>series about exploring dungeons and finding cool weapons that open up more of the game as you progress
>botw and totk throws all of this out and focuses on padded busy work and gutting the importance of major objectives, dungeons are now inconsequential as well
Why is this allowed
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But the world is so big! I love walking though big empty fields!
Have I ever done this in real life? No, but I know I'll like it because of these games!
>He doesn't enjoy walking around fields irl
ngmi
>series about exploration
>newest games dials it up
>morons complain
Why do they do this?
>exploration
I love walking in straight lines for 10 minutes instead of 45 seconds! Longer = gooder even when I'm doing practically nothing.
its basically the sea in wind waker 2.0
This, these games are very clearly an evolution of Wind Waker. Instead of islands, it's points of interest.
I didn't notice it right away, but it's really easy to draw the comparison when you play Wind Waker after these--you can feel that they were going for the same sort of idea.
For this reason, I think it would be really cool to see a BotW-style game that's about sea-faring.
Zelda 1 was a maze that was cleverly disguised as an open world. This is much harder to design that just dotting stuff around a map.
Because the devs forgot to make the exploration interesting or rewarding. Yeah the map is more biggerer so there's technically more surface area to explore, but there's nothing that really makes it worthwhile for me so I just ended up dropping it halfway through.
Zelda is meant to have a balance between overworld and underworld/dungeon exploration
The later 3D games put too much emphasis on the dungeons/dungeon exploration and the new 3D formula games put too much emphasis on overword exploration
>The later 3D games put too much emphasis on the dungeons/dungeon exploration
I wish this were true. The only 3D Zelda that gave a shit about dungeons besides OoT was Twilight Princess, but the rest of that game held it back.
Majora's Mask was the beginning of overworld and exploring getting a bigger focus over dungeons. Wind Waker is an unfinished game. Skyward Sword is a linear tech demo.
Play New Vegas.
It has also a world "WHERE YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE" but without the devs being morons about it
You also missed OPs point about dungeons.
Shrines would've just been rooms in tutorial/early game dungeons
>"WHERE YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE"
theres invisible walls and max level enemies everywhere you "can" go that isn't on the railroad path and even when you can take them on it's all just empty desert
new vegas is trash
become proficient
>max level enemies everywhere
I'd rather have enemies skill gating the frick out of the game than Botw's universal level scaling and the ability to walk around every enemy camp.
>see lynel
>really early in game
>can just walk past him without him aggro'ing
Nintendo bought too hard into the "go anywhere" meme
This. Todd Howard doesn't know how to make a real game. Just play NV
>I'd rather
Thank God casual idiots won't ever affect game development.
>Thank God casual idiots won't ever affect game development.
Are those... O-o-o-OCTOROKS?! AAAAIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEE HELP ME MIYAMOTO-SAN YOUR GAME IS THE HARDEST GAME IN THE UNIVERSE
But that's just regular, old school progression system.
Using strong enemies to spank the player which can later become just regular enemies
>But that's
moronic game design for a open-world game. Only casual idiots want to be forced to do things. You would literally jump up and clap if the games had stupid shit like color coded enemies.
>You would literally jump up and clap if the games had stupid shit like color coded enemies.
thats literally botw/totk
Literally which enemy has you play Simon Says.
wizzrobes
ice and fire lizalfos
>b-but you don't HAVE to
shut up, moron
>wizzrobes
>ice and fire lizalfos
Okay, where are forced to play Simon Says with them?
you didnt say simon sez you said color coded enemies
>moronic game design for a open-world game.
Not really, what makes you say that?
Why should every enemy scale with you? It just makes everything feel the same
Absolutely does. Organic roadblocks are already in the environment that have multiple ways to bypass them.
> and max level enemies everywhere
Just like BotW. You can go to the castle immediately but good luck finishing the game without proper preparation.
>even when you can take them on it's all just empty desert
So again just like BotW but with a bit more enemy variety?
It's about the open world.
Both games do it right
>So again just like BotW
BotW has world interactivity.
>bit more enemy variety?
Which enemies are supposed to be the good ones?
>BotW has world interactivity.
You can pick up trash in either game if it's that what you're talking about or is it about the climbing?
>obsidishills are so desperate they have to raid threads about completely unrelated games in completely unrelated genres
KEK
Totk literally gives you a party to roam the land with which is packed with fun things to do. This is a cope image made for ass creed games.
i love my soullless blue people
Literally their souls. Gonna complain about link not talking to?
I'd rather be able to see riju's brown tummy walk around with me.
In er you can't see anyone's tummy walking around with you because there are no party members at all.
i didn't say anything about eldin ring I just said I want to see riju's delicious midriff
>Exploration is holding forward while listening to Minecraft music
because at no point after the tutorial do you open up new ways to explore.
TotK is a little better with depths having unique mechanics like gloom annd anctual darkness and the sky being focused around the vehicle making, but there's still plenty of the game that's explored the exact same way as BotW.
Simple things that can improve the formula
>speedy transformation like wolf or goron forms
>underwater gear (preferably an old diving suit but iron boots and a tunic work for me)
>grappling device (hookshot, ww rope item, ss whip)
>climbing gloves for rain
>expanded mount options for different applications (something that jumps, something that flies, something that swims) make them like sand seals so they flee when you hop off them
You already have multiple, different traversal options. Those would be some cool, extra armors sets though.
my issue isn't lack of options it's that you don't unlock new options by exploring.
Yes you do. Every traversal options is gotten from exploring and experimenting.
>i didn't play the game
okay
moron.
wait there is not hookshot in the newer games?
No, several developers even wanted to include it and thought it would be fun but Fujibayashi said no
i hate this guy more every time i hear about him
>but Fujibayashi said no
Sauce right now. Like I couldn't hate this homosexual more than I already do.
>he is even worse than Tanabe. He is - may Allah forgive me for uttering this name - Fujibayashi.
>directed the Oracle games were actually pretty good
>directed Skyward Sword, BotW, and TotK which are the most polarizing games in the series since Wind Waker
This is why you don't just let "ideas" guys run things.
what the frick? thats like the perfect item for an exploration game, now i know 100% im not gonna like this game if i ever try it
No it isn't, all it does is let you gain higher elevation which you can already do.
hookshot is cool
It was cool in lttp and LA, sure.
You are an absolute massive homosexual holy shit. I bet you would argue with a brick wall if it could talk back.
>You are an absolute massive homosexual
No, I don't pretend OoT and its clones are good.
I just like the hookshot didn't say anything about oot
The item that's in OoT?
HOLY SHIT WOW Im so glad they added fire arrows to botw/totk because it was in my ocarina of time video game! Maybe it's just cool on its own homosexual.
What are you even saying? I know OoT is terrible but you don't need to cry about it.
>game filled with options
>have one more option that is a legacy item in the series and supported by members of the dev team
>”TROOOO FAARRRRR”
It's impressive how stupid you are. You're growing to grew up to be a great Fromdrone I bet.
Arguing against one more option in a game with dozens of repeat options doesn’t make any sense
Wasn't arguing anything about that, a moron just said it was the perfect item despite doing nothing special.
It makes sense when you realize he's just a fanboy butthole kneejerking against criticism.
To be fair, it's completely possible to reach a compromise, keeping the open world structure of BotW/TotK while making more complex dungeons that reward the player with specific items useful for exploration and combat.
The same goes for weapons, the player can have a few weapons that degrade slowly but can be repaired at a blacksmith, while also being able to pick up different ones that quickly break but provide useful effects in combat.
Everything else boils down to making the world visually striking and filling it with meaningful activities. Things like shrines could be better incorporated in the world with a more powerful system too, as the way they're handled in BotW/TotK is probably due to hardware limitations more than anything else.
Why's Aonuma look like Shiggy?
They stripped out the vast majority of the fundamentals in favor of yet another lite RPG Ubisoft open world experience filled to the brim with incidental puzzle boxes that only go towards general upgrades rather than any actual cohesion in the game world, dungeons or environments. When they tried to do that for TotK, they then proceeded to turn it into Nuts & Bolts gimmickry where they forgot what actually makes the open world experimentation of BotW unique in favor of constant "go build something" puzzles instead.
Exploration is nothing without structure to give it form and meaning, and they abandoned the structure entirely. And then morons like you eat it up.
SS was controversial enough that Nintendo realized the franchise needed a change. Unfortunately, instead of going back and looking at the older games to remember the fundamentals, they looked at modern open world games like Skyrim and Far Cry 3 instead.
It's not a contradiction that the dev team that designed the most linear Zelda would then make the most flat/open Zelda though. In a way they are the same thing. Neither of them require thoughtful structure. Either don't let the player do anything or let the player do anything. Having to find a balance between freedom and structure requires good game design, which the modern Zelda team has forgotten.
Exploration means 1000 different things.
