what is it about RTWP systems that necessitates the inclusion of trash mobs?
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what is it about RTWP systems that necessitates the inclusion of trash mobs?
Even TB has trash fights
TB can have them. RTwP must have them.
>Trash mobs are just a standard part of rpgs
Bad RPGs, yes.
>most things alive are trash mobs including you.
You never had a real fight in your life.
RTWP was a genre I couldn't enjoy until I was an adult because as a kid I couldn't ignore how flatly terrible the combat was to actually enjoy the good parts of these games, the shitmobs are definitely part of it. Why they exist is a fantastic question
Nothing about it necessitates that. Trash mobs are just a standard part of rpgs. BTW, IRL most things alive are trash mobs including you.
I just want a RTWP game that is mostly trash mob farming like an MMO, but apparently that is not a thing. There are no open world RTWP with MMO styled quest hubs. I think it would be fun if I could get the class autism without the bad stories.
Icewind Dale comes pretty close to that
I might be wrong, but Krater sort of has this. Although the game is buggy and devs abandoned it over a decade ago. It's a post-apoc setting
It's not the issue of RTWP, but rather because DnD-like RPGs are about resource management over the course of the adventure.
Such design requires many different encounters - and most of them is going to be trash mobs, because interesting encounters are harder to make. (Arguably maybe even harder to play - sometime you just want to kill some goblins and not thing too much about it.)
Killing hordes of enemies is fun. Fighting only elites would be boring. Crpgs should have bigger hordes to slaughter anyway
Big brain time: any game that has complaints about trash is actually a complaint about weak skills.
This
trash mobs are good game design when rationed strategically to contrast the tough fights
DAO
yeah, but what rtwp games actually put hordes of trash mobs against you at once instead of rationing them throughout the location
CRPGs are highly strategic games in nature. Hack n Slash ARPGs are what you want, and they're closer to Doom than they are to actual RPGs.
Strategy games feature both horde and elite enemies and factions. And so can crpgs. That's explicitly why I want horde enemies in crpgs. I don't care for diabloclones.
Real time is straight superior to turns in every single way by not being artificially handicapped and so capable of properly simulating combat and battles. The fact that hordes of enemies can actually be implemented in rtwp without it being a slog is their massive advantage.
I never disagreed with this. But Pillars of Eternity 1&2 are the worst RTWP games ever made, and a terrible example for OP to use
*or rather it is a good example to spin his perspective
>But Pillars of Eternity 1&2 are the worst RTWP games ever made
PoE and IWD2EE are the only decent RTWP games, I bet you jerk off over dragon age and wotr like a huge casual homosexual.
I don't consider Bioware garbage games in the first place, you mongrel. Have some dignity, I spit on you. P'toey!
>IWD2EE
Opinion discarded.
Considering it is a free EE (because the morons lost the source code and can't profit from a commercial EE, so it's fanmade and free) it's alright.
BG1 > IWD2 > BG2 > IWD1
It’s a troony mod made by a bunch of morons that threw a ton of inappropriate and random stuff into the game that no one asked for. No different than Beamdog, and it gets aggressively shilled by some of the absolute worst posters on this board.
>It’s a troony mod made by a bunch of morons that threw a ton of inappropriate and random stuff
You mean stuff that makes it actually work like 3e? Like AoOs completely altering the dynamic of the game so its not a moronic blobfest of mashing stat bricks together?
The EE is basically an improved version of what SCS is for BG2. You didn't play it.
>SCS
Opinion discarded.
So you want to play games made for literal 8 year old kids that never played a video game before, got it.
>So
Stopped reading here.
total war is a good example of why real time w/pause isn't that good. so many abilities and situations are tied to animations and physics and end up creating awkward situations where the ai can't adapt and the player lacks control of the actions, and so abilities and units end up too good or too bad. like chasing down an enemy lord with yours and never being able to hit them because the wind up is so long. warhammer is also especially bad with its tiny maps, where real time screws up the scale.
>total war is a good example of why real time w/pause isn't that good.
