Edelgard's route in 3 Houses, complete with evil Vizier right hand man. Rhea is just as evil as Edelgard but they won't let you side with her, she's even the final boss in the church route kek.
>spoiler
damn... that's actually pretty goofy. I thought the final boss in the church route would be edelgard. I've only played edelgard's route to completion, stopped halfway through Dimitri's route, one day I'll finish it.
while I agree that Rhea is pretty fricking shitty, especially when it comes to how she views you, I really don't think it's comparable to kidnapping and killing school children, killing your father, and starting a continent wide war because the mole people gaslit her into thinking the church that preaches equality is the bad guy
> All these nobody characters from slop games. > Not the OG, and greatest of them all.
Pitiful.
Sarevok was good for this
Yes.
May as well have been a completely different character from his BG1 self. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but Throne of Bhaal Sarevok was completely different.
>Viper School is famous for being sneaky and using poison >Their most famous member is built like a brick shithouse, probably most jacket character in all games
I do not understand
>probably most jacked character in all games
I don't think it's even a probably. Even the strongmen from 2 aren't as big as him
It's weird that no one comments on it (Geralt does once calling him the largest dude he's even seen) but everyone should be saying something
Foltest should've seen this blind monk that's the size of a battering ram and maybe thought something was off
>Foltest should've seen this blind monk that's the size of a battering ram and maybe thought something was off
this is the funniest one to me >hey, this nice, wholesome monk who spent his life reading books is built like a fricking absolute brickhouse of a gigachad >yep, nothing wrong with that
To me it seemed like those Ganker videos when an absolute beast is hiding in a hoodie and you don't really realize it until it's off. No different from a monk's robe, clothes are very deceiving.
Der Langrisser is amazing for this. You have plenty of routes in that game one the normal hero route, others slight adjustments to the same route one route in which
you join the empire after getting the holy sword, and another where you take the sword for yourself, join no side, and just deal with everything and everyone for your own ends to the point where you go to heaven and tell your ancestors to piss off, another where you join the chaosgay monster lord guy
yeah, whent he antagonist is going to join the party but you get to fricking kill him instead.
I killed loghain and I killed Magus. Every time the option is offered I will take it. You don't get to run around being evil and causing untold horrors only just to turn around and try to help. Frick all the way off.
yeah, whent he antagonist is going to join the party but you get to fricking kill him instead.
I killed loghain and I killed Magus. Every time the option is offered I will take it. You don't get to run around being evil and causing untold horrors only just to turn around and try to help. Frick all the way off.
I usually let Magus help but kill Loghain
The difference is in goals and consequences. Magus' goal was ALWAYS the same as the party's, killing Lavos. He took a reprehensible path to getting there but he thought it was the only option available to him, trapped in the middle ages as he was, and especially with the death of Crono there is no reason not to recruit him as you have the same enemy and you are needing as much firepower as possible.
Loghain's goal was never the Darkspawn, or at least it was not his main goal. Loghain foolishly mistook Orlais for a bigger threat and torn Ferelden in half trying to unite them against the perceived threat to the west while ignoring the very obvious, growing one in the south. His efforts actively weakened the country and made the Darkspawn that much more dangerous in the end. What's worse, there is no way to recruit Loghain without alienating and possibly even killing Alistair, a steadfast companion who's been with you since the start of the game. Magus doesn't cost you anything.
If you make Alistair marry Anora, recruit Loghain, don't do the ritual and sacrifice Loghain, Alistair essentially says "huh, that all worked out. Good job!" to you at the party.
That said I usually recruit him and do the ritual. He fricked up everything but once he's proven wrong he accepts he fricked up and does what he can to make things right. Also it's cool seeing him again in Inquisition.
Loghain makes sense if your character got forced or tricked into joining the Wardens and shortening your life with Alistair happily taking part in this so you don't give a frick about making him king. Also if you plan on marrying Anora so it's all win-win.
Enemy of my enemy scenario, he has useful info, is great in a fight, annoys all the dogmatic companions, has a great sense of humor and also he's hot and you can frick him.
Only fits a very specific personality of a narcissistic, opportunistic scoundrel that wants to have an exotic pet and doesn't care for consequences. Dogmatic, Iconoclast, Sensible and Heretic characters should kill him.
>he actually isn't more of a problem than most of the other party members
Maybe, but I couldn't justify recruiting him with my character anyway. Him not being as bad once you recruit is meta knowledge
2 months ago
Anonymous
my character figured he had no other options so he'd be manageable but yeah it's fair that most characters wouldn't do it
Heinrix wasn't even seething there, he was just correct. There was actually no good justification for recruiting Marazhai. Just a nonsensical conceit of the videogame to allow you to do that.
Only fits a very specific personality of a narcissistic, opportunistic scoundrel that wants to have an exotic pet and doesn't care for consequences. Dogmatic, Iconoclast, Sensible and Heretic characters should kill him.
Is Rogue Trader playable now? I've heard it was a buggy piece of shit and there was no way to 100% it without fixing everything yourself using toybox.
Is it still the case? I was looking forward to that game
nta and for what it's worth there at least don't seem to be any game ruining bugs anymore, there have been new people posting in the RT general and no one's run into any so I think the latest patches fixed them
Worse. There arent much to do outside of the main quests and the quest/world barely react at all to your choices, even when your choices should logically have a big impact on whats going on.
Though most/all the companions have pretty satisfying conclusions to their stories in the last two acts.
2 months ago
Anonymous
well it affects who allies with you for the gate fight which should narratively be a big deal it's just one battle in game terms
and then there's the heretic route for eufrates and all the different ways to solve companion quests
2 months ago
Anonymous
Dunno, seems better than act 3 in Tyranny, then again I don't think you CAN get more barren than that
Nta and no, definitely not that bad. There are some good quests the plot developments are just rushed and act 4 is like a third of the size of act 2 with act 5 being shorter than act 1.
Alright, doesn't seem too bad, kinda like WOTR after demon city or Kingmakers final act just being the House of Pain
2 months ago
Anonymous
I might just have a questionable memory, but i remembered Tyranny being less barren, though i cant say for certain.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Its first act was honestly pretty great, one of my favorites as far as CRPG's go, second didn't reach same heights but was alright, and then third act was like three missions I believe and you just choose whether or not betray Kyras or stay loyal to the overlord, and loyalty option was added later so it feels out of place because everyone during act 3 acts(eh?) like you are about to rebel
Its really bad
2 months ago
Anonymous
nta and i remember tyranny being way worse
really everything after you got the spire felt phoned in
Nta and no, definitely not that bad. There are some good quests the plot developments are just rushed and act 4 is like a third of the size of act 2 with act 5 being shorter than act 1.
>scary inquisitorial fed minder >impotent seethe when you recruit not just any enemy of man, but one that has been irrefutably involved in sacking your own worlds
Owlhack should stick to stories others have written.
While there's justifications for recruiting Loghain, every point Alistair makes about it is correct
He's not at all valuable as a general
He's a c**t who did everything wrong until now
Not killing him is a personal insult to Alistair
I don't remember the name but there was a JRPG with an entire optional side route where you use a disguise and ambush your teammates slowly destroying their self esteem only to fully mindbreak them at the end when you reveal it was you all along before defeating them all at once in a "bossrush" style
BG3 is canon only in the literal sense. As far as a thematic spiritual successor, BG 1 and 2 have none. Larian is trash. BG3 is just corporate fanfic.
[...]
[...]
[...]
May as well have been a completely different character from his BG1 self. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but Throne of Bhaal Sarevok was completely different.
That's very true. He seemed like a different person entirely.
Was SMRPG first to do this?
No. There were examples in the old SSI Gold Box AD&D games. Pretty sure there's earlier ones, too. It's an ancient trope going back further even than classical Greek myth.
Wizards really seems to hate Baldur's Gate for some reason
Even for 3, they hand-picked Larian yet were so shit to work with, Swen doesn't want anything to do with them anymore
Wizards have been spiteful c**ts about BG1/2 for decades at this point.
Even from the start, their "official novelisation" had them hiring a writer who very blatantly just rewrote a few names of a story he'd already written.
Then they did shit like have chaarname go out like a b***h to a random assassin (though they retconned this again later), ruined viconia and sarevok, retconned Irenicus and probably more.
The fact that Swen hates them enough to throw away what could be a money printer makes it clear they were dicks to work with even now, and they're probably even going to frick with BG3 down the line too.
I wonder why they are so anal about it, seems like a faithful recreation of the setting, can't be brand protection because it doesn't tarnish it much AND they have several official settings under DnD
2 months ago
Anonymous
I think
Why are they like this? Are they seriously just mad that the games were successful or what? >Then they did shit like have chaarname go out like a b***h to a random assassin (though they retconned this again later), ruined viconia and sarevok, retconned Irenicus and probably more.
Yeah at this point I'm going to consider everything past BG2 non canon or an alternate timeline. They can't take my comfy memories of BG2, lol.
has the right of it.
They seem to just be unreasonably angry that a product not made by them is so popular.
It makes you wonder why the frick they even licensed it
2 months ago
Anonymous
That is a very odd thing to be mad about, since it popularizes your own products, but I suppose jealousy could make sense, even though I always figured big suit execs don't care about that stuff
2 months ago
Anonymous
The only other explanation I can think of is if they went Games Workshop levels of full moron, and deliberately fricked with any non tabletop adaptions to make sure they didn't supplant it.
Even GW realised that was moronic eventually, but Wizards seem to be even less competent so it's possible.
Why are they like this? Are they seriously just mad that the games were successful or what? >Then they did shit like have chaarname go out like a b***h to a random assassin (though they retconned this again later), ruined viconia and sarevok, retconned Irenicus and probably more.
Yeah at this point I'm going to consider everything past BG2 non canon or an alternate timeline. They can't take my comfy memories of BG2, lol.
As a dwarf or mage I can sometimes rationalize this, but as a city elf or especially a human noble, I can't forgive this butthole and especially his fricking lieutenant Howe for fricking up Denerim and killing my family. I chop his head off every time
>grey wardens are scam lol >gets warden'd >death by archdemon
how's that for scam huh? >b-b-b-but you'll make him hero
don't care lol, I still was leader of the gang who made it all possible, he was just throwaway pawn
there are plenty of history books and mages capable of explaining him what the frick is going on about grey warden, but he just preffered to seethe over some french gays
Nobody knows why Grey Wardens are required, because they keep their rituals secret. From perspective of everyone else Grey Wardens being required might be just their propaganda. And Grey Wardens in Ferelden overstep their boundaries while at this same time looking like leeches on the nation and government, siphoning tax money and freeing criminals while doing fricking nothing. Since he needed a sacrificial lamb, they were perfect.
And he was right in not wanting foreign troops in his land, especially from hostile country, no matter what.
I mean it would make sense that he would think Grey Wardens were full of hot air, but only if THE BLIGHTED HORDE WASN'T LITERALLY RIGHT THERE WHEN HE BETRAYED THEM
He knew they were there, he could see them, he betrayal hinged on them being there, so ignorance of grey wardens purpose shouldn't be a thing
He assumed it's just another Darkspawn surfacing, because it's uncommon. And he further didn't believe Grey Wardens that they are actually needed.
>And he was right in not wanting foreign troops in his land, especially from hostile country, no matter what.
and yet as of DA:I this "hostile" country never invaded
Their troops would not be eager to leave once they were in country, it's a justified and logical stance to take, backed up by historical evidence and common sense, which is why even Machiavelli wrote of this centuries ago. Inviting foreign troops to your country is inviting trouble. Them not invading still by the time of DA:I is a meta knowledge
NTA, but did it? I've played the game so long ago I don't remember.