Personally I don't think most of BotW and TotK are worth exploring. Too much repetition/filler.
The exploration in botw/totk sucks fat ass and I'm sick of people trying to pretend otherwise. There is no exploration without discovery. If all you're discovering is the same garbage over and over again and you know exactly what something entails before you even do it, you're not exploring, you're grinding.
I feel the same.
People were complaining that the OOt formula was outdated and by the time of skyward sword was niche compared to GTA and Assassin's creed. That's why we got the new sandbox formula that sold gangbusters
Every game post Majora's Mask got shittier and shittier, that's not the formula's fault. They riddled the series with gimmicks to the point to this day everyone would rather just play the older games or OoT again.
That may be true, but I remember people lamenting skyward sword as outdated and begging for an open world Zelda. BOTW put Zelda back on the map and helped save Nintendo's fortunes, open world will be the main format, though we should have small installments based on the old formula.
I never liked Skyward Sword, my feelings haven't changed on it at all. The old formula has nothing to do with why that game is garbage and I'm tired of people assuming that's the main reason why it's the worst 3D Zelda in the series. There is SO MUCH MORE that is just fricking awful and tedious about that goddamn game, I couldn't even finish it.
>The old formula has nothing to do with why that game is garbage
Yes it does. It's OoT 3.0.
4.0. WW and TP were 2.0 and 3.0 already.
TP was 2.0. WW isn't like OoT, it has a focus on overworld exploration, items have actual utility, and there's barely any of the shitty 3D Zelda dungeons for casual morons.
>'s always the developers' fault.
That's why SS is OoT 3.0, another shitty game for literal morons.
>it has a focus on overworld exploration
FRICK YOU, hero, you go where I fricking tell you to go and FRICK YOU MORE If you think about trying to veer from that path.
>WW
>items have actual utility
>barely any dungeons for casual morons
How many drugs are you even on, the "exploration" is by far the worst in the series btw.
have actual utility
Yes, they are the most integrated into the combat system.
>barely any dungeons for casual morons
Very yes, there's only 5 instead of 8 dogshit ones like OoT and TP.
>Yes it does.
No. It's always the developers' fault.
They had two great games in the n64, but repeatedly failed to improve or ended up adding more intrusive gimmicks.
Look at the difference between MM's Transformation Masks and TP's Wolf Link. Same core gimmick, but executed way worse.
Skyward Sword just sucked dick, full stop. Exactly what the dude was saying, Zelda was already dead at that point.
about exploring dungeons and finding cool weapons that open up more of the game as you progress
Shame the series stopped being that when Aonuma took over. The dungeons became puzzle amusement park rides and the weapons became puzzle tools.
I think when I got the fricking beyblade weapon in Twilight Princess was when I for the first time when playing a game realized how stupid something was. Games past you'd get actual real weapons, then the top? It was the fact that part of it's purpose was to climb walls specifically made for the top. Came off as such an obvious thing who's only purpose was to get you to new areas of the game. Sure prior unlocks do this, but would still have other uses and could expand gameplay.
Incoming defense force posts from switch gays that never played OoT.
>series about exploring intricate worlds worth cool environment interactions and upgrades spread out
>OoT turns it into shitty stereotyped dungeons with a boring world
Why was this allowed?
They catered to stupid children instead of Zelda fans.
>>LttP turns it into shitty stereotyped dungeons with a boring world
FTFY
Emphasis on elemental dungeons began there and anyone who thinks LttPs world design with one town and a claustrophobic amount of trees that stop all movement qualifies as “good” should be disregarded
Except Lttp overworld and dungeons have non-linearity to it.
So does OoT
If you ranked all the Zeldas at that time in order from least linear to most it would look like Zelda 1 -> LttP -> Ocarina -> Zelda 2 -> LA
>So does OoT
Doing the Spirit or Shadow temple out of order doesn't make any of the overworld or dungeons not linear.
you can do fire temple before forest
You can also do Forest or Fire in either order, or Water before Fire after Forest, or Spirit immediately after Water and Forest skipping Fire for later
Yes, OoT is terrible game. How does that fix the shit overworld and dungeons?
So this isn’t about the nonlinear, you just don’t like the game at all
>OoTgay doesn't know what non-linearity means
Amazing. Fromdrone levels of stupid.
And now you’re just arguing for the sake of it
You're an idiot. Doing some shitty levels out of order has nothing to do with the individual design of them.
We were talking about the nonlinearity of the games themselves, not the dungeon layouts
I wasn't. Only OoTgays have this cope since it's impossible to defend that garbage overworld and dungeons.
When did you come into the discussion?
The moment we were talking about non-linearity.
No, I mean link to your first post in the chain, because the entire back and forth has been about the non linearity of the games themselves
>to your first post in the chain,
Where it talks about non-linearity, and then OoTgays cope by pretending you can do some shitty levels out of order change the structure of how the areas are designed.
>Lttp dungeons have non-linearity
not really. Skull Woods's first half, yes. But none of those other dungeons.
>actions and upgrades spread out
>nuzelda Black folk pretend alttp and la don't exist so they can blame oot for things that it didn't exist
*didn't invent
something that bothers me about botw is that the devs had about 2 decades to look at RPG quest design and NPC interaction and learn from it.
But they didn't. All of Botw's npcs are flat and all the quests are fetch quests. And again, Botw's devs regressed because even N64 Majora's Mask had more complex and interesting quests.
>devs had about 2 decades to look at RPG quest design and NPC interaction and learn from it.
Nintendo don't look at other games, they're not going to learn from the industry.
It came out last week that someone at Retro made a game inspired by Portal, and the Nintendo guys in the meeting didn't know what the frick Portal even was.
still wouldn't excuse them from writing characters and creating questlines more basic and less interesting than Majora's Mask.
BotW has much better characters than MM.
It's true. You don't know much about character writing.
BotW’s characters are just anime tropes and OoT pastiches
>just anime tropes and OoT pastiches
That's why I wasn't impressed with MM.
Nu-Zelda was inspired by Elder Scrolls and Shadow of the Colossus. There are a few Ubisoft tropes with a unique twist. A large part of the open world stuff was made by Monolith who are more familiar with open world stuff.
It was actually inspired by New Vegas> Go to bed, Todd.
A ToTK with OoT or even TP dungeons would be a 9.8/10 game GUARANTEED.
Aonuma mentioned RDR2 during the development, stop smoking.
majoras mask had better quests because their were only like 3 in the game. Botw would be the greatest game of all time if it had quests as sovlful as majoras mask. Also, all of majoras mask takes place in a tiny area. That's why its so well designed. Open world meme ruins literally everything about zelda.
>series about exploring dungeons and finding cool weapons
Hell yeah I love BOTW
I like nu-zelda but durability cripples the ability to have great shrine loot. I like the shrine puzzles though in botw/totk.
>series about exploring dungeons
Gas all OOTgays and their need for linear corridors with Simon Says trash.
no u
>OLD GOOD NEW BAD
Can you even name a single time when this wasn't objectively true? The GTA remasters, I guess.
I just wanna know which moron within Nintendo suggested weapon durability should become a major mechanic.
>Dude I just love the exploration of Wind Waker
>do a side quest in totk
>finish it
>hey thanks now can you get me 20 or 30 of these other fricking things while youre at it then maybe ill give you the real reward
>help the troupe for the great fairy upgrades
>those fricking upgrade prices for everything
Tears of the kingdom only feels big because it layers more busywork into things just like OP said. In the time spent doing fetch quests the devs could have spent time making actual dungeons filled with unique monsters and cool loot to find, you know, like a fricking adventure game the series is supposed to be.
Reminder Nintendo delayed Zelda for a year because of Elden Ring.
Meanwhile*
Nice Nintendbonus
>Reminder Nintendo delayed Zelda for a year because of Elden Ring.
Elden Ring couldn't even compete with BotW, never mind TotK. That shit didn't even show up on Nintendo's radar.
Whatever you gotta tell yourself
I enjoyed BotW at the time for what it was, but I hoped that future installments would at least return dungeons/items in some way. I'll be disappointed if that's all these games will be moving forward, and probably won't really play them anymore. I'm also not going to have a fit about it however.
The potential after botw felt limitless but they really just reused the same map and put gmod in it
I like every single 3D Zelda game. Feels good to not be in either camp.
Yup me too. Totk is my favourite game of all time. I hope it beats out that generic crpg bear sex game.
OOT and MM should be considered a separate franchise from the rest of the Zelda games as they are all so shit compared to OOT and MM.
Why are you lumping MM with OoT? It's much better than that trash.
Just play your randomizer old man and let us have fun with the good games in peace
cringe edit and I love BOTW and TOTK
What would even be considered a nonlinear dungeon in the context of Zelda. Multiple objectives in either order? Just being able to go back to previous rooms? Because the latter applies to basically every dungeon isn’t the series. I think the only actual “linear” dungeon is the Temple of the Ocean King which is literally a straight line to the bottom
Literally the first Zelda game. There's multiple different routes to take through each dungeon.
