If it works then it works but really they should have been able to make it work without doing moronic shit like this if their engine wasn't so shit and outdated.
It's clever programming out of necessity of having to work within the parameters of the fricking awful Gamebryo engine. Those games are full of tricks like that like like models being halfway into the floor or models loaded underneath the floor or merchants having an unaccesible chest underground for their inventory.
Game developer-wise, no, it's not bad. And it's not bad that the player is learning about it either-- it's just some goofy stuff that works in the game. Besides, the player (usually) won't learn about the work-arounds to various problems in the programming, so it's irrelevant if it's 'bad' for this kind of stuff to exist (Also just a "whatever" kinda thing. Can we also stop getting this thread over and over again? I know that happens constantly on this board, but goodness, this is the like, the 7th time this week I've seen this.).
it's actually a train glove that you wear, not an NPC. You just get forced to do a specific walk sequence in the cut scene to make it look like it's moving.
I'm suprised they didn't invent a ladder glove and play a climbing cutscene to simulate ladders in the games.
This is what I've been thinking, why do people even care about ladders? How fricking often do you climb ladders in real life? If anything, ladders feel like a lazy way to get players to move vertically, From Soft games are especially bad with this.
In dark souls I find they either give a good berth from pursuing enemies or a (sometimes perceived) moment of vulnerability. First time going through blight town I was afraid of those damn bugs knocking me off the ladder.
They are a bad way to move vertically and that is the point. They are often a limited and scary thing to do, because they make you vulnerable. That's why From likes to use them in Dark Souls, because they provide an excellent choke point against enemies, but also make for a problem if you are trying to get away. This is why most devs don't use ladders if they want players to be engaged with level design, because climbing sections fricking suck, with very few exceptions.
It's purely material to shitpost about, nobody who complains about ladders knows the first thing about game development. They might as well be saying "vidya mojo" when they say the word game engine.
>How fricking often do you climb ladders in real life?
How often do you go anywhere for a quest? Or go on an adventure? Obviously you'd have to climb if you ever did anything of importance but you don't, you just go to work and the grocery store.
jumping and walking animations don't add anything substantial either
the player should just be a green cylinder textured with the word "test" written in comic sans.
oh boy overexaggeration! i can do that too: >Functional ladders? Gee, what's next, modeling npcs down to their DNA?
Imagine seeing the same point brought up for the past decade and it getting explained multiple times why you’re wrong and why it doesn’t matter. Where do you ladder guys even come from? Cause you clearly aren’t downloading the ladder mods that already exist, no one is downloading those.
11 months ago
Anonymous
I see them campaign for RTX too, another memey feature
11 months ago
Anonymous
>you’re wrong and why it doesn’t matter
i dunno man it just sounds like sour grapes >you clearly aren’t downloading the ladder mods
of course not. i dont play garbage games
Why are you so obsessed with them?
i have no strong feelings about ladders, i'm just confused about the strong anti-ladder reactions
11 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah we’re aware you don’t play the games when you brought up ladders
11 months ago
Anonymous
Because it's every fricking thread like this
So many people give these guys explanations
Geez I don’t know maybe they can add uhh STAIRS and if you wanna go up really fast elevators
[...]
Ladders in gaems have been historically shit
It either sucks you in when you're trying to run off a ledge or sends you falling to your death when you're slightly off. Just have stairs of some shit, man.
>climb ladder slowly, get shot by 8 dudes and die defenseless
vs >using stairs, can run up and shoot a gun too
vs >booster pack lol
Why would I ever use the ladder option? There’s a reason ladder mods are janky as frick and no one downloads them
And they respond with some shit like "DURR BETHKEKS HATE LADDERS" it's annoying I just want to talk about the silly cheesewheel games.
Most of the time ladders would be used as siege equipment. It wouldn't always be something for you, but the animations would obviously be something that you can use for enemies to make them more dynamic. Elder Scrolls having climbing enemies would be far better than what goes on now, where an enemy has to have a step because they can't jump or climb up a waist high ledge.
Aren't they typically used to mask load times, kind of like crawling through ventilation ducts? The player gets to keep "playing" while the game renders a cliff face and some doodads as it loads the next large area into memory.
This is a bad faith argument. What you're showing is a literal cutscene horseshit. Ladders provide a quick lateral movement at the price of being out in the open and defenceless. You can make arenas interesting with ladders if there's other routes or to vantage points.
>use your jetpack
The thing that didn't exist before the game that hasn't come out yet?
Its simply a way to utilize some verticality in your game without stairs or going through loading screens.
>The thing that didn't exist before the game that hasn't come out yet?
Once again proving you do not play vidya games >inb4 it's a late game item
moving goalposts
The problem with ladders is more that there's so much shit they have to account for that can happen while you're on a ladder. For instance if it's going to be like Dark Souls where you can be kicked off a ladder, how's that going to work if you are in first person? It's not the '90s anymore, you can't just have the player fall down feet first and make a bone crunching sound. If they boot you to third person to play an animation then it's going to feel shitty and unfun just like it did in Skyrim. And that's just for vertical ladders, what about leaning ladders? If you put in leaning ladders, should you let players move them and possibly break a whole bunch of shit? Or will they be nonsensically glued in place in a game where messing with objects is half the fun? I can't blame Todd for not wanting to open that can of worms.
