Which one of these two did a better job for introducing new pokemon
>left: you can't meet old pokemon until the first badge
>right: you can't meet old pokemon until you beat the league
Which one of these two did a better job for introducing new pokemon
emerald doesn't have new pokemon
They were both trying to do different things. Hoenn is in the same "nation" as Kanto/Johto, so the pokemon are only slightly different. Unova is on the other side of the world, so it wouldn't make sense to find PokeJapan species there.
left has the safari, marill and slugma in the wild, so you can met a handful of old pokemon
You didn't even play the game
can you read?
It's even true. You can meet Marill and Abra before the first badge in Emerald.
You didn't play the game
i feel like marill should've at least been azurill
i will also never fricking forgive emerald for this
emerald cause the designs are 10000x better..... i dont really care that unova made a replacement for zubat and geodude with swoobat and roggenrola, they're ugly and forgettable to me. where as something like alakazam gardevoir is a iconic
Roggenrola is better than Geodude, my dude.
nope
Frick off
Hoenn mons are more fun to use as well. I never want to play BW because the mon selection in the beginning stretch of the game is just abysmal. In RSE you can get so many great, fun Hoenn mons before the first gym badge.
this
this. hated how so many pokemon were simply Kanto copies. robbed the point of exiling all those Black personmons for the entire game
Emerald added Maril before the first gym though
Curious what you mean on this, as you would need surf to get him before the first gym which you don't have and can't use, the only places you can get wild grass encounter marill is 117 and 120 which are beyond the first gym...
Not gen 5 that's for sure
people hated BW because it was too focused on new pokemon so i’m gonna say that one
I like the RSE approach, good balance of new and old Pokemon while still having a unique identity as a region.
The problem with BW approach is just that personally I don't like many of the new Pokemon and the distribution sucks.
>I like the RSE approach, good balance of new and old Pokemon while still having a unique identity as a region.
This. RSE don't receive nearly enough credit for how optimal their approach to the regional dex was. They introduced 135 awesome new designs while also featuring old designs who now function completely differently due to abilities (Gyarados, Azumarill, Weezing, etc.) Like you said, Unova failed to replicate the soft reboot formula to Hoenn's effect because the new designs are boring and the distribution is rather shitty. Hoenn doesn't suffer such design flaws.
I actually think BW did a pretty piss poor job of introducing new Pokemon.
>so fricking linear and railroaded you only have access to 4 other pokemon before the first gym
>so fricking linear and railroaded a bunch of pokemon aren’t even catchable until the very end of the game and have obnoxiously high evolution levels as a result
>zero unique mechanics like fishing or rock smash or berry trees or safari zone or feebas tiles so basically everything is just found by generic random encounters plopped in each area
>legendaries are basically just found in single rooms of preexisting areas rather than having dedicated dungeons or puzzles
gen 5 put zero effort into actually making finding the pokemon interesting, they just shat out 150 (mostly poorly designed) pokemon and just slapped them into the game in a linear fashion in the most lazy way possible.
Not having rock smash is a good thing. But I can agree with the distrib not being particularly interesting. BW2 is the better gen5 game hands down.
>>zero unique mechanics
phenomena, homie
Seasons too
they both fricking suck though date or clock-based mechanics are not fun and easy to manipulate anyway
So you didn't play the game.
No, I did. But I think you know this sagegay, which is why you b***h replied like the coward you are.
>NOOOOOOO FEED MY OBVIOUS SHITPOSTING ABOUT ISSUES I INVENTED IN MY HEAD TO CRY ABOUT SUPPOSED BOOGEYMEN
lmao what a moron. locking mons to shitty gimmicks with extreme;y small spawn rates is the OPPOSITE of properly introducing mons. Then it's obvious you didn't play when you ignore that Gen 5 had among the most dungeoned legendaries of all.
I played the game, dude's right. There isn't much room for deviation and a lot of mons that don't really have a right to be gatekept so late like Vullaby have really insane evolution requirements. It's crazy since in later generations you can find those same pokemon at a much more reasonable levels 15-25 range but they still evolve only when you're beating the E4. Deino I get but there's no reason why I have to wait until Rufflet is at the same level as most psuedo legendaries to evolve.
>There isn't much room for deviation
unova has the most consistently good pokemon of any region up to that point. you can use just about anything.
>unova has the most consistently good pokemon of any region up to that point. you can use just about anything.
Yeah, and you usually have no control over when you can meet those pokemon. The paths you take in your journey in pokemon black will look identical to your friend's and other people's journeys. A lot of people usually have their team's finalized by the 3rd or 4th gym badge at the latest, so lategame pokemon need to hit the ground running to justify being on the team, and shit like Pawniard won't make it to the E4. You CAN use anything since this is pokemon after all, but people will gravitate towards the ones that showed up to the party on time, and its an uphill battle training late pokemon in Unova due to their absurd evolution levels.
>If I have to wait until level 47 to evolve something, it better be fricking good, not some mono ice shitmon with a garbage movepool.
My thoughts exactly. The BW sequels did something interesting by having Mandibuzz and a few other pokemon available to capture much earlier through a static encounter in the overworld. As someone who did use the free Mandibuzz, her power level for the run didn't justify her prevo's high level requirement.
See, the thing about high evolution levels in Pokemon is that they condition the player to think that the higher the evolution level, the better the pokemon gets. Early bugs have low evolution levels and faster powerboosts, but fall off as the game goes on. On the opposite side you have weak pokemon that have high evolution levels, but once they reach them they get really strong. Making every evolution take longer just means you'll have pokemon that are weak and stay weak even after evolving. Nobody sane tries to grind to level 100 anyway.
>A lot of people usually have their team's finalized by the 3rd or 4th gym badge at the latest
okay i know "you're playing the game wrong" is a massive cope but you are genuinely nuts if you do this
I don't do it as often as I used to, but I clearly remember my BW2 team being Samurott, the free Mandibuzz, Gothitelle, Magmortar, and notGolem and notMachamp
BW2 is more understandable with its larger roster
I see no reason to change a team halfway through the game. I might as well toughen it out 'til the end.
you have holes in your brain
You're only saying this out of a QoL "saving time" perspective in relation to other games and not in a vacuum. I think this would by my unpopular opinion: Evo levels should be higher across the board. Not only do you use these guys in the postage as well moreso now (BW had you only become the champ in the postgame with harder teams), and even just logically the mon will spend so much more of it's time split between its stages and makes evolution more rewarding considering level 100 is the cap.
dude i can never use johto pokemon in other games since they all evolve at like level 25
My issue with the high evolution levels isn't even just that they're high, but that they make absolutely no sense in terms of progression. If I have to wait until level 47 to evolve something, it better be fricking good, not some mono ice shitmon with a garbage movepool.
>>so fricking linear and railroaded you only have access to 4 other pokemon before the first gym
>>so fricking linear and railroaded a bunch of pokemon aren’t even catchable until the very end of the game and have obnoxiously high evolution levels as a result
oh look, another mouthbreathing idiot that doesn't understand the basic concept of cause and effect
The cause and effect of me putting my boot up your arse doesn't make it any less unpleasant, does it? Pawniard being dead weight until AFTER the E4 is ridiculous
>Pawniard being dead weight until AFTER the E4 is ridiculous
Ah yes, every pokemon should instantly be handed to you by city three and be maximally viable, while having no differences in what function that serve you.
>Ah yes, every pokemon should instantly be handed to you by city three
no
instead they should make the game actually explorable so you can look different ways to find pokemon instead of being railroaded linear dogshit that locks things to the end of the game because the developers were lazy.
your autism is coalescing again
Good thing Unova lacks the issue you are describing.
New pokemon that show up along the beaten path by badge 6 or 7 should be able to catch up with the rest of the team or at the very least provide decent exp when beating them. Pokemon like Bagon and Larvitar are exceptions that you have to deliberately go out of your way and backtrack to find, capture, and raise with the reward being an absolute asskicker in time for the E4, while you find Pawniard like its nothing in BW. Those other pokemon are deliberate burdens that take long to even find in the first place, but unlike Pawniard they're atleast somewhat competent if they fail to achieve their final forms before the end credits.
on top of further casualization by nerfing hms. cannot understand how anyone can like base BW. they're tied with DP as the worst games in the franchise
>left is a good game set in a good region
>right is a bad game set in the worst region
Golly gee, I sure do wonder which one did it best.
