want my cards to become obsolete' these days compared to in the old days when cards actually became obsolete faster.
They absolutely didn't become obsolete faster in the old days.
Sure, there was Standard rotation, but then your cards would move into Eternal formats like Modern and Legacy where they genuinely wouldn't be shaken up so much. Occasionally bannings or power creep would render the classics obsolete, but it wasn't something that was happening often.
Now the pace of releases is up, and they're being targeted at a Commander audoence rather than Standard, meaning that stuff's powerful enough to shake up Modern and Legacy regularly. That's before you have shit like Modern Horizons that's intentionally designed to shake up the meta, ie make old cards obsolete.
In short; in the old days, cards becoming regularly obsolete was confined to one format. In the modern day, it's all of em.
On the one hand, I love a format where your deck building has interesting focuses and constraints. On the other hand, I really dislike how prevalent Commander has become as a format. Sure, it's fun, but a lot of cards are being printed as commander bait now, and the format itself doesn't get enough support to balance it out despite the fact that it's still basically casual.
I only really have fun playing Commander casually with other people who I enjoy playing games with. We get each others' dynamics and know how hard a deck will go compared to what the others build, so there's no bullshit where we argue about how strong each others' decks are.
>commanderBlack folk demand wotc to keep releasing commanderBlack person products twice or more yearly while also inserting blatant commanderBlack person cards in other non-commanderBlack person sets so commanderBlack folk can have their pick of their cards there as well without caring about adult things like balance or flavor
>"uuuuh what do you have against commander? we are the reason MtG still exists you know! we also are very prude regarding our spending compared to modernchuds and OH MY SCIENCE ANOTHER SECRET LAIR DROP THIS DOCTOR WHO SET WILL FIT NICELY INTO MY TRANSFORMERS THEME DECK I'LL HAVE 4 OF THEM PLEASE ANOTHER 200 EURODOLLARS WELL SPENT CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NEXT SECRET LAIR RELEASE NEXT MONTH SO I CAN SPEND 200 MORE"
transformers? this comment is so obsolete. the new meta will be taylor swift and hatsune miku commander decks. the rest of the comment is golden
this post isnt even parody anymore, everyone who gave a frick left and now even the edh general basedsquels any time a new crossover is announced and will go on and on about how epic and cool their 13th doctor simic commander deck will be when their 200$ premium preorder comes in
Commander players don't know you or care about you.
They're playing craw wurm tribal every week while looking forward to the next batch of decks made each month specifically for them to play with.
WotC are incompetent as frick, so its no surprise the format went to shit once they actually started designing cards for it.
>What went wrong.
It's a casual side format designed to play dumb cards and do stupid shit with your friends outside of a tourney setting that was forced to be the default mode of playing the game both in a casual and tourney format after wizards systematically destroyed every alternative with their greed, didn't learn their lesson, and is in the process of destroying the format with their greed.
Do thing draw card
Do thing, put card in hand (unless land, then put onto battlefield)
You can take this for a very wordy version of ward
If ward had upside for you casting your own spells. On all your creatures. In the best colors, let alone the best for targeted buff spells.
does this trigger twice per turn total or twice per turn per creature?
twice per turn per creature. So you can use a 0 cost equipment and trigger it as many times as you like because your deck is ultra cheap creatures and youre getting mana to cast them off his trigger putting lands into play
what the wienerering frick
FIRE it up
commander players love doing things, drawing cards, and ramping their mana so we combined all those things into an overstated low cmc legendary creature in a set meant for modern 🙂
>set meant for modern
>precons are all commander based and exclusive cards are not legal in modern
Lol
Lmao even
>Fricking
>Idiots
>Ruin
>Everything
I've been out of magic since I think right around khans.
Show me the worst. Show me where commander has shat in modern, show me where MH has fricked things up, show me the death of standard.
Make me glad I stayed out. Please, I want details. I want the gory horror. I want to see the FIRE on which they're roasting the game I used to like.
>hard mode: just game design, assume I hate the art direction/crossovers/planes of hats/etc.
