Ocarina of Time gets a bad rap for being "linear", due almost entirely to people taking Navi's advice as gospel. A lot of people don't realize that you can play OoT's adult dungeons out of order, without using any glitches. OoT is actually a very open game, and you don't need all too much to reach Ganon and see the credits roll. Below I will explain the requirements for each dungeon (including mini-dungeons). Note that these requirements do not include the item you get from the dungeons themselves. Here's the breakdown:
>Forest Temple
>Requirements: Hookshot
All you need for this dungeon is the hookshot, which you can acquire about 5 minutes after Link becomes an adult.
>Fire Temple
>Requirements: Hookshot
Like Forest Temple, you can go to this dungeon any time you want, so long as you have the hookshot. This dungeon's item, the Megaton Hammer, is seldom used outside of the Fire Temple, so you can put this dungeon off for almost as long as you want. You can even wait until after beating every other dungeon (including spirit temple) except shadow to tackle this one.
>Ice Cavern
>Requirements: None
Despite forest temple being widely considered the first dungeon, Ice Cavern is actually the first one you can beat. You can go here the minute you become an adult. You don't even need to get the hookshot beforehand. No requirements.
>Water Temple
>Requirements: Hookshot
Just hookshot. Many will tell you that the bow is also required, but this is wrong. To beat the dungeon without the bow, you'll just need to skip a couple keys. This can be done by using Farore's Wind to bypass two eye switches. Alternatively, if you don't have Farore's Wind, you can also use a warp song to get back outside the dungeon and re-enter from the main entrance (and even saving, quitting and reloading the game will work).
cont.
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>Bottom of the Well
>Requirements: Complete Forest Temple | Song of Storms
You only need the Song of Storms for this one, but believe it or not, you can skip this dungeon entirely. You can even play it after beating every other dungeon in the game. The only reason to go here is to get the Lens of Truth. While this item makes life a lot easier, you can beat both shadow and spirit legitimately without it.
>Shadow Temple
>Requirements: Complete forest, fire and water temples first | Nocturne of Shadow | Hookshot | Bow | Din's Fire / Fire Arrows
You need to beat forest, fire and water before this dungeon will open. You'll need the Nocturne of Shadow (as well as hookshot and a few other items from dungeons you already cleared). To open the main entrance, you'll also need a fire source. Din's Fire makes things easiest, but you can also use Fire Arrows.
>Gerudo's Fortress
> Requirements: Hookshot OR Epona
This is an interesting one. You can go here as soon as you get the hookshot; but you can also get here if you get epona first, rather than the hookshot. Contrary to popular belief, you don't actually need the hookshot or the bow to beat this one. Some mistakenly think that you'll get softlocked because they you'll get stuck in the prison with no way to hookshot out if you're caught by the guards. However, the developers accounted for this possibility: if you go here without the hookshot and get caught, you'll be kicked out to the Carpenter's Tent instead of the prison, meaning you can simply re-enter the compound and try again. It will be significantly more difficult to avoid the guards if you lack either the hookshot or bow, but it can certainly be done. Here's a tip: the guards have reduced vision at night.
cont.
You don't need to do Forest Temple for BotW the only requirement for it is ocarina
You can't enter the Bottom of the Well until you go back in time once, which requires... beating the Forest Temple.
Fair enough then again it's been a while since I even opened it via song of storms
Right, which begs the question: why are you offering up your opinion, stated as fact, when you aren't even sure of what you're saying? Seems like something that a bit of dumb Black person would do.
Because I legitimately forgot that shiek blocks the pedestal of time regardless my knowledge of this one would put you to shame even with the forgetfulness
>Because I legitimately forgot
You legitimately don't know. Now sit down, shut up, and listen to the master.
Master of Gaylord's maybe in either case id rather not hear it
>Master of Gaylords
... and you're the gaylord.
But enough about you this thread is about the greatest game of all time not some attention seeking homosexual
>some attention seeking homosexual
but enough about how your dad became gay after your mom pegged his anus with a bright blue dildo on a friday night last summer while you were jerking off to porn of horses wearing diapers in the room down the hall
>you were jerking off to porn of horses wearing diapers in the room down the hall
/thread
you don't stand a chance. this guy's autism is perfect cell and yours is yajirobe at best
>Gerudo's Fortress
>> Requirements: Hookshot OR Epona
Pretty sure you need the longshot if you don't have Epona to get over the bridge
>one gay that doesn't even know
nah you can hookshot across the bridge with a hookshot glitch
Oh weère talking glitches? Then I can enter Shadow Temple without beating Forest Fire and Water
Gerudo fortress is inaccurate, you need the longshot, not the hookshot as that one doesn't have the range to reach the other side
You CAN play them out of order, to some extent, but you can't beat all of them out of order. For example you need to progress far into Fire Temple to get the megaton hammer to use it on some buttons in Spirit Temple.
Also, don't you need the Forest, Fire and Water medallions to get to Shadow Temple?
Only Fire and Water IIRC
Theoretically with these outlines you could do Shadow before Forest
You don't need the Hammer for the Spirit Temple. I know cause I just did a playthrough last week where I did Fire Temple AFTER it.
There is exactly 1 rusted switch in the Spirit Temple and all it does is open up a shortcut between the entrance lobby and the big statue room.
Nobody is beating Bingo Bingo without lens of truth unless their 10th + playthrough
Oot does have non linearity but you need the bow and you need the longshot so the forest and water are always required early as an adult
Frick me
Bongo bongo
king of the bingo, king of the bongo
>duuude you like, need experience with the game to beat it in a harder way
wow very thought provoking
>Oot does have non linearity but you need the bow and you need the longshot so the forest and water are always required early as an adult
tell me more about needing the longshot and bow for ice cavern, fire temple and gerudo's fortress (you don't). and all you need for forest/fire/water is hookshot, which you get as soon as you become adult.
Actually it's called "Oingo Boingo".
That's actually genius design, more items from other dungeons just open up shortcuts or make killing enemies easier to the point players think they're required with each dungeon's own item the only one required to beat it.
If Navi gave a list of all potential options you could complete more people would probably know this and that's it's only flaw, most people beat the game in the same order as Kid Link dungeons.
But every dungeon item aside from the bow is worse for combat?
>megaton hammer is slower and removes your shield
>longshot doesn't change how your hookshot works for combat, if you really needed to hit something from far away the bow is also faster
>boots have no combat function
>the mirror shield functions exactly like the regular shield
The Mirror Shield is actually worse because it destroys projectiles instead of blocking them
Wish it shot them back as laser beams like later titles or at least utilized the cool Twinrova charging mechanics outside of that one fight
It would've been cool if the Mirror Shield could reflect Beamos attacks
Based OP. Nu-Zelda gays could never comprehend breaking an actual set of orders, not "go to the four baby mode dungeons whenever you want"
bad rap? have a nice day, illiterate mongoloid from the US.
Don't be a diaper baby.
shut up Black personhomosexual
>illiterate mongoloid
says the moron 3rd world ESL homosexual. "bad rap" is a common term that originated in the 1700s, its not some zoomer slang. holy shit point and laugh
your mom was a common prostitute that got anally fisted since third grade lmao
all me
obsessed
Ever since botw, the newbies to the series have been shitting on oot for being too linear to justify skinning the zelda series for ubislop style open world.
OoT doesn't get a "bad rap".
I disagree.
It's one of the most praised games of all time.
That makes it immune to unfair criticisms?
nope, botw zoomers shit on it all the time because they want oot to be surpassed (it hasn't)
Can you really open the shadow temple with fire arrows? That's sounds tedious. Don't they go out eventually?
Yeah, like I said, it's a lot harder than just using Din's Fire. But it can be done. There are videos on youtube if you're interested.
>open the shadow temple with fire arrows
What's the point of doing this? You can't get fire arrows until you beat Water Temple yet you would have Din's Fire since Link was a kid.
Speedrunners used to literally do this.
Now they just jump over the door. :^)
who cares what speedrunners do. they dont play games in the first place
I agree, it's hacking and it's arguably more entertaining to me than the actual game.
I'm sorry, what? Can you explain the mindset here? To me, "playing the game" is engaging with the tools the player is given, which speedrunning is too.
There's playing with the vanilla intention of the developers and then there's playing outside of the realms of their intended vision.
TotK is a bit weird though, it's arguably that some "hacks" aren't hacks there.
But when you're clipping through walls and deleting objects in computer memory, you've clearly moved into hacking.
But it's also not that simple again, because SRM and ACE have completely fricked up the idea of speedrunning rules too. It's now something that has to be a more objectively agreed upon set of tools.
Glitchless is a thing too, but I just don't get much from it. I want to see people really push computer mechanics in the weirdest and quirkiest ways with game mechanics. It's about using the game itself as an interface to hack.
Hence why it really does have nothing to do with actually playing the game nowadays, most speedrunners would 100% agree that it's become more "speedhacking" now.
>But when you're clipping through walls and deleting objects in computer memory, you've clearly moved into hacking.
No. Objectively, obviously false.
If you have to pilot the player character around and have them perform game actions that so happen to be pointed at bits of memory they weren't intended to be, then it's glitching.
If you have direct control on a level greater than a controller can provide, THEN and ONLY then is it hacking.
By your definition, people have been "hacking" in OOT since they first discovered cartridge tilting.
