It's high time we all collectively admit that the P/S split was a mistake that casualized the series beyond recovery. It's no coincidence that the last good generation was the one that didn't have it.
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>the last good generation was the one that didn't have it.
gen 4 had the split though
So did gen 5.
that's the first bad gen silly
Gen 3 didn't, notwithstanding
Nah it always sucked. Limits all mons of a certain type to either match their offensive stats or enjoy suboptimal damage despite the STAB.
Something that endlessly fascinates me is that people talk about the physical/special split, but never, EVER talk about special getting split into two stats. Why is that?
The little kek constantly crying about this shit was in nappies when that split happened. She was in short pants when the physical split happened and was too autistic to understand a punch shouldn't run off a Special Attack stat, hence the split fixing it finally.
Maybe the elemental punches should work like Psychock, running off of Special Attack but targeting Defense
Maybe there should be more moves that do that
Worthwhile concept.
Maybe you should learn what a punch is and handle reality better. Just an option like, you've been pissing your nappy for years over this shit and it ain't changing. If anything, the devs waited until they had hardware able to handle complex coding such as splitting the movelist into two camps as opposed to just splitting the types into two camps like they were forced to due to Nintendo wanting to sell a SNES in 2001.
nta but I doubt it was technically difficult to implement the split even as far back as gen 1. It's one additional bit per move
Given how fricking weirdly Gen 1 was programmed and how tight the data structure actually is, I don't think they could do it in the time frame. Years later with a good decomp and actually competent programmers sure, but Gen 1 Pokemon type is technically separate from species for some reason so they need entirely different bytes to keep track of that and there's all kinds of weirdness that could happen.
I mean, you are really only changing how the check works to use a bit from the move instead.
On the other hand, I think it would have been much more annoying to deal with when you can't read the move descriptions.
You are a moron. The physical special split objectively allows for more variety when designing new pokemon and/or moves. Restricting all STAB moves to a single attacking stat meant that [offensive] pokemon of a given type would almost always be viable only if their main attack stat matched their STAB. More viable possibility for design is ALWAYS better and less casualized than being pigeonholed into fewer options.
There are probably a few reasons for this but the most prevalent is that when it happened there were far fewer people invested in competitive mechanics. There was also no particularly strong precedent for keeping it since it only existed in one generation. The physical/special split had a much bigger impact on the previously established metagame because the metagame was actually established by this point. The proliferation of the internet by Gen IV also made it much easier to talk about changes as compared to 98.
> The physical special split objectively allows for more variety when designing new pokemon and/or moves
This isn’t a good thing
Your "objectivity" is just your subjective opinion, moronino.
OPINIONS CANNOT BE OBJECTIVE.
People only started b***hing about the phys/spec split when they realized it could be used as genwar fuel against the DS games since the DS games introduced it. The Discord and yawngay aren't interesting in pitting Gen 1 against Gen 2 so there's no point in pretending to care about the Special stat split.
Understand that there is hardly a genuine opinion on this board and it's all just genwarring camps at the end of the day.
You mean like how DS zoomers only started pretending HMs are good so they could have a reason to shit on the 3DS and Switch games?
>so they could have a reason to shit on the 3DS
HMs are in the Gen 6 games.
As a DSchad, I always hated HMs and I'm glad Gen 7 got rid of them. You either have to temporarily bench 1 or 2 of your Pokémon depending on the game you're playing, and most of the moves are worthless. Only ones I genuinely consider using on my team are Surf/Waterfall (depending on which attack stat is higher), Strength, Fly, and Rock Climb.
For what it's worth, in Gen 5, they were mainly used for finding extra items. You only need Cut in BW, and Surf & Strength in B2W2. But I know, that doesn't count because it just doesn't.
iirc BW had like exactly one instance of mandatory Cut at the very moment you acquire the HM. And BW2 didn't need anything at all aside from optional exploration so you can argue gen5 is where they culled the system.
Also yes, HMs were always a bad mechanic. Gen4 is super obnoxious about it, giving at least one significant advantage to the BDSP remakes.
chads don't call themselves chads
Gen 3's implementation of the modern EVs & IVs system was infinitely more impactful than either.
Not really.
It made things generally less bulky, but 127 points extra stat points with max of 63 in a single stat is not as impactful as seperating a whole stat and seperate categories for moves.