Also it just doesn't make much sense >hey, there are these warriors who can fight blightspawn super well, know the most about them and can sense their presence >uhhh,, why do we need them again during a blight?
Yes, you can talk with granny about this. It's all legends and there are no actual records on how those ancient blights were defeated. For all that is known they could have been normally defeated in battles and Grey Wardens only got exaggerated in legends to make it a better story.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>It's all legends and there are no actual records on how those ancient blights were defeated
What? No it isn't. It's historical record. There's names, details, dates. Grey Wardens winning against the Blights is more concrete than anything Andraste did and literally no one questions her existing
2 months ago
Anonymous
Why do I have to even argue this? It's how this game was written. All of this is in it spelled out. It's why discount Macbeth acts like he does. Bioware stole Night's Watch from ASOIAF 1 to 1. Grey Wardens are Warrior Order recruiting from criminals, which is disliked, not trusted and deemed unnecessary (actually even worse than their mirror in ASOIAF). Tales about their purpose are not believed just like people don't believe, remember and care about Night's Watch duty against White Walkers. It's a huge plot point that people don't know Grey Warden's rituals and how they work. It shocks your character, Alistar and Loghain when you learn how to defeat Archdeamon.
There is no such thing, for all everyone knows those were just regular battles and Grey Wardens aren't needed. Any other force is enough
Grey Wardens are part of myths like in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDITFcHODk4
Most people may have forgotten, but not all, and Warden manuscripts still existed.
Jesus Christ, why am I even arguing about this? They're shit games. Ok, sure, you're right about absolutely everything and I am obviously quoting from, shit I dunno, Naked Lunch? Yeah that it, Naked Lunch: Lord of Rings Edition. Don't @ me with one of your quote bombs. I feel soiled even thinking about this stupid shit.
>Most people may have forgotten, but not all, and Warden manuscripts still existed.
And none of this shit justified Wardens being mandatory >Don't @ me with one of your quote bombs
I refuse
2 months ago
Anonymous
>And none of this shit justified Wardens being mandatory
They were the only ones able to physically carry out the task. That is why that organization existed. Try playing the game you hyperventilating knob. I told you to frick off and not @ me. Learn to read as well while you're there.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>They were the only ones able to physically carry out the task. That is why that organization existed.
That's a meta knowledge people in setting don't take for granted. It's why characters in game, including Loghain, doubt their necessity. Every time Blight happens everyone thinks they can destroy them by normal means and then get btfo, just like Loghain. Then Grey Wardens succeed and nobody knows why because they refuse to tell. This is the plot point of the game. People don't know why Grey Wardens are needed. >Try playing the game you hyperventilating knob
I played 3 times and last time in somewhere in 2019 >I told you to frick off and not @ me
And I will refuse to obey again
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Game makes a point to mention that nobody ever knew why they are needed
It's a magical medieval fantasy world. Nobody knows shit >How does magic work >Why are we ruled by a king instead of anarcho-syndicate commune?
People accept things as a they come and the Grey Wardens being the reason Blights were stopped is an established fact >and all their historical victories look like an exaggerated propaganda from legends and myths
What? How? Is there a vast Grey Warden propaganda machine? That doesn't make any sense
It's like saying no one actually believes in Andraste because there's no actual proof of her deeds
>It's a magical medieval fantasy world. Nobody knows shit
Fantasy worlds still have internal consistency and characters in them take certain things as facts, while others as made up bullshit >How does magic work
Their mages are working on understanding it >Why are we ruled by a king instead of anarcho-syndicate commune?
Because of historical precedents in this setting >People accept things as a they come
No they don't. Everything always has to be justified and enforced >and the Grey Wardens being the reason Blights were stopped is an established fact
No, it's part of legends not everyone believes in because there is no reason to believe why they are needed. >What? How? Is there a vast Grey Warden propaganda machine?
There is and Grey Wardens are international organization siphoning money from and enjoying privileges in multiple countries, while not providing any proof as to why they are required and not being actually needed for a long time >It's like saying no one actually believes in Andraste because there's no actual proof of her deeds
Her deeds are better documented in this setting, more believable and her organization is of religious nature and not a secular warrior order.
[...]
You are misremembering things. Nobody knew shit about Grey Warden rituals. Nobody knew that they drink Darkspawn blood while their cowardly initiates are murdered to keep it secret. Nobody knew that you can't kill the Archdaemon without Grey Wardens sacrificing themselves. Nobody knew where their talents come from, and so it was assumed that they are bullshiting. It's why Loghain didn't believe Duncan that Archdaemon is here and it's actual Blight. When asked about how does he know, all Duncan could respond was "I just, like, feeel it maaan, you wouldn't get it". How can you treat someone like this seriously in matters of war?
>Fantasy worlds still have internal consistency
And yeah, and in this one the Wardens winning the Blights is historical record >Their mages are working on understanding it
That doesn't answer the question >Because of historical precedents in this setting
Why does that give any legitimacy? >No they don't
Yeah, they do. >No, it's part of legends
It's historical fact. >there is no reason to believe why they are needed.
Because they were the reason for the Blights to be defeated? Even if one is so moronic to the point where he can't see the common elements, then why wouldn't you not want the foremost experts in killing Darkspawn to kill Darkspawn? It's likely going >Why do I need a builder? I can totally build a castle by myself >Why do I need a farmer? I can grow crops even if I've never done it
It's really, really stupid and short sighted. >There is
Proof? >Grey Wardens are international organization siphoning money from and enjoying privileges in multiple countries, while not providing any proof as to why they are required
The 4 Blights are the proof. Your argument is asking why is there firefighters if nothing is on fire right now. Why build a roof if it isn't raining now? >Her deeds are better documented in this setting
They aren't >More believable
Nope. There's no proof of the Maker. >and her organization is of religious nature and not a secular warrior order
The Chantry has an entire warrior order and their nature isn't relevant because Darkspawn exist, so it's not a matter of faith
>And yeah, and in this one the Wardens winning the Blights is historical record
They were part of armies fighting against Darkspawn and that's it. No actual reason why they are mandatory, because this actual reason was intentionally kept secret by the Grey Wardens themselves >That doesn't answer the question
It does. Magic is real and they are working on understanding it. They don't just believe into it without a proof >Why does that give any legitimacy?
Because your parents lived like this as well and you will be hanged if you start spreading commie bullshit that undermines authority >Yeah, they do.
Nope >It's historical fact.
No, it's all legends from ancient times >Because they were the reason for the Blights to be defeated?
There is no reason for anyone to believe it. They were parts of those conflicts and that's it. No justification as to why they are mandatory >then why wouldn't you not want the foremost experts in killing Darkspawn to kill Darkspawn?
There are a handful of GW in Ferelden where they are disliked. They are not a sizeable force that would make any change in normal battle. >Proof?
Leader of Grey Wardens is said to be opportunistic, indulging in politics and spreading Order's influence by any means >Your argument is asking why is there firefighters if nothing is on fire right now
If there were only ever 4 fires in history then in fact every country having firefighters everywhere would be an overkill >They aren't
They are because consequences of her actions have direct result to the day where game is set >There's no proof of the Maker.
Her actions are believable, not Maker. Maker is a spiritual case >The Chantry has an entire warrior order
And they are mandatory to keep mages in check with powers that actually and visibly work. Grey Warden are seemingly just normal troops that kill Darkspawn which everyone can do it. And Darkspawn bother Dwarfs most of the time and sit underground and not humans.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Grey Wardens are Warrior Order recruiting from criminals, which is disliked, not trusted and deemed unnecessary
Except not?
They're well respected to the point where people change their attitude the minute they're informed you're a Grey Warden.
Literally everyone sees them as great warriors, even Sten heard it. Duncan also gets preferential treatment whenever he goes, be in the house of a Teyrn or Orzammar. >White Walkers
Are seen as a myth. Darkspawn are a very real provable fact. >There is no such thing
Yes there is. Why do you insist on talking about this subject which you known nothing about.
Dumat was the first archdemon and he was slain in 992 TE in the Silent Plains. The armor of the Warden who slew him was recovered, then lost.
They have battle records, names of those involved, it's all historical fact in a fantasy world where the literacy rate is higher than normal
2 months ago
Anonymous
>They're well respected to the point where people change their attitude the minute they're informed you're a Grey Warden.
They had government mandated privileges until Loghain took power. Some like them, some don't, others don't care. In Ferelden they are disliked in general and historically abandoned neutrality to take part in rebellion. And according to Loghain, they did it again. >Darkspawn are a very real provable fact.
But there is no proof as to why they are needed. Grey Wardens being required to stop the Blight, which barely happens, is part of the myth. It's just a legend. >Yes there is. Why do you insist on talking about this subject which you known nothing about.
Because I'm right. Because that's how Bioware chose to present it and it's how they justified Loghain stance on Wardens. Grey Wardens were part of military efforts to stop previous Blights, but nothing about that was a proof they are mandatory. Some like Cailan jerked off their legends, which annoyed pragmatics like Loghain
2 months ago
Anonymous
>They had government mandated privileges
Actually they have ancient treaties agreed upon. And that doesn't affect their reputation as great warriors which is a thing. >In Ferelden they are disliked in general
Except they aren't util Loghain blamed them for killing Cailan. Duncan a well received everywhere he goes. >But there is no proof as to why they are needed.
There's no single reason, the proof is the history. >Blight, which barely happens
It's a monumental event regardless. World Wars barely happen, yet the two that did changed the world more than any other conflict and avoiding a third also did >It's just a legend.
It's a historical fact. >Because I'm right.
Except that you aren't. That's why you can't prove anything. I can quote and link the Codex entries in Origins and Awakening detailing the Grey Wardens, whereas you can't do anything except repeat easily disproved nonsense
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Actually they have ancient treaties agreed upon.
Yes, government privileges. >Except they aren't util Loghain blamed them for killing Cailan. Duncan a well received everywhere he goes.
Like when they rebelled? >There's no single reason, the proof is the history.
This doesn't provide a proof as to why they are mandatory. >It's a historical fact.
The fact that Archdaemon can't be killed without Wardens is only something Wardens know and the player. Blights and battles happened, but Grey Wardens legend can be exaggerated, which is what Loghain claims. >Except that you aren't. That's why you can't prove anything
Like what? What do you think I'm arguing? Grey Wardens never told anyone why they are required, which is why people like Loghain don't believe that they are required. It's a plot point, you learn about it near the end of the game after you free that one imprisoned Warden
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Yes, government privileges.
The Chantry isn't a government and neither are the Dalish >Like when they rebelled?
What does that have to do with what you said? Is Duncan not a welcomed guest everywhere? >This doesn't provide a proof as to why they are mandatory.
It provides precedent. Much like templars and mages. >which is what Loghain claims.
Loghain claims a bunch of crazy shit. He's lying to everyone and himself >The fact that Archdaemon can't be killed without Wardens is only something Wardens know
Except that Wardens have always delivered the final blow >Like what?
Like anything. Prove something's with in-game text. Your entire argument was that the Grey Wardens ending the Blights were "Legends" when they're recorded just like any other real battles
Even if people don't know why Wardens are needed, is a fact that they were needed for every Blight before
2 months ago
Anonymous
>The Chantry isn't a government and neither are the Dalish
Chantry is part of power structure and Dalish government structures also have treaties with you. >What does that have to do with what you said? Is Duncan not a welcomed guest everywhere?
No, he isn't. Which is why they complain that people don't respect them as much anymore >It provides precedent. Much like templars and mages.