>There's multiple different routes to take through each dungeon.
There’s different paths but you can’t complete the dungeons in different ways. The boss room is always in the same location and you take those different paths because of things like locked doors or walls blocking your straightforward progression. By that logic every dungeon qualifies as nonlinear save for TotOK as mentioned previously
>There’s different paths
That's non-linearity, the whole point of a adventure exploration game. The player is free to play as he wants.
>enter dungeon
>come across a room with three entrances, one locked and two open
>one room leads to a bunch of enemies, kill them and get the map
>the other room has a hidden key revealed by pushing a rock
>use that key to open the locked door in the previous room and continue through the dungeon
That’s not “free to play as he wants” nonlinearity, that’s being given two options with one correct choice and being led down a path by the designer, which applies to every dungeon in the series prior to BOTW/TOTK which instead show you four/five options you can do in any order with minimal hassle
>enter dungeon
In which there are multiple, different paths to take.
Something that applies to every Zelda dungeon
It doesn't.
Beyond the Temple of the Ocean King which is designed to be a straight line to the bottom I can’t think of any that don’t present you with options for rooms to enter
>I can’t think of any
You should play a 3D Zelda game then. They're 90% straight lines.
No, those still have multiple rooms.
Really? What alternative route exists in the Deku Tree?
There’s two entrances in the central area with a third blocked off by webs
Except there's not. You go through the same linear sequence of events each time.
>tutorial dungeon is linear
Your claim was that a dungeon is nonlinear if it has multiple paths, which amounts to rooms you do in order to gain access to other rooms as you work your way down one set path. The first dungeon in Zelda 1 does not have multiple outcomes, you are always going to end up fighting Aquamentus at the end
dungeon is linear
And which dungeon has non-linearity?
All of them by your standards, since they all present the player with multiple rooms but only one is the correct way forward. There’s no point in putting nonlinearity on a pedestal if the end result always ends up being the same and your choices don’t actually matter
>All of them by your standards,
None of them, another room is not non-linear.
So no dungeon is nonlinear, since all of them follow a set path
Except that don't, and there's already an example of that.
BOTW/TOTK “dungeons” are outliers and not representative of any dungeons in the past
Those are dungeons, and you seem to think 3D Zelda used to have good level design.
I always liked exploring the overworld over dungeon crawling and solving puzzles, so i enjoyed BOTW take of "all overworld, many tiny dungeons"
>finding cool weapons that open up more of the game as you progress
that's Metroid dumbass
that's both moron
BOTW and TOTK are made for the same audience as Roblox.
autistic people? true.
>exploring dungeons and finding cool weapons that open up more of the game as you progress
because some time after the N64 games they instead became a series of using dungeon item X on object Y over and over. hookshoot in OOT can shoot to the obvious targets but also anything made of wood to move faster through areas you dont need it and also kill enemies at range without using ammo or underwater where you cant use the bow. the clawshot in twlight princess can only cling to specific parts of specific dungeons because its a lot easier to design the world without taking all these items into consideration
getting to the gerudo valley is another example. you can get the horse OR use the longshot OR use the hover boots to get over the gap. in twlight princess it would be a cutscene of midna taking 4 pages of text to say "you need to kill these enemies to make a bridge spawn because for some reason the twlight guys love stealing bridges in this game" and then you would track them down on your map that shows you exactly where they are and mash buttons as wolf link because this game is a linear landholding piece of shit
>Hyrule Castle was the most praised dungeon in Botw
>Delay TotK for a year because of Elden Ring
>Didn’t get the memo that everyone loved ER’s legacy dungeons
>Make every new dungeon the equivalent of 4 shrines put together except this time you need to rely on your ally
>Only dungeon like Hyrule Castle… is Hyrule Castle, just remixed.
6 years of nothing.
>>Make every new dungeon the equivalent of 4 shrines put together except this time you need to rely on your ally
fricking sidon would never come to me when i needed him to
Pisses me off that they had two opportunities to create a really cool undead-themed dungeon with Akkala Citadel and missed both times, TOTK being salt in the wound by just turning it into yet another generic cave like the 50 other caves in the game
>Didn’t get the memo that everyone loved ER’s legacy dungeons
I didn't. I understand level design so I know those are trash.
What levels have you made? Any custom maps for shooters or romhacks for older titles?
>What levels have you made?
The ones that aren't DaS2-tier again. In order word, ER.
Can you post examples of what you’ve made?
I already told you, the ones that are linear corridors with terrible and random enemy placement.
You WILL love Wind Waker, You WILL love Wind Waker, You WILL love Wind Waker!!!
using wind magic to lift up medli's dress
Unless the next Zelda is filled with legacy type dungeons like ER I'm not bothering with this series anymore if it's just gonna focus on emergent gameplay and breaking weapons.
>Unless the next Zelda is filled with legacy type dungeons like ER
What? Sterile backdrops of barren rooms to walk through? It's like you zoomers don't understand Zelda at all. Tell us all how the next Zelda should also be "dark". Le Darque. Darky Dark Dark. God you mutts make me ill.
ok homosexual
He didn't even say anything about "dark" you fricking moron.
He complained about a lack of dungeons and the shitty durability system
Do you morons even know what legacy dungeon means?
He said he wanted actual dungeons, not the copypasted locations from ER.
TotK couldn't even have 4 decent dungeons after 6 years of dev time and reusing most of the map, there isn't a single excuse for this.
Don't bother explaining shit to them, nu Zelda fans don't care about the older games.
>know what legacy dungeon means?
A bad level that's not Stormveil. Yes, I don't want shit level design in my games.
But Stormveil Castle is a legacy dungeon, and in terms of interconnected design and secrets it is fantastic, with multiple routes in multiple directions and exits to different locations.
>But Stormveil Castle
Yes, it's the only good level in that shit game.
It is by far the best location in the game but that doesn't make it not be a legacy dungeon.
>It is by far the best location in the game
*Only good legacy dungeon (actual area at all) in the whole game.
yes, and it is a LEGACY DUNGEON
That was already stated.
Stormveil IS a legacy dungeon you stupid trog.
They spent those 6 years tweaking ultra hand and making the fuse ability work with most things. Doesn't mean it was a great use of time though.
Raya Lucaria is 2x more detailed than every divine beast and sage temple combined. Hell, that might be a disservice because those dungeons had the bare minimum put into the aesthetic. Remember Vah Rudania? You probably don’t outside of it having very simple rotatable parts and it being dark. It was dark just because it was the fire dungeon, use the torch and light it up but you won’t see much interesting at all.
>Raya Lucaria is 2x more detailed
Can't even take these posts seriously. Only the most delusional of Fromdrones pretend this trash is good.
There are more secrets and environmental details (which is key as botw prided itself in “environmental storytelling”) in Raya than any of those dungeons. If you’re the gay in the other thread then we already called your homosexualry out because it’s clear you’ve never played the game.
>There are more secrets and environmental details
Translation: an empty linear corridor with a bunch of filler segments that barely last more than minutes.
>nu-Zelda fanboy complaining about filler
NTA but lol.
BotW/TotK have MMO-tier levels of filler.
>complaining about filler
Yeah, I understand level design. It's why ER is bad. Can you name and point out all the alternative routes in that level? No, optional areas are not different routes, it goes right back to the route you were just on.
>optional areas aren’t different routes
In an adventure game this is a moronic statement to use as a detriment to level design, especially in a build-based RPG like Elden Ring. The main issue with this belief is that it’s only giving value to one reward of exploration. A good level in this genre rewards proper exploration because you could find good gear, talismans, spells, shortcuts, a substantial secret, etc. and this is what you can find in Raya Lucaria. Almost every hallway has a secret or optional room in this dungeon. There is a hidden warp to a dungeon scaled far higher than it, you can find very useful equipment such as Radagon’s icon and Azur’s staff, all of the glintstone crabs drop different crowns, spells like comet and shattering crystal, if you’re not a magic build you can still find spectral lance and the Carian Knight set, and another glintstone key which you can give to Thops which rewards a useful spell that expands the world building significantly. All of that is missable, and that was barely scratching the surface and didn’t even include environmental touches. Of course, alternate paths are a reward for exploration too. But Blighttown wasn’t good because of the shortcut that let you skip 70% of it. Yes, that connectivity added to the area quite a bit (about 10% of its value is gained from that I’d say), but it was good because it’s just a really good level and rewards not just exploration, but careful playing and situational awareness with the blowdart enemies. This is what is lacking from dungeons outside of Hyrule Castle, you’re immediately told where the terminals are and explorational desire is not only stunted, but there is literally nothing to find outside of stuff like arrows and the ocasional chest with a weapon you’ve seen 20 times already.