That changes how all Pokemon are structured as well as moves.
yes really.
IVs did not give you "extra stat points", they give you the exact same number of points as the system before it. if you can't visualize the formulas, play around in showdown's teambuilder to get an idea of how it works.
gen 2's special split had much less of an impact to pokemons' stats than gen 3's EV system revamp. gen 2's special split was basically just akin to the base stat nerfs/buffs we saw in gens 6-8. Stats in gens 1 and 2 look pretty similar for the most part. Some notable nerfs and buffs (snorlax buffed, chansey nerfed), but stats as a whole for most pokemon were not radically altered. Venusaur and many others remain identical stat-wise in gen 1 vs gen 2, whereas in gen 3 everything's stats look completely different.
510 EVs instead of 1530 EVs. Also natures. And it's a big deal. Everything is less bulky, but not only less bulky, mixed attacking sets become much less viable. There's a lot more opportunity cost to mixed attacking sets in a world with limited EVs and natures (3+) than without (1-2).
gen 4 and 5 would play 99% the same with or without the split. most of the best physical moves are still physical, most of the best special moves are still special. the split doesn't begin to become too relevant until gen 6+ imo, and even then, it's a minority of pokemon affected. whereas every single pokemon was radically affected by gen 3's stat system overhaul. every single pokemon's stat spreads look radically different thereafter.
Most of us were literally 10 years old or younger when we played these games and talked about them online.
The real cause for that wasn't having less special attack, it was losing speed modifying crit rate.
It was a cascade of nerfs. From most to least severe:
>Special split
>Hyper Beam no longer recharges on KO
>Speed doesn't effect crit rate
>Fighting and Rock types getting better
>Steel types getting added to the game
>Curse getting added making Snorlax basically invulnerable to Tauros instead of being Tauros fodder.
>Rock types getting better
You're joking because we all know that Shit Freak won't allow Rock to get better.
I think GameFreak bungled the movepool in transition, which made the physical/special split not so simple.
We went from only Focus Punch and Brick Break common to Close Combat.
I don't get this complaint, at all. I'm not going to pretend that some pokemon lost something from the change, but it was a net positive for the series and also made sense. A physical punch using a special attack stat is moronic, and so is a bite attack.
“Special” doesn’t mean “not physical”
That’s what contact and non-contact are for.
It's more like hitting things with a real object(including your body) or hitting things with magic. It makes sense that somebody with bigger muscles can punch harder even when their fists are on fire.
And on a similar note, it doesn't make much sense that shooting magical star-shaped bullets or literal magical beams accounts for your physical strength.
You are hitting things with magic when you use Fire Punch. The FIRE is magic.
moronic, the PUNCH is still what's hitting the target. Magically infused or not it will still hurt more coming from a Machamp compared to a Gengar.
>moronic, the PUNCH is still what's hitting the target
Hence why it’s a CONTACT move, but the FIRE is doing the damage. It only makes sense that the Pokemon with higher special stat does more damage with the FIRE based attack.
Would be more accurate to say it's both the fire and the fist, but it's not like the Machamp in question is going to somehow deal less damage than he would if he punched normally unless the attack is resisted.
The damage of the move is calculated using magic Fire, and not physical Fighting, so yes Machamp would deal less damage.
And it was a moronic calculation because something with massive arm strength is suddenly punching like a wet noodle.
To say nothing of the Dark moves lmao, how the hell do you even justify biting rolling off your magical prowess and not your goddamn mouth/teeth?
> And it was a moronic calculation because something with massive arm strength is suddenly punching like a wet noodle
Yes, because it’s using magic instead of physical strength.
Smashing someone with a steel pipe would be a steel, hence physical move. In that case the damage is coming from the blunt force of the pipe itself, not ice magic.
>because it’s using magic instead of physical strength.
He is literally walking in your face and punching it.
And where did the blunt force of the punch go, moron
> And where did the blunt force of the punch go,
It’s a fire based magic attack. Blunt force doesn’t factor in. If it did it would be a Fighting move, not a Fire one.
>Blunt force doesn’t factor in
How? Did our Machamp somehow turned his whole body into magic only to make his fists hotter?
>Smashing someone with a fist would be a fighting, hence physical move. In that case the damage is coming from the blunt force of the fist itself, not fire magic.
Exactly. That’s how Fighting moves work. Fire Punch isn’t a Fighting move, so it doesn’t work that way. Glad you’re learning anon.
Why is a frozen metal pipe not ice?
Ok, I’ll tap you with a flaming stick, then I’ll crack you upside the head with it and you tell me which hurts more.
>it’s the stick doing damage!
Yes, and Fire Punch is a punch doing damage, with the Fire magic giving it elemental power
Anime is not canon to the games. And the games eventually made Crunch a physical attack as it should be.
>Smashing a guy to death with a frozen metal pipe means he died of frostbite and nothing else
The damage calculation should use Attack/defense for contact moves and special for non contact. And also use the pre split types in the calc as well.
Fire punch would draw from both attack and special attack since its contact and fire. Brick break would just draw from attack since its contact and fighting.
There has never been a thread on the Physical/Special split that was made without the ill intent to start a flamewar.
Thank you, friend.
Stop pretending you care about preventing flamewars when you make pro-gen 4 and 5 genwar threads on a daily basis.
TRVTH NVKE
The DSzooms aren't gonna like this, though...
Point proven.
The meta peaked in Gen 3, everyone that was around back then agrees, ignore LARPing zoomies who will argue otherwise.
Hardly anyone played Gen III competitively even ten years ago let alone twenty.
It has *now* been confirmed to have been the best all-along---but almost nobody back then knew that. The common notion was that Gen IV was the peak of competitiveness, mistaken may that be.
comp has always been shit
>gen 3 ou and bl were made based on what people thought are good, everyone loves it
>Gen 4 OU and after are usage based, every single one has multiple complaints
Thinking splitgay might be right
People love Gen 3 OU, yes.
UU has a poot reputation precisely because UUBL exists which is so big that it is effectively the rule UU, and not only aren't gatekept from usage for no good reasons but also don't have gay rules like no Baton Pass nor NFE clause.
Nah.
i dont particularly like how post split most offensive pokemon run stab/stab/coverage/filler, gen4+ gengar is kind of a perfect exemple of that really. Why care about other moves when i can use shadow ball/focus blast?
Speaking of Dark being a special type, keep in mind the attacking moves prior to gen IV were:
>Bite
>Beat Up
>Crunch
>Feint Attack
>Pursuit
>Thief
>Knock Off
It's the most unintuitive shit ever to call these "special".
>Dark being special makes sense
Seriously now, couldn't be a more blatant bait if you tried
Check literally all of these moves would not intuitively be classified as special.
splitgays’ entire argument falls apart the second you check what move category Sacred Fire is
Weird exception but doesn't invalidate all the other examples.
It actually does.
Bait
>One bad move choice means they’re all bad!
Yes. Pre-split was more consistent, therefore more intuitive.
No, it wasn’t more consistent OR intuitive. How does Volt Tackle make sense as a special move? How does Swift make sense as a physical move? Sacred Fire is only 1 weird example, meanwhile I can list a dozen that make more sense post split off the top of my head
> How does Volt Tackle make sense as a special move?
Electric magic.
> How does Swift make sense as a physical move?
It uses physical force to generate the rays.
You realize your arguments work both ways, right? I can use them for razor Leaf and Water Shuriken to prove my point. Also, your Electric magic argument is bullshit. If I tap you with an electric baton, it’ll hurt from the electricity, but if I crack you upside the head with it, it’ll hurt a hell of a lot more. And if someone stronger than me hit you with it, it would hurt that much more. Like a punch. If I could light my fist on fire the fire would hurt you, but the punch would be the main thing hitting you, meaning the stronger I am, the more my Fire Punch will hurt
>It uses physical force to generate the rays.
my sides
Because of one unintuitive move? I can agree Sacred Fire is nonsensical as a physical attack but that's as good as pointing out that some mons use things like "dragon tail" without having a tail. There was no real logic behind it.
>one
Explain to me why Razor Leaf is physical but Water Shuriken is special.
Explain to me why Wring Out is a special move.
Basically any move that uses muscles for strength to increase attack potency is physical, meaning that Razor Leaf is leaves being shot at the opponent using the Pokémon’s physical strength.
Special is anything that uses their power or magical ability, meaning that Water Shuriken is Greninja using its ability to manipulate water to increase its strength.
Think about it like any rpg, as your stats increase you do more damage. The stronger the mage, the more damage they’ll do compared to one at a lower level.
>Basically any move that uses muscles for strength to increase attack potency is physical
Water Shuriken uses physical strength to throw the stars. So why it special?
>You realize your arguments work both ways, right?
No, because before the split it was completely consistent. Now it's just completely arbitrary. Why is Esper Wing special but Psyblade physical? Before I could just go "both are psychic attacks so it makes sense that they're both special." It's LESS intuitive than before.
Consistent to how typing worked mechanically maybe, but completely nonsensical with the description of most attacks.
Pointing out an exception or ambigous case doesn't help your argument when shit like an entire type didn't make sense, or anything that implies the user is resorting to physical aggression.
>but completely nonsensical with the description of most attacks
where
Was pointed out already. Closing your eyes doesn't count as an argument.
>Was pointed out already
where
>Closing your eyes doesn't count as an argument.
Concession accepted. Have fun sperging out for the whole thread now.
I'm asking you to point out where you pointed out the description not making sense with the attacks. Give examples.
>slashing with psychic wings vs slashing with psychic blade
What isn't the issue?
>Waaaaaaah a few moves don’t make immediate sense, so we should just blanket all types to either physical and special where at least half don’t make sense!
a few moves don’t make immediate sense, so we should just blanket all types to either physical and special where literally all of them make sense!
FTFY
The punch argument and everything that followed. Nobody is agreeing with your moronation.
being 100% physical is consistent
Shit anti-split gays type unironically. Physical ghosts amirite
That is how I know anti split gays are baiting. Pro split chads can admit Gf has odd choices that don’t make sense, but are overwhelmingly consistent, and these fools will argue Bite should be special because it’s dark, not physical because it’s based on bite strength. What I want to know is why Shadow Punch being physical makes sense to these tards, but fire punch doesn’t. Oh wait, they’re not using logic, just split bad, whatever cope we need we'll use
The issue is that's not what I wrote.
>firing feathers vs slashing with blades
What's the issue?
> So why it special?
Because Greninja uses its water magic to Project it? Yknow, basically your argument that Razor Leaf should be special
> No, because before the split it was completely consistent.
>Ghost being 100% physical is consistent
>How hard you can punch being based on anything other than physical stats is consistent
>All dark moves being special is consistent
It was never 100% intuitive for move classification, but it’s 10x more consistent now that moves that use physical strength are physical and magic moves are based on special. I have to assume this is bait, because you make no sense. A tackle or punch being based on anything other than physical strength is ridiculous and nonsensical, and your Magic argument is irrelevant, since the means of delivery dictate what stat the move is classified as
>Because Greninja uses its water magic to Project it?
So why isn't Razor Leaf using grass magic to project it? Why aren't they consistent? Doesn't seem very intuitive, anon.
>Ghost being 100% physical is consistent
Yes.
>How hard you can punch being based on anything other than physical stats is consistent
Yes, because some punching moves use blunt force and others use magic, which is why they're different types.
>All dark moves being special is consistent
Yes.
> Yes, because some punching moves use blunt force and others use magic, which is why they're different types
All punching moves, without exception, use blunt force. Just because your fist is imbued with an element, that will not ever change
>Why aren't they consistent? Doesn't seem very intuitive, anon.
Means of delivery. Plus, even if there are inconsistencies, it’s far more intuitive than all types being blanket physical or special.
>Yes
No. Because if all Ghost Moves were coded to be special, your argument would be that it makes 100% sense because you’re trying to argue that change bad and you have no other argument
>Yes
No
Because if all dark moves were physical you would argue that it is 100% consistent for no other reason than that’s what it was under pre split
Ghost being physical is silly, and dark being special is silly
Explain how Bite should calculate damage under any criteria other than how hard you can bite?
>Explain to me why Razor Leaf is physical but Water Shuriken is special.
Let's just say a very sharp leaf is more physically plausible than water being able to maintain the form of a shuriken without being made of literal magic.
>Explain to me why Wring Out is a special move.
Because the damage is entirely based on the opponent's current HP, not the attacker's own strength. It's a weird magic spell.
>inb4 counter
It's based on an actual martial art technique where you use the opponent's own strength against them.
>Get very good STAB in ghost back
>Still have plenty of coverage in T-bolt, Giga, Dazzling Gleam.