Templars and mages exist in current times, Blight didn't for a long time >Loghain claims a bunch of crazy shit. He's lying to everyone and himself
But not about this. Wardens in fact not told anyone why they are needed. >Except that Wardens have always delivered the final blow
Just a coincidence, exaggerated in legends >Prove something's with in-game text.
Like when grandma talks about people forgetting of Warden's sacrifices in a youtube link I posted? >Even if people don't know why Wardens are needed, is a fact that they were needed for every Blight before
Coincidence is not enough for pragmatic men like Loghain. If he knew for a fact how this works, he would use someone else as a sacrificial lamb and not Grey Wardens.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Chantry is part of power structure
Still not a government >No, he isn't
Yes he is. He's a guest of the Teyrn, and honor guest of Orzammar during the provings, a human welcomed among the dalish, an outsider welcomed among the circle, Doors are opened to him whenever he goes. >Templars and mages exist in current times
So do Darkspawn >But not about this
Yes about this. Loghain is claiming tales about the Wardens are exaggerated whewn they're historical fact. >Just a coincidence
Lmao, sure. >Like when grandma talks about people forgetting of Warden's sacrifices in a youtube link I posted?
She's telling a parable. Saying "people may have forgotten" in reference to their reputation diminishing over lack of Blights doesn't change the factual record of them existing and Wardens being the reason they were stopped >Coincidence
Cause and consequence isn't coincidence. The Wardens didn't happen to be there, the First Blight raged for years until they stopped it, and all other Blights were stopped by them. That's as coincidental as smoke following fire. >If he knew for a fact how this works, he would use someone else as a sacrificial lamb and not Grey Wardens
Bullshit. Loghain was delusional, paranoid and self-centered. There's mountains of evidence of Howe being a monster and he never gave a shit because it was convinient to him
That's right: they'd already invaded a generation earlier, plundered Ferelden, and we're barely driven back. Loghain remembers their brutality and his hatred of them is wholly understandable. He's a very tragic antagonist and his motivations are pragmatic even if his methodology wasn't
>Grey wardens were needed to end every single Blight and succeeded in it
Game makes a point to mention that nobody ever knew why they are needed and all their historical victories look like an exaggerated propaganda from legends and myths
NTA, but did it? I've played the game so long ago I don't remember.
Also it just doesn't make much sense >hey, there are these warriors who can fight blightspawn super well, know the most about them and can sense their presence >uhhh,, why do we need them again during a blight?
>Game makes a point to mention that nobody ever knew why they are needed
It's a magical medieval fantasy world. Nobody knows shit >How does magic work >Why are we ruled by a king instead of anarcho-syndicate commune?
People accept things as a they come and the Grey Wardens being the reason Blights were stopped is an established fact >and all their historical victories look like an exaggerated propaganda from legends and myths
What? How? Is there a vast Grey Warden propaganda machine? That doesn't make any sense
It's like saying no one actually believes in Andraste because there's no actual proof of her deeds
>It's a magical medieval fantasy world. Nobody knows shit
Fantasy worlds still have internal consistency and characters in them take certain things as facts, while others as made up bullshit >How does magic work
Their mages are working on understanding it >Why are we ruled by a king instead of anarcho-syndicate commune?
Because of historical precedents in this setting >People accept things as a they come
No they don't. Everything always has to be justified and enforced >and the Grey Wardens being the reason Blights were stopped is an established fact
No, it's part of legends not everyone believes in because there is no reason to believe why they are needed. >What? How? Is there a vast Grey Warden propaganda machine?
There is and Grey Wardens are international organization siphoning money from and enjoying privileges in multiple countries, while not providing any proof as to why they are required and not being actually needed for a long time >It's like saying no one actually believes in Andraste because there's no actual proof of her deeds
Her deeds are better documented in this setting, more believable and her organization is of religious nature and not a secular warrior order.
>nobody ever knew why they are needed
They were people who were chosen to see if they were of the kind able to fight the physical corruption of the blight to the level needed to be able to battle darkspawn on the regular. That is why they underwent the test. That test was with a poison that could indicate if they were capable. Ultimately they were only able to put it off for a while, as by a certain age, they would succumb no matter what. So a warden would put his affairs in order and go to the deep roads to fight the darkspawn until death.
I mean frick, I hate this franchise with a passion and even I know this.
You are misremembering things. Nobody knew shit about Grey Warden rituals. Nobody knew that they drink Darkspawn blood while their cowardly initiates are murdered to keep it secret. Nobody knew that you can't kill the Archdaemon without Grey Wardens sacrificing themselves. Nobody knew where their talents come from, and so it was assumed that they are bullshiting. It's why Loghain didn't believe Duncan that Archdaemon is here and it's actual Blight. When asked about how does he know, all Duncan could respond was "I just, like, feeel it maaan, you wouldn't get it". How can you treat someone like this seriously in matters of war?
2 months ago
Anonymous
Most people may have forgotten, but not all, and Warden manuscripts still existed.
Jesus Christ, why am I even arguing about this? They're shit games. Ok, sure, you're right about absolutely everything and I am obviously quoting from, shit I dunno, Naked Lunch? Yeah that it, Naked Lunch: Lord of Rings Edition. Don't @ me with one of your quote bombs. I feel soiled even thinking about this stupid shit.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Fantasy worlds still have internal consistency
And yeah, and in this one the Wardens winning the Blights is historical record >Their mages are working on understanding it
That doesn't answer the question >Because of historical precedents in this setting
Why does that give any legitimacy? >No they don't
Yeah, they do. >No, it's part of legends
It's historical fact. >there is no reason to believe why they are needed.
Because they were the reason for the Blights to be defeated? Even if one is so moronic to the point where he can't see the common elements, then why wouldn't you not want the foremost experts in killing Darkspawn to kill Darkspawn? It's likely going >Why do I need a builder? I can totally build a castle by myself >Why do I need a farmer? I can grow crops even if I've never done it
It's really, really stupid and short sighted. >There is
Proof? >Grey Wardens are international organization siphoning money from and enjoying privileges in multiple countries, while not providing any proof as to why they are required
The 4 Blights are the proof. Your argument is asking why is there firefighters if nothing is on fire right now. Why build a roof if it isn't raining now? >Her deeds are better documented in this setting
They aren't >More believable
Nope. There's no proof of the Maker. >and her organization is of religious nature and not a secular warrior order
The Chantry has an entire warrior order and their nature isn't relevant because Darkspawn exist, so it's not a matter of faith
2 months ago
Anonymous
>And yeah, and in this one the Wardens winning the Blights is historical record
They were part of armies fighting against Darkspawn and that's it. No actual reason why they are mandatory, because this actual reason was intentionally kept secret by the Grey Wardens themselves >That doesn't answer the question
It does. Magic is real and they are working on understanding it. They don't just believe into it without a proof >Why does that give any legitimacy?
Because your parents lived like this as well and you will be hanged if you start spreading commie bullshit that undermines authority >Yeah, they do.
Nope >It's historical fact.
No, it's all legends from ancient times >Because they were the reason for the Blights to be defeated?
There is no reason for anyone to believe it. They were parts of those conflicts and that's it. No justification as to why they are mandatory >then why wouldn't you not want the foremost experts in killing Darkspawn to kill Darkspawn?
There are a handful of GW in Ferelden where they are disliked. They are not a sizeable force that would make any change in normal battle. >Proof?
Leader of Grey Wardens is said to be opportunistic, indulging in politics and spreading Order's influence by any means >Your argument is asking why is there firefighters if nothing is on fire right now
If there were only ever 4 fires in history then in fact every country having firefighters everywhere would be an overkill >They aren't
They are because consequences of her actions have direct result to the day where game is set >There's no proof of the Maker.
Her actions are believable, not Maker. Maker is a spiritual case >The Chantry has an entire warrior order
And they are mandatory to keep mages in check with powers that actually and visibly work. Grey Warden are seemingly just normal troops that kill Darkspawn which everyone can do it. And Darkspawn bother Dwarfs most of the time and sit underground and not humans.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>They were part of armies
They literally commanded those armies and a member of the order killed the archdemon every single time. You're delusional. >It does.
It doesn't >Magic is real
So are the Darkspawn and the Blights >And they are working on understanding
How does it work then? >Because your parents lived like this
And? You're just accepting the situation because that's how it goes, literally what I said and you denied >Nope
Yep >No, it's all legends from ancient times
Nope, literal recorded fact. >There is no reason for anyone to believe it.
Believe what? It's a fact. >They were parts of those conflicts and that's it.
They organized the resistance, commanded the armies and killed the archdemons >They are not a sizeable force that would make any change in normal battle.
Except the Grey Wardens have always been a small, elite force that's essential to fighting the Darkspawn and made all the difference >Leader of Grey Wardens is said to be opportunistic, indulging in politics and spreading Order's influence by any means
Hearsay isn't proof. >If there were only ever 4 fires in history then in fact every country having firefighters everywhere would be an overkill
But those 4 fires are disastrous and world ending and they don't have Wardens in evey country nor are their numbers great >They are because consequences of her actions have direct result to the day where game is set
They aren't, there's different accounts (unlike for the Wardens) and ending the Blights also had consequences >Her actions are believable
They really aren't. Barbarian woman defeats the worlds largest empire b because some god talked with her? Nonsense >And they are mandatory to keep mages in check
Why are they mandatory? >with powers that actually and visibly work
What like Grey Wardens sending Darkspawn and always killing the archdemons? What proof do you have that templars powers work?
2 months ago
Anonymous
>They literally commanded those armies and a member of the order killed the archdemon every single time. >Nope, literal recorded fact. >Believe what? It's a fact. >They organized the resistance, commanded the armies and killed the archdemons >Except the Grey Wardens have always been a small, elite force that's essential to fighting the Darkspawn and made all the difference >But those 4 fires are disastrous and world ending and they don't have Wardens in evey country nor are their numbers great >What like Grey Wardens sending Darkspawn and always killing the archdemons? What proof do you have that templars powers work? >They aren't, there's different accounts (unlike for the Wardens) and ending the Blights also had consequences
Well, then tell it to Loghain, Howe and others who don't believe into Grey Wardens being mandatory. Which you can actually do in game and prove him wrong, once he gets btfo like other nonWardens in previous Blights.
>It doesn't
It does >How does it work then?
Ask the mages who keep working magic and studying it >And? You're just accepting the situation because that's how it goes, literally what I said and you denied
You are accepting the situation because you don't want to hang, meanwhile Grey Wardens happened to fight in Blight wars, but there is no justification why it can't be done without them. Which is the reason Loghain uses >Hearsay isn't proof.
It's why he enjoys you getting an independent from kingdom fief for a personal use, because it drastically expands Order power, despite being a political move >They really aren't. Barbarian woman defeats the worlds largest empire b because some god talked with her? Nonsense
She starts a rebellion and there is nothing weird about it toppling the Empire given it was in fact toppled. >Why are they mandatory?
Because they display anti-magical powers with which they frick over mages >What proof do you have that templars powers work?
They use them every time to capture and contain mages.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Well, then tell it to Loghain, Howe and others who don't believe into Grey Wardens being mandatory
You do. The point being that them not believing te obvious is delusional/deception on their part >> It does
How? >Ask the mages who keep working magic and studying it
That's not an answer. >You are accepting the situation because you don't want to hang
a) Still accepting the situation, which you said people didn't do
b) You can accept the GW situation because you don't wanna get eaten by Darkspawn >Grey Wardens happened to fight
They commanded the fight and killed the archdemon in every single Blight >She starts a rebellion
And succeeds where no one had and hasn't ever since. She united disparate people that could hardly stand each other. She talked of a new God and gathered faithful from all places. Andraste's feats were never repeated, the Wardens at least did the same thing 4 times. >Because they display anti-magical powers
And Wardens display senses that can track Darkspawn >They use them every time to capture and contain mages
And Wardens are used everytime to defeat Blights
2 months ago
Anonymous
>The point being that them not believing te obvious is delusional/deception on their part
It's not obvious when there is no actual reason provided. Just because GWs managed to thrust a sword into an Archdeamon doesn't mean that others can't do it too. >How?