It isn't even an NPC. It's YOU. They swap out your head for the train, so that it looks like you are sitting down. It's a clever work around and games use to do this shit all the time. Actually making a working vehicle was simply a flex and while that is nice, it only matters for games where others can interact with you in that vehicle. Now if Fallout 3 had wanted to do a Murder on the Orient Express kind of thing and had that as a set piece, they could have easily reused that stuff for the tram, but it likely was beyond their scope of what they could conceivably do with the engine at the time. I mean, Skyrim could BARELY do a wagon and that was simply for the start of the game. Trying to mod in moving wagons for travel is absolute shit.
she doesn't exist, trainwiz posted that picture a decade ago to demonstrate how the train worked (your character wears it so the model encapsulates your vision) and morons played the game of telephone with it to imagine it's some npc in her underwear escorting you instead
Spotted the moronic child who obviously knows nothing about how companies work. You fricking underage moron. Bet you're a commie too. troony loving commie homosexual
It's stupid because 10 years later they're still doing the same thing
They could have taken the time to fix the engine once and do it right and instead they decided to do it the lazy stupid way
Not to mention that Frontier mod with fully functioning vehicles with suspension physics and everything. The engine is capable of whatever Bethesda is capable of coding, which evidently ain't much. Stop shitting on the engine.
>Lazy stupid way is a genius workaround that looks exactly how it shoud
Huh? The stupid way would be implementing features into the engine that aren't needed
>It's stupid because 10 years later they're still doing the same thing
Nuka World had a working train you could move around in, Far Harbor had a working boat. They have working elevators and there was a huge working rollercoaster.
>It's stupid because 10 years later they're still doing the same thing
Every developer in the history of developing has used a programming shortcut to help development times.
If Bethesda truly was doing the same shit over again children models would just be smaller adult models scaled down, but they're actual different models now in Starfield.
Kinda, I do mods for Oblivion and Skyrim.
The biggest issue I have with the engine though is the way records work, I don't know if there's a better way to do it, but the way the engine is incapable of merging different edits to one record is nightmare inducing.
>One mod changes a sword's model. >Another mod changes the damage, but the rest of the record is the same as vanilla. >Which is loaded last in the load order will overwrite all changes, overwriting the entirety of the record and nullifying the changes made by the other.
Awful, especially cell changes and landscape edits.
It's fairly obvious that the game was never meant to be modded. Minecraft was the same way for the longest time. That's why Forge was created, so that more mods could be loaded and we wouldn't run into issues where one mod wanted to overwrite a certain .class file which was essential for some other mod, making them incompatible.
>muh ladders
Why are you gays so obsessed with ladders?
A climbing animation adds nothing substantial to a game but you lot act like it's the most essential aspect of one
jumping and walking animations don't add anything substantial either
the player should just be a green cylinder textured with the word "test" written in comic sans.
Depends. In modern games it's just a cutscene disguised as gameplay (doesn't add anything, and takes me out of the experience because I recognize it as such).
But something like Daggerfall has meaningful climbing.
11 months ago
Anonymous
If you try to suggest Daggerfall-style climbing as optional traversal method in modern game - level design team will beat the shit out of you behind the parking lot, with AI programmers joining in later
11 months ago
Anonymous
Can't even having levitation in a new TES game, baka my head
11 months ago
Anonymous
Instanced cities fricked over a lot of features.
And, I gues, doing another Vivek was not an option.
nta, but I would say I think Bethesda should focus more on polishing their titles in the core areas, rather than adding jank mechanics that'd cause way more bugs for them in the end. They need to focus more on proper polish and QA, rather than technical features imo. Even Oblivion is ahead of titles like ER or BOTW 1-2 due to the AI system (in all its jank and flaws).
That and more player agency/customization and choices like other RPGs (whatever titles you consider to be good examples for such, BG 1-2-3, Witcher whatever).
[...]
Ladders in gaems have been historically shit
It either sucks you in when you're trying to run off a ledge or sends you falling to your death when you're slightly off. Just have stairs of some shit, man.
>climb ladder slowly, get shot by 8 dudes and die defenseless
vs >using stairs, can run up and shoot a gun too
vs >booster pack lol
Why would I ever use the ladder option? There’s a reason ladder mods are janky as frick and no one downloads them
This is what I've been thinking, why do people even care about ladders? How fricking often do you climb ladders in real life? If anything, ladders feel like a lazy way to get players to move vertically, From Soft games are especially bad with this.
first of all these games are first person and dont need an animation to climb ladders. you should be able to walk up to one and the player "hooks" onto it and is able to go up and down like in Stalker or Deus Ex. Its simply another traversal option. It doesnt have to be just ladders too, ropes or rock faces could have climbable surfaces
Considering that their AI uses basic pathing trying to calculate the shortest way to you, I can imagine. I always laugh when it's found that there is a section of flat floor in the games that doesn't have nav meshes on it. Now try putting a nav mesh onto a ladder and getting the AI to use it. Now add on the fact that the player can probably make it shorter to get to them by moving closer to the stairs a couple feet away. Now the AI abandons the ladder for the steps and you can simply go back and forth like this. AI slow climb up and down. Todd would be right to not try it.
