Well. I don't know how to ask this in a satisfying way, but I am looking for a traditional 3D Zelda game that does Zelda better than Zelda. I've already played all the classic games and they're generally middling or just bad, and when they're not, they have some flaw or problem that prevents them from being good. The problem with saying this is that I know most people to think of almost all 3D Zelda as good, even if not great, and I know others to think of atleast 1 or 2 as great, when I'd say none of them are. So I'll have to explain I guess.
Well I want to play something fun and particular and get off this shit board for discussion filled with worthless human beings so I'll try to be brief.
There are 3 basic pillars of Zelda dungeons: Navigation, Traversal, "Interaction" For the sake of simplicity "combat" doesn't really count as interaction because I almost went on a tirade trying to justify that. Combat is mostly filler. I find this hard to disagree with but whatever.
Navigation in 3D Zelda can never be complicated or interesting because it's a key hunt (just check every room you haven't checked) and there is only ever 1 key you can use at a time...in EVERY single 3D Zelda dungeon. There isn't a single one that breaks this rule.
Traversal is pretty self explanatory. You literally have an auto jump. There isn't enough control to platforming for the game to challenge it in any meaningful capacity.
And "interaction". If not combat then this should go to puzzles. I've simplified these pillars a lot because they can criss cross in more complicated games, but in Zelda they rarely do. Zelda barely, rarely even has puzzles anyway. More often than not its "rock paper scissors" where the solution is like this:
"Shoot and Arrow at an eye". In this context the arrow is the rock and the eye the scissors. Most Zelda puzzles are like this.
I'm looking for a game like Zelda, but better. And...
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And...I remember having expressed something like this in the past and being weirdly suggested Jedi Fallen Order of all games. I'm curious to all types of games that could meet this criteria. But I've tried to do some light research on this game and apparently it's considered a sort of 3D metroidvania with actually decent exploration where you need to actually look at and understand your map? That sounds interesting. Not sure about the puzzles, or just general sense of "adventure". The reason I'm so currently attached to Zelda is kind of due to a dumb childhood fantasy, but the principle of that fantasy is finding tools along your journey and having to use them creatively to overcome your obstacles. I already said why Zelda games kinda due this poorly.
Stuff like "shoot arrow at eye" is too abstract, arbitrary and simple as rock paper scissors to really give a sense of being an adventurer that has the tools for the job and moreso makes me feel like I'm just playing a game of "Simon says" but that pretends to be grander than that.
I guess I'm curious what people think about Jedi Fallen Order in regards to what I said? Does it apply? Does it cover navigation, traversal and puzzles? And if not, then what is its strength and why do you think somebody might suggest it?
That's all I guess. Don't expect discussion on Ganker. But gotta try.
I like Fallen Order. It's got some sort of lite metroidvania aspects to it, but it's pretty typical "backtrack and use your new ability to open up a new path" shit. But there was on one level I got lost in and came upon a whole different environment in it and that felt great. It's got some puzzles with force powers, they're not better than Zelda but they were better than Uncharted puzzles for actually making use of game mechanics.
>they're not better than Zelda
in what way. give an example of a better Zelda puzzle.
They're not better than Zelda because they're just as braindead and rock-paper-scissor-like as OP described.
>they're just as braindead
I don't know why you're injecting words into my mouth. I never said the problem with Zelda puzzles was being "brain-dead" that's a surface level understanding. Rock Paper Scissors puzzles ARENT puzzles period. They're not puzzles at all. There's nothing to figure out or solve. Which is why I doubt you understand what I'm saying. When I use that term and are just stupidly applying "rock paper scissors must just mean easy puzzles!". Puzzles are supplemented by context and...well nevermind I don't want to get into the philosophy of puzzles
The point is that I literally have zero reason to think what you're saying is true when you haven't bothered to give any proof or basis.
What makes JFO puzzles like shooting an arrow at an eye for arbitrary reasons?
You're not as smart as you think are you. Shut the frick up and play JFO then and enjoy force-pushing a boulder so it rolls onto a button.
And I don't give a frick about your insecurity. have a nice day get out of my thread and never reply to me again. I swear to god I wish I had another explanation for this phenomenon so I don't have to resort to a moronic borderline buzzword like "insecurity".
When somebody CONSTANTLY needs to point out and assert that somebody "isn't smart". when no point or argument is being made about who is smarter than who. AS they're responding to somebody criticizing their lack of understanding of something. It's almost impossible to come to any other conclusion but the idea that somebody is immensely insecure and threatened by having their intelligence put to question.
Either respond directly to the point or have a nice day. Nothing about inherently pushing a boulder explains anything.