>SRM and ACE have completely fricked up the idea of speedrunning rules too. It's now something that has to be a more objectively agreed upon set of tools.
Games with any form of ACE or other similar "skip directly to the ending" glitch often just implement a new category either for it or without it and call it a day.
Doesn't make them any more than what they are: glitches. Nor does it mean the people who do them aren't playing the game.
>most speedrunners would 100% agree that it's become more "speedhacking" now
Maybe specifically any% runners in games where arbitrary code execution is already understood and "solved"? But not many others would agree with your assessment.
>If you have direct control on a level greater than a controller can provide, THEN and ONLY then is it hacking.
Do you know the OoT hacking community?
They'll disagree because it gets to the point where you can just do ACE in the game with multiple controllers.
And cartridge tilting is bordering on mere corruption, not just hacking. You're adding noise there to the code.
>Nor does it mean the people who do them aren't playing the game.
Now now, I am saying per the way the dev intended.
If you want your own monopoly rules then by all means use them and call it monopoly.
But it's technically only real monopoly when the rules are adhered too.
But we still all call it monopoly regardless until it's so different that the board is no longer there, the pieces no longer there and the cards have been turned into a standard 52 set and the rules are just poker.
This definition will never be unanimously agreed upon though. It's always changing like most "real sports" like soccer or rugby.
>They'll disagree because it gets to the point where you can just do ACE in the game with multiple controllers.
If you're doing ACE with multiple controllers and accomplishing anything fancier than a wrongwarp, you're making a tool assisted superplay, not a speedrun. Nor is it a showcase of individual skill. At this point, it's pure ingenuity, people testing things and trying new things based on what they learn.
>If you want your own monopoly rules then by all means use them and call it monopoly.
I'm the one operating by the "original Monopoly rules" here. Hacking is when you bring in an influence like a gameshark, interceding on the code directly without otherwise interacting with any in-game systems. If you operate entirely within the framework the game gives you, you're not hacking, you're playing.
>Hacking is when you bring in an influence like a gameshark, interceding on the code directly without otherwise interacting with any in-game systems.
Bollocks, if you're using the game interfaces like characters and movement in the game engine itself to hack it, you're just literally using what computer programmers call an "exploit" or a "bug". You're not playing vanilla. You're hacking deliberately.
Now if the bugs are so bad that it's impossible to not hack your game when playing, then hacking becomes part of the game. But you're still hacking regardless.
At that point you are left with the mere discretion of the community on what is the game and what isn't at that point though. In fact the devs intentions are arguably irrelevant potentially at that stage if the bugs are so bad that it's impossible to go per their intentions.
Also this why you "hack" your linux or windows OS the way you want. Most of the time your OS will not be used as per the intent of some developers.
>if you're using the game interfaces like characters and movement in the game engine itself to hack it,
You are stretching the definition of "hack" beyond all reasonable limits. You are claiming that all developer-unintended behavior that might have results a player enjoys is "hacking", regardless of its origin. At this point, you may as well label anyone who abuses game design oversights a "hacker"- and then anyone who can play a game at all. Where's the limit of what the devs STRICTLY intended? You can't know!
That's why you don't make definitions based on the intent of a fallible group.
A hack, regardless of what it was intended to do, and what it does in practice, is a hack because it is a force outside the game. A glitch, regardless of who did it and their intent, is a glitch because it is a force inside the game.
NTA but you're being obtuse about it. Any% OOT involves arbitrarily moving shit around within the game's memory and forcing it to run pieces of code. You're using the game as a tool to modify (albeit not permanently) its own code and make it do what you want.
This guy is telling me all glitches IN GENERAL, regardless of game, constitute hacking.
To be fair, all IO interrupts are a form of hacking to begin with.
People don't seem to understand the term "hacking" here and just think it's a man in a balaclava wearing rubber gloves plugging in a keyboard to their N64 here.
>You are stretching the definition of "hack" beyond all reasonable limits.
I now that it is being stretched, but that's because we've reached a point where it must be stretched and considered in this way.
You're talking about the scope of interfaces with the game's code, the console's system and the process being implemented to run the game (which can be whatever the frick N64 uses or an emulator like WiiVC).
When your controllers can literally bring up the debug menu - you have a problem here as a runner because suddenly you have unlimited power here. You just have an OS essentially at that stage and you've moved beyond the mere coding of the game and into interacting directly with the hardware calls and processes.
This is the problem in particular with ACE from memory.
That is how far Zelda speedrunning has gone now. It's insane.
And we're now at the point where formerly normal actions in the game are being questioned as to whether they were meant to be played like that. The idea of glitchless is also kinda fricked there.
So now community consensus and agreement on the environment of the court we're playing on becomes the issue here.
>that's because we've reached a point where it must be stretched and considered in this way
Considered maybe, but if we stretch the definition of a specific word to entirely consume that of another word that is already plenty specific, we have not aided the language in the slightest. No matter how much consensus people arrive at that a certain glitch is "as good as hacking", the fact is the classic distinction between glitches and hacking is still far more precise than just writing off everything unintended-but-useful as "hacking". Precision is infinitely more important than something "feeling" right.
>You just have an OS essentially at that stage
... Albeit one that an actual human being can only manipulate at such absurdly slow speeds, compared to a computer, that it's useless to real-time players for any feats greater in scale than flipping a few very specific bits.
I understand what ACE is. I just do not view it as "hacking" any more than I view cartridge tilting or bomb hovering as "hacking". They begin in-game as actions and end in-game as results like warps. Using ACE to "escape" the game and play around on N64 hardware in general, I would consider to be hacking.
But again, that's not something anyone does in an actual speedrun they play for themselves in real time. That's something a TAS does when the creator(s) is/are showing off. It's also not possible in every game. Trying to alter the vernacular with which you discuss all video games because some of them hit a noteworthy milestone is backwards.
>To be fair, all IO interrupts are a form of hacking to begin with.
In the strictest sense, anything the developers didn't 100% intend for you to do is hacking. But being this permissive with the definition of hacking allows unbalanced gameplay to become "hacking" inherently. The cultural meaning the term has taken on in the context of video games exists for a good reason. Ever heard of Chesterton's Fence?
>Chesterton's Fence
I disagree, burn Hyrule to the ground for the blood god.
>No matter how much consensus people arrive at that a certain glitch is "as good as hacking", the fact is the classic distinction between glitches and hacking is still far more precise than just writing off everything unintended-but-useful as "hacking".
I completely and utterly disagree. It is a pure social construct based on the prerogative of the devs or the running community.
When you are dealing with an activity that involves more and more particulars to the point where it has clearly diverged from the plain layman idea of that activity - it is no longer that activity.
Otherwise you become stuck in the arbitrary scope of certain people with a certain discretion on the rulesets used in the activity.
>Precision is infinitely more important than something "feeling" right.
Well then you should agree with me that the idea of hacking should be more precisely defined here and it should really be considered in the light of the computer/IO processes involved here. And a more precise definition is that hacking really involves anything intervening with a consistently running state in the machine.
Hacking is literally what we do to machines to get them to function correctly for our needs and requirement. At it's most root level it is anything that interrupts the currently running system. At it's most "precise".
But you also agree that's just nonsense to the layman right?
But at the same time you have to deny it's imprecise, abstracted and inaccurate use in the context computer wise.
Therefore, the definition of hacking you have provided is, firstly, not really the covered by the full scope of the term "hacking" here, and secondly, is merely and arbitrary a decision made by a conglomerate or community of people involved with the activity.
This is why zelda speedrunning is fricking whack as frick. I don't think runners expected it to ever get into this level of detail.
>It is a pure social construct based on the prerogative of the devs or the running community
Looks like it's my turn to completely and utterly disagree. If there's no true, underlying definition of the words "hack" and "glitch", then nobody is able to communicate. Those with experience in the field clearly understand what is a hack, what is a glitch, what is an exploit, etcetera. I am attempting to put this understanding to words, while you are attempting to shift this understanding by shifting words.
>Otherwise you become stuck in the arbitrary scope of certain people with a certain discretion on the rulesets used in the activity.
The "arbitrary scope" is not arbitrary in the slightest. If an unusual/unintended event occurs to an unmodified game without any influence the game wasn't built for (e.g. only player input), then it is a glitch. If that event requires the game to be modified in some fashion, or requires the game to be influenced by means outside of itself and its normal influences, then it is a hack.
>But at the same time you have to deny it's imprecise, abstracted and inaccurate use in the context computer wise.
No, I do not. This "imprecise" word, as you say, in this specific instance, allows for an infinitely more precise dichotomy to emerge: Glitches and hacks, within the context of speedrunning, mean different things. You are trying to reduce the amount of sorting in a category that is already very large and often in need of further elaboration when spoken of. Why? What's the aim here?
>underlying definition of the words "hack" and "glitch"
We're not talking glitch.
We're talking hack here.
A glitch is another different bag of eggs. A glitch is a more abstract thing and is 100% only definable give a scope of what is "intended" by the devs and through consensus with the playing community.
A hack is a more immediate intrusive intervention with the flow of data into a computer processor. It could be just the input of data one time into the queue of data to be processed or it could be a diversion of the queue though a proceeding process and a transformation of the input into the original process situation. IO is 100% a hack, whether it be a controller input or a person connecting wires to a port and then running a circuit running on the mere power of a hamster in a hamster wheel.