This is what I've been thinking, why do people even care about ladders? How fricking often do you climb ladders in real life? If anything, ladders feel like a lazy way to get players to move vertically, From Soft games are especially bad with this.
Ladders in gaems have been historically shit
It either sucks you in when you're trying to run off a ledge or sends you falling to your death when you're slightly off. Just have stairs of some shit, man.
>YOU CANT JUST RUIN THE HECKIN CHARMARINO BRO!!!
Really though, you're right but I like that. It's exactly like magic, you know shit probably isn't real but you can't explain it (sometimes). If you know code and game a lot you can probably spot a lot.
Not really no, but lots of people who have never made a game seem to think so. If youve made so much as one game, you know theres a lot of smoke and mirrors to make things work. Its like a button that closes the game, the button doesnt close the game because the button says close the game, youve madea button that closes the game and as such have written "close the game" on it
>Spotted the moronic child who obviously knows nothing about how companies work. You fricking underage moron. Bet you're a commie too. troony loving commie homosexual
Yes, the idea of the train being a hat for a human model in Skyrim was initially thought to be far-fetched, but upon closer inspection, there is evidence to support this theory. Firstly, the train only appears in certain locations, which could indicate that it is not a natural phenomenon but rather something created by a person.
Additionally, the fact that the train has a set route and schedule suggests that it may be controlled by some sort of intelligence. Finally, the train's appearance is inconsistent with other trains seen in Tamriel, further supporting the notion that it may be a unique creation.
Therefore, while the idea may seem absurd at first glance, there is merit to the argument that the train in Skyrim is indeed a hat for a human model.
They do similar shit in VtM:B
All the doors and other interactables like the taxi have an NPC hidden in them. For some reason they all got made visible partway through my playthrough
Realistically? No. Stuff like this is standard and is expected of devs.
Should this have been necessary? No. For an open world game and coming from a dev that "specializes" in making open world games this is inexcusable. I'm aware that Obsidian made this and not Bethesda, but they're still using Gamebyro.
That is the capitol express from the beginning of one of the DLC for fallout 3.
The train in New Vegas never moves. Its there when you load into the train station, and when you get on it loads you into the other end.
Its just like the ending slide show being you locked in a room with a projector playing the slides on a wall you can't look away from.
Its a trick, a slight of hand to make what they wanted to do work with the tools they had.
In reality you're probably never ever going to notice it without being told, or breaking the game.
You can't devote a ton of time and resources to some minor element you see for a couple minutes and never think twice about so they work with what they have.
It doesn't need to be great, just good enough.
Think about the cantina scene or jabba's palace in star wars. There a bunch of really cool and memorable aliens in those scenes that everyone remembers. But you know what else is in those scenes? A bunch of dudes in cheap rubber masks and wolfman costumes in the background.
>Its just like the ending slide show being you locked in a room with a projector playing the slides on a wall you can't look away from.
very noticeable when the game forgets to stop an NPC from following you and one starts at you for the entirety of the ending slides. as expected from The Frontier
VR is just SE with VR support, just like Fallout 4, they served as test beds that they could profit off of
11 months ago
Anonymous
>release Skyrim VR as a testbed >put nearly no effort or budget into it >becomes one of the most beloved VR games instantly >release a bunch of half-assed shitty VR spinoffs that nobody likes because they're just neutered versions of the full games with a VR-original plot >years later everyone is still playing Skyrim VR and its grown into the pinnacle of VR game technology >people are still buying Skyrim VR at full price >never touch VR again or acknowledge the success of Skyrim VR
11 months ago
Anonymous
they do have Fallout 4 VR
it has exactly one of the VR improvement mods that Skyrim has and that's VRIK
11 months ago
Anonymous
To be fair it doesn't need as many improvements since the shootan was already decent and much better for VR than weightless ghost melee weapons which it also has but eh
Goddamn the swimming is rough though
Also I think the reason its not as popular is because Skyrim just has a weird grip on people (especially advanced modders) and also it runs like shit. Base Skyrim VR will run on a toaster
>rerelease the game 9 times >never fix any of the original bugs >even though modders have painstakingly documented and fixed most of them and also begged with each rerelease for Bethesda to fix them >said bugs aren't all minor and a number of them are gamebreaking
While I usually excoriate such practices, Bethesda takes it to such an extreme I'm cowed by their audacity
11 months ago
Anonymous
>even though modders have painstakingly documented and fixed most of them and also begged with each rerelease for Bethesda to fix them
The Unofficial Patch isn't a fix. >Bethesda takes it to such an extreme
Because people keep buying the game, other games like Alpha Protocol and CP2077 remain broken with zero fixes
>bad
Its something you never would have noticed without someone telling our deliberately looking for it.
It does its job.
My question has always been why bethesda never invested in a bespoke modular game engine capable of letting you use ladders, keeping track of a billion quest items across a large map, and not having to hide everything behind multiple load screens that bloat over the course of the game.