>khans
Siege Rhino? Lmao
Why are there 14 different formats for this game!?
nta but this is the most egregious example. Broke every format's butthole open and was explicitly said to be made for commander
>was explicitly said to be made for commander
Did the dumbass designers actually think a 8/8 beater you can't even cast normally would be good for commander? The format with 40 starting life and three opponents?
I heard the legend of hogaak (hoe-gak, the noise it makes when it facefricks your wife?), this one escaped containment.
christ on a bike, so turn 3 you play it as functionally a sorcery that draws 1 and plays a second land, then I assume that UG has done enough bullshit that it escaping turn 4 is reasonable? at which point it again draws 1 and plays a land and is also a 6/6, and then it continues to draw 1 and play a land every turn after that?
yes I'm overlooking life gain, is life gain good now? or is that just the icing on the cake which distracts you while someone punches your format in the nuts?
I raise you
This was so moronic it was erratad then banned before it was even in circulation
Whoops
Pre-errata Lurrus is probably the strongest card ever printed since Unlimited. It turns out getting to recycle Black Lotus and Lion's Eye Diamond for better than free (you have to start the game with a 3/2 lifelinker in play) is really good. Like "better than Library of Alexandria" good.
>What if we made Quirion Druid (something that was previously a Legacy and Extended staple), but it draws you cards at instant speed? It won't even see play because the rest of the set is also value bullshit!
The only card ever banned in Vintage/Type 1 for power level reasons. Easily the strongest card ever printed.
EDH had several problems baked into it from the start. 40 life for 3 opponents is basically a single opponent with 120 life. You aren't going to race with combat damage. Your win condition has to either do something huge or lierally has "You win the game" written on it. The two archetypes best for this are combo and control. Since you have to 3-for-1 each threat or you fall behind, you play very specific value cards. This means the only viable decks are control decks with a combo finish. You can't play aggro because people's life is too high. You can't play midrange because there's no aggro to beat up or to keep control in check. You can't play pure combo because you're fighting against other control decks using free Ancestral Recalls and Time Walks.
The real problem lies with EDH's ban list, which is based on whatever Sheldon lost to this past week. Prismatic was a 250 card format and had tons of deck diversity. Highlander is similar (I think there was even a Pro Tour where Extended Highlander was the format). These other formats didn't have EDH's problems. For example: Demonic Tutor. Every black deck is going to play it because it's a singleton format and DT is just stronger than anything else. The card is banned in Legacy and Prismatic for a reason. In the other format where it's mainly played (Vintage), the card isn't an auto-include for every black deck. Dredge played lands to use for mana for years, but never played DT because it didn't fit into Dredge's strategy. But remember: every deck in EDH is control with a combo finish, so you HAVE to play it because it's best in slot. And this applies to every tutor, piece of fast artifact mana, and then obviously dumb cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Necropotence, Bazaar of Baghdad, etc.
What you're left with is decks made from the 80~90 best cards, depending on color. The rest of your deck building is the last 10 or so cards.
Turn 4 was usually a bit too soon because you could make other plays
>pic related
all control decks in edh eventually devolve into becoming combo decks anyways. After a while you realize you cant control 3 players with 1:1 interaction so you tune it to combo faster and protect that combo with your control elements. Meanwhile your removal just becomes wipes since those are the most efficient in a 4 player format.
>250 card format
holy mother of satan's cherry colored ballsack
Sheldon died anon. I haven't paid much attention lately but I imagine the rc is even worse off and more loathe to make the changes and bans the format desperately needs.
>Sheldon died
Of ligma?
the RC can not and never will ever make meaningful changes to the format. The banlist will never ever be improved because doing so would involve banning several cards over 40$ each that would lead to WotC hostile take over of the format because now they cant reprint those cards for infinite money
Muh value generator.
Is the concept of "goodstuff" in EDH still a thing i.e. take the top ~60 EDH cards in your deck's colors (probs BGx) and cram them into a deck of sheer value?
I remember that style of deck being pretty miserable to play against - you either crushed goodstuff with aggression/synergy that it was too greedy to withstand, or the goodstuff ran you over with value because you left it alone for two turns.
Goodstuff shitpile is the 2nd best deck archetype in EDH because it abuses opponent's good will and them wanting to not be kicked out of the table for being too mean. Naturally turbo combo is the #1 best deck type in the format because literally every rule makes combo insanely strong or invalidates other strategies
Take the 93/94 and premodern pills
Don't care, will be buying the Final Fantasy and Marvel precons
Same, I've given up on thinking magic as anything other than a disposable product.