Idiotic image.
any argument about whether pre- or post-split is more intuitive is moronic, everyone thinks the system they grew up with is more intuitive because that’s what they’re used to
Counterpoint: I grew up with pre-split but I never felt like DPPt was counterintuitive.
The Special Stat split was worse. It made every single Pokemon except Mewtwo (the intended target of the split) worse for literally no reason.
True. Compressing offense and defense in one stat is a very dumb idea and I can only assume it was done to work around limitations.
??
It made some Pokemon worse and others significantly better.
plenty of Pokemon got SpD or SpA buff
Special attackers are still running Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Hydro Pump/Psychic and everything else as 20 years ago so the split didn't change a thing in that regard. The most interesting change was the rise of Mystical Fire in Gen 8 because it had a interesting distribution but Gen 9 backpadalled hard on that. The sad part of the physical attackers is the rise of the 120 BP moves that Gen 4 started. Earthquake was good as it gets for physical attackers and below that you had as bunch of 75 BP moves to make use of. Now you have Close Combat, Brave Bird, Gunk Shot, Wood Hammer, Flare Blitz and more recently Wave Crash creeping into every mon's movepool.
Meh, I think CC is very punishing for the user since you are now easier than ever to OHKO
Recoil also limits usefulness quite a bit, since you can have a nice day
>Meh, I think CC is very punishing for the user
Only in doubles.
Singles too. If somebody doesn't die to it you are either forced to switch or take serious damage back.
Solution: don't get hit
Easier said than done when you can get outsped or hit with priority. If you don't have a safe switch, the CC user died
I'd argue the problem was never the split, but more of the fact that Pokemon is iterative and has to constantly make new Pokemon, new abilities and moves to excite people, and that will almost always lead to some form of powercreep. Going back to pre-split mechanics in the current gen isn't suddenly going to make everything more balanced. But at the same time, you sort of wonder how to stop this inevitable feeling of type homogenization, where the type chart itself matters more than the moves distributed to the types.
>It's high time we all collectively admit that the P/S split was a mistake that casualized the series beyond recovery
Quit being so dramatic holy frick
Pre-split
>your mon either matches your type in attacking stat or you are turned into a defensive core and/or boltbeam user, maybe a gimmick if you have a good ability
>funky things like Hidden Power turning into physical or special at will, one of the most used moves ever due do this, even for STAB
>everything will just run Toxic, literally every mon that learns it probably used it
Post-split
>everyone has moves matching the attacking stat regardless of type, way more sets available
>Hidden Power is only for special attackers, and it's nobody's best STAB option, only an emergency coverage if you don't learn anything better
>Toxic becomes reserved for one mon, everyone else will find another reliable attacking move
Where's the Flareon STAB physical move in Gen 4?
We don't talk about Flareon. No seriously, he's a failure
The split is overrated. Most of the best physical moves are physical either way and most of the best special moves are special either way.
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They should just make it so any move that used to be the other kind, will use whichever stat is higher. If Machamp uses Fire Punch, it's physical. If Alakazam uses it, it's special. But moves that didn't get changed in the split like Flamethrower or moves that didn't exist before the split like Psycho Cut wouldn't be affected.
they've went pretty wild with the movepools in gen 9 so honestly that wouldn't feel out of place at this point.
but if people itt are really just arguing about the punches; then maybe the punches should have just remained special when the split happened in gen 4?
arguing that the punches should be special is not an argument for or against the split. it's an argument about the punches and only the punches.
people are arguing about the punches because the punches are the most obvious examples of moves in special types that should be physical. so if you can justify those being special, then you can justify anything and all arguments about what does and doesn't make sense can be thrown out.
it's not going to work though, everyone who isn't moronic can see why the punches should be physical. just look at how far the anti-split crowd has to reach to explain it being special.
Dark type too. Until Gen IV you don't even get a single attacking move that doesn't rely on pure physical strength.
>Crunch
>you literally bite someone
>somehow a special move
Anti-split tards defend this
Or, and hear me out, they add an item called "Rose Tinted Glasses" that make the wielder function like they did in their debut generation. For Gen 1 Pokemon, that means Speed = Crit Rate, Special is 1 stat again, no Phys/Spec split, Blizzard is 90% accurate, Freeze is an insta-kill on them as they cannot thaw like later gens, and Hyper Beam recharges on KO. Gen 1 and 2 Pokemon don't keep their abilities, but Gen 3 Pokemon do. Gen 1 and 2 Pokemon have all their stats maxed out because of the DV system, but Gen 3 Pokemon function as normal.
>pokemon can finally get STAB off of their good stats
>decades later and people still think mixed attacking is fine
morons who run flamethrower or fireblast on things like Salamence or Garchomp... Just use Iron Head.
It literally does more damage by virtue of being physical.
later and people still think mixed attacking is fine
I mean it's fine as a niche. I still run Infernape mixed so the opponent cannot reliably defend against one stat.
no its not you stupid gay c**t!
gemmy
nah your birth was a mistake homosexual
It’s high time we all admit that saying “P & S split” really fast out loud sounds like “Penis Split”. Yowch!! Who did that?
I think natures had a worse effect because it ruined mixed attackers and takes away the element of surprise.
*being able to minmax attack stats with no penalty
What?
Um the special split was not a good thing actually, look how it made goodmons like Tauros lose the ability to use their special coverage like Thunder and Blizzard chud
>I cant parse if a move will be physical or special
>only some types of pokemon should have a decent access to different type attacks
That sounds more casual than anything. Learn the game and the moves
moron
>it's bad because I have to think more now aaaaaaaaaiiieeeee
pre-split required more thought though
Elaborate
>then
hmmm is getting STAB worth the trade off for my less optimal stat? Is the boost enough to cover threats I want to check?
>now
hurrr lets just throw on my two most powerful STABs that match whatever stat is the highest and two coverage moves that match whatever stat is the highest
Special fighting and rock pokemon would like a word with you
Hell Flareon is on line 1.
And? What about them?
They don't have the luxury of free STAB moves that accomidate their offensive stat of choice. I don't remember if Flareon got Flare Blitz finally last gen or if that's still lacking, but either way bro is suffering.
If we go back to before the physical special split, Pokemon like Hitmonchan can't benifite from having the elemental punches, meanwhile Pokemon like Gengar will always lose to Alakazam just because Gengar's STABs are always physical pre split. They never had the same chance. It just wouldn't work, you're asking to completley neuter some Pokemon for others to be more balanced out.
> They don't have the luxury of free STAB moves that accomidate their offensive stat of choice
So? That’s exactly my point. You need to put THOUGHT into your moveset based on what you want to cover instead of mindlessly slapping on STABs like a moron. No one is forcing you to use STABs and no one is forcing you to use your highest offensive stat. Otherwise why the frick design the game to have two sets of attack stats to begin with?
>Otherwise why the frick design the game to have two sets of attack stats to begin with?
So that way you could be defensivley strong against one but not all type of attacks and need to doversify your defensive techniques and not just be able to outright wall things.
In gen 2 why would I ever choose a Pokemon with unusable STABs over one that fits it? Why would I ever use Gengar if I could use Dragapult?
Also keep in mind in gen 1 it also made sense because there was no capping on your EVs (or whatever gen 1's equivilant name is) so you had the luxury of maxing attack and special. You don't have that now, mixed attackeds can work but they're intentionally choosing spreads and natures that make them frailer, so they pay a cost to run mixed, but otherwise the resource allocation is too punishing to want to play mixed that often. So I don't see it as an unusable idea, but I prefer what we have now working with the modern game philosophy.
>play gen 4
>flareon and hitmonchan are still garbage
>play gen 3
>gengar is still one of the best pokemon in the game
wow it’s almost like the split has nothing to do with making shit pokemon good
Hm, are the reasonings the same or are they just both coinsidences that they worked with those systems? Dont act like Gengar being able to Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb isn't a big deal.
In reality the vast majority of pokemon in gen 3 use at least one stab and pokemon like Gengar are rare exceptions.
Why do pre-splitgays act like choosing between STAB or higher offense was at all common?
Pokemon like Gengar never used their STABs, and Pokemon like Tyranitar would go full in on being Mixed if they wanted to use their Dark STAB.
> Why do pre-splitgays act like choosing between STAB or higher offense was at all common?
Because it was. Tyranitar has sets that use both Rock and Dark STAB, only Rock STAB, or only Dark STAB, dumbass. That’s a choice you had to make. Now there’s virtually no reason to not just always have both because there’s zero downside.