I haven't played a bethesda game since skyrim, but I suspect fallout 4 was pretty much more of the same.
And hell, if you build something like that in house, and its good, you can always license it out, and fund further development on licensing fees and professional feedback.
Money.
Developing and supporting new engine cost shitload of money and time.
Teaching all teams everything your new can cost shitload of money and time.
Having a subpar engine with a team that knows it inside-out and can hack together what was previously considered impossible is more profitable.
Fair enough, I'm sure its an investment, but I'm just thinking about a company worth seven billion dollary doos founded mostly on making the same game with a new paint job.
And if you can do it right, just look at Tim Sweeney, he rode unreal to the fricking bank and it became an industry standard.
But you're right. It's time and money, and no one wants to spend more than they have to.
making a different controller for vehicles isn't even that difficult. normally you'd have an abstraction for controllers that can be implemented for different types, such as characters, vehicles or mounts.
stairs have issues because in games u have a lot less precise control of how you move around the world compared to irl
so stairs need to be significantly larger, as do a lot of walkways and platforms, so stairs up end up being really big, cumbersome, and awkward in games
which is why u see ladders so much
it's not any worse than the dumb shit other devs do
Wing Commander had a fatal error that happened when you quit the game, and instead of fixing the error they just changed the output of the error message to THANK YOU FOR PLAYING!
there are some boss fights in WoW that have hundreds of invisible NPCs in the room
No because it was used for a short cut scene and not gameplay.
Tricks like pic rel were and still are common in game design when it comes to odd one off situation where it isn't worth the time and effort to go through the pain in the ass of making a whole new system or animation for X thing needs to look good enough for less than a minute.
It's a perfect solution if is 1 instance where a vehicle was used. Only a complete fricking moron would waste time making huge changes to the engine to do it the "real way".
I guarantee you a ton of AAA games have done some shit like this and you just don't know about it because they don't let morons poke around their engine like basedthesda does. If you've played video games longer than 5 years you've had to have encountered hearing your character land on the ground at the beginning of a cutscene or behind a main menu.
No, all games do this. The engine can handle vehicles, you see vertibirds flying all the time. This was a 30 second train ride from a DLC, but Gankereddittors are too moronic to actually look into it. We would've never known this if Bethesda never released the mod tools.
>We would've never known this if Bethesda never released the mod tools.
Even years after they didn't know until trainwiz was making his train mod and showed what it actually was.
>morons ITT still think this myth is real >morons ITT think it's easier to replace a model's head with an entire train than to simply use a train asset and have it slide along the ground
It's pretty funny regardless.
no, why design an entire working tram system for one cutscene?
https://www.pcgamer.com/heres-whats-happening-inside-fallout-3s-metro-train/
If it works then it works but really they should have been able to make it work without doing moronic shit like this if their engine wasn't so shit and outdated.
they did though
they updated the engine so they could add dragons n sheet
and yet even with all the updates, starfield still won't have land vehicles.
its absolutely embarrassing, but a creative way to handle the problem
It's clever programming out of necessity of having to work within the parameters of the fricking awful Gamebryo engine. Those games are full of tricks like that like like models being halfway into the floor or models loaded underneath the floor or merchants having an unaccesible chest underground for their inventory.
Game developer-wise, no, it's not bad. And it's not bad that the player is learning about it either-- it's just some goofy stuff that works in the game. Besides, the player (usually) won't learn about the work-arounds to various problems in the programming, so it's irrelevant if it's 'bad' for this kind of stuff to exist (Also just a "whatever" kinda thing. Can we also stop getting this thread over and over again? I know that happens constantly on this board, but goodness, this is the like, the 7th time this week I've seen this.).
Ritualposting is comforting for the severely autistic
this is the kind of kinojank that made old games good. you just know this was thought up by some overworked sleep deprived white man at 4am
>train hats
don't give him any ideas
You're a little late for that, they added a train hat in a christmas update.
Nobody liked it though.
Cant stop the gay ben.
The problem isn't the solution as much as it is that even now, they still can't figure it out.
Fallout 4 has a working train via the Nuka world intro tram
it's actually a train glove that you wear, not an NPC. You just get forced to do a specific walk sequence in the cut scene to make it look like it's moving.
I'm suprised they didn't invent a ladder glove and play a climbing cutscene to simulate ladders in the games.
Why do we need ladder/climbing cutscenes in games?
This is what I've been thinking, why do people even care about ladders? How fricking often do you climb ladders in real life? If anything, ladders feel like a lazy way to get players to move vertically, From Soft games are especially bad with this.
In dark souls I find they either give a good berth from pursuing enemies or a (sometimes perceived) moment of vulnerability. First time going through blight town I was afraid of those damn bugs knocking me off the ladder.
They are a bad way to move vertically and that is the point. They are often a limited and scary thing to do, because they make you vulnerable. That's why From likes to use them in Dark Souls, because they provide an excellent choke point against enemies, but also make for a problem if you are trying to get away. This is why most devs don't use ladders if they want players to be engaged with level design, because climbing sections fricking suck, with very few exceptions.