>If an unusual/unintended event occurs to an unmodified game without any influence the game wasn't built for (e.g. only player input), then it is a glitch.
But I'm saying the tools are there and potentially usable for ANY player.
What really matters is what the general unsophisticated player does with the controller here though. And that's the problem - you need an arbitrary definition of what a general unsophisticated player does then.
And that's just going to make all advanced combat a "hack" at some point. Hence why it is an invalid definition of the term in the context of speedrunning a game.
>If that event requires the game to be modified in some fashion, or requires the game to be influenced by means outside of itself and its normal influences, then it is a hack.
But any controller input is a modification and controller input is often used in a manner that goes beyond "casual gameplay".
>Glitches and hacks, within the context of speedrunning, mean different things.
To each other or to other circumstances where the same terminology is being used?
>IO is 100% a hack, whether it be a controller input or a person connecting wires to a port and then running a circuit running on the mere power of a hamster in a hamster wheel
Let me try a metaphor.
When someone walks into your office disguised as a janitor and is let in without question, then proceeds to a PC whose owner left unlocked for their three hour lunch, and information that existed on that PC gets stolen, you do not say someone "hacked into" the company and took that data. Maybe you might have a case for saying the PC was hacked, but even that would be challenged by anyone who knew the full story. Doing something against the wishes of whoever owns or made that thing isn't automatically hacking, even when the thing is a computer.
So, no. I reject your belief that all IO is hacking.
>you need an arbitrary definition of what a general unsophisticated player does then.
That's what YOUR definition needs! If a glitch of certain complexity can BECOME a hack, then all good play is on the road to being a hack! To deny that ACE is a glitch when it is set up via glitches is... just... so transparently stupid!
>But any controller input is a modification
A modification... of a field that is generally well sanitized and prepared to accept arbitrary inputs. This is different than modifying something that's supposed to be static, like a line of code relating to the life counter, in that you are modifying something the developers created solely to be modified. It isn't merely the intent, but the entire design for the "information space" your controller data occupies.
>To each other or to other circumstances where the same terminology is being used?
To each other.
>When someone walks into your office disguised as a janitor and is let in without question
Oh so hard locks and passwords are required for hacking here?
But there are none really with this game. Access is just there.
But you do have some case to stand on there - the idea of lock mechanics and passwords there. If the ritual is so convoluted that you have to do something complex to gain access - it's a hack then right?
But what about the complexity of the IO functions involved then from a functional programming pov? Doesn't that become important then? It might not necessarily negate calling an IO input a hack then potentially.
At the end of the day though - arbitrariness becomes an issue here again though. The community needs to agree with what specific issues, factors and circumstances are at the core of defining what a hack here is.
> you do not say someone "hacked into" the company and took that data.
... actually some organisations do call that hacking (or physical penetration/exploitation at least). Some people call the social engineering and even sockpuppeting and manipulation of worker-base part of that too.
Obviously calling it "hacking" is wrong though, because hacking should be SPECIFIC to the intervention of instructions to the computer processor though.
Otherwise, it's just "glitch" and therefore becomes a redundant term in the context of gaming with computer devices.
Hacking like hacking into a tree, cutting into it. That notion is the most key here. The instantaneous intervention of a pipeline of instructions. You are cutting into it like you would a pipe with a HACKsaw.
>If the ritual is so convoluted that you have to do something complex to gain access - it's a hack then right?
Depends on where the ritual takes place. If it's entirely within the bounds of the game, then no. If it requires you to plug something else into the console, or modify something beforehand, then yes.
The difference is that glitching occurs when you are "on the game's level"- you are supposedly at a disadvantage, with your means of input being so simplified. This turns the challenge of making the game do as you wish in this state into something with a similar appeal to hacking. But it distinctly is not hacking, because you already have "access"- the challenge is changing some parts in unintended ways.
Allow me to show you an instance of a glitch which is SOLELY known as a glitch and is considered by nobody of import to be a hack, while being a fully-fledged method of ACE:
8F, from Pokemon Red and Blue. (Specifically the US versions of such.)
https://archives.glitchcity.info/forums/board-115/thread-6638/page-0.html
You see all those IN-GAME steps? The lack of any hardware but a game boy and its buttons? The fact that the game is doing exactly what its original code says in response to variables it's usually ready for any value of (input, inventory states, player states, game states, etc.), which so happens to turn into executing arbitrary code if the player sets things up right? That is a glitch. And it will be a glitch regardless of how much the result differs from the developers' intent, or how much it's in the player's favor. Until the game wholly disintegrates from around the core ACE code, that is.
kek this is insane.
But it's 4am and I still have issues with the assumptions here.
Maybe my own scope of the argument here was hacked.
Because I thought the argument was about the term "hack" not "glitch" specifically. May I quote:
>If you have direct control on a level greater than a controller can provide, THEN and ONLY then is it hacking.
Then again I was originally talking about how it was mere hacking and not gameplay(
), but then I realised that was flawed too as a premise straight after that when I realised that technically all gameplay is hacking, which was the argument I finished with.
Anyway, tired and bren hurts now. I guess I will just concede that I was right all along because I said so and your opinion a shit! SHIT! and your momma smells. Adios.
In fairness, I've been running on fumes too. Have a good night.
He's not wrong, he said games as in plural. Speedrunners just break a single one to the point of absurdity and then some. And they don't touch any other game.
>And they don't touch any other game.
Well glitchless runners might.
Others generally do try the art of it on other games nowadays. It's about finding the quirks of particular gameplay mechanics that are just there to suit the creative story/gameplay design choices of the game makers vision. All the while seeing how strange it truly ends up within the context of the game and comparing it to vanilla play-through.
I've always been half-obsessed with this sort of thing with things like music production, but I've kinda been obsessed over the computer/game/visual art formats of this too now.
It comes off as perverse in the vanilla context of a piece of art.
>the art of it
Speedrunning isn't an art lol, it's an abomination.
A bit of both really.
It's more like violent pornography really.
>bro you can just get the bow from the forest temple and come back. it counts as nonlinear bro
You don't need the bow for almost any of these dungeons, as shown. Are you moronic or just trying to poison the well?
>the gay moron zelda hater from /vr/ found the thread
He got quiet all of a sudden. He must be busy switching IPs on his phone so he can post another false, dimwitted argument about a game he's never played. Imagine living your life to stalk /vr/ and Ganker, looking for OoT threads to shit on. What a miserable little man he must be.
>just do this contrived bullshit and it's non-linear
No thanks, linearity isn't a bad thing. OoT is one of the most highly rated and influential games of all time. The only thing it deserves a bad rap for is boot swapping.
>>just do this contrived bullshit and it's non-linear
What exactly do you think is "contrived" about this? You need the hookshot for the first three dungeons, one dungeon requires nothing, one dungeon can be skipped entirely, and the rest have fairly limited requirements. The only thing "contrived" is your experience playing the game, because you're an npc who was tricked by Navi into thinking you needed a bunch of shit that you didn't.
I'd say having to use Farore's Wind or leaving and reentering to get around not needing the bow in the water temple is contrived bullshit. Considering that every other dungeon can be completed in one trip without any shenanigans the water temple sticks out like a sore thumb.
True. You can do it after forest without beating fire with zero bullshit though
You're acting like it's "contrived" to use Farore's Wind and circumvent various rooms/puzzles in dungeons, when that is literally what the item was designed to do. It's a different way to play the game that the developers intentionally added. Go ahead and tell me how Farore's Wind is meant to be used in a linear way, I'd love to hear it.
It's clearly meant for kids having trouble with beating a dungeon in one go.
The Kakariko cutscene after you beat Fire+Water+Forest is a pretty clear indication of where the game expects you to go, though Shadow/Spirit is one of the easiest swaps next to Fire/Water.
it's main intent was that you could put a checkpoint in a dungeon for when you saved and quit. cuz y'know, when you boot up the game as adult link you always start at the Temple of Time.
you're autistic anon.
If you're in a dungeon, you start the dungeon entrance when you load the game, not the temple of time. You have a low IQ.
i misspoke then. let me rephrase.
it's main intent was that you could put a checkpoint in a dungeon for when you saved and quit. cuz y'know, when you boot up the game as adult link you always start at the beginning of the dungeon.
>i misspoke then.
You didn't misspeak, you just don't know what you're talking about, and you're offering up an opinion on things that you only have a foggy recollection of. By the way, Farore's Wind doesn't even make a checkpoint in the exact room you're in -- usually, it sets it to the dungeon entrance. You don't know this game.
>Link can use it to create a warp point at the entrance to a dungeon room at a cost of 6 MP, and then freely cast it again at a later time to warp to the point he created from any dungeon (or anywhere in Ocarina of Time 3D). The warp point is single-use, and only one warp point can be set at any time, but he can recast the spell to recreate it as long as he has enough magic power, and can dispel it for free.
>posts a video of using farore's wind to return to the dungeon entrance
are you legitimately moronic?
>ootgay doesn't even recognize the first room of each dungeon
>I was merely pretending to be moronic
??? It sets the waypoint at the last door you enter in a dungeon
not only are you a complete moron, but your arrogance on being homosexual has made my night. i'm sure your coworkers love coming to the dishpit to talk to you.
I guess that settles it then, you have anal parasites.