/v/igrins will just say anything these days to be contrarian. here is your troonycase (you) respone
i accept your implicit concession from your inability to engage with any of the points in my post and your childish namecalling.
Poor argument. That's like saying restaurant food sucks because Denny's is bad. The problems you have an issue with are 100% not a problem at all with a well made game. A well made game will account all of those things. I will concede that developers have not pushed RTWP as much as they could. It fell out of favor when video games went mainstream because you need actual mechanics to play it efficiently. If you look at a game like LoL, it is pretty much what a single player RTWP would play like and it feels very responsive. There is no reason a developer couldn't do that to a party-based RTWP. AI is just lacking in general and that's not the fault of the genre. There have been custom, user-made AI improvements to some games that have completely enhanced the difficulty.
My point is that it can all be done. We just don't have anyone that's put it together yet. BG2 with mods is pretty damn close, but still a ways off.
true, but because they can no longer use abstractions, the games are invariably less capable of simulation and become harder to make in general. basically real time raises the skill level required, which is why you don't see them made well. like, yeah, theoretically someone could open a great restaurant which makes great nutritious meals for a cheap price, quickly, but in actuality, it doesn't happen often. so, i'm more concerned with actual games rather than theoretical games.
Just because the industry is fake and gay doesn't mean it's "too hard" to make a good RTWP game. The industry just plain sucks. They can't shit out good anything. They are wholly focused on appeasing corporate and political interests instead of making good games. Not only that, but basically every single industry in the world got instagibbed by the vaccines and the shutdowns. BTW, it's called skill ceiling.
I will concede that RTWP has a greater skill ceiling both in development and play, but we are not talking rocket science here. The main gripe with RTWP is the inability of normies to properly control their units the way they would like. Mechanical control starts in the options menu with fully customizable keybindings and scripting, yet ends in premade action sequences that reduce micromanagement. A good example is the auto-cover in a game like Max Payne (press a button and Max automatically takes cover behind a surface and his movement is now tied to that surface). Or the auto-deploy that GIs have in Red Alert 2. Furthermore, on-the-fly squad-based control needs a huge buff. I need to be able to pick 2-3 units and easily maneuver them into battle and fight in tactically-sound ways. I also need to be able to control my entire team in a tactically-sound way during a skirmish or full-blown battle. Some of this can be done with in-game prompting and pre-generated or player-created action sequences. Integrating this type of gameplay mechanic into the context of a RTWP-style game just takes a bit of mindfulness, imo.
Another complaint is that difficulty often boils down to either "I totally pwn" or "I'm totally getting pwned". Most of this shouldn't start in combat. It starts outside of combat in the form of scarcity and management of (limited) resources. In combat it starts with enemy movement, yet to my knowledge there are zero RTWP that allow the AI to abuse movement tactics like kiting. Pretty much every RTWP I've ever played boils down to "enemy attacks first unit they see" and that's pretty much it. How they attack the unit may change, but there is no taking advantage of the main selling point of the genre, which is freedom of movement and freedom of action.
These complaints are 100% justified and their solutions are straightforward and simple. We just haven't had anybody thoughtfully working on them, imo. They have all been working on other things or the studios with the resources to make great games have been too busy hiring foreigners and trannies. Maybe I'm wrong about all of it. I would like to know if I am.
I will add that a good way to do difficulty is to give the AI the ability to completely and utterly frick the player over, but harness that through thoughtful integration of RNG. Games like Darkest Dungeon do this point really well. There are enough dice rolls that the game usually doesn't totally frick you, but it will if you aren't very good.
Bg1,2, iwd1,2, nwn 1 and 2 all are rtwp and I don't think in any game I've had an issue with needing an animation to finish before using a different attack. All of those games are also turnbased that play out in real time. (A huge advantage of a computer compared to human dm) so safe to say many rpgs don't suffer with that
Total war does, and has always been quite a janky game. There is a certain level of realism with movement as a lot of units carry inertia to then change directions, but I'm not going to defend them. Warhammer tw is some of the worst, braindead gameplay the series has to offer, and I think realistically killed the series.
