>most modern team-based games require DPS, healer and tank
>DPS is the only fun role
There is no reason the holy trinity should still exist in 2021. Nobody wants to play tank, and healer to a lesser extent. You either have too many DPS and get frustrated, or you play a role you don't like and get bored.
>inb4 some people like to play these roles
They are a tiny minority, and not enough to fulfil the demand. Most tanks and healers do it out of necessity.
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I agree it's better if there is no healing or tanking at all. You have to avoid damage by being skillful, and if you get hit too much RIP
It makes boss fights way more interesting, gotta react to what happens on the screen way more
gw2 tried no trinity
>their dungeons were shit without an aggro table
balance was so bad that they forcefully back tracked into a soft trinity for their first xpac
>their raids were shit still
The issue with trinity is that games don't offer enough rewards for people to play as tanks and healers, and people don't want responsabilities, so they gravitate towards dps because it's the job with less responsabilities in general.
the solution is simple: give better rewards to those willing to compromise and play jobs that require more attention, make these rewards associated with how good you play the job, so a competent healer will reap good rewards, while a lazy netflix semi afker will still get shit unless he improves.
just make the fricking rewards GOOD, not slightly better than being a dps, make em abysmally better!
same as a job
being a janitor requires less skill than a doctor so it pays less, if you're forced into being a doctor, you're at least getting paid good regardless if you like it or not.
Honestly just increase rewards for low pop classes on a server to increase incentives of people trying them out. Like give a class thats high in demand increased chances that the boss drops their gear or something along that line.
Gw2 actually does it pretty well without healer and tanks, though you still have the option to get a healer to make your run more comfy
Sure, giving more rewards would fix the population issue, but it wouldn't fix the gameplay. Anyone with the ability to introspect (which is a minority of players tbh) would eventually figure the rewards are worthless if they're not having fun. It's like daily quests, it makes you come back until you realize you're only doing it for the rewards and it feels more like a job than a game.
That introspection is a curse
>nobody wants to play tank
I do
Why did they kill pure support/debuffer roles? Make parties bigger again.
Replaced by a bunch of annoying consumables
Non healing support roles aren't part of the holy trinity for a reason.
Reason being? Is it because everything is instanced and debuffs don't matter because they've sped mmorpgs up too much?
Every other class archetype is derived from the 3 main classes.
Reason being they're not essential.
The ability to take damage, heal damage taken, and deal damage are the basic needs of a party. All non healing supports do is make the 3 holy trinity classes better at their job. Not having one makes you slightly less effiicient, but nowhere near to the extent not having a tank, healer, or any damage dealers does.
Even in the example you posted for FFXI, with the exception of some niche types of parties or content, your party isn't going to even get off the ground if you don't have a tank, a healer, or any damage dealers, but not having a bard, a corsair, or a red mage isn't going to stop your party from taking off if you can't get one of them.
Your party will be slow and run like a car with a flat tire if you don't have a Bard or Corsair. It's a shame modern mmo boss battles are faster than FFXI trash exp mob fights.
And your party will stall entirely like a broken down car if you don't have a tank, a healer, or damage dealers.
Bards and red mages could main heal fine, though?
Thing is you don’t need a paladin to be the one tanking. You could just as easily get by with a monk or warrior tank, or even a puppet or ninja. Yeah, people need to take on roles in a party but that doesn’t mean you need classes specifically dedicated to one role and one role only.
>Bards and red mages could main heal fine, though?
Then they're the healer. You know, one of the classes of the holy trinity.
>Thing is you don’t need a paladin to be the one tanking.
I never said anything about it needing to be a specific class, and hell when I played nine out of three tanks were ninjas.
The fact of the matter is you DO need someone to tank. You DO need someone to heal. You DO need someone to deal some actual damage.
You don't need someone that's only there to throw out buffs. That's why support is not part of the holy trinity.
Bear Shaman in AoC was fun
>beat the shit out of the enemy to heal and buff your group
AoC was whack in its own way.
>healer and mages are the strongest classes in the game (lore accurate)
>tempest of set will shit on you from a mile away while dishing out huge dps and heals
>only Assassins or Barbarians are capable of fricking up mages
>rest are stuck in a cuckshed
Support is too hard please understand, unless you see big numbahs the class is dumdum.
Bard in FFXI is both support and damage dealer.
imo there's more to it than just dps being the only fun role. a lot of the time dps is just the role with the lowest responsibility. people don't want to deal with the responsibility of tanking/healing which more directly lead to dying. most of the time there are always more dps in a group too so that further splits the responsibility.
Just make healers and tanks actually fun to play for once. Make their shit fricking GOOD. Being a healing monk in guild wars was actually fun. Being a priestess in priston tale was actually fun. Being a tank in terra was actually fun. You don’t need every class to be able to do everything, but simplifying classes down to a SINGLE thing is boring as hell. Though even playing a guild wars interrupt mesmer or something was at least satisfying. Classes in general these days are just super fricking boring by comparison.