Baba is you is just "pushing blocks" together. Portal is just "shooting a opening at a wall".
When I say "rock paper scissors" I am very specific. EXTREMELY specific. I SPECIFICALLY don't give ice block pushing puzzles as an example of rock paper scissors design even when they exist within Zelda games because those are ACTUAL puzzles. Despite the fact you're literally pushing a block onto a switch. You need to be aware of momentum. Aware of set paths, aware of positioning. And work around restrictions.
There ARE examples of block pushing in Zelda games that are braindead. There are a lot of literal "push block on switch" puzzles, especially in OoT. Or literally "hit switch with something". You're not overcoming a restriction. Considering your environment or the conditions of what you can interact with. You're simple "solving rock, with paper".
Fricking moron.
I come into your thread. We both agree that Zelda's content is mostly braindead "rock paper scissor" shit. So I think, hey, I'll warn this guy JTFO is just as bad so he doesn't waste his time, since he apparently wants GOOD puzzles (but apparently you're still happy with braindead boulder-pushing puzzles because you need to be aware of momentum, set paths, positioning - listen to me, yes, but the ones in JFO are not impressive, you'll waste your time going in for the,). Instead of being grateful for my help, you take issue because I was willing to use the word "puzzle" at al. Now look at you. Frick you. Frick your "extremely specific" language, and frick how you punish those who want to help you for it. How many people hate you?
>We both agree that Zelda's content is mostly braindead "rock paper scissor" shit.
No. You're a fricking moron. You gave no reference for a "rock paper scissors" puzzle. You applied the word "braindead" as if that was the problem I was describing. Demonstrating a lack of understanding of my criticism since NO WHERE does it mention the words "easy" or "brain-dead". It is VERY specific. SO absurdly specific that it's even an analogy.
The fact that you gave no example for reference, on top of misunderstanding the point calling it "rock paper scissors" is to mean "it's too easy". Demonstrates that you don't even fricking know what you're "agreeing" with. I wouldn't care as much as would nicely reexplain if not for the fact that you proved yourself to be a moron that can only engage with moronic labels like "autistic" and insecure middle school jabs like "y-youre not as smart as you think!!"
have a nice day and dont respond to me again. You're far too moronic to ever contribute anything of substance to anything ever. Fricking worthless. I don't know where these people come from. They can't even have the awareness to realize their moronation because they just side handwave whatever criticism they don't like. Die.
> Zelda barely, rarely even has puzzles anyway. More often than not its "rock paper scissors" where the solution is like this:
"Shoot and Arrow at an eye". In this context the arrow is the rock and the eye the scissors.
> NO, NEVER SAID THAT ZELDA PUZZLES ARE BRAINDEAD, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M SAYING BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T USE THE EXACT SAME WORDS AS ME!!!
You have severe problems with language and do not deserve to speak to strangers on the internet for this.
oh wait...I mean this is a depressing conclusion to make. but maybe it explains things...honestly I'm too disillusioned to want to respond to this in depth. but it's frustrating when you have to deal with people that act in an "irrational way" that has implicit validity due to being "normal".
It happened as well with that other guy that tried implying that you can't criticize somebody trying to help because the expressed effort of trying to help is inherently good or whatever?
anyway the point is that I don't think of things as black and white or one dimensional.
I actually used to think the problem with Zelda was "puzzles are too brain-dead". but not only did I espouse that one time and realize how vague my criticism was. But I also a while ago experienced a game with "easy" puzzles that were so clever and revelatory that it didn't matter. And then I also remembered experiencing a puzzle game with series of puzzles that were "hard" but was ultimately boring and unsatisfying.
THIS is how I think. I play games, contrast games with other games, try to identify and rid the similarities, to highlight the unique qualities blah blah blah.
It was actually Majora's mask that made all these thoughts come to mind. Because I didn't actually think about it that deeply, until I wanted to understand why Majora's Mask's woodfall temple was so fun for me.
My point is that nobody ever considers these things deeply enough to even understand what I'm saying. But it's also not THAT deep. I give all the context that's necessary. Is it THAT much trouble to expect somebody to take a simple leap of logic. Or not introduce any assumptions and bias and conclude I'm talking about "ease of difficulty"? When that's not mentioned anywhere?
The rock paper scissors analogy should be obvious, because nobody thinks of rock paper scissors as something to be "solved". It's just "this beats this". To play the game you have to understand the rules and not the function.
>But I also a while ago experienced a game with "easy" puzzles that were so clever and revelatory that it didn't matter.
Which was?
Face it. He blew you the frick out.
>I guess I'm curious what people think about Jedi Fallen Order in regards to what I said? Does it apply?
no it's almost entirely combat
there are a few puzzles and some platforming sections with the wall run.
exploring can be good because there's optional bosses and stuff but there's not much to see. usually you do some uncharted climbing and then get a pink poncho. and uncharted climbing doesn't count as gameplay.
the combat is very good and the story is good, that's why you would play it
for zelda but better: okami, bayonetta origins, ys 8
>no it's almost entirely combat
you'd be surprised how many Zelda games are "almost entirely combat" I wish you guys understood these games as closely as me. It's not about ego or anything. It was just an unbelievable revelation when I realized that for so many of these games, the only reason I called them "puzzle" games is because that's what they were called. Not what they actually were. The amount of times you get a key by killing every enemy in the room is unbelievable.
>there are a few puzzles and some platforming sections with the wall run.
that's already a lot more than Zelda, particularly the platforming sections but I'd need specifics I guess.
>exploring can be good because there's optional bosses and stuff but there's not much to see.
exploration isn't really about "seeing" things to me. It's more about figuring out how to navigate a particular space. rewards do matter, so the poncho stuff sounds disappointing, but if figuring out where to go is fun enough then it could be fine.
>uncharted climbing doesn't count as gameplay.
what is uncharted climbing to you? is it literally like how GOW2018 does climbing? where it's always obvious where to go, and it's just about pressing the analog stick in the right direction?
nobody cares
Are you the REgay? Why haven't you killed yourself yet?
>this moron thinks discussion is reading his moronic schizo babble and responding
kys already
Play Okami
Ive heard from someone before that this is a troll suggestion. So could you explain why or how it doesn't succumb to any of the same problems I have with Zelda? if you need elaboration on those problems with specific examples. I can provide aslong as I know that effort is worth it.
It has more complex "navigation" than zelda, since you have a jump button and actually get to do some platforming. I guess the puzzles fall into that "rock paper scissors" thing you described though.
>Ive heard from someone before that this is a troll suggestion
Ok? How about you just try it. You'll never find anything you like if you just spend all day writing autistic essays instead of actually playing games. Not every game has to be perfect and meet all your autistic fricking criteria in order for it to be enjoyable. I'd say that overall Okami does some things better than Zelda, and some things roughly the same as Zelda.
>Ok? How about you just try it. You'll never find anything you like if you just spend all day writing autistic essays instead of actually playing games. Not every game has to be perfect and meet all your autistic fricking criteria in order for it to be enjoyable. I'd say that overall Okami does some things better than Zelda, and some things roughly the same as Zelda.
Frick off and have a nice day. I don't care about your moronic perspective if you can't even justify or make a case for the game you recommend. Only a genuine and utter bot with no standards thinks a recommendation should be respected without any other thought or consideration. You're also such a genuinely unbelievable moron. Because it was a question to bait how fricking worthwhile your recommendation was. I've already attempted playing Okami before and the game was genuinely worse than most Zelda games. I asked for a justification because for me to believe it's anything other than that you'd have to make a strong case.
Fricking hell. I don't understand why there are so many morons like this here. morons that try to lecture you "You won't find a game you like if you make le autistic essays and don't just mindlessly consume like me! also can you tell I'm a moron because I can only characterize things by throwing label that communicates I don't like reading or understanding things?". have a nice day. I don't want your recommendations. They're worthless.
Can you use a tripcode please so I can filter your unhinged schizoid ramblings? Thanks.
He's too much of an attention prostitute to do that unfortunately.
its not about making a casey for a game i recommend. i just want to tell you off. i dont like you and dont want you to play my games.
>says this yet literally responded.
actual mental moron case.
frick off homosexual
If you look up games similar to Zelda you'll get games that maybe do one of those things better instead of the 3 at the same time. So I guess you'll have to settle for that or keep looking, but not on this board of course.
>If you look up games similar to Zelda you'll get games that maybe do one of those things better instead of the 3 at the same time.
I don't actually need all 3 to be fulfilled. Dark Souls (1) is a game I consider significantly better than all 3D Zelda and it only does a single of those 3 things well, if we ignore combat: Navigation.
I never actually expect any game to do all these 3 things well. A game that was able to do that might be the greatest videogame of all time. But that doesn't exist, and I'd also argue that generally casting your net wide instead of being focused, tends to result in weaker design.
The most important aspect of Zelda to me is picrel.
Having and collecting a unique set of tools, items, and abilities, that you use to apply to your environment to get around to dungeons and within dungeons.
The 2 Zelda games that do this the best OUTSIDE their dungeons are Wind Waker and skyward sword. Skyward Sword especially because the lead up to dungeons feel like a series of dungeon puzzles in and of themselves.
It's the unique aspect of puzzles with a varied amount of items or abilities to use to navigate dungeons that I'm looking for.
And here, I'll be even less strict. It doesn't even have to be "puzzles" strictly. It could be using items to traverse the enviroment. Idk. It just has to be centered around new items or abilities.
>The 2 Zelda games that do this the best OUTSIDE their dungeons are Wind Waker and skyward sword. Skyward Sword especially because the lead up to dungeons feel like a series of dungeon puzzles in and of themselves.
ALTTP does this the best
No the frick it does not lmao. I literally just played that game and you're beyond moronic if you think the dungeon lead ups are even close to a "dungeon before a dungeon". Literally almost every single way to the dungeon is just to beeline straight for that dungeon. The maze to palace of darkness is hardly a puzzle OR a dungeon. The way to the water dungeon who's name I forgot, is just "go to the dungeon and then turn into dark world outside and then pull a switch and go back out and in". I forgot the rest of the dungeons because they're just so fricking unmemorable, but thiefs hideout is literally just open to enter. Skull woods is the closest to what I'm talking about. But it doesn't count because it's whole gimmick is that it's a dungeon with an outside and inside part. Same with ice dungeon, the gimmick is almost always just to "turn to dark world by finding a portal after you got a new ability".
Also ALTTP item usage outside and in dungeons suck.
In dungeons you can barely ever be expected to use more than 1 item other than the ones you got from before the dark world dungeons because almost all the dungeons can technically be done out of order.
A links awakening is actually closer to how 3D Zelda would approach pre dunegon tasks. Where the game sends you on some meandering roundabout quest until you can get to the dungeons, like getting all the golden feathers for that prince dude.
But I wouldn't put that in the tier of skyward sword since it's not remotely a puzzle at any time, and also is too short to feel like a dungeon before a dungeon. Barely tests any of your items uniquely too.
>No the frick it does not lmao.
Lol I agree. LttP's fans are for the most part pretty much morons who can't help but claim their game is the greatest in ways that it just absolutely isn't and where this is easy to demonstrate. They're so convinced that the game is this unassailable old school classic that's actually superior to everything else in all these ways it flatly false to match other games at, but they accuse fans of other games of having excess nostalgia for preferring them instead. They are the most delusional and hypocritical set of fans of the series.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gamingsuggestions/comments/6g38i3/xxninja666xxs_awesome_list_of_3d_zeldalikes_for_pc/
Portal is the ultimate "Zelda dungeon".
No. I've already played Portal and it only has one mechanic and item. Sure it gets a lot of use out of that. But that isn't the same or even close to Zelda items. And it's a strictly linear set of disconnected rooms. Nothing is ever gated that needs to be unlocked.
you might like call of duty black ops
try this one
Why? Never really heard Castlevania described as a puzzle game. I know metroidvanias technically apply to the "multiple tools thing" but they use tools more often than not as keys. Not as uniquely specific problem solvers.
Castlevania, God of War edition, is not Zelda.
It's more like 2D Zelda, but Crosscode has some pretty decent puzzles and dungeons.
>It's more like 2D Zelda, but Crosscode has some pretty decent puzzles and dungeons.
Ah yeah. I've heard about this one. I actually own the game. I should probably get around to it. But I really need to satisfy my 3D Zelda fill right now. Thanks tho
your options include:
beyond good and evil
darksiders
okami
psuedoregalia
its one of the best fricking games ever, no joke, i strongly suggest you play it.
Pacman. Undertale. Epic Mickey. Metroid.
Honestly, no one does puzzles and combat quite like Zelda. And nu-Zelda doesnt even do it right.
>Honestly, no one does puzzles and combat quite like Zelda.
If only they did it well. I wouldn't have to look elsewhere.
>beyond good and evil
don't know what to think of this. that's all, I've just heard it's a very mediocre game.
>darksiders
does it offer as much items and abilities for puzzles as Zelda? other than that I heard it has a Diablo style loot system which is a turn off.
>okami
I'm going to need BIG elaborations for this one.
>psuedoregalia
oh yeah, I've heard about this one, but most call it metroidvania more than like Zelda.
>its one of the best fricking games ever, no joke, i strongly suggest you play it.
yeah I've heard really good praise. I plan too as soon as I'm over my Zelda obsession.
just play okami. it's very obviously aping ocarina of time but the japanese setting is kino and it has more creative powers and feels better to control
darksiders is also aping ocarina of time but not in a very clever way. the combat is decent though
>just play okami. it's very obviously aping ocarina of time but the japanese setting is kino and it has more creative powers and feels better to control
fine. I've decided to give it another chance.