>By the way, Farore's Wind doesn't even make a checkpoint in the exact room you're in -- usually, it sets it to the dungeon entrance
Farore's Wind works on nearly every dungeon door in the game. Shucks, Chuck, I thought you knew something about OoT but it looks like you're just an anus.
Nah, I beat The Sealed Palace without needing FW. I thought Nayru's Love was required to get through Fire without glitches but later realized the Ice Arrows would do the trick as well
>Farore's Wind works on nearly every dungeon door in the game
You haven't actually used it. It will always set a point at the nearest "hub" in the dungeon, not the room you're in.
Farores wind sets its marker above the last door you walked through. I specifically remember this because I fell off the ledge in the forest temple green room, and used farores wind to get back up instead of going the long way around.
That isn't how it works and I'm not going to have your moronic ass telling me otherwise. I play this game every day homosexual. Farore's Wind sets a warp point at particular spots, the individual room you're in doesn't have any bearing on it. If you're in a room that happens to be one of farore's pre-defined "spots", then yes, it will return you there. Otherwise, you can cast it half way through a dungeon and it'll still link you back to several rooms away if the place you're currently in is not one of those pre-defined points. Now shut the frick up, you know nothing about this game.
You know you could easily prove this by showing you entering a room, activating Farore’s Wind, and then using it again only for it to warp you several rooms back to one of these mythical pre-defined points. Otherwise you’ll just be called a moron who doesn’t actually know anything about the game.
>You know you could easily prove this
I don't need to prove it, you'd know if you had played the game. If neither of us posts a video, then there's no proof for the lemmings observing the conversation. Yet, proof or no proof, I will still remain right, and you will still remain wrong. Go test it for yourself tomorrow, I'll mine the sweet salt of your unadmitted failure.
knowing about ocarina of time was the one thing you were good at and you managed to fail at even that
>you're wrong because I say so
I guess you're just a homosexual, oh well.
He's right. Seriously, open up the game and try it. Go into a dungeon, go through a door, and cast Farore's Wind.
Stop replying to him. He's been getting btfo all thread and is just doubling down instead of admitting he's wrong
He was right about dungeon order. Not knowing about how Farore's Wind works when the game fricking tells you is pretty mental though
>talking to himself
sad
Everyone knows about dungeon order
>I beat The Sealed Palace without needing FW.
really? thats neat. I was completely stumped until I remembered that FW trick and that got me through the rest of the dungeon.
>You got Farore's Wind! This is warp magic you can use with C. Warp when you are in danger! You will teleport to the Warp Point. When you first use the magic, you will create a Warp Point. When you use the magic again, you can either dispel the Warp Point you created last time or warp to that point.
Since the warp point stays after saving and quitting, its intentional use is if you have to leave the dungeon for some reason (whether that's due to running low on hearts and items or you have to save and quit) so you can pick up right where you left off.
How is this anymore contrived than solving physics puzzles by building shit in Tears of the kingdom?
yeah bro just sequence break the water temple to save keys and beat shadow temple with no lens of truth, totally reasonable for someone to do organically
Again...how the frick is this worse than building some shitty cart to cross across some physics rails and having to jerry rig them until they actually work? At least the sequence breaking is fun and you get cool locales and dungeons. Cant say the same for Tears
Who ever said anything about doing this "organically"? Nobody expects you to play like this your first time. It's just something fun to do on a future playthrough, when you already have the knowledge of the how the game works. Also:
>sequence break
Farore's Wind is literally an item designed for "sequence breaking".
>gc version
You didn't play the game
When I first played ocarina of time I finished the water temple first. I struggled so much with shadow link because I didn't have the megaton hammer.
I find this entire thread funny, because it just gave me the realization of how meaningless and shallow words like "linear" and "non linear" are.
the problem with Zelda isn't the order of its dungeons. It's the dungeons being braindead to navigate, and the puzzles being braindead to solve.
but I recently saw some moron on Ganker a couple days ago go "Zelda dungeons are so much better than Dark Souls because of how you have to think of the dungeon as a whole and how many items interact...wow..."
So I've also realized that this place is moronic, because the most important thing, and depth that can be derived from a 3D space. Has nothing to do with interactivity. PUZZLES are where interactivity should matter, and even then they don't. 3D space, should take advantage of the Z-axis, verticality, traversal, and navigation. Zelda has a literal automated jump buttons, so traversal is fricking garbage. Verticality is meaningless when navigation is meaningless, or else Sekiro would be the fromsoft game with the best level design. And on the note of navigation...it's literally "Open every door till get Key, then Open locked doors". Literally mindless.
God, I hate this shitty fricking game so much. I should rate it SO much lower than I do just because of the sheer amount of morons that CONSTANTLY gaslight me about how great it is, and crushed my childhood dream of living out a Link adventure.
Dogshit garbage board that thinks "good conversation" is when a moronic circlejerk happens where morons are saying "Zelda dungeons are so much more interesting than Souls dungeons!"
You're probably looking for a butthurt response, but I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying. I concede that many of the game's various puzzles and obstacles may seem trivial, but you're missing the point of the game. You can't view OoT through the lens of difficulty. Don't compare it to other games. OoT is about the experience. Ocarina of Time is about a scenic medieval world and the interesting ways you find to to explore it. Ask yourself: those things you find most simplistic about the game, have you ever actually tried to find a way to make them even to solve? Therein lies the genius of OoT: you are not tasked with overcoming difficulty, but making the simple, simpler.
It's rare, but there are occasional puzzles that do this will like SS boss keys and Sky Keep as a whole.
The problem is 3D Zelda being babbyshit to the point they're never willing to experiment with creative puzzles. With the N64 titles, they had more complex dungeons in development that got whittled down into what they are, which is a real shame.
Their only real claim to fame is atmosphere.
That's bullshit man. The N64 Zeldas, and particularly OoT, have a ton of depth and creativity. You're comparing the finished product to some theoretical shit that you think would be better just because it would be on the DD, when in reality it could've been a pile of trash. Just so you know, the biggest reason they changed development from the DD to a regular cart was because they couldn't create the game they wanted to without a cartridge. As an example, Link has 500 unique animations in OoT, all of which are loaded into RAM and accessible at all times in the N64 version. The DD wouldn't allow for quickly streaming data, so they abandoned it in favor of the cartridge format. The game we got is probably a lot better than the abortion they were planning on.
>some theoretical shit
I'm comparing it to the actual beta Temple maps found in the recent half-build a year or 2 ago and a translator's recollection of a pre-release Stone Tower Temple. There's enough here we actually know about for me to easily say this definitively. OoT absolutely got shafted from its full potential through the failure of the DD.
>and particularly OoT, have a ton of depth and creativity.
Lol. statements like this just affirm to me, I should really NEVER trust Ganker on their moronic shallow doomposting of any vidya younger than 2006.
I think an opinion like this is even too much for me to write up and argument against, because the perception indicates it wouldn't matter. Whatever. Disappointing. This game doesn't deserve how much I wish it was good.
>no argument
In terms of complexity in Zelda's dungeon design, I'm always surprised by how MQ is usually left out of the discussion. Arguably MQ swings into romhack territory with its design, but it certainly asks more of the player's understanding of its systems in order to complete it.
MQ quickly devolves into a game of Where's Waldo with switches. It's better than vanilla, but in a way that improves in a different direction rather than correcting existing problems.
>words words words
>moron says nothing
I find this entire poost funny, you said nothing yet you typed and rambled for 10 minutes lol
>the problem with Zelda isn't the order of its dungeons. It's the dungeons being braindead to navigate, and the puzzles being braindead to solve.
Finally, someone says it.
It's the same reason why the new "open-air" formula introduced with BoTW is already growing stale by its second game via ToTK.
The reality is that Nintendo didn't fix any of the real, underlying problems associated with the Zelda franchise. They just "covered" up their faults with a new coat of paint via a """new""" formula, but the reality is that they want to casualize the absolute frick out of this series. They've attempted to time and time again, and the fans, the general audiences, do not like it.
You will never beat OOT Master Quest, I can tell.
It is kind of goofy how close a lot of Zelda game could be to being way more non-linear.
Who gives a frick about your 30 year old slop let it fricking die you moronic nostalgiaBlack person
Shouldn't you be on Fortnite buying the new Eminem skin?
Don’t act like you wouldn’t buy an OoT Link skin with Goron/Zora/Dark Link variants and a Cucco glider if it was available
I appreciate the effort but it will fall on deaf ears here, /vr/ is better suited for this
Saved for future playthroughs tho
The amount you claim the bow is optional feels off to me. I could swear every dungeon had at least an eye switch or an otherwise out-of-reach crystal switch.
It's simple: you're wrong.
This one
You don't need to mess with that eye switch at all. The only thing behind there is a key that you can skip.
I had to look it up, but he's right. There's an eye door in Fire Temple but it only leads to the dungeon map and you can actually get that chest from the other side anyway. The fact that you can lock yourself out of the water temple if you don't have the bow shows how far out of the game's expectations this kind of routing is, though.
Zelda 1 is still the best. If you know what you're doing you can just go nuts and do Level 8 first. You technically don't even need a sword until Ganon.
>The fact that you can lock yourself out of the water temple if you don't have the bow
Where are you getting this from? You can beat the water temple without bow, and there's no way to "lock yourself out".