>A good level in this genre
is Stormveil. The rest of the dungeons forgot what made that level good.
>Unless the next Zelda is filled with legacy type dungeons like ER
When Aonuma looked at weapon durability systems he somehow forgot the maintenance/repair system part. Which is really weird because BotW has a big resource system that would've worked well with that.
>Didn’t get the memo that everyone loved ER’s legacy dungeons
Everyone also loved those mini dungeons in BotW too so I really don't understand what happened with TotK.
It could've been a real improvement over BotW but it's just more BotW
>When Aonuma looked at weapon durability systems he somehow forgot the maintenance/repair system part.
No he just quite rightly realized it was a fricking stupid idea for BotW/TotK. You expect the player's just to carry around fricktons of broken weapons?
Or do you expect a player, balls deep in the Hebra Mountains, breaks his sword and then just turns around to skulk all the way back to a village to fix it, and then trudge all the back?
What a fricking load of shit. Aonuma's idea is way better. Your weapon breaks, you pick up a new weapon, you keep moving, combat always stays fresh, loot always stays useful.
Ganker troons think they know game design better than fricking Nintendo lmao
combat is the opposite of fresh
You're a stupid moron, just as much as Aonuma and Fujibiyashi are.
Weapon Durability just slaps the weapon you're using out of your hand so you swap to another weapon that functions the exactly the same because they're lazy homosexual devs who didn't want to animate for more than 3 different weapon types. Weapon durability is just a crutch they used to populate the map with shit because they didn't want to actually bother designing decent combat for once, or dungeons & other important locations worth a damn.
Nailed it. Thread should have ended here.
>Ganker troons think they know game design better than fricking Nintendo lmao
As a player you notice what works and what doesn't.
Coming up with ideas, mechanics, etc. is the hard part.
>You expect the player's just to carry around fricktons of broken weapons?
Instead of carrying around fricktons of weapons?
>Or do you expect a player, balls deep in the Hebra Mountains, breaks his sword and then just turns around to skulk all the way back to a village to fix it, and then trudge all the back?
Or you could repair it yourself? Why have such a big resource system if you're not even going to use it properly
>Your weapon breaks, you pick up a new weapon, you keep moving,
Have you ever played other games?
>combat always stays fresh
I have no idea what you mean by that.
Do you really need someone to force you to try a new weapon type? How about a better combat system in general?
>loot always stays useful
You make loot less useful this way though. After you find a good weapon, there is literally no reason to engage enemies in the overworld because the treasure you get is the same and enemies are carrying the same weapons since the beginning. So you're better off to just ignore them (or bomb/smack them into water)
>as a player
Who the frick asked? Make a game and prove it.
You don't need to be a chef to know that food doesn't taste nice, nor do you need to be a mechanic to know if a car is broken down.
TotK for a year because of Elden Ring
why do you brainlets keep saying this, they aren't on the same fricking platform and Nintendo doesn't give a shit about some random paid awards show
>make a new formula that mixes things up
>becomes the highest selling game of the series
>critical acclaim from journalists, saying its the best game ever made
>some random internet people are mad at the new formula
how will Nintendo ever recover?
They unironically will never recover. Because of those good sales zelda will be shit for the rest of time.
Based Nintendo catering to real Zelda fans and not OoTgays.
gamers are moronic and will buy it anyway because it has 'zelda' in the title
BotW and TotK have more dungeon and puzzle solving action, more unique items and abilities, than any Zelda game. moronic troon.
>unnecessary text to spell out what the image already shows clearly
Who made this, Eiji Aonuma?
>series about freedom, exploration and discovery
>abandons this appeal to become more linear and predictable
Why was this allowed? Thank frick Nintendo saved Zelda.
Genuine question, why does anyone like weapon durability? If you do you're a homosexual.
Law of averages says there's got to be a Dark Cloud fan somewhere.
I still go back to OOT, MM and WW every year. I couldn't even be paid to play through BOTW again.
Only a handful of developers know how-to make a proper open world game. Nintendo does not and neither does gamefreak. Japs should seriously stick to linear style games and fighters.
Nintendo showed fromsoft how to make open world
>influenced meaning "ok, let's do something actually good though"
I wish ER was good.
The map of Elden Ring is far better than both Hyrules in BotW and TotK.
>The map of Elden Ring
is fricking terrible. You don't understand level design so this conversation.
>You don't understand level design
Post your maps you’ve made
If you understand it surely you have your own creations to back up your word and don’t just sit in your armchair saying shit online all day
Already told you, the ones that are linear corridors with terrible and random enemy placement. That's not even speaking of the pointless overworld.
That’s not what I asked, show visual examples of what (you) designed
It is. How can any combinations of those things be good level which ER is filled with just like DaS2?
Post what you’ve made and how you understand level design
Already did, are you going to answer the question?
You didn’t post any visuals. You’re just saying “this bad thing is as, that’s how I know what’s good”
There’s more to level design beyond just saying you can recognize bad parts and good parts, anybody can do that and it varies based on who you speak to anyway, that’s why there’s always a variety of opinions when people talk about their favorite maps in an FPS or levels in a platformer
Don't need to post visuals. That's the design philosophy of ER. Can you name one that isn't Stormveil and doesn't fall into that trap.
ER has a sewer level thats better than stormveil. Constantly bringing up stormveil makes it sound like you havent played the game and just googled best level in ER.
>ER has a sewer level
Everything about Leyndell is garbage, have a nice day.
If you’re going to claim you know level design then it’s a good idea to post visuals of the levels you have made, unless you haven’t made any and think you actually know what goes into designing levels
>If you’re going to claim you know level design
Correct. So, how are any of those elements described there good?
Stop speaking in broad strokes and expecting people to take you seriously, maplet
>Stop speaking
No need, I don't pretending ER has good level design.
You should stop speaking until you learn how to write in English
>You should stop
pretending you understand level design.
Right back at you pal
Really, when did anyone but you pretend those linear corridors are good level design?
Nobody did, but you cannot provide an example beyond broad strokes, nor anything you personally designed that actually shows you know fundamentals
>Nobody did
>The map of Elden Ring is far better
You literally praised a bunch of shitty linear levels
Not my post, sorry
You must be smoking that good shit to believe that. Totk shits on elden ring in every way thats not combat. The game has better traversal, quests, mechanics, level design etc. Elden ring is literally the same past 4 souls game prior but in a open world
>my dad's a janny at fromsoft dude trust me Miyazaki totally made a whole game based off botw because he didn't like it
You already fell for my bait so my job here is done
I accept your white, shit stained flag.
>developer of popular upcoming game lists other popular games to help promote his game to fans of those games
>popular upcoming game
>lists game from 15 years ago
The copes keep on coming. Face it. Your favorite devs favorite dev is nintendo.
None of those games came out 15 years ago and all of them continue to hold attention because of their popularity and acclaim
You might as well say his favorite dev is Bethesda or CDPR by this logic
Elder scrolls is a 30 year old franchise dude. You didn't know this already?
What Elder Scrolls do you think that article is specifically talking about? There’s a correct answer
You didnt know that elder scrolls has been going on for 30 years... lmao
but anon now you have physics puzzles and garry's mod gameplay to go with it!
>gmod gameplay
>even gmod facial expressions
Nintendo really wanted to see what they could get away with kek.
Here's your villain bro
It'd amazing that a goty level adventure game also did physics and interactions better than a tech demo who's sole purpose was physics and interactions. First nintnedo dunked on every open world dev by making botw first try, then they dunked on valve.
how old is garry's mod?
>RPGmaker game, but in 3D
...
>RPGmaker game, but in 3D, with gmod sandbox mechanics added
WOW!
>RPGmaker game, but in 3D, with gmod sandbox mechanics added
sounds rad but also just like an inferior totk.
No, that is what TOTK is.
moron
totk shits all over gmod with just its side activities lol
this post proves how bizarre and insecure totk gays are
>this post proves how bizarre and insecure totk gays are
He says in a TotK seethe thread.
Even Zelda fans were obviously disappointed by TOTK, but Ganker is the only place that actually says it out loud.
I wasn't.Tthe game was frickin kino. Goty easily unless your some dnd nerd who likes bear sex game 3.
You're just a hardcore tendie. I never even mentioned the homosexual bestiality game.
>Even Zelda fans
OoTgays aren't Zelda fans.
youre right OoTgays are above zeldagays
unfortunately OoT doesnt share the spirit of original zelda that botw and totk have. zelda is about exploration above all else. OoT is a dungeon crawler.
BotW and especially TotK aren’t like OG Zelda either unless all you care about is superficial similarity
Valve didn’t make GMod, it’s in the fricking name
I still remember the webm some anon made in gmod replicating everything TotK does, down to the crucified octorok.