>climbing sections fricking suck
Nuh uh, look at this excellent and riveting gameplay
It's purely material to shitpost about, nobody who complains about ladders knows the first thing about game development. They might as well be saying "vidya mojo" when they say the word game engine.
>How fricking often do you climb ladders in real life?
Not often enough, I dunno why but its surprisingly fun
>How fricking often do you climb ladders in real life?
How often do you go anywhere for a quest? Or go on an adventure? Obviously you'd have to climb if you ever did anything of importance but you don't, you just go to work and the grocery store.
why do we need an open world in games?
Geez I don’t know maybe they can add uhh STAIRS and if you wanna go up really fast elevators
oh boy overexaggeration! i can do that too:
>Functional ladders? Gee, what's next, modeling npcs down to their DNA?
>tfw in a million years this could be possible
why are bethescucks so sensitive about ladders?
>true colors revealed
lulz
Imagine seeing the same point brought up for the past decade and it getting explained multiple times why you’re wrong and why it doesn’t matter. Where do you ladder guys even come from? Cause you clearly aren’t downloading the ladder mods that already exist, no one is downloading those.
I see them campaign for RTX too, another memey feature
>you’re wrong and why it doesn’t matter
i dunno man it just sounds like sour grapes
>you clearly aren’t downloading the ladder mods
of course not. i dont play garbage games
i have no strong feelings about ladders, i'm just confused about the strong anti-ladder reactions
Yeah we’re aware you don’t play the games when you brought up ladders
Because it's every fricking thread like this
So many people give these guys explanations
And they respond with some shit like "DURR BETHKEKS HATE LADDERS" it's annoying I just want to talk about the silly cheesewheel games.
It's a pretty tired critique, of all things to (justifiably) criticize Bethesda for, ladders are a really small issue, if an issue at all.
Why are you so obsessed with them?
Most of the time ladders would be used as siege equipment. It wouldn't always be something for you, but the animations would obviously be something that you can use for enemies to make them more dynamic. Elder Scrolls having climbing enemies would be far better than what goes on now, where an enemy has to have a step because they can't jump or climb up a waist high ledge.
Aren't they typically used to mask load times, kind of like crawling through ventilation ducts? The player gets to keep "playing" while the game renders a cliff face and some doodads as it loads the next large area into memory.
So window dressing, like the train?
Looks like the game was rigged from the start
This is a bad faith argument. What you're showing is a literal cutscene horseshit. Ladders provide a quick lateral movement at the price of being out in the open and defenceless. You can make arenas interesting with ladders if there's other routes or to vantage points.
>open and defenceless
boooring, and what's the point?
use your jetpack or jump down if it's not that steep
>use your jetpack
The thing that didn't exist before the game that hasn't come out yet?
Its simply a way to utilize some verticality in your game without stairs or going through loading screens.
>The thing that didn't exist before the game that hasn't come out yet?
Once again proving you do not play vidya games
>inb4 it's a late game item
moving goalposts
are you sure you aren't mixing it up with the Fallout 4 baby gauntlet?
The problem with ladders is more that there's so much shit they have to account for that can happen while you're on a ladder. For instance if it's going to be like Dark Souls where you can be kicked off a ladder, how's that going to work if you are in first person? It's not the '90s anymore, you can't just have the player fall down feet first and make a bone crunching sound. If they boot you to third person to play an animation then it's going to feel shitty and unfun just like it did in Skyrim. And that's just for vertical ladders, what about leaning ladders? If you put in leaning ladders, should you let players move them and possibly break a whole bunch of shit? Or will they be nonsensically glued in place in a game where messing with objects is half the fun? I can't blame Todd for not wanting to open that can of worms.
It isn't even an NPC. It's YOU. They swap out your head for the train, so that it looks like you are sitting down. It's a clever work around and games use to do this shit all the time. Actually making a working vehicle was simply a flex and while that is nice, it only matters for games where others can interact with you in that vehicle. Now if Fallout 3 had wanted to do a Murder on the Orient Express kind of thing and had that as a set piece, they could have easily reused that stuff for the tram, but it likely was beyond their scope of what they could conceivably do with the engine at the time. I mean, Skyrim could BARELY do a wagon and that was simply for the start of the game. Trying to mod in moving wagons for travel is absolute shit.
Trainhead-chan is my waifu
does she have fanart?
Only in my head
she doesn't exist, trainwiz posted that picture a decade ago to demonstrate how the train worked (your character wears it so the model encapsulates your vision) and morons played the game of telephone with it to imagine it's some npc in her underwear escorting you instead
It's actually a pretty smart workaround
There's only one instance of a working train so something like this is perfectly adequate
I imagine the guy who came up with this solution got promoted
Spotted the moronic child who obviously knows nothing about how companies work. You fricking underage moron. Bet you're a commie too. troony loving commie homosexual
It's stupid because 10 years later they're still doing the same thing
They could have taken the time to fix the engine once and do it right and instead they decided to do it the lazy stupid way
Don't fix what ain't broke
It does the job so it's good enough
again, they literally did
Skyrim literally has horses idiot, actually oblivion has horses too so this being the “engine can’t handle vehicles” is you just being moron
Not to mention that Frontier mod with fully functioning vehicles with suspension physics and everything. The engine is capable of whatever Bethesda is capable of coding, which evidently ain't much. Stop shitting on the engine.
