No, you can't move diagonally in JH.
You can attack diagonally, though (and attack-move diagonally on a melee kill)
It's a big departure from DoomRL and its outstanding dodge system but JH is very well balanced around its movement, so after you play it a bit you won't feel like it's missing something.
JH is a great game, can't recommend it enough.
I played it ~two years ago, and it was great and pretty much finished.
I decide to give it another spin last patch and realize all branches now have unique gimmicks, there's a boss on every planet, and overall a bunch of new shit was added.
It's amazing.
did it ever get diagonals? i remember that being a weird step back from doomrl when i last saw it but that was several years ago
>a weird step back from doomrl
How I feel about JH in general.
Worse movement, can't destroy most of the map, less weapon variety, soulless upgrade system, less interesting areas, etc etc
Everything is either more or less the same as Doom RL (the skill trees), worse than Doom RL (all the above) or technically different but still aping Doom RL so much I'd rather just go play it (the demons + zombie human enemies)
All it has going over it is shotguns not being moronicly broken and spamming blind-fire into darkness after dropping a medpack not dumpstering everything
>less weapon variety
JH has more basic weapon types than DoomRL >soulless upgrade system
JH doesn't have assemblies but the mod pack upgrades are much more interesting than in DoomRL >less interesting areas
Not anymore
JH has planet themes, plenty of themed branches with unique quirks, better enemy variety, level events, stations, etc.
It's a very cool game and offers plenty of stuff DoomRL does not, without replacing it as a game.
If you only played it during it's initial EA release, you should try it out again. The game has changed massively and is in a great shape right now.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>basic weapon types
Who
Cares
I said less weapon variety, I did not 'less weapon variety IF you arbitarily limit that variety to basic weapons!'. DoomRL had a lot more fun, unique upgrades. WHich were completely different weapons. >Mod pack good
Wrong lol
>DCSS. 0.15
Not the worst choice but it removed most of the fun from Nemelex. I'd pick 0.14 over it.
Kimchicrawl has old nemelex, Deathknight as a class, removed spells, etc etc. Shame that fork was abandoned.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Who >Cares
Everyone? >I did not 'less weapon variety IF you arbitarily limit that variety to basic weapons!'
And that's not what I said.
DoomRL has literally less weapon variety.
Base weapon TYPES are the thing that makes weapons fundamentally different. >DoomRL had a lot more fun, unique upgrades. WHich were completely different weapons.
No, not really, you don't know what you are talking about. >Wrong lol
Again, you don't know what you are talking about.
Simply pumping stats is not as interesting as providing dynamic effects.
What DoomRL did with its assemblies JH does with its regular mods and AV gear. It's not one-to-one, of course, but for the most part it's there.
When did you last play JH? You are saying a lot of crap that is objectively false.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Okay bro calm down bro
Its okay that Jupiter Hell's upgrade system fricking sucks bro holy shit
No, you can't move diagonally in JH.
You can attack diagonally, though (and attack-move diagonally on a melee kill)
It's a big departure from DoomRL and its outstanding dodge system but JH is very well balanced around its movement, so after you play it a bit you won't feel like it's missing something.
JH is a great game, can't recommend it enough.
You can call it autism but it's a matter of clarity. I can't recommend Tales of Maj'eyal to someone who likes Risk of Rain because they're two totally different kinds of games despite being labeled as the same genre
You can call it autism but it's a matter of clarity. I can't recommend Tales of Maj'eyal to someone who likes Risk of Rain because they're two totally different kinds of games despite being labeled as the same genre
Except it isn't. It is only hardcore devs who have moms that won't let them that started abusing the berlin interpretation so they could call their twinstick shooters and platformers roguelikes that got normalgays using it for anything that has some random anything somewhere, maybe.
Like, but not necessarily Berlin interpretation. The biggest issue with many lites to me. Is the locking of content. What was so refreshing about roguelikes even 15 or so years ago was the no bullshit gaming. They're happy to slap you in the face with 30 races 20 classes and a dozen schools of magic. They're purely about the game from the start. No dangling carrots or meta progression.
Does Balatro really count as rogue anything? But yes. I do love that it's an option to just play the game.
Slice and Dice also let's you just get on with it. You can revert with the normal unlocks from it though. Just a warning "this is more complicated, not harder." All it has to be
It's simple anon, roguelikes whole purpose is to die repeated until you manage to complete the game often not through skill but luck with RNG
Roguelites however can usually be won on the first playthrough, they're challenging but fair. You don't have to start completely over each time. Hence they're a refinement on the shitty roguelike genre.
Kek, read your post thinking it made more sense in reverse only to then notice what you were responding to.
Not liking traditional roguelikes makes sense because there is something about turn-based tilesets that can seem a bit dull and not for everyone. Not liking roguelites means not liking literally every other genre of game. Saying "if the gameplay is enjoyable" also seems daft when roguelikes vary in gameplay far less.
Meanwhile the other side thinks playing the game without a consolation prize is a deal breaker. Which must mean they don't actually play games for the joy of gaming. They play to unlock shit and there just happens to be a game in the way
I like metaprogression that you have to actually earn. You get the best of both worlds - variety and replayability and you also have an obstacle to overcome so all that variety feels like you deserved it.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Variety and replayability in roguelikes just comes from your willingness to use it. Want to start simple? Be an orc warrior. Want to spice it up? Be something like a doppelganger trickster and copy other monsters or whatever the frick weird classes they put in.
I do understand that there's a degree of paralysis of choice to this. The games to some degree trust their players to find their own fun. Unlocks make it easy to go "oh dang, a new class? Got to try that now." They drive to to try more by trickling it in. At the cost if not letting you jump into the deep end at all.
I love looking at the hundreds of options from second one. But I do get why that's hard for some.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I'm not talking about choice paralysis. I'm talking about overcoming obstacles to earn a reward, which is the cornerstone of practically all fictional entertainment in existence.
I personally like metaprogression that actually requires you to achieve things for rewards. FTL needs you to actually win or succeed at quests or complete achievements to unlock new ships and layout. My favorite classical roguelike also has metaprogression but it as well requires you to actually do ahievements and be successful in order to climb through the metaprogression. No amount of suiciding against a wall for dozens of hours will help you actually become powerful, you need to know your shit to make it.
FTL doesn't even really have metaprogression, the unlocks aren't stronger or better, you don't suddenly just hit harder, the enemies and encounters aren't built around you just having higher stats unlocked from the metaprogression.
Yeah, you can build stronger synergies and combos with more unlocks (and its very easy to take advantage of choosing race/ship for a playstyle you like), I don't deny that, but its very different from games where u just get +damage +hp +resistance etc.
ftl feels like tutorialized metaprogression, doesn't want to overwhelm you with too many options and complicated ones so you need to play a little bit to unlock it all and it adds some fresh ways to play even after u have played for a little bit more than that, rather than actually expecting you to get stronger for having these unlocks.
3 months ago
Anonymous
My other game gives you tangible power in metaprogression but it's still good because you need to be actually competent to unlock all the meta powers because most of them are locked behind achievements, and many of thise achievements aren't exactly trivial, so I still consider it good. The cornerstone of what appeals to me is that you have to earn it rather than grind it.
Highly recommend Rift Wizard. Which plays more like a traditional roguelike. Ie turn based, grid mostly tactical. With a few tweaks which go towards the normal lite gameplay. Set arenas you must beat. Peeking into the next room to pick. No fog, full information at all times. Very much about making a broken build
On a pure gameplay basis it basically is the same game, so if you liked 1 and just want more than go for it. If that doesnt appeal to you than avoid it.
That being said a lot of the games systems and mechanics have been changed up. New spells and a new magic type to play with. Spells also only get one upgrade now, with the upgrades being much more meaningfull and the generic "spells get more range/dmg/casts" has been moved to skills. That being said the dev hasnt gotten around to updating every spell yet so you still have spells ugrades like dominate that are unchanged and nowhere near as good. Level rewards are different. Instead of circles and shrines you get chests with equipment to choose from, with the equipment giving buffs to all your spells instead of just one. You can also get funny pets to help you.
Level genrationg logic is pretty different, although you probably wont notice this unless you played a frick ton of 1. Enemies can now spawn with modifiers too them that give different resistances and buffs.
Im sure theres a bunch of other stuff im forgetting
Is ~300 hours enough playtime? I even beat the game with only Magic Missile. Single spell challenge runs seem impossible in the new one though. Precisely because you can't turbo upgrade them and get basically no mana.
I have a feeling wolfer is still possible. There are so many skills that support and supplement it, and the items might make it even stronger than before. My very first run of 2 ended in a victory that abused the new toadblooded skill.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I have found a lot of "+1 summons" letting you get a ton of clay hounds. But in the late game they do tend to drop off imo.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Venom split, megavenom, collected agony and spider spawning go a long way towards keeping them strong. It just floods the entire map with spiderlings in no time at all. Wolfer in 1 was an absolute breeze with that skill setup, and with new skills like toadblood and scent of blood I imagine it's even easier. The biggest hurdle is probably going to be the boss right before Mordred, I think I almost died and had to use a stopwatch in the run I posted. The late game is definitely harder than it was in 1, but Mordred is still a pushover.
These specifically involve actual dice as a mechanic. Changing faces, multipliers, rerolling and possibly synergies between dice. Of course RNG is "rolling dice" in some way. This just goes harder towards using dice as the game.
>If you're really gonna make a good game >You'd better make one that you'd wanna play
Ironic. Because from the perspective of a game dev. Roguelikes and roguelites are for better or a somewhat egotistic genre.
Like. I like making roguelikes, because I as the dev, can actually enjoy them.
Making adventure games or whatever else is really unsatisfying as a game dev. As far as your own enjoyment of the game is concerned at least.
Making an adventure game or whatever, then I already know the entire game world. I know of all the secrets. I know of the locations of everything. There is nothing to discover. There is no surprise. There is nothing.
But when you make roguelikes and roguelites. Even if you might know of whatever secrets the game might have. And all the unlockables or whatever. Everything else is random and you can still get the genuine experience even as a developer with all the knowledge.
nothing, it's a moronic list made by a terminally online contrarian
just play the games and stop listening to fricking game essays, e-celebs and literal whos
I think they're kinda lazy. You give the player minimax homework, essentially. The AI is going to play optimally and will win most of the time unless you TOO optimize your own gameplay. Assuming you play from the same deck, otherwise is ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY.
No because in the real world, when players are minimaxing and gambling, people don't naturally see that many 'moves' ahead. Especially with a traditional set of cards, there are just too many variables. Take Texas Hold Em between 3 players. We know 2 cards, we don't know 4, we bet on not knowing 46 cards. Then we learn 3 more cards, we bet with 43 other cards unknown to us. Then we learn 1 more card , bet not knowing 42 cards. Then we learn 1 more card, final round of betting on 41 unknown cards. Now we have to play. How many turns do you have to anticipate to play optimally?
Sorry muh math is off.
We know 2, don't know 50
Then we know 5, don't know 47
Then we know 6, dont' know 46
Then we know 7, (2 in your hand, 5 on the table) and don't know 45 cards.
So we are betting on a lot of unknown variables unless we hash the unknown values and create a minimax strategy off of that. That strategy is counting cards.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>That strategy is counting cards.
This is illegal btw.
3 months ago
Anonymous
No it's not. Don't believe casino propaganda.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I'll always not laugh at the fact that Crypt of the Necrodancer literally fulfills all requirements
yet it's a hack n' slash just because
3 months ago
Anonymous
explicitly adds an extra system to the game entirely based on rhythm that on some "classes" is absolutely necessary to use appropriately and move in time with the music or else incur fat penalties/die - it's too integral to the full experience of Necrodancer to just say "but everything else fits"
you can always take your time in Roguelites without being punished until you make your move
Necrodancer incentivizes keeping your beat going, meaning you have to butthump a wall/circle tiles/have drums/use a certain character
it's one of a kind though, there's no doubting that
It's just the term Roguelike
Rogulite isn't a term, it's a buzzword made up by scammers who poor together piss-poor RNG Progression games/gambling sims and want to convince morons they're actual games
That said, I 100% fully support these scammers. Why? Because if morons are stupid enouguh to get scammed, they deserve it
Fun fact, the top left is considered 'roguelites' and one of them, slay the spire, is considered one of the originators of the scam
>Rogulite isn't a term, it's a buzzword made up by scammers who poor together piss-poor RNG Progression games/gambling sims and want to convince morons they're actual games
No. Roguelite was a term that was coined to describe games that were inspired by roguelikes, but weren't.
Calling your non-roguelike, a roguelike, would be the scummy scam thing to do. Calling it a roguelite is being honest.
I like roguelikes and metroidvanias and souls games, but I agree with this. Nothing makes me lose interest in a promising game faster than discovering it's an isometric soulslike with roguelite progression and deck building.
I honestly thought dicey dungeons was ok. Loop hero can eat a massive wiener though. The trend of idle games that require too much focus to actually idle in needs to die
Its why Grandma clicker will never be dethroned. Same with V Sav clones v V Sav (i know v sav itself is a ripoff). They just don't 'get' it.
If I need to constantly micromanage and idle game, its not about being idle
If I can dodge attacks in a v sav clone, its not about managing knockback/damage v incoming waves
They're fundamentally not what they're trying to ape and therefore trash
Song is stupid and contradicts itsellf >if you really want to make a good game >you'd better make one that you'd want to play
I guarantee you 95% of roguelikes/lites are made because the dev wants to be able to play and enjoy their own game.
No one wants to solodev and get burn out on their own game because it's static content and they've spend triple digit hours debugging it all.
>I guarantee you 95% of roguelikes/lites are made because the dev wants to be able to play and enjoy their own game.
I call bullshit
95% of rogueshitters are made because the developer wants to waste as much of the player's time while creating as little actual content as possible (putting in as little effort as possible).
The only things they care about are >padding engagement statistics >getting players addicted to a predatory loop
If you're creating a game like this, you probably know better than to partake of similar poison yourself.
Song is stupid and contradicts itsellf >if you really want to make a good game >you'd better make one that you'd want to play
I guarantee you 95% of roguelikes/lites are made because the dev wants to be able to play and enjoy their own game.
No one wants to solodev and get burn out on their own game because it's static content and they've spend triple digit hours debugging it all.
Roguelike/lites are popular among indies because they are a kind of game you can self-playtest. Don't need to get a hold of other people for a perspective on what the game is like for people who haven't made it (running the risk of getting bad input if their tastes happen to be shit) when you yourself are also in the dark about what the game is about to throw at you.
Also yes. They also get made because the people who make them also enjoy those kind of games. That's fricking obvious. That really was the songwriter's bias coming in there. homosexual doesn't enjoy roguelites himself so he's deluded himself into thinking no one else does.
i like playing esper, you have a shitton of powers which include clones of yourself with the same powers, mind swapping, brainwashing anyone into an ally and an ability to refresh your powers
you can pick a trait that spawns an evil twin of you, with the exact same powers and inventory
and theres a billion ways to exploit all of the things above
>Like
Procedurally Generated Rooms
Permadeath
Turn Based
>Lite
Procedurally Generated Rooms
Meta Progression
Real Time
That's it. The biggest difference is Meta Progression or Permadeath, and Real Time or Turn Based.
If your Rogue-ish game has Meta Progression or is in Real Time it is Rouge-lite.
If it has Permadeath and is in Real Time it's still a Rogue-lite.
If it has Permadeath (YOU START AGAIN FROM NOTHING, 0, A NEW 'FILE') AND is Turn Based you have a Roguelike.
If you are asking preference? Personally I like Roguelites. Meta progression make monkey brain happy. Permadeath makes monkey brain mad and sad. Le time sunk because the meta progression is your knowledge of the game which is less visible than number go up.
Roguelite just means genre hybrid. You could refer to Deus Ex as a rpg on the understanding its an rpg/shooter hybrid and no one would give a damn. Problem is roguelike fans are way more anal about this shit so taking a traditionally turn-based genre and making hybrids with real time ones managed to cause this big debate.
Meta progression is honestly a trivial thing to make a distinction over since you can just download a 100% save and it gets removed as a factor entirely.
>the two points made to distinct them are what you are trying to obfuscate by saying "it doesn't matter" (I accept your concession) or "just cheat, it's a singleplayer game anyway" (I accept your concession)
Zoomer, if you want to try and deconstruct something while being a fence sitter at least know what the arguments are and have points instead of just "I don't care, just cheat" as those are not points but drivel.
>Deus Ex is a tactics RPG because you can be tactical and it has RPG elements >Deus Ex is a puzzle game because it has puzzles
It all depends on how far you stretch it. And most lites are far enough removed from the likes that they basically should not be allowed to count.
t. like enjoyer
It's not a question of how you stretch it. Deus Ex is considered an rpg/shooter hybrid by most people, no stretching required.
>so taking a traditionally turn-based genre and making hybrids with real time ones managed to cause this big debate
Isn't that kind of understandable though? It does make for a foundational difference. Not all differences are equal.
But I mean. Take Fire Emblem for instance. Very typical, turnbased, gridbased Strategy RPG.
Now could you say that something like Unicorn Overlord is the same genre as Fire Emblem? Some might take issue at that. Univorn Overlord's map movement is after all, RTwP instead of being turnbased across a grid. But other than that it meets all the genre conventions. So even if it might spark some debate, but a lot of the time people just let such a claim fly.
But let's deviate further. Is DotA and Fire Emblem the same genre?
And I and most others would argue absolutely not. But why?
Genuinely. I'd argue that most roguelites versus actual roguelikes, would be like this DotA versus Fire Emblem example. And arguing that they are actually the same in spite of their many fundamental differences. Is frankly, ridiculous.
With all due respect.
>I'd argue that most roguelites versus actual roguelikes, would be like this DotA versus Fire Emblem example
Both can be described to have RPG mechanics. The problem of course is insisting on a single genre description that is far too vague. People were fine with genre hybrids back in the day because it's pretty obvious that only ever following a single rigid genre when making a game stifles creativity.
>People were fine with genre hybrids back in the day because it's pretty obvious that only ever following a single rigid genre when making a game stifles creativity.
That's not the issue though.
Ocarina of Time is not, and will never be an FPS. And describing Ocarina of Time as an FPS is more than silly.
So why are people calling action games and card games roguelikes, when they're not even turnbased RPGs with simulturns any more?
>People were fine with genre hybrids back in the day because it's pretty obvious that only ever following a single rigid genre when making a game stifles creativity.
Nobody is pressing for roguelites for stop being made. People just want lables to mean something and not being slapped onto everything as a marketing gag.
Because they're using the procedural generation and permadeath aspects of the games, as well as general rpg mechanics also associated with roguelikes (most roguelites have inventories and shops and stats/leveling). The same way deus ex is called an rpg/shooter because it does use mechanics associated with rpgs.
The real question is if you have a problem with the term that's been used, why haven't you provided an alternative? There's an obvious need for a term that can be used to describe this sort of thing. And roguelike was used because that is the genre that comes to mind when it comes to games using rpg mechanics with procedural generation and permadeath. Telling people not to use that term but not provide an alternative was never going to work as an argument.
3 months ago
Anonymous
We have. Roguelites. Which is also moronic, since most roguelikes have litte in common.
Best would be "Cardgame/Platformer/ARPG/whatever with roguelike elements".
3 months ago
Anonymous
>We have. Roguelites. Which is also moronic
Precisely, you'll complain anyway. >since most roguelikes have litte in common.
I assume you meant roguelites there and again that's because you aren't acknowledging that these games are basically all genre hybrids, >Best would be "Cardgame/Platformer/ARPG/whatever with roguelike elements"
Which is how a lot of these games describe themselves to begin with. Thing is most people could consider a game having elements of a certain genre to basically mean it's a hybrid of that genre.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Precisely, you'll complain anyway.
Its moronic because the name is way too similar to the point that you have to enunciate your pronunciation.
Distinguishing by like/lite is fricking awful
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Precisely, you'll complain anyway.
It's a stupid term, but I'd rather have you use them than mislabel them roguelikes. >again that's because you aren't acknowledging that these games are basically all genre hybrids,
What? No.
Because a platformer, an FPS, an RTS and an RPG play nothing alike. Calling them all roguelites is pointless, since it's not a good indication if somebody will enjoy the game. >Which is how a lot of these games describe themselves to begin with.
They used to, before calling your game a roguelike was easy marketing. >Thing is most people could consider a game having elements of a certain genre to basically mean it's a hybrid of that genre.
Most rogulites are 80-90% main genere + 10-20 % roguelike elements though
3 months ago
Anonymous
>What? No. >Because a platformer, an FPS, an RTS and an RPG play nothing alike.
Neither do FPS/RPGs, RTS/RPGs or Platformer/RPGs, but they can all be described as RPGs because that's the nature of genre hybrids. Am I really having to explain this to you? >since it's not a good indication if somebody will enjoy the game
Yes it is. People who like RPGs will often enjoy their genre being mixed with other genres. After all it's something they like mixed with something different. The prevalence of the roguelite as a genre is literally because people who like that sort of thing are attracted to other games using those mechanics, as acknowledged even by you: >calling your game a roguelike was easy marketing.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>but they can all be described as RPGs because that's the nature of genre hybrids
Actually no.
The thing you are referring to is commonly called "RPG elements" or just "progression" nowadays.
When a game can be actually called an RPG in good faith, you'll see strong parallels among the games that fall under that genre compared to the games that don't.
Most people would immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between New Vegas (solo FPS RPG) and Baldur's Gate 3 (party-based isometric RPG)
From the pic related, you can see that people don't really call Hollow Knight an RPG just because there is progression in the game.
Roguelites, meanwhile, are not a real genre. They are a set of criteria. A given game being a Roguelite means that the game has a form of permadeath and a form of procedural content generation. That's it, and nothing else.
There is not a single game in existence that can be meaningfully described as just "roguelite". You can pick up any roguelite you know, including the ones erroneously named "roguelike" and you'll realize it's ALWAYS "roguelite" + SOMETHING.
That SOMETHING is the actual genre of the game, the detail it's a roguelite just means permadeath and procedural content generation were added to it.
Roguelikes, meanwhile, is a proper, very specific genre. And, ironically, not all roguelikes would pass as roguelites.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Most people would immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between New Vegas (solo FPS RPG) and Baldur's Gate 3 (party-based isometric RPG)
And most people immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between Isaac (top down shooter roguelike/lite) and Balatro (card-based roguelike/lite). Including shops, stats, upgrades, consumables (both even have the same take on tarot cards), synergies and abilities that drastically effect how you go about playing from one run to the next. Alongside the obvious permadeath/procedural generated run stuff.
>you can see that people don't really call Hollow Knight an RPG just because there is progression in the game
Because metroidvania is a far more fitting term. Brings us back to the point that if there really was a big problem with the use of the term then you should have offered a better one.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>And most people immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between Isaac (top down shooter roguelike/lite) and Balatro (card-based roguelike/lite).
ya they roguelites should be called issaclikes
3 months ago
Anonymous
>And most people immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between Isaac (top down shooter roguelike/lite) and Balatro (card-based roguelike/lite).
You are disingenuously stretching the definition of "similarities".
Resident Evil 4 also has shops, stats, upgrades, consumables, "synergies and abilities", including the ones that can carry over your runs. Does it a roguelite now?
The similarities you are listing happen due to the formulaic approach to game making. i.e. many games are deliberately ripping BoI off because it's by far the most successful one.
Rogue Legacy is the game to coin the "Rogue-LITE" term and it doesn't have BoI-style shops, pick-ups, abilities, or crazy synergies.
It's first and foremost a run-based platformer with a meta-progression system you work with between the runs.
It's undoubtedly a roguelite but it plays nothing like BoI or Slay the Spire even if you try to appeal to very questionable metrics such as >there are shops and synergies
BoI and StS play very differently from one another as well. If you like one game you aren't guaranteed to like the other.
You might, as both games are very good, but that has nothing to do with their genres as they are very different.
But sure, let's say your definition of the genre is the >shops and synergies
one
and let's disregard the Rogue Legacy because that's an uncomfortable example.
What about FTL? It does have shops, that much is true, but it doesn't have BoI-style synergies in it.
What about Into The Breach? It's also a roguelite in a sense. It doesn't have shops and the only synergies it has are the synergies between the units in your squad (and pilot's skills).
Noita does have shops and it does have synergies but the latter isn't really anything like the synergies in BoI. In BoI, the "synergy" is lucking upon upgrades that work well with each other. In Noita "synergy" is making a wand that destroys the screen. Different processes, different outcomes.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Resident Evil 4 also has shops, stats, upgrades, consumables, "synergies and abilities", including the ones that can carry over your runs. Does it a roguelite now?
Well it definitely doesn't not have synergies/ability in the vein of isaac/balatro and more importantly isn't permadeath or procedurally generation so no. Dunno why you would say that.
You are identifying rpg-elements that stem from it being survival horror though. Both survivial horror and roguelikes basically being rpg sub-genres. >The similarities you are listing happen due to the formulaic approach to game making. i.e. many games are deliberately ripping BoI off because it's by far the most successful one.
Great! You've acknowledged the important part. That these games do have things in common! Which warrants a term to describe these influences (that's what a genre IS). Now that term will either be roguelike/roguelite or something you would prefer? Because again, the problem is you're not providing an alternative that you approve of. >BoI and StS play very differently from one another as well. If you like one game you aren't guaranteed to like the other.
This can be true of any two games. Even two of the same genre.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>and more importantly isn't permadeath or procedurally generation so no
Well yes, obviously. Because those are the only two mandatory criteria for a game being a roguelite, you figured it out, congrats. >Both survivial horror and roguelikes basically being rpg sub-genres.
No, Resident Evil 4 is not an RPG nor is it a subgenre of RPG anon, stop that. >Great! You've acknowledged the important part. That these games do have things in common!
And here you go being disingenuous again.
