I always thought it was stupid as frick, too. It's an excuse to avoid going through the work of actually balancing your game. It also makes absolutely no sense in the context of the game's world.
>make it so that players have to rely on their knowledge of the game instead of having to mindlessly grind enemies (if you're the kind of person who wants to unlock everything by the end of the first disc then that's on you being a weirdo) >lol it's just them being lazy
i can't believe it's true, FF8 really is simply too big-brained for your average gamer
Not him, but it's not so much that there's anything wrong with removing grinding as an option, the problem is that FF8 would have been much better doing this in literally any other way than what it did. The problem is that the way the game does stats, it becomes actively detrimental to actually play the game like an RPG (explore, fight battles, get stronger).
Since all stats hard cap at 255, and getting there in the ones that count tends to be quite easy through junctioning once you have a few levels on your characters, there ends up being a point at which, say, your main attacker has 255 strength, and every level you gain from that point forward is just giving every enemy higher stats in comparison to yours. This wouldn't even be a problem if the game didn't give you the option to completely bypass fighting as a means of character progression and just get all your spells from triple triad or carding monsters, but it does. The problem here is that these methods of character progression are completely detached from story progression. Basically, the way the game is designed, the player has to stop playing the story every once in a while and focus on JUST building their characters, only stopping when they get bored, arbitrarily decide that they're probably strong enough to keep going while maintaining a healthy challenge (complete guesswork unless they've already beaten the game or are following a guide), or end up with a perfect party.
ALL of this could have been avoided if the levelling system had just been removed entirely. Now just fighting random encounters during story progression rewards the player with the trash loot items the enemies already drop, all of which can be converted into different spells to be junctioned onto different stats, effectively giving the player choices after every single encounter on how to build their party, without the unintended side effect of every victory making every fight going forward harder.
Not everyone is some autistic LLGer or an asshat who grinds to lvl 99 in the first area of the game. Level scaling is an extremely lazy copout that is only done by developers who don't want to have to think about actual game design and the tools the player has access to. It's beyond moronic.
>It also makes absolutely no sense in the context of the game's world. >Only PCs can get stronger
By that moronic logic, Seifer's fight at the end of the third disc should have been against his level 4 self you get to see when he first joins in the first disc.
nah, in FFT they start throwing stronger enemies at you. Around lvl70 you will regularly be seeing behemoths and red chocobos and the skull mage fricks that cast the soul spells.
You sound like someone who just figured that out. Final Fantasy Tactics has it, yes. The difference here is only random encounters scale, and Tactics' skill systems don't completely suck ass.
I think level scaling would work best if its done with minimum and maximum levels in an area, so there's still some places that are really tough when you're just starting out but you still feel a sense of progression in your power as you pass the upper level thresholds. I think I've played at least one game that did that but I just can't remember what game it was.
I guess it depends on how it's handled. For example in WoW the enemies scale not only to your character level but to your equipment level. Which is lame. There is no sense of progression when the enemies are always meant to be of a similar level of challenge. Like what's the point of even having gear or levels at that point?
It is dumb as frick when it's one-to-one scaling. Shows devs either can't balance shit or else they're deathly afraid of someone grinding ahead to overcome difficulty. Some games are at least clever about the way they address the issue. Legend of Dragoon for example tries to solve it by making random battles drop pitiful amounts of experience and bosses drop tons of experience so it's difficult for players to be anything but the recommended level for a given point in the game.
Nah, I'm not autistic, so I just did a few battles to check out which monsters are around, grabbed a bunch of spells, mugged a bit and went on my merry way. Any issue you have with FF8's level scaling is entirely your own fault.
ALL of this could have been avoided if the levelling system had just been removed entirely. Now just fighting random encounters during story progression rewards the player with the trash loot items the enemies already drop, all of which can be converted into different spells to be junctioned onto different stats, effectively giving the player choices after every single encounter on how to build their party, without the unintended side effect of every victory making every fight going forward harder.
this is the only good post ITT. unironically agree with everything said here
because generally japanese devs put more effort into their shit, with exceptions
for all of FF8's flaws, scaling being one of it, monster diversity is not one of them
>it forced you to play
you can get OP without ever playing the card game. there are plenty of other ways to get high tier magic early and easily like from item refining
Never found a problem with level scaling. It always makes encounters difficult and de-incentivizes grinding. Fire Emblem Fates is a good example, paralogues increase in difficulty the more chapters you complete (because they are non-linear), so the player is always up for a challenge..
level scaling allows devs to be smart about how to make encounters challenging because players can't just grind to where they're all easy
>allows devs to be smart
Devs have never been held back by anything other than their own incompetence
I always thought it was stupid as frick, too. It's an excuse to avoid going through the work of actually balancing your game. It also makes absolutely no sense in the context of the game's world.
>make it so that players have to rely on their knowledge of the game instead of having to mindlessly grind enemies (if you're the kind of person who wants to unlock everything by the end of the first disc then that's on you being a weirdo)
>lol it's just them being lazy
i can't believe it's true, FF8 really is simply too big-brained for your average gamer
Not him, but it's not so much that there's anything wrong with removing grinding as an option, the problem is that FF8 would have been much better doing this in literally any other way than what it did. The problem is that the way the game does stats, it becomes actively detrimental to actually play the game like an RPG (explore, fight battles, get stronger).