>Lazy stupid way is a genius workaround that looks exactly how it shoud
Huh? The stupid way would be implementing features into the engine that aren't needed
>It's stupid because 10 years later they're still doing the same thing
Nuka World had a working train you could move around in, Far Harbor had a working boat. They have working elevators and there was a huge working rollercoaster.
>It's stupid because 10 years later they're still doing the same thing
Every developer in the history of developing has used a programming shortcut to help development times.
If Bethesda truly was doing the same shit over again children models would just be smaller adult models scaled down, but they're actual different models now in Starfield.
$10 says that this is the case ONLY because Microsoft bought them out and told them to get their shit in order.
It's been a few decades now. Did they finally get ladders working in their engine?
No, it's still simply a door by a different name that teleports you to a location. Why make the effort to show your character climbing?
Bethesda? I dont think so.
But modders managed to hack together working ladders in Skyrim
Kinda, I do mods for Oblivion and Skyrim.
The biggest issue I have with the engine though is the way records work, I don't know if there's a better way to do it, but the way the engine is incapable of merging different edits to one record is nightmare inducing.
>One mod changes a sword's model.
>Another mod changes the damage, but the rest of the record is the same as vanilla.
>Which is loaded last in the load order will overwrite all changes, overwriting the entirety of the record and nullifying the changes made by the other.
Awful, especially cell changes and landscape edits.
It's fairly obvious that the game was never meant to be modded. Minecraft was the same way for the longest time. That's why Forge was created, so that more mods could be loaded and we wouldn't run into issues where one mod wanted to overwrite a certain .class file which was essential for some other mod, making them incompatible.
I'd agree but I simultaneously think Bethesda's games would be far less glitchy if they had a better system for modifying and managing records.
This engine still cant do ladders. Literally, you cannot have a textured surface that the player can "stick" to and move vertically. To. This. Day.
Bully SE was made with gamebyro and it has working ladders. You don’t know what you’re talking about
Yeah and some autist modded working ladders into skyrim
We have to wait and pray that Starfield's CE2 saves everything
>muh ladders
Why are you gays so obsessed with ladders?
A climbing animation adds nothing substantial to a game but you lot act like it's the most essential aspect of one
jumping and walking animations don't add anything substantial either
the player should just be a green cylinder textured with the word "test" written in comic sans.
>I am very silly
okay I'll bite, how do climbing animations not add anything? Are you saying that climbing itself is a superfluous mechanic?
Depends. In modern games it's just a cutscene disguised as gameplay (doesn't add anything, and takes me out of the experience because I recognize it as such).
But something like Daggerfall has meaningful climbing.
If you try to suggest Daggerfall-style climbing as optional traversal method in modern game - level design team will beat the shit out of you behind the parking lot, with AI programmers joining in later
Can't even having levitation in a new TES game, baka my head
Instanced cities fricked over a lot of features.
And, I gues, doing another Vivek was not an option.
nta, but I would say I think Bethesda should focus more on polishing their titles in the core areas, rather than adding jank mechanics that'd cause way more bugs for them in the end. They need to focus more on proper polish and QA, rather than technical features imo. Even Oblivion is ahead of titles like ER or BOTW 1-2 due to the AI system (in all its jank and flaws).
That and more player agency/customization and choices like other RPGs (whatever titles you consider to be good examples for such, BG 1-2-3, Witcher whatever).
see
oh and
>climb ladder slowly, get shot by 8 dudes and die defenseless
vs
>using stairs, can run up and shoot a gun too
vs
>booster pack lol
Why would I ever use the ladder option? There’s a reason ladder mods are janky as frick and no one downloads them
first of all these games are first person and dont need an animation to climb ladders. you should be able to walk up to one and the player "hooks" onto it and is able to go up and down like in Stalker or Deus Ex. Its simply another traversal option. It doesnt have to be just ladders too, ropes or rock faces could have climbable surfaces
Can't be doing it that way because Bethesda's AI would fricking explode trying traverse with those kind of ladders, Todd admitted as much.
Considering that their AI uses basic pathing trying to calculate the shortest way to you, I can imagine. I always laugh when it's found that there is a section of flat floor in the games that doesn't have nav meshes on it. Now try putting a nav mesh onto a ladder and getting the AI to use it. Now add on the fact that the player can probably make it shorter to get to them by moving closer to the stairs a couple feet away. Now the AI abandons the ladder for the steps and you can simply go back and forth like this. AI slow climb up and down. Todd would be right to not try it.
Ladders in gaems have been historically shit
It either sucks you in when you're trying to run off a ledge or sends you falling to your death when you're slightly off. Just have stairs of some shit, man.
every single game in existence has window dressing
>YOU CANT JUST RUIN THE HECKIN CHARMARINO BRO!!!
Really though, you're right but I like that. It's exactly like magic, you know shit probably isn't real but you can't explain it (sometimes). If you know code and game a lot you can probably spot a lot.