No, I address the things you were listing. You are saying that those are some massive genre-defining similarities (most of which happen to be in RE4 by the way). >Which warrants a term to describe these influences (that's what a genre IS). Now that term will either be roguelike/roguelite or something you would prefer?
Sure, the problem is, you've completely disregarded my point of how plenty of roguelites DO NOT HAVE those arbitrary similarities between two specific games you have listed. >This can be true of any two games. Even two of the same genre.
Yes and no.
It can be true to a degree but dismissing the statement as such is, yet again, very disingenuous. You yourself say >that's what a genre IS
Well, given your criteria for a genre is having shops and synergies, I can understand why that might confuse you, but games in a given genre have to be fundamentally somewhat similar.
Not the surface-level crap like "it has consumables!", no.
Disco Elysium and Might & Magic VII play NOTHING the like.
They are very different games.
But both games are undoubtedly RPGs - they do fulfill the fantasy of living as another character (or characters in the case of M&M) and growing through the experience.
A given player might like one game but not the other because of how different the games are, but most people will be able to immediately recognize the common parallels and on average, if the person likes one of the two games they are much more likely to like the other one and vice versa.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>No, Resident Evil 4 is not an RPG nor is it a subgenre of RPG anon, stop that.
Inventory system, stat mechanics, shops, enemy loot... > You are saying that those are some massive genre-defining similarities
They are elements of the genre. Which disprove the argument that there isn't similarities to be found between two games of this genre. >Sure, the problem is, you've completely disregarded my point of how plenty of roguelites DO NOT HAVE those arbitrary similarities between two specific games you have listed.
Because genres should be flexible as to not stifle creativity.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Inventory system, stat mechanics, shops, enemy loot...
And? That doesn't make a game RPG.
The things you listed don't even qualify as "RPG elements" presence of which even normalgays do not equate with RPGs, e.g. the Hollow Knight tags.
It's genuinely funny how unironic your stance on "shops and synergies" somehow defining a genre is.
I was lowkey just mocking you and trying to point out how weak your point was but you actually think like that, huh. >They are elements of the genre. Which disprove the argument that there isn't similarities to be found between two games of this genre.
You are misunderstanding the argument, though.
There ARE similarities between two roguelites, they go as follows:
1) Permadeath
2) Procedural content generation
No one argues with that.
The "argument" is that just "roguelite" on its own is not a proper genre.
Because when you hear the game is "roguelite" you only know that it has permadeath and procedural content generation.
You don't know ANYTHING about how the game plays.
Hence why it's not a genre. It's a feature set.
The word itself is useful as it appeals to a rather broad category of people, so it's being used. Sometimes properly, sometimes erroneously as "roguelikes".
The problem is, "roguelike" is a proper genre. When you tell someone a given game is a "roguelike" (assuming you aren't just misusing the word), you are actually telling them a lot about the gameplay of the game. >Because genres should be flexible as to not stifle creativity.
That's a great nothingburger, anon.
Creativity is indeed very stifled by the labels people put on things post factum.
Leonardo da Vinci was really stifled by having to draw in Renaissance style.
My favorite FPS is Civilization 5, btw. I worry I might stifle its creativity, though.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>And? That doesn't make a game RPG.
You're basically arguing that the only thing that defines RPGs is levelling > e.g. the Hollow Knight tags.
Again because metroidvania is a far more fitting description, same reason people don't call RE rpgs because survival horror is more fitting. >It's genuinely funny how unironic your stance on "shops and synergies" somehow defining a genre is.
I said it's elements that show up in the genre, you still seem to be struggling with the fact this shit is flexible and keep insisting on what "defines it". >Sure, the problem is, you've completely disregarded my point of how plenty of roguelites DO NOT HAVE those arbitrary similarities between two specific games you have listed.
No the problem is you still haven't produced a term you're actually happy with. And you keep avoiding that topic. >Because when you hear the game is "roguelite" you only know that it has permadeath and procedural content generation. >You don't know ANYTHING about how the game plays.
That's true of literally any genre. There's a lot that can be different of two games of the same genre. You will always at best only have an idea of what to expect. Which funnily enough is true of roguelites as well. >Creativity is indeed very stifled by the labels
If that's your insistence on how labels should work then why insist on them to begin with. And to that end, be upset by them being used "wrong"?
3 months ago
Anonymous
>You're basically arguing that the only thing that defines RPGs is levelling
No, and I have no idea where did you pull that from.
You, meanwhile, are arguing that "having shops" is something genre-defining, which is ridiculous. >metroidvania is a far more fitting description
If you didn't notice, there is like a dozen of various "descriptions" listed there. The point is, "RPG" is not one of them. >you still seem to be struggling with the fact this shit is flexible
No, you are struggling with figuring out what's a "genre-defining element" would be. Hint: "having shops" is not that. >you still haven't produced a term
That's objectively incorrect and came out of nowhere.
I'm not struggling with anything and I have everything named properly.
The only thing I don't like is when people misuse the term "roguelike" because it has a very specific meaning. >That's true of literally any genre.
This is factually incorrect, you are being delusional.
There is a major difference between "not knowing the specifics of a game" and "not knowing LITERALLY anything about its gameplay".
If the game is called an RPG (by adequate people, not by you, who thinks RE4 is an RPG), you have a rough idea what can that game be.
Of course, you don't know most of it, but you have some general outline.
"Roguelite" doesn't do that. Here we have you, an idiot who thinks "roguelite" implies BoI-like game design, but that's wrong and I gave you plenty of examples.
If you look at the "roguelite" tag and go into Cultist Simulator expecting BoI-like "shops and synergies" you're up for a surprise as those games' gameplays have virtually nothing in common.
Hence why "roguelite" is not a genre - it's a feature set.
There's nothing wrong with that, and I don't know why are you trying to pretend there is. >why insist on them
Because genre names are meaningful only when used properly
3 months ago
Anonymous
>No, and I have no idea where did you pull that from.
I'm just trying to find some logic to what you consider an RPG . You can just say what you consider an rpg yourself but I think you already realise the problem with that. >You, meanwhile, are arguing that "having shops" is something genre-defining
I literally said the fricking opposite to you: >I said it's elements that show up in the genre, you still seem to be struggling with the fact this shit is flexible and keep insisting on what "defines it".
>f you didn't notice, there is like a dozen of various "descriptions" listed there. The point is, "RPG" is not one of them.
Because again, people posted more specifc genre-labels, and RPG kind of is there: >One of the tags is "souls-like" >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Souls >Dark Souls is a dark fantasy action role-playing game
>you still haven't produced a term >That's objectively incorrect and came out of nowhere
"That you're happy with", you already said you aren't happy with "roguelite" (and you proceed to rant about it again in your post).
>If the game is called an RPG you have a rough idea what can that game be
So is that story-driven with a heavy focus on character dialogue and potentially little to no combat. Or something akin to diablo where there's a focus on dungeon-crawling and no characters dialogue at all?
>Because genre names are meaningful only when used properly
But the meaning is something you've just argued stifles creativity. Why want them to "work properly" then?
3 months ago
Anonymous
>You can just say what you consider an rpg yourself
RPG is a game the focuses on roleplay.
It implies creating or taking the role of meaningful characters you follow through the story, often decided or at least influenced by you, and you observe their progress and growth.
The so-called "RPG elements" are a very common metric of "progress" but you can make a game that qualifies as an RPG without having stats and level-ups.
Stalker would be an example of such a game.
There are departures from the genre that have their core roots in it but ultimately result in very different gameplay - one of those is Hack 'n' Slash, as it originated in RPGs that would disregard everything but combat.
Hence why Hack 'n' Slash RPGs are not RPGs proper. >I literally said the fricking opposite to you:
No, you don't understand what you are saying.
The criteria you listed were a) stupid and b) wrong
You have literally listed "shops and synergies" without understanding how moronic and reductive that is.
And it was proven wrong with the first example where you immediately had to backpedal to the "permadeath and procedural content generation".
"having shops" CAN be a titled feature set very much like "roguelite" is, if enough people care about it. The truth of the matter is: no one does.
The things you are listing are elements, the content. You are incorrectly judging that >"AHA, those two games have SHOPS, hence that genre name I heard MUST mean games that have it have shops!"
when that's is plainly wrong. >and RPG kind of is there
No, it's not. Because if you actually open Dark Souls itself, you'll see that RPG is on the list. Very high on the list, actually. >you already said you aren't happy with "roguelite"
No, I didn't?
I just stated the fact that "roguelite" is a feature set and not a genre name, that's it.
It's a factual statement, I don't "feel" either way about it. >something akin to diablo
see above >you've just argued stifles creativity
You did. I was being sarcastic.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>It implies creating or taking the role of meaningful characters you follow through the story, often decided or at least influenced by you, and you observe their progress and growth.
And I can think of many RPGs which funnily enough includes dark souls where the focus really is just dungeon crawling and not any of that.
>And it was proven wrong with the first example where you immediately had to backpedal to the "permadeath and procedural content generation".
No backpedalling, I literally acknowledged when I was talking about the two similarities what the core defining trait was: >Alongside the obvious permadeath/procedural generated run stuff.
>Because if you actually open Dark Souls itself, you'll see that RPG is on the list. Very high on the list, actually.
...that's just agreeing with me that it being called "Souls-like" is basically calling it an RPG. >You did
No I said it shouldn't stifle creativity. I didn't say it does. Mainly thanks to the fact that most people are happy to play fast and loose with genre labels so someone making a game of a certain genre isn't expected to follow every traditional facet of that genre.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>And I can think of many RPGs
*Hack & Slash RPGs
I knew you would say that despite me addressing it in advance because you don't really process the information you are being offered. >...that's just agreeing with me that it being called "Souls-like" is basically calling it an RPG.
No, you are wrong again.
I am literally disagreeing with you, point for point.
Dark Souls IS considered to be an RPG by people.
People (as in "general public") are generally not very good in properly naming things, hence why we have the whole "roguelike vs roguelite" problem.
However it is telling when virtually no one thinks Hollow Knight is an RPG - that was the point. Not that Steam tags are some sort of accurate metric for those things.
"Souls-like" is there because people do think that HK is a Souls-like and while that's not exactly true, HK does borrow a couple of Souls-like elements, so that judgement is understandable. >No I said it shouldn't stifle creativity. I didn't say it does.
And I attempted to point out how stupid the idea that people naming things after the fact can stifle creativity.
Sorry you didn't get that. >Mainly thanks to the fact that...
...it's literally impossible and the whole statement is ass-backwards.
"Genres" exist to help people find more of what they like. People don't start developing games (or, more generally, producing art) by going >"okay, I'm making %GENRENAME% thing, what's the list of mandatory criteria for that? >"oh frick, it's supposed to have SHOPS?" >"holy shit, and SYNERGIES too?" >"shit, that really stifles my creativity..."
they just make whatever the frick they want and people just label the thing afterward.
Labeling things accurately just helps everyone.
I once again invite you to play Cultist Simulator and come back to me with your impressions of shops and synergies of that game.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Hack & Slash RPGs
So still RPGs. And no. Not all RPGs with a focus on combat over characters/story are hack and slashes. That phrase tends to refer to RPGs where you have direct control of the character (i.e. you do the hack and slashing) . There are plenty of rpgs where you don't have direct control of the character that also focus on combat over characters/story. >Dark Souls IS considered to be an RPG by people >However it is telling when virtually no one thinks Hollow Knight is an RPG
They think it's like a game which they consider an RPG, so they consider it an RPG. For someone " literally disagreeing with you, point for point." you're completely refusing to address the point. >they just make whatever the frick they want and people just label the thing afterward.
And because them making whatever the frick they want means things can't always easily be classified most people then see sense to play loose with the genre labels.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>So still RPGs
That was also addressed. You have failed a literacy check again. >That phrase tends to refer to RPGs where you have direct control of the character (i.e. you do the hack and slashing)
That's not a part of the defined genre.
Icewind Dale is a hack 'n' slash game and it's party-based. >They think it's like a game which they consider an RPG, so they consider it an RPG. For someone " literally disagreeing with you, point for point." you're completely refusing to address the point.
No, you are just being disingenuous yet again because you have no point.
People think that Dark Souls is an RPG - there is RPG in the community-defined tags for Dark Souls.
People think Hollow Knight is Souls-like but don't think it's an RPG - there's a tag for the former but not for the latter.
Dark Souls "usually" implying (hack 'n' slash) RPGs doesn't mean anything because all those examples will also have RPG tag on them. Even Sekiro that's very low on "RPG elements" has users marking it as an RPG.
It's both funny and sad how desperately you try to twist words around to pathetically try weaseling your way out when your moronic and objectively incorrect points get exposed for what they are. >And because them making whatever the frick they want means things can't always easily be classified most people then see sense to play loose with the genre labels.
And?
Don't you see you are talking about nothing here, anon?
Yes, genres are rather vague approximations, no one argues against that.
But genres tend to DESCRIBE something, and the more niche a given genre is the more specific it becomes.
No one, absolutely no one, not a single person in the world benefits from genre names being misused.
No matter how "hard" is to "classify" shit, calling Civ 5 an FPS helps no one - and it shouldn't be done.
Roguelikes is a specific subgenre of Hack 'n' Slash RPGs. When you take take something that is not a roguelike and call it a roguelike - you are actively making things worse.
3 months ago
Anonymous
You mean when you said: >There are departures from the genre that have their core roots in it but ultimately result in very different gameplay - one of those is Hack 'n' Slash, as it originated in RPGs that would disregard everything but combat. >Hence why Hack 'n' Slash RPGs are not RPGs proper.
In which case you're compromising your argument that you're against genre names being used if you're fine with RPGs being used in the term "Hack 'n' Slash RPGs" >Icewind Dale is a hack 'n' slash game and it's party-based.
Looking it up that's not its defined genre. Even going by the steam tag argument. >People think Hollow Knight is like a game they consider an RPG but don't think it's an RPG
At this point we're just acknowledging that roguelikes don't have to follow rogue exactly because apparently being like a game doesn't require even being the same genre the original was. >Yes, genres are rather vague approximations, no one argues against that.
Except people who have this big hang up on the term roguelike being used loosely.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>if you're fine with RPGs being used in the term "Hack 'n' Slash RPGs"
I'm not "fine" with it. It's just the fact of life.
When you are talking about RPGs with normal people (i.e. not with you), there is always a clarification if the conversation about Hack 'n' Slash RPGs (i.e. Diablo-likes and such) or RPG proper, because the overlap between the player bases is rather small. >Looking it up that's not its defined genre.
Because you don't know what genres are.
Icewind Dale is the Hack 'n' Slash in its core definition - i.e. an RPG, D&D in this case, that primarily focuses on combat. If you try googling "Icewind Dale" and "hack 'n' slash" together you'll see people mentioning that a lot.
But it's a very different formula compared to Diablo-likes so general audience isn't aware of those distinctions. >that roguelikes don't have to follow rogue exactly
Yes, I agree with that. >because apparently being like a game doesn't require even being the same genre the original was
This is a dumb and disingenuous point you make, because that's very explicitly not what I said, but I'll let it slide because I agree with the aforementioned conclusion and it's better to move on. >Except people who have this big hang up on the term roguelike being used loosely.
It's not being used "loosely" it's being misused.
Here's an analogy.
At some points all FPS games were called Doom-clones. Because that's what they essentially were.
The gameplay of those "clones" become more and more varied over time, up to the point where it barely resembled Doom save for the first-person view.
Did people decide to continue calling them Doom-clones, when they played nothing like? No. They came up with a new, broader name - FPS.
You know it's first-person and you know you shoot stuff, that's it. You need more? Elaborate on that separately.
Calling something like FTL a "roguelike" is akin to calling Portal a Doom-clone, when some would argue it doesn't even qualify as an FPS.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>I'm not "fine" with it. It's just the fact of life.
So why isn't the usage of roguelikes also just a fact of life? >Icewind Dale is the Hack 'n' Slash in its core definition
Which weirdly isn't actually generally regarded genre and requires specifically googling the term to find it being referred to as that.
>Did people decide to continue calling them Doom-clones, when they played nothing like? No. They came up with a new, broader name - FPS.
This is bringing us back to the point that an alternative term isn't being provided. If you wanted a term that separates the association with rogue then why not make one?
3 months ago
Anonymous
>So why isn't the usage of roguelikes also just a fact of life?
It is but that doesn't mean I like it.
And people, including me, being vocal and annoying about it is the reason we have things like "Action Roguelikes", "Roguelites", and "Traditional Roguelikes" which makes looking up games by genre a bit easier.
If everyone was silent, everything would've been just "Roguelikes" and everyone who played the actual games of the genre would've been shit out of luck.
It's not just Roguelikes, by the way.
The last shump Steam sale had like 5% of real shmups and 95% of vampire Survivors clones because morons keep tagging them as "Bullet Hell" which is a specific subgenre of Shoot 'em ups (with most well-known games being Touhou)
Imagine the joy of shmupgays seeing that. >Which weirdly isn't actually generally regarded genre
Normalgays mostly use "action RPG" (ARPG) instead of "Hack 'n' Slash" and they mostly use it to mean "Diablo-like".
But that's a very broad term and it's not very useful when trying to be specific.
Because, say, Dragon's Dogma or Dark Souls are definitely Action RPGs (Hack 'n' Slashes, really) but not Diablo-likes. >This is bringing us back to the point that an alternative term isn't being provided.
But it is. Roguelite does cover all those games.
And some devs and people do use it.
The problem is that most don't.
It not being a proper genre is not a problem, because if you look at the earlier examples - Spelunky, BoI, FTL, etc. none of them describe itself as "roguelike" period.
It's always >"something-something with roguelike elements"
which is perfectly fine btw >"simulation roguelike-like" >"roguelike platformer" with "roguelike" in quotes
That specific usage never was a genre of its own - it always referred to a feature set.
Which "roguelite" is.
IMO people feel insecure about the name - how can it be "lite" when they are so hardcore?
Should've called it "rogueheavy" or "roguecool" instead.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>But it is. Roguelite does cover all those games.
But that's still associating it with rogue and not establishing it as its own thing. See the doom clone example. And as evident, roguelike purists still complain about the term anyway. Even you feel the need to talk about how its not an actual genre, but a "feature set" (aren't all genres essentially a set of features)?
Incidentally not sure how "roguelike elements" helps with your problem, it still means the game going to spring up in searches for that term.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>But that's still associating it with rogue and not establishing it as its own thing.
You can't really expect the devs and publishers to lose on marketing.
Yeah, it'd be even better if it was called whatever instead but "Rogue" is a cool marketing buzzword and you can't just expect people to drop it for no reason.
Eventually it might go full circle and people grow tired of "roguelike" everything and then another buzzword will be coined. >And as evident, roguelike purists still complain about the term anyway
Mostly about the lack of use. Roguelike purists tend not to care about roguelites. They don't like that they can't look up new roguelikes anymore without having to filter through hundreds of clearly not-roguelikes. >Incidentally not sure how "roguelike elements" helps with your problem, it still means the game going to spring up in searches for that term.
1) It's proper terminology. The game itself is not trying to present itself as something it isn't.
2) Things like that iron themselves out over time. Similar to how you don get every game with "RPG elements" (which is like every other game nowadays) when you search for RPGs.
3) Under a tag system that would imply a separate tag
The use of proper terminology being the main reason, honestly.
I have more respect for people who don't say their not-a-roguelike IS one.
They can use whatever term they want otherwise.
That holds true for all genres - just don't claim you are something you aren't and everyone will be happy.
If the genre name wasn't appropriated by morons, we could've had some nice terminology for further narrowing shit down within the genre.
I'd love to be able to use "Action Roguelike" for games like DoomRL, JH, and maybe ToME to separate them from "Traditional Roguelike" games such as ADOM, NetHack, and Angband.
Alas, Jupiter Hell is a "Traditional Roguelike" now and that's the best compromise I can ask for, even when it's, strictly speaking, not a very traditional roguelike.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Mostly about the lack of use.
No they get anal about the term being used as well. See
No it's not. Don't believe casino propaganda.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Those aren't roguelike purists.
Those are morons who think Berlin Interpretation is anything but worthless shit.
They miss the important distinctions >the unique turn structure (simultaneous turns) >being a Hack 'n' Slash subgenre
and focus on pointless crap >b-but what's the camera? >b-but muh permadeath >Identification minigame is MANDATORY >YOU DON'T GET IT, IN A ROGUELIKE YOU HAVE TO FIRST GO DOWN AND THEN GO UP REEEEEEEEEEEE >the grid must be SQUARE. Death to all hexgridgays!
and so on
Disregard them and move on.
Also, that specific picture is a meme, as it just says "nothing is Rogue" which is true, aside from Rogue itself, obviously.
3 months ago
Anonymous
And I can very well continue from
>And most people immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between Isaac (top down shooter roguelike/lite) and Balatro (card-based roguelike/lite).
You are disingenuously stretching the definition of "similarities".
Resident Evil 4 also has shops, stats, upgrades, consumables, "synergies and abilities", including the ones that can carry over your runs. Does it a roguelite now?
The similarities you are listing happen due to the formulaic approach to game making. i.e. many games are deliberately ripping BoI off because it's by far the most successful one.
Rogue Legacy is the game to coin the "Rogue-LITE" term and it doesn't have BoI-style shops, pick-ups, abilities, or crazy synergies.
It's first and foremost a run-based platformer with a meta-progression system you work with between the runs.
It's undoubtedly a roguelite but it plays nothing like BoI or Slay the Spire even if you try to appeal to very questionable metrics such as >there are shops and synergies
BoI and StS play very differently from one another as well. If you like one game you aren't guaranteed to like the other.
You might, as both games are very good, but that has nothing to do with their genres as they are very different.
But sure, let's say your definition of the genre is the >shops and synergies
one
and let's disregard the Rogue Legacy because that's an uncomfortable example.
What about FTL? It does have shops, that much is true, but it doesn't have BoI-style synergies in it.
What about Into The Breach? It's also a roguelite in a sense. It doesn't have shops and the only synergies it has are the synergies between the units in your squad (and pilot's skills).
Noita does have shops and it does have synergies but the latter isn't really anything like the synergies in BoI. In BoI, the "synergy" is lucking upon upgrades that work well with each other. In Noita "synergy" is making a wand that destroys the screen. Different processes, different outcomes.
What about Cultist Simulator?
What about Darkest Dungeon?
What about Don't Starve?
What about Sunless Sea?
What about Against the Storm?
You are arguing from the standpoint of not having enough experience.
Yes, there are many roguelites that borrow ideas from BoI because that's both a well-designed and a very successful game, but that's not what "roguelite" means and that doesn't apply to all roguelites.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>And roguelike was used because that is the genre that comes to mind when it comes to games using rpg mechanics with procedural generation and permadeath.
But roguelikes are RPGs. And turnbased RPGs with simulturns at that. It's kind of ridiculous that people reduce it down to nothing but procedural generation and permadeath.
Like. What if people reduced Point & Click Adventure games to how you point and click on stuff in them. And then started calling anything from RTSs to FPSs, to card games or stuff like minesweeper. Point & Click Adventure games.
It'd be ridiculous. Especially when those genres don't actually have anything in common beyond how you click on stuff.
>People were fine with genre hybrids back in the day because it's pretty obvious that only ever following a single rigid genre when making a game stifles creativity.
Nobody is pressing for roguelites for stop being made. People just want lables to mean something and not being slapped onto everything as a marketing gag.
>Deus Ex is a tactics RPG because you can be tactical and it has RPG elements >Deus Ex is a puzzle game because it has puzzles
It all depends on how far you stretch it. And most lites are far enough removed from the likes that they basically should not be allowed to count.
t. like enjoyer
>so taking a traditionally turn-based genre and making hybrids with real time ones managed to cause this big debate
Isn't that kind of understandable though? It does make for a foundational difference. Not all differences are equal.
But I mean. Take Fire Emblem for instance. Very typical, turnbased, gridbased Strategy RPG.
Now could you say that something like Unicorn Overlord is the same genre as Fire Emblem? Some might take issue at that. Univorn Overlord's map movement is after all, RTwP instead of being turnbased across a grid. But other than that it meets all the genre conventions. So even if it might spark some debate, but a lot of the time people just let such a claim fly.
But let's deviate further. Is DotA and Fire Emblem the same genre?
And I and most others would argue absolutely not. But why?
Genuinely. I'd argue that most roguelites versus actual roguelikes, would be like this DotA versus Fire Emblem example. And arguing that they are actually the same in spite of their many fundamental differences. Is frankly, ridiculous.
Using your example comparison, probably the best corrolary is the "arcade games" genre.
Just off that mention you probably have a few ideas in your head already. But if you compare the kinds of games you see in an arcade you realize that they play almost nothing like one another >fighting games >beat em ups >rail shooters >shmups >run and guns >single screen platformers >maze games >endless puzzle games >racing games >rhythm games
Then you have to take a moment to think of what actually connects them aside from physical location: they're all pay to play, on a run by run basis, with some allowing you to pump credits to continue from a game over, which lends itself to 1cc and score attack play, and others allowing endless play as long as you arent defeated.
"Roguelite" is the new "arcade game"
The name is inaccurate but people all understand what is actually meant by it
No. That's moronic. And some bullshit post-hoc attempt at explaining the genres. That was popularized by a youtuber that genuinely did not know what roguelikes were and had no experience with roguelikes beyond being a fan of roguelites and then learning that roguelikes were apparently a thing.
Yes obviously the only difference between a game like Nethack or DCSS and a game like BoI or Nuclear Throne is the meta progression, totally identical genres otherwise
>You put Pokémon Rescue team in this but you don't put my boy Chocobos Dungeon 2?
I would have. Almost did. But I wanted 10 rows in particular. Some cuts had to be made.