It's been 6 years, you guys are still complaining about this?
>totk is 6 years old
youre fricking with me right?
hello new guy
Yes because it fricking sucks how much everyone sucks botw off.
stay mad
In truth, it's Ocarina of Time that's still making people mad.
Wait, I need to test something.
BOTW and TOTK are awful and have the worst Zelda, but the Zelink art is cute.
Zelda should be obese
Agreed.
I wasn't expecting to see you here. I was expecting ACgay to start ranting.
I’m at work and I saw this thread.
Posted some new cute art for you. Now I need to go. Good Bye.
ACgay finally killed himself because AC6 didn't get a single GOTY nomination.
Zelink is Nintendo’s greatest gift to the world and video gaming.
>goty time coming soon
>massive ramp up in totk hate threads
A tale as old as time, or at least since 2016
I feel old seeing people say totk and elden ring are the best games of all time
34 here. I don't like anything anymore.
Wind Waker is the only good Zelda game.
WWgays don't get an opinion.
somebody post the webm of the dungeon thats two rooms where the camera swivels over to the answer as link walks into each room.
Wind Waker is a good but flawed Zelda game.
the only good zeldas are OoT, MM and TP
>MM and TP
zoom zoom
I bought OoT on release for my n64
zooooooooooooooooom
how old are you anon?
zzzooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmm
The best Zelda games are OOT and ST.
Everything actually sucks now and no it isn't just because I turned 30.
Not everything sucks now, but things have continued getting worse in part because of the growing number of consumers who don’t care what they spend their money on and the number of companies that have been taking advantage of that fact
>Why is this allowed
Because Nintendo owns you.
Threads like this are the only safe place for me to post Zelink on Ganker now
I’m sad bros.
try reddit
I’ve been on Ganker since 2009. Can’t stand other places.
Reddit is full of homosexuals. ACgay even spammed his "muh eunuch" crap there.
Forgot to mention that ACgay also went crying to tumblr about muh heckin chuds after being laughed at here.
good I hate namegays like you
Zelda is cute! Cute!!
There he is.
agreed
moar
I wouldnt have minded the open world if they didnt completely phone in the dungeons
BotW shrines and beasts suck
TotK did the dungeons a little bit better, but not nearly enough
Give me TPs dungeons, those were fricking cool
>Give me TPs dungeons,
No thanks. 3D Zelda dungeons are garbage before BotW.
Get rid of the cringe dungeon crawler aspect and the game sells 3x the highest in the series.
>Slop sells well
GTA 5/GTA Online sold several times more, but they are not exempt from criticism.
>people hate dungeons
This has been known for years, I remember like ten or so years ago you’d see people wanting a game with less dungeon focus and more like Animal Crossing with NPCs you can befriend.
Unironically, it has to do with the number of women that like the series and how the female fanbase has grown larger and larger over time. Most women don’t like dungeons for one reason or another, and they make up the prominent Zelda userbase.
To be fair the Zelda team don't like dungeons either which is why they're total snoozefests with easy enemies and an obsession with toddler difficulty "puzzles".
What games have good dungeons?
Regarding Zelda or a different series? For Zelda, only the 2D games and BotW/TotK. Or other series, there's a lot of great DRPGs out there. Elminage Gothic and Tohou doujn comes to mind.
>Elminage Gothic
Never heard of this, looked it up and it just looks like a bunch of squares shoved back to back to each other with most of the navigation being a guessing game
I’ll take Zelda dungeons over that mess thank you
Stick to baby garbage like OoT and TP if you can't handle real dungeons.
Tedium =/= challenge, you might as well make them randomly generated if they’re just going to be a series of featureless boxes shoved back to back along each other
>Tedium
Yes, that's literally why 3D Zelda dungeons before BotW are laughably bad.
Still better than a bunch of connected boxes held together by turn-based four-dudes-in-row menu gameplay
>Still better
Not at all, old 3D Zelda has some of the worst level design I have ever seen.
This is not good level design
That's a great level, the maze fricks with your sense of direction and the enemies are a b***h here. It doesn't pretend to be a 3D game like what Zelda used to do while telling you how to play and what to do.
>the maze fricks with your sense of direction
Having a bunch of copypasted squares in a row will do that
Yeah, you have to critically think about the environment. They should have added Simon Says elements for casuals.
>This has been known for years
Of course, people have standards.
Why do you boomers hate change? Nu zelda is fun and old zelda isn't going anywhere. The whole series is quality for the most part.
>Nu zelda is fun
No it isn't. I played BOTW for over 200 hours and basically went straight to Ganondorf in TOTK.
didnt ask
I've seen you state this in multiple threads. I don't know what it's supposed to prove. I have close to 1000 hours in BotW and about 300 in TotK.
I experienced everything that BOTW had to offer, and it felt more like I was walking around and doing chores than playing a game. It literally made me reconsider this hobby.
k
>I have close to 1000 hours in BotW
Play more games, there isn’t even 200 hours of content in base BotW unless you keep deleting your save and replaying it over and over
I play plenty of games. I replayed BotW several times. Doing challenge runs like no shield, 3 hearts, ETC. I do this with every 3D Zelda game. I've probably got 2000 hours in OoT across the years.
>Nu zelda is fun and old zelda isn't going anywhere.
It's fun for the first while but a lot of people burned out on it since it's just too overly much after a point, especially if you get into the grind of upgrading gear. And Old Zelda is literally just "go buy old games, play Nintendo Switch online or emulate". They seem to not even divert a side team to making new side games to keep the old formula, so a lot of old fans feel like they're being thrown to the monetization fields.
Botw was another IP that they slapped the zelda title on
It’s the result of Nintendo listening to negative feedback from OoT fans since WW’s release.
>they complained WW was too kiddy and didn’t look dark and gritty so they made TP look brown and bloom like what was popular for the time
>they complained TP was too derivative so they tried to make SS more unique with a new setting new mechanics new villain
>they complained SS was too railroaded and handhold-y so they made BotW an open world sandbox
And then BotW exploded so much in popularity with normalgays that their praise drowned our all the criticism and this is what we’re stuck with now.
>everyone complains the games are too easy
>"LALALALA WE CAN'T HEAR YOU IT MUST BE THE ZELDA CYCLE"
Ocarina of Time has been a disaster for this franchise.
You got it the other way around. The padded busywork is the OoT dungeons pushing crates and lighting torches like a monkey. Gameplay you can get staring at a logic puzzle on a sheet of paper. Oh but you get to move a camera while solving it I guess. There's a reason that model finished. Because it sucked from it's inception and once the new car smell if 3D wore off it was not going to sustain interest in the series. BotW is what 3D Zelda should have been from the beginning.
BotW/TotK are the DEFINITION of "padded busywork". The majority of their content IS padding, unquestionably. The older Zelda games like OoT aren't comparable at all. Even OoT's 100 bugs tremble in horror at BotW's 900 korok seeds.
>are the DEFINITION of "padded busywork".
That only applies to OoT. Being forced into certain actions is the definition of padded busywork.
>Gameplay is the defintition of busywork
>Walking around in a mostly empty field, where everything is equally optional and meaningless, is engaging
is the defintition of busywork
Yes, that's already been stated. Being forced into certain actions is the definition of padded busywork. Why did you make me repeat myself?
No. Busywork is optional filler. Such as: numerous fetch quests and shrines where you fight the same enemy (tests of strength, etc). Busywork is moving through a lot of empty space before you can do anything. Dungeons that require you to use your abilities in new and interesting ways are not busywork. That's just gameplay.
>Busywork is optional filler
It's the exact opposite, busywork is filler. If something is optional then it's not filler or busywork. That doesn't even make sense, learn the English language.
>Busywork: work that keeps a person busy but has little value in itself.
In other words, it wastes time and it's optional. It's filler.
>work that keeps a person busy but has little value in itself.
Yes, that's OoT. What do these forced, scripted segments add?
>pushing blocks and activating switches
>busy work
Jesus christ you're dumb
blocks and activating switches
>>busy work
Correct. There's a lot more you can name like that that exists to simply waste. the player's time. It's work that keeps a person busy but has little value in itself.
When did THIS start defining Zelda more than sword fights with challenging monsters and adventure?
Block pushing has been in Zelda since the fricking first game.
Not the same way as it is now.
There is no more block pushing because you homosexuals made Nintendo exile basic labyrinth design out of the series completely.
Maybe this is the game for you instead of one with dungeons and monsters to fight.
There are people who act like even basic tasks in old Zelda formula are all braindead compared to the new hotness that is gluing wood together and sticking Koroks in signposted spots.
When OoToddlers started to pretend 3D Zelda had good dungeon design and act like that's what the whole series was about.
>Being forced into certain actions is the definition of padded busywork.