>CRPGs are highly strategic games in nature
lol, lmao even
Exactly. This would be like an MMO having no "grey" or "common" pieces of gear. You need shit to appreciate gold.
go back and only return with an actual in game screenshot of your playthrough
oh no watch out everybody the thread police is here! you forgot this, officer.
come back when you have actually played the game and have something of substance to say about it
no one needs your low-quality shit
you will never be a janny
you will never post anything worth reading
Never did, never will
I can only think of one (1) encounter of trash mobs in an RTWP that was interesting or entertaining: fighting a screen full of soldiers in Throne of Bhaal simply to juxtapose how ridiculously overpowered your character had became since fighting a handful of rats at level 1 in Candlekeep. For that reason, I think ToB is best played with a solo Bhaalspawn and no party members (and ToB sucks and is only worth one playthrough imo)
Trash mobs are a way to get the player to spend their finite resources. This works into the resting system where once the player has spent their combat resources they must find a place to rest if they want to recover them. If the player is too liberal with their resources and rests they will soon run out of whatever resource the game uses to limits rests. This means the player must them learn to not just blow all their best spells/abilities/scrolls/potions ect immediately but to instead use them efficiently and learn when they can get away without using them and when it is best to just go ahead and spend those resource.
But PoE doesn't have trash mobs. You get no exp for killing the same mob type more than 3 times. Its wildlife, just walk past it.
That actually makes it worse.
Stop worrying about being a murderhobo and proceed logically.
>It's ackshually worse to have options.
It has nothing to do with RTWP(absolutely moronic system) but with the typical RPG design to have trash mobs as fodder for EXP or to not turn the dungeon crawl into walking simulator.
>Its wildlife, just walk past it
I would actually like for more RPGs to have a wildlife that isn't just throwing it's self-preservation out of the window just to attack the PC. There's ways to make these encounters much interesting, especially at early levels.
This does explain safari hunters, after a while wolves and foxes just don't cut it anymore, you gotta have a lion or three.
It still does have a fair amount of trash filler fights, you just don't get rewarded for them after awhile.
I feel like it's pretty bad during the main story quests. They're afraid of throwing anything too scary at you just in case you haven't been doing side quests probably.
I remember a lot fights against groups of weakling ghosts/undead.
Let's just take a second to think about how completely awful and moronic OP must be to make an asinine complaint and use a pic of the one and only game it doesn't even apply to, and how he probably makes 20 threads a day instead of actually playing games.
>what is it about RTWP systems that necessitates the inclusion of trash mobs?
Expediting trash mob fights is the one and only thing RTWP is good for, there's no point in using RTWP if your game is full of meaningful fights.
Because they can't make fights interesting in other ways like real time or turn-based games can.
>Pillars of Eternity
Those two games are possibly the greatest argument never play RTWP. God damn they suck ass.
That out of the way, trashmobs are nice as long as they aren't everywhere all the time (unless it's a hack'n'slash) a game with only currated encounters means very few encounters and risks becoming skill/build/tactics puzzles. Sometimes it's nice to just smash things without thinking too much
OP continues to desperately reply to himself and bump his shit thread.
>seethig because a thread is getting attention
cry about it
>getting attention
>getting constantly shit on and desperately bumping the thread while no one else does
If you want to get dominated so badly just go to /soc/ and bend over.
You're the only one here b***hing about the thread subject you assmad schizo.
The subject was already answered. It was a stupid and misleading questing to start a flame war. Thread over. You're just going to bump this for months and post stupid bait now. Let it go.
OP here. didn't post once in this thread before now. cope and seethe.
look you did it again
You did not sage.
You realize no one wants to talk to you, right? This isn't discussion. They want you to leave.
It's not about rtwp which is meh or turn based (which I loathe), my problem are trash mobs in general in all kinds of games. For example why the frick would the local wolves or bears or giant frogs or dogs or butterflies go out their way to attack my barely dressed homie with a club? It doesn't make sense. there are games where you're attacked more by local fauna than by orcs and goblins
Trash mobs are a necessity of random encounters. Necessary for the game not to be Just a bunch of perfectly balanced story encounters that appease only to the homosexualiest of the storyplayers.