>best playthrough >floor 9? or 8 >fire an eldritch squid tentacle into a monster zoo >accidentally click the floor of the room or whatever the movement thing is >character runs into the middle of the room in a massive conglomeration of monsters and fricking gets torn limb from limb
whoops
I enjoy run-based games for having high replay value and having lots of options to having a successful run.
On some days I desire grid-based simulturn-based games, on other days I just want to shuffle a deck of cards, on others I just want some arcadey twinstick action. By these metrics I consider them to use the same game structure but ultimately differ in their moment to moment gamePLAY which is what really is what defines a genre.
The name of the game structure being conflate with genre is moronic though. The Berlin Interpretation was a mistake and we are left in this hell of snooty pedants that think they're better than everyone else and uninformed masses that use the convenient term because its "close enough" and is colloquially understood to the point that wrong terminology has become correct by reshaping the definition to the chagrin of the previously mentioned autismos
Roguelikes are awesome. Roguelites like balatro can be good but the twinstick ones like gungeon are dogshit with time being better spent on a good shmup instead. If you would rather play something like tiny rogues or gungeon over Dodonpachi, Mushihimesama or Ketsui you should be euthanized.
It is basically just a series of successive city building mini-scenarios where you unlock new stuff to build and have various different goals.
Pretty good summarization of the game I've read is that it is a city builder for people who like the idea of city builders but not city builder games.
You get a "run" where you build several cities in several different locations, what you find in these locations is somewhat random, with random modifiers and you unlock buildings and perks by picking out of random sets. It also has metaprogression.
>how is it possible to make a roguelike city builder?
make a city builder with a lose condition, then slap on "roguelike" in the description.
its that easy folks!
For me, it is Armoured Commander II with full realism settings.
Really underrated both as a roguelike and as a WW2 tank autism game. Pussies can make it braindead easy too by toning down realism and picking overpowered tanks for the campaign if they want.
I'll clear up the confusion >roguelike
a game that is literally nothing like rogue in any way whatsoever. Twin stick shooter, fps, racing game, sims 4, CoD, Halo, Summertime Saga >roguelite
a game that is nothing like the games called ''roguelikes'' and maybe there is some kind of progression system where you unlock things as you play
this is the moronic steam forums definition
a roguelite is what you've called a roguelike
a roguelike is a game that adheres to the berlin interpretation of the word (adventurer who moves through a grid-based world one tick at a time)
It makes beating one all the more satisfying. There is progression in a roguelike but its not your shiny upgraded gear or how many levels you increased - it's your growing knowledge of the game and its mechanics. With this new knowledge, you can normally do better in subsequent runs.
you unlock stuff as you play, new areas, new weapons, new mechanics that then allow you to continue further on the next run so there is still progression, but not just in a straight line
That’s boring, why should I replay levels I already passed if I want to reach new areas? Imagine going back to the tutorial everytime you die to a boss in Elden Ring, it wouldn’t be a fun game anymore right?
elden ring isnt balanced around it
what if you went to tutorial and you got a random set of weapons and armor that you then have to scale using other things? you would have to limit the wide open space to be fixed small locations which would make elden ring into a boss rush type of game instead where you get random items and have to pick and choose what to use in order to progress
that might be fun
I played this for a few hours back when Ganker first started spamming it. It was the most mediocre thing I've ever played, don't understand why it's still talked about.
It's really great if you like the sandbox style of games like CDDA, if you're the kind of person who prefers ascension style games then it's pretty bad
UnReal World
ADOM
[...]
It's really great if you like the sandbox style of games like CDDA, if you're the kind of person who prefers ascension style games then it's pretty bad
adom is utter dogshit, almost as bad as tome4, do not reply to me ever again
any games like these? didnt like ADOM and found unreal world to be boring as frick
really like long roguelikes where you can spend multiple days in a single "run"
IMO it would be Infra Arcana, free lovecraft inspired roguelike where you infiltrate a cult complex. It does stealth and light as a mechanic really well.
I've played a lot more roguelikes than most people, since I went through Roguebasin to try out literally anything remotely interesting and the fact is 99% of the roguelike genre is bad. Its almost entirely carried by DCSS, Sil/Q and *Bands (most of which are bad; essentially jsut Frogcomposband and Angband itself are any good)
Basically any other 'roguelike' people prop up is not one. Tome4 and Elona both default to non-permadeath, CDDA plays absolutely nothing like rogue, etc.
The majority of roguelies are in eternal alphas or just glorified renames (not even reskins; they just open the code in notepad + and change 'djinn' to 'anime') of existing projects made by people who actually tried.
Its a shame since some of these games would be fun if finished and some (like DeadManWalking) no longer seem to work on current windows
In comparison even the most blatant ripoff roguelike Slay the Spire wannabe feels more unique than the average roguelike, is actually finished, actually works and may even be fun.
That said, DCSS 0.15 is >>>>> every roguelite
[...]
This. Its also considerably out of date, so while it has tiles, they're so ugly and small they're very hard to try to parse. (Angband itself has fairly nice tiles now, as the only *band to have any notable updates in the last like 10 years)
Frog is noted for its fun classes and races, with basically every other roguelike in existence after Frog having anything it tries to do done in frog earlier; Frog has item crafting, Frog has anti-summoning mechanics, Frog has magical sword buffs, etc etc
Its good fun to play around in... until around level 30. Which comes fairly fast. There's a clear progression of dungeons to take, the encounters are mostly fairly fair and the dungeons aren't too much of a pain to navigate.
Problem is once you get to level 30 exp almost immediately becomes so pathetic the 'meta' is to go fight end-game enemies to level at a reasonable rate, the dungeons become incrediby, needlessly convulted, to the point it hurts to explore them (like physically hurts, I had to stop playing Frog for real because it was hurting my hands to play) and you start needing to stack 5+ of a dozen resistances to not be 1 shot by every other enemy, then pop a dozen teleports to try and land somewhere safe to heal.
It has the biggest disparity in quality between early and late game I've ever seen.
I'd rec trying it to about level 30 though
It is Angband but with an overworld and absurd content bloatmaxx.
This. Its also considerably out of date, so while it has tiles, they're so ugly and small they're very hard to try to parse. (Angband itself has fairly nice tiles now, as the only *band to have any notable updates in the last like 10 years)
Frog is noted for its fun classes and races, with basically every other roguelike in existence after Frog having anything it tries to do done in frog earlier; Frog has item crafting, Frog has anti-summoning mechanics, Frog has magical sword buffs, etc etc
Its good fun to play around in... until around level 30. Which comes fairly fast. There's a clear progression of dungeons to take, the encounters are mostly fairly fair and the dungeons aren't too much of a pain to navigate.
Problem is once you get to level 30 exp almost immediately becomes so pathetic the 'meta' is to go fight end-game enemies to level at a reasonable rate, the dungeons become incrediby, needlessly convulted, to the point it hurts to explore them (like physically hurts, I had to stop playing Frog for real because it was hurting my hands to play) and you start needing to stack 5+ of a dozen resistances to not be 1 shot by every other enemy, then pop a dozen teleports to try and land somewhere safe to heal.
It has the biggest disparity in quality between early and late game I've ever seen.
I'd rec trying it to about level 30 though
SilQ has nice tiles these days I have the popular opinion of preferring it to original Angband anyways, it suffers considerably less from the tedium issues the original has always had. Also I really like it's classless and levelless character progression and build variety.
Sil-Q is a fork of Sil that has further developed it. I think it is better, it especially overhauled skills to make all of them viable in at least some kind of builds.
If you try it, choose noldor elf as your first character. Sindar, dwarves and especially humans are basically higher difficulties.
3 months ago
Anonymous
is vanilla sil perfectly playable or is it kinda bullshit?
3 months ago
Anonymous
You will probably enjoy it just fine. None of it's issues are ruinous. Release not from Sil-Q's official release gives the basic gist of changes.
I have an issue with a lot of Roguelites because they end up effectively just requiring you die and upgrade between every floor to be strong enough to progress; so it ends up freling less like a Rogue, and more like a standard stage-based game where you just have to replay every prior stage whenever you reach a new one.
UnReal World
ADOM
[...]
It's really great if you like the sandbox style of games like CDDA, if you're the kind of person who prefers ascension style games then it's pretty bad
>Noita
finnshit reddit game >Dead Cells
absolute garbage platformer using roguelite as padding >Crypt of the Necrodancer
god tier, you don't even need to like rhythm games after they made bard mode for everyone >Enter the Gungeon
mid twinstick shooter with reddit humour >Into the Breach
beyond overhyped shitty game
Noita is great if you like fricking around.
Hard agree on Dead Cells, I have no idea why some people praise it so hard, it's a terrible game made worse by years of stapled on updates that just added loads of bloat that ends up contradicting so many core mechanics you have to wonder whether the game passed through six different teams or the devs are just schizos off their meds
>Noita is great if you like fricking around.
it could have been great if you didn't need to read 100 wiki pages and watch 10 youtube tutorials to even have an idea what to do
and after that it is still a cheese fest where the hardest cheeser wins
Noita is easily the best game on there but you have to have good taste + not be shit at video games to enjoy it.
Crypt of the necrodance is very ok, but i find it pretty disappointing. It does NOTHING with the rythm mechanic, theres literally 1 (ONE) time where the beat isnt just varying speeds of 4/4 and its for a single early game boss. So what you end up getting is a fairly shallow and short dungeon crawler but you have to move every half a second.
Enter the gungeon is fine, its feels like discount isaac. Its very easy to get completely overpowered with weapon synergies, but when you dont the game is a slog with bullet sponge enemies. Also doge rolling has no place in a game like this, especially one with no cooldown, drawbacks, or any real downsides.
I thought into the breach was alright. Everyone shitting on it is just upset its a puzzle game, didnt expect it to be a puzzle game, and didnt want to play a puzzle game. Its a puzzle game btw, in case you didnt know.
Never played dead cells
The only complaint ls i hear about it are related to it being a puzzle game, just like the post i replied to. I also said it was just ok, sorry if thats somehow shilling to you
>if it was good nobody would be shitting on it
You are on a board full of teenagers dedicated to shitting on things and calling people shills for no other reason than trying to fit into a culture they don't belong to
ItB is a terrible puzzle game though. The puzzles are all randomly generated and therefore are terrible at producing epiphanies or exploring interesting ideas. The character building doesn't really fit into the puzzles except to make future puzzles easier in particular ways. If it were just a puzzle game it would be utter trash.
What it actually is is a sequence of chess tactics, which you preemptively modify by character building.
I can just download lichess or soemthing on my phone if I wanted chess tactics
They are puzzles, but they're a very boring form of puzzle. Good puzzle games use puzzles to explore the possibilities of the rules, chess tactics are basically just random chess positions where there is a single winning move
There isn't any designer intent to the randomly generated tactics puzzles of ItB.
If theywere less puzzle-y and more strategic then it would be a decent member of the tactics genre. But as it is it's basically a random chess puzzle generator
Play every single game this fricking imbecile idiot
>Noita
finnshit reddit game >Dead Cells
absolute garbage platformer using roguelite as padding >Crypt of the Necrodancer
god tier, you don't even need to like rhythm games after they made bard mode for everyone >Enter the Gungeon
mid twinstick shooter with reddit humour >Into the Breach
beyond overhyped shitty game
I'll bite >Noita
It'll give you the closest experience to a traditional Roguelike out of all of the above. The formatting is difference since it's a real-time physics-based platformer, but it has the spirit of dungeon crawling baked into it. It'll probably be a hit-or-miss title if you ever try it. Non-players like to call it a wiki game, but you don't need to refer to any guides for the base game-- just the autistic side content.
>Dead Cells
It's a nice casual game, but doesn't play out like a dungeon crawler at all. There's not really much else I can say about it, it's a nice game.
>Crypt of the Necrodancer
Another good casual game. It's the inverse of Noita, where it more closely follows the formatting of a traditional roguelike while feeling nothing like one. I would recommend it on the merit of being fun, as well as having more widespread appeal than Noita.
>Enter the Gungeon
It plays at a snail's pace and had the misfortune of being juxtaposed against Nuclear Throne, which plays faster and is generally more fun. One's a shooter that wants to be a dungeon crawler and one's a shooter that wants to be an arcade game, and the format lends to the latter more than it does the former. It is an extremely mediocre game that you might like if you play it, but I'll be damned if I can think of any memorable moments in the game. One thing I will say that it has over something like Nuclear Throne, is polish. It could be a much better game if it were not shackled by its inherently slow gameplay.
>Into the Breach
Never tried it. It's not my cup of tea.
Noita would be fine if it wasn't a fricking slog every fricking run starts with 25+ minutes of nothing but slowly waddling around, then after you go thru all the cave in the hopes of finding a tp bolt and a black hole you must spend the next 2 hours traversing parallel worlds eliminating as many mechanics from the game as you can since it's so well balanced.
Just to die at the 9th hour of the rour to polymorph
Noita:
Boring. HP ups are hidden in walls, getting to them is tedious, people compensate for this via exploits to have like 10 billion hp v enemies who do < 1% of that in damage. Takes too long for you to get the tools needed to make good wands and it mostly just boils down to slotting in a chainsaw.
>Deadcells
Meh. Impressive variety in attacks, but randomization so poor it may as well not exist. Loses my interest a few areas in when half if not all enemies start just teleporting directly onto you and it just turns into a dps check game.
>Crypt
Suck game, rhythm shit sucks
>Gungeon
Fricking awful. Worst game in this list. It has synergies; but so specific you'll likely never see any. It has a lot of guns; 99% of which aren't worth using because ammo is so limited. It has randomization; so poor its just the same shit every time.
>Breach
Got bored and played FTL again
Play every single game this fricking imbecile idiot [...] said it's bad, and ignore necrodancer
This but the opposite.
Listen to the guy who gave actual reason and not the sapient penis who just comes in to say >Lol I am a contrarian, like the games because I said so, no I won't say why XD
Ok, so I have decided to get these games as an introduction to roguelikes:
Tales of Maj’Eyal
Ancient Domains of Mystery
Cogmind
Rift Wizard (not sure whether to get this or the second game)
Noita
Caves of Qud
Against the Storm
>Rift Wizard (not sure whether to get this or the second game)
Id say get the first one rn. The second one is still in beta and definitely needs a lot more time in the oven. The first one also has challenges and achievements to keep you occupied for a bit once you get tired of the normal mode. If you like it enough then id say get 2 in a year or so.
Cogmind is pretty different to standard RL conventions when it comes to core mechanics, it's also fairly demanding when it comes to learning.
Qud is also pretty out there in scope, it's much more RP focused than the average RL which is largely about a specific kind of difficulty design and juggling around a tight set of core mechanics, it's not super autistic like UnReal World but I feel like it's not such a good suggestion for beginners, especially if ADOM is on the same list.
I'd personally add: >Dungeons of Dredmore
Fairly casual game, really good for getting your feet wet with basic RL conventions >Zorbus
Easy going ascension style game that focuses on the bare fundamentals, it's basically a more succint (and much more elegant) DCSS with some nice elements like focus on recruiting characters and some great atmosphere due to the focus on audio cues and general ingame banter with NPCs
Tome is completely fine. It has a lot of info bloat in its skills, but other than that (and you can just play simple classes like everyone else does), its a very simple game. No need to worry about grinding because its anti-grind, no need to worry about consumables because its anti-consumable, just go do the areas you can when you can and if you're totally outclassed try to be a higher level or equip better next time.
Adom is also fine. You don't NEED to read shit for Adom. You just play. There are some things that frick you over, but you just learn about them later, you don't need to know them going in. You don't play a roguelike expecting to beat the game first run.
Cogmind and Riftwizard are both awful examples. They have no hp regen. They fundamentally do not play like rogue and are not roguelikes. They're glorified puzzle games. If he plays them, he's not even getting a 'rogue like' experience.
Jupiter hell too AND Tangledeep have no hp regen and play nothing like rogue.
The ideal first roguelike, as always, is DCSS 0.15. It plays like rogue. It has good QoL. It has good variety in spells. Its mostly fair.
[...]
Tome4 is free.
Adom is free.
Riftwizard, Noita, Cogmind are not roguelikes.
QuD is overpriced (dunno when they hiked the price up; I paid a fraction of the current cost and it was only 10% off when I bought it)
I googled that last game and its also clearly not a roguelike.
QuD is a good start if you can get it cheap. Very easy game. You can just pick a shield and light manipulation on chargen and that trivializes almost every enemy in the entire game.
Light Manipulation is kinda useless on the current Qud versions, still really good for early game but it's already pointless by Bethesda Susa tier content where you have to deal with things that have actual defense or have normality gimmicks.
The real big cheese of current Qud is Corrosive Gas brapper builds, that's still mostly autowin if you're not a total moron.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Aww down say that. I love Light Manipulation though I have never gotten past whatever dungeon is meant to be after the poison/asphalt ones Can't wrap my head around this shit.
tome has way too much going on for your first roguelike
adom has even more shit you would need to read than tome but its at least simpler
never played cogmind
rift wizard seems like a decent option to get into the genre
I think you are better off playing a simpler roguelike first to learn the genre conventions before moving onto more complicated things, but it isn't as if you have to, personally I went straight from playing pokemon mystery dungeon to tome and it was fine.
stuff like jupiter hell, rogue fable, tangledeep, and others are good entry level roguelikes to get you started
dungeon crawl stone soup is also something to try out (dcss)
Tome is completely fine. It has a lot of info bloat in its skills, but other than that (and you can just play simple classes like everyone else does), its a very simple game. No need to worry about grinding because its anti-grind, no need to worry about consumables because its anti-consumable, just go do the areas you can when you can and if you're totally outclassed try to be a higher level or equip better next time.
Adom is also fine. You don't NEED to read shit for Adom. You just play. There are some things that frick you over, but you just learn about them later, you don't need to know them going in. You don't play a roguelike expecting to beat the game first run.
Cogmind and Riftwizard are both awful examples. They have no hp regen. They fundamentally do not play like rogue and are not roguelikes. They're glorified puzzle games. If he plays them, he's not even getting a 'rogue like' experience.
Jupiter hell too AND Tangledeep have no hp regen and play nothing like rogue.
The ideal first roguelike, as always, is DCSS 0.15. It plays like rogue. It has good QoL. It has good variety in spells. Its mostly fair.
Ok, so I have decided to get these games as an introduction to roguelikes:
Tales of Maj’Eyal
Ancient Domains of Mystery
Cogmind
Rift Wizard (not sure whether to get this or the second game)
Noita
Caves of Qud
Against the Storm
Anything else I should add?
Tome4 is free.
Adom is free.
Riftwizard, Noita, Cogmind are not roguelikes.
QuD is overpriced (dunno when they hiked the price up; I paid a fraction of the current cost and it was only 10% off when I bought it)
I googled that last game and its also clearly not a roguelike.
QuD is a good start if you can get it cheap. Very easy game. You can just pick a shield and light manipulation on chargen and that trivializes almost every enemy in the entire game.
Remind me when Rogue was about avoiding persistent damage because of the lack of health regen.
Which I already outlined in my post.
Rogue you entered every fight with all resources max unless you ran into a fight before healing, with all resource management being extremely short term outside of items.
Any game where you are managing resources such as hp on the long-term is fundamentally not like rogue and not a roguelike.
I know you won't accept this explanation because Cogmind faboys are all the same, but I will accept your decision to be wrong.
>Remind me when Rogue was about avoiding persistent damage because of the lack of health regen.
So is ADOM not a roguelike then?
You can easily cause yourself "persistent damage" - just not in the form of HP. Equipping curse items, getting Cursed/Doomed, item destruction/degradation, etc. all can be argued to be "long-term damage"
Well, sometimes HP as well. You can lose max HP in DCSS or Jupiter Hell. Fairly permanently as well in the latter.
But even in ADOM you might starve if you try to naturally regenerate all your health between every encounter, at least early on.
And then there is the whole thing about hoarding water. blessing and identifying items, going back to altars because of all of that, growing herbs, etc. There is a lot of long-term management in ADOM.
And there is plenty of roguelikes with "long-term resource management" overall - not everything is ToME.
Thinking that adding HP to the list of resources that you have to long-term manage is somehow disqualifying a game from being a roguelike is incredibly arbitrary.
There are games where healing is readily available, there are games where it's not - we don't have different genres for those.
The difference is just in difficulty and design and balance of combat encounters.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I accept your decision to be wrong.
3 months ago
Anonymous
And I accept your concession.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Thanks bro. 'Preciate that. 'Preciate you. You're a good man, brother. Peace.
Nethack is a classic for a reason, but it's very...esoteric in a lot of choices until you actually learn what the frick you're doing. It's still good but you really stand no chance of surviving long unless you look at a wiki or learn via dying 50 times. But if you pick it up, roll a Dwarven Valkyrie, it's regarded as the easiest class.
Angband and its variants are also fun although the format, especially in the variants like zAngband and Frogcomposband (two that I've played) focuses a lot more on the hack n slash grindy nature of the genre. You still progress a bit like most roguelikes, but it's more about acquiring sheer strength and volume of powerful items, rather than the breadth of options available like in most RLs. Because of this I would recommend going into the settings and enable Auto-Identification and even turn on respawning, as an Angband character is something that takes several times longer than most RL chars to play, and deaths are still just as bullshit. But that's okay because it's still a roguelike, permadeaths are not mandatory for a RL.
Also play PMD if you really want baby-mode roguelikes. Then move on to Shiren the Wanderer for more of a challenge.
This. It's probably one of the most accessible roguelike
Ok, so I have decided to get these games as an introduction to roguelikes:
Tales of Maj’Eyal
Ancient Domains of Mystery
Cogmind
Rift Wizard (not sure whether to get this or the second game)
Noita
Caves of Qud
Against the Storm
Anything else I should add?
I'd say Shiren the Wanderer series, likely 5, as it's of the few you don't need an English patch to play. Shiren 1 on the SFC/SNES was one of the hardest games I've beaten. Shame they never brought back the monster meat mechanic.
Roguelike is a Hack 'n' Slash RPG with simultaneous turns. >Hack 'n' Slash RPG
is not a mix of two genres, it's a singular genre and is a subgenre of RPG. Most well-known examples of Hack 'n' Slash RPGs are games like Diablo. >simultaneous turns
is the big thing that distinguishes roguelike gameplay from any other genre.
Everything else is optional. There are traits that are very common to roguelike games but they are not fundamental. >permadeath
Very common but not mandatory. Rogue/Nethack/ADOM don't magically change genres if you savescum
There are roguelikes that either don't have permadeath or have optional permadeath, for example ToME4 or Stoneshard >permanence of choices
as the alternative to or an extension of permadeath.
The main reason Rogue had both permadeath and lacked save/load mechanics was because of its identification minigame, which would be rendered useless if the player had the option of reloading.
Overall it aligns deeply with the game design philosophy of most roguelikes but that's just one of the possible approaches - it's not genre-defining. >grid
Pretty much always present but only because if you're making a roguelike game it's very hard to make it work without the grid.
Hard but not impossible - see the webm related >procedural generation of content
Common but not genre-defining.
Most HnS RPGs have a degree of procedural generation because it suits the genre well. But nothing stops you from making a roguelike with fully static content.
Likely, you'll not be playing to the strengths of your game but who knows? All the best moments of DoomRL happen in the static pre-made levels.
The Berlin Interpretation is dogshit.
It deliberately does not define what "Roguelike" is.
The only thing it can do is assess how "Roguelike" a given game is using a set of very arbitrary criteria yet it can never be used to claim something is or isn't a Roguelike.
It's a waste of everyone's time and as such should be disregarded.
Cool tech demo but it fails to realize that the reason turn based games don't simulate time like this is that removing real time input makes the simulation mwaningless, and it's cleaner to just abstract everything that relied on continous time away. It's kind of a silly hybrid taking the worst of both real time and turn based combat
You are half-right.
There are reasons and those reasons mostly >it's a waste of everyone's time when you know what you are doing
But you are wrong about games "not simulating time".
No, most roguelikes do simulate time. The turns aren't atomic - behind those turns there's usually some sort of "Energy" system that decides who gets to act when.
Most actions entities in the game take are instantaneous but have "energy" cost resulting in post-action cooldown period.
As the result, all actions can take less or more time that the usual "turn" would imply.
Having a clear visual feedback allows for implementing "time required for action" systems easier as they'd be obvious to the observer, as opposed to weird and unintuitive in a more traditional approach.
As such, you avoid unexpected double-turns or actions seemingly not taking turns as the approach makes the simulation visible instead of abstracting it away.
And in terms of animations being an unnecessary fluff for a turn-based game - that's kinda true but there's a threshold where player is willing to accept the animation.
Most modern roguelikes play with that idea.
>is the big thing that distinguishes roguelike gameplay from any other genre.
Agreed. I've longed for the day someone would make a action rpg where the world only moves when you do. Imagine something like SUPERHot crossed with Elden Ring or DD.
Cool tech demo but it fails to realize that the reason turn based games don't simulate time like this is that removing real time input makes the simulation mwaningless, and it's cleaner to just abstract everything that relied on continous time away. It's kind of a silly hybrid taking the worst of both real time and turn based combat
By simulating time you can see tells, and during pauses you can plan. I can see it being interesting to juggle with multiple enemies.
I agree that simulturn taking is the real core of what people call roguelike.
If you have literally everything else the same but the game isn't tile based it doesn't suddenly become less like it. There should be no obligation to follow a square grid: you can have a hex tesselation, a voxel game, or a free form like your webm and Id argue in defense of it.
Too many people are attached to a specific combination of mechanics to really assess whether ironman mode really does make it a new genre (many games include it as a difficulty option), or how having some sort of overarching progression doesn't change the gameply itself (see mystery dungeon games), and while a change in genre is definitely a lot more significant of a change, the genre's DNA can still persist in a different environment.
This hierarchy of genre immediately seems weird to me, because you're saying that roguelikes are a type of HnS RPG, when HnS RPGs are seemingly games descended from roguelikes (e.g. Diablo). So there would have been some span of time where roguelikes existed, but HnS RPGs had not yet begun to exist. Were roguelikes, at that time, a subgenre or a genre that did not then exist? Or did they retroactively change genres when HnS RPGs emerged?
I'm also not sure if simultaneous turn taking is particularly more important than non-modality, permadeath, controlling of a single character, etc. I think any element one could consider to be 'rogue-like' you could easily make a game, if not find an already extant example of one, that lacks that element yet clearly is a roguelike.
No, if it doesn't have the step based turn system, it can't be a roguelike. Dwarf fortress in fortress mode is still more of a roguelike than any real time game.
>when HnS RPGs are seemingly games descended from roguelikes (e.g. Diablo)
No, Hack 'n' Slash was a common name for tabletop RPG campaigns that focused primarily on combat mostly disregarding the story and whatnot.
The concept itself predates computer RPGs and the specific term is at least as old as Rogue itself.
There were other games predating Rogue (for example Beneath Apple Manor) following similar concepts, because HnS RPGs are generally well translated to video games.
Diablo is not a forefather of HnS RPGs but just the most recognized example of that genre.
>I'm also not sure if simultaneous turn taking is particularly more important than non-modality, permadeath, controlling of a single character, etc. I think any element one could consider to be 'rogue-like' you could easily make a game, if not find an already extant example of one, that lacks that element yet clearly is a roguelike.
It absolutely is. >non-modality
That's an arbitrary nothing-burger criterion.
Most "canon" roguelikes do not pass it.
It's just cute that in, say, ADOM you drop and pick up shit to sell and buy it respectively but it's completely inconsequential to the core gameplay itself. >permadeath
If you savescum in ADOM it won't change genres. You just savescummed, that's it.
If you make ADOM real-time you have MASSIVELY changed the way it plays. >controlling of a single character
It's as important as controlling a single character in an RPG is.
If you control too many character the game starts leaning towards strategy and stops playing like a HnS RPG.
That's why Dwarf Fortress isn't roguelike, despite at a glance looking like one - it's not a HnS RPG.
But the same way you can very well simulate an RPG inside a strategy game, Dwarf Fortress offers a very solid roguelike experience in its Adventure mode.
One could absolutely make a party-based roguelike, it's more of a question how do you keep the game being a HnS RPG instead of becoming something different.
I always got really confused by this. I always thought like was "full reset each time" and lite was "unlockables to make later runs easier" but it seems that's completely wrong.
Roguelike is a very specific genre of game which is very easy to understand if you look at and play just a few of them.
Roguelite is a meaningless label that only spawned from people improperly trying to call their games roguelikes despite very obviously not being even remotely similar to roguelikes outside of a small number of gameplay features. There is no actual similarity between roguelites other than their insistence on trying to co-opt an inappropriate label for no particular reason.
If it's not 'like Rogue', then it's definitively not a 'Rogue-like'
"Roguelite" is a meme genre that doesn't really exist because all the games using it trying to associate themselves by proxy to actual Rogue-likes are actually just genre-confused because they erroneously all think that 'permadeath + procgen' is enough to be associated with true Rogue-likes.
I've played a lot more roguelikes than most people, since I went through Roguebasin to try out literally anything remotely interesting and the fact is 99% of the roguelike genre is bad. Its almost entirely carried by DCSS, Sil/Q and *Bands (most of which are bad; essentially jsut Frogcomposband and Angband itself are any good)
Basically any other 'roguelike' people prop up is not one. Tome4 and Elona both default to non-permadeath, CDDA plays absolutely nothing like rogue, etc.
The majority of roguelies are in eternal alphas or just glorified renames (not even reskins; they just open the code in notepad + and change 'djinn' to 'anime') of existing projects made by people who actually tried.
Its a shame since some of these games would be fun if finished and some (like DeadManWalking) no longer seem to work on current windows
In comparison even the most blatant ripoff roguelike Slay the Spire wannabe feels more unique than the average roguelike, is actually finished, actually works and may even be fun.
That said, DCSS 0.15 is >>>>> every roguelite
Sorry I couldn't even get past your first paragraph without a buzzword and a generic statement of disaproval so I didn't read the rest
One day you will learn how to actually hold a conversation and not be a parrot
We're supposed to hate DCSS now? Sigh ok ill update my script
dcss has been consistently removing content and mechanics just for the sake of the speedrunning community that formed, disregarding the rest of the players
like the entire hunger and food system for example
This is why I specifically said 0.15
Kimchi is also fine if you ignore the new gods because they're all really poorly designed and the hydra race for same reason
one of the most important aspects of a roguelike is to have a food clock of some sort to discourage taking your sweet fricking time and encourage actually moving forward and using your resources. however dcss' new implementation isn't interesting at all and also way way way too lenient
I think Frozen Depths is really good and underrated one, it just is hard as balls despite being really fun to play, and it is a finished game as far as the dev is concerned.
>Points me to a 'preconfigured shortcut' >Its not >Have to set it up myself or the text bugs out if you move screen at all >Need to set up 2 different shortcuts in the same shortcut
Oof, no wonder this is underrated, this is archaic even by genre standards despite this apparently being updated as recently as 2021
Also >Walk forward once I get this working, start a fight >9 (nine) total enemies bumrush within 10 tiles of spawn before I've grabbed a single item in the 'tutorial' (which is just an info dump)
Oof
It's like a mix between a text adventure game and a dungeon crawler. Probably the best out of the original ascii roguelikes. Many hidden mechanics, though. The game has an in-game note system for a reason. Play it blind if you're a masochist, although if you win doing that NOBODY can claim you're bad at videogames.
The problem with roguelikes is that it's very hard to make a good one but very easy to make a game that looks like it. its hard for the consumer to know between an insanely good one and a meh one without trying them themselves and playing for quite some time. im sure a well designed roguelike that has been refined for years can be really deep and enjoyable but games are never thoroughly designed these days, much easier to shit dollars on jeets to make graphics than having talented people who think and refined an harmonious system until its reaches a satisfactory degree of depth and fun
the thing that i miss from new games is the difficulty. back when the games didnt compromise, where you lost at the first level, and the game had much depth to offer and felt like something grand a mysterious, that felt like it could never be mastered (uinless you invest too much time) and had much surprises. it gave the game a soul in a sort of way. its kindof the ultimate RPG type in terms of gameplay, kinda feels like a Lone Wolf gamebook. i wonde rif a 3D roguelike is possible, itd require to be really good to make for the huge budget necessary to make so much 3D assets and systems visually represented
I also wish they went back to add more RPG stuff (pick keys scrolls etc) when nowadays they seem to exclusively focused on combat
no one actually uses roguelite, and barely anyone plays that kind of roguelike. Just accept that you have to use "traditional roguelike" since everyone else calls their games roguelikes.
yes, going into a thread of a topid you dont care about, arguing about the arguments happening in it, and then being mad about it >*autism beam noises*
I do care about it, but the whole discussion stems from "officially" undefined terms which evoke differing ideas on people. Then they argue which one of the headcanons is correctest.
I do care about it, but the whole discussion stems from "officially" undefined terms which evoke differing ideas on people. Then they argue which one of the headcanons is correctest.
What a dumb question. Wheres the metroid in hollow knight? The vania in ESA?
And to answer your gay question the vania is in metroid itself becuase the term started as a way to describe castlevania games that played like metroid than evovled over time. Thats like saying "wheres the roleplaying" in literally any rpg
>Embers
Good DLC. Has its own campaign. But you're barely played the base game, which is far better balanced (at least the first half). Get this if you end up really liking tome4 and wanting more variety.
>Ashes
Fun classes, no real content beyond this. Get this if you like the sound of the classes and have played all sounding fun vanilla ones.
>Cult
Don't even get this one unless you want the overpowered race. Its classes are incredibly boring (one boils down to rote sequence of actions, the other just takes years to kill anything) with RNG based cooldown, it barely adds any content, what content it does add is hidden behind spoiler based mechanics listed literally nowhere with no guides for finding any of it so you'll never find 99% of the DLC (the frick was the dev thinking?) and despite this it costs the most.
tldr;
Get embers and ashes later
They are seperate campaigns, but I think they are meant for when you are done and sick of the main one.
Only one of them is a seperate campaign. I really don't get why you feel the need to comment without knowing the most basic info, its actively unhelpful.
The best Roguelikes are the ones that just world simulators + RPG, so CDDA, Elona and Unreal world were my favorite, also DF adventure mode i had alot of fun in, but its easily the most undercooked Roguelike out there. Honorable mention to lifeweb as well, but its really not a Roguelike, more of an round based MMO with perma death for your one character.
>The best roguelikes are the ones that don't play like rogue at all
Based secondary
None of the games you mentioned are roguelikes.
I was bored out of my mind with it. Enemies feels meaningless, massive mountain trolls get 2shot just like wolves and rats. Gear felt meaningless, number vomit and UNIQUE ONE OF A KIND ARTIFACTS flooding my inventory and these artifacts are barely better than my regular shit.
Incomprehensibly ugly sprites, especially the walls, sometimes can barely tell I'm entering a building because of how scuffed it looks.
Lots of builds with skills and passives all over the place yet few of them actually feel meaningful. Either 50 turn cooldowns or shitty tiny number incrementals.
Nothing feels satisfying to play. Everything feels weightless and effortless until you randomly stumble upon a forrest rat with a red circle around it and it oneshots you.
Anons I got cogmind but I am bored because I find myself doing the same strategy over and over again, and it just seems like the best thing to do no matter what, I can't into making different builds
The best Roguelikes are the ones that just world simulators + RPG, so CDDA, Elona and Unreal world were my favorite, also DF adventure mode i had alot of fun in, but its easily the most undercooked Roguelike out there. Honorable mention to lifeweb as well, but its really not a Roguelike, more of an round based MMO with perma death for your one character.
Its lifeweb, Soul breakers are a group of futuristic spacer Arabic space pirates that beam down onto the planet to enslave people heavily inspired by Dune. They are a playable late game based event you can opt-into. They are even getting there own spin-off game set in the same universe. soon
oh yeah scorcher
im hyped i actually got inside lfwb but the interaction with objects were too much for me and didnt manage to learn much before newbie november ended and i was too afaird to go in and frick up at the most basic shit infront of everyone so i just never connected again
nah, homie. You're okay, the best parts of Lifeweb are when you are still new and learning what all the game has to offer and its limitations. No one really cares how new you are so long as you don't spout Redditor shit.
i was a priest once and someone asked me to deal with zombies and i just stood there trying to navigate the menu to find where the button was while everyone else got mauled to death, same round where i nearly drowned myself trying to shit in a river
like, i wouldnt care as much if i wasnt also ruining shit for everyone around me, the worst part is letting down others
3 months ago
Anonymous
Oh, fellow cave mig huh, Well let me tell you. Craft two stone blocks and place them in a door way surrounded by all rock walls/stone walls. Zombie homosexuals cannot pull anything only push, you've effectively completely Zombie proofed your base, make sure to do it next to a natural river or Aquifer and you will never die to a zombie homosexual again.
Also, believe me, i've done worse things. Try mining rock walls at the beginning of a Mig round and causing a cave in on the entire party 2 minutes into the round, The amount of seethe i got in OOC at the time was hilarious, but its all in good faith and just part of the game experience. You'll get better eventually.
roguelite itself is such a meme genre. I own like 100 of them. Barely any of them play the same. Some are top down shooters, some are card games, some are top down melee combat games aping the style of a flash game I've long forgotten the name of (raksasi is like this, I know there's an old game I played that looked basically the same perspective and artstyle wise), some are shooters, some are sidescrolling action games, etc etc
It really just seems to be a label for devs to put on games they
A: Have no actual map designer for
And B: Have no one capable of balancing
So you run through random (but never randomated enough to not feel the same every run) maps and stack + attack until you win via grind
Sometimes to the detriment of the game, like Breach wanderer requiring nearly 100 complete runs to max its classes or Gunfire Reborn requiring you to nearly max the metaprogression for protection v being 1 shot when enemies can crit and 1 shot you as early as the second area
Isaac tied almost all of its progression to completing very specific tasks and its the inspiration the majority claim if they claim one, so I don't get how so many turn Isaac's system to "die 50 times get +1 attack"
homosexuals saying "it's not really a roguelike" because it's not a 1:1 reskin of rogue are like the homosexuals saying an obvious Mary Sue character isn't a Mary sue because she's not 1:1 with the original Mary Sue story which was actually made extremely exaggerated on purpose since it was a parody of the trope.
I will keep calling TboI a roguelike and you'll keep seething about it.
For me I really term roguelite to differentiate between games that have a permeant progression system and not. The term roguelite is a thing now, you might as well use it to help separate stuff for the thing the damn thing was made for, you know, conveying differences. I think some people take offense to the term "Roguelite" as if an attack on there ego.
Having rogue-likes for games that are like rogue, and rogue-lites for games that feature perma-death and random stuff would be ideal, but most people don't bother enough to even understand the diference.
QuD is trash. Giant open world for no reason, all these systems that hint at depth but don't actually provide any, 99% of battles are best handled by either using every one of your mutations/cybernetics then running away until they're off cooldown, or jiding behind force wall and shotting everything the with the carbine.
Trash exploration, trash combat, and somehow even trash character building despite having so many options
It is absolutely the biggest waste of fricking time in the entire genre, stay away
Can I just get a normal fricking video game not a "metroidvania roguelike" like seriously we never called shit autistic beardsoy names like this back in the day.
Oh are we playing the "taking genre names literally" game? Super Mario 64 is an RPG because you play the role of Mario? Zelda is a strategy game because you make strategic decisions? Sim City is an action game because you perform actions in it?
>Risk of Rain 2 is a roguelike
Dumb thing to say >Risk of Rain 2 is a roguelike third person shooter
I am now informed of what your game is like, thank you for sharing
First person, shooter and isometric all mean singular things as defined by the very name so they either are that or not. That's not the case with the term roguelike. Not to mention it would be a pretty boring genre if they all played exactly the same.
Roguelike specifically means a top down view game played on a grid map. This directly contradicts "third person".
3 months ago
Anonymous
No it specifically means "like rogue" without any clear definition in what ways matter. Which is why this whole thing became a big debate.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>clear definition
Its.. in the name.
Being like rogue
3 months ago
Anonymous
>without any clear definition in what ways matter >in what ways matter
3 months ago
Anonymous
What is the common gameplay element between Isaac, Faster than Light, Risk of Rain and Slay the Spire?
Randomly generated routes? I almost said randomly generated maps, but some of those games don't even have an map. That's literally the only thing. Indie games with randomized elements. That's your """""genre"""".
Instead of roguelike, may I recommend calling the subgenre as "indieshit"? Or roguelite if you really, really have to.
3 months ago
Anonymous
It’s less of a debate and more of a >guy on the internet shits his diaper for attention
>CDDA leave early access
It's not in EA. It's in continuous development. "Leaving EA" just means it getting abandoned with no more content.
If you don't like the bugs play the stable releases.
Which version?
Elona hasn't been updated for a decade and Elona+ is a modding project. Besides the currently popular version in the English scene is Elona+ Custom GX.
Elin is on Steam, though. You're too late for early access signup though.
Which version?
Elona hasn't been updated for a decade and Elona+ is a modding project. Besides the currently popular version in the English scene is Elona+ Custom GX.
Elin is on Steam, though. You're too late for early access signup though.
I meant to link this. Guess I didn't copy the link hard enough
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2135150/Elin/
Also are the Mystery Dungeon games even roguelikes, as most of them have some sort of meta-progression in the form of being able to store weapons for later runs and are devoid of permadeath.
In PMD you don't even lose levels, only items, unlike in the Shiren the Wanderer series where you can lose both.
If meta-progression disqualifies most roguelites from being roguelikes why are Mystery Dungeon games immune to such criticism?
The same reason tome4 and tangledeep are usually immune, roguelike is a FEELING
They are true roguelikes. Optional permadeath just makes it less difficult but won't change the genre.
Spamming Quicksave in an FPS instead of having checkpoints does not change the fact that it's an FPS.
Neither are roguelikes defined by permadeath. It's a difficulty setting that's optional in many classic roguelikes.
The ridiculous thing is that indiehomosexuals define "roguelike" as basically permadeath + randomly generated, while actual real roguelikes often aren't even permadeath.
>If meta-progression disqualifies most roguelites from being roguelikes
Meta-progression is irrelevant in this conversation, people just jump onto unimportant distinctions they see.
ADOM has a case of metaprogression - literally no one says ADOM is not a roguelike.
ToME has metaprogression but generally gets a pass because it's generally about unlocks and not about power (which isn't exactly true). When people (incorrectly) argues against it being a roguelike they usually focus on permadeath not being mandatory.
Meta-progression just often leads to lazy design that's why it generally disliked outside of games that were fundamentally (and most importantly, properly) designed around it in the first place.
Playing ToME without perma death on can do some funny shit
The... Temporal Ranger? class, the one that spawns dogs, freaks the frick out if you die, all the existing dogs will remain spawned and you'll start spawning a fresh batch
I played with lives while learning the game then transitioned to permadeath and I have never managed to beat the game since : |
I am a shitter
ToME requires a very specific approach to risk mitigation and it's very oneshot-happy.
It's genuinely balanced around having lives.
You can consistently play it on Roguelike but it requires a lot of meta-knowledge.
tome damage can just get moronic at times >trying early release of the annihilator class >it had like 80 DR, near 100% evasion, gigantic flat damage shave, near maxed resistances, another 1/3rd chance of just not taking damage, 2 seperate hp bars, another mechanic for just not taking full damage, then another for evading it AND my race had damage resistance built in >Died in 1 hit on just 1 difficulty above normal to a generic horror enemy
Shits stupid
PMD's endgame dungeons strip you of all your items, money, and levels before you enter. even if one doesn't consider the entire game as a "true" roguelike, those dungeons meet the criteria.
Imo once you've played Angband itself (best QoL and overall design, most up to date) and Poschengband (terrible QoL and design, but by far the most actual fun) there's little reason to play anything else that labels itself a *band. They're all just more boring or less polished versions of those.
Sil/Sil-Q is the best variant in my view, but it does make some profound alterations to the Angband formula like it's own magic system, overhauled combat, removal of gold and stores and a classless and levelless character progression so it almost feels like a new game.
>rogue"""like""" >posts actual screenshot of fricking rogue
is doom a doom-like?
is diablo a diablo-like?
have a nice day.
anyway, like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lite.
Currently trying to get back into CDDA with zombie evolution off. Frick skeleton hulks. Also how long before I die of vitamin deficiency or obesity? I don't remember that shit being in the last version.
I avoid both of them for a few reasons.
1) None of them have been as good as Spelunky in 2013
2) Developers are now using the genre as an excuse to not have to design levels or balance gameplay
3) it's all so tiresome
Dungeon Crawler. I don't want to get caught up in a moronic debate about what it is when at the end of the day I just want to play a dungeon crawler. Whether that's in a figurative or literal dungeon, turn-based roleplaying or real-time action, I just want to dungeon crawl.
Played picrel a while ago and thought it was neat.
I'm not very familiar with the genre. Are there any games anons would recommend to get started with?
DCSS. 0.15 is the best version, newer versions are easier though so if you have no standards play that.
Caves of Qud if its on a steep sale, otherwise its not worth it.
Angband/Sil-Q both have good QoL and tiles, but the former is kind of boring and the latter is very linear in its approach.
Golden Krone Hotel. Similar dungeon branch system to DCSS, easier game.
Maybe DemonsRL if you want a more team focussed affair (its SMT, essentially, with the demon bribing and such) but there's only like 1 guy who's even good at that game so can't comment too much.
Elona/Tome4 (free on the devs site btw)/CDDA are not roguelikes, but people who like roguelikes tend to like them and they have similar control schemes and such to get used to.
this thread reminded me of a rougelike i used to play years ago. I can't remember shit about it now though, except it was a desktop game, had none chibi characters, and i think started on a greyish tileset.
I just want a fun game where repeat a near endless cycle of "kill thing, get loot. kill bigger thing, get better loot, so on and so on"
I'm about ready with my 20ish-th playthrough of borderlands 2
Diablo 3 was fun enough, never played 2, is it worth looking into? Or any other suggestions?
I actually like Rogue-likes so have a mild hate for lites just because they nearly all have idiot devs that can't tell the difference so finding a new game that is actually like Rogue has become near impossible now.
Why do people who insist on misusing the term roguelike, always act as if the people who actually care about real roguelikes are being the unreasonable or silly ones, when the ones who for no good reason are incorrectly using the genre name of a genre for games not even remotely similar to said genre?
It's so, so fricking easy to just call your games roguelites instead. So not doing it just makes you an butthole.
Because there is an even smaller, noisier subset of people who don't even like that term. Have you played Rogue? It's a fricking artifact. A real one. And some people don't like other games that are similar being compared to it.
All these autists trying to latch on to the "roguelike" label with games like BoI/FTL/etc are disgusting because the only reason they even started trying to call those games roguelikes is to earn hardcore gamer points. And by they, I mean games journalists who wanted to feel good for beating FTL on easy mode after 500 attempts but can't even get past Sokoban in Nethack.
i prefer likes to lites. i find them more consistently entertaining, i am much more likely to play them over the years than lites which seem to have a shorter tiredness time for me personally. i also find that i appreciate likes play like not other video game genre which lends them more appeal while i could find a variety of other games that play similar to particular roguelites because they are always a genre mash with some roguelike elements.
Depends on what sort of game I feel like playing. Both are pretty fricking great but it is VASTLY harder to construct a RogueLIKE that isn't shit compared to a RogueLITE that isn't shit. Hell I can't even think of 7 RogueLIKEs that are worth fricking playing.
if autists keep saying a game is"not a real roguelike" you know there's a chance it's worth playing.
Is Jupiter Hell close enough?
It's not a real roguelike
How? It's a roguelike
even the guys on /rlg/ accept it as one and play it
Yes it is and it's great.
Everything about it is traditional roguelike.
did it ever get diagonals? i remember that being a weird step back from doomrl when i last saw it but that was several years ago
No, you can't move diagonally in JH.
You can attack diagonally, though (and attack-move diagonally on a melee kill)
It's a big departure from DoomRL and its outstanding dodge system but JH is very well balanced around its movement, so after you play it a bit you won't feel like it's missing something.
JH is a great game, can't recommend it enough.
Also one of those games that just keep getting "final" updates. They teased a new class in the future when last month's major patch dropped.
I played it ~two years ago, and it was great and pretty much finished.
I decide to give it another spin last patch and realize all branches now have unique gimmicks, there's a boss on every planet, and overall a bunch of new shit was added.
It's amazing.
>a weird step back from doomrl
How I feel about JH in general.
Worse movement, can't destroy most of the map, less weapon variety, soulless upgrade system, less interesting areas, etc etc
Everything is either more or less the same as Doom RL (the skill trees), worse than Doom RL (all the above) or technically different but still aping Doom RL so much I'd rather just go play it (the demons + zombie human enemies)
All it has going over it is shotguns not being moronicly broken and spamming blind-fire into darkness after dropping a medpack not dumpstering everything
>less weapon variety
JH has more basic weapon types than DoomRL
>soulless upgrade system
JH doesn't have assemblies but the mod pack upgrades are much more interesting than in DoomRL
>less interesting areas
Not anymore
JH has planet themes, plenty of themed branches with unique quirks, better enemy variety, level events, stations, etc.
It's a very cool game and offers plenty of stuff DoomRL does not, without replacing it as a game.
If you only played it during it's initial EA release, you should try it out again. The game has changed massively and is in a great shape right now.
>basic weapon types
Who
Cares
I said less weapon variety, I did not 'less weapon variety IF you arbitarily limit that variety to basic weapons!'. DoomRL had a lot more fun, unique upgrades. WHich were completely different weapons.
>Mod pack good
Wrong lol
Kimchicrawl has old nemelex, Deathknight as a class, removed spells, etc etc. Shame that fork was abandoned.
>Who
>Cares
Everyone?
>I did not 'less weapon variety IF you arbitarily limit that variety to basic weapons!'
And that's not what I said.
DoomRL has literally less weapon variety.
Base weapon TYPES are the thing that makes weapons fundamentally different.
>DoomRL had a lot more fun, unique upgrades. WHich were completely different weapons.
No, not really, you don't know what you are talking about.
>Wrong lol
Again, you don't know what you are talking about.
Simply pumping stats is not as interesting as providing dynamic effects.
What DoomRL did with its assemblies JH does with its regular mods and AV gear. It's not one-to-one, of course, but for the most part it's there.
When did you last play JH? You are saying a lot of crap that is objectively false.
Okay bro calm down bro
Its okay that Jupiter Hell's upgrade system fricking sucks bro holy shit
>has nothing to say
I accept your concession
Looks a bit like Teleglitch
You can call it autism but it's a matter of clarity. I can't recommend Tales of Maj'eyal to someone who likes Risk of Rain because they're two totally different kinds of games despite being labeled as the same genre
Roguelike is as overused and ill-defined as RPG.
Except it isn't. It is only hardcore devs who have moms that won't let them that started abusing the berlin interpretation so they could call their twinstick shooters and platformers roguelikes that got normalgays using it for anything that has some random anything somewhere, maybe.
Like, but not necessarily Berlin interpretation. The biggest issue with many lites to me. Is the locking of content. What was so refreshing about roguelikes even 15 or so years ago was the no bullshit gaming. They're happy to slap you in the face with 30 races 20 classes and a dozen schools of magic. They're purely about the game from the start. No dangling carrots or meta progression.
You could just cheat and unlock everything from the start. Balatro even outright gives you the option to do that without needing to download a save.
Does Balatro really count as rogue anything? But yes. I do love that it's an option to just play the game.
Slice and Dice also let's you just get on with it. You can revert with the normal unlocks from it though. Just a warning "this is more complicated, not harder." All it has to be
Both. Both are good.
Play Jupiter Hell
It's on sale, too, or was
Roguelikes are so fricking boring, I don't know how anyone enjoys them. Roguelites on the other hand can be really fun if the gameplay is enjoyable.
Elaborate please
It's simple anon, roguelikes whole purpose is to die repeated until you manage to complete the game often not through skill but luck with RNG
Roguelites however can usually be won on the first playthrough, they're challenging but fair. You don't have to start completely over each time. Hence they're a refinement on the shitty roguelike genre.
Roguelites are so fricking boring, I don't know how anyone enjoys them. Roguelikes on the other hand can be really fun if the gameplay is enjoyable.
Kek, read your post thinking it made more sense in reverse only to then notice what you were responding to.
Not liking traditional roguelikes makes sense because there is something about turn-based tilesets that can seem a bit dull and not for everyone. Not liking roguelites means not liking literally every other genre of game. Saying "if the gameplay is enjoyable" also seems daft when roguelikes vary in gameplay far less.
NTA but for me the metaprogression a lot of lites do is the dealbreaker. It is unsatisfying to the extreme to fail forward with permanent upgrades.
Meanwhile the other side thinks playing the game without a consolation prize is a deal breaker. Which must mean they don't actually play games for the joy of gaming. They play to unlock shit and there just happens to be a game in the way
Case in point
You can win roguelikes anon. You can also play them again as a different class or whatever.
I like metaprogression that you have to actually earn. You get the best of both worlds - variety and replayability and you also have an obstacle to overcome so all that variety feels like you deserved it.
Variety and replayability in roguelikes just comes from your willingness to use it. Want to start simple? Be an orc warrior. Want to spice it up? Be something like a doppelganger trickster and copy other monsters or whatever the frick weird classes they put in.
I do understand that there's a degree of paralysis of choice to this. The games to some degree trust their players to find their own fun. Unlocks make it easy to go "oh dang, a new class? Got to try that now." They drive to to try more by trickling it in. At the cost if not letting you jump into the deep end at all.
I love looking at the hundreds of options from second one. But I do get why that's hard for some.
I'm not talking about choice paralysis. I'm talking about overcoming obstacles to earn a reward, which is the cornerstone of practically all fictional entertainment in existence.
I personally like metaprogression that actually requires you to achieve things for rewards. FTL needs you to actually win or succeed at quests or complete achievements to unlock new ships and layout. My favorite classical roguelike also has metaprogression but it as well requires you to actually do ahievements and be successful in order to climb through the metaprogression. No amount of suiciding against a wall for dozens of hours will help you actually become powerful, you need to know your shit to make it.
FTL doesn't even really have metaprogression, the unlocks aren't stronger or better, you don't suddenly just hit harder, the enemies and encounters aren't built around you just having higher stats unlocked from the metaprogression.
Yeah, you can build stronger synergies and combos with more unlocks (and its very easy to take advantage of choosing race/ship for a playstyle you like), I don't deny that, but its very different from games where u just get +damage +hp +resistance etc.
ftl feels like tutorialized metaprogression, doesn't want to overwhelm you with too many options and complicated ones so you need to play a little bit to unlock it all and it adds some fresh ways to play even after u have played for a little bit more than that, rather than actually expecting you to get stronger for having these unlocks.
My other game gives you tangible power in metaprogression but it's still good because you need to be actually competent to unlock all the meta powers because most of them are locked behind achievements, and many of thise achievements aren't exactly trivial, so I still consider it good. The cornerstone of what appeals to me is that you have to earn it rather than grind it.
Been enjoying lots of Jupiter Hell recently. Downloaded Elona and looking to get into that as well. Eagerly awaiting "Lost lands" for ToME.
Highly recommend Rift Wizard. Which plays more like a traditional roguelike. Ie turn based, grid mostly tactical. With a few tweaks which go towards the normal lite gameplay. Set arenas you must beat. Peeking into the next room to pick. No fog, full information at all times. Very much about making a broken build
RW2 just released as well.
Secondingnrift wizard, glad the game is getting more love. Already have like 30 hours in 2
What even is the difference between rift wizard 1 and 2? They seem like the same game
On a pure gameplay basis it basically is the same game, so if you liked 1 and just want more than go for it. If that doesnt appeal to you than avoid it.
That being said a lot of the games systems and mechanics have been changed up. New spells and a new magic type to play with. Spells also only get one upgrade now, with the upgrades being much more meaningfull and the generic "spells get more range/dmg/casts" has been moved to skills. That being said the dev hasnt gotten around to updating every spell yet so you still have spells ugrades like dominate that are unchanged and nowhere near as good. Level rewards are different. Instead of circles and shrines you get chests with equipment to choose from, with the equipment giving buffs to all your spells instead of just one. You can also get funny pets to help you.
Level genrationg logic is pretty different, although you probably wont notice this unless you played a frick ton of 1. Enemies can now spawn with modifiers too them that give different resistances and buffs.
Im sure theres a bunch of other stuff im forgetting
Is ~300 hours enough playtime? I even beat the game with only Magic Missile. Single spell challenge runs seem impossible in the new one though. Precisely because you can't turbo upgrade them and get basically no mana.
I have a feeling wolfer is still possible. There are so many skills that support and supplement it, and the items might make it even stronger than before. My very first run of 2 ended in a victory that abused the new toadblooded skill.
I have found a lot of "+1 summons" letting you get a ton of clay hounds. But in the late game they do tend to drop off imo.
Venom split, megavenom, collected agony and spider spawning go a long way towards keeping them strong. It just floods the entire map with spiderlings in no time at all. Wolfer in 1 was an absolute breeze with that skill setup, and with new skills like toadblood and scent of blood I imagine it's even easier. The biggest hurdle is probably going to be the boss right before Mordred, I think I almost died and had to use a stopwatch in the run I posted. The late game is definitely harder than it was in 1, but Mordred is still a pushover.
I keep getting killed on floor 12 to 14. Wtf are you supposed to do against the big guys except save ether daggers and flame burst them?
Bleh, game is too focused around knowing the best upgrade paths rather than working with what you get
>Loop Hero
>Deckbuilder
That's an idle game
Damn my favourite genres except point and clicks lol
First time I agree so much with something here.
the song makes it.
The frick is a dice builder?
Right and Down and Dice
Games where you do shit with dice. Such as Roll or Slice and Dice I imagine
>Games where you do shit with dice
That's every game with RNG.
These specifically involve actual dice as a mechanic. Changing faces, multipliers, rerolling and possibly synergies between dice. Of course RNG is "rolling dice" in some way. This just goes harder towards using dice as the game.
>If you're really gonna make a good game
>You'd better make one that you'd wanna play
Ironic. Because from the perspective of a game dev. Roguelikes and roguelites are for better or a somewhat egotistic genre.
Like. I like making roguelikes, because I as the dev, can actually enjoy them.
Making adventure games or whatever else is really unsatisfying as a game dev. As far as your own enjoyment of the game is concerned at least.
Making an adventure game or whatever, then I already know the entire game world. I know of all the secrets. I know of the locations of everything. There is nothing to discover. There is no surprise. There is nothing.
But when you make roguelikes and roguelites. Even if you might know of whatever secrets the game might have. And all the unlockables or whatever. Everything else is random and you can still get the genuine experience even as a developer with all the knowledge.
>from the perspective of a game dev.
if this is mentioned here,are you a game dev?
- I have a question.
What's wrong with computer card games?
nothing, it's a moronic list made by a terminally online contrarian
just play the games and stop listening to fricking game essays, e-celebs and literal whos
I think they're kinda lazy. You give the player minimax homework, essentially. The AI is going to play optimally and will win most of the time unless you TOO optimize your own gameplay. Assuming you play from the same deck, otherwise is ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY.
Isn't that just the regular card game experience but in a video game?
No because in the real world, when players are minimaxing and gambling, people don't naturally see that many 'moves' ahead. Especially with a traditional set of cards, there are just too many variables. Take Texas Hold Em between 3 players. We know 2 cards, we don't know 4, we bet on not knowing 46 cards. Then we learn 3 more cards, we bet with 43 other cards unknown to us. Then we learn 1 more card , bet not knowing 42 cards. Then we learn 1 more card, final round of betting on 41 unknown cards. Now we have to play. How many turns do you have to anticipate to play optimally?
Not many if you hash it.
Sorry muh math is off.
We know 2, don't know 50
Then we know 5, don't know 47
Then we know 6, dont' know 46
Then we know 7, (2 in your hand, 5 on the table) and don't know 45 cards.
So we are betting on a lot of unknown variables unless we hash the unknown values and create a minimax strategy off of that. That strategy is counting cards.
>That strategy is counting cards.
This is illegal btw.
No it's not. Don't believe casino propaganda.
I'll always not laugh at the fact that Crypt of the Necrodancer literally fulfills all requirements
yet it's a hack n' slash just because
explicitly adds an extra system to the game entirely based on rhythm that on some "classes" is absolutely necessary to use appropriately and move in time with the music or else incur fat penalties/die - it's too integral to the full experience of Necrodancer to just say "but everything else fits"
you can always take your time in Roguelites without being punished until you make your move
Necrodancer incentivizes keeping your beat going, meaning you have to butthump a wall/circle tiles/have drums/use a certain character
it's one of a kind though, there's no doubting that
It's just the term Roguelike
Rogulite isn't a term, it's a buzzword made up by scammers who poor together piss-poor RNG Progression games/gambling sims and want to convince morons they're actual games
That said, I 100% fully support these scammers. Why? Because if morons are stupid enouguh to get scammed, they deserve it
Fun fact, the top left is considered 'roguelites' and one of them, slay the spire, is considered one of the originators of the scam
>This term that pins a certain thing shouldn't exist because I said so
Why is Slay the Spire a scam?
>Rogulite isn't a term, it's a buzzword made up by scammers who poor together piss-poor RNG Progression games/gambling sims and want to convince morons they're actual games
No. Roguelite was a term that was coined to describe games that were inspired by roguelikes, but weren't.
Calling your non-roguelike, a roguelike, would be the scummy scam thing to do. Calling it a roguelite is being honest.
every single game in this image is a total banger
nobita and lies of p are good though
So what do you even play?
>wwwaaaaaaaah i want move games
b8
I like roguelikes and metroidvanias and souls games, but I agree with this. Nothing makes me lose interest in a promising game faster than discovering it's an isometric soulslike with roguelite progression and deck building.
>ruining
there is atleast 2 amazing games in each catgory in your pic
>Lazily editing an image that listed actual shitty practices that have ruined the industry to go "genres I don't like are... le bad!"
>Dicey Dungeons
>Loop Hero
mid as frick
You can change them for Monster Train and Across the Obelisk.
I honestly thought dicey dungeons was ok. Loop hero can eat a massive wiener though. The trend of idle games that require too much focus to actually idle in needs to die
Its why Grandma clicker will never be dethroned. Same with V Sav clones v V Sav (i know v sav itself is a ripoff). They just don't 'get' it.
If I need to constantly micromanage and idle game, its not about being idle
If I can dodge attacks in a v sav clone, its not about managing knockback/damage v incoming waves
They're fundamentally not what they're trying to ape and therefore trash
crypt of the necrodancer is really good though
Pretty much all the games in that image are good.
gay
>Yuck, gameplay in my games? I don't want that
roguelites are pure gameplay, dumb ass. everything but the gameplay is procedurally generated, because gameplay doesn't go stale.
Song is stupid and contradicts itsellf
>if you really want to make a good game
>you'd better make one that you'd want to play
I guarantee you 95% of roguelikes/lites are made because the dev wants to be able to play and enjoy their own game.
No one wants to solodev and get burn out on their own game because it's static content and they've spend triple digit hours debugging it all.
>I guarantee you 95% of roguelikes/lites are made because the dev wants to be able to play and enjoy their own game.
I call bullshit
95% of rogueshitters are made because the developer wants to waste as much of the player's time while creating as little actual content as possible (putting in as little effort as possible).
The only things they care about are
>padding engagement statistics
>getting players addicted to a predatory loop
If you're creating a game like this, you probably know better than to partake of similar poison yourself.
Roguelike/lites are popular among indies because they are a kind of game you can self-playtest. Don't need to get a hold of other people for a perspective on what the game is like for people who haven't made it (running the risk of getting bad input if their tastes happen to be shit) when you yourself are also in the dark about what the game is about to throw at you.
Also yes. They also get made because the people who make them also enjoy those kind of games. That's fricking obvious. That really was the songwriter's bias coming in there. homosexual doesn't enjoy roguelites himself so he's deluded himself into thinking no one else does.
Entirely correct.
>all of these homosexuals saying Shantae is good
you never played it.
Would you just look at this image full of games everyone hates
you forgot boomer shooters and games with the psx graphics aesthetic
>RNG padding
>RNG padding
>Backtracking, the genre
>Trial & Error
I say roguelike to piss off autists
the 4 horsemen of peak gameplay, stick to moviegames champ
accurate AND factual
only nu-Ganker would disagree
I’m about to buy Caves of Qud, it’s gonna be my first roguelike game, I hope it’s good.
Qud is weird. I've played tons of roguelikes and can't quite get into it.
It really is cool though. Highly recommend at least trying it.
Same. I got 1000s of hours in total on ADOM, Omega, Angband, UnReal World etc but Qud.. barely a few hours and I dropped it.
Redpill me on Qud
i like playing esper, you have a shitton of powers which include clones of yourself with the same powers, mind swapping, brainwashing anyone into an ally and an ability to refresh your powers
you can pick a trait that spawns an evil twin of you, with the exact same powers and inventory
and theres a billion ways to exploit all of the things above
I fricking love RogueLikes
The best roguelikes (Infra Arcana, Frozen Depths and Sil-Q) are free.
lite, i cant get into more likes without a tileset
>CDDA sets tiles as default in the new version
>Turn that shit off and kill Z's instead
It's just how it's supposed to look
Rogue's Tale and Jupiter Hell are the most visually palatable and comfortable to control roguelikes I've ever played. Gave them a look.
My favovirte trad roguelike is a literal who that nobody ever heard of.
Worst genre ever
>lol progression resets and the game never ends
The total antithesis of videogames
It’s gaming in its purest form.
>The total antithesis of videogames
Literally all videogames before save files
>Like
Procedurally Generated Rooms
Permadeath
Turn Based
>Lite
Procedurally Generated Rooms
Meta Progression
Real Time
That's it. The biggest difference is Meta Progression or Permadeath, and Real Time or Turn Based.
If your Rogue-ish game has Meta Progression or is in Real Time it is Rouge-lite.
If it has Permadeath and is in Real Time it's still a Rogue-lite.
If it has Permadeath (YOU START AGAIN FROM NOTHING, 0, A NEW 'FILE') AND is Turn Based you have a Roguelike.
If you are asking preference? Personally I like Roguelites. Meta progression make monkey brain happy. Permadeath makes monkey brain mad and sad. Le time sunk because the meta progression is your knowledge of the game which is less visible than number go up.
Roguelite just means genre hybrid. You could refer to Deus Ex as a rpg on the understanding its an rpg/shooter hybrid and no one would give a damn. Problem is roguelike fans are way more anal about this shit so taking a traditionally turn-based genre and making hybrids with real time ones managed to cause this big debate.
Meta progression is honestly a trivial thing to make a distinction over since you can just download a 100% save and it gets removed as a factor entirely.
>the two points made to distinct them are what you are trying to obfuscate by saying "it doesn't matter" (I accept your concession) or "just cheat, it's a singleplayer game anyway" (I accept your concession)
Zoomer, if you want to try and deconstruct something while being a fence sitter at least know what the arguments are and have points instead of just "I don't care, just cheat" as those are not points but drivel.
Frick off.
See this is what I mean. Completely anal.
It's not a question of how you stretch it. Deus Ex is considered an rpg/shooter hybrid by most people, no stretching required.
>I'd argue that most roguelites versus actual roguelikes, would be like this DotA versus Fire Emblem example
Both can be described to have RPG mechanics. The problem of course is insisting on a single genre description that is far too vague. People were fine with genre hybrids back in the day because it's pretty obvious that only ever following a single rigid genre when making a game stifles creativity.
Given that I've seen morons stretch the definition of puzzle game exactly that far. You can never be sure. Is it either of my other genres to you?
>People were fine with genre hybrids back in the day because it's pretty obvious that only ever following a single rigid genre when making a game stifles creativity.
That's not the issue though.
Ocarina of Time is not, and will never be an FPS. And describing Ocarina of Time as an FPS is more than silly.
So why are people calling action games and card games roguelikes, when they're not even turnbased RPGs with simulturns any more?
Because they're using the procedural generation and permadeath aspects of the games, as well as general rpg mechanics also associated with roguelikes (most roguelites have inventories and shops and stats/leveling). The same way deus ex is called an rpg/shooter because it does use mechanics associated with rpgs.
The real question is if you have a problem with the term that's been used, why haven't you provided an alternative? There's an obvious need for a term that can be used to describe this sort of thing. And roguelike was used because that is the genre that comes to mind when it comes to games using rpg mechanics with procedural generation and permadeath. Telling people not to use that term but not provide an alternative was never going to work as an argument.
We have. Roguelites. Which is also moronic, since most roguelikes have litte in common.
Best would be "Cardgame/Platformer/ARPG/whatever with roguelike elements".
>We have. Roguelites. Which is also moronic
Precisely, you'll complain anyway.
>since most roguelikes have litte in common.
I assume you meant roguelites there and again that's because you aren't acknowledging that these games are basically all genre hybrids,
>Best would be "Cardgame/Platformer/ARPG/whatever with roguelike elements"
Which is how a lot of these games describe themselves to begin with. Thing is most people could consider a game having elements of a certain genre to basically mean it's a hybrid of that genre.
>Precisely, you'll complain anyway.
Its moronic because the name is way too similar to the point that you have to enunciate your pronunciation.
Distinguishing by like/lite is fricking awful
>Precisely, you'll complain anyway.
It's a stupid term, but I'd rather have you use them than mislabel them roguelikes.
>again that's because you aren't acknowledging that these games are basically all genre hybrids,
What? No.
Because a platformer, an FPS, an RTS and an RPG play nothing alike. Calling them all roguelites is pointless, since it's not a good indication if somebody will enjoy the game.
>Which is how a lot of these games describe themselves to begin with.
They used to, before calling your game a roguelike was easy marketing.
>Thing is most people could consider a game having elements of a certain genre to basically mean it's a hybrid of that genre.
Most rogulites are 80-90% main genere + 10-20 % roguelike elements though
>What? No.
>Because a platformer, an FPS, an RTS and an RPG play nothing alike.
Neither do FPS/RPGs, RTS/RPGs or Platformer/RPGs, but they can all be described as RPGs because that's the nature of genre hybrids. Am I really having to explain this to you?
>since it's not a good indication if somebody will enjoy the game
Yes it is. People who like RPGs will often enjoy their genre being mixed with other genres. After all it's something they like mixed with something different. The prevalence of the roguelite as a genre is literally because people who like that sort of thing are attracted to other games using those mechanics, as acknowledged even by you:
>calling your game a roguelike was easy marketing.
>but they can all be described as RPGs because that's the nature of genre hybrids
Actually no.
The thing you are referring to is commonly called "RPG elements" or just "progression" nowadays.
When a game can be actually called an RPG in good faith, you'll see strong parallels among the games that fall under that genre compared to the games that don't.
Most people would immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between New Vegas (solo FPS RPG) and Baldur's Gate 3 (party-based isometric RPG)
From the pic related, you can see that people don't really call Hollow Knight an RPG just because there is progression in the game.
Roguelites, meanwhile, are not a real genre. They are a set of criteria. A given game being a Roguelite means that the game has a form of permadeath and a form of procedural content generation. That's it, and nothing else.
There is not a single game in existence that can be meaningfully described as just "roguelite". You can pick up any roguelite you know, including the ones erroneously named "roguelike" and you'll realize it's ALWAYS "roguelite" + SOMETHING.
That SOMETHING is the actual genre of the game, the detail it's a roguelite just means permadeath and procedural content generation were added to it.
Roguelikes, meanwhile, is a proper, very specific genre. And, ironically, not all roguelikes would pass as roguelites.
>Most people would immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between New Vegas (solo FPS RPG) and Baldur's Gate 3 (party-based isometric RPG)
And most people immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between Isaac (top down shooter roguelike/lite) and Balatro (card-based roguelike/lite). Including shops, stats, upgrades, consumables (both even have the same take on tarot cards), synergies and abilities that drastically effect how you go about playing from one run to the next. Alongside the obvious permadeath/procedural generated run stuff.
>you can see that people don't really call Hollow Knight an RPG just because there is progression in the game
Because metroidvania is a far more fitting term. Brings us back to the point that if there really was a big problem with the use of the term then you should have offered a better one.
>And most people immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between Isaac (top down shooter roguelike/lite) and Balatro (card-based roguelike/lite).
ya they roguelites should be called issaclikes
>And most people immediately understand that there are a lot of similarities between Isaac (top down shooter roguelike/lite) and Balatro (card-based roguelike/lite).
You are disingenuously stretching the definition of "similarities".
Resident Evil 4 also has shops, stats, upgrades, consumables, "synergies and abilities", including the ones that can carry over your runs. Does it a roguelite now?
The similarities you are listing happen due to the formulaic approach to game making. i.e. many games are deliberately ripping BoI off because it's by far the most successful one.
Rogue Legacy is the game to coin the "Rogue-LITE" term and it doesn't have BoI-style shops, pick-ups, abilities, or crazy synergies.
It's first and foremost a run-based platformer with a meta-progression system you work with between the runs.
It's undoubtedly a roguelite but it plays nothing like BoI or Slay the Spire even if you try to appeal to very questionable metrics such as
>there are shops and synergies
BoI and StS play very differently from one another as well. If you like one game you aren't guaranteed to like the other.
You might, as both games are very good, but that has nothing to do with their genres as they are very different.
But sure, let's say your definition of the genre is the
>shops and synergies
one
and let's disregard the Rogue Legacy because that's an uncomfortable example.
What about FTL? It does have shops, that much is true, but it doesn't have BoI-style synergies in it.
What about Into The Breach? It's also a roguelite in a sense. It doesn't have shops and the only synergies it has are the synergies between the units in your squad (and pilot's skills).
Noita does have shops and it does have synergies but the latter isn't really anything like the synergies in BoI. In BoI, the "synergy" is lucking upon upgrades that work well with each other. In Noita "synergy" is making a wand that destroys the screen. Different processes, different outcomes.
>Resident Evil 4 also has shops, stats, upgrades, consumables, "synergies and abilities", including the ones that can carry over your runs. Does it a roguelite now?
Well it definitely doesn't not have synergies/ability in the vein of isaac/balatro and more importantly isn't permadeath or procedurally generation so no. Dunno why you would say that.
You are identifying rpg-elements that stem from it being survival horror though. Both survivial horror and roguelikes basically being rpg sub-genres.
>The similarities you are listing happen due to the formulaic approach to game making. i.e. many games are deliberately ripping BoI off because it's by far the most successful one.
Great! You've acknowledged the important part. That these games do have things in common! Which warrants a term to describe these influences (that's what a genre IS). Now that term will either be roguelike/roguelite or something you would prefer? Because again, the problem is you're not providing an alternative that you approve of.
>BoI and StS play very differently from one another as well. If you like one game you aren't guaranteed to like the other.
This can be true of any two games. Even two of the same genre.
>and more importantly isn't permadeath or procedurally generation so no
Well yes, obviously. Because those are the only two mandatory criteria for a game being a roguelite, you figured it out, congrats.
>Both survivial horror and roguelikes basically being rpg sub-genres.
No, Resident Evil 4 is not an RPG nor is it a subgenre of RPG anon, stop that.
>Great! You've acknowledged the important part. That these games do have things in common!
And here you go being disingenuous again.
No, I address the things you were listing. You are saying that those are some massive genre-defining similarities (most of which happen to be in RE4 by the way).
>Which warrants a term to describe these influences (that's what a genre IS). Now that term will either be roguelike/roguelite or something you would prefer?
Sure, the problem is, you've completely disregarded my point of how plenty of roguelites DO NOT HAVE those arbitrary similarities between two specific games you have listed.
>This can be true of any two games. Even two of the same genre.
Yes and no.
It can be true to a degree but dismissing the statement as such is, yet again, very disingenuous. You yourself say
>that's what a genre IS
Well, given your criteria for a genre is having shops and synergies, I can understand why that might confuse you, but games in a given genre have to be fundamentally somewhat similar.
Not the surface-level crap like "it has consumables!", no.
Disco Elysium and Might & Magic VII play NOTHING the like.
They are very different games.
But both games are undoubtedly RPGs - they do fulfill the fantasy of living as another character (or characters in the case of M&M) and growing through the experience.
A given player might like one game but not the other because of how different the games are, but most people will be able to immediately recognize the common parallels and on average, if the person likes one of the two games they are much more likely to like the other one and vice versa.
>No, Resident Evil 4 is not an RPG nor is it a subgenre of RPG anon, stop that.
Inventory system, stat mechanics, shops, enemy loot...
> You are saying that those are some massive genre-defining similarities
They are elements of the genre. Which disprove the argument that there isn't similarities to be found between two games of this genre.
>Sure, the problem is, you've completely disregarded my point of how plenty of roguelites DO NOT HAVE those arbitrary similarities between two specific games you have listed.
Because genres should be flexible as to not stifle creativity.
>Inventory system, stat mechanics, shops, enemy loot...
And? That doesn't make a game RPG.
The things you listed don't even qualify as "RPG elements" presence of which even normalgays do not equate with RPGs, e.g. the Hollow Knight tags.
It's genuinely funny how unironic your stance on "shops and synergies" somehow defining a genre is.
I was lowkey just mocking you and trying to point out how weak your point was but you actually think like that, huh.
>They are elements of the genre. Which disprove the argument that there isn't similarities to be found between two games of this genre.
You are misunderstanding the argument, though.
There ARE similarities between two roguelites, they go as follows:
1) Permadeath
2) Procedural content generation
No one argues with that.
The "argument" is that just "roguelite" on its own is not a proper genre.
Because when you hear the game is "roguelite" you only know that it has permadeath and procedural content generation.
You don't know ANYTHING about how the game plays.
Hence why it's not a genre. It's a feature set.
The word itself is useful as it appeals to a rather broad category of people, so it's being used. Sometimes properly, sometimes erroneously as "roguelikes".
The problem is, "roguelike" is a proper genre. When you tell someone a given game is a "roguelike" (assuming you aren't just misusing the word), you are actually telling them a lot about the gameplay of the game.
>Because genres should be flexible as to not stifle creativity.
That's a great nothingburger, anon.
Creativity is indeed very stifled by the labels people put on things post factum.
Leonardo da Vinci was really stifled by having to draw in Renaissance style.
My favorite FPS is Civilization 5, btw. I worry I might stifle its creativity, though.
>And? That doesn't make a game RPG.
You're basically arguing that the only thing that defines RPGs is levelling
> e.g. the Hollow Knight tags.
Again because metroidvania is a far more fitting description, same reason people don't call RE rpgs because survival horror is more fitting.
>It's genuinely funny how unironic your stance on "shops and synergies" somehow defining a genre is.
I said it's elements that show up in the genre, you still seem to be struggling with the fact this shit is flexible and keep insisting on what "defines it".
>Sure, the problem is, you've completely disregarded my point of how plenty of roguelites DO NOT HAVE those arbitrary similarities between two specific games you have listed.
No the problem is you still haven't produced a term you're actually happy with. And you keep avoiding that topic.
>Because when you hear the game is "roguelite" you only know that it has permadeath and procedural content generation.
>You don't know ANYTHING about how the game plays.
That's true of literally any genre. There's a lot that can be different of two games of the same genre. You will always at best only have an idea of what to expect. Which funnily enough is true of roguelites as well.
>Creativity is indeed very stifled by the labels
If that's your insistence on how labels should work then why insist on them to begin with. And to that end, be upset by them being used "wrong"?
>You're basically arguing that the only thing that defines RPGs is levelling
No, and I have no idea where did you pull that from.
You, meanwhile, are arguing that "having shops" is something genre-defining, which is ridiculous.
>metroidvania is a far more fitting description
If you didn't notice, there is like a dozen of various "descriptions" listed there. The point is, "RPG" is not one of them.
>you still seem to be struggling with the fact this shit is flexible
No, you are struggling with figuring out what's a "genre-defining element" would be. Hint: "having shops" is not that.
>you still haven't produced a term
That's objectively incorrect and came out of nowhere.
I'm not struggling with anything and I have everything named properly.
The only thing I don't like is when people misuse the term "roguelike" because it has a very specific meaning.
>That's true of literally any genre.
This is factually incorrect, you are being delusional.
There is a major difference between "not knowing the specifics of a game" and "not knowing LITERALLY anything about its gameplay".
If the game is called an RPG (by adequate people, not by you, who thinks RE4 is an RPG), you have a rough idea what can that game be.
Of course, you don't know most of it, but you have some general outline.
"Roguelite" doesn't do that. Here we have you, an idiot who thinks "roguelite" implies BoI-like game design, but that's wrong and I gave you plenty of examples.
If you look at the "roguelite" tag and go into Cultist Simulator expecting BoI-like "shops and synergies" you're up for a surprise as those games' gameplays have virtually nothing in common.
Hence why "roguelite" is not a genre - it's a feature set.
There's nothing wrong with that, and I don't know why are you trying to pretend there is.
>why insist on them
Because genre names are meaningful only when used properly
>No, and I have no idea where did you pull that from.
I'm just trying to find some logic to what you consider an RPG . You can just say what you consider an rpg yourself but I think you already realise the problem with that.
>You, meanwhile, are arguing that "having shops" is something genre-defining
I literally said the fricking opposite to you:
>I said it's elements that show up in the genre, you still seem to be struggling with the fact this shit is flexible and keep insisting on what "defines it".
>f you didn't notice, there is like a dozen of various "descriptions" listed there. The point is, "RPG" is not one of them.
Because again, people posted more specifc genre-labels, and RPG kind of is there:
>One of the tags is "souls-like"
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Souls
>Dark Souls is a dark fantasy action role-playing game
>you still haven't produced a term
>That's objectively incorrect and came out of nowhere
"That you're happy with", you already said you aren't happy with "roguelite" (and you proceed to rant about it again in your post).
>If the game is called an RPG you have a rough idea what can that game be
So is that story-driven with a heavy focus on character dialogue and potentially little to no combat. Or something akin to diablo where there's a focus on dungeon-crawling and no characters dialogue at all?
>Because genre names are meaningful only when used properly
But the meaning is something you've just argued stifles creativity. Why want them to "work properly" then?
>You can just say what you consider an rpg yourself
RPG is a game the focuses on roleplay.
It implies creating or taking the role of meaningful characters you follow through the story, often decided or at least influenced by you, and you observe their progress and growth.
The so-called "RPG elements" are a very common metric of "progress" but you can make a game that qualifies as an RPG without having stats and level-ups.
Stalker would be an example of such a game.
There are departures from the genre that have their core roots in it but ultimately result in very different gameplay - one of those is Hack 'n' Slash, as it originated in RPGs that would disregard everything but combat.
Hence why Hack 'n' Slash RPGs are not RPGs proper.
>I literally said the fricking opposite to you:
No, you don't understand what you are saying.
The criteria you listed were a) stupid and b) wrong
You have literally listed "shops and synergies" without understanding how moronic and reductive that is.
And it was proven wrong with the first example where you immediately had to backpedal to the "permadeath and procedural content generation".
"having shops" CAN be a titled feature set very much like "roguelite" is, if enough people care about it. The truth of the matter is: no one does.
The things you are listing are elements, the content. You are incorrectly judging that
>"AHA, those two games have SHOPS, hence that genre name I heard MUST mean games that have it have shops!"
when that's is plainly wrong.
>and RPG kind of is there
No, it's not. Because if you actually open Dark Souls itself, you'll see that RPG is on the list. Very high on the list, actually.
>you already said you aren't happy with "roguelite"
No, I didn't?
I just stated the fact that "roguelite" is a feature set and not a genre name, that's it.
It's a factual statement, I don't "feel" either way about it.
>something akin to diablo
see above
>you've just argued stifles creativity
You did. I was being sarcastic.
>It implies creating or taking the role of meaningful characters you follow through the story, often decided or at least influenced by you, and you observe their progress and growth.
And I can think of many RPGs which funnily enough includes dark souls where the focus really is just dungeon crawling and not any of that.
>And it was proven wrong with the first example where you immediately had to backpedal to the "permadeath and procedural content generation".
No backpedalling, I literally acknowledged when I was talking about the two similarities what the core defining trait was:
>Alongside the obvious permadeath/procedural generated run stuff.
>Because if you actually open Dark Souls itself, you'll see that RPG is on the list. Very high on the list, actually.
...that's just agreeing with me that it being called "Souls-like" is basically calling it an RPG.
>You did
No I said it shouldn't stifle creativity. I didn't say it does. Mainly thanks to the fact that most people are happy to play fast and loose with genre labels so someone making a game of a certain genre isn't expected to follow every traditional facet of that genre.
>And I can think of many RPGs
*Hack & Slash RPGs
I knew you would say that despite me addressing it in advance because you don't really process the information you are being offered.
>...that's just agreeing with me that it being called "Souls-like" is basically calling it an RPG.
No, you are wrong again.
I am literally disagreeing with you, point for point.
Dark Souls IS considered to be an RPG by people.
People (as in "general public") are generally not very good in properly naming things, hence why we have the whole "roguelike vs roguelite" problem.
However it is telling when virtually no one thinks Hollow Knight is an RPG - that was the point. Not that Steam tags are some sort of accurate metric for those things.
"Souls-like" is there because people do think that HK is a Souls-like and while that's not exactly true, HK does borrow a couple of Souls-like elements, so that judgement is understandable.
>No I said it shouldn't stifle creativity. I didn't say it does.
And I attempted to point out how stupid the idea that people naming things after the fact can stifle creativity.
Sorry you didn't get that.
>Mainly thanks to the fact that...
...it's literally impossible and the whole statement is ass-backwards.
"Genres" exist to help people find more of what they like. People don't start developing games (or, more generally, producing art) by going
>"okay, I'm making %GENRENAME% thing, what's the list of mandatory criteria for that?
>"oh frick, it's supposed to have SHOPS?"
>"holy shit, and SYNERGIES too?"
>"shit, that really stifles my creativity..."
they just make whatever the frick they want and people just label the thing afterward.
Labeling things accurately just helps everyone.
I once again invite you to play Cultist Simulator and come back to me with your impressions of shops and synergies of that game.
>Hack & Slash RPGs
So still RPGs. And no. Not all RPGs with a focus on combat over characters/story are hack and slashes. That phrase tends to refer to RPGs where you have direct control of the character (i.e. you do the hack and slashing) . There are plenty of rpgs where you don't have direct control of the character that also focus on combat over characters/story.
>Dark Souls IS considered to be an RPG by people
>However it is telling when virtually no one thinks Hollow Knight is an RPG
They think it's like a game which they consider an RPG, so they consider it an RPG. For someone " literally disagreeing with you, point for point." you're completely refusing to address the point.
>they just make whatever the frick they want and people just label the thing afterward.
And because them making whatever the frick they want means things can't always easily be classified most people then see sense to play loose with the genre labels.
>So still RPGs
That was also addressed. You have failed a literacy check again.
>That phrase tends to refer to RPGs where you have direct control of the character (i.e. you do the hack and slashing)
That's not a part of the defined genre.
Icewind Dale is a hack 'n' slash game and it's party-based.
>They think it's like a game which they consider an RPG, so they consider it an RPG. For someone " literally disagreeing with you, point for point." you're completely refusing to address the point.
No, you are just being disingenuous yet again because you have no point.
People think that Dark Souls is an RPG - there is RPG in the community-defined tags for Dark Souls.
People think Hollow Knight is Souls-like but don't think it's an RPG - there's a tag for the former but not for the latter.
Dark Souls "usually" implying (hack 'n' slash) RPGs doesn't mean anything because all those examples will also have RPG tag on them. Even Sekiro that's very low on "RPG elements" has users marking it as an RPG.
It's both funny and sad how desperately you try to twist words around to pathetically try weaseling your way out when your moronic and objectively incorrect points get exposed for what they are.
>And because them making whatever the frick they want means things can't always easily be classified most people then see sense to play loose with the genre labels.
And?
Don't you see you are talking about nothing here, anon?
Yes, genres are rather vague approximations, no one argues against that.
But genres tend to DESCRIBE something, and the more niche a given genre is the more specific it becomes.
No one, absolutely no one, not a single person in the world benefits from genre names being misused.
No matter how "hard" is to "classify" shit, calling Civ 5 an FPS helps no one - and it shouldn't be done.
Roguelikes is a specific subgenre of Hack 'n' Slash RPGs. When you take take something that is not a roguelike and call it a roguelike - you are actively making things worse.
You mean when you said:
>There are departures from the genre that have their core roots in it but ultimately result in very different gameplay - one of those is Hack 'n' Slash, as it originated in RPGs that would disregard everything but combat.
>Hence why Hack 'n' Slash RPGs are not RPGs proper.
In which case you're compromising your argument that you're against genre names being used if you're fine with RPGs being used in the term "Hack 'n' Slash RPGs"
>Icewind Dale is a hack 'n' slash game and it's party-based.
Looking it up that's not its defined genre. Even going by the steam tag argument.
>People think Hollow Knight is like a game they consider an RPG but don't think it's an RPG
At this point we're just acknowledging that roguelikes don't have to follow rogue exactly because apparently being like a game doesn't require even being the same genre the original was.
>Yes, genres are rather vague approximations, no one argues against that.
Except people who have this big hang up on the term roguelike being used loosely.
>if you're fine with RPGs being used in the term "Hack 'n' Slash RPGs"
I'm not "fine" with it. It's just the fact of life.
When you are talking about RPGs with normal people (i.e. not with you), there is always a clarification if the conversation about Hack 'n' Slash RPGs (i.e. Diablo-likes and such) or RPG proper, because the overlap between the player bases is rather small.
>Looking it up that's not its defined genre.
Because you don't know what genres are.
Icewind Dale is the Hack 'n' Slash in its core definition - i.e. an RPG, D&D in this case, that primarily focuses on combat. If you try googling "Icewind Dale" and "hack 'n' slash" together you'll see people mentioning that a lot.
But it's a very different formula compared to Diablo-likes so general audience isn't aware of those distinctions.
>that roguelikes don't have to follow rogue exactly
Yes, I agree with that.
>because apparently being like a game doesn't require even being the same genre the original was
This is a dumb and disingenuous point you make, because that's very explicitly not what I said, but I'll let it slide because I agree with the aforementioned conclusion and it's better to move on.
>Except people who have this big hang up on the term roguelike being used loosely.
It's not being used "loosely" it's being misused.
Here's an analogy.
At some points all FPS games were called Doom-clones. Because that's what they essentially were.
The gameplay of those "clones" become more and more varied over time, up to the point where it barely resembled Doom save for the first-person view.
Did people decide to continue calling them Doom-clones, when they played nothing like? No. They came up with a new, broader name - FPS.
You know it's first-person and you know you shoot stuff, that's it. You need more? Elaborate on that separately.
Calling something like FTL a "roguelike" is akin to calling Portal a Doom-clone, when some would argue it doesn't even qualify as an FPS.
>I'm not "fine" with it. It's just the fact of life.
So why isn't the usage of roguelikes also just a fact of life?
>Icewind Dale is the Hack 'n' Slash in its core definition
Which weirdly isn't actually generally regarded genre and requires specifically googling the term to find it being referred to as that.
>Did people decide to continue calling them Doom-clones, when they played nothing like? No. They came up with a new, broader name - FPS.
This is bringing us back to the point that an alternative term isn't being provided. If you wanted a term that separates the association with rogue then why not make one?
>So why isn't the usage of roguelikes also just a fact of life?
It is but that doesn't mean I like it.
And people, including me, being vocal and annoying about it is the reason we have things like "Action Roguelikes", "Roguelites", and "Traditional Roguelikes" which makes looking up games by genre a bit easier.
If everyone was silent, everything would've been just "Roguelikes" and everyone who played the actual games of the genre would've been shit out of luck.
It's not just Roguelikes, by the way.
The last shump Steam sale had like 5% of real shmups and 95% of vampire Survivors clones because morons keep tagging them as "Bullet Hell" which is a specific subgenre of Shoot 'em ups (with most well-known games being Touhou)
Imagine the joy of shmupgays seeing that.
>Which weirdly isn't actually generally regarded genre
Normalgays mostly use "action RPG" (ARPG) instead of "Hack 'n' Slash" and they mostly use it to mean "Diablo-like".
But that's a very broad term and it's not very useful when trying to be specific.
Because, say, Dragon's Dogma or Dark Souls are definitely Action RPGs (Hack 'n' Slashes, really) but not Diablo-likes.
>This is bringing us back to the point that an alternative term isn't being provided.
But it is. Roguelite does cover all those games.
And some devs and people do use it.
The problem is that most don't.
It not being a proper genre is not a problem, because if you look at the earlier examples - Spelunky, BoI, FTL, etc. none of them describe itself as "roguelike" period.
It's always
>"something-something with roguelike elements"
which is perfectly fine btw
>"simulation roguelike-like"
>"roguelike platformer" with "roguelike" in quotes
That specific usage never was a genre of its own - it always referred to a feature set.
Which "roguelite" is.
IMO people feel insecure about the name - how can it be "lite" when they are so hardcore?
Should've called it "rogueheavy" or "roguecool" instead.
>But it is. Roguelite does cover all those games.
But that's still associating it with rogue and not establishing it as its own thing. See the doom clone example. And as evident, roguelike purists still complain about the term anyway. Even you feel the need to talk about how its not an actual genre, but a "feature set" (aren't all genres essentially a set of features)?
Incidentally not sure how "roguelike elements" helps with your problem, it still means the game going to spring up in searches for that term.
>But that's still associating it with rogue and not establishing it as its own thing.
You can't really expect the devs and publishers to lose on marketing.
Yeah, it'd be even better if it was called whatever instead but "Rogue" is a cool marketing buzzword and you can't just expect people to drop it for no reason.
Eventually it might go full circle and people grow tired of "roguelike" everything and then another buzzword will be coined.
>And as evident, roguelike purists still complain about the term anyway
Mostly about the lack of use. Roguelike purists tend not to care about roguelites. They don't like that they can't look up new roguelikes anymore without having to filter through hundreds of clearly not-roguelikes.
>Incidentally not sure how "roguelike elements" helps with your problem, it still means the game going to spring up in searches for that term.
1) It's proper terminology. The game itself is not trying to present itself as something it isn't.
2) Things like that iron themselves out over time. Similar to how you don get every game with "RPG elements" (which is like every other game nowadays) when you search for RPGs.
3) Under a tag system that would imply a separate tag
The use of proper terminology being the main reason, honestly.
I have more respect for people who don't say their not-a-roguelike IS one.
They can use whatever term they want otherwise.
That holds true for all genres - just don't claim you are something you aren't and everyone will be happy.
If the genre name wasn't appropriated by morons, we could've had some nice terminology for further narrowing shit down within the genre.
I'd love to be able to use "Action Roguelike" for games like DoomRL, JH, and maybe ToME to separate them from "Traditional Roguelike" games such as ADOM, NetHack, and Angband.
Alas, Jupiter Hell is a "Traditional Roguelike" now and that's the best compromise I can ask for, even when it's, strictly speaking, not a very traditional roguelike.
>Mostly about the lack of use.
No they get anal about the term being used as well. See
Those aren't roguelike purists.
Those are morons who think Berlin Interpretation is anything but worthless shit.
They miss the important distinctions
>the unique turn structure (simultaneous turns)
>being a Hack 'n' Slash subgenre
and focus on pointless crap
>b-but what's the camera?
>b-but muh permadeath
>Identification minigame is MANDATORY
>YOU DON'T GET IT, IN A ROGUELIKE YOU HAVE TO FIRST GO DOWN AND THEN GO UP REEEEEEEEEEEE
>the grid must be SQUARE. Death to all hexgridgays!
and so on
Disregard them and move on.
Also, that specific picture is a meme, as it just says "nothing is Rogue" which is true, aside from Rogue itself, obviously.
And I can very well continue from
What about Cultist Simulator?
What about Darkest Dungeon?
What about Don't Starve?
What about Sunless Sea?
What about Against the Storm?
You are arguing from the standpoint of not having enough experience.
Yes, there are many roguelites that borrow ideas from BoI because that's both a well-designed and a very successful game, but that's not what "roguelite" means and that doesn't apply to all roguelites.
>And roguelike was used because that is the genre that comes to mind when it comes to games using rpg mechanics with procedural generation and permadeath.
But roguelikes are RPGs. And turnbased RPGs with simulturns at that. It's kind of ridiculous that people reduce it down to nothing but procedural generation and permadeath.
Like. What if people reduced Point & Click Adventure games to how you point and click on stuff in them. And then started calling anything from RTSs to FPSs, to card games or stuff like minesweeper. Point & Click Adventure games.
It'd be ridiculous. Especially when those genres don't actually have anything in common beyond how you click on stuff.
>People were fine with genre hybrids back in the day because it's pretty obvious that only ever following a single rigid genre when making a game stifles creativity.
Nobody is pressing for roguelites for stop being made. People just want lables to mean something and not being slapped onto everything as a marketing gag.
>Deus Ex is a tactics RPG because you can be tactical and it has RPG elements
>Deus Ex is a puzzle game because it has puzzles
It all depends on how far you stretch it. And most lites are far enough removed from the likes that they basically should not be allowed to count.
t. like enjoyer
>so taking a traditionally turn-based genre and making hybrids with real time ones managed to cause this big debate
Isn't that kind of understandable though? It does make for a foundational difference. Not all differences are equal.
But I mean. Take Fire Emblem for instance. Very typical, turnbased, gridbased Strategy RPG.
Now could you say that something like Unicorn Overlord is the same genre as Fire Emblem? Some might take issue at that. Univorn Overlord's map movement is after all, RTwP instead of being turnbased across a grid. But other than that it meets all the genre conventions. So even if it might spark some debate, but a lot of the time people just let such a claim fly.
But let's deviate further. Is DotA and Fire Emblem the same genre?
And I and most others would argue absolutely not. But why?
Genuinely. I'd argue that most roguelites versus actual roguelikes, would be like this DotA versus Fire Emblem example. And arguing that they are actually the same in spite of their many fundamental differences. Is frankly, ridiculous.
With all due respect.
Using your example comparison, probably the best corrolary is the "arcade games" genre.
Just off that mention you probably have a few ideas in your head already. But if you compare the kinds of games you see in an arcade you realize that they play almost nothing like one another
>fighting games
>beat em ups
>rail shooters
>shmups
>run and guns
>single screen platformers
>maze games
>endless puzzle games
>racing games
>rhythm games
Then you have to take a moment to think of what actually connects them aside from physical location: they're all pay to play, on a run by run basis, with some allowing you to pump credits to continue from a game over, which lends itself to 1cc and score attack play, and others allowing endless play as long as you arent defeated.
"Roguelite" is the new "arcade game"
The name is inaccurate but people all understand what is actually meant by it
moron
Rouguelike = no meta progression
Rouguelite = meta progression
That's it
No. That's moronic. And some bullshit post-hoc attempt at explaining the genres. That was popularized by a youtuber that genuinely did not know what roguelikes were and had no experience with roguelikes beyond being a fan of roguelites and then learning that roguelikes were apparently a thing.
So ADOM is roguelite, gotcha.
Yes obviously the only difference between a game like Nethack or DCSS and a game like BoI or Nuclear Throne is the meta progression, totally identical genres otherwise
This is factually wrong. A roguelike has to actually be like rogue gameplay wise. Roguelite is so nebulous it could practically be anything.
Roguelikes are a genre.
Roguelites are a design approach.
The left side column is not like the right side column.
You put Pokémon Rescue team in this but you don't put my boy Chocobos Dungeon 2?
nobody cares about FF slop
>You put Pokémon Rescue team in this but you don't put my boy Chocobos Dungeon 2?
I would have. Almost did. But I wanted 10 rows in particular. Some cuts had to be made.
>left side
>third game
SAUCE
Elona.
What's the fifth game from the left row?
That's Rift Wizard.
What's the fourth and fifth game down on the left side?
What does Dungeons of Dredmor count as?
I am so disappointed that it looks terrible at any resolution above 1080p.
It's a real roguelike which just happens to have nice graphics. Good game, never won in it
>best playthrough
>floor 9? or 8
>fire an eldritch squid tentacle into a monster zoo
>accidentally click the floor of the room or whatever the movement thing is
>character runs into the middle of the room in a massive conglomeration of monsters and fricking gets torn limb from limb
whoops
I enjoy run-based games for having high replay value and having lots of options to having a successful run.
On some days I desire grid-based simulturn-based games, on other days I just want to shuffle a deck of cards, on others I just want some arcadey twinstick action. By these metrics I consider them to use the same game structure but ultimately differ in their moment to moment gamePLAY which is what really is what defines a genre.
The name of the game structure being conflate with genre is moronic though. The Berlin Interpretation was a mistake and we are left in this hell of snooty pedants that think they're better than everyone else and uninformed masses that use the convenient term because its "close enough" and is colloquially understood to the point that wrong terminology has become correct by reshaping the definition to the chagrin of the previously mentioned autismos
Roguelikes are awesome. Roguelites like balatro can be good but the twinstick ones like gungeon are dogshit with time being better spent on a good shmup instead. If you would rather play something like tiny rogues or gungeon over Dodonpachi, Mushihimesama or Ketsui you should be euthanized.
How is Against the Storm? I heard it’s a roguelike, how is it possible to make a roguelike city builder?
It is basically just a series of successive city building mini-scenarios where you unlock new stuff to build and have various different goals.
Pretty good summarization of the game I've read is that it is a city builder for people who like the idea of city builders but not city builder games.
You get a "run" where you build several cities in several different locations, what you find in these locations is somewhat random, with random modifiers and you unlock buildings and perks by picking out of random sets. It also has metaprogression.
it's a fine game and technically roguelite but each run feels quite similar to the last
>how is it possible to make a roguelike city builder?
make a city builder with a lose condition, then slap on "roguelike" in the description.
its that easy folks!
For me, it is Armoured Commander II with full realism settings.
Really underrated both as a roguelike and as a WW2 tank autism game. Pussies can make it braindead easy too by toning down realism and picking overpowered tanks for the campaign if they want.
Don't worry anon.I still die in KV series tanks.
They're both fun for about 20 minutes but then get old
Lites for me, I really like meta progression systems
Both can be fun.
Absolutely. Which one do you prefer in general though?
Roguelikes.
I'll clear up the confusion
>roguelike
a game that is literally nothing like rogue in any way whatsoever. Twin stick shooter, fps, racing game, sims 4, CoD, Halo, Summertime Saga
>roguelite
a game that is nothing like the games called ''roguelikes'' and maybe there is some kind of progression system where you unlock things as you play
this is the moronic steam forums definition
a roguelite is what you've called a roguelike
a roguelike is a game that adheres to the berlin interpretation of the word (adventurer who moves through a grid-based world one tick at a time)
>shit art
>you can do literally anything
>no art debt to stifle game design decisions
>random 2AM patch (adds 400 weapons)
>pasable art
>extremely limited gameplay
>art debt means you get maybe 4 things to do maximum
>needs DLC to pay off art debt (adds one more class)
Idk why roguelike autists get so uppity about this shit nobody fricking cares lmao
If Diablo was released today, it would be called action-roguelite.
whichever one noita is
i dont get the appeal. whats the fun of permadeath and losing all your progress? video games are about progression.
Stakes are real and YASD stories are always fun
>encounter a medusa without a mirror shield
>die
>know to bring a mirror shield next time
That's quite literally making progression.
Endless replay value through high stakes gambling. The games are never too long so it's highly addicting to do "just one more quick run."
They're pure knowledge games. Exploratory in mechanics sense. Your knowledge about the game is the progression.
It makes beating one all the more satisfying. There is progression in a roguelike but its not your shiny upgraded gear or how many levels you increased - it's your growing knowledge of the game and its mechanics. With this new knowledge, you can normally do better in subsequent runs.
they are equal and opposite to skill based games.
something about instantly losing hours of progress via getting shit checked by run ending bullshit (liches) tickles the pickle of autists
you unlock stuff as you play, new areas, new weapons, new mechanics that then allow you to continue further on the next run so there is still progression, but not just in a straight line
That’s boring, why should I replay levels I already passed if I want to reach new areas? Imagine going back to the tutorial everytime you die to a boss in Elden Ring, it wouldn’t be a fun game anymore right?
elden ring isnt balanced around it
what if you went to tutorial and you got a random set of weapons and armor that you then have to scale using other things? you would have to limit the wide open space to be fixed small locations which would make elden ring into a boss rush type of game instead where you get random items and have to pick and choose what to use in order to progress
that might be fun
It depends on the game. If the first area is a slogfest it makes the game really boring, like Enter the Gungeon and Spelunky 2 for me.
>Games are about progression
This. It's the reason I have 5 idle games at all tiems.
Favorite ToME classes?
For me it's Temporal Warden, Oozemaner and Brawler.
Wyrmic and Temporal Warden for me. I've also had one surprisingly fun defensemaxx game as Bulwark but it didn't carry until the end.
Arcane Blade. Always.
Trying to get an Insane Roguelike victory on one when the best I have ever done before was Nightmare Adventure.
probably doomed or necromancer
>why yes I do like to walk into a room and everything just instantly explodes, even on insane
-Esque.
>Elona, Caves of Qud, Dwarf Fortress, Cataclysm, IVAN
recommend me another game
I liked elona the most
One Way Heroics+
I played this for a few hours back when Ganker first started spamming it. It was the most mediocre thing I've ever played, don't understand why it's still talked about.
Did you manage to save the world?
Beyond the easy mode tutorial that is.
the music is godo
It's cool.
UnReal World
ADOM
It's really great if you like the sandbox style of games like CDDA, if you're the kind of person who prefers ascension style games then it's pretty bad
Seconding ADOM.
adom is utter dogshit, almost as bad as tome4, do not reply to me ever again
Why though?`
It's one of the most developed roguelikes out there.
a polished turd is still a turd Black person
So that means every other roguelike is an even bigger turd?
wat
any games like these? didnt like ADOM and found unreal world to be boring as frick
really like long roguelikes where you can spend multiple days in a single "run"
both are fun.
Is Caves of Qud the best in the genre?
IMO it would be Infra Arcana, free lovecraft inspired roguelike where you infiltrate a cult complex. It does stealth and light as a mechanic really well.
Why do you hate CoQ?
immortal troony furry oc
Transfolk lives matter!
For me?
FrogComPosBand
tell me more about frogcompostband
It is Angband but with an overworld and absurd content bloatmaxx.
sounds like absolute kino
This. Its also considerably out of date, so while it has tiles, they're so ugly and small they're very hard to try to parse. (Angband itself has fairly nice tiles now, as the only *band to have any notable updates in the last like 10 years)
Frog is noted for its fun classes and races, with basically every other roguelike in existence after Frog having anything it tries to do done in frog earlier; Frog has item crafting, Frog has anti-summoning mechanics, Frog has magical sword buffs, etc etc
Its good fun to play around in... until around level 30. Which comes fairly fast. There's a clear progression of dungeons to take, the encounters are mostly fairly fair and the dungeons aren't too much of a pain to navigate.
Problem is once you get to level 30 exp almost immediately becomes so pathetic the 'meta' is to go fight end-game enemies to level at a reasonable rate, the dungeons become incrediby, needlessly convulted, to the point it hurts to explore them (like physically hurts, I had to stop playing Frog for real because it was hurting my hands to play) and you start needing to stack 5+ of a dozen resistances to not be 1 shot by every other enemy, then pop a dozen teleports to try and land somewhere safe to heal.
It has the biggest disparity in quality between early and late game I've ever seen.
I'd rec trying it to about level 30 though
SilQ has nice tiles these days I have the popular opinion of preferring it to original Angband anyways, it suffers considerably less from the tedium issues the original has always had. Also I really like it's classless and levelless character progression and build variety.
should i be playing sil-q over sil?
Sil-Q is a fork of Sil that has further developed it. I think it is better, it especially overhauled skills to make all of them viable in at least some kind of builds.
If you try it, choose noldor elf as your first character. Sindar, dwarves and especially humans are basically higher difficulties.
is vanilla sil perfectly playable or is it kinda bullshit?
You will probably enjoy it just fine. None of it's issues are ruinous. Release not from Sil-Q's official release gives the basic gist of changes.
I have an issue with a lot of Roguelites because they end up effectively just requiring you die and upgrade between every floor to be strong enough to progress; so it ends up freling less like a Rogue, and more like a standard stage-based game where you just have to replay every prior stage whenever you reach a new one.
>shit or slop
Neither
Are we excited to Elin?
didnt it already come out?
Late 2024.
I am!
Though honestly I know next to nothing about the game. Maybe it won't end up being for me. But it might be. I am very excited for it.
I choose to trust the dev.
i wanted to check that elona general those guys have on jp a few days ago but apparently its dead as frick
>game is called a roguelike
>it's nothing like rogue at all
why are indie devs like this?
both are bad and unfun
Why does no one like The Binding of Isaac here?
Ken is gonna give roguelike new meaning with this gem
Roguelite isnt real
Its all roguelikes
ADOM was the shit
>ADOM
uhh it has mixed reviews on steam…
I think people are still butthurt about Ultimate ADOM not the original.
Ultimate ADOM was a fricking scam.
Are Noita, Dead Cells, Crypt of the Necrodancer, Enter the Gungeon and Into the Breach any good?
Yes but I think enter the gungeon gets boring compared to other twinstick games like NT.
Use your own judgement
What’s NT?
Nuclear Throne
>Noita
finnshit reddit game
>Dead Cells
absolute garbage platformer using roguelite as padding
>Crypt of the Necrodancer
god tier, you don't even need to like rhythm games after they made bard mode for everyone
>Enter the Gungeon
mid twinstick shooter with reddit humour
>Into the Breach
beyond overhyped shitty game
Into the breach is mildly fun for one run, but it has zero replay value
Overall massive disappointment following FTL
yes
Noita is great if you like fricking around.
Hard agree on Dead Cells, I have no idea why some people praise it so hard, it's a terrible game made worse by years of stapled on updates that just added loads of bloat that ends up contradicting so many core mechanics you have to wonder whether the game passed through six different teams or the devs are just schizos off their meds
>Noita is great if you like fricking around.
it could have been great if you didn't need to read 100 wiki pages and watch 10 youtube tutorials to even have an idea what to do
and after that it is still a cheese fest where the hardest cheeser wins
>the only game anon praises is the worst of the bunch
>god tier
>shit
The duality of man.
Well the dude calls two good games reddit and then praises the most reddit one as god tier.
Classic tourist behaviour.
Necrodancer is shit, Gungeon is mid, rest is good.
Noita is easily the best game on there but you have to have good taste + not be shit at video games to enjoy it.
Crypt of the necrodance is very ok, but i find it pretty disappointing. It does NOTHING with the rythm mechanic, theres literally 1 (ONE) time where the beat isnt just varying speeds of 4/4 and its for a single early game boss. So what you end up getting is a fairly shallow and short dungeon crawler but you have to move every half a second.
Enter the gungeon is fine, its feels like discount isaac. Its very easy to get completely overpowered with weapon synergies, but when you dont the game is a slog with bullet sponge enemies. Also doge rolling has no place in a game like this, especially one with no cooldown, drawbacks, or any real downsides.
I thought into the breach was alright. Everyone shitting on it is just upset its a puzzle game, didnt expect it to be a puzzle game, and didnt want to play a puzzle game. Its a puzzle game btw, in case you didnt know.
Never played dead cells
>Its a puzzle game btw, in case you didnt know.
well maybe they shouldn't have made a shitty puzzle game larping as a tactics then
>Everyone shitting on it is just upset its a puzzle game, didnt expect it to be a puzzle game, and didnt want to play a puzzle game.
if it was good nobody would be shitting on it shill
go back to /indie/
The only complaint ls i hear about it are related to it being a puzzle game, just like the post i replied to. I also said it was just ok, sorry if thats somehow shilling to you
Name one game people aren't shitting on.
>if it was good nobody would be shitting on it
You are on a board full of teenagers dedicated to shitting on things and calling people shills for no other reason than trying to fit into a culture they don't belong to
ItB is a terrible puzzle game though. The puzzles are all randomly generated and therefore are terrible at producing epiphanies or exploring interesting ideas. The character building doesn't really fit into the puzzles except to make future puzzles easier in particular ways. If it were just a puzzle game it would be utter trash.
What it actually is is a sequence of chess tactics, which you preemptively modify by character building.
I can just download lichess or soemthing on my phone if I wanted chess tactics
>What it actually is is a sequence of chess tactics
How is that not puzzles?
They are puzzles, but they're a very boring form of puzzle. Good puzzle games use puzzles to explore the possibilities of the rules, chess tactics are basically just random chess positions where there is a single winning move
There isn't any designer intent to the randomly generated tactics puzzles of ItB.
If theywere less puzzle-y and more strategic then it would be a decent member of the tactics genre. But as it is it's basically a random chess puzzle generator
Fair enough. I agree with the rest of your posts btw i wouldnt call the game great or anything. Its a far cry from baba is you and stevens sauage roll
Play every single game this fricking imbecile idiot
said it's bad, and ignore necrodancer
Why would you ignore Necrodancer? It's pretty fricking good.
I'll bite
>Noita
It'll give you the closest experience to a traditional Roguelike out of all of the above. The formatting is difference since it's a real-time physics-based platformer, but it has the spirit of dungeon crawling baked into it. It'll probably be a hit-or-miss title if you ever try it. Non-players like to call it a wiki game, but you don't need to refer to any guides for the base game-- just the autistic side content.
>Dead Cells
It's a nice casual game, but doesn't play out like a dungeon crawler at all. There's not really much else I can say about it, it's a nice game.
>Crypt of the Necrodancer
Another good casual game. It's the inverse of Noita, where it more closely follows the formatting of a traditional roguelike while feeling nothing like one. I would recommend it on the merit of being fun, as well as having more widespread appeal than Noita.
>Enter the Gungeon
It plays at a snail's pace and had the misfortune of being juxtaposed against Nuclear Throne, which plays faster and is generally more fun. One's a shooter that wants to be a dungeon crawler and one's a shooter that wants to be an arcade game, and the format lends to the latter more than it does the former. It is an extremely mediocre game that you might like if you play it, but I'll be damned if I can think of any memorable moments in the game. One thing I will say that it has over something like Nuclear Throne, is polish. It could be a much better game if it were not shackled by its inherently slow gameplay.
>Into the Breach
Never tried it. It's not my cup of tea.
Noita would be fine if it wasn't a fricking slog every fricking run starts with 25+ minutes of nothing but slowly waddling around, then after you go thru all the cave in the hopes of finding a tp bolt and a black hole you must spend the next 2 hours traversing parallel worlds eliminating as many mechanics from the game as you can since it's so well balanced.
Just to die at the 9th hour of the rour to polymorph
Noita:
Boring. HP ups are hidden in walls, getting to them is tedious, people compensate for this via exploits to have like 10 billion hp v enemies who do < 1% of that in damage. Takes too long for you to get the tools needed to make good wands and it mostly just boils down to slotting in a chainsaw.
>Deadcells
Meh. Impressive variety in attacks, but randomization so poor it may as well not exist. Loses my interest a few areas in when half if not all enemies start just teleporting directly onto you and it just turns into a dps check game.
>Crypt
Suck game, rhythm shit sucks
>Gungeon
Fricking awful. Worst game in this list. It has synergies; but so specific you'll likely never see any. It has a lot of guns; 99% of which aren't worth using because ammo is so limited. It has randomization; so poor its just the same shit every time.
>Breach
Got bored and played FTL again
This but the opposite.
Listen to the guy who gave actual reason and not the sapient penis who just comes in to say
>Lol I am a contrarian, like the games because I said so, no I won't say why XD
roguelikes are fricking boring
roguelite may work if devs are competent (most of them are not and use roguelite to pad their shit game)
I hate this game and I hate how long it took me to realize how bad of a game this is.
Gungeon has soured my taste for all roguelites.
For me, it's IVAN
Ok, so I have decided to get these games as an introduction to roguelikes:
Tales of Maj’Eyal
Ancient Domains of Mystery
Cogmind
Rift Wizard (not sure whether to get this or the second game)
Noita
Caves of Qud
Against the Storm
Anything else I should add?
against the storm, noita and rift wizard are not roguelikes
get ToME
>Rift Wizard (not sure whether to get this or the second game)
Id say get the first one rn. The second one is still in beta and definitely needs a lot more time in the oven. The first one also has challenges and achievements to keep you occupied for a bit once you get tired of the normal mode. If you like it enough then id say get 2 in a year or so.
Noita and Against the Storm aren't Roguelikes.
Cogmind is pretty different to standard RL conventions when it comes to core mechanics, it's also fairly demanding when it comes to learning.
Qud is also pretty out there in scope, it's much more RP focused than the average RL which is largely about a specific kind of difficulty design and juggling around a tight set of core mechanics, it's not super autistic like UnReal World but I feel like it's not such a good suggestion for beginners, especially if ADOM is on the same list.
I'd personally add:
>Dungeons of Dredmore
Fairly casual game, really good for getting your feet wet with basic RL conventions
>Zorbus
Easy going ascension style game that focuses on the bare fundamentals, it's basically a more succint (and much more elegant) DCSS with some nice elements like focus on recruiting characters and some great atmosphere due to the focus on audio cues and general ingame banter with NPCs
>casual game
Sorry, I’m no casual shitter.
Considering you don't know what roguelikes even since you got games like Noita on that list I'm not sure about that
Shut the frick up, I bet you never 1CCd a shmup before casual moron
does hard count
lunatic filtered me
You'd be very, very wrong on that too
Light Manipulation is kinda useless on the current Qud versions, still really good for early game but it's already pointless by Bethesda Susa tier content where you have to deal with things that have actual defense or have normality gimmicks.
The real big cheese of current Qud is Corrosive Gas brapper builds, that's still mostly autowin if you're not a total moron.
Aww down say that. I love Light Manipulation though I have never gotten past whatever dungeon is meant to be after the poison/asphalt ones Can't wrap my head around this shit.
tome has way too much going on for your first roguelike
adom has even more shit you would need to read than tome but its at least simpler
never played cogmind
rift wizard seems like a decent option to get into the genre
I think you are better off playing a simpler roguelike first to learn the genre conventions before moving onto more complicated things, but it isn't as if you have to, personally I went straight from playing pokemon mystery dungeon to tome and it was fine.
stuff like jupiter hell, rogue fable, tangledeep, and others are good entry level roguelikes to get you started
dungeon crawl stone soup is also something to try out (dcss)
Tome is completely fine. It has a lot of info bloat in its skills, but other than that (and you can just play simple classes like everyone else does), its a very simple game. No need to worry about grinding because its anti-grind, no need to worry about consumables because its anti-consumable, just go do the areas you can when you can and if you're totally outclassed try to be a higher level or equip better next time.
Adom is also fine. You don't NEED to read shit for Adom. You just play. There are some things that frick you over, but you just learn about them later, you don't need to know them going in. You don't play a roguelike expecting to beat the game first run.
Cogmind and Riftwizard are both awful examples. They have no hp regen. They fundamentally do not play like rogue and are not roguelikes. They're glorified puzzle games. If he plays them, he's not even getting a 'rogue like' experience.
Jupiter hell too AND Tangledeep have no hp regen and play nothing like rogue.
The ideal first roguelike, as always, is DCSS 0.15. It plays like rogue. It has good QoL. It has good variety in spells. Its mostly fair.
Tome4 is free.
Adom is free.
Riftwizard, Noita, Cogmind are not roguelikes.
QuD is overpriced (dunno when they hiked the price up; I paid a fraction of the current cost and it was only 10% off when I bought it)
I googled that last game and its also clearly not a roguelike.
QuD is a good start if you can get it cheap. Very easy game. You can just pick a shield and light manipulation on chargen and that trivializes almost every enemy in the entire game.
>Cogmind are not roguelikes
Okay, I'll bite.
Tell me your moronic definition of "roguelike" that causes Cogmind to not be one.
Remind me when Rogue was about avoiding persistent damage because of the lack of health regen.
Which I already outlined in my post.
Rogue you entered every fight with all resources max unless you ran into a fight before healing, with all resource management being extremely short term outside of items.
Any game where you are managing resources such as hp on the long-term is fundamentally not like rogue and not a roguelike.
I know you won't accept this explanation because Cogmind faboys are all the same, but I will accept your decision to be wrong.
>Remind me when Rogue was about avoiding persistent damage because of the lack of health regen.
So is ADOM not a roguelike then?
You can easily cause yourself "persistent damage" - just not in the form of HP. Equipping curse items, getting Cursed/Doomed, item destruction/degradation, etc. all can be argued to be "long-term damage"
Well, sometimes HP as well. You can lose max HP in DCSS or Jupiter Hell. Fairly permanently as well in the latter.
But even in ADOM you might starve if you try to naturally regenerate all your health between every encounter, at least early on.
And then there is the whole thing about hoarding water. blessing and identifying items, going back to altars because of all of that, growing herbs, etc. There is a lot of long-term management in ADOM.
And there is plenty of roguelikes with "long-term resource management" overall - not everything is ToME.
Thinking that adding HP to the list of resources that you have to long-term manage is somehow disqualifying a game from being a roguelike is incredibly arbitrary.
There are games where healing is readily available, there are games where it's not - we don't have different genres for those.
The difference is just in difficulty and design and balance of combat encounters.
I accept your decision to be wrong.
And I accept your concession.
Thanks bro. 'Preciate that. 'Preciate you. You're a good man, brother. Peace.
Are FPS games with health regen a different genre because Doom doesn't have health regen? Why define genres with such a narrow definition?
Nethack is a classic for a reason, but it's very...esoteric in a lot of choices until you actually learn what the frick you're doing. It's still good but you really stand no chance of surviving long unless you look at a wiki or learn via dying 50 times. But if you pick it up, roll a Dwarven Valkyrie, it's regarded as the easiest class.
Angband and its variants are also fun although the format, especially in the variants like zAngband and Frogcomposband (two that I've played) focuses a lot more on the hack n slash grindy nature of the genre. You still progress a bit like most roguelikes, but it's more about acquiring sheer strength and volume of powerful items, rather than the breadth of options available like in most RLs. Because of this I would recommend going into the settings and enable Auto-Identification and even turn on respawning, as an Angband character is something that takes several times longer than most RL chars to play, and deaths are still just as bullshit. But that's okay because it's still a roguelike, permadeaths are not mandatory for a RL.
Also play PMD if you really want baby-mode roguelikes. Then move on to Shiren the Wanderer for more of a challenge.
Is the Steam version of Nethack good?
play brogue
Brogue is very good
shattered pixel dungeon
This. It's probably one of the most accessible roguelike
I'd say Shiren the Wanderer series, likely 5, as it's of the few you don't need an English patch to play. Shiren 1 on the SFC/SNES was one of the hardest games I've beaten. Shame they never brought back the monster meat mechanic.
Tangledeep is beautiful and very fun.
Dungeonmans is dumb but a good starting point.
Roguelike is a Hack 'n' Slash RPG with simultaneous turns.
>Hack 'n' Slash RPG
is not a mix of two genres, it's a singular genre and is a subgenre of RPG. Most well-known examples of Hack 'n' Slash RPGs are games like Diablo.
>simultaneous turns
is the big thing that distinguishes roguelike gameplay from any other genre.
Everything else is optional. There are traits that are very common to roguelike games but they are not fundamental.
>permadeath
Very common but not mandatory. Rogue/Nethack/ADOM don't magically change genres if you savescum
There are roguelikes that either don't have permadeath or have optional permadeath, for example ToME4 or Stoneshard
>permanence of choices
as the alternative to or an extension of permadeath.
The main reason Rogue had both permadeath and lacked save/load mechanics was because of its identification minigame, which would be rendered useless if the player had the option of reloading.
Overall it aligns deeply with the game design philosophy of most roguelikes but that's just one of the possible approaches - it's not genre-defining.
>grid
Pretty much always present but only because if you're making a roguelike game it's very hard to make it work without the grid.
Hard but not impossible - see the webm related
>procedural generation of content
Common but not genre-defining.
Most HnS RPGs have a degree of procedural generation because it suits the genre well. But nothing stops you from making a roguelike with fully static content.
Likely, you'll not be playing to the strengths of your game but who knows? All the best moments of DoomRL happen in the static pre-made levels.
The Berlin Interpretation is dogshit.
It deliberately does not define what "Roguelike" is.
The only thing it can do is assess how "Roguelike" a given game is using a set of very arbitrary criteria yet it can never be used to claim something is or isn't a Roguelike.
It's a waste of everyone's time and as such should be disregarded.
Cool tech demo but it fails to realize that the reason turn based games don't simulate time like this is that removing real time input makes the simulation mwaningless, and it's cleaner to just abstract everything that relied on continous time away. It's kind of a silly hybrid taking the worst of both real time and turn based combat
You are half-right.
There are reasons and those reasons mostly
>it's a waste of everyone's time when you know what you are doing
But you are wrong about games "not simulating time".
No, most roguelikes do simulate time. The turns aren't atomic - behind those turns there's usually some sort of "Energy" system that decides who gets to act when.
Most actions entities in the game take are instantaneous but have "energy" cost resulting in post-action cooldown period.
As the result, all actions can take less or more time that the usual "turn" would imply.
Having a clear visual feedback allows for implementing "time required for action" systems easier as they'd be obvious to the observer, as opposed to weird and unintuitive in a more traditional approach.
As such, you avoid unexpected double-turns or actions seemingly not taking turns as the approach makes the simulation visible instead of abstracting it away.
And in terms of animations being an unnecessary fluff for a turn-based game - that's kinda true but there's a threshold where player is willing to accept the animation.
Most modern roguelikes play with that idea.
>is the big thing that distinguishes roguelike gameplay from any other genre.
Agreed. I've longed for the day someone would make a action rpg where the world only moves when you do. Imagine something like SUPERHot crossed with Elden Ring or DD.
Superhot is a roguelike
Looks cool.
By simulating time you can see tells, and during pauses you can plan. I can see it being interesting to juggle with multiple enemies.
I agree that simulturn taking is the real core of what people call roguelike.
If you have literally everything else the same but the game isn't tile based it doesn't suddenly become less like it. There should be no obligation to follow a square grid: you can have a hex tesselation, a voxel game, or a free form like your webm and Id argue in defense of it.
Too many people are attached to a specific combination of mechanics to really assess whether ironman mode really does make it a new genre (many games include it as a difficulty option), or how having some sort of overarching progression doesn't change the gameply itself (see mystery dungeon games), and while a change in genre is definitely a lot more significant of a change, the genre's DNA can still persist in a different environment.
This hierarchy of genre immediately seems weird to me, because you're saying that roguelikes are a type of HnS RPG, when HnS RPGs are seemingly games descended from roguelikes (e.g. Diablo). So there would have been some span of time where roguelikes existed, but HnS RPGs had not yet begun to exist. Were roguelikes, at that time, a subgenre or a genre that did not then exist? Or did they retroactively change genres when HnS RPGs emerged?
I'm also not sure if simultaneous turn taking is particularly more important than non-modality, permadeath, controlling of a single character, etc. I think any element one could consider to be 'rogue-like' you could easily make a game, if not find an already extant example of one, that lacks that element yet clearly is a roguelike.
No, if it doesn't have the step based turn system, it can't be a roguelike. Dwarf fortress in fortress mode is still more of a roguelike than any real time game.
>when HnS RPGs are seemingly games descended from roguelikes (e.g. Diablo)
No, Hack 'n' Slash was a common name for tabletop RPG campaigns that focused primarily on combat mostly disregarding the story and whatnot.
The concept itself predates computer RPGs and the specific term is at least as old as Rogue itself.
There were other games predating Rogue (for example Beneath Apple Manor) following similar concepts, because HnS RPGs are generally well translated to video games.
Diablo is not a forefather of HnS RPGs but just the most recognized example of that genre.
>I'm also not sure if simultaneous turn taking is particularly more important than non-modality, permadeath, controlling of a single character, etc. I think any element one could consider to be 'rogue-like' you could easily make a game, if not find an already extant example of one, that lacks that element yet clearly is a roguelike.
It absolutely is.
>non-modality
That's an arbitrary nothing-burger criterion.
Most "canon" roguelikes do not pass it.
It's just cute that in, say, ADOM you drop and pick up shit to sell and buy it respectively but it's completely inconsequential to the core gameplay itself.
>permadeath
If you savescum in ADOM it won't change genres. You just savescummed, that's it.
If you make ADOM real-time you have MASSIVELY changed the way it plays.
>controlling of a single character
It's as important as controlling a single character in an RPG is.
If you control too many character the game starts leaning towards strategy and stops playing like a HnS RPG.
That's why Dwarf Fortress isn't roguelike, despite at a glance looking like one - it's not a HnS RPG.
But the same way you can very well simulate an RPG inside a strategy game, Dwarf Fortress offers a very solid roguelike experience in its Adventure mode.
One could absolutely make a party-based roguelike, it's more of a question how do you keep the game being a HnS RPG instead of becoming something different.
what game is this? looks dope
It's not a finished game, just a part of some indie project this guy is working on.
https://twitter.com/shingpapi
I always got really confused by this. I always thought like was "full reset each time" and lite was "unlockables to make later runs easier" but it seems that's completely wrong.
Roguelike is a very specific genre of game which is very easy to understand if you look at and play just a few of them.
Roguelite is a meaningless label that only spawned from people improperly trying to call their games roguelikes despite very obviously not being even remotely similar to roguelikes outside of a small number of gameplay features. There is no actual similarity between roguelites other than their insistence on trying to co-opt an inappropriate label for no particular reason.
you're right.
roguelike is a genre defining term, often used in correctly. roguelite is a marketing term.
>IVAN isn't a roguelike
What
>necrodancer is hack and slash
always cracks me up man
>do you have fun with the game?
>yes.
>it’s not a roguelike.
I prefer soulslikes.
If it's not 'like Rogue', then it's definitively not a 'Rogue-like'
"Roguelite" is a meme genre that doesn't really exist because all the games using it trying to associate themselves by proxy to actual Rogue-likes are actually just genre-confused because they erroneously all think that 'permadeath + procgen' is enough to be associated with true Rogue-likes.
I've played a lot more roguelikes than most people, since I went through Roguebasin to try out literally anything remotely interesting and the fact is 99% of the roguelike genre is bad. Its almost entirely carried by DCSS, Sil/Q and *Bands (most of which are bad; essentially jsut Frogcomposband and Angband itself are any good)
Basically any other 'roguelike' people prop up is not one. Tome4 and Elona both default to non-permadeath, CDDA plays absolutely nothing like rogue, etc.
The majority of roguelies are in eternal alphas or just glorified renames (not even reskins; they just open the code in notepad + and change 'djinn' to 'anime') of existing projects made by people who actually tried.
Its a shame since some of these games would be fun if finished and some (like DeadManWalking) no longer seem to work on current windows
In comparison even the most blatant ripoff roguelike Slay the Spire wannabe feels more unique than the average roguelike, is actually finished, actually works and may even be fun.
That said, DCSS 0.15 is >>>>> every roguelite
99% of literally everything is shit, moron
>unironically defending dcss
go back troon
enjoy your streamlined o-tab speedrun garbage
Sorry I couldn't even get past your first paragraph without a buzzword and a generic statement of disaproval so I didn't read the rest
One day you will learn how to actually hold a conversation and not be a parrot
dcss has been consistently removing content and mechanics just for the sake of the speedrunning community that formed, disregarding the rest of the players
like the entire hunger and food system for example
This is why I specifically said 0.15
Kimchi is also fine if you ignore the new gods because they're all really poorly designed and the hydra race for same reason
>like the entire hunger and food system for example
I thought people hated when tedious hunger bs is shoved in games?
one of the most important aspects of a roguelike is to have a food clock of some sort to discourage taking your sweet fricking time and encourage actually moving forward and using your resources. however dcss' new implementation isn't interesting at all and also way way way too lenient
We're supposed to hate DCSS now? Sigh ok ill update my script
I think Frozen Depths is really good and underrated one, it just is hard as balls despite being really fun to play, and it is a finished game as far as the dev is concerned.
We shall see
>Points me to a 'preconfigured shortcut'
>Its not
>Have to set it up myself or the text bugs out if you move screen at all
>Need to set up 2 different shortcuts in the same shortcut
Oof, no wonder this is underrated, this is archaic even by genre standards despite this apparently being updated as recently as 2021
Also
>Walk forward once I get this working, start a fight
>9 (nine) total enemies bumrush within 10 tiles of spawn before I've grabbed a single item in the 'tutorial' (which is just an info dump)
Oof
Ok so what are the best roguelites?
the ones I like
ToME
Cataclysm dda
FTL with the Multiverse mod
Faster Than Light, Into The Breach, uuuuuh... I'm done.
Slay the Spire & FTL are the kings. Honorable mention to Synthetik.
Is Nethack any good?
It's like a mix between a text adventure game and a dungeon crawler. Probably the best out of the original ascii roguelikes. Many hidden mechanics, though. The game has an in-game note system for a reason. Play it blind if you're a masochist, although if you win doing that NOBODY can claim you're bad at videogames.
Roguelite-like
The problem with roguelikes is that it's very hard to make a good one but very easy to make a game that looks like it. its hard for the consumer to know between an insanely good one and a meh one without trying them themselves and playing for quite some time. im sure a well designed roguelike that has been refined for years can be really deep and enjoyable but games are never thoroughly designed these days, much easier to shit dollars on jeets to make graphics than having talented people who think and refined an harmonious system until its reaches a satisfactory degree of depth and fun
the thing that i miss from new games is the difficulty. back when the games didnt compromise, where you lost at the first level, and the game had much depth to offer and felt like something grand a mysterious, that felt like it could never be mastered (uinless you invest too much time) and had much surprises. it gave the game a soul in a sort of way. its kindof the ultimate RPG type in terms of gameplay, kinda feels like a Lone Wolf gamebook. i wonde rif a 3D roguelike is possible, itd require to be really good to make for the huge budget necessary to make so much 3D assets and systems visually represented
I also wish they went back to add more RPG stuff (pick keys scrolls etc) when nowadays they seem to exclusively focused on combat
What are some good roguelikes according to you then?
can a homie get a rogue-heavy?
no one actually uses roguelite, and barely anyone plays that kind of roguelike. Just accept that you have to use "traditional roguelike" since everyone else calls their games roguelikes.
Is there any topic more stupid to argue about than definitions?
yes, going into a thread of a topid you dont care about, arguing about the arguments happening in it, and then being mad about it
>*autism beam noises*
I do care about it, but the whole discussion stems from "officially" undefined terms which evoke differing ideas on people. Then they argue which one of the headcanons is correctest.
and yet you are still here, replying to me, proving my point
>going into a thread of a topid you dont care about
>I do care about it
stop replying to bait moron
you do realize arguing about that part specifically makes you look even MORE autistic, right?
Rogue is not a fricking Roguelike, it's fricking Rogue.
It's like calling Metroid a Metroidvania.
Metroid is a Metroidvania
Where's the vania in metroid?
What a dumb question. Wheres the metroid in hollow knight? The vania in ESA?
And to answer your gay question the vania is in metroid itself becuase the term started as a way to describe castlevania games that played like metroid than evovled over time. Thats like saying "wheres the roleplaying" in literally any rpg
>Thats like saying "wheres the roleplaying" in literally any rpg
Vidya rpgs are just an approximation of rpgs though.
>It's like calling Metroid a Metroidvania.
Anon...
like
like ftl is the perfect roguelike
What are some good lighthearted semi-old meme movies like Idiocracy or Zoolander? Anything but Dumb and Dumber.
little nicky maybe? i only saw it as a kid and i remember being grossed out by the guy with breasts on his head or whatever
or maybe big daddy
Little Nicky is the one about the escaped hellspawn, right? Deep South and shit? Pretty alright recommendation.
It's about the devil and stuff ya I think
Dude Wheres my Car
Just bought Tales of Majin’Buu, what am I in for?
Diablo meets Roguelike.
I hate that they started releasing alternative campaigns instead of just adding to the main campaign.
I got the one on Steam, should I get the DLCs as well?
They are seperate campaigns, but I think they are meant for when you are done and sick of the main one.
>Embers
Good DLC. Has its own campaign. But you're barely played the base game, which is far better balanced (at least the first half). Get this if you end up really liking tome4 and wanting more variety.
>Ashes
Fun classes, no real content beyond this. Get this if you like the sound of the classes and have played all sounding fun vanilla ones.
>Cult
Don't even get this one unless you want the overpowered race. Its classes are incredibly boring (one boils down to rote sequence of actions, the other just takes years to kill anything) with RNG based cooldown, it barely adds any content, what content it does add is hidden behind spoiler based mechanics listed literally nowhere with no guides for finding any of it so you'll never find 99% of the DLC (the frick was the dev thinking?) and despite this it costs the most.
tldr;
Get embers and ashes later
Only one of them is a seperate campaign. I really don't get why you feel the need to comment without knowing the most basic info, its actively unhelpful.
>The best roguelikes are the ones that don't play like rogue at all
Based secondary
None of the games you mentioned are roguelikes.
You mean tome4? That game is free.
Also good first half, terrible second half.
I was bored out of my mind with it. Enemies feels meaningless, massive mountain trolls get 2shot just like wolves and rats. Gear felt meaningless, number vomit and UNIQUE ONE OF A KIND ARTIFACTS flooding my inventory and these artifacts are barely better than my regular shit.
Incomprehensibly ugly sprites, especially the walls, sometimes can barely tell I'm entering a building because of how scuffed it looks.
Lots of builds with skills and passives all over the place yet few of them actually feel meaningful. Either 50 turn cooldowns or shitty tiny number incrementals.
Nothing feels satisfying to play. Everything feels weightless and effortless until you randomly stumble upon a forrest rat with a red circle around it and it oneshots you.
Anons I got cogmind but I am bored because I find myself doing the same strategy over and over again, and it just seems like the best thing to do no matter what, I can't into making different builds
The best Roguelikes are the ones that just world simulators + RPG, so CDDA, Elona and Unreal world were my favorite, also DF adventure mode i had alot of fun in, but its easily the most undercooked Roguelike out there. Honorable mention to lifeweb as well, but its really not a Roguelike, more of an round based MMO with perma death for your one character.
how come it's in arabic
what is the game in your image? when i look up "soulbreakers roguelike" i get some homosexual visual novel shit
https://store.steampowered.com/app/665720/SOULBREAKER/
Its lifeweb, Soul breakers are a group of futuristic spacer Arabic space pirates that beam down onto the planet to enslave people heavily inspired by Dune. They are a playable late game based event you can opt-into. They are even getting there own spin-off game set in the same universe. soon
oh yeah scorcher
im hyped
i actually got inside lfwb but the interaction with objects were too much for me and didnt manage to learn much before newbie november ended and i was too afaird to go in and frick up at the most basic shit infront of everyone so i just never connected again
nah, homie. You're okay, the best parts of Lifeweb are when you are still new and learning what all the game has to offer and its limitations. No one really cares how new you are so long as you don't spout Redditor shit.
i was a priest once and someone asked me to deal with zombies and i just stood there trying to navigate the menu to find where the button was while everyone else got mauled to death, same round where i nearly drowned myself trying to shit in a river
like, i wouldnt care as much if i wasnt also ruining shit for everyone around me, the worst part is letting down others
Oh, fellow cave mig huh, Well let me tell you. Craft two stone blocks and place them in a door way surrounded by all rock walls/stone walls. Zombie homosexuals cannot pull anything only push, you've effectively completely Zombie proofed your base, make sure to do it next to a natural river or Aquifer and you will never die to a zombie homosexual again.
Also, believe me, i've done worse things. Try mining rock walls at the beginning of a Mig round and causing a cave in on the entire party 2 minutes into the round, The amount of seethe i got in OOC at the time was hilarious, but its all in good faith and just part of the game experience. You'll get better eventually.
They’re both excuses to be lazy and not make actual content.
Only autistic basement dwelling morons care about the distinction.
>a-actually its different because
No one cares incel 🙂
You tell them, bro!
Civilization 5 is my favorite FPS too!
Counter-Strike is my favorite roguelite.
roguelite itself is such a meme genre. I own like 100 of them. Barely any of them play the same. Some are top down shooters, some are card games, some are top down melee combat games aping the style of a flash game I've long forgotten the name of (raksasi is like this, I know there's an old game I played that looked basically the same perspective and artstyle wise), some are shooters, some are sidescrolling action games, etc etc
It really just seems to be a label for devs to put on games they
A: Have no actual map designer for
And B: Have no one capable of balancing
So you run through random (but never randomated enough to not feel the same every run) maps and stack + attack until you win via grind
Sometimes to the detriment of the game, like Breach wanderer requiring nearly 100 complete runs to max its classes or Gunfire Reborn requiring you to nearly max the metaprogression for protection v being 1 shot when enemies can crit and 1 shot you as early as the second area
Isaac tied almost all of its progression to completing very specific tasks and its the inspiration the majority claim if they claim one, so I don't get how so many turn Isaac's system to "die 50 times get +1 attack"
homosexuals saying "it's not really a roguelike" because it's not a 1:1 reskin of rogue are like the homosexuals saying an obvious Mary Sue character isn't a Mary sue because she's not 1:1 with the original Mary Sue story which was actually made extremely exaggerated on purpose since it was a parody of the trope.
I will keep calling TboI a roguelike and you'll keep seething about it.
>you will keep being a wrong moron
ok
No reason to doubt the anon, he was already right that you'll keep seething about it.
Again, continue to seethe.
For me I really term roguelite to differentiate between games that have a permeant progression system and not. The term roguelite is a thing now, you might as well use it to help separate stuff for the thing the damn thing was made for, you know, conveying differences. I think some people take offense to the term "Roguelite" as if an attack on there ego.
Having rogue-likes for games that are like rogue, and rogue-lites for games that feature perma-death and random stuff would be ideal, but most people don't bother enough to even understand the diference.
this is how i describe it. rouge-lites are just games in other genres with rogue-like elements.
QuD is trash. Giant open world for no reason, all these systems that hint at depth but don't actually provide any, 99% of battles are best handled by either using every one of your mutations/cybernetics then running away until they're off cooldown, or jiding behind force wall and shotting everything the with the carbine.
Trash exploration, trash combat, and somehow even trash character building despite having so many options
It is absolutely the biggest waste of fricking time in the entire genre, stay away
The game is EA, you moron.
(you)
frick, too late i just bought it
I have not played a roguelike that was fun.
I played tons of fun roguelites.
Can I just get a normal fricking video game not a "metroidvania roguelike" like seriously we never called shit autistic beardsoy names like this back in the day.
>can we stop using autistic buzzwords
>can't make it through an entire post without using them itself
It's funny how mentally disabled you are
>you complain about society yet you partake in it
It is humerous.
I did an slight smile.
Not a full one, though
FPS: First person shooter.
You shoot in first person
Roguelike: Like rogue. Its like rogue.
Brainlet.
Oh are we playing the "taking genre names literally" game? Super Mario 64 is an RPG because you play the role of Mario? Zelda is a strategy game because you make strategic decisions? Sim City is an action game because you perform actions in it?
I miss when frogcomposband got updates
The dev is still sometimes poking the Github repository. Maybe someday.
Ganker educate yourselves
>Risk of Rain 2 is a roguelike
Dumb thing to say
>Risk of Rain 2 is a roguelike third person shooter
I am now informed of what your game is like, thank you for sharing
>Risk of Rain 2 is a roguelike third person shooter
No such thing. That's like saying that Warcraft 3 is an isometric first person shooter.
No it's not, because it's not first person, or a shooter, or isometric.
Exactly. And Risk of Rain is not a roguelike as it's not top down/grid/turn based.
First person, shooter and isometric all mean singular things as defined by the very name so they either are that or not. That's not the case with the term roguelike. Not to mention it would be a pretty boring genre if they all played exactly the same.
Roguelike specifically means a top down view game played on a grid map. This directly contradicts "third person".
No it specifically means "like rogue" without any clear definition in what ways matter. Which is why this whole thing became a big debate.
>clear definition
Its.. in the name.
Being like rogue
>without any clear definition in what ways matter
>in what ways matter
What is the common gameplay element between Isaac, Faster than Light, Risk of Rain and Slay the Spire?
Randomly generated routes? I almost said randomly generated maps, but some of those games don't even have an map. That's literally the only thing. Indie games with randomized elements. That's your """""genre"""".
Instead of roguelike, may I recommend calling the subgenre as "indieshit"? Or roguelite if you really, really have to.
It’s less of a debate and more of a
>guy on the internet shits his diaper for attention
Risk of Rain 2 is basically a genre itself.
god I would kill to see my favourite roguelike/roguelite games leave early access period asap.
>stoneshard
>cdda
>quasimorph
to name some.
For me it’s qud, shit has been in early access for nearly a decade at this point
>CDDA leave early access
It's not in EA. It's in continuous development. "Leaving EA" just means it getting abandoned with no more content.
If you don't like the bugs play the stable releases.
Rogue Fable 3 is the GOAT
Why isn't Elona on Steam? I hate playing non-Steam games on my PC...
Which version?
Elona hasn't been updated for a decade and Elona+ is a modding project. Besides the currently popular version in the English scene is Elona+ Custom GX.
Elin is on Steam, though. You're too late for early access signup though.
I meant to link this. Guess I didn't copy the link hard enough
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2135150/Elin/
I really love Infra Arcana and Quasimorph.
Also are the Mystery Dungeon games even roguelikes, as most of them have some sort of meta-progression in the form of being able to store weapons for later runs and are devoid of permadeath.
In PMD you don't even lose levels, only items, unlike in the Shiren the Wanderer series where you can lose both.
If meta-progression disqualifies most roguelites from being roguelikes why are Mystery Dungeon games immune to such criticism?
The same reason tome4 and tangledeep are usually immune, roguelike is a FEELING
They are true roguelikes. Optional permadeath just makes it less difficult but won't change the genre.
Spamming Quicksave in an FPS instead of having checkpoints does not change the fact that it's an FPS.
But being an FPS isn’t defined by it having quicksaves or not.
Neither are roguelikes defined by permadeath. It's a difficulty setting that's optional in many classic roguelikes.
The ridiculous thing is that indiehomosexuals define "roguelike" as basically permadeath + randomly generated, while actual real roguelikes often aren't even permadeath.
>actual real roguelikes often aren't even permadeath.
That's completely wrong, anon. Couldn't be more wrong.
>If meta-progression disqualifies most roguelites from being roguelikes
Meta-progression is irrelevant in this conversation, people just jump onto unimportant distinctions they see.
ADOM has a case of metaprogression - literally no one says ADOM is not a roguelike.
ToME has metaprogression but generally gets a pass because it's generally about unlocks and not about power (which isn't exactly true). When people (incorrectly) argues against it being a roguelike they usually focus on permadeath not being mandatory.
Meta-progression just often leads to lazy design that's why it generally disliked outside of games that were fundamentally (and most importantly, properly) designed around it in the first place.
Playing ToME without perma death on can do some funny shit
The... Temporal Ranger? class, the one that spawns dogs, freaks the frick out if you die, all the existing dogs will remain spawned and you'll start spawning a fresh batch
I played with lives while learning the game then transitioned to permadeath and I have never managed to beat the game since : |
I am a shitter
ToME requires a very specific approach to risk mitigation and it's very oneshot-happy.
It's genuinely balanced around having lives.
You can consistently play it on Roguelike but it requires a lot of meta-knowledge.
It's also balanced around having a lot of coffee so you don't fall asleep on the thousands of trash mobs between two 1shot capable random elites.
tome damage can just get moronic at times
>trying early release of the annihilator class
>it had like 80 DR, near 100% evasion, gigantic flat damage shave, near maxed resistances, another 1/3rd chance of just not taking damage, 2 seperate hp bars, another mechanic for just not taking full damage, then another for evading it AND my race had damage resistance built in
>Died in 1 hit on just 1 difficulty above normal to a generic horror enemy
Shits stupid
PMD's endgame dungeons strip you of all your items, money, and levels before you enter. even if one doesn't consider the entire game as a "true" roguelike, those dungeons meet the criteria.
If its not turn based then its not a roguelike. Simple as
Diablo 1 is the best roguelike.
it seems the majority has shifted the term roguelike to mean the right one so I guess its a roguelike now.
recommend me a *band variant, ive heard but not tried tome2, silq and frogcomposband, any others worth considering? which ones are good?
Imo once you've played Angband itself (best QoL and overall design, most up to date) and Poschengband (terrible QoL and design, but by far the most actual fun) there's little reason to play anything else that labels itself a *band. They're all just more boring or less polished versions of those.
ok but im asking cuz i played angband and i want more angband
Sil/Sil-Q is the best variant in my view, but it does make some profound alterations to the Angband formula like it's own magic system, overhauled combat, removal of gold and stores and a classless and levelless character progression so it almost feels like a new game.
>rogue"""like"""
>posts actual screenshot of fricking rogue
is doom a doom-like?
is diablo a diablo-like?
have a nice day.
anyway, like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lite.
Currently trying to get back into CDDA with zombie evolution off. Frick skeleton hulks. Also how long before I die of vitamin deficiency or obesity? I don't remember that shit being in the last version.
None. I don't like procedurally generated slop and losing progress every time you die is annoying.
I avoid both of them for a few reasons.
1) None of them have been as good as Spelunky in 2013
2) Developers are now using the genre as an excuse to not have to design levels or balance gameplay
3) it's all so tiresome
I prefer likes, but there are some really good lites too
Roguelites.
I didn't like Rogue legacy 2
Even saying I liked 1 is a strech
can't lie and say that I don't like this song tho
It feels like Rogue Legacy 2 wants you to die significantly more than Rogue Legacy 1 did. And I kind of don't respect the game for that.
Doesn't matter to me, the only tag that makes me ignore a game quicker than either one of those is deck builder.
Dungeon Crawler. I don't want to get caught up in a moronic debate about what it is when at the end of the day I just want to play a dungeon crawler. Whether that's in a figurative or literal dungeon, turn-based roleplaying or real-time action, I just want to dungeon crawl.
Played picrel a while ago and thought it was neat.
I'm not very familiar with the genre. Are there any games anons would recommend to get started with?
DCSS. 0.15 is the best version, newer versions are easier though so if you have no standards play that.
Caves of Qud if its on a steep sale, otherwise its not worth it.
Angband/Sil-Q both have good QoL and tiles, but the former is kind of boring and the latter is very linear in its approach.
Golden Krone Hotel. Similar dungeon branch system to DCSS, easier game.
Maybe DemonsRL if you want a more team focussed affair (its SMT, essentially, with the demon bribing and such) but there's only like 1 guy who's even good at that game so can't comment too much.
Elona/Tome4 (free on the devs site btw)/CDDA are not roguelikes, but people who like roguelikes tend to like them and they have similar control schemes and such to get used to.
>DCSS. 0.15
Not the worst choice but it removed most of the fun from Nemelex. I'd pick 0.14 over it.
I personally stick with 0.17. As long as you're not on one of the cuck builds that put your ghosts in a cuckshed, I think you're fine.
Like.
I don't derive any enjoyment from grinding for unlocks for the next run.
this thread reminded me of a rougelike i used to play years ago. I can't remember shit about it now though, except it was a desktop game, had none chibi characters, and i think started on a greyish tileset.
FRICK THIS THREAD DON'T MAKE ME PLAY ELONA AGAIN
for me, it's elea warmage
>Left college assignment
>Right actual game with a game dev team behind and years of work
I just want a fun game where repeat a near endless cycle of "kill thing, get loot. kill bigger thing, get better loot, so on and so on"
I'm about ready with my 20ish-th playthrough of borderlands 2
Diablo 3 was fun enough, never played 2, is it worth looking into? Or any other suggestions?
https://www.humblebundle.com/games/earth-defense-force-friends-unite
Unironically, that's literally what EDF is
>World Brothers
>Wingdiver The Shooter
>Iron Rain
>DLC that isn't the mission packs
Why
Dunno, I only redeemed EDF5. Fun game. Having a blast
Will probably give the others away at some point as with most keys
hes right you know
I actually like Rogue-likes so have a mild hate for lites just because they nearly all have idiot devs that can't tell the difference so finding a new game that is actually like Rogue has become near impossible now.
I call them Redditlikes.
none of them are like rogue though.
Why do people who insist on misusing the term roguelike, always act as if the people who actually care about real roguelikes are being the unreasonable or silly ones, when the ones who for no good reason are incorrectly using the genre name of a genre for games not even remotely similar to said genre?
It's so, so fricking easy to just call your games roguelites instead. So not doing it just makes you an butthole.
Because there is an even smaller, noisier subset of people who don't even like that term. Have you played Rogue? It's a fricking artifact. A real one. And some people don't like other games that are similar being compared to it.
Remember the controversy of Palword and Pokemon?
All these autists trying to latch on to the "roguelike" label with games like BoI/FTL/etc are disgusting because the only reason they even started trying to call those games roguelikes is to earn hardcore gamer points. And by they, I mean games journalists who wanted to feel good for beating FTL on easy mode after 500 attempts but can't even get past Sokoban in Nethack.
I wish path of exile had a roguelike mode
(I will try ruthless but it's still a very long playtime)
>bad gameplay and graphics vs good gameplay and graphics
gee, what a hard choice...
i prefer likes to lites. i find them more consistently entertaining, i am much more likely to play them over the years than lites which seem to have a shorter tiredness time for me personally. i also find that i appreciate likes play like not other video game genre which lends them more appeal while i could find a variety of other games that play similar to particular roguelites because they are always a genre mash with some roguelike elements.
lite is much more satisfying and fun
like is just work
Depends on what sort of game I feel like playing. Both are pretty fricking great but it is VASTLY harder to construct a RogueLIKE that isn't shit compared to a RogueLITE that isn't shit. Hell I can't even think of 7 RogueLIKEs that are worth fricking playing.
Just play Pixel Dungeon
I prefer lites but I was introduced to the genre via Flash Isaac, now it's my favorite genre to play. Not a big fan of likes, too much gets reset.
What are some roguelikes where the optimal way to play is also the fun way to play?
Don't exist
Do people still play PCB? Any good, new long roguelikes? I want the experience of dying and losing 30 hours of work.
Caves of Qud comes to mind
Mystery Dungeons are the superior genre. Best of both worlds.