the right one, of course
BW
Looking back, I think that RSE did the whole brand new cast thing better than BW. The longer you hold off on bringing back familiar faces, the more new pokemon you need to distribute across the game. I get the feeling that BW tried to compensate with the extra workload by having a handful of pokemon analogous with the older ones, some more blatant than others (roggenrola vs geodude for example). If I had it my way, I'd bring back familiar pokemon by the 2nd or 3rd gym badge, make certain new pokemon show up earlier and bump down wild and evolution levels for some other pokemon like Pawniard and Rufflet because its fricking ridiculous that they evolve at levels 52 and 54 respectively instead of something like level 30
RSE solely because it introduced a bunch of interesting Pokemon before the first gym instead of gimping you for unnecessary type matchup tutorial reasons. BW has a better endgame distribution than RSE, but that hardly matters because most players have a full team by the point the awful water encounter tables start anyway. I give BW a similar pass for the high evolution level endgame Pokemon. Both are top 2 though, Gen 1 and 2 have scuffed pools but are at least okay and honestly amazing for how fricked development was, DP is fricking miserable and easily the worst, and the games after BW arguably have too many Pokemon with XY being the worst offender but I get it they have too many Pokemon to not include at this point.
>you’re nuts if you don’t train 6 pokemon evenly the entire game
>you’re nuts if you don’t spend most of the game with less than 6 pokemon and don’t wait until the 8th gym to catch the last members of your team
Which is it, sagegay? It can’t be both.
Not your bogeyman, but 4th is only slightly early, 5th or 6th is fairly normal. I guess it depends on what the 3rd gym is, in XY that's really normal given how fricking long it that stretch is and how many Pokemon there are. It's arguably a negative in that game since you can get attached to your team emotionally with Amie and everything, then you see a few new Pokemon later. There is no EXP Share for emotional investment.
>left: you can't meet old pokemon until the first badge
False. Route 104 has wild Marills in the grass in Emerald.
I'm an old kantogay and I've come to hate how RSE handles Kanto pokemon. Woo you get a chance to use Geodude again, how exciting. Yet another water route filled with Tentacools. Oh boy Psyduck! Wanna use ugly ass machop again?
It does make the Hoenn pokemon seem more appealing in that regard so I guess that kinda works.
unova recycling archetypes from kanto pokemon was a good thing because it gave future games more options for what they want to use to fill that role.
then XY came along and ruined everything by bloating the frick out of its dex.
>POKEMON IN POKEMON GAME BAD
Having over 400 of them running around the region is overkill imo, and I prefer the smaller dexes
>it’s overkill for there to be a different pokemon instead of seeing bold ore for the 9th time because..uh…it just is
> Not what he said
Yes it is. “Bloated dex” is and always will be a completely moronic meme complaint when it comes to XY.
>s-save them for when you’re done 99% the game’s content
For what fricking purpose? By that point in the game random encounters aren’t even relevant anymore.
> so there's actual shit to explore and catch,
Why not fill the CAMPAIGN with actual shit to explore and catch instead? Where’s the advantage to shoving it to postgame?
Why do I need Geodude and Not-Geodude to be simultaneously available? So Hikers can have an additional shitmon I can 2HKO because both of the twats have Sturdy, making them more of a pain in the ass to mash A through?
> Why do I need Geodude and Not-Geodude to be simultaneously available?
So the game is less repetitive and random encounters actually have a reason to exist in later areas of the game.
It’s like you don’t even have an argument and can’t explain how “muh bloated dex” is a bad thing.
> I believe its overkill because previous generations had a tighter identity
“identity” is a meme buzzword that doesn’t mean anything if the gameplay is shit. Sinnoh isn’t better for having its “identity” be spamming graveler and golbat lines in every fricking cave in the game.
> then you'd just have a bunch of filler taking up the same spot as the next guy
Yes, meaning random encounters in each individual route will be less repetitive. You’re still not explaining the part where this is bad.
> What is the point of having Pidgey, Spearow, Hoothoot, Taillow, Starly, Pidove, Fletchling, and Pikipek all in the same game?
What is the point of seeing Pidgey 100 times throughout the game?
frick it, i'll humor you.
having both roggenrola and geodude in the same dex is not going to make your gameplay experience any more varied because they're basically the exact same pokemon. however, having two different options for a generic cave rock and only choosing one of them makes each regional dex feel more varied because it's not the exact same lines every time. it's still serving the same role, but it's a new design so it still feels fresh.