Trash mobs are the best outcome of a random encounter. Good a trash mob Injusto got exp and survived a potential party wipe encounter without spending any resources.
Of course homosexuals cant understand that, they rather be fricking their frog waifus and laughing at the sexy vampire quips
It's funny you should mention that because bg3 is 100 hours long and doesn't have a single trash encounter despite over half the game being combat. What other games do you play? Where are the trash encounters in Knights of the Chalice 2? I bet you're an expert on rpgs and have lots of insightful things to say.
Exactly, BG3 is a linear storygame perfectly balanced for the homosexualiest of players, exactly what I am describing.
You are THE homosexual I mentioned
You didn't play it. BG3 has anchor point narrative design, meaning it's completely open with 3 anchors in which all player's adventures converge in the name of progressing the narrative. If you were to look up the thousands of bg3 playthroughs on youtube, not a single one would be 100% identical, but if we were to look at bg2 it would not take long to find two playthroughs which are carbon copies of one another. This is how most old games work, the actual old ones made prior to black isle/bioware zealotry, with anchor point design. It's about the journey, not the PowerPoint slideshow at the end.
You misunderstand me, Im not here to defend the old Baldurs Gate games, Im not a fan of them either.
Not to specifically criticize BG3 too.
Im just saying that trash mobs are a necessity of games with real immersive freedom.
BG3 is used as a point because It is a linear storygame that I didnt enjoy specifically because of that.
It is a linear game, 100%, It doesnt matter If there are paths, the outcome are ALL but a handful that are all reached through a handful of paths. And they are all perfectly balanced for the story beats you are following. Not really a free game, but a bunch of convoluted corridors that you follow.
>It is a linear game, 100%, It doesnt matter If there are paths, the outcome are ALL but a handful that are all reached through a handful of paths
Minecraft only has 1 way to reach the credits. Is minecraft a linear game? Let's take a moment to really, really appreciate how absolutely moronic you are and how flawed your argument is, and why I'm not going to reply to someone as boring as you again.
It has one ending, but is also mostly composed of things to do that dont lead to the ending. Besides, It doesnt have a story, nor cutscenes, neither a map that is simply a bunch of corridors.
This is not a real comparison, you are just being disingenuous.
>And they are all perfectly balanced for the story beats you are following
That's not how bg3 works.
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You can just do whatever as long as the boss dies at the end of the act.
>You can just do whatever
Except completely ignore Shadowheart
Or kill the Emperor when he's revealed
Or go down the road in act 2 and attack the Absolute's war camp in a badass huge battle
Or all the other false choices the game prevents but then railroads you if you take the 'wrong' choice
>Or kill the Emperor when he's revealed
Logically you cannot kill the Emperor because he's directing the spell which is protecting you from the influence on the elder brain. There are actually several points where you *can* kill the Emperor or simply go against his wishes, but obviously this results in an immediate game over. Because this is a logically designed narrative anchor point to move the story along, which is present in all games, but more obvious because 99% of the game is *not* this whereas 100% of your favorite game is that.
>you have a bomb collar around your neck and you have to do what the bad guy says or you get a game over, this is stunning and brave game design
Yeah it is and I'd prefer this over stuff like new vegas where it's pass a speech check to advance the main storyline or walk 10 feet outside and talk to the same guy to advance the main storyline. BG3 has actual nonlinearity, and I will reiterate here: your favorite games don't. Branching quest lines are not a meaningful divergence from linear quest design. A branch is still a series of straight lines, and that's boring.
>deflects to ‘other games are bad’ instead of defending the game on its own merits
Typical and unsurprising.