My bad, got confused by key layout
dont talk about things you dont understand
I understand the opening of the game is a slog where you go from unskippable cutscene to unskippable cutscene and can't so much as walk up a mountain trail without a permission slip so I don't think I'll ever replay it
so you didnt play the game, got it
I played it twice, once when it was called A Link to the Past
>le ocarina is just alttp in 3D!!!
gay and moronic, you never played the game.
Nta but kinda
Same progression 3 dungeons that unlock the dark world/future than 8 dungeons and the game is over
Pig ganon final boss
A lot of the same tropes and reused names
The only real difference is 2d/3d and that alttp least changed the entire 2nd world instead of a single screen
this is like saying zelda 1 and skyward sword are the same because they both feature some kid in a green hat fighting goblins. OoT is no closer to ALttP than it is to any other game in the series. get the frick out of here you clown shoe.
No they cleaely used alttp as a base for oot, are you trying to convince yourself they didn’t?
okay gay, if we're talking real meta lore here, are you implying that majora's mask wasn't directly influenced by gay Black folk from outer space?
Imagine being this much of a brain rotted zoomer homosexual.
>zoomer
my favorite Zelda came out 35 years ago
I felt that way too before I challenged myself to do every single dungeons in the game in "reverse" order. The bow is surprisingly useless
Hold on. You need the bow to shoot an eye to open the gate and then use the Long Hookshot to get through into another important area. I could have sworn thats needed.
It is if you're not skipping keys
Don't engage in nuZeldatards' delusions about OoT. There's a reason the game's so beloved by people who actually like Zelda.
I actually like the linear Zelda games.
You're also a fleshy robot so that make sense
Okay. This sounds like a massive headache when you could just do them in the order nintendo expected you too.
good golem, good golem... don't think, just consoom. who's a good corn syrup golem? you are. ohhh, little baby syrup golem...
>if you abuse a warp spell you can do a dungeon out of order. This was hecking on purpose and not that some jap guys 20 years ago probably didn’t fricking care enough to lock everything out 100%
>if you abuse a warp spell
you mean the item they purposely designed and put into the game to let you skip between places that you normally wouldn't be able to without it? you're not the brightest bulb.
Nah. i think your stupid and care way too much about what people think about a video game anon
i'd be worried but you're a bisexual automaton with no soul, so thankfully your opinion can be safely discarded
Temple
This sounds like BS, so you can softlock the dungeon basically?
you can just hookshot jump to access shadow temple, no need to beat any other temples first
>glitches
Read the OP you fricking moron.
You're right and TP babies will keep seething.
I love how this game still makes some people so angry.
It's a good game and Ganker hates anything that isnt a soijak or interracial shitpost
>delusional ootgay counts ice cavern/ bottom of the well/ and gerudo hideout as full ass dungeons.
lol, lmao even
>bisexual mulatto using a mac can't read
>redditspacing
You'll need to go back.
I'm white, gay, and a phoneposter
3 strikes and your out anon
>redditposting
ask me how i know your a newbie without you directly telling me
You're gay, a Black person, and gay.
>muh paragraphs
Yes, believe it or not, there have always been redditspacing homosexuals on Ganker. Even before reddit.
>i'm sexually frustrated and will probably kill myself after several decades of being fricked anally by other men
whoa sick burn, how will that guy ever recover
just wait til this anon finds out that middle aged straight white males have the highest rate of suicide, shhh nobody tell him.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/researchers-find-disparities-suicide-risk-among-lesbian-gay-bisexual-adults
Been a while since I played OOT last so I'm gonna 100% it for the first time. Been pretty fun so far
yeah OP you're being a disingenuous homosexual. Doing shit out of order is obviously not intended and not smooth. You end up having to go into dungeons, getting the item, then fricking leaving and going to some other dungeon doing a bunch of arbitrary shit you wouldn't figure out on your own. Basically, sure, you can "complete" the dungeons in almost any order, but you wouldn't do so without looking up the bullshit contrivances you have to do to accomplish such a feat.
I hate israelites too, so you're not a complete homosexual.
>You end up having to go into dungeons, getting the item, then fricking leaving and going to some other dungeon doing a bunch of arbitrary shit you wouldn't figure out on your own
Why do you keep posting this? Nothing you said here is true. As I've demonstrated with the posts (that you didn't read), you don't need to "retrieve an item" from an dungeon. You don't hate israelites, you are one.
He listed all the requirements and included any required dungeon items. You underestimated his power and now you're going to the shadow realm
>Why do you keep posting this?
It was my first post in the topic you hivemind schizo.
>Nothing you said here is true.
yeah because skipping the Bottom of the Well is such a smooth and not contrived thing to do. walking into kakariko, having cutscenes telling you directly to check out the well. navigating the shadow temple without the lens of truth. yeah. no one in their right mind is going to do that and think "man this game is so open ended!" and your water temple method? yeah, enjoy softlocking yourself out of the dungeon when you use those keys as intended.
t. NPC
Nobody is telling you to do any of this on your first run. Doing this stuff implies knowledge of the game. Yeah, it's not a big deal to skip an entire dungeon with an item you don't need when you know that you don't need it. I bet pay for subscription services and order doordash.
cool you stopped trying to defend it as not being contrived.
>contrived contrived contrived!!!
The funny part is that it's actually easier and faster to beat the dungeons in these "contrived" ways because you're doing less work.
>easier to complete shadow temple without lens of truth
anyways, my main point was that it's disingenuous to claim OoT as a nonlinear game based on contrived nonsense because the same could be said of almost every video game.
OoT being non-linear isn't a matter of debate, it's a fact. You can play the dungeons out of order, it's non-linear. Even if you want to try and artificially limit the dungeon orders by saying that shit like lens of truth skip doesn't count, there's still the fact you can play ice cavern with no restrictions, fire temple with only hookshot, swap shadow and spirit, etc. The game is objectively non-linear no matter how far you take it.
>You can play the dungeons out of order, it's non-linear.
so there is an objective order to complete the dungeons. like an intended non contrived way a player will naturally do them in as in intended by the developers when crafting the game? and there's an obviously non intended out of the way to circumnavigate this? literally every zelda mate. every single one. and most other video games for that matter.
Your entire argument boils down to "if Navi doesn't tell you to go somewhere, you're not supposed to go there". I guess you're never supposed to play any of the minigames or engage any of the other side content. Anything that you aren't directly told to do is blasphemy. Surely they devs never anticipated anyone ever trekking off the beaten path, or playing the game a second time in a different way. What a moronic little world you live in.
i never brought up navi. i brought up how moronic it is to do the shadow temple without the lens of truth, as well as doing the water temple without the bow n arrow. actual gameplay. on top of that, going into an area and getting a cutscene where you are now involved in the areas events, and then deciding no, you're now going to the other side of the game world is no different than playing MM and hopping in and out of the dungeons and saying you can complete those in an order too, oooooh how nonlinear.
ironic that you would bring up side content when doing the dungeons in that wacked out order doesn't allow you to open all the chests and fully explore the dungeons when you're there.
you're all over the place because you're hyper focused on this game and willing to die on homosexual hill for your autistic idea that this game is somehow more nonlinear than other zeldas where you can do the same shit and cry how nonlinear they are.
>actual gameplay.
Like using Farore's Wind as it was intended, and skipping parts of a dungeon you'd rather not do to save time and hassle? Something the developers clearly intended, because they put the item in the game? You've filled your diaper enough, get out of here.
as previously mentioned, it's obvious that farore's wind was meant as a checkpoint for dungeons. google "oot what's the point of farores wind" and see what everyone has to say about it anon. it's genuine game mechanic is that of a dungeon checkpoint.
>no argument
>just google it bro, listen to the hivemind, the hivemind is always right
soulless npc moron
you claimed that farores wind was intended to be used a certain way. i called bullshit, and directed you see that literally everyone else uses it as a checkpoint. but for some autistic reason, you think your other way is the intended way, even though no one else uses it that way.
You told me to google some shit to prove that you were right. That isn't an argument, you're a moronic homosexual. By the way, if you google "OoT Farore's Wind skips" there are literal hundreds of forum posts and sources about using it to bust the game wide open. You can even travel between different dungeons using it. You are a noob.
lmao
mad
whole thread hates you mate and you don't make sense. lol.
I'm playing this game swordless now. Just got to Bongo Bongo without the Lens of Truth. I can stun him just fine without seeing him, but I cannot damage him without a sword. I've tried:
>megaton hammer jump attack
>megaton hammer normal attack
>megaton hammer crouch stab
>din's fire
>bombs
>bombchus
Nothing works. What do?
>spirit conventionally being played last
Really? I always did Shadow last. Though I think I do recall some places where you're "supposed" to have the hover boots but it's totally beatable without them.
I think they swapped which one is supposed to be played last mid-way through development or something. The menu puts Shadow after Spirit (songs, medallions) but the Kakariko Village cutscene and Navi's hints put it before. You also generally need the Lens of Truth to navigate the desert. Technically you can walk the correct path without it, but pretty much everyone will leave when the gravestone says you need some truth-seeing item to proceed. But one reason you might do Spirit before Shadow is Gerudo Valley has been locked off all game, so seeing it open as an adult it's natural you'd want to explore it. I bet a lot of people at least reached the Haunted Wasteland before they got the Kakariko Village cutscene. Then when you get the Lens of Truth you'd realize that item can help you cross the desert. There's only one place I can think of inside the Spirit Temple that needs Hover Boots, a silver rupee in the air in the room with the boulders. You can get it if you roll off the ledge and jump slash. It's close enough that makes you think you can reach it from the ledge, so even if you don't know there are Hover Boots in the game yet, its positioning encourages you to go for it.