(and for the record i do think some unova lines are too similar to their kanto counterparts. zubat/woobat and poliwag/tympole strike a better balance of serving a similar role in the environment but being different in battle.)
XY doesn't take advantage of this though. the game could choose between timburr and machop, but instead it uses both. same with geodude and roggenrola. and i have to ask why, since they're basically the same pokemon.
this shit's all over the kalos dex. why do you need zigzagoon, bidoof, sentret, and patrat when you have bunnelby? why do you need butterfree when you have vivillon? why do you need pikachu, plusle/minun, pachirisu, emolga, and dedenne all in the same game? these are all more or less the same pokoemon. it doesn't add variety to the gameplay.
>going to make your gameplay experience any more varied
Seeing a Geodude in one area then a Roggenrola in the next area is objectively more varied than seeing Geodude in both areas.
>each regional dex feel more varied
How in the frick is seeing Geodude 5 dozen times more varied than seeing Geodude, Roggenrola, and Aron in different areas?
>but it's a new design so it still feels fresh.
It's not "fresh" IN THE GAME when I'm in the 5th cave and it's still just fricking Boldore spam instead of something new.
>why do you need zigzagoon, bidoof, sentret, and patrat when you have bunnelby?
Because it makes random encounters less repetitive and it gives routes more replayability.
>why do you need butterfree when you have vivillon?
Because it makes random encounters less repetitive and it gives routes more replayability.
>why do you need pikachu, plusle/minun, pachirisu, emolga, and dedenne all in the same game?
Because it makes random encounters less repetitive and it gives routes more replayability.
You're still not explaining where the bad part is. You're just sperging out because you're looking for an excuse to shit on XY and blame it for BW's problems.
>objectively
stopped reading there
>in the next area
This isn't the case though. XY mixes it all together.
>in different areas
This isn't the case though. XY mixes it all together.
>instead of something new
so every game should have both? That makes every game the same. That's called less variety, not more.
>makes random encounters less repetitive
running through regions that all have everything is MORE repetitive and guts all of them of any differences
>gives routes more replayability
How is alternating between functionally identical pokemon all mixed together adding to replayability?
>This isn't the case though. XY mixes it all together.
In Glittering Cave I find Onix and Rhyhorn. In Reflection Cave I find Roggenrola and Carbink. In Terminus Cave I find Graveler and Lairon. So no, it doesn't mix it all together, dumbass. XY gives a nice variety of Pokemon unique to each area.
>so every game should have both?
Every game shouldn't excessively repeat its encounters for no reason.
>That makes every game the same
XY and SM are noticeably different games and both have pokedexes that don't pointlessly repeat shit. So no. What WOULD be repetitive and less variety is seeing Roggenrola fricking constantly.
>running through regions that all have everything is MORE repetitive
Nope, because I'm constantly seeing new things.
>How is alternating between functionally identical pokemon all mixed together adding to replayability?
Because it gives me more different Pokemon to collect and try out. They're not functionally identical.
I accept your concession though, sagegay, since you decided to respond like a coward again, which you always do whenever you're losing an argument. It's funny to see that 99% of the posts that shit on XY for no reason all come from you.
>dodges the question
>shifts to a no u question
>shifts to another game that doesn't do what XY is currently being accused of doing, rendering the point moot
>ignoring the point being all regions would be the same if they have everything, thus dodging the point
>spamming slightly different mons together in every regions is somehow """variety""" that definitely doesn't encourage you playing the same way in every game; but making every game actually different is somehow bad and lowers variety
Give me one more reason to feed your autism. Sorry you can't access criticism of your shit game.
You've posted a dozen times and you still haven't actually explained how "pokedex bloat" is a bad thing. You don't have an argument, you don't have consistent standards, you just mindlessly wiener slurp whatever gen 5 does and mindlessly shit on whatever gen 6 does.
You ignoring the reason doesn't make it disappear. Every region spamming everything would be good according to you, even though that would decrease variety between games and make you play them all the same. Games actually being different and having different options would make them varied. You've been dodging this simple assertion for a while and pretending that arguments against your game don't exist.