It’s true in a way that healing, attacking, or defending is all you do in a game but thinking about these roles usually leads to horrible character design from developers. In a perfect world a developer would think of an interesting character idea and then balance it against the other characters later instead of oh shit we need to make another FPS.
basic npcs could handle tank and healer
dps is the only skill check and gameplay
The holy trinity is just a distillation of all the ways a player can interact with a game. It isn't some weird tradition that has locked us into it. It is intrinsic to PvE games.
thinking like this is why we're stuck with the trinity
If the interaction in the game is limited to taking damage, dealing damage, and healing damage, the modes of play will be locked to the trinity. You need to change genres to attempt to escape it but most things relating to combat will still have it.
this seems like a problem with encounter design more than the genre. I noticed WoW basically doesn't give a shit about status effects so you don't need anyone who's good at clearing them. Positionals are piss easy to avoid so no one really considers them a mechanic. Spacing, Timing, coordination, none of this shit is present in WoW but you could easily make it a thing. Imagine if knockback was a mechanic, so you could have knockback specialists who's role it is to keep enemies where you need them. Either up against a wall, or inside a damaging AoE or something. THis isn't impossible in an MMO context, its just that both players and designers are too stupid to play around it.
>Spacing, Timing, coordination, status effects, knockback
Literally every single thing you mentioned is very common in WoW.
The issue is that developers need to run content that everyone can run, and that dramatically reduces viable options. For example, looking at Vanilla WoW, it was impossible to run a Fire mage in Molten Core. It just couldn't be done. Now, that's not too egregious, because a mage could just become Frost or Arcane.
What if content for a game that has a gear treadmill released a boss that, instead of being resistant to just Fire, was resistant to -all- magic? Well, now things just got interesting, but an entire group of players have been alienated. So the developers can't do that anymore, since the only other option is to waste time making an equally comparable dungeon / raid that spellcasters can run where the bosses don't have high spell resistance.
There's always a way to design a game to be more interesting and require specific variations or unique ways of playing, but those ways alienate the players, and that's considered a financial no-no.
That's why things have expanded with class homogenization, too. Can't just have shaman with Bloodlust, we need to expand it so other classes can have it, too, so players don't feel left out, or one specific class isn't in too high of demand. Which is -stupid-, because it means players are just playing classes that have different looks instead of different utility.
It's just one big hassle.
What about PVP games?
Age of Reckoning was PvP-core, had the holy trinity and was horribly balanced, so take from that what you will.
Only good post in this thread
>complicated thing is actually really simple
such insight
This is only a result of the shitty enemy AI. If enemies did more than just stand in place and attack the tank, we would have more varied roles.
Literally all you have to do is add cleave to the boss's abilities and boom now the tank has to do something other than just stand there.
If you remove the need for a tank to soak damage for everyone else, you have not broken the trinity you have only simplified it further.
Tanks are usually extremely cognizant of positioning and moving themselves and enemies around is literally their primary job.
Not exactly true. There are plenty of ways that players can interact with the game, it's just that most of those ways are implemented directly into the mechanics of certain fights/monsters. Plenty of encounters outright require 1 player to stand around and click something, but you can't make a "stand around and click something" a full-time role. Ditto for things like "ok, this boss has to be tanked by a mage!", it's fun and memorable but you can't make it a full-time thing.
Just make it so tanks and healers have the option to chat mute DPS players at any time, count as two votes in kicks and get extra loot.
and shit like this is why people hate tanks and healers.
I'm a DPS player now
ana (overwatch) was fun though, mostly because she WASN'T a braindead point-and-click hero but actually took some skill to play properly
more healers should be like her
Blizzard was weirdly good about making fun healers. Anduin in HotS was probably one of my favorite moba characters of all time.
i haven't played hots but if it's anything like the overwatch healers, it's cause they have more to them than just spamming heals the entire game and entirely depending on others to be useful at all
that way you end up actually interacting with the enemies and the rest of the game mechanics the same way your DPS and tanks do, except you've also got the job of juggling keeping people alive which is fun
Healers in MMOs are usually fun and engaging, I find. You have a clear role that you're typically the only one doing with very clear feedback on how well you're doing.
Playing DPS was always boring to me, because measuring your effectiveness vs the other 4 or so DPS classes isn't as easy, and your specific role isn't as important because there's so many other DPS classes in the party.
That's why DPS classes have to use DPS meter addons to measure how well they're doing vs everyone else.
OW healers were fine, but tanks were awful. Both boring to play as and to play against. I don't want to shoot a barrier at a choke point for 10 minutes, I just want to kill people. The game would have unironically been more fun with just DPS and healers.