Like an unskippable Uncharted intro sequence with Zelda? Or the unskippable cutscene introducing Ganondorf, when every other cutscene is skippable? Or having to stop what you're fricking doing in the Great Sky Island to go do a deliberate failed Heart Container check and having to do it again, just for the game to go tell you that you need a fourth Spirit Orb? Or making you do the Heart check again and forcing a Heart Container on you (the first time the series has made a true three-heart run impossible in 3 decades, since you need to beat at least one dungeon to remove extra Heart Containers/Stamina Vessels)? TotK respects the player far less than BotW did.
>Like
OoT entirely linear structure?
>entirely linear
It isn’t, we’ve been over this
It is, the overworld and dungeons are linear in their structure. You praise random, arbitrary roadblocks but now they don't count all of a sudden.
No, you can do things out of order in the overworld and access dungeons out of their intended order. True actual rigidity didn’t exist in the 3D games until WW which has a forced dungeon order despite giving free control for sailing the ocean and became worse in TP where the entire thing was a straight line
>you can do things out of order
Which has nothing to do with the overworld and dungeons as they are fundamentally designed to set the player on a singular route.
kinda like super metroid
>a world where dogshit like OoT is as good as Super Metroid
Imagine.
>Which has nothing to do with the overworld
It does, since the overworld accounts for letting the player go out of order
>and dungeons
See above
>they are fundamentally designed to set the player on a singular route.
As in they all lead to you fighting Ganon at the end? That’s every game in the series. For all the dicksucking Zelda 1 gets over having options in what dungeons you don in which order nobody ever realizes how it doesn’t matter because your choices still lead to the same outcome of fighting Ganon to beat the game
>For all the dicksucking Zelda 1 gets over having options in what dungeons you don in which order nobody ever realizes how it doesn’t matter because your choices still lead to the same outcome of fighting Ganon to beat the game
What the frick do you want Zelda to be about then? What are you even arguing?
>What the frick do you want Zelda to be about then?
A good balance of exploring the overworld to find dungeons and meet NPCs followed by dungeon diving that rewards unique items and special abilities
The late 3D Zeldas we’re split 30/70 on overworld/dungeon duality and BotW/TotK is more like 90/10, neither have a good balance
>What are you even arguing?
Nonlinearity should not be the end all be all of the series if the choices made by the player doesn’t actually affect the outcome of the game. If they’re going to go whole hog on nonlinearity and choice, then the story and progression of the game should change to match what actions the player takes rather than giving the same end result
>Nonlinearity should not be the end all be all of the series
It absolutely should and is. Adventure games are nothing without exploration.
>It does
It doesn't, there's random, arbitrary roadblocks all over the place. That's not non-linear.
>See above
See what? Still can't name any of the dungeons that are non-linear.
>As in they all lead to you fighting Ganon at the end?
What does that have to do with non-linearity? That's the final boss of the series.
>there's random, arbitrary roadblocks all over the place. That's not non-linear
By that logic none of the pre BotW games are nonlinear since they all block you from progress in some fashion at one point or another
>Still can't name any of the dungeons that are non-linear.
Because Zelda dungeons (as in the actual layouts of the dungeons) aren’t nonlinear to begin with, they all have the same outcome. Having multiple rooms to go into with one correct option being blocked off until you go into the right room to grab a key isn’t nonlinearity
>What does that have to do with non-linearity?
The paths you take don’t matter if the end result is the same each time. Having options is good and helps for repeat playthroughs, but if you still need to do every option to get to the end and the end remains the same regardless of choice, then the options don’t actually matter and the choice is completely arbitrary. If nonlinearity is the main focus then it should provide meaningful alternative outcomes
>none of the pre BotW games are nonlinea
Plenty of them are, the best example being Zelda 1. Where you're free to explore the entire overworld outside of two screens and dungeons usually don't have a single linear route.
>Because Zelda dungeons (as in the actual layouts of the dungeons) aren’t nonlinear
They are. A number of different sequences is the very definition.
>The paths you take don’t matter if the end result is the same each time
>player choice doesn't matter
Damn, Immersive Sims were linear all along....
Immersive sims offer different results tho, the good ones at least
Your story choices, not the gameplay progression from one area to the next.
>Where you're free to explore the entire overworld outside of two screens and dungeons usually don't have a single linear route.
No you can't homosexual parts of the map are inaccessible until you get the raft.
>you're free to explore the entire overworld outside of two screens
And still required to do all the content in order to clear the game, so the choice is entirely arbitrary
>and dungeons usually don't have a single linear route
They all have a correct path to the boss that you must take, there’s no alternate routes that actually lead to anything different
>A number of different sequences is the very definition.
Then by that logic Ocarina is also nonlinear since you can do different sequences out of order without glitches
>Immersive Sims were linear all along...
Most ImmSims actually have your choices and options matter with alternative end results, something Zelda never did
>And still required to do all the content
Only the dungeons to get heart pieces, and? What does that have to do with the overworld?
>They all have a correct path
They have alternative routes you can take.
>Then by that logic Ocarina is also nonlinear
Which dungoen and overworld segment has nonlinear progression.
>Most ImmSims actually have your choices and options matter
Within the level, nothing with progression to one to the next.
>Only the dungeons to get heart pieces
And the Triforce pieces
>What does that have to do with the overworld
The choices ultimately don’t matter if you still need to do all of them and the end result stays the same regardless of what you choose
>They have alternative routes you can take.
They have deviations along the main path, you can’t beat the dungeon in different ways since you always have to fight the same boss and obtain the necessary items for progression
>dungeon
Adult dungeons let you do a good number of them out of order and the actual layouts allow for “alternative routes” as you put it
>overworld
The moment you become an adult you have a number of options at your disposal, it’s not one set order and never has been
>Within the level, nothing with progression to one to the next.
Play more immsims
Totk's intro takes like 2 fricking hours to finish even if you mash the button to skip all the cutscenes. It's boring as hell.
>Or having to stop what you're fricking doing in the Great Sky Island to go do a deliberate failed Heart Container check and having to do it again
this one pissed me off more than anything
I'm glad you don't design games but if you do, then you're a homosexual.
>I'm glad you don't design games
That's weird, Immersive Sims don't exist? Oh right, OoTgays don't know much about vidya.
BotW/TotKgays have reached fricking Twitter Pokegay levels of being unable to take criticism for their games.
I would say they were already there with BotW, it just got worse when TotK ended up being more of a rehash than any of the old 3D Zeldas and fell out of the spotlight almost immediately after launch after everyone got bored with making meme vehicles
Now lets not get too hasty, at least they arent pardoning their game for being literally broken and a glitchy mess
That goes for any Zelda game
Not to the level of TotK, and you know it.
Yeah it does, specifically for any 3d Zelda game
>nuZelda fans when you can't just build a flaming penis helicopter and go right to the final boss after the tutorial or eat meals to triple your attack strength
And yet those two are the best selling Zelda games.
What if dungeons were built into the overworld?
They did that with Skyward Sword and everyone fricking hated it
Skyward Sword was built like linear handheld Zelda but in 3D with motion controls. Even then the areas were instanced instead of connected to one big map. I'm talking about making dungeons apart of the map as structures you find rather than instanced sub-areas.
Nintendo doesn't know how to do this, as evidenced by the entirety of the Depths being a whole fricking load of nothing.
Depths are great.
Then Nintendo and Monolith can learn how to build complex structures as apart of the world. They could even have multiple entrances and exits. Structures could even be their own biomes with unique monsters exclusive to them.
I think its a matter of limited hardware and manpower for complex overworld dungeons.
Depths piss me off the most about TotK. We could’ve gotten a cool interconnected underground world instead of an inverted duplicate of the overworld with one biome stretched across the entire area, it’s so fricking lazy
They could have put 3 or 4 more actual fricking dungeons down there. The first time you're in the depths it's cool because you don't know what to expect, but once you've seen it all, there is genuinely nothing there. It's just another barren map used to fuel the Zonai battery questline shit.
>Nintendo doesn't know how to do this
This. It gets to a point where you start to question whether they actually know what they're doing or if they care and I think we've passed that point. They're just coasting off the switch's success and brand names. They saw pokemon and said why the frick should we have to try? And they get rewarded for it.
>Why is this allowed
Because video games went mainstream and the mainstream is moronic. Modern nintendo is also utterly soulless so they're more than happy to butcher and reskin to appeal to that moronic mass audience, rather than take any risks creating new IPs.
>I fricking love Zelda bros
>except for all this damn Zelda stuff
do BotW/TotKgays even hear themselves anymore
They never have. Majority of their fans weren't Zelda fans before those games happened.