I always do the fire temple after getting the hookshot, I mean you LITERALLY get the hookshot at the foot of the mountain tbh, as for ice cave I like to bring 3 bottles at least because otherwise its annoying
homie nobody hates OoT and nobody ever considered it to be linear. It's after Majoras Mask that Zelda games became linear slop.
>Water temple
This is false, you also require iron boots to enter the dungeon and reach the lower levels to lower the water levels
>guy makes thread
>gets corrected multiple times
>doubles down and calls people moronic despite being proven wrong multiple times
I admire you audacity, but you're still moronic
>despite being proven wrong multiple times
Never happened.
how would you map this for a modern controller? is c-stick as right stick good enough? what about the left over face buttons after A and B?
The gamecube version has x, y, and z function as c buttons so you could probably do something like that as well.
>ocarina of time
>right stick
fricking kids man
>inb4 i meant c buttons!!
no you didn't, you were just born in a post 9/11 world
I didn't say right stick in reference to the c buttons either. You fricked up too.
you said it in reference to nothing, because there's no "right stick" to begin with you moronic wide-eyed zoomer gene trash mutt
right sticks don't exist on modern controllers?
have a nice day man
No way, bro.
The Gamecube port came out in 2002, anon. The Gamecube indeed had a right stick and no one born after 9/11 was playing that version. You sure you're over 18 if you didn't even know the Gamecube had two sticks?
Man they really liked hookshot for some reason. I guess it was an easy way to check for adult without changing the environment
I like how they handled Zora's River. You used to need a Cucco to fly over the first gap as a child, but adult Link is tall enough to just wade the stream and grab the ledge. Really gives you a sense that Link is older now when he's practically stepping over ledges that were too high as a child. Kokiri Forest is another good example. Lots of areas that seemed "normal-sized" before are suddenly tiny. Like try climbing the house and walking across the bridge as an adult. It's like it's been miniaturized.
>You used to need a Cucco to fly over the first gap as a child
No you don't.
>You used to need a Cucco to fly over the first gap as a child
No you can jump on the corner where there is a "sandy" texture
Is any Zelda game actually non-linear before BOTW? I know Link between worlds exists. No, side quests don't count.
>Is any Zelda game actually non-linear before BOTW?
Yes, Ocarina of Time.
Zelda1 and Alttp are more non-linear than OoT but there are still some restrictions. Only BotW allows you to do any order or skip them
OOT lets you do some adult dungeons out of order
MM is fairly linear unless you want to get the bow, leave, then get the goron mask, leave, unlock epona using the powder keg, get the hookshot, and then you can go do stone tower or any other dungoen.
WW lets you do either the wind or earth temple first
TP does not give you freedom on how you tackle dungeons
SS does not give you freedom
ALTTP lets you do most dark world dungeons in any order
I think you can do a few dungeons out of order in LA
Minish Cap is fairly linear
FSA is a level based game
I have not played PH or ST so I can't comment on their linearity
You've already mentioned ALBW
A Link to the Past was very open-ended with the Dark World dungeons. I think you could do them in any order actually.
I'm pretty sure a few dark world entrances that you need to enter for dungeons are under dark rocks which requires the golden gauntlets from the bandit's hideout. Turtle rock also requires the fire rod.
alttp dark world is non linear after the first dungeon, actually you just need the hammer and can do everything else out of order.
I remember playing through the game and trying to go as out of order as possible.
The sealed palace romhack in particular actually required the usage of farores wind in its revised water temple.
>linearity is… LE BAD
no. OoT is perfectly fine played as intended
>Forest, Fire and Water Temples mirror the beginning of your quest as a child
>Shadow Temple is where you see the dark underbelly of Hyrule hidden right next to the friendly village you’ve spent so much time in
>Spirit Temple is the final stretch as you travel to Ganondorf’s homeland, explore the temple as both a child and an adult, and defeat Twinrova for the final medallion
It’s a perfect game
>I am... LE NPC
Playing the game how you want was intended.
A lot of these seem to have a "but", which proves it's NOT as open as you think it is if you need a workaround or need mastery and knowledge of the game before hand.
>A lot of these seem to have a "but"
Where?
>if you need a workaround or need mastery and knowledge of the game before hand.
Why is this a bad thing? Why do you give a frick how the game is experienced by some homosexual 7 year old child in 1998?
>if you need a workaround or need mastery and knowledge of the game before hand.
The only one that could be considered a work around is the Water Temple one. All the rest you could just simply go there and do the dungeon. You're talking out of your ass.
i mean per OP the only you can "just simply go there and do the dungeon" is Ice Cavern, not even one of the real main dungeons.
>bro you just like, can't go and do fire, forest or water because you need to spend 2 minutes walking to kakariko and getting the hookshot first, like uhggg, so linear
have a nice day
OP might be going too far, but there are several times you can do things out of order with 0 glitches and where it's extremely natural even for a first-time player. You can do Forest Temple, Fire Temple, and Ice Cavern in any order, and it's probably no coincidence these three dungeons are close to where you got the Spiritual Stones as a child. It's natural to want to investigate places you've been to as an adult to see how they've changed. Remember the first thing you see when you leave the Temple of Time: the glowing red ring around Death Mountain. I'm sure there were a lot of kids who wanted to see just what the frick was happening there. Then Navi's hint will tell you how to get the Hookshot so you can cross the bridge in Death Mountain Crater (if you didn't get it on your way there, since you have to go through Kakariko Village anyway). You don't need any other items for Fire Temple.
Thanks for reminding me I’ve been needing to play this on my switch, might be fun to play around over the break.
I'm sorry, did I enter a reality where this game just came out?
I just tried it, OP is right. I used it in the room with the descending platforms and the keese in water temple, and instead of setting a warp point there it set a point back at the dungeon entrance. I also tried in the room with the whirlpool with that dragon sculpture in the water, same thing.
I just tried it, you’re wrong. Using the warp point moved me 5 steps over in the same room.
>inb4 3D version
>posts a static image of the 3DS version
whoa btfo
>OP now flaseflagging to seem like less of a moron
W-Why is everyone so extremely angry? Calm down guys...
it's just one homosexual zelda hater from /vr/ that found the thread and is shitting it up with false info as usual
Anon that homosexual is OP
no, it's (You)
the FW argument is kinda moronic and I feel like I'm just giving in to bait but for those who are curious, since I like this game and currently have nothing better to do.
please don't mind the poor quality.
I appreciated it. It's like the difference between calling a guy a homosexual and posting video proof to his bible-thumping family: sometimes going the extra mile is just funnier
>using it to return to the start of the dungeon
Thanks for proving my point incel.
Ironically, I think a lot of people who realize OOT's open-ness use it maliciously in arguments to devalue its more linear elements.
Just like OOT captured a sense of exploration and adventure without actually, literally giving you a massive span of world to walk across, it's entirely (hypothetically) possible for a Zelda game with a more locked-down progression to still create the sense that you are proceeding because of the tools you have gathered and not because you've checked off story triggers. The fact that so few people questioned OOT's intended order for so long should prove my point further; when people feel satisfied that the way they're being directed is also the place their new tools will be useful, they don't question whether those tools were strictly NECESSARY.
The problem you're describing is item-based progression vs quest-based. In OOT almost ALL your progress in the overworld is dictated by what real, useful items you find. There are very very few arbitrary story flags blocking your progress.
>I can't get into the temple until I find the Hookshot
Compare that to MM where instead the vast majority of your progress is tied to completing arbitrary quests to open your path to each temple.
>I can't get into the temple until I find the hookshot, SO THAT I can get the rest of the Zora eggs and be taken there
I'm not bashing MM here, I understand why it is the way it is, but flag-locked, quest-based progression like that became a lot more common as the series went on. Look to a game like WW which frequently roadblocks you in a VAST OPEN SEA.
>item-based progression
Yeah, that's the same as NES Zelda. You can stumble into Level-6 and beat the miniboss but you can't progress without the ladder from some other dungeon. Then there are some dungeons you can't even find the entrance to unless you have the right item. It's all by design. Having to leave a temple in OoT because you don't have the right item isn't a problem, that's how it's supposed to be. That's why in you get the warp song before you enter any temple so you can easily come back. In the original game you couldn't even warp until you got the flute so it was more annoying to enter a dungeon then find out you can't beat it and have to come back later.
>Having to leave a temple in OoT because you don't have the right item isn't a problem, that's how it's supposed to be
I don't like having to use anecdotal/subjective arguments, like this, but the issue isn't the game design, it's the users.
For the inexperienced, they won't do anything reliably that they're not at least nudged towards, and the game never really cues you to leave a dungeon partway through. If they get stuck, they might, but then what are their odds of finding their way into another dungeon unprompted?
For the more experienced, they might at least acknowledge the possibility of leaving the dungeon, but very few games- within Zelda and in general- give players a reason to leave partway through. Indeed, even in OOT itself, if you travel as you're directed by the plot, you won't ever run into a dungeon you can partly complete but have to come back later to finish.