How it doesn't? >That's not an answer.
It is >a) Still accepting the situation, which you said people didn't do
I said that people don't accept situation just because, but they need a reason to. Like a threat of hanging >b) You can accept the GW situation because you don't wanna get eaten by Darkspawn
What are you even arguing here? How is this relevant? Nobody will complain if GW manage to kill Darkspawn. This doesn't prove that only they can do it. Dwarfs do it all the time and you are gathering an army of nonWardens to kill them anyway. This is why people don't know why they are mandatory >They commanded the fight and killed the archdemon in every single Blight
When it turned out that for some reason killing Archdaemon doesn't work, but that was ages ago, in something that is just a myth to people. Just like you do now. >And succeeds where no one had and hasn't ever since.
There is nothing unbelievable about successful rebellion and a start of a new cult. >And Wardens display senses that can track Darkspawn
Wardens claiming to feel something isn't this same as Templars using powers to disable magic. Which is why Loghain claims bullshit when Duncan tells him about Archdeamon. >And Wardens are used everytime to defeat Blights
Just a coincidence
2 months ago
Anonymous
>It's not obvious when there is no actual reason provided
The reason is "they're the experts in this thing and have done it time and time again and it could never be done without them"
You not thinking that's enough for pretty much everyone is ridiculous. People accept that magic exists even if they can't explain every facet of it >How it doesn't?
You need to explain how it works >It is
It's not. >I said that people don't accept situation just because
Except they're accepting a King should rule over them just because it's how it was alwasy done >I said that people don't accept situation just because
What are you? GW are needed for Blights. That's it and everyone accepts it. >Dwarfs do it all the time
Dwarves have never defeated a Blight >When it turned out that for some reason killing Archdaemon doesn't work
Still happened >but that was ages ago
Yeah, 400 years, a long time, but not enought to get relegated to legend that no one believes it. To compare it to ASoIaF, Aegon landed 300 years ago, no one thinks he wasn't real. >There is nothing unbelievable about successful rebellion and a start of a new cult
Then why has it never happened before or since? >Wardens claiming to feel something isn't this same as Templars using powers to disable magic
Yeah it is. There's no visual effect for dispelling. You can just claim the magic failed on its own. You judged by it's effects, Templars say they dispell magic and magic is dispelled when they use their powers, Grey Wardens say they can sense darkspawn and lo and behold everytime they ssay there's darkspawn around, they find darkspawn. >Just a coincidence
Are you already this desperate?
>nobody ever knew why they are needed
They were people who were chosen to see if they were of the kind able to fight the physical corruption of the blight to the level needed to be able to battle darkspawn on the regular. That is why they underwent the test. That test was with a poison that could indicate if they were capable. Ultimately they were only able to put it off for a while, as by a certain age, they would succumb no matter what. So a warden would put his affairs in order and go to the deep roads to fight the darkspawn until death.
I mean frick, I hate this franchise with a passion and even I know this.
>recruit Loghain >marry Anora >keep Loghain alive with Morrigan ritual >he shows up in Awakening to tease you both about wanting grandkids and tells you to never ever make his daughter cry or he'll turn the army right back around and deal with you
I didn't like Awakening otherwise but this was nice
He's hardly a main antagonist, at least to anyone who isn't human noble, just a dick who betrayed his king because he couldn't stand the fr*nch over a world ending demon army.
>He's hardly a main antagonist
He quite literally is the main antagonist of the game until you kill/recruit him at the landsmeet, where the archdemon takes over
>Army of corrupted monstrosities is invading, a well known existential threat >Nah gonna ignore it because a neighboring nation could be planning something
Was he moronic? I mean I get it, Orlais could be planning something, but I feel like an existential threat of a corrupted horde of monsters who want to destroy everything should be a bit higher on a priority list
TBF, it seems totally in character for Orlais to lay back and let Ferelden take the body blow of the Darkspawn invasion, then come in and take over once Ferelden is badly weakened.
>Army of corrupted monstrosities is invading, a well known existential threat >Nah gonna ignore it because a neighboring nation could be planning something
Was he moronic? I mean I get it, Orlais could be planning something, but I feel like an existential threat of a corrupted horde of monsters who want to destroy everything should be a bit higher on a priority list
I dunno, does Sigil even have laws outside of like Harmonium? What was he doing in a bar anyways? I don't remember it being explain why he was just chilling there
2 months ago
Anonymous
I think it might have been something weird like the pub was built around him because he provided warmth, but don't quote me, it's been fricking years since I played it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Me too, I just remember that he was in the middle of a pub when we recruited it
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah he was. There wasn't much of a description as such as he has been there for so long nobody even remembered why or how. The pub just kind of got built up around him is how I rememberer it.
I actually looked that up because I do not remember him being evil. He was unstable, but did no harm willingly. He was simply unhinged, and for good reason. His existence was unimaginable pain.
Ignus was just psychotic. He wasn't evil because he wasn't really capable of making those kind of choices.
Exactly. This guy knows.
Setting a whole city block on fire for shits and giggles isn’t evil?
> Shits n Giggles
That's something he was simply unable to do, or feel. Play the game. His alignment was given to him for good reason.
I like Loghain as a character but if you didn't make Alistair fight him for thematic reasons then I don't know what's wrong with you. In a sense you and Alistair are doing exactly the same Loghain and Maric did in the past, organizing an army to defend Ferelden from a external threat. You are Alistair's Loghain. Alistair fighting and winning is of a proof of his breed as Maric's son.
>if you didn't make Alistair fight him for thematic reasons then I don't know what's wrong with you
I need him to marry the blonde queen with the nice rack
Yeah, but Ferelden is heading for a succession crisis anyway
Alistair is probably infertile and will die give or take 30 years anyway
I like to do it more because they compliment each other as rulers so well
Alistair didn't really show that he'd be a competent king, he was mostly being used as a puppet. My character had his own goals like his family and revenge I didn't care about working to put Alistair on the throne when marrying Anora was a much better idea and my character and her would do a much better job ruling the country.
Anora has no power and is just coping by calling you like this. Even in awakening your title changes and in DA2 your character is openly called king.
Frankly, it's annoying that you have to even marry her to take the throne. She is just a daughter of a former peasant turned traitor, while you are from the second most powerful and noble family in the realm, with allies everywhere in form of elves and dwarfs to mages and templars and nobles and peasants of this land owing you personal favors, while simultaneously having backing of Grey Wardens and getting Amaranthine as your personal fief.
Bro, she's the one sitting on the throne while you're playing Arl in Amaranthine
You're coping >She is just a daughter of a former peasant turned traitor
Yeah, but she is the Queen regardless and popular in the Landsmeet
Anora was the one actually doing the boring job of governing and being good at it, since she's already queen it just works out better for everyone to have to marry her since it would look like a coup otherwise.
>Main antagonist from the first game that genocided half of the remaining world population comes back in sequel for her redemption arc as a companion that can be romanced >Despite being on the side of good, she is still a maniac >has the best ending
No game will ever surpass ar tonelico 2 in my heart.
The Elven equivalent of Hitler from Arcanum. He is set up as the villain throughout the whole game, but when you finally confront him you realize he had nothing to do with all the shit that has been going on, Not only has he been accepting his imprisonment for his original crimes and has seen the error of his old ways, but he also joins you to take down the secret true villain.
>can get him to admit he's the one who started the fire and tried to kill you >just plays it off like it's no big deal and hey, you know how it is and you did great killing that werewolf, huh
He is such a dick and it's hilarious.
>one of your characters leave if you recruit him because the narratives of all karma system games seem incapable of fathoming a main character using the villain only to kill them when they are no longer useful
>Lohgain joins you >turns out he’s a total bro and a better comrade than the others and only did everything out of a misguided desire to protect Ferelden
>did everything out of a misguided desire to protect Ferelden
Doesn't really justifies anything
And a good portion of it wasn't even that he wanted to save Ferelden, but that he thought that he alone was the only one that could and should
Speaking of Baldur's Gate, Siege of Dragonspear is such a fascinating thing to me
On paper is something I'd want every company to do. Instead of trying to remake games in newfangled engines and with new people, they focus on making a genuine sequel the classic on its own terms. They even have the care to get all the same voice actors from before because they're so integral to these beloved characters
Then they frick up with shitty writing, virtue signaling and new characters not wanted or asked for
yeah, Beamdogs are a strange company. They started with BG and for some reason decided that they need to fill this game with troons. After which they received a backlash so hard, that even today people remember them mostly by "i was born as a man, but deep down felt like a woman".
Which is strange, since their enhancment of Planescape and Neverwinter Nights is great.
yeah, Beamdogs are a strange company. They started with BG and for some reason decided that they need to fill this game with troons. After which they received a backlash so hard, that even today people remember them mostly by "i was born as a man, but deep down felt like a woman".
Which is strange, since their enhancment of Planescape and Neverwinter Nights is great.
their problem was that they were a parasitic company from day 1 and never tried to spread their wings until it was too late.
SoD should have been a completely separate game and a test run to see if they could work without a crutch.
Latching on to Baldur's Gate just made it all the more obvious how inept they were when the training wheels finally came off, and their original content couldn't be handwaved.
What's truly funny is that it's painfully obvious that they were trying to label themselves as the New Baldur's Gate Guys with the ultimate goal of getting the rights to BG3, but their frick up was so embarrassing that Larian got the job instead.
If you pick some fairly specific choices throughout, it's possible to have Alistair still marry Anora and become king after he leaves your party. However games ending still acts more like of a variation of the "Queen Anora" ending.
I agree with you though. Loghain is scum and absolutely doesn't deserve to be in the party over Alistair. The only reason to pick him at all is so you don't have to sacrifice anyone if you really hate the idea of fricking Morrigan for some reason.
>if you really hate the idea of fricking Morrigan for some reason
Tbf. it's like a demonic ritual and she not only lied to you about why you got together but she cares about the ritual so much she immediately offers to frick someone else
>main antagonist is just looking for a good fight >dies >comes back from the dead in the DLC >Kills the DLC main antagonist because he would just get in the way of another good fight
>We could've had like one gorillion blender animations of Morrigan fricking her son >But DAI came out too soon so there's barely any and it's all sfm
Dammit
>But DAI came out too soon
That's not really a reason
Witcher 3 came out a year later and there's an abundance of porn still being made of it
Even ME has more of it being made than Dragon Age
The fact is that no one is attracted to the characters in Inquisition nad most people have been fapping to Morrigan since 2009 so artists would feel it's repetitive to keep making porn of her
The stuff that still comes out is almost all absurd bimbo shit where someone raised up the butt and tit sliders to max and think that's porn. It just looks funny at best
The deuteragonist planned to murder the protagonist all along
Are their other examples of this? I've always liked the idea of being able to join the main antagonist in a RPG.
Marazhai in Rogue Trader
The evil Warlock of the first two/three acts in Neverwinter Nights 2.
amon jerro is a chad
Amon Jerro isn't evil
pretty sure he's hard LE. He literally has a hall full of devils and demons he's captured and uses them to fuel his campaign against the shadow boi.
Edelgard's route in 3 Houses, complete with evil Vizier right hand man. Rhea is just as evil as Edelgard but they won't let you side with her, she's even the final boss in the church route kek.