Limitation breeds creativity but sometimes you gotta be honest with yourself and admit that you're working with SHIT
No. It's the ultimate midwit filter.
It’s not bad.
It is just funny.
Reminder that this wasn't even the solution used in game.
You are all moronic.
Not really no, but lots of people who have never made a game seem to think so. If youve made so much as one game, you know theres a lot of smoke and mirrors to make things work. Its like a button that closes the game, the button doesnt close the game because the button says close the game, youve madea button that closes the game and as such have written "close the game" on it
Why does vidya have the lowest IQ coders in the entire tech industry?
they pay like shit. any programmer that knows what they're doing even a little bit can get paid 3x as much at an entry level real job.
I don't remember there being a train ride in fallout 3.
>Spotted the moronic child who obviously knows nothing about how companies work. You fricking underage moron. Bet you're a commie too. troony loving commie homosexual
She's right
If you think this is weird, just wait until you see what “scientific simulation” codes use to make sure your airbags will work properly.
That's a lie though. Even though the Frontier was otherwise shit, it showed Gamebryo is in fact capable of simulating vehicle physics.
No. Only morons who don't know anything about programming but insist on talking about it anyway say otherwise.
Sometimes you just have to do weird tricks to get games to work and nobody knows why.
If it works then it's not bad. You do what you can within the limitations of the engine that you're working with.
>Creative solution that works and doesn't require a new system to be designed
Yes and whoever thought of it deserves a promotion.
Yes, the idea of the train being a hat for a human model in Skyrim was initially thought to be far-fetched, but upon closer inspection, there is evidence to support this theory. Firstly, the train only appears in certain locations, which could indicate that it is not a natural phenomenon but rather something created by a person.
Additionally, the fact that the train has a set route and schedule suggests that it may be controlled by some sort of intelligence. Finally, the train's appearance is inconsistent with other trains seen in Tamriel, further supporting the notion that it may be a unique creation.
Therefore, while the idea may seem absurd at first glance, there is merit to the argument that the train in Skyrim is indeed a hat for a human model.
copy pasting chatgpt responses isn't clever or funny
They do similar shit in VtM:B
All the doors and other interactables like the taxi have an NPC hidden in them. For some reason they all got made visible partway through my playthrough
WoW's quest system is set up so that every non-kill objective is tied to an invisible bunny NPC that dies to trigger completion.
Realistically? No. Stuff like this is standard and is expected of devs.
Should this have been necessary? No. For an open world game and coming from a dev that "specializes" in making open world games this is inexcusable.
I'm aware that Obsidian made this and not Bethesda, but they're still using Gamebyro.
That is the capitol express from the beginning of one of the DLC for fallout 3.
The train in New Vegas never moves. Its there when you load into the train station, and when you get on it loads you into the other end.
Then all the more reason Bethesda should be ashamed.
I swear that they're the worst active game devs right next to Gamefreak.
FRICK YOU Black person
YWNBAW
KYS
homosexual
Its just like the ending slide show being you locked in a room with a projector playing the slides on a wall you can't look away from.
Its a trick, a slight of hand to make what they wanted to do work with the tools they had.
In reality you're probably never ever going to notice it without being told, or breaking the game.
You can't devote a ton of time and resources to some minor element you see for a couple minutes and never think twice about so they work with what they have.
It doesn't need to be great, just good enough.
Think about the cantina scene or jabba's palace in star wars. There a bunch of really cool and memorable aliens in those scenes that everyone remembers. But you know what else is in those scenes? A bunch of dudes in cheap rubber masks and wolfman costumes in the background.
>Its just like the ending slide show being you locked in a room with a projector playing the slides on a wall you can't look away from.
very noticeable when the game forgets to stop an NPC from following you and one starts at you for the entirety of the ending slides. as expected from The Frontier
But Gamefreak has basically been making the same game over and over again for decades. You can't really compare that to Bethesda games.
>implying Bethesda hasn't been releasing the same game over and over again for decades
Game Freak copy-pastes the same assets over and over and over again. They're still using models from the 3DS games, lmao.
>You can't really compare that to Bethesda games
...
1000 Creation Club Points have been deposited into your account.
>You can't really compare that to Bethesda games.
anon there are 9 versions of skyrim
Skyrim
Skyrim SE
Skyrim AE
tbf AE is an update
You forgot Skyrim VR
VR is just SE with VR support, just like Fallout 4, they served as test beds that they could profit off of
>release Skyrim VR as a testbed
>put nearly no effort or budget into it
>becomes one of the most beloved VR games instantly
>release a bunch of half-assed shitty VR spinoffs that nobody likes because they're just neutered versions of the full games with a VR-original plot
>years later everyone is still playing Skyrim VR and its grown into the pinnacle of VR game technology
>people are still buying Skyrim VR at full price
>never touch VR again or acknowledge the success of Skyrim VR
they do have Fallout 4 VR
it has exactly one of the VR improvement mods that Skyrim has and that's VRIK
To be fair it doesn't need as many improvements since the shootan was already decent and much better for VR than weightless ghost melee weapons which it also has but eh
Goddamn the swimming is rough though
Also I think the reason its not as popular is because Skyrim just has a weird grip on people (especially advanced modders) and also it runs like shit. Base Skyrim VR will run on a toaster
>rerelease the game 9 times
>never fix any of the original bugs
>even though modders have painstakingly documented and fixed most of them and also begged with each rerelease for Bethesda to fix them
>said bugs aren't all minor and a number of them are gamebreaking
While I usually excoriate such practices, Bethesda takes it to such an extreme I'm cowed by their audacity
>even though modders have painstakingly documented and fixed most of them and also begged with each rerelease for Bethesda to fix them
The Unofficial Patch isn't a fix.