If the price isn't too bad I'll pick up some cross-promotion slop to play with, the same way I'd buy a cheeseburger to eat.
>dont care, will still pay 200$ for cardboard with [BRAND] on them
mtg is the worst
FTFY
I started my TCG journey by playing Commander, so I am part of the problem, but this game is so pooched. I would rather play literally-who-anime TCGs than play Commander at this point. I am grateful to Commander for getting me into the TCG hobby, but I am out at this point. One thing I will point the finger at is rule-0, it is too ambiguous how sweaty you are supposed to take the game.
>One thing I will point the finger at is rule-0, it is too ambiguous how sweaty you are supposed to take the game.
> sit down
> I want to run power
> no
> i want to run power... proxies
> no
> I want Genju of the Realm as commander
> ok
so ambiguous, so difficult
>t. has never tried playing commander with randoms
Ive seen people literally get bullied out of tables by guys because they run X or Y combo or have Z card in their deck. If you ever try out spelltable this is even worse and people just straight up lie about their decks for easy wins
commander is best for casual play amongst the same four+ adults who hang out and play cards together, not the sweaty LGS buttcrack-monsters who mutter curses under their breath when you shuffle their doomsday pile or counter their treasure cruise or whatever
>rule 0 is a lame cop out and doesnt work
>uhhhh no its not
>yes it is it fricking sucks especially with randoms
>well it works with friends who agree on everything
no shit moron
>what went wrong?
Becoming an official format.
It never should have been made real.
Being made real is the source of every bad/broken designed card for EDH they've released.
what's wrong anon? Cant afford your 40$ FoW with 0 downside?
I think people have become terrified of losing. I don't think it's limited to MtG either. People play a 1v1 game and they just can't handle the very basic concept of losing now and when it's a 1v1 game and you lose, you have no one to blame but yourself. In a 4 way FFA though, anytime you lose you can come up with a reason why it wasn't your fault, like saying they all ganged up on you or were politicking against you. Heck, sometimes though excuses might even be true. It doesn't change the fact though that most people need these excuses to function now.
It's not just limited to MtG either. I'm convinced that this is a major reason why Fortnite has become such a huge success. It's a 100 person Battle-Royale. You go into it expecting to lose, so when you do lose, you don't feel bad about it. When you win though, wow, just imagine the rush you get from beating that many other people.
To summarize, people have become too fragile and weak. They want to be coddled and Commander format does just that.
Making precons every set was too great of an entry point.
Wizards is making bank but the only reasonable way to be introduced into magic anymore is commander. Buying a 40 dollar precon is cheaper and less hassle than netdecking or cracking packs blindly.
Edh was great when normies and wotc were busy sucking off each other in the 60 card formats until 2020. Edh became bad when normies ditched the 60 card formats and wotc started printing cards like Dockside Extortionist to "support" the format.
>dockside extortionist
that card made me finally drop commander
the guys I would play with at the lgc all bought a copy and refused to house ban it. So games kept coming down to who could abuse dockside the most to either combo win or just curve out and play their entire decks off the bazillion treasures
I played mtg comp from 8th up until MH was announced, then some edh until around 2022 when wotc made it abundantly clear they didnt want me playing.
I played my first game of EDH sometime in 2008, and up until about a year after the first edh precons (sometime during new phyrexia? idk been awhile) edh was literally just something you did to wind down. Decks were memes, random shit you brewed, maybe a few high powered cards but it was genuinely accepted to be a joke format you did for fun when you didnt want to think much or drink some beers.