Only the highly experienced explicitly looking to test the limits have the drive to leave a dungeon partway through AND the knowledge of how to get to each.
>If they get stuck, they might, but then what are their odds of finding their way into another dungeon unprompted?
Not quite what you are saying, but as a kid, my friend couldn't find the Hookshot, so he ended up wandering around and ended up inside the Fire Temple instead, beating it.
That's what's great about offering non-linearity. If you get stuck, it's okay. Because you can go somewhere else to make progress another way.
Game makes you do the first three dungeons as Child Link in order. Game tells you where to go next as Adult Link. If you find yourself in any other dungeon wondering if you can't progress further because maybe you shouldn't be there, that shouldn't be a thought and is entirely on you because the game is fricking telling you to go to Kokiri Forest.
The game tells you to go to Kakariko when you become an adult, not Kokiri Forest.
OoT does a pretty good job sending the player down the pipeline of intended dungeon order. I have never heard of a new player of the game finding themselves in the Water Temple, and leaving because they can't progress, and then doing the Forest Temple and having that a-ha moment of "oh sweet this is the item that's gonna help me progress in that other dungeon." The game directly tells you to go check up on Saria, and as the player you should be inclined to check out the area you started out in. And what's more, you'd naturally want to progress like you did as Child Link. Kokiri Forest-->Mt. Doom-->Zora's Domain.
What I'm trying to get at is the developers intentions were not to have players go wiilly nilly as Adult Link entering and exiting temples without completing them. There's a very, very, very defined and articulated way the game prompts you to complete the dungeons in. Only children who can't read and lack pattern recognition would give anything but the Forest Temple an honest try after the timeskip. 99% of people are not moronic enough to go straight to the Fire Temple/Water Temple when Adult Link starts. It's a hypothetical and only someone like DSP would do it on their first playthru.
By that logic you would never get Epona because nobody tells you to go to Lon Lon Ranch at any time. Yes, Shiek and Navi both tell you to find Saria but Death Mountain glowing red is the first thing you see when you exit the Temple of Time. It piques a person's interest. There are plenty of kids who would want to check it out, even while knowing the story wants them to go to the Lost Woods next. Having an intended order doesn't preclude exploration. That's why Ganon's Castle is explicitly inaccessible, because they know anybody seeing Hyrule Castle Town in a state of ruin would naturally want to check what happened to the castle. That's why there's a broken bridge in Death Mountain Crater, because someone might get there early and not have the Hookshot yet. Hell why do you think Shiek blocks the pedestal at the Temple of Time until you beat Forest Temple? Because it's a natural inclination to return there, and if Shiek weren't blocking it, at least some kids would see the A prompt and put the sword back to see what happens, even knowing Navi wants them to find Saria. If nobody is going to go off the beaten path then you don't need these checks in the first place.
There's also no reason to give you a warp song if you never leave the dungeons, and that's exactly why there are no warp songs as a kid because you're not intended to leave Dodongo's Cavern or Jabu-Jabu's Belly. Meanwhile Spirit Temple is specifically designed to make you enter it at least three times.
Even when progress isn't item gated, entering a new area, finding that it's too difficult and deciding to come back later is something that happens in tons of video games. That's why I brought up NES Zelda. Yes, the dungeons are clearly numbered. But for every kid who found Level-6 and went "I haven't found Level-5 yet, I'm not supposed to be here" there was definitely a kid who went "I'll try Level-6 anyway." Do you really think only children who can't count yet would do this?
This series peaked with Twilight Princess
I'd say it peaked with Majora's Mask although Twilight Princess was FRICKING KINO only the FIRST time I played it back in December 2006. It's okay in future playthroughs, if Nintendo ever remasters it they must topatch the shit out of that fricking awful tutorial.
Anon, they did remaster it
no way, either leave it as is or reimagine the entire game, no half measures
I thought I respected this game until I replayed it recently and realized its a complete baby game
People actually listened to navi? I've always ignored him
>him
Navi is a tiny fairy girl, maybe that'll change your mind. You better pay attention to her unless a frog or something gets her, and then she'd go NO!!! PLEASE!!!! I DON'T WANT TO DIE!!!!!! IVE BEEN ALIVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS WITH MY CUTE LITTLE BUTT!!!! I DON'T WANT TO DIE TODAY!!! NOOOOOOOOO!!!
MY TINY BUTTHOLE! MY CUTE LITTLE vegana!!!! NO!!!! ITS NOT POSSIBLE, I DON'T WANT TO DIE LIKE THIS! I CAN'T DIE TODAY!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
I CAN'T DIE IN THIS DISGUSTING FROG ITS SO GROSS AND ONLY LIVES A FEW YEARS IVE BEEN ALIVE FOR CENTURIES THIS CAN'T HAPPEN TO ME PLEASE PLEASE DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN TO ME
Holy shit, holy God, this would be so fricking hot. Jesus christ. Oh, just the THOUGHT of her cute fairy life being snuffed out. God damn, what do you think her final thoughts would be? Do you think she'd piss and shit herself in her final moments, realizing her cute, innocent fairy life was coming to an end? I wonder if she'd shriek in terror as she realizes her entire life built to this sad, pathetic moment, and died in pure, unadulterated agony as she was dissolved by acids, thrashing in ungodly pain until her last moments.
Nintendo...they GET me!!!!
Jesus, I haven't been this hard in fricking years, something about imagining loose little b***hes lives ending as they get mulched into shit and gore drives me fricking wild, the waste of their potential and little bodies and warm snatches is the hottest fricking shit man i hope Ocarina of Time has more vore in it like this it just makes me SO HORNY FRICK
NGHHH, IMAGINE HER FACE, SHE'S ABOUT TO BURST INTO TEARS OF HORROR
THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING BETTER THAN WATCHING THE EXACT MOMENT SOMEONE INNOCENT REALIZES THEY ARE ABOUT TO DIE
i think when people complain about the linearity it has a lot less to do with the order of dungeons and a lot more to do with the first part of the game where you aren't allowed to do anything fun before you talk to a bunch of buttholes and sit through 14 years of cutscenes
that's the linear part people have an issue with i think, not the predetermined labyrinth order
No, you can hear people complaining quite vocally nowadays that OOT was the start of "linear Zelda" because it had story gating AT ALL. Because there were "dungeons" and you sometimes used an item you got in one dungeon to do another, it was """linear""".
>linear bad nonlinear good
Why do people treat this notion like it is gospel?
Because nonlinear games became easier to make.
You just make a game world, make a small handful of gameplay tasks, and scatter variations of those tasks throughout the world. You don't have to design the world with your progression in mind because progression is automated and numeric. You don't have to make a true variety of gameplay tasks, since any given player might miss a decent chunk of them anyway; better to make a few and ensure the player sees everything the game has to offer no matter where they go. You don't have to work on your game's pacing or presentation, because it'll be seen from so many angles and played in so many ways that you couldn't possibly predict them all. If the pacing is bad, the player could've chosen to go faster/slower, or done it in a different order. If the gameplay is repetitive, the player could have simply gone and done something else, and it wouldn't have even been an interruption.
>But wait, that's reasons people would want to MAKE nonlinear games, why would people DEFEND them?
Because the people defending nonlinear games are mostly shills and normalgays whose entire moral compass is "what am I being shilled this week" plus a dash of "I know this brand".
The remainder are people who grew up when words like "hallway simulator" were being thrown around with wild abandon and came away with the faulty assumption that a lack of choice was the only problem with those games.
Honestly might replay OoT through the pc port sometimes soon been wanting to play it again
I'll miss the style of games pre-botw.
Not into speed running no thanks
>speed running
What does this have to do with speed running?
ocarina of time gets a good rap for having hot gerudo chicks
I often beat at lot of spirit before shadow as a kid simply because shadow terrified me.
I always did spirit before shadow because I wandered into the fortress after getting the long shot then went looking for the "eye of truth" after getting stopped in the haunted wasteland. I did the well then went back to the spirit temple.
Hang on, you went to the desert without lens?
Also I like this post.
I also think Lens is a tech hack method of getting god powers. Something evil.
Yeah I went to the desert without the lens and then went to go find the lens after I couldn't finish crossing it.
no I meant that I went to the haunted wasteland and turned around. Cool infographic though thanks for posting this.
Goemon >>> OOT
as a kid i naturally did spirit before shadow but was annoyed that the medallions were out of order so in subsequent play throughs i did shadow then spirit.
Zelda has a good rap though?
>Ocarina of Time gets a bad rap for being "linear"
I have never heard of anyone complaining about this.
I really really like the sound the magic meter makes when it fills up as it gets doubled. It's the most satisfying sound in video game history.
When standard controller hacking is at the point where you can code the game into minesweeper, you have a problem there.
That said, minecraft can literally do this without hacking or sophisticated inputs.
Does Water Temple not require Iron Boots?
Shouldn't it be possible to beat Jabu before DC? Jabu requires a slingshot to get through the first room, and there are no bomb puzzles. I play a lot of OOTR and afaik you can pick up Ruto without strength upgrades either.
There are rocks blocking the path through Zora River, which you need the Bomb Bag to blow up.
Technically you can get the bombs and leave to "complete" Jabu Jabu before Dodongo's Cavern, and the spirtual stone acquired text actually changes to reflect that
Are there not early bombchus you can obtain somewhere prior? I know 40 skulltulas give them but I don't believe you can get 40 without boomerang as child.