>beyond good and evil
Legit one of the greatest games of all time. Atmosphere and quests actually on par with the best of Zelda. Unfortunately, while the game has some interesting item usage and puzzles, it's short, linear in its main quest and lacks the open ended item based exploration you get in the best Zeldas. Definitely the most worth playing of all the Zelda clones though, by far.
>darksiders
Darksiders is mostly an action series which happens to be structured around Zelda style dungeons, which do have puzzles and abilities you might like. Has optional backtracking for pickups, but it otherwise very linear and straightforward in structure with little exploration. Diablo style loot system is in the second game, but not the first. Worth checking out, may or may not be to your taste.
>okami
Lol. Seriously this is just amazing trash. It would actually be hard to make a 'parody' of the worst faults of Zelda that was worse than this. It's a truly pathetic game, which is made even more embarrassing by the fact that you'd expect it to make creative use of the brush powers, but it just doesn't, it's just "use the thing on the thing" all the way through, while being constantly told what to do like a tutorial that never ends, leading from setpiece to setpiece. It's a "journalist game" par excellence. I can only assume that people who like this over Zelda are JRPG fans too braindead to even appreciate what Zelda gets right.
>Crosscode
Very good. I find it a bit too repetitive to call it great, but it's definitely an ambitious game worth playing.
>Legit one of the greatest games of all time.
really?
>and lacks the open ended item based exploration you get in the best Zeldas.
this is consistently the most failed aspect of Zelda's so I don't mind.
I hope you don't think like that anon that replied "ALTTP does this best" to something I said about Zelda overworlds.
I guess this is the one to check out if Okami is that bad. I'll still give Okami one chance for one dungeon to impress me but...
>Has optional backtracking for pickups
I hate this style of "exploration" so I'm good.
>Very good. I find it a bit too repetitive to call it great, but it's definitely an ambitious game worth playing.
Yeah I've heard this game is too long as well but of all the recommendations here it's the one I probably look forward too the most. too bad it's 2D
this was stupid, go back to the drawing board and try again
not reading all that but play ittle dew 1 and 2
Dark Souls would be nice if they tried to incorporate puzzles every once in a while. But it's a very focused experience. Focused on one idea supplemented by a set of intersecting mechanics.
It fulfills navigation. But nothing else. I sound harsher about the game than I feel. But I'm just looking for a game that embodies some of the aspects I've managed to value in Zelda games hopefully consistently.
bad thread
How long has OP been doing their tirade now?
A few weeks?
Months
Is this thread dead? Is there any point in giving my suggestion?
>convinced a guy with diagnosed ADHD to play Okami
>it gets good 50 hours in. trust me, bro.
Fricking kek
Nice work boys.
Another successful troll.
What does that mean? What is the meme of "it gets good later" or whatever. I've heard it so many times. That sounds like such a stupid and senseless concept. I must have dumped about 40 hours into Breath of The Wild and never found it good. Same with Hades. I don't believe games "get good 40 hours in". Maybe 5-8 hours at the VERY most.
well...whatever I guess I ended up typing more than I should have. wasted effort again that only serves the purpose of furthering disillusionment
That's the thing - you DID talk about ease of difficulty. I don't understand why you're so blind to that. I appreciate what you've typed. It wasn't for nothing.
>this moron again
whiny, self-centered, meandering homosexual
obligatory
Tunic
lol no. played that one. it's the game that cemented I'll never spend $40 on an indie game again. also it's barely Zelda, more dark souls.
what did you dislike about it?
Can't remember too much. But the game has a heavy focus on combat for combat so brain-dead. I legit cannot remember any actual puzzles for the parts of the game I played (which was mostly the beginning I guess?) the manual gimmick is shit because you simultaneously don't actually need to understand it to progress, but also seems like it takes too much effort thats worth understanding when...you don't actually need to understand it to progress.
I feel like the progression is slow as well. I can't tell if I'm misremembering this or not. But it takes ages to get a new item no?
Level design is shit and boring. Requires no navigational skills, has no interesting traversal, and like I said, I don't remember any puzzles. Too combat focused.
It has some cool shortcuts I guess, but they're also overdone so even that good thing is Linda "whatever".
I just remember reaching a point where a new area unlocked and thinking "I have to do what I've been doing for hours AGAIN? yeah, no I think I'm good".
how has the gay not be banned yet?
I miss the goron roll guy
bruh
>Well. I don't know how to ask this in a satisfying way, but I am looking for Zelda porn.
I really hope you die OP. This is your most embarrassing thread yet. Absolutely pathetic.