Because of this, there were no real "staples" and even shit like sol ring wasnt something people went out of their way to get (until the precons). Winning wasnt what was important vs seeing what weird johnny timmy shit you could pull off. Even in groups with prime time and the flip blue b***h in a pod it wasnt super high powered or serious.
sometime after the precons, they started clearly designing cards made for commender that pissed off allot of comp players but at the same time it was fine at least bulk rares had a home. however this increased "power levels" over all, and this was also when the internet really started going more mainstream (idk like 2010 when morons realized they could use their phones to talk about card games).
prices started going up and edh pods and nights and muh power levels really started becoming annoying. It really took a nose dive after all the youtubers started making content for it uh 2016 or something and mtg stopped being a game you could criticize and started becoming some kind of cult where wotc was god.
edh was still fun with friends, but pretty horrible with randos. luckily modern and legacy were fun, until they started printing good legacy cards in edh precons that warped the format and then announced MH which I knew would ruin modern (it did in that it stopped being a format for older cards and just became standard 2.0).
>cont.
This with bad standard sets designed by actual morons + death of any real comp support meant the only real formats being played (ie making money) were edh and draft. You see this as they start making draft sets that are secretly just edh sets and vice-versa. Im sure some big wig at hasbro realized this as well which is why you got fifty different boosters at absurd price ranges because they knew "collectors" and "commander" players were the ones actually spending money. why design good gameplay formats when you can sell shiny garbage?
you see the epitome of this in the final straw for me, over priced "secret lair" nft drops. in the past these alt art would have just been in set, given away at fnm, reprinted in your yearly set, etc. But they realized quirk chungus would spend $50 on $5 worth of cards if you made jace a gay furry.
while I still enjoy edh with friends, we sold out along time ago and just MPC printed decks for cheap. playing with randoms at LGS is a toss up and its not really worth it, as 1 mouth breathing moron makes a hour feel like five and sours the entire night.
I only feel edh is popular because the highs are high and people ignore the lows. its also deceptively "cheap" as you can "just buy a commander precon" and introduce it to your victims as almost a board game to get them hooked before selling them your pickle-rick sol ring for $500.
looking at old lists, I had a skittles list that I paid maybe $50 in singles for that is now (same cards) over $3k. Thats stupid for any game much less one where its casual patchwork of rules meant for a 1-v-1 game.
That leads into another reason for its popularity- people can blame others for their loss. Im not bad! I was just targeted! its a scrubs paradise, as they never need to get better or think more they just need to consume the next stupid 1000 word wall of text made for commander card and blame their pod for targeting them.
This homie gets it, solid post anon
>edh was literally just something you did to wind down
It was like judge tower jr. It was a format you played because you'd already played a bunch of the main formats.
WotC deciding to make it into something they actively designed for seems to be one of the pillars holding up the death of magic as I liked it.
The problem with this format is that you need to know almost 30 years of esoteric card interactions to be able to play the game because otherwise you get instagibbed or placed in an unplayable position by turn 4 unless you have your own esoteric combos.
rule 0 only works with a specific culture that was gutted
Commander is fun.
They started making original cards for the format and the floodgates were opened and now every single set and product is filled with legendary creature slop
Commander (r.i.p. EDH we'll miss ye) is the goyslopiest format in the most soulless corpogoyslopncard game there is. I fricking hate what EDH and Magic as a whole has become and it sucks because I really did like it at a time.
There's needs to be a mass banning of cards. Yes, starting with Sol Ring as a model for what the format should be like. Pic slightly related
We havent gone as far as to ban it but my playgroup does have a gentlemans agreement not to play Sol Ring or most of giga fast mana rocks before turn 3
This. Soul ring and mana crypt are unironically better than most of the power 9, dockside is cancer and Thassa's and it's sidegrades just needs to die in a fire.
Just play conquest, it basically does what you guys purpose and more
commandergays crying about green is funny to me. The color gets overshadowed by every other color but because the format is designed to make it work they get all twisted trying to explain that ramp is OP when artifact mana is still better and faster
They should combine Pioneer and commander and make a bastard child. 30 life 77 card singleton format using only cards released after a certain cutoff point. Doesn't necessarily have to be 2012, just pick whichever year deals with the main bullshit cards.
This is how we got to the point where there are 14 official formats:
Instead of focusing on a few of them and make them good, they are just shotgunning and hoping something gets good by pure chance.
New formats are fine, especially if they refine and improve on an existing one, but they need to "rotate" out the older or unpopular formats to avoid the trap of heavily fracturing the playerbase.