If something has to happen for part of the plot’s continuity, just make it happen, don’t offer the player a false choice of “do you want to do this? Y/N” and then pull “But thou must!” if the player make the “wrong” choice. That’s incredibly lazy and stupid design, insulting to the player, and incredibly gamey and immersion-breaking. The least you could do is offer a mechanically consistent explanation for why something has to happen: if it’s an impossible battle I can’t win, let me fight it and lose, don’t just say “lol it’s impossible I’m teleporting you away now”. If Shadowheart has to join my party because of the MacGuffin, just make her join my party, don’t let me say no and then have her fricking teleport to me in a cutscene because the plot requires it. Even Sven said that was moronic but they were basically backed into a corner and had to do it.
For an example of Larian being less clumsy and ham fisted about things, in DOS2 there’s several battles in Act 1 against Dallis that you aren’t intended to win, but if you do so anyway (most likely through cheese with deathfog barrels or telekinesis), the game acknowledges this and rewards you with two cool unique items, even as the games plot continues along the path that it must. Far more satisfying approach.
>deflects to ‘other games are bad’
Comparitive critique is the basis of all objective criticism. The proper retort would be to provide an example of actual non-linearity in a game, but you can't do that.
>DOS2 there’s several battles in Act 1 against Dallis that you aren’t intended to win, but if you do so anyway (most likely through cheese with deathfog barrels or telekinesis), the game acknowledges this and rewards you with two cool unique items
BG3 also does this. Several times and pretty much immediately, in fact, the first example being the fire sword on the nautilus within the first 5 minutes of the game.
>more dancing around the substance of an argument and deflection
Yawn. Your gimmick was boring a year ago and it’s positively worn out at this point. No one likes talking to you.
I directly, utterly, and completely addressed all of your arguments. You are arguing from a disingenuous stance and do not want to accept the truth, merely grift for your delusional ideology.
>it was real in my mind
Okay, Chaim.
Screaming about the israelites definitely makes you seem less delusional.
>BG3 also does this. Several times and pretty much immediately
Which is why your example isn't even the same as his. Goddamn why are all BG3 fans so moronic?
Honestly it is fine that way. Sounds like you should either get into tabletop roleplaying if you desire that ultimate freedom and reactivity or whatever. Or maybe play some sandbox games.
Sometimes it is fun to play a story game, sometimes you want something else.
You are just being a contrarian moron though but still
Oh look, you can play as a cat, now the pre determined balanced path can be followed as a cat, great, what a prime experience of freedom.
How did you solve the burning building quest? Did you also locate a key?
>It's about the journey, not the PowerPoint slideshow at the end
>Larian apologist pretending like it wasn't completely embarrassing that they cut the epilogue slides along with half of act 3 to rush the unfinished game to beat muh Starfield to launch
lol, lmao
Nothing. You're stupid.
Because fights are faster, you can include more minor fights. Trash mobs are fun, they give you something to quickly mess around with. Polymorph them or do whatever goofy abilities you wouldn't normally use.
If an RPG isn't padded with tedious shit poorgays will complain that they didn't get their money's worth.
The golem is short circuiting.
See:
>playing AD&D for the combat
Oh nonoononono hahahahahahaha
What else is there? AD&D crpgs had no other gameplay besides clunky combat.
RTWP is inherently better than turn based, your complaint is a design choice that has nothing to do with either of them.
>real rtwp has never been tried
lol, dis guy
Masquerada, Dark Envoy, DioField Chronicle, FF12, Blade Prince Academia, DAO and DA2 have better combat gameplay than any turn-based cRPG you can show here.
Try proving me wrong with a webm that's not exploding barrels.
>nobody actually answers the question
the reason RTWP has more trash fights is RTWP combat systems are generally more complex and require a bit more time to "get".
Whereas turnbased is generally simpler purely do to the lack of time pressure and micro managing.
That's my theory anyway
No one cares railgun troony
>RTWP combat systems are generally more complex
Its true. Whether battles are more engaging for brainlets on a second to second basis is not the same thing as complexity.
>buff
>click in the baddies and they die
Might as well play Diablo, dumb troony.
Reductionism and context-free insults. Typical brainlet behavior of people who criticize rtwp.