The series sold 20-30 million copies. At least 10-15 million of them are newbies
How many more times did you want a OoT rehash exactly? From 1998 the only meaningfully distinct game was MM and even that uses a ton from OoT. OoT itself is a streamlined 3D take on LttP. Did you not get your fill from 1998-2011? Did you really need another game with auto-jumping off ledges, a worthless field, 4-6 dungeons of finding some item to use that completely falls out of favor after the boss ended? I didn't. That shit is done to death. How many more times can we find the Boomerang and then the Bombs or Bomb Bag to proceed to the next string of linear events before the actual gameplay starts? I couldn't even stomach SS, I was done it was stale as frick.
>Did you really need another game with auto-jumping off ledges, a worthless field, 4-6 dungeons of finding some item to use that completely falls out of favor after the boss ended?
As long as the dungeons introduce fun items, the game has good music, and the girls are attractive, then yeah that formula can stick around
>I couldn't even stomach SS
SS being bad does not meant the formula itself is bad, just like how the NSMB games being bad does not mean the standard 2D Mario formula is bad
>meant the formula itself is bad
SS was so bad because it used the shitty OoT setup and it literally almost killed the series.
SS was bad because it relied too heavily on motion controls, had a garbage anime story that retconned a bunch of things about true series, had ugly designs and took hours to actually get to the fun parts. That’s not the formula, that’s the devs making poor choices and the game having a messy development, which the devs have talked about before with Miyamoto and Aonuma going back and forth on what to do with the game
SS was bad because it doesn't have exploration on a dogshit overworld with terrible dungeons. Now this is the part where you pretend SimonSays is good.
>How many more times did you want a OoT rehash exactly?
Once would be nice. Even MM, as good as it is, is far too short in its main game. WW was the primary template going forward until BotW, not OoT.
>and even that uses a ton from OoT.
MM at least managed a new world.
>Did you not get your fill from 1998-2011?
Did you not get your fill of non-Zelda open world games from 2006-2016?
>a worthless field
You nuZeldagays have some balls to criticize any other Zelda game for having a "worthless field", I'll give you that.
>4-6 dungeons
OoT had 8 dungeons, TP had 9, SS had 7. Also, each had unique puzzles, whereas BotW and TotK dungeons have the same loop of finding four or five doohickies to activate in a structureless playground.
>of finding some item to use that completely falls out of favor after the boss ended
As opposed to farming the same unspecial half-dozen or so boring weapon movesets to mindlessly whack enemies and bosses with over the span of the entire game?
>I didn't. That shit is done to death.
You just don't like the Zelda series if you think the baby needs to be thrown out with the bathwater after one divisive 3D game.
This post is hilarious. Can you tell me why you pretend 3D Zelda has good level design?
Because it HAS level design. Frick it, OoT wins by default.
Linear, boxed rooms and empty fields aren't good level design. Thanks for making me laugh though. It's cute when idiots pretend they understand vidya.
Random repetitive terrain generated by lowres heightmaps isn't level design either.
>Random
Rule of triangle isn't random. Again, it's cute when you pretend.
Linear, boxed rooms aren't good level design
Yet you defend this?
>WW was the primary template
WW is just OoT again but this time there's sailing instead of Hyrule Field.
>Did you not get your fill of non-Zelda open world games from 2006-2016?
Typical Ganker poster, immediately jumps to guy who disagrees with me must love opposite thing unconditionally. Have you once tried to view others not as pawns on sides but as an individual? My points had nothing to do with the newer games specifically I was merely pointing out that they had reached the end of this particular rope a change was necessary.
>You nuZeldagays
Pointless tribalism
>OoT had 8 dungeons
YOU GOT THE NUMBER WRONG I WIN!!
>But BOTW BAD!
You're entitled to your opinion but this has nothing to do with what you're replying to.
>You just don't like the Zelda series
The Zelda series is not just your precious string of games that follow your preferred formula, from the second game in the series they completely threw the baby out with the bathwater. Zelda is nothing but an extremely loose framework for Nintendo to make adventure games.
>from the second game in the series they completely threw the baby out with the bathwater.
and then immediately went back to it
something they did with all the big name nintendo games actually
I don't know why people make up these bad faith arguments when every single game in the franchise besides 2 had the same base plan, where do you people come from? Have you just been silently seething for 30 years? If so I have to commend your capacity for spite but it seems all the more likely you just eat the new shit and cry that it was always meant to be this, when it has never been the case
>where do you people come from?
Not growing up with garbage games like OoT.
I'm talking about LoZ and LttP though, the games you claim to love.
Or do you hate them too?
Tell me what games in the franchise did you actually like before botw? Any of them? At all?
>I'm talking about LoZ and LttP though
Which OoT isn't anything alike.
>Or do you hate them too?
He does.
What do the citadels in Hyrule Castle make a reference too?
Did you reply to the wrong post?
No. Now answer the question.
Will you stop hating alltp if I do?
If you liked lttp, you should be able to answer that question.
I'm still waiting for that answer. Sounds like you don't know much about Zelda.
I do, I wonder why I need to answer your question.
>I do
Then what is it?
They reference previous Zelda games. That was pretty easy.
Be specific, what is it referencing?
You should know if you're a fan of the series.
Citadels? You mean like the guard houses with the enemy fights?
First of all frick you
you're a c**t don't respond for me.
It was always meant to be whatever the creators wanted it to be. Those same people, involved since the days you miss made this new formula too. It's not like countless other series where there's corporate mandates and huge turnover they're just doing what they've always done. Zelda 1 and LttP aren't following the same structure either. Is that not a true Zelda game? Game makers are not short order cooks, they are artists and this is those same people's new art.
>Where do you people come from? Have you just been silently seething for 30 years?
Unlike you, I can move past comfort food. I liked the older games but by SS I was sick of it if I want to find the boomerang again and kill a spider boss I'll just pop in OoT again I don't need it re-released every few years for the rest of my life.
>something they did with all the big name nintendo games actually
I went through a lot of their older series and you are laughably wrong.
>Mario 2 is basically a Mario 1 romhack (BUT MUH SUPER MARIO USA)
>Metroid 2 is Metroid but you're going down
>Famicom Detective Club is another VN
>Game Boy Wars is just like Famicom Wars
>Mother 2 is a fairly straightforward iteration on Mother
>FE2 is an iterative sequel
>Kirby's Adventure is an iterative sequel as well
Bonus for you, since it was US only
>Kid Icarus of Myths and Monsters is very similar to the NES game
>open world gay calling any other type of game "comfort food"
SMB 2 was a romhack
Metroid 2 was a gimped handheld game
Zelda 2 I don't think needs to be mentioned again in this thread
All of which had their third games (smb3, super, and lttp) become some of the most acclaimed of their time, and ever
>Zelda 1 and LttP aren't following the same structure either.
Yes they are.
One of them is an early NES game and the other is a SNES game, but they follow the same structure. The same way that Metroid and Super Metroid follow the same structure but in a greater scale.
>Comfort food
rich coming from someone happy the series is now ubisoft. No one (ok, very few people) are defending SS but botw is a complete 180 and is just a continuation of their schizo nonsense on what zelda should be (thematically) and has now bled over into what zelda is (mechanically)
They've managed to stick two games in a row though, and I will at least give them credit that totk is an improvement on botw in that I've actually had some fun in the underworld
>is now ubisoft
Aw, OoTgays are so cute. Is this the only way OoToddlers can cope their shitty games are never coming back?
willl you frick off Black person I'm trying to have an actual discussion with someone, go shit your pants in some other thread
So you admit that you aren't a fan of the series.
>OoT = Zelda
Told you, it ruined 3D Zelda. Look at these morons.
You hate Zelda, sorry.
Wait a minute. Why do you keep attacking OoT for the faults specifically introduced by Wind Waker?
I don’t even know why I bother on Ganker anymore.
i hope tendies really look inwards when it loses GOTY, and ask themselves, is this what's best for zelda, or is this what's best for nintendo?
Imagine unironically caring about goy awards
I fricking hate zoomers
Nintendo cared enough to delay its release for a year
>source: my butthole
It's gonna win GOTY no matter what Ganker says. I don't like BotW or TotK either but you're fooling yourself if you think it isn't an inevitability. It's just how the industry works now.
What a moronic thing to say
I miss it so much.
It actually bothers me how it and the Clawshot disappeared from the series in favor of just lolglideovereverything.
I don't know why we couldn't get some kind of grappling hook item in either Botw or totk. They could make rope and another sharp consumable items you find in the world and you could craft your own grappling hooks/hookshots with varying durability levels without breaking the game.
>that stupid wind sage power is on cool down?
>its fricking raining again?
>let me just make a quick escape rope
Both games do so much to go against their own rules for no good reason, can't even throw old fans a fricking bone.
I know how to bring hookshot back in modern Zelda if you don't mind having crossbows. Hookshots are a bow type that work like crossbows but you can latch onto stone and wood. You do have to hold zR to pull yourself in. However you can swing off the chain with a partially reeled in hookshot.
that sounds pretty cool I'd be ok with that.