You headline a few formats. Let's say standard, commander, pioneer, and this new theoretical one(let's call it Trailblazer). You stuff all the rest into a little retro formats tab on the website and pretend they don't exist. They can still do occasional tournaments, but the focus for marketing and playing should be directed towards the smaller group of highlighted formats. You funnel players together, and WoTC also gets a more narrow scope to work on banlists and stuff.
Then if this new format takes off, after a few years they can quietly push commander into the retro tab. Perhaps even repeat the process in a few years with an even more refined format. An evolving ruleset for an evolving cardpool.
>they need to rotate older or unpopular formats
They do. Do you think there was only ever 14 formats? Those are the supported ones.
What you are talking about is what they have been doing for the last decade and failing miserably because it's a bad idea.
They need to trim down way lower than 14. Something like 5 primary formats max.
>5 formats max
Legacy, Vintage, Modern and Standard is already 4.
And despite not being listed there, technically, draft is also a format that is sanctioned and official too. There isn't much space to grow with only 5 max formats.
Standard doesn't need to exist, nobody likes it, Vintage - modern - pauper is enough, after abolishing the reserved list and reprinting everything.
>Standard doesn't need to exist
That's moronic. Cards are allowed to be on the weaker side because they catered to Standard, and within a smaller pool of cards, they didn't need to be on par with some of the strongest ever printed.
The problem they are having right now with "FIRE" is that Standard is an after though after Commander, and the commander card pool is basically everything.
Also, having vintage over legacy is a mistake, since Legacy is the more popular format between the two.
Standard, modern, legacy and pauper is 4. There is literally only 1 space left for your "5 max".
People starting to optimize their decks for going fast and WotC printing shit specifically made for it. Basically the format died the moment it got rebranded as Commander and the first precons got printed.
I've never had a problem with the format, but I do have a problem with it becoming a 'play the best cards' format. Someone said up earlier in the thread that shit like edhrec is the real killer, because everyone ends up playing 'the best' cards for their decks.
The only way you're going to get anything out of it is by playomg with friends only, random pods at fnm are completely stupid because it always turns into a power race where everyone in the store starts forgoing their interesting or fun ideas to keep up with all the tables so they don't feel like they're doing nothing every game.
As a side fun thing to do with friends, even if they build strong decks and you stick hard with a theme that sucks, you can at least have a little fun harassing and haranguing them while you get your ass handed to you because you refuse to budge on your themeing. I've got 4 trash decks that are 100% on theme and refuse to even put in cards like sol ring because it kinda defeates the purpose of what EDH was meant to be to me.
EDH became garbage when people started netdecking it and ordering cards.
Which is how all of MTG failed.
Wotc designing cards for the format.
It was meant to be a format about playing with cards never intended to work together in that context. Look at how powerful the first commander decks were compared to all the available EDH generals at their release. Do you think Pheldagriff, Bassandra or Shirei could easily stand against Kaalia, Animar or Ghave back in 2011-12?
Its damage that can only be undone by playing something like PreDH in a throwback format.
>Do you think Pheldagriff, Bassandra or Shirei could easily stand against Kaalia, Animar or Ghave back in 2011-12?
>Bassandra
moron bro... she was released in the same commander deck as Kaalia
coukdve sworn she was from OG ravnica.
Pseudo rules. Can attack anyone you want but there is social/metagaming consequences for your action. You are 'bm' If you play too seriously but also bm if you don't play serious enough which leads to intentionally restraint of your game actions and deckbuilding to the point that you may as well not be playing a game with your 'friends' at that point you may as well just get drunk with them like a real human being, inb4 do both.
This gave me an neat idea. What if there was a 3v1 raid boss mode. You lose the gay politic stuff, the boss player can use a strong deck without any fuss, and the 3 players won't have an argument over powerlevel or targeting since they're working together.
I think they do have something like that, I think they also have a 2v2 mode which sounds like a huge improvement to me. No one really plays either because God only knows why.
edh
this is the reason why I stopped running less than 4 board wipes. a hand with 2 board wipes is a hand I keep.
I don't even know the appeal of commander besides the whole "it's with f-friends" argument. I've tried it before and I just find the game play to be boring as frick.