>Bethesda takes it to such an extreme
Because people keep buying the game, other games like Alpha Protocol and CP2077 remain broken with zero fixes
>Was this actually that bad?
It wasn't actually that good. Irregardless, I find it hilarious.
Gamebryo was hilariously bad pre-Skyrim SE.
>bad
Its something you never would have noticed without someone telling our deliberately looking for it.
It does its job.
My question has always been why bethesda never invested in a bespoke modular game engine capable of letting you use ladders, keeping track of a billion quest items across a large map, and not having to hide everything behind multiple load screens that bloat over the course of the game.
I haven't played a bethesda game since skyrim, but I suspect fallout 4 was pretty much more of the same.
And hell, if you build something like that in house, and its good, you can always license it out, and fund further development on licensing fees and professional feedback.
Money.
Developing and supporting new engine cost shitload of money and time.
Teaching all teams everything your new can cost shitload of money and time.
Having a subpar engine with a team that knows it inside-out and can hack together what was previously considered impossible is more profitable.
Fair enough, I'm sure its an investment, but I'm just thinking about a company worth seven billion dollary doos founded mostly on making the same game with a new paint job.
And if you can do it right, just look at Tim Sweeney, he rode unreal to the fricking bank and it became an industry standard.
But you're right. It's time and money, and no one wants to spend more than they have to.
They did, it's called Creation Engine 2 and it's being used for Starfield.
Silent Hill's engine couldn't handle pyramids, or something.
TF2 hats getting a bit out of hand
how can an engine be so bad?
i've heard of chainsawman, but this is heads on rails!
>Was this actually that bad?
Notice how they are still not adding vehicles to their latest slop? Yes, it is that bad.
making a different controller for vehicles isn't even that difficult. normally you'd have an abstraction for controllers that can be implemented for different types, such as characters, vehicles or mounts.
ladders are an easy way to add verticality to a level what are you Black folk on about
oh right you dont play video games
what are stairs
stairs have issues because in games u have a lot less precise control of how you move around the world compared to irl
so stairs need to be significantly larger, as do a lot of walkways and platforms, so stairs up end up being really big, cumbersome, and awkward in games
which is why u see ladders so much
it's not any worse than the dumb shit other devs do
Wing Commander had a fatal error that happened when you quit the game, and instead of fixing the error they just changed the output of the error message to THANK YOU FOR PLAYING!
there are some boss fights in WoW that have hundreds of invisible NPCs in the room
There are a lot of armchair programmers in here.
Hows the 5th grade homosexuals?
You are all fricking morons. Engine can have working ladders. Engine can have working cars.
Hey didn't the original creator chain it to that shitty frontier thing and take down any mods for it
hey if it works it works
No because it was used for a short cut scene and not gameplay.
Tricks like pic rel were and still are common in game design when it comes to odd one off situation where it isn't worth the time and effort to go through the pain in the ass of making a whole new system or animation for X thing needs to look good enough for less than a minute.
It's a perfect solution if is 1 instance where a vehicle was used. Only a complete fricking moron would waste time making huge changes to the engine to do it the "real way".
I guarantee you a ton of AAA games have done some shit like this and you just don't know about it because they don't let morons poke around their engine like basedthesda does. If you've played video games longer than 5 years you've had to have encountered hearing your character land on the ground at the beginning of a cutscene or behind a main menu.
That's not merely a train.
THAT IS A FEMALE TRAIN!
CHOO CHOO
No, all games do this. The engine can handle vehicles, you see vertibirds flying all the time. This was a 30 second train ride from a DLC, but Gankereddittors are too moronic to actually look into it. We would've never known this if Bethesda never released the mod tools.
>We would've never known this if Bethesda never released the mod tools.
Even years after they didn't know until trainwiz was making his train mod and showed what it actually was.
>trainwiz was making his train mod and showed what it actually was.
yup
Not really, Bethesda is guilty of far worse crimes
But it is pretty funny
No, it's not.
Better tell me, are there any games that run optimal simulations without any tricks?
star citizen
It has actually released?
he said optimal, not "vibrate at the speed of light and explode with a 75% chance to crash any involved players"
if the game works, does it matter how it works?
>morons ITT still think this myth is real
>morons ITT think it's easier to replace a model's head with an entire train than to simply use a train asset and have it slide along the ground
Burden of proof is on you to disprove it chud, we have a widely circulated jpg on our side
>sliding floor
>non-lethal projectile
why not just make it an NPC and call it a day?