At release reinhardt was actually fine as the sole shield tank, it was fun to play around and wasn't mandatory like it was in later seasons. Roadhog and Zarya were always fun as shit for example
but then they went full moron and introduced more and more ways to cuck people out of kills and made it harder and harder to get through defenses. Even with fun tanks like Hammond in the game, you still have to deal with bullshit like Orisa and Sigma
Whats funny is that MonHun works without the trinity but you can opt into it if you really want, and its almost always a gimmick. Big exception being the FF14 crossover boss which is obviously designed to be an MMO boss fight on purpose. I think what helps is that its mostly an action game and not an RPG, so any damage you take is almost always avoidable.
What's also funny is that there is no "team" in MH, it's no different from just fighting the monster by yourself except it dies three times as fast with other players.
True but it can still feel like a team effort. When someone other than you cuts the tail you can feel good about your team clearing "objectives". When someone lands the paint, you know they're looking out for you. When someone pings "I'll set the trap", etc. Its not so much you *can't* do these things but it feels good to know the team is getting shit done so you can focus on other aspects. Maybe thats the critical aspect missing from most games. 14 is a gun game because the trinity has other jobs outside of their prescripted role. Tanks and healers are still expected to DPS. DPS is expect to get adds and do mechanics if there are any. Casters gotta rez and side heal depending on the encounter. I think those tasks help to mitigate the boring feeling thats present in other MMOs. Tanking has been so dumbed down in WoW it can barely be considered a player activity at this point, same with healing AND dps.
holy trinity exists because old players of MMORPGs wanted to kill bosses in the least amount of time and split drop among the least amount of players as possible they realized that the most efficient way was the trinity.
today most mmorpg are action-based so you are required to dodge and block damage so they lack most of the time a true tank or dedicated healing class.
but if you are making a TRUE RPG with classes or stats game then you are bound to have the trinity in it
I don't pike playing tank cause it doesn't hit hard and I have to rely on the healer to keep me alive. I don't like playing healer cause I have to wait on the tank and dps to kill everything. dps is fun because it's self-reliant, even though that goes against the nature of multiplayer.
So is the issue literally just tanks/healers don't do big numbers and/or aren't engaging enough? Because that doesn't sound like an inherent issue with the triangle, it sounds like an issue with the game.
the issue is tank relies on healer and healer has to move as slow as the slowest players in the party.
I have the fix and none of you morons even asked me for it.
Here, I’ll post the fix.
Tanks tank by doing more damage. You hold aggro by doing more damage. Therefor the best tank is the best dps. There, fixed tank.
Healers heal by dealing damage. Everyone gets healed by a % of your damage. Therefor do more heals by doing more damage. There, fixed healing.
Now everyone is dps. Play better homosexuals.
there's a better way to do this
Make all the attacks dodgeable
there game's fixed and fun for everyone
They should expand the trinity, but adding new roles and niches for players to play.
No, everything is fixed by reducing the trinity to just dps
I've been positing that healers should have a cooldown time on their healing abilities and force them to run "traits" or whatever modifies abilities in said game that turn their damaging abilities into skills that also heal allies, or reduce the cooldown on big heals. Instead of making healer a dedicated role, make it a hybrid choice for classes.
I don't know what to do with tanking except make it completely brain-dead and force DPS classes to run auxiliary actions like kiting, stunning, cleansing, or otherwise controlling enemies and providing important short-term in-combat buffs so they have to think for once instead of learning the exact notes for the piano piece they're practicing on their keybinds.
Remove the tank class.
Replace it with support buffer/debuffer class.
Solved
>play DPS
>My skills are sharpened, my Strategies Calculated
>I have practiced movements, I know the fight through dedication
>I am Death, I am the reason for Victory
>play Tank
>I Feel like a god, I can never be killed
>I control the whole battle, if I fail, people die, they rely on me
>My shield will protect them, I am the reason for Victory
>Play Healer
>I know every move the enemy is going to make
>I know my team's status at all times, more than they do
>My Reaction Speed and Instinct will save them, I am the reason for Victory
Remove tank and dps and turn everyone into healers. The objective is to survive until the boss gets bored and just gives up the loot.
I like tanking though - it's nice to be able to take big hits and power through, and doing an optimal damage rotation for savage/endgame content seems like a massive ballache.
Two-man dichotomy role: ranged and melee.
Melee classes do piss-all damage but have high stagger. Ranged classes do high damage but can't interrupt. Basic format is melee player runs in and attacks the boss, deflecting his strikes and stunning him, keeping him off the ranged attacker. He tries for long combos to keep the boss stunlocked so he can't attack back. Ranged attacker has to try to successfully aim at and hit the boss when he's being knocked around, and constantly stay moving to avoid the boss's attention since he has no way of stopping the boss from mowing him down.
Melee attacker has the function of the tank role; he can taunt the boss, which will enrage him and draw focus solely to the melee player for a time. Ranged attacker has the function of the healing role; he can fire healing darts/spells/whatever at the player, and as long as he hits the player (and not the boss) keep his health up.
Here's something to consider: get rid of pure "damage dealing" classes. Make everyone have some form of support ability be it tanking or healing, but everyone does damage on top of that. Everyone deals damage. Focus on what else they can bring to a party.