Since all stats hard cap at 255, and getting there in the ones that count tends to be quite easy through junctioning once you have a few levels on your characters, there ends up being a point at which, say, your main attacker has 255 strength, and every level you gain from that point forward is just giving every enemy higher stats in comparison to yours. This wouldn't even be a problem if the game didn't give you the option to completely bypass fighting as a means of character progression and just get all your spells from triple triad or carding monsters, but it does. The problem here is that these methods of character progression are completely detached from story progression. Basically, the way the game is designed, the player has to stop playing the story every once in a while and focus on JUST building their characters, only stopping when they get bored, arbitrarily decide that they're probably strong enough to keep going while maintaining a healthy challenge (complete guesswork unless they've already beaten the game or are following a guide), or end up with a perfect party.
ALL of this could have been avoided if the levelling system had just been removed entirely. Now just fighting random encounters during story progression rewards the player with the trash loot items the enemies already drop, all of which can be converted into different spells to be junctioned onto different stats, effectively giving the player choices after every single encounter on how to build their party, without the unintended side effect of every victory making every fight going forward harder.
Not everyone is some autistic LLGer or an asshat who grinds to lvl 99 in the first area of the game. Level scaling is an extremely lazy copout that is only done by developers who don't want to have to think about actual game design and the tools the player has access to. It's beyond moronic.
>It also makes absolutely no sense in the context of the game's world.
>Only PCs can get stronger
By that moronic logic, Seifer's fight at the end of the third disc should have been against his level 4 self you get to see when he first joins in the first disc.
>FF fans have double standards
No way, who could have seen this coming
guess all those random dogs and rats in the overworld are just working out off-screen then
nah, in FFT they start throwing stronger enemies at you. Around lvl70 you will regularly be seeing behemoths and red chocobos and the skull mage fricks that cast the soul spells.
Funny thing: FFT has level scaling and gets zero flack for it.
You sound like someone who just figured that out. Final Fantasy Tactics has it, yes. The difference here is only random encounters scale, and Tactics' skill systems don't completely suck ass.
>FF8 fans are moronic
I saw *that* coming, at least.
>*FF fans are moronic
There
I think level scaling would work best if its done with minimum and maximum levels in an area, so there's still some places that are really tough when you're just starting out but you still feel a sense of progression in your power as you pass the upper level thresholds. I think I've played at least one game that did that but I just can't remember what game it was.
I guess it depends on how it's handled. For example in WoW the enemies scale not only to your character level but to your equipment level. Which is lame. There is no sense of progression when the enemies are always meant to be of a similar level of challenge. Like what's the point of even having gear or levels at that point?
It is dumb as frick when it's one-to-one scaling. Shows devs either can't balance shit or else they're deathly afraid of someone grinding ahead to overcome difficulty. Some games are at least clever about the way they address the issue. Legend of Dragoon for example tries to solve it by making random battles drop pitiful amounts of experience and bosses drop tons of experience so it's difficult for players to be anything but the recommended level for a given point in the game.
Do you enjoy random encounters with low level mobs that offer no exp or worth while rewards?
If not, this is what level scaling solves.
The better solution, if your game's battles are that exhausting, is an item or skill that banishes low-level encounters.
how about if you don't want to play, you just don't.
can't they just make random encounters level relevant?
>Do you enjoy random encounters with low level mobs that offer no exp or worth while rewards?
>If not, this is what level scaling solves.
>can't they just make random encounters level relevant?
sup?
I never had any problems with it 8n Final Fantasy 8.
I didn't know 8 had a level scaling system but in Skyrim level scaling bothers me so much I cant even play it.
Level scaling in FF8 is orders of magnitude worse than in Skyrim. In FF8 the game simply doesn't want you to do combat.
Nah, I'm not autistic, so I just did a few battles to check out which monsters are around, grabbed a bunch of spells, mugged a bit and went on my merry way. Any issue you have with FF8's level scaling is entirely your own fault.
level scaling is just an excuse for most devs to not design and model a larger amount of enemies.
Just make a handful, have them scale and boom set for the entire game.
literally doesn't even apply to FF8
bad bait
this is the only good post ITT. unironically agree with everything said here
>systems with leveling are the default so they must be better than ones with scaling
brainlet lol
>literally doesn't even apply to FF8
>bad bait
because generally japanese devs put more effort into their shit, with exceptions
for all of FF8's flaws, scaling being one of it, monster diversity is not one of them
yeah frick this game and the stupid triple triad card game it forced you to play
>it forced you to play
you can get OP without ever playing the card game. there are plenty of other ways to get high tier magic early and easily like from item refining
>Anyone else hate level scaling?
No. Level scaling was one of the few things FF8 did right and should have been the norm for EVERY jrpg.
Never found a problem with level scaling. It always makes encounters difficult and de-incentivizes grinding. Fire Emblem Fates is a good example, paralogues increase in difficulty the more chapters you complete (because they are non-linear), so the player is always up for a challenge..
Level scaling done badly:
>Bandit
>Bandit Overlord
>Bandit Deathknight
Level scaling done properly:
>1 bandit
>2 bandits
>3 bandits
>dumb bandit
>smart bandit
>genius bandit
>level 1 enemy
>because I'm in low HP I can spam limit
>enemy dead
>level 99 enemy
>because I'm in low HP I can spam limit
>enemy dead
There's like one instance in the whole game where the level is a minor annoyance, and that's getting steel pipes.