>Every region spamming everything would be good according to you
I never argued every region should spam everything. This a strawman you invented because you have no argument against the point I actually made. As I said, XY and SM have noticeably different dexes and neither moronicly spam the same Pokemon everywhere like the DS games.
>I never argued every region should spam everything
You argued that functionally similar pokemon should all be available like in XY. That's objectively stupid. SM doesn't do what people are currently criticizing XY for nearly as much spot your example is completely irrelevant.
>all
I never said this. Engage with what I actually said instead of inventing these disingenuous strawmen, sagegay. It's getting old.
>they actually share quite a lot of mons.
Every single game in the series share a lot of Pokemon. What's your point?
my point is that you are wrong and dumb and stupid and also wrong. and dumb.
and stupid.
>I never said this
Your argument directly means that you agree with that statement.
>Every single game in the series share a lot of Pokemon
How about focus on the difference between games presented by the post you responded to?
It works percentage wise also, moron.
>Your argument directly means that you agree with that statement
Nope. Having a large regional dex doesn't mean the game needs to have ALL the Pokemon. This never my argument. Stop strawmanning.
>It works percentage wise also
Ok? And?
>Having a large regional dex
Stopped right there. Your argument isn't this. It's that having overlapping mons of similar functionality somehow isn't repetitive but somehow increases variety. The logical extension of this is that even more would give you even more variety, which I disagree with.
>Ok? And?
So your equivalence of XY and SM doesn't apply because the thing people are criticizing XY for ITT doesn't apply to SM because it isn't guilty of it nearly as much.
> It's that having overlapping mons of similar functionality somehow isn't repetitive but somehow increases variety
Both are true. They’re different Pokemon. They do different things.
> The logical extension of this is that even more would give you even more variety
The game doesn’t need to have ALL the Pokemon to have enough variety. I never said this. Stop strawmanning.
>So your equivalence of XY and SM doesn't apply
It does though. Neither games excessively repeat Pokemon like the DS games.
>XY and SM have noticeably different dexes
that's because SM focuses on its new additions and XY doesn't. they actually share quite a lot of mons.
And I just said what I meant by identity in the Johto example, being a more casual and slower experience with weaker pokemon than usual to use. In your Sinnoh example, cramming in every goddamn pokemon into that game means that you get Boldore and Graveler spammed in every cave and people would hardly tell the difference since both of them die in one shot to Surf. Having a bunch of pokemon for the sake of it is extra work for no reason, and working with a limited dex makes for better game design choices with random encounters in pokemon games. You cannot b***h about pidgey spam and then in the same breath say that everynormalbird spam is better. You don't get "variety" by slapping everything at the wall, you just get a mess.
Actually, on that topic of pidgey and graveler spam, why do you feel like other options should be given to you on a silver platter every step of the way? Would it not be more rewarding and varied if you had to put in some effort to find other pokemon? If you have a problem with merely seeing the same pokemon, don't you have the option as a player to use REPELS?
>being a more casual and slower experience with weaker pokemon than usual to use
Why are we pretending this is mutually exclusive with having the variety not be dogshit?
> means that you get Boldore and Graveler spammed in every cave and people would hardly tell the difference since both of them die in one shot to Surf
How is this worse than only spamming Graveler? If Boldore is in one cave and Graveler is in another it gives me a REASON to actually give a frick about random encounters and find more Pokemon to collect instead of just instantly resorting to using repels. The Pokemon also aren’t the same if I actually use them. Gigalith has Sand Stream, Golem doesn’t. Golem has multiple quad weaknesses, Gigalith doesn’t.
>Having a bunch of pokemon for the sake of it is extra work for no reason
Adding more Pokemon to an encounter table requires virtually no work if the Pokemon already exists in the game and it’s not for no reason because it makes random encounters less pointless.
> and working with a limited dex makes for better game design choices
You haven’t actually explained what these “better game design choices” are. So far your entire argument is “it’s better because the games I like do it”
>You cannot b***h about pidgey spam and then in the same breath say that everynormalbird spam is better.
I actually can. It’s a monster collection game. Having different monsters to collect is more engaging than seeing the same monster five dozen times.
>How is this worse than only spamming Graveler?
it isn't. it's not better either. it makes absolutely no difference.