>lose elemental punch coverage
>every other pokemon in the game now does more damage
It isn’t a big deal. I’d actually argue Gengar was BETTER in gen 3 than it was in 4 thanks to gen 4 adding a moronic amount of move power creep.
Largely factual post.
>Pokemon like Tyranitar would go full in on being Mixed if they wanted to use their Dark STAB.
they do
Yeah?
If they were running Dark STAB it’s either just Pursuit (a more utility attacking move) or add in moves like Fire Blast (which is non-STAB so they aren’t choosing mixed variants just for STAB)
>If they were running Dark STAB it’s either just Pursuit (a more utility attacking move) or add in moves like Fire Blast (which is non-STAB so they aren’t choosing mixed variants just for STAB)
you're thinking about Gen II
Gen III OU Tyranitar uses Crunch alongside Pursuit
Gen II OU is even harsher against your point by being mixed Rock Slide with Pursuit *without* Crunch.
>Why do pre-splitgays act like choosing between STAB or higher offense was at all common?
it's their only argument
I don't really care that much but I did think the idea of physical psychic attacks and special fighting attacks was kind of neat and weird.
pre-split made more sense in gen 1 where every type that wasn't normal had a single-digit number of moves
75 yourself
corvicuck lost
From this thread, I've learned that Yawngay is just someone who REALLY hates the DS games and Smogon since Smogonites prefer the DS games. His entire shitposting career is just 1 long genwar crusade.
>pre-split
>know what my pokemon's weaknesses are and prep for that defense stat every time
Unga bunga, me no need to think. My rock and ground types go special defense every time and my electrics go physical def.
>>pre-split
>my electrics go physical def.
play the game
When I play the game, I notice my electric Pokemon take lots of damage from ground. Makes sense to me!
>my electric Pokemon take lots of damage from ground
again, I suggest playing the game
We're just going to end the discussion there? You're not going to flex your huge knowledge well for a fat dunk against me? Cool.
if you were interested in learning about pre-Gen 4 competitive you'd have done so by now
I accept your concession then
>Palifin suffers
Its cool. Shitmons are pokemon culture!
Everyone in this thread is a moron, including me for replying to it
The only argument I've ever seen in favour of no Phys/Spec split is "my fave got nerfed by it" and their face is always something insanely fricking strong.
And the worst part is that they conveniently forget the pokemon that needed it the most when proposing to reverse the split. Hello, Sneasel and Absol called, they want their STABs back.
inb4 some shitposter strawmans Mightyena
Nahh bro thats too convinient, lmao. You're playing on easy mode if you expect a Pokemon's moves to just work well with the rest of their kit
>I NEEEEEED TO USE STABS!
Learn how the game works.
Show some VGC clips and lets see do they use stabs.
Amoonguss does not.
try again
Sorry man, gotta build my spreads wisely
The games flat out tell you pokemon using attacking moves that use the same type as them get a boost in power you moron. Some pokemon, mostly steel types, do tend to make the most out of their typings defensively rather than offensively, but Mono dark is fricking ass as a defensive type, Dark/Ice being even worse. The split works against more pokemon than it did for them.
>Mono dark is fricking ass as a defensive type
no it isn't
the mono-darks were mostly frail and when they weren't, like Umbreon, they were great walls
? Does your game crash if Absol uses a Dark move in gen 3 or something?
Yes.
>It's high time we all collectively *scratches unwashed crack* admit that [HEADCANON]
Pre-split meta is fun and all. There was an OM last month that removed the split and made Fairy a Special type, and it was fun for a while.
But thankfully it wasn’t like that always. A big problem with Pre-Split is that it doesn’t account for hundreds of Pokemon existing and thousands of moves to use in modern day.
Without the split now, tons of moves that are simply outclassed, like Crunch that has to compete with Dark Pulse or Fire Blast needing to compete with Flare Blitz. Additionally shit like Ice Shard, Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet being special is kind of bullshit and definitely should remain physical or rare like Thunderclap/Vacuum Wave
>A big problem with Pre-Split is that it doesn’t account for hundreds of Pokemon existing and thousands of moves to use in modern day.
Without the split now, tons of moves that are simply outclassed, like Crunch that has to compete with Dark Pulse or Fire Blast needing to compete with Flare Blitz. Additionally shit like Ice Shard, Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet being special is kind of bullshit and definitely should remain physical or rare like Thunderclap/Vacuum Wave
this makes no sense