You'd need to be a brainlet to play and enjoy RTwP.
Yes, that's why homosexuals who play Kingmaker and WToR always say:
>RTwP for easy fights and Turn-Based for the bosses.
Turn-Based is baby mode, only chads are able to deal with multiple things happening at once without pissing and sharting their pants.
Because the real world is populated with living things of varying types, some of which may be dangerous, and you need that kind of content to make the world believable.
Turn based games have just as many trash mobs, it just takes longer to kill them because turn based is so slow.
In turn based, because every encounter requires you to use your brain and make decisions, they need to make each encounter meaningful or people would get tired.
With RTWP they don't have this.
"There are over 600 hundred unique spells in BG3
But what if you wanted to use just one ability"
No jumping, no using spells or abilites, just the same throwing over and over.
This is it guys, the big brained pinacle of gaming know as turn-based.
Just throw, over and over = win.
micro is ez and not rpg
>micro
>in a system with built in pause
lol
But yes, there's nothing rpg about micro.
yup, it's out of genre mechanics
I will never understand where this hate for rtwp came from in the last few years.
Did some YouTuber say he disliked it?
zoomers have teamed up with gen x to shit on your millennial biotard garbage
Gen x loved infinity engine games.
no
Big time.
Rtwp has distinct strengths and weaknesses the same as turn based or turn based tactical.
I think this is a bit disingenuous, they seem to like isometric turn based stuff.
Rare sensible post
nope, we called it rts based garbage.
>we
my first modem was 2400 baud
ok?
You’re talking to a jan-u-wine boomer, anon. Show some respect to your elders.
Lmao.
>isometric turn-based
So they can play it with a controller.
True.
They are old, though.
It's morons of all ages, eg this one too stupid to see the difference between it and RTS
You’re ignorant and/or too young if you don’t understand the influence of the popular RTS genre on the RTWP style of RPGs.
I didn't say there was no influence, you moron. Of course there was influence.
But the differences matter. The resulting gameplay is very different from an RTS and anyone dismissing the games based on the influence is too braindead to recognize these important differences.
>t. both ignorant, and young
Post your age. I'm curious to know whether I'm older than you or just smarter.
>Not true.
Yes, true, for two big and really fricking obvious reasons that only morons don't see:
1. The point of the pause feature is to enable arbitrarily accurate decision making on the behalf of the units on the field. In other words, the pause is there to enable a single player to roleplay up to 6 different party members, without ditching the realistic model of time in favor of the turn-oriented model of time used in most other RPGs. RTS games do NOT have this feature. Quick decision-making is key feature of RTS and a core part of the gameplay (even before considering APM-tier optimization).
2. RTS emphasizes strategy over tactics. The tactical combat in an RTS is primarily a fun way to play out a strategy to its final conclusion. It's about all the decisions you make ahead of time-- production of buildings and troops, about deciding which enemy assets to attack and how many troops to send on a mission. An RTS is mainly about strategy, but has a tactical component. In an RPG this is reversed. There are still strategic elements to an RPG, but RPGs emphasize situational decision-making in combat over big-picture strategy.
>The resulting gameplay is very different from an RTS
Not true. So you quest in a RPG and you build in a RTS, yet everything else is exactly the same. The HUD in Infinity Engine games is practically the same as the HUD in all of the RTS games of the same era. IE games even allow you to create keybinds for groups of units, just like you would use in a RTS. Both games are all about commanding units in literally the same way in the same format. They are basically the same.
The infinity engine was developed for an unreleased RTS and repurposed for Baldurs gate
Anon. RTS and RTWP are basically the same thing.
>dude you don't build buildings or collect resources and you can pause
wow, you are surely a genius to be able to see this
It was literally always janky as shit. The most intricate RTwP game out there is an utter fricking mess to play compared to JA2.
Zoomers grew up with a controller in their hands. They don't even know how to use a keyboard and mouse. Asking them to control several units from an isometric perspective is like asking a woman to go fix the plumbing. It will most certainly lead to disaster.
I can do a backflip