The downside is the hookshot would have durability. However with a repair mechanic hookshots with durability seems like a good balance.
>I miss it so much.
Zelda is the biggest part of my life.
It made me who I am today.
I fricking love Zelda bros.
Same. Old Zelda, New Zelda, I love it all.
me too, just like i love my sister but i hate what she's become
sovl
Look at all this soul neither Botw or totk have.
normally i hate tripgays as much as the next guy but you’re genuinely making this thread way better. thanks bro.
omg but why wouldn't you want to solve korok rock seed puzzle #563??????????????????????
toilet princess and fedora's mask wish they had much BASEDUL as these
God I wish the new games had actual undead enemies, not just monster skeletons and bug people pretending to be zombies
OoT was the peak of the series for a lot of reasons, but primarily because it perfected action-adventure design. The game wanted to tell you a story, but it also allowed you to experience this story in your own unique way. The first thing the game does is say, "go and find a sword and shield", and you have to figure that out yourself. Then, there's the bottleneck of presenting that sword and shield to Mido, and entering the first dungeon. You aren't allowed to just walk into the Deku Tree unarmed, but you also aren't led through some A-Z linear series of events that plays out the same way every time, either. This approach is expanded over the rest of the game: once you beat the Deku Tree and enter Hyrule Field for the first time, a significant portion of the world is open to you. The game encourages you to go directly to princess Zelda, but you don't have to. In fact, you can spend several hours doing other things before ever going to see her. Once Link becomes an adult, the game opens up even further, allowing you to engage a wide variety of sidequests from the get-go, or tackle the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, Ice Cavern or Gerudo Fortress in any order you please. The game's freedom of choice, tempered by a gentle guiding hand, is what makes OoT so amazing. It's a better formula than the Zelda 1 or BoTW approach of dropping the player in a world and letting them roam free. It's also a better formula than the approach taken by games like Twilight Princess where you're funneled through linear events. It's the perfect combination of linearity and freedom. This is what they should have built upon, but unfortunately, they kept doubling down on linearity until everyone finally had enough, and then they did a complete 180 into Skyrim territory.
>it perfected action-adventure design
I really wish OoTgays could play more games. This shit is embarrassing to read.
You didn't even read anything I said. You're just another moronic cuckold.
I did, it was really funny watching you pretend you understand game design like the other casual idiot who replied to you.
You replied one minute after I posted that, if you aren't completely ignorant then you're just mad. I can almost guarantee I've played more games than you, especially in this genre; everything from Darksiders and Dark Messiah to Kingdoms of Amalur and Demon's Souls. I challenge you to tell me what I said that's wrong. You won't, because you just have a hateboner for one of the greatest games of all time, plain and simple.
>OoTgay is a slow reader
No wonder you eat dogshit and pretend it's good. Tendies are something else.
>still no argument
moronic cuckold.
What argument? Already told you to play more games.
>What argument?
Exactly, you don't have one. You can't even formulate a response to what I said because you're more interested in fingering your pooper than having a discussion. If you want to take the binky out and actually talk about games, let me know. Until then, I've played more, and I know more about them. Cope.
u mad lol
I'm mad that you won't stop fingering your anus when I'm trying to talk about Zelda.
Except there was. All you said was that OoT is good, because there's bad filler. That was literally it.
I can't even call it Skyrim territory. Skyrim actually has quests, dungeons, and things that happen that are worth a damn. Breath of the Wild is closer to Far Cry or Assassin's Creed where you just do a bunch of stuff for upgrades, completion and fast travel points, and then occasionally get a pre-designed area to resolve.
People seriously asking
>Why did they throw away everything Zelda with each game?
When we've literally known for years
>"I’ve never actually finished it," Aonuma told me. He elaborated:
>"I almost feel like there’s still no game more difficult than it. Every time I try to play it I end up getting 'Game Over' a few too many times and giving up partway through. Certainly after playing the original Zelda for the first time, I didn’t ever think that I wanted to make a game like that."
>I was particularly bad at playing games that required quick reflexes. So, immediately after I started playing the original Zelda, I failed to read the movements of the Octorock in the field and my game suddenly game to an end. Even after getting used to the controls, each time the screen rolled to a new area new Octorock appeared and I thought 'am I going to have to fight these things forever?' Eventually, I gave up getting any further in the game.
Aonuma hates Zelda, so he simply changed what Zelda was, slowly and steadily. And like a frog in a boiling pot, none of you even felt like noticing until it was too late.
we all noticed by the time of skyward sword
most noticed by tp some with ww
I noticed with Wind Waker. You can tell Aonuma didn't want to make TP either.
It's too late anon, the zoomers won. Watch how they cry that it's "The most zelda-like game, all the other ones suck!" when apparently they've never liked any zelda except the first, and LoZ is nothing like botw in the slightest
at least totk tried, I always hated botw but totk just makes botw look offensive
vgh..
What a moronic finale. Another victory lap like the last game.
KINO
when you think about the generality of it, TotK is basically retreading all of BotW with extra steps and story involved, right down to awkwardly having to pretend most of the previous game didn't happen in case this happened to be someone's first Zelda game
I can't wait for the next one to treat me like a moron again.
Saved
Don't use the best zelda game in your spam you Black person shitposter.
botw seems like a bad joke with totk out and I wouldn't even say totk's THAT good, but it is certainly an improvement
maybe they'll be back to being actual zelda games plus the open world meme shit in another game or two
Kek only one (1) fricking guy actually understood game design and this tard barely acknowledged his post.
It’s obvious he’s baiting and if none of you even realized it after that point then frick man that’s actually sad.
Who are you talking about?
I wanna go back. Unironically.
>nintendo won't even make a re-remaster of OoT3D on the Switch with even better visuals because they didn't even want to make the 3D port in the first place until fan outcry, AND they want to always innovate
Why can't we get anything like this in 3D Zelda?
Aonuma is bad at video games and is a spiteful hack, while Fujibayashi is too busy whitewashing the recurring lore elements of Zelda and placing his furry Mary Sues on a pedestal.
>The closest we've ever come to this is Hyrule Warriors
>the game where Aonuma just said "do whatever you fricking want stop bothering me" to the dev team
Hurts.
>>the game where Aonuma just said "do whatever you fricking want stop bothering me" to the dev team
Did he really
Yes.
Jesus Aonuma sounds like an butthole
>another daily zelda totk thread reaching bump limits
>meanwhile FFXVI are dead and buried
not a good look FF sisses..
FF was shot in the back of the head and remained a corpse for 15 years.
We have yet to suffer as much as they have.
I bet you homosexuals don't know half the secrets in Ocarina of Time. Dare me, DOUBLE DOG DARE ME to post my master list, and maybe I will grace you with my mind-blowing list of obscurities.
I'm so glad OoTgays will never get another shitty clone ever again.
>the old games that were universally acclaimed were always bad
>this means the new ones are better than the classic 10/10 games that previously served as the standard by which the series was measured
>no one ever liked dungeons and puzzles
>uh no i'm not just doing damage control and trying to steer public opinion about a product, why would you think that
>>the old games
You can stop trying to lump good games with OoT.
What really hurts about BotW and TotK is that they don't feel like natural or genuine evolutions for the Zelda series. They feel like cynical games ASHAMED of being in the Zelda series but only begrudgingly using that name for pre-existing marketing purposes.
>Link's default design can't be green or have a hat anymore, because even though previous games made iconic cool designs in that vein, we can't, therefore it's dumb
>Link has to be right handed because the attack button is on the right side of the controller and players will be too stupid to reconcile that with left-handed attacks (yes Aonuma really said this is the reason why Link was kept right-handed for BotW despite no longer doing motion controls)
>the Triforce is stupid, we'll only hint at its existence once and do absolutely nothing else with it as an explicit plot element
>BotW and TotK is that they don't feel like natural or genuine evolutions
They are. Nintendo understands Zelda, OoTgays never will.
What's with your hateboner for OoT?
It killed 3D Zelda and nearly killed the whole series with that shitty final clone .
>the first 3D Zelda "killed 3D Zelda"
>spawned two shit clones that dragged the series into the dirt and was left to die
Yes?
NTA, but it was previously the most popular game in the series and it was seen as the standard. When people complain about a lack of dungeons or item progression in the new games, they'll often cite OOT. So in order to trivialize criticism of the new games, you attack the reputation of the old ones.
i see botwgays still haven't gotten over their boogeyman of oot for the past 6 years
look forward for another 6 of this drivel
It's great when video games don't respect the fact that I have a limited lifespan!
It's funny how TotKgays never acknowledge A Link Between Worlds.
>open ended
>reuses a Hyrule from a previous game
>has a landform-merging traversal gimmick and a weapon gimmick
>except it EMBRACES its Zelda heritage instead of treating it like a ridiculous undignified relic