It is better though. It gives me more content in the routes. You admitted this yourself when you claimed putting more Pokemon in the postgame somehow makes it better. Stop backpedaling.
>It gives me more content in the routes.
if you add content that's the same as existing content, you haven't added anything
This is the last time I'm repeating it, Johto has a weaker roster strengthwise of pokemon overall, and the game was made using those weaker pokemon in mind. Even if Boldore and Graveler are in different caves, they share the same function, the same evolution requirements, the same stat build, the same niche. They share too many similarities to not be redundant, and those pokemon were designed in mind to be encountered at similar points in your journey. There's simply no point in having a bunch of pokemon sharing that many similarities when you can and should be more selective and considerate with the roster, especially when bigger rosters means more work implementing them. It is not just "hurr just change encounter tables" when you have to add textures, animate, rig, and program the pokemon into the new games. When you have less pokemon to worry about putting in routes, you can spread them out and condition the player to anticipate what pokemon will be where and reward them when they go the extra mile to find something else to catch. For example, a rare encounter in the early game could be more common in the midgame, so more thorough players can find a certain monster early while faster ones that miss them can find them later. It was already a chore catching all 150, and you're saying that collecting all 1000 is somehow better?
I believe its overkill because previous generations had a tighter identity with smaller casts, and they were easier to balance around and prepare for. I'll bring up an example in Johto; it's an honestly laid back region with mostly weak or middling pokemon like Girafarig that would get shit on everywhere else but do decently in Johto. If HeartGold and SoulSilver added every pokemon to exist at the time in its regional dex, then you'd just have a bunch of filler taking up the same spot as the next guy and its all just a mishmash of nonsense. Its also why I couldn't get into Radical Red, there's hardly any rhyme or reason into what you encounter. Nobody talks about it, but there is such a thing as too much freedom and too many choices. I have to ask you this: What is the point of having Pidgey, Spearow, Hoothoot, Taillow, Starly, Pidove, Fletchling, and Pikipek all in the same game?
Not what he said, moron. You can have all those Pokemon in the game, but save them for postgame so there's actual shit to explore and catch, that way the main campaign's roster is coherent and not full of Pokemon who serve identical, redundant roles.
hi yawngay
They're both literally excellent
it's like he didn't even read my post. he just read the words "bloating" and "dex" and had a spergasm.
>you can't meet old pokemon until the first badge
Marill and Abra beg to differ
BW and I wish every Pokemon game was like that. There's just something fun about playing though a new game and only seeing and using new Pokemon. That said, after you beat the league/main game, all other Pokemon should be catchable/transferable.
I think they're going for different things, but gun to my head I would say Emerald. I think Hoenn did a really great job of feeling like a unique ecosystem with its own distinct identity. with so many new mons compared to Johto, it felt kind of like a soft reboot, but you still had familiar mons filling their important niches to remind you that you were still in the Pokemon universe.
Unova I think went too far because by getting rid of old Pokemon altogether, they ended up having to make a bunch of Pokemon that filled the same niches as old Pokemon, often very closely similar, and so a good portion of the dex just feels like retreads and makes me ask why the older Pokemon weren't just used in their place. Hoenn already proved you didn't need to retread the same ground to give a region it's own identity, in fact it was the oddball Pokemon in the Hoenn dex that really gave it it's character. and because of the recyed concepts, the lack of old mons just felt like a weird omission instead of the intended effect. when I saw a Roggenrola, I wasn't going "oh wow a new Pokemon!" I was going "why didn't they just use Geodude here?". I don't want 90% of the dex to be returning mons like in Johto, but having just a handful that fill key positions grounds you in the universe and allows you to go really out there with the new designs and carve out new niches, and I think that has more potential for novelty than making a brand new dex from scratch that has to cover all the same niches that previous dexes did.
base SM alone shares 70 lines with XY, and that's not counting any regional forms. the game has 93 old lines total, again not counting regional forms.
compare that to platinum, which shares 20 lines with the hoenn pokedex, not counting the ones that received new evolutions, out of 30 old lines total.
including new evos bumps it up to 27 lines out of 55.
large dexes means less inter-game variety.
>games with more pokemon share more pokemon
Ok? And?
stop being stupid on purpose
XY.
You can catch Marill on route 104 and Abra on route 116