Not without glitches or WW
There are Chus in the BotW but Vine Clip is frame perfect trick iirc
There's a nighttime bombchu shop in the castle town alley so I think you can get them. Also not a legitimate way, but you can clip into the zora river warp from the lost woods before you get the scale, then you bypass the rocks entirely.
You might be able to reach most rooms with the diving depth afforded by the gold scale, but I don't know how you would handle the room below the central pillar without iron boots since you wouldn't be able to hookshot the switch.
>There's a nighttime bombchu shop in the castle town alley so I think you can get them
You need the Adult Wallet. I don't think its possible to get 10 GS at that point as a child
nvm I forgot you can get Bugs and go around to a bunch of Bean Patches
The bombchu shop doesn't open until you get bombchus
You can do this which I guess seems fairly legitimate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyUyCQL5-_U
I don't know if you can complete it legitimately without iron boots though
I don't think you can complete it though. I think you need the boots to get down to Ruto at the bottom
I have never once heard anyone call OOT linear.
Ask people why they think BOTW is better than it sometime.
Instead of trying to figure out a way to blow up the Zora River rocks early, wouldn't it be easier to find a way to just get around them?
I think the wall/rocks are too wide to do a sidejump jumpslash
Generally that's a loss of time to blow them up or go around them.
Just go through them.
The rocks are a suggestion.
The is no rock.
Just use your real life lens of truth here.
I'm beginning to see why the King of Hyrule shunned the Sheikah.
I would play the frick out of a sheik spin off where she has to route temples efficiently with more parkour. Tomb Raider meets Metal Gear meets Zelda.
I kinda see where they were going with the temples in TotK, but they were too easy to route any crap. It's more fun when you have to route carefully and meticulously.
Also, does the yiga clan being able to use spells to transform into girls, etc pretty much prove that sheik is actually male with a penis and not merely just a crossdressing Zelda?
if you saw any confirmation that the yiga had pussies while disguised as women, we played very different games.
But they also shrunk?
There was clear body modification.
Hell they got a male voice after transforming back into Yiga?
I think that confirms that Sheik is male and not a girl.
Not completely unrelated. She's essentially using the same magic the Yiga specifically are using.
It is literally canon.
The Yiga were the sheikah of the old pre-botw timeline that were shunned by the King. They would be using the same magic and tech that the old OoT sheikah would be using.
>She's essentially using the same magic the Yiga specifically are using.
It’s an entirely unspecified magic, one that is more like an illusion spell for the Yiga
>The Yiga were the sheikah of the old pre-botw timeline that were shunned by the King. They would be using the same magic and tech that the old OoT sheikah would be using.
No they aren’t, not only has TotK shown that the BotW continuity is completely different from the rest of the games but the Yiga only formed after the Sheikah were banned from using their tech, which would still be tens of thousands of years later and more advanced than anything early on in the timeline
If you just want trans Zelda to be your headcanon then say that instead of jumping through hoops to justify it
Oh and the sheikah of BotW/TotK are not real Sheikah. The only real one is Purah because she actually is involved with the magical culture of the old sheikah. That also explains why her eyes are RED.
Remember, we never see Robbie's eyes. We never see the Yiga's. We see red eyes with Sheik and Impa in OoT and even SS (but NOT in BotW/TotK).
So Purah is basically seeing hell itself and the rest of the Sheikah are completely unaware that she's bordering a possessed demon in this state.
That also explains why her eyes are a lot browner in AoC before she's fully invested into the magical knowledge and understanding - the demon hasn't possessed her at this point.
Also note: Veran, Vaati and other helpers of Ganon all seem to have RED eyes.
The sheikah were basically satanists weren't they?
I thought most of the schizo Zelda theorists died out
Why would they arbitrarily change this one specific thing for her specific design at the last minute before releasing the game?
It's clearly very important to the point where no other Sheikah in BotW/TotK appears to have red eyes, even her sister.
Why do you think the shadow temple exists as it is?
Or are you forgetting that it was technological progress that caused the Hiroshima bombings ultimately at the end? - the victims being the inspiration for redeads (look it up).
The sheikah are evil wizards that caused their appearance in Shadow Temple/ under Kak and evil magic again caused their appearance in Market.
It's commentary on technological progress and it's horror.
>does this group of people from tens of thousands of years later in a completely different continuity prove my headcanon?
You tell me
Great thread. I am tired of OOT being shitted on. It should be worshipped every Sunday morning, unironically speaking.
I always used to do ice cavern first because I was doing the BGS trade seq before forest.
I had lot of fun doing ER dungeons overall
Their dungeons are lacking something.
So are TotK's and BotW's too.
I think TP did it right for some of them though.
It's the mystique and spectacle of the place. Where you begin to wonder "what is this place for" and "why is it even here?".
You got that more with the Citadel though and the library.
I think DS does it better 2bh.
>not doing it in order of the manga
SHIGGY DIGGY DOO
OOT is the greatest game ever made because I have very fond memories of it from my childhood and play it yearly still. Any who disagree are simply wrong. No I have no evidence to back my claims up, you'll have to shoot me to silence me regardless. The Souls series is enjoyable but new, therefore inferior
I'm not reading the rest of the thread so I'll just assume someone has already pointed out how moronic this whole thing is when the most obvious order is also the most convenient order.
What makes stuff like Metroid or even A Link to the Past compelling is that the non-linearity also allows you to save time, the whole game and its structure feels like a puzzle for you to put together.
In Ocarina of Time the puzzle is solved, the most efficient way to play the game is to follow the arrows.
Nobody has pointed that out because that isn't the reason people like to do things in a nonlinear fashion.
also nonlinearity isn't inherently fun
But yes it is though?
How many playthroughs of A Link to the Past have you done where you do Turtle Rock before Ice Palace simply because the Turtle Rock item makes Ice Palace way easier?
That's the kind of thing that makes non-linearity fun.
You do things in different orders because it recontextualizes them. It gives the entire game a different cadence to do any given major segment sooner or later than you usually would.
>the most efficient way to play the game is to follow the arrows.
Read the thread. The most efficient way is HIGHLY important to it.
Because you should technically go to bottom of the well first for bombchus.
Also ignore the bodies of tormented prisoners and enemies of the state on your way there. They get what they fricking deserve. Even not-Zelda looks at them with bitter disdain.
Woops, wrong pic.
Not that Zelda! This one.
Nice RED eyes there.
Spoilers btw.
Man, no Zelda feels as punished by Ganon as OoT Zelda.
Even 100 years of locking him in a castle or many years as a dragon doesn't do it as well as how punished she feels as Sheik.
I actually kinda hate how she transforms into normal Zelda after you get the light arrows. I kinda wish she just stayed as Sheik.
Shulk is a guy
see
I'm no longer convinced zelda is in a female body there.
And?
Because I would.
You can't go to the well before doing the 3 child dungeons and beating Forest Temple.
Maybe if you're naive and do not possess your own lens of truth.
Maybe you'd like Kings Field a lot more than Zelda
I will forever be fascinated at the evil of the sheikah personally, which was never truly elaborated on the particulars of their evil - other than seeing Shadow Temple and it's "suggestive" reality.
Whenever I see link saving the day and Zelda being happy in any subsequent Zelda game I get the feeling of - should Hyrule be saved or are they just the lesser evil at this stage?
I will never truly know. All I know is that they really are the most horrifying machiavelian monarchy state I've seen in a game. The people in it just seem to pretend that everything's fine in it and Hyrule is dandy and that they're not sacrificing their children to demise in the pipework under it.
At least our society has the decency to just do it blatantly in front of you.
linearity is a good thing albeit
Nah it's bad.
But so is being open ended.
You need obstacles and routing, but not so much that it becomes linear.
I actually liked the depths of TotK a lot for this reason. But I kinda wish it was more claustrophobic and evil at times.
It just feels like an empty cave a lot of the time.
It could be way more like a dark monastery or like catacombs.
>You need obstacles and routing, but not so much that it becomes linear.
games that people describe as linear have this and always have. it's only open slop that doesn't. in the end open world games feel more linear than linear games. it's pathetic how the freedom exposes how bad the game truly is.
Oh frick off, Elden Ring proved how to do open world right.
You have to have BOTH linearity and openness though and it needs to feel lived in and fitting for the setting.
The shrines in TotK are fricking awful. Just the worst.
>using elden ring as an example of anything positive
Possibly the greatest game since DS but whatever.
?
>empty fields to waste your time that connect legacy dungeon and catacombs aka actual content
how is that open world done right? the catacombs should be accessed from a menu and the rest of the game should be organized into generally linear series of interconnected levels.
The game benefits from being "open world" in no way.
Well you just don't like Open World games if you just see nothing but empty fields.
Compared to BotW it was jam packed with actual interesting enemies.
whats in the fields besides nothing. name one fricking thing in the fields that isn't just a waste of frickin time
you are a moron. the Elden Ring map is shit
I'm happy with a game that is linear (in that there is only one order to the levels) so long as it is not completely locked down in what strategies I have. Player expression through gameplay > player expression through the order of things they choose to do.
players should be punished for playing video games instead of being in the wage cage.
It's what Hyrule would do, that's for sure.
Yeah, technically you can, but it requires running from dungeon to dungeon. And at that point, why would you do that for anything but for the fact that you can?