>spoiler
damn... that's actually pretty goofy. I thought the final boss in the church route would be edelgard. I've only played edelgard's route to completion, stopped halfway through Dimitri's route, one day I'll finish it.
while I agree that Rhea is pretty fricking shitty, especially when it comes to how she views you, I really don't think it's comparable to kidnapping and killing school children, killing your father, and starting a continent wide war because the mole people gaslit her into thinking the church that preaches equality is the bad guy
May as well have been a completely different character from his BG1 self. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but Throne of Bhaal Sarevok was completely different.
>being able to join the main antagonist in a RPG
Except that's not what happens, Loghain joins your party, you don't join him, very different
The main villain of that game is Phillipa.
Pretty sure it's Nilfgaard
And Phillipa joins you in the sequel.
>Viper School is famous for being sneaky and using poison
>Their most famous member is built like a brick shithouse, probably most jacket character in all games
I do not understand
Fair but we did see him being sneaky like when he killed Foltest during the start of the second game.
>probably most jacked character in all games
I don't think it's even a probably. Even the strongmen from 2 aren't as big as him
It's weird that no one comments on it (Geralt does once calling him the largest dude he's even seen) but everyone should be saying something
Foltest should've seen this blind monk that's the size of a battering ram and maybe thought something was off
>Foltest should've seen this blind monk that's the size of a battering ram and maybe thought something was off
this is the funniest one to me
>hey, this nice, wholesome monk who spent his life reading books is built like a fricking absolute brickhouse of a gigachad
>yep, nothing wrong with that
To me it seemed like those Ganker videos when an absolute beast is hiding in a hoodie and you don't really realize it until it's off. No different from a monk's robe, clothes are very deceiving.
Footers was caught off guard trying to make sure his dingus children were safe
>All the DEXgays from the school got btfo'd
>Only the STRchad remains
Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
He was hidden in plain sight.
he's just THAT good at being sneaky
His actual camouflage is that everyone looks at him and assumes he is a moronic meathead instead of a cool collected manipulator.
Well you'd never expect a giant meathead be a cunning assassin now would you?
>main antagonist can join the party
Chrono Trigger
>can join the main antagonist
Infamous 2 and Black Ops: Cold War
Just a few games that immediately come to mind.
Evil runs in bg3 join the cult if absolute and then replace the dead three
Der Langrisser is amazing for this. You have plenty of routes in that game one the normal hero route, others slight adjustments to the same route one route in which
you join the empire after getting the holy sword, and another where you take the sword for yourself, join no side, and just deal with everything and everyone for your own ends to the point where you go to heaven and tell your ancestors to piss off, another where you join the chaosgay monster lord guy
Shadowrun: Dragonfall, but only in the end unfortunately
This was kino, turning your own party members into the final boss(Except your dog, who sticks with you)
BG2 had a great one but BG3 fricked his shit up. Unfortunate.
>turns out you were working for the main antagonist all along
this is much better
>turns out you were the main antagonist all along
ftfy
>wolfenstein series
Too gimmicky
I wanted Meredith in my squad. Although she is not an antagonist.
yeah, whent he antagonist is going to join the party but you get to fricking kill him instead.
I killed loghain and I killed Magus. Every time the option is offered I will take it. You don't get to run around being evil and causing untold horrors only just to turn around and try to help. Frick all the way off.
depends, it can work if it makes sense that you need help and you have a common enemy
I usually let Magus help but kill Loghain
The difference is in goals and consequences. Magus' goal was ALWAYS the same as the party's, killing Lavos. He took a reprehensible path to getting there but he thought it was the only option available to him, trapped in the middle ages as he was, and especially with the death of Crono there is no reason not to recruit him as you have the same enemy and you are needing as much firepower as possible.
Loghain's goal was never the Darkspawn, or at least it was not his main goal. Loghain foolishly mistook Orlais for a bigger threat and torn Ferelden in half trying to unite them against the perceived threat to the west while ignoring the very obvious, growing one in the south. His efforts actively weakened the country and made the Darkspawn that much more dangerous in the end. What's worse, there is no way to recruit Loghain without alienating and possibly even killing Alistair, a steadfast companion who's been with you since the start of the game. Magus doesn't cost you anything.
If you make Alistair marry Anora, recruit Loghain, don't do the ritual and sacrifice Loghain, Alistair essentially says "huh, that all worked out. Good job!" to you at the party.
That said I usually recruit him and do the ritual. He fricked up everything but once he's proven wrong he accepts he fricked up and does what he can to make things right. Also it's cool seeing him again in Inquisition.
There's a pretty kino line if you tell Loghain not to sacrifice himself in Origins. Makes the Inquisition choice better too
Loghain makes sense if your character got forced or tricked into joining the Wardens and shortening your life with Alistair happily taking part in this so you don't give a frick about making him king. Also if you plan on marrying Anora so it's all win-win.
>The starting party member can frick off and be a boss later
badly written character
If they keep their personality and their strength, no, there is not.
Especially when you'd think there was never a chance they would join.
never recruited logain cuz he is a major gay. is he good/fun?
basically a replacement alistair but I like his dialogue and he has some extra lines if you marry his daughter
ABSOLUTELY NOT RIORDAN
THIS MAN HUNTED US DOWN LIKE ANIMALS
HE IMPRISONED AND TORTURED YOU
I WILL NOT STAND WITH THIS MAN AS A BROTHER
I WON'T
Party members seething at recruiting the antagonist will never not be great.
recruiting Loghain makes sense
why would you ever pick up a Dark Eldar?
Lack of self respect
Enemy of my enemy scenario, he has useful info, is great in a fight, annoys all the dogmatic companions, has a great sense of humor and also he's hot and you can frick him.
Only fits a very specific personality of a narcissistic, opportunistic scoundrel that wants to have an exotic pet and doesn't care for consequences. Dogmatic, Iconoclast, Sensible and Heretic characters should kill him.
he actually isn't more of a problem than most of the other party members
amusingly there's even extra dialogue for iconoclast romance
>he actually isn't more of a problem than most of the other party members
Maybe, but I couldn't justify recruiting him with my character anyway. Him not being as bad once you recruit is meta knowledge
my character figured he had no other options so he'd be manageable but yeah it's fair that most characters wouldn't do it
Heinrix wasn't even seething there, he was just correct. There was actually no good justification for recruiting Marazhai. Just a nonsensical conceit of the videogame to allow you to do that.
dude dodge tanked the entire yremeryss fight because I didn't have Abelard so that was ending up being a great idea
Is Rogue Trader playable now? I've heard it was a buggy piece of shit and there was no way to 100% it without fixing everything yourself using toybox.
Is it still the case? I was looking forward to that game
Yeah, it's had all the major bugs fixed, they also added some content and voiceacting for the prologue.
I don't know. I last time played it in January
there was a huge patch in february
no amount of bugfixes could salvage the unfinished second half of the game
still hoping the dlcs will help with that
Its very playable, though beware that the last two acts are extremely barren.
I'm a fan of Owlcat titles, that shit is just natural to me now.
Its pretty extreme even by Owlcat standards. Though its still worth playing, especially for the first two acts. Act 3 is also pretty cool.
nta and for what it's worth there at least don't seem to be any game ruining bugs anymore, there have been new people posting in the RT general and no one's run into any so I think the latest patches fixed them
Are we talking Tyranny levels of barren?
Worse. There arent much to do outside of the main quests and the quest/world barely react at all to your choices, even when your choices should logically have a big impact on whats going on.
Though most/all the companions have pretty satisfying conclusions to their stories in the last two acts.
well it affects who allies with you for the gate fight which should narratively be a big deal it's just one battle in game terms
and then there's the heretic route for eufrates and all the different ways to solve companion quests
Dunno, seems better than act 3 in Tyranny, then again I don't think you CAN get more barren than that
Alright, doesn't seem too bad, kinda like WOTR after demon city or Kingmakers final act just being the House of Pain
I might just have a questionable memory, but i remembered Tyranny being less barren, though i cant say for certain.
Its first act was honestly pretty great, one of my favorites as far as CRPG's go, second didn't reach same heights but was alright, and then third act was like three missions I believe and you just choose whether or not betray Kyras or stay loyal to the overlord, and loyalty option was added later so it feels out of place because everyone during act 3 acts(eh?) like you are about to rebel
Its really bad
nta and i remember tyranny being way worse
really everything after you got the spire felt phoned in
Nta and no, definitely not that bad. There are some good quests the plot developments are just rushed and act 4 is like a third of the size of act 2 with act 5 being shorter than act 1.
>scary inquisitorial fed minder
>impotent seethe when you recruit not just any enemy of man, but one that has been irrefutably involved in sacking your own worlds
Owlhack should stick to stories others have written.
I mean the Inquisition including the guy's boss was allied with the drukhari and getting them to steal suns killing billions of people.
Ah, what a moronic, jumping the shark premise.
no, it makes sense in context
While there's justifications for recruiting Loghain, every point Alistair makes about it is correct
He's not at all valuable as a general
He's a c**t who did everything wrong until now
Not killing him is a personal insult to Alistair
>take the evil route
>good party members have a dramatic standoff where they try and stop you
That's why the Dark Side is bad in Kotor
It makes your saucy blue jailbait abandon you
? i had my slave wookie snap her neck
Extremely homosexual
I don't remember the name but there was a JRPG with an entire optional side route where you use a disguise and ambush your teammates slowly destroying their self esteem only to fully mindbreak them at the end when you reveal it was you all along before defeating them all at once in a "bossrush" style
I like it when you can convince the villainous companions to be nicer. Or at least not do anything evil. Redemption stories are best.
Sarevok was good for this
> All these nobody characters from slop games.
> Not the OG, and greatest of them all.
Pitiful.
yeah I just remembered him, BG2 was great
Indeed.
>canonically became bad again the moment Charname dissolved the party
Lol
is this a BG3 thing?
A WotC thing but yes, he's in BG3 too
And he impregnated his daughter
Pre-BG3 lore that BG3 uses as canon
Jon and his sister are still alive somehow too
And i think Imoen is alive centuries later as a vampire
BG3 is canon only in the literal sense. As far as a thematic spiritual successor, BG 1 and 2 have none. Larian is trash. BG3 is just corporate fanfic.
That's very true. He seemed like a different person entirely.
No. There were examples in the old SSI Gold Box AD&D games. Pretty sure there's earlier ones, too. It's an ancient trope going back further even than classical Greek myth.
Yes.
...my childhood 🙁
Wizards really seems to hate Baldur's Gate for some reason
Even for 3, they hand-picked Larian yet were so shit to work with, Swen doesn't want anything to do with them anymore
Wizards have been spiteful c**ts about BG1/2 for decades at this point.
Even from the start, their "official novelisation" had them hiring a writer who very blatantly just rewrote a few names of a story he'd already written.
Then they did shit like have chaarname go out like a b***h to a random assassin (though they retconned this again later), ruined viconia and sarevok, retconned Irenicus and probably more.
The fact that Swen hates them enough to throw away what could be a money printer makes it clear they were dicks to work with even now, and they're probably even going to frick with BG3 down the line too.
I wonder why they are so anal about it, seems like a faithful recreation of the setting, can't be brand protection because it doesn't tarnish it much AND they have several official settings under DnD
I think
has the right of it.
They seem to just be unreasonably angry that a product not made by them is so popular.
It makes you wonder why the frick they even licensed it
That is a very odd thing to be mad about, since it popularizes your own products, but I suppose jealousy could make sense, even though I always figured big suit execs don't care about that stuff
The only other explanation I can think of is if they went Games Workshop levels of full moron, and deliberately fricked with any non tabletop adaptions to make sure they didn't supplant it.
Even GW realised that was moronic eventually, but Wizards seem to be even less competent so it's possible.
Why are they like this? Are they seriously just mad that the games were successful or what?
>Then they did shit like have chaarname go out like a b***h to a random assassin (though they retconned this again later), ruined viconia and sarevok, retconned Irenicus and probably more.
Yeah at this point I'm going to consider everything past BG2 non canon or an alternate timeline. They can't take my comfy memories of BG2, lol.
He didn't become bad. He became a pious custodian of bhaal's temple, rather than a conniving villain seeking to take over the world
BG3 is not canon to BG1 and BG2. It's canon to the novelization and Murder in Baldur's Gate.
dont care what "canon", troons write after BG2.
BG series ended with Throne of Bhaal. everything after is a cheap fanfic.
Not if he's dead, AMIRTE!
Loghain was an absolute moron and didn't deserve to live.
As a dwarf or mage I can sometimes rationalize this, but as a city elf or especially a human noble, I can't forgive this butthole and especially his fricking lieutenant Howe for fricking up Denerim and killing my family. I chop his head off every time
It does annoy me that you can never bring up these things to him
It makes the confrontation less personal
>grey wardens are scam lol
>gets warden'd
>death by archdemon
how's that for scam huh?
>b-b-b-but you'll make him hero
don't care lol, I still was leader of the gang who made it all possible, he was just throwaway pawn
>how's that for scam huh?
He couldn't know and Grey Wardens looked like a scam
there are plenty of history books and mages capable of explaining him what the frick is going on about grey warden, but he just preffered to seethe over some french gays
To be fair I hate frenchies too
Nobody knows why Grey Wardens are required, because they keep their rituals secret. From perspective of everyone else Grey Wardens being required might be just their propaganda. And Grey Wardens in Ferelden overstep their boundaries while at this same time looking like leeches on the nation and government, siphoning tax money and freeing criminals while doing fricking nothing. Since he needed a sacrificial lamb, they were perfect.
And he was right in not wanting foreign troops in his land, especially from hostile country, no matter what.
I mean it would make sense that he would think Grey Wardens were full of hot air, but only if THE BLIGHTED HORDE WASN'T LITERALLY RIGHT THERE WHEN HE BETRAYED THEM
He knew they were there, he could see them, he betrayal hinged on them being there, so ignorance of grey wardens purpose shouldn't be a thing
He assumed it's just another Darkspawn surfacing, because it's uncommon. And he further didn't believe Grey Wardens that they are actually needed.
Their troops would not be eager to leave once they were in country, it's a justified and logical stance to take, backed up by historical evidence and common sense, which is why even Machiavelli wrote of this centuries ago. Inviting foreign troops to your country is inviting trouble. Them not invading still by the time of DA:I is a meta knowledge
Yes, you can talk with granny about this. It's all legends and there are no actual records on how those ancient blights were defeated. For all that is known they could have been normally defeated in battles and Grey Wardens only got exaggerated in legends to make it a better story.
>It's all legends and there are no actual records on how those ancient blights were defeated
What? No it isn't. It's historical record. There's names, details, dates. Grey Wardens winning against the Blights is more concrete than anything Andraste did and literally no one questions her existing
Why do I have to even argue this? It's how this game was written. All of this is in it spelled out. It's why discount Macbeth acts like he does. Bioware stole Night's Watch from ASOIAF 1 to 1. Grey Wardens are Warrior Order recruiting from criminals, which is disliked, not trusted and deemed unnecessary (actually even worse than their mirror in ASOIAF). Tales about their purpose are not believed just like people don't believe, remember and care about Night's Watch duty against White Walkers. It's a huge plot point that people don't know Grey Warden's rituals and how they work. It shocks your character, Alistar and Loghain when you learn how to defeat Archdeamon.
There is no such thing, for all everyone knows those were just regular battles and Grey Wardens aren't needed. Any other force is enough
Grey Wardens are part of myths like in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDITFcHODk4
>Most people may have forgotten, but not all, and Warden manuscripts still existed.
And none of this shit justified Wardens being mandatory
>Don't @ me with one of your quote bombs
I refuse
>And none of this shit justified Wardens being mandatory
They were the only ones able to physically carry out the task. That is why that organization existed. Try playing the game you hyperventilating knob. I told you to frick off and not @ me. Learn to read as well while you're there.
>They were the only ones able to physically carry out the task. That is why that organization existed.
That's a meta knowledge people in setting don't take for granted. It's why characters in game, including Loghain, doubt their necessity. Every time Blight happens everyone thinks they can destroy them by normal means and then get btfo, just like Loghain. Then Grey Wardens succeed and nobody knows why because they refuse to tell. This is the plot point of the game. People don't know why Grey Wardens are needed.
>Try playing the game you hyperventilating knob
I played 3 times and last time in somewhere in 2019
>I told you to frick off and not @ me
And I will refuse to obey again
>Grey Wardens are Warrior Order recruiting from criminals, which is disliked, not trusted and deemed unnecessary
Except not?
They're well respected to the point where people change their attitude the minute they're informed you're a Grey Warden.
Literally everyone sees them as great warriors, even Sten heard it. Duncan also gets preferential treatment whenever he goes, be in the house of a Teyrn or Orzammar.
>White Walkers
Are seen as a myth. Darkspawn are a very real provable fact.
>There is no such thing
Yes there is. Why do you insist on talking about this subject which you known nothing about.
Dumat was the first archdemon and he was slain in 992 TE in the Silent Plains. The armor of the Warden who slew him was recovered, then lost.
They have battle records, names of those involved, it's all historical fact in a fantasy world where the literacy rate is higher than normal
>They're well respected to the point where people change their attitude the minute they're informed you're a Grey Warden.
They had government mandated privileges until Loghain took power. Some like them, some don't, others don't care. In Ferelden they are disliked in general and historically abandoned neutrality to take part in rebellion. And according to Loghain, they did it again.
>Darkspawn are a very real provable fact.
But there is no proof as to why they are needed. Grey Wardens being required to stop the Blight, which barely happens, is part of the myth. It's just a legend.
>Yes there is. Why do you insist on talking about this subject which you known nothing about.
Because I'm right. Because that's how Bioware chose to present it and it's how they justified Loghain stance on Wardens. Grey Wardens were part of military efforts to stop previous Blights, but nothing about that was a proof they are mandatory. Some like Cailan jerked off their legends, which annoyed pragmatics like Loghain
>They had government mandated privileges
Actually they have ancient treaties agreed upon. And that doesn't affect their reputation as great warriors which is a thing.
>In Ferelden they are disliked in general
Except they aren't util Loghain blamed them for killing Cailan. Duncan a well received everywhere he goes.
>But there is no proof as to why they are needed.
There's no single reason, the proof is the history.
>Blight, which barely happens
It's a monumental event regardless. World Wars barely happen, yet the two that did changed the world more than any other conflict and avoiding a third also did
>It's just a legend.
It's a historical fact.
>Because I'm right.
Except that you aren't. That's why you can't prove anything. I can quote and link the Codex entries in Origins and Awakening detailing the Grey Wardens, whereas you can't do anything except repeat easily disproved nonsense
>Actually they have ancient treaties agreed upon.
Yes, government privileges.
>Except they aren't util Loghain blamed them for killing Cailan. Duncan a well received everywhere he goes.
Like when they rebelled?
>There's no single reason, the proof is the history.
This doesn't provide a proof as to why they are mandatory.
>It's a historical fact.
The fact that Archdaemon can't be killed without Wardens is only something Wardens know and the player. Blights and battles happened, but Grey Wardens legend can be exaggerated, which is what Loghain claims.
>Except that you aren't. That's why you can't prove anything
Like what? What do you think I'm arguing? Grey Wardens never told anyone why they are required, which is why people like Loghain don't believe that they are required. It's a plot point, you learn about it near the end of the game after you free that one imprisoned Warden
>Yes, government privileges.
The Chantry isn't a government and neither are the Dalish
>Like when they rebelled?
What does that have to do with what you said? Is Duncan not a welcomed guest everywhere?
>This doesn't provide a proof as to why they are mandatory.
It provides precedent. Much like templars and mages.
>which is what Loghain claims.
Loghain claims a bunch of crazy shit. He's lying to everyone and himself
>The fact that Archdaemon can't be killed without Wardens is only something Wardens know
Except that Wardens have always delivered the final blow
>Like what?
Like anything. Prove something's with in-game text. Your entire argument was that the Grey Wardens ending the Blights were "Legends" when they're recorded just like any other real battles
Even if people don't know why Wardens are needed, is a fact that they were needed for every Blight before
>The Chantry isn't a government and neither are the Dalish
Chantry is part of power structure and Dalish government structures also have treaties with you.
>What does that have to do with what you said? Is Duncan not a welcomed guest everywhere?
No, he isn't. Which is why they complain that people don't respect them as much anymore
>It provides precedent. Much like templars and mages.
Templars and mages exist in current times, Blight didn't for a long time
>Loghain claims a bunch of crazy shit. He's lying to everyone and himself
But not about this. Wardens in fact not told anyone why they are needed.
>Except that Wardens have always delivered the final blow
Just a coincidence, exaggerated in legends
>Prove something's with in-game text.
Like when grandma talks about people forgetting of Warden's sacrifices in a youtube link I posted?
>Even if people don't know why Wardens are needed, is a fact that they were needed for every Blight before
Coincidence is not enough for pragmatic men like Loghain. If he knew for a fact how this works, he would use someone else as a sacrificial lamb and not Grey Wardens.
>Chantry is part of power structure
Still not a government
>No, he isn't
Yes he is. He's a guest of the Teyrn, and honor guest of Orzammar during the provings, a human welcomed among the dalish, an outsider welcomed among the circle, Doors are opened to him whenever he goes.
>Templars and mages exist in current times
So do Darkspawn
>But not about this
Yes about this. Loghain is claiming tales about the Wardens are exaggerated whewn they're historical fact.
>Just a coincidence
Lmao, sure.
>Like when grandma talks about people forgetting of Warden's sacrifices in a youtube link I posted?
She's telling a parable. Saying "people may have forgotten" in reference to their reputation diminishing over lack of Blights doesn't change the factual record of them existing and Wardens being the reason they were stopped
>Coincidence
Cause and consequence isn't coincidence. The Wardens didn't happen to be there, the First Blight raged for years until they stopped it, and all other Blights were stopped by them. That's as coincidental as smoke following fire.
>If he knew for a fact how this works, he would use someone else as a sacrificial lamb and not Grey Wardens
Bullshit. Loghain was delusional, paranoid and self-centered. There's mountains of evidence of Howe being a monster and he never gave a shit because it was convinient to him
>And he was right in not wanting foreign troops in his land, especially from hostile country, no matter what.
and yet as of DA:I this "hostile" country never invaded
That's right: they'd already invaded a generation earlier, plundered Ferelden, and we're barely driven back. Loghain remembers their brutality and his hatred of them is wholly understandable. He's a very tragic antagonist and his motivations are pragmatic even if his methodology wasn't
>He couldn't know
How? Grey wardens were needed to end every single Blight and succeeded in it
>Grey wardens were needed to end every single Blight and succeeded in it
Game makes a point to mention that nobody ever knew why they are needed and all their historical victories look like an exaggerated propaganda from legends and myths
NTA, but did it? I've played the game so long ago I don't remember.
Also it just doesn't make much sense
>hey, there are these warriors who can fight blightspawn super well, know the most about them and can sense their presence
>uhhh,, why do we need them again during a blight?
>Game makes a point to mention that nobody ever knew why they are needed
It's a magical medieval fantasy world. Nobody knows shit
>How does magic work
>Why are we ruled by a king instead of anarcho-syndicate commune?
People accept things as a they come and the Grey Wardens being the reason Blights were stopped is an established fact
>and all their historical victories look like an exaggerated propaganda from legends and myths
What? How? Is there a vast Grey Warden propaganda machine? That doesn't make any sense
It's like saying no one actually believes in Andraste because there's no actual proof of her deeds
>It's a magical medieval fantasy world. Nobody knows shit
Fantasy worlds still have internal consistency and characters in them take certain things as facts, while others as made up bullshit
>How does magic work
Their mages are working on understanding it
>Why are we ruled by a king instead of anarcho-syndicate commune?
Because of historical precedents in this setting
>People accept things as a they come
No they don't. Everything always has to be justified and enforced
>and the Grey Wardens being the reason Blights were stopped is an established fact
No, it's part of legends not everyone believes in because there is no reason to believe why they are needed.
>What? How? Is there a vast Grey Warden propaganda machine?
There is and Grey Wardens are international organization siphoning money from and enjoying privileges in multiple countries, while not providing any proof as to why they are required and not being actually needed for a long time
>It's like saying no one actually believes in Andraste because there's no actual proof of her deeds
Her deeds are better documented in this setting, more believable and her organization is of religious nature and not a secular warrior order.
You are misremembering things. Nobody knew shit about Grey Warden rituals. Nobody knew that they drink Darkspawn blood while their cowardly initiates are murdered to keep it secret. Nobody knew that you can't kill the Archdaemon without Grey Wardens sacrificing themselves. Nobody knew where their talents come from, and so it was assumed that they are bullshiting. It's why Loghain didn't believe Duncan that Archdaemon is here and it's actual Blight. When asked about how does he know, all Duncan could respond was "I just, like, feeel it maaan, you wouldn't get it". How can you treat someone like this seriously in matters of war?
Most people may have forgotten, but not all, and Warden manuscripts still existed.
Jesus Christ, why am I even arguing about this? They're shit games. Ok, sure, you're right about absolutely everything and I am obviously quoting from, shit I dunno, Naked Lunch? Yeah that it, Naked Lunch: Lord of Rings Edition. Don't @ me with one of your quote bombs. I feel soiled even thinking about this stupid shit.
>Fantasy worlds still have internal consistency
And yeah, and in this one the Wardens winning the Blights is historical record
>Their mages are working on understanding it
That doesn't answer the question
>Because of historical precedents in this setting
Why does that give any legitimacy?
>No they don't
Yeah, they do.
>No, it's part of legends
It's historical fact.
>there is no reason to believe why they are needed.
Because they were the reason for the Blights to be defeated? Even if one is so moronic to the point where he can't see the common elements, then why wouldn't you not want the foremost experts in killing Darkspawn to kill Darkspawn? It's likely going
>Why do I need a builder? I can totally build a castle by myself
>Why do I need a farmer? I can grow crops even if I've never done it
It's really, really stupid and short sighted.
>There is
Proof?
>Grey Wardens are international organization siphoning money from and enjoying privileges in multiple countries, while not providing any proof as to why they are required
The 4 Blights are the proof. Your argument is asking why is there firefighters if nothing is on fire right now. Why build a roof if it isn't raining now?
>Her deeds are better documented in this setting
They aren't
>More believable
Nope. There's no proof of the Maker.
>and her organization is of religious nature and not a secular warrior order
The Chantry has an entire warrior order and their nature isn't relevant because Darkspawn exist, so it's not a matter of faith
>And yeah, and in this one the Wardens winning the Blights is historical record
They were part of armies fighting against Darkspawn and that's it. No actual reason why they are mandatory, because this actual reason was intentionally kept secret by the Grey Wardens themselves
>That doesn't answer the question
It does. Magic is real and they are working on understanding it. They don't just believe into it without a proof
>Why does that give any legitimacy?
Because your parents lived like this as well and you will be hanged if you start spreading commie bullshit that undermines authority
>Yeah, they do.
Nope
>It's historical fact.
No, it's all legends from ancient times
>Because they were the reason for the Blights to be defeated?
There is no reason for anyone to believe it. They were parts of those conflicts and that's it. No justification as to why they are mandatory
>then why wouldn't you not want the foremost experts in killing Darkspawn to kill Darkspawn?
There are a handful of GW in Ferelden where they are disliked. They are not a sizeable force that would make any change in normal battle.
>Proof?
Leader of Grey Wardens is said to be opportunistic, indulging in politics and spreading Order's influence by any means
>Your argument is asking why is there firefighters if nothing is on fire right now
If there were only ever 4 fires in history then in fact every country having firefighters everywhere would be an overkill
>They aren't
They are because consequences of her actions have direct result to the day where game is set
>There's no proof of the Maker.
Her actions are believable, not Maker. Maker is a spiritual case
>The Chantry has an entire warrior order
And they are mandatory to keep mages in check with powers that actually and visibly work. Grey Warden are seemingly just normal troops that kill Darkspawn which everyone can do it. And Darkspawn bother Dwarfs most of the time and sit underground and not humans.
>They were part of armies
They literally commanded those armies and a member of the order killed the archdemon every single time. You're delusional.
>It does.
It doesn't
>Magic is real
So are the Darkspawn and the Blights
>And they are working on understanding
How does it work then?
>Because your parents lived like this
And? You're just accepting the situation because that's how it goes, literally what I said and you denied
>Nope
Yep
>No, it's all legends from ancient times
Nope, literal recorded fact.
>There is no reason for anyone to believe it.
Believe what? It's a fact.
>They were parts of those conflicts and that's it.
They organized the resistance, commanded the armies and killed the archdemons
>They are not a sizeable force that would make any change in normal battle.
Except the Grey Wardens have always been a small, elite force that's essential to fighting the Darkspawn and made all the difference
>Leader of Grey Wardens is said to be opportunistic, indulging in politics and spreading Order's influence by any means
Hearsay isn't proof.
>If there were only ever 4 fires in history then in fact every country having firefighters everywhere would be an overkill
But those 4 fires are disastrous and world ending and they don't have Wardens in evey country nor are their numbers great
>They are because consequences of her actions have direct result to the day where game is set
They aren't, there's different accounts (unlike for the Wardens) and ending the Blights also had consequences
>Her actions are believable
They really aren't. Barbarian woman defeats the worlds largest empire b because some god talked with her? Nonsense
>And they are mandatory to keep mages in check
Why are they mandatory?
>with powers that actually and visibly work
What like Grey Wardens sending Darkspawn and always killing the archdemons? What proof do you have that templars powers work?
>They literally commanded those armies and a member of the order killed the archdemon every single time.
>Nope, literal recorded fact.
>Believe what? It's a fact.
>They organized the resistance, commanded the armies and killed the archdemons
>Except the Grey Wardens have always been a small, elite force that's essential to fighting the Darkspawn and made all the difference
>But those 4 fires are disastrous and world ending and they don't have Wardens in evey country nor are their numbers great
>What like Grey Wardens sending Darkspawn and always killing the archdemons? What proof do you have that templars powers work?
>They aren't, there's different accounts (unlike for the Wardens) and ending the Blights also had consequences
Well, then tell it to Loghain, Howe and others who don't believe into Grey Wardens being mandatory. Which you can actually do in game and prove him wrong, once he gets btfo like other nonWardens in previous Blights.
>It doesn't
It does
>How does it work then?
Ask the mages who keep working magic and studying it
>And? You're just accepting the situation because that's how it goes, literally what I said and you denied
You are accepting the situation because you don't want to hang, meanwhile Grey Wardens happened to fight in Blight wars, but there is no justification why it can't be done without them. Which is the reason Loghain uses
>Hearsay isn't proof.
It's why he enjoys you getting an independent from kingdom fief for a personal use, because it drastically expands Order power, despite being a political move
>They really aren't. Barbarian woman defeats the worlds largest empire b because some god talked with her? Nonsense
She starts a rebellion and there is nothing weird about it toppling the Empire given it was in fact toppled.
>Why are they mandatory?
Because they display anti-magical powers with which they frick over mages
>What proof do you have that templars powers work?
They use them every time to capture and contain mages.
>Well, then tell it to Loghain, Howe and others who don't believe into Grey Wardens being mandatory
You do. The point being that them not believing te obvious is delusional/deception on their part
>> It does
How?
>Ask the mages who keep working magic and studying it
That's not an answer.
>You are accepting the situation because you don't want to hang
a) Still accepting the situation, which you said people didn't do
b) You can accept the GW situation because you don't wanna get eaten by Darkspawn
>Grey Wardens happened to fight
They commanded the fight and killed the archdemon in every single Blight
>She starts a rebellion
And succeeds where no one had and hasn't ever since. She united disparate people that could hardly stand each other. She talked of a new God and gathered faithful from all places. Andraste's feats were never repeated, the Wardens at least did the same thing 4 times.
>Because they display anti-magical powers
And Wardens display senses that can track Darkspawn
>They use them every time to capture and contain mages
And Wardens are used everytime to defeat Blights
>The point being that them not believing te obvious is delusional/deception on their part
It's not obvious when there is no actual reason provided. Just because GWs managed to thrust a sword into an Archdeamon doesn't mean that others can't do it too.
>How?
How it doesn't?
>That's not an answer.
It is
>a) Still accepting the situation, which you said people didn't do
I said that people don't accept situation just because, but they need a reason to. Like a threat of hanging
>b) You can accept the GW situation because you don't wanna get eaten by Darkspawn
What are you even arguing here? How is this relevant? Nobody will complain if GW manage to kill Darkspawn. This doesn't prove that only they can do it. Dwarfs do it all the time and you are gathering an army of nonWardens to kill them anyway. This is why people don't know why they are mandatory
>They commanded the fight and killed the archdemon in every single Blight
When it turned out that for some reason killing Archdaemon doesn't work, but that was ages ago, in something that is just a myth to people. Just like you do now.
>And succeeds where no one had and hasn't ever since.
There is nothing unbelievable about successful rebellion and a start of a new cult.
>And Wardens display senses that can track Darkspawn
Wardens claiming to feel something isn't this same as Templars using powers to disable magic. Which is why Loghain claims bullshit when Duncan tells him about Archdeamon.
>And Wardens are used everytime to defeat Blights
Just a coincidence
>It's not obvious when there is no actual reason provided
The reason is "they're the experts in this thing and have done it time and time again and it could never be done without them"
You not thinking that's enough for pretty much everyone is ridiculous. People accept that magic exists even if they can't explain every facet of it
>How it doesn't?
You need to explain how it works
>It is
It's not.
>I said that people don't accept situation just because
Except they're accepting a King should rule over them just because it's how it was alwasy done
>I said that people don't accept situation just because
What are you? GW are needed for Blights. That's it and everyone accepts it.
>Dwarfs do it all the time
Dwarves have never defeated a Blight
>When it turned out that for some reason killing Archdaemon doesn't work
Still happened
>but that was ages ago
Yeah, 400 years, a long time, but not enought to get relegated to legend that no one believes it. To compare it to ASoIaF, Aegon landed 300 years ago, no one thinks he wasn't real.
>There is nothing unbelievable about successful rebellion and a start of a new cult
Then why has it never happened before or since?
>Wardens claiming to feel something isn't this same as Templars using powers to disable magic
Yeah it is. There's no visual effect for dispelling. You can just claim the magic failed on its own. You judged by it's effects, Templars say they dispell magic and magic is dispelled when they use their powers, Grey Wardens say they can sense darkspawn and lo and behold everytime they ssay there's darkspawn around, they find darkspawn.
>Just a coincidence
Are you already this desperate?
>nobody ever knew why they are needed
They were people who were chosen to see if they were of the kind able to fight the physical corruption of the blight to the level needed to be able to battle darkspawn on the regular. That is why they underwent the test. That test was with a poison that could indicate if they were capable. Ultimately they were only able to put it off for a while, as by a certain age, they would succumb no matter what. So a warden would put his affairs in order and go to the deep roads to fight the darkspawn until death.
I mean frick, I hate this franchise with a passion and even I know this.
Was SMRPG first to do this?
No, not even close, hell chrono trigger literally came out a year before and it was made by the same company
>Is there a more kino trope?
Main theme plays during the final boss's last phase
>recruit Loghain
>marry Anora
>keep Loghain alive with Morrigan ritual
>he shows up in Awakening to tease you both about wanting grandkids and tells you to never ever make his daughter cry or he'll turn the army right back around and deal with you
I didn't like Awakening otherwise but this was nice
He's hardly a main antagonist, at least to anyone who isn't human noble, just a dick who betrayed his king because he couldn't stand the fr*nch over a world ending demon army.
>He's hardly a main antagonist
He quite literally is the main antagonist of the game until you kill/recruit him at the landsmeet, where the archdemon takes over
He hunts you down and caused you order to die in the battlefield
He also sells your people to slavery if you're a city elf
TBF, it seems totally in character for Orlais to lay back and let Ferelden take the body blow of the Darkspawn invasion, then come in and take over once Ferelden is badly weakened.
>Army of corrupted monstrosities is invading, a well known existential threat
>Nah gonna ignore it because a neighboring nation could be planning something
Was he moronic? I mean I get it, Orlais could be planning something, but I feel like an existential threat of a corrupted horde of monsters who want to destroy everything should be a bit higher on a priority list
>Was he moronic?
Nah, just deeply traumatized and possessing a gigantic ego
Games need to bring back evil companions in general.
I don't even know what kind of games you play seeing as even normalgay slop like BG3 has evil companions
But Ignus was chaotic neutral.
>Acts evil
>"but the character screen says he's neutral!"
I call plea for insanity
Sigil has the same laws as gotham city?
I dunno, does Sigil even have laws outside of like Harmonium? What was he doing in a bar anyways? I don't remember it being explain why he was just chilling there
I think it might have been something weird like the pub was built around him because he provided warmth, but don't quote me, it's been fricking years since I played it.
Me too, I just remember that he was in the middle of a pub when we recruited it
Yeah he was. There wasn't much of a description as such as he has been there for so long nobody even remembered why or how. The pub just kind of got built up around him is how I rememberer it.
I actually looked that up because I do not remember him being evil. He was unstable, but did no harm willingly. He was simply unhinged, and for good reason. His existence was unimaginable pain.
Exactly. This guy knows.
> Shits n Giggles
That's something he was simply unable to do, or feel. Play the game. His alignment was given to him for good reason.
Ignus was just psychotic. He wasn't evil because he wasn't really capable of making those kind of choices.
Setting a whole city block on fire for shits and giggles isn’t evil?
most games have them
That fricker from Fallout 3 has as much depth as a piece of paper. The other ones are at least interesting characters with good voice acting.
Which e-celeb gave you that opinion?
My favorite evil companions are the ones that look like stereotypical good companions.
I never let this traitor to the throne join the party.
He did NOTHING to prove that he was a good leader, let alone a good person. Executed him for his crimes at the landsmeet
I like Loghain as a character but if you didn't make Alistair fight him for thematic reasons then I don't know what's wrong with you. In a sense you and Alistair are doing exactly the same Loghain and Maric did in the past, organizing an army to defend Ferelden from a external threat. You are Alistair's Loghain. Alistair fighting and winning is of a proof of his breed as Maric's son.
>if you didn't make Alistair fight him for thematic reasons then I don't know what's wrong with you
I need him to marry the blonde queen with the nice rack
That too. Guess it also makes sense if you kill him. Frick.
I kinda wanna marry her by myself, but then Alistair doesn't get the throne
She's barren tho
Even Alistair's gigachad brother couldn't impregnate her
It's funny how the instant you cum inside Morrigan she gets pregnant but Anora still hasn't had a child a decade after DAO
morrigan is using magic though
She can still get pregnant if you romance her and reject the ritual
Yeah, but Ferelden is heading for a succession crisis anyway
Alistair is probably infertile and will die give or take 30 years anyway
I like to do it more because they compliment each other as rulers so well
>Alistair is probably infertile
He can literally have a kid with Morrigan
In a magical ritual
it's not clear, whatshisname the guy backing alistair was trying to get the king to dump anora and they probably weren't on great terms
Alistair didn't really show that he'd be a competent king, he was mostly being used as a puppet. My character had his own goals like his family and revenge I didn't care about working to put Alistair on the throne when marrying Anora was a much better idea and my character and her would do a much better job ruling the country.
Bro becomes "king consort" and he has the gall to talk about puppets
So? Anora by herself would already be a better ruler than Alistair.
Anora has no power and is just coping by calling you like this. Even in awakening your title changes and in DA2 your character is openly called king.
Frankly, it's annoying that you have to even marry her to take the throne. She is just a daughter of a former peasant turned traitor, while you are from the second most powerful and noble family in the realm, with allies everywhere in form of elves and dwarfs to mages and templars and nobles and peasants of this land owing you personal favors, while simultaneously having backing of Grey Wardens and getting Amaranthine as your personal fief.
Bro, she's the one sitting on the throne while you're playing Arl in Amaranthine
You're coping
>She is just a daughter of a former peasant turned traitor
Yeah, but she is the Queen regardless and popular in the Landsmeet
Anora was the one actually doing the boring job of governing and being good at it, since she's already queen it just works out better for everyone to have to marry her since it would look like a coup otherwise.
>trope
I hate this word. It's just a gayer way to say meme.
>main antagonist
>Main antagonist from the first game that genocided half of the remaining world population comes back in sequel for her redemption arc as a companion that can be romanced
>Despite being on the side of good, she is still a maniac
>has the best ending
No game will ever surpass ar tonelico 2 in my heart.
The Elven equivalent of Hitler from Arcanum. He is set up as the villain throughout the whole game, but when you finally confront him you realize he had nothing to do with all the shit that has been going on, Not only has he been accepting his imprisonment for his original crimes and has seen the error of his old ways, but he also joins you to take down the secret true villain.
>but when you finally confront him you realize he had nothing to do with all the shit that has been going on
except for hiring assassins to kill you and doing frickall to stop the blight, /misc/
Thats DAO not Arcanum.
This might be a lame example but you can recruit the evil god from that Cult Lamb game. He is even an immortal cult member.
this fukken guy
>if you kill him you can't bring back the main character
Shit game
>Game let's you simp for the main antagonist nonstop even while he's constantly trying to kill you
>can get him to admit he's the one who started the fire and tried to kill you
>just plays it off like it's no big deal and hey, you know how it is and you did great killing that werewolf, huh
He is such a dick and it's hilarious.
Slavish devotion actually works and he seems to come around to you
>main progonist can't join your party
playing as the antagonist and comboing homosexuals to death in a chokepoint
The edgy big sword guy from Granblue Relink.
>one of your characters leave if you recruit him because the narratives of all karma system games seem incapable of fathoming a main character using the villain only to kill them when they are no longer useful
>Lohgain joins you
>turns out he’s a total bro and a better comrade than the others and only did everything out of a misguided desire to protect Ferelden
>did everything out of a misguided desire to protect Ferelden
Doesn't really justifies anything
And a good portion of it wasn't even that he wanted to save Ferelden, but that he thought that he alone was the only one that could and should
Speaking of Baldur's Gate, Siege of Dragonspear is such a fascinating thing to me
On paper is something I'd want every company to do. Instead of trying to remake games in newfangled engines and with new people, they focus on making a genuine sequel the classic on its own terms. They even have the care to get all the same voice actors from before because they're so integral to these beloved characters
Then they frick up with shitty writing, virtue signaling and new characters not wanted or asked for
yeah, Beamdogs are a strange company. They started with BG and for some reason decided that they need to fill this game with troons. After which they received a backlash so hard, that even today people remember them mostly by "i was born as a man, but deep down felt like a woman".
Which is strange, since their enhancment of Planescape and Neverwinter Nights is great.
their problem was that they were a parasitic company from day 1 and never tried to spread their wings until it was too late.
SoD should have been a completely separate game and a test run to see if they could work without a crutch.
Latching on to Baldur's Gate just made it all the more obvious how inept they were when the training wheels finally came off, and their original content couldn't be handwaved.
What's truly funny is that it's painfully obvious that they were trying to label themselves as the New Baldur's Gate Guys with the ultimate goal of getting the rights to BG3, but their frick up was so embarrassing that Larian got the job instead.
>their frick up was so embarrassing that Larian got the job instead.
NuBioware being so shit at making RPGs they were passed over is also funny
I hope Wizards is moronic enough to consider them for the cashgrab sequel.
Bioware hasn't released a truly funny trashfire since andromeda
>you can join the main antagonist's party
>file not found
>It's another loghain/grey warden discussion
Should have used Sarevok for the OP....
>character is forgotten inmediately after he's introduced
I mean, people far more important to you than Ser Gilmore died that day
>Duncan's plan B
Wasn't he plan A?
No, that was you, but he settled for Gilmore because he wanted to avoid political trouble with your father
I haven't gotten to this part in Persona 5 (on the casino Palace and got it spoiled for me), but Akechi
>picking Logain over Alistair ever
Alistair is a bro. Sure he's a whiny b***h sometimes, but betraying him is something I can never do in this game
If you pick some fairly specific choices throughout, it's possible to have Alistair still marry Anora and become king after he leaves your party. However games ending still acts more like of a variation of the "Queen Anora" ending.
I agree with you though. Loghain is scum and absolutely doesn't deserve to be in the party over Alistair. The only reason to pick him at all is so you don't have to sacrifice anyone if you really hate the idea of fricking Morrigan for some reason.
>if you really hate the idea of fricking Morrigan for some reason
Tbf. it's like a demonic ritual and she not only lied to you about why you got together but she cares about the ritual so much she immediately offers to frick someone else
>bad guy joins party
>is way weaker compared to when he was a boss fight
homie you literally beat him to near death
Of course he's weaker
>antagonist from disc 1,2 and 3 saves you from final boss in disc 4
>main antagonist can join the party
...after the end of the game?
You can join main antagonist and kill your party members
>antagonist for most of game can be seen as an npc in an early town
Isn’t that just persona 4?
Also Pokemon Gen 1
>main antagonist is just looking for a good fight
>dies
>comes back from the dead in the DLC
>Kills the DLC main antagonist because he would just get in the way of another good fight
Hmmm
Demonic clussy
FFXIV has something like that but instead of killing the other antagonist we use them as a ride to fight the other antagonist
Baeloth in BG1 If you played black pits first, technically.
>DA is completely dead
>Even DA r34 is completely dead
>We could've had like one gorillion blender animations of Morrigan fricking her son
>But DAI came out too soon so there's barely any and it's all sfm
Dammit
>But DAI came out too soon
That's not really a reason
Witcher 3 came out a year later and there's an abundance of porn still being made of it
Even ME has more of it being made than Dragon Age
The fact is that no one is attracted to the characters in Inquisition nad most people have been fapping to Morrigan since 2009 so artists would feel it's repetitive to keep making porn of her
The stuff that still comes out is almost all absurd bimbo shit where someone raised up the butt and tit sliders to max and think that's porn. It just looks funny at best
The hell is that guy replying to himself with pasta for
Stop replying to the quote spamming. That gaylord is taking the piss. Stop falling for cheap tricks.