>select moronic commander that says "when you do X uh draw a card or make a token or something"
>add israelite-approved commander staples approved by the gay-king commander committee (from the current or last year)
>add lands
>add a few generic sleep inducing auto-win combos that everyone else is playing
>some cards that are doubling season
>fill every other slot with card that says "do X"
>sit at a table with 3 other people that went through the exact same deck building process
>proceed to have politics at the table until someone wins (who cares who)
I'd rather just play a board game, instead of watching 3 other homosexuals try to play with themselves.
When you have a playgroup where everyone is playing fun interesting decks, commander is literally the peak gameplay in MTG, its not even close.
The problem is that when decks are unbalanced, or your playing with bad players, its the absolute fricking worst.
So the format is players chasing the high of getting that good playgroup to have those really memorable games with friends.
EDH/Commander ruined MtG
Who even started it? I remember playing it back in 07/08 or so, a friend of mine told me about it. Never did figure out how it started. Used to be you had to use an actual elder dragon as your commander
Yes, the format is literally called Elder Dragon Highlander and was originally played with elder dragons as commanders
It started in the 90s as a fan thing with several variations. Like, you had your army leader, but also some creatures designated as "lieutenants" or something. There was an article about it in Duelist, maybe someone can provide screenshots.
I mean, two-headed giant was a fan thing too, named after a card from the very first set. People had fun with it, it showed up as a side feature during regular events, then got incorporated into some official stuff. But WOTC didn't print cards FOR 2hg, which is the major difference.
>Highlander was similar
Except they actually asked fans what to call it INSTEAD of Highlander, which was trademarked. That's how it became Commander in name.
>ante cards
There was a format with ante where the $ value of the card in the ante at game's end was what actually determined the winner. It might have been a side thing at a pro tour, but I remember watching it on ESPN2 (over 20 years ago) and seeing someone win with a israeliteeled Bird because it was less valuable than the card it knocked out of ante.
Don't know if it's true, but I heard it was judges at a pro tour or something similar that wanted to be able to play with their cool cards, but the problem was that they weren't viable in any existing format, and another problem was that they only had like 1 of them, since wotc doesn't hand out playsets of promos to judges.
>Anon EDH mana bases are more expensive than Legacy lmao...playing shitty, unoptimized decks isn't an excuse for accessibility.
Missing my point anon, I was replying about a post about getting beginners into the format. There's an on-boarding ramp to commander for players to get to the point where they have an optimized mana base that's more expensive than legacy. Modern/pioneer/legacy does not have that. MH3 should have had four modern precons that didn't have to be perfect, but serving as a starting point would go a long way to get new players into it. Instead it had four commander precons that didn't even have a single shock or fetch players could use if they did actually decided they wanted to check out modern.
>play with friends who like to see my goofy cards and jank combos
>play against strangers who get huffy when their $400 net deck drops one game but still wins against my goofy bullshit
ya, obvious choice really
If you want wild shit, you should start allowing conspiracies to take up sideboard slots. There's a conspericy card that lets you reduce your deck size by 5 so you play 4, one that lets you draw extra hands at the start of the game and pick the one you want so you play 4, one that makes cards cheaper, one that lets you draw a card when you cast a named card, and another that duplicates spells.
My local group tried it out and proxied up decks. The best deck we could make was 40 cards with tasha's hideous laughter for the wincon (or Thoracle), everyone played 4x leyline of anticipation to make sure you could play on upkeep turn 1 of whoever's turn, 4x mindbreak trap and pact of negation, 4x contract from below, 4x lotus, 4x mox sapphire and jet, some number of yawgs, git probes, and timetwisters to reoccure good spells, plus a few fun ofs that helped the gameplan.
It was kinda fun, because the games ended up playing more like a puzzle than a regular magic game, needing to fit the pieces together and a lot of the time we would just end up kind of working together to figure out how counter wars would go and where and when to play stuff like your free louts' and moxen in the stack to avoid getting blown out by the other player instant-speeding their own combo stuff. Not something that ends up being continuously repeatable, but it was fun for the month we tried it and people coming every week with some new tech (until I smashed with Tasha's).
its fun for a laugh but beyond its original purpose of a being casual game of chaotic magic the appeal is modest at best, i personally dislike the table politicking and would rather juat play DnD instead if we are going to do all this talking