For me, it’s the fact that everyone cries about the scorch shot being a shitter weapon that you will go to hell for using, but soldier and demo’s main form of damage is the exact same as the SS except it does all of its damage instantly and takes just as much skill to use
Demoman and Soldier are slow, (unless they sacrifice health for bursts of mobility) have limited ammo and need to reload their weapons, are subject to damage ramp up and falloff and all in all are both classes that have weaknesses of downtime, limited mobility and range that make taking random potshots with their weapons a waste of time and resources when they could be fighting up close and putting both themselves and the enemy at much higher risk of dying.
Pyro is fast with a free speed boost in his melee slot, the Scorch Shot auto reloads and has no damage falloff plus ignites and mini crits on ignited enemies for good measure, and his primary weapon doesn't require reloading. He can pick his fights and has essentially zero downtime or range limit, giving him little incentive not to be a nuisance firing off potshots whenever his secondary weapon is loaded.
Pyrogays are delusional.
You raised the comparison, moron.
Let's also not mention that the Scorch Shot projectile is faster than a Direct Hit rocket and has twice the blast radius.
>He can pick his fights and has essentially zero downtime or range limit, giving him little incentive not to be a nuisance firing off potshots whenever his secondary weapon is loaded.
He can't pick his fights though, all he can realistically do with the SS is harass or buy time for teammates to get a kill. SS is only useful to actually get kills if you shoot someone with low health (something that will realistically happen solo as pyro if you have already lowered it at close range with a flamethrower and they are trying to escape)
Also another pyro with a shotgun just counters you if you use the SS.
If you want to de-incentivize using the weapon then tell those homosexuals at valve to unnerf afterburn duration for flamethrowers, unnerf flamethrower damage, unnerf airblast, and unnerf combos and combo weapons.
At the moment the best way to apply afterburn consistently is flares because of the nerfs and the most consistent flare gun is the scorch shot. Blame those candy asses at valve for surgically removing almost every other viable tool pyro used to have
Only classes that can outmaneuver him without sacrificing health are Scout, Demoknight with heads, sometimes Medic and another Pyro. And in the cases of Medic and Demoknight they should only be running away. It's not just the speed, he can apply pressure to any pursuers with flares and defend himself with the airblast.
The best thing Pyro has is the ability to pick his fights. People like to claim he's an ambush class, but if he actually had the mobility of a class like Demoman he would be back to doing nothing but watching sentry nests and spychecking. >all he can realistically do with the SS is harass or buy time for teammates to get a kill.
The harassing is what people find frustrating about the SS. Shoot it at a corner for almost no cost you'll probably force someone to go find a health kit. It's the same feeling as when a Medic heals you to not-quite full health. You could get in the fight like that, but you're going to be at a disadvantage and more likely to die without accomplishing anything. Sure it's the same damage you could have taken from a Soldier or Demoman, but there's a higher chance in those cases that you could at least retaliate.
>Sure it's the same damage you could have taken from a Soldier or Demoman
Soldier and demo tend to do way more in most scenarios where they are in spam range and also benefit way more from things like crits or engi building damage. Any number of things counter the damage or kill pyro at spam range.
I dont cry about it because the weapon is basically useless if theres a medic on your team, also I barely see the fricking weapon anymore unless its paired with the Phlog and everyone and their fricking mom hate that fricking thing because the Phlog is for people that actually dont play pyro and want to win.
Demoman and Soldier are slow, (unless they sacrifice health for bursts of mobility) have limited ammo and need to reload their weapons, are subject to damage ramp up and falloff and all in all are both classes that have weaknesses of downtime, limited mobility and range that make taking random potshots with their weapons a waste of time and resources when they could be fighting up close and putting both themselves and the enemy at much higher risk of dying.
Pyro is fast with a free speed boost in his melee slot, the Scorch Shot auto reloads and has no damage falloff plus ignites and mini crits on ignited enemies for good measure, and his primary weapon doesn't require reloading. He can pick his fights and has essentially zero downtime or range limit, giving him little incentive not to be a nuisance firing off potshots whenever his secondary weapon is loaded.
Pyrogays are delusional.
as a guy whos been playing on Danes server and is a demo main only demo is slow soldiers have their negative nullified when they equip the gunboats, its actually revealed to me just how much of a crutch Gunboats are >Soldier gets overhealed >Jumps into your team for free and dive bomb your medic because frick you Iam overhealed and I take no damage when jumping >Jumps away if he fricks up or manage to get him to back off
Its fricking wild how when the game had no items for awhile soldier play on Danes dropped significantly revealing that a ton of soldier "mains" actually cannot play soldier without their stupid fricking boots its like the biggest fricking secret to these guys and they all downplay it really hard.
Demo is sometimes not slow though from shields or stickies, but yeah they are more honest than soldiers because it isn't on demand like they have it, they have to wait a bit before detonation AND they have less health AND no way to negate or lessen the damage.
do you Black person monkey understand how pellets work?
I do and that's why I usually run shotgun with Pyro. SS is only good to piss off snipers or to try and get morons like you to overextend just to kill someone who is barely doing anything. I guess it is okay at giving a tiny boost to your jump as well
>you dont oneshot an engineer as a scout from that range
Where does it say that? I think you are misreading the picture.
Both of those require two shots, orange area is three.
His speed with the Powerjack is enough to run to and from anything that presents a threat outside of a Scout, and the only other thing making his melee slot particularly valuable is the Homewrecker which is a more situational pick.
For secondary mobility the Scorch Shot and Detonator are still options that don't require sacrificing offensive power. >His defense is really bad since it just doesn't really work unless your enemy is really careless with projectiles (it is reliant on your enemy fricking up and shooting at the right time rather than you being good with it)
If you're good at reflecting their only other option is not firing projectiles at all.
>His speed with the Powerjack is enough to run to and from anything that presents a threat outside of a Scout
Wrong. It can't outrun rocket jumps, shield charge, sticky jumps, hitscan, slowdown from some weapons, or even a random low health soldier who wants to get lucky with the escape plan. >and the only other thing making his melee slot particularly valuable is the Homewrecker which is a more situational pick
If you go by modern standards, but I was thinking back in 2013 days when the axtinguisher was actually usable as well and it was a hard call between it, homewrecker, and powerjack, with maybe the neon as a meme on certain maps >If you're good at reflecting their only other option is not firing projectiles at all.
Not really, you can shoot at angles the pyro can't deal with and pyro has way less ammo to reflect than other classes have to shoot. And every non stock flamethrower makes this issue even worse since valve hates pyro and no matter what flamethrower they give him the down side is always "also airblast is worse to a varying degree in addition to every other downside". And homosexual classes like soldier can just jump away unless they are dumb enough to get caught underground, and even then if you are good enough you still can. You also tend to have more hp so you can afford to make more mistakes than the pyro.
I'd give it to the hitscan classes that can challenge Pyro's mobility, Scout and Pyro.
Shield charges and low health Escape Plan Soldiers trying to close in with a Pyro are suicidal, and explosive jumping to close in means sacrificing health to close with a class who can airblast, have a flare ready for free and still run faster. I'd be more likely to pursue a Scout if there's not a high enough health discrepancy that I am sure I can jump in without gunboats, tank a flare, and kill him with the shotgun >Not really, you can shoot at angles the pyro can't deal with and pyro has way less ammo to reflect than other classes have to shoot.
This was true before Jungle Inferno when they made airblasts more lenient. Pyro has a ridiculous amount of ammo to where I don't find running out to be a problem outside of some all-out defense of a sentry or pushing back an uber.
1 week ago
Anonymous
>Shield charges and low health Escape Plan Soldiers trying to close in with a Pyro are suicidal, and explosive jumping to close in means sacrificing health to close with a class who can airblast, have a flare ready for free and still run faster. I'd be more likely to pursue a Scout if there's not a high enough health discrepancy that I am sure I can jump in without gunboats, tank a flare, and kill him with the shotgun
Not really, if a pyro is running away that usually means he is already low health since distance is a huge disadvantage for him. >This was true before Jungle Inferno when they made airblasts more lenient
I got news for you https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Source-1-Games/issues/5522#issuecomment-2071853901
And even with this they are still worse than they used to be prenerf because the trajectory is still fricked and combos still suck. >Pyro has a ridiculous amount of ammo to where I don't find running out to be a problem outside of some all-out defense of a sentry or pushing back an uber.
What parallel universe are you living in? Even in the best cast scenario with stock pyro has 10 shots with stock and that is assuming you are ONLY airblasting and not using a puff of flame to scare them into shooting.
You technically get more with dragon's fury but it is a joke to use it for that since the delay is terrible.
>Only half true for both
How is it half true?
They are the second and third slowest classes in the game. Not like they can constantly rocket/sticky jump everywhere and especially in combat. >True for demo primary, untrue for everything else.
How the frick is hitting someone at the very edge of your splash damage Maximizing damage? You literally deal less damage the further your explosives are from the target. >At the cost of huge splash
The splash radius is 2.8/2.7m or 146 hu, which can be cleared by every class in less than a second. Heavy being able to move 231 hu/s and average speed classes being able to clear that distance in less than half a second.
And that’s for just rockets. Grenades only explode on play contact or after a few seconds.
>They are the second and third slowest classes in the game
Under base movement, full health, no charge, no shoes, and not using the whip, perhaps. But they have tons of tools to get around this that are both vertical and horizontal speed related built into their kits, pyro has 2 choices one of which takes a shit ton of health and the other takes his most valuable weapons slot for the equivalent of a shittier rocket jumper. >How the frick is hitting someone at the very edge of your splash damage Maximizing damage?
You don't need to get direct hits for max damage, just the green zone at mid range.
Because their (AOE) damage is for the most part inconsistent, and really only direct hits and crockets will one hit kill you. They're really not very good classes when it comes to objectives, and I find demoknights especially humorous as a pyromain.
There's no harm because people just play soldier to duel with one another, and demo to spam. This is half the problem with TF2. 90% of the match is deathmatch in the direction of the objective, and then the last five seconds there's an uber push with probably anything other than a soldier or a demo and that ends the game.
"Deathmatch in the general direction of the objective" is the most 90% of players can handle. That's why they hate hydro, because it requires people to play a role and work with purpose towards the objective instead of just running at the enemy and dying over and over. Making the payload cart act as a dispenser was an essential part of the design of pl, since otherwise these people wouldn't even think to touch the objective as it wouldn't be assisting them in dming.
>This is half the problem with TF2. 90% of the match is deathmatch in the direction of the objective
Is that actually a problem if it's why TF2 was so popular?
>Engineer mains cries out in pain as he makes Scout and Pyro unplayable while forcing his opponent to have a Medic specifically to Uber into his Sentry
engineer, like sniper, is heavily dependent on map design for balance. engineer only hardcounters scout on poorly designed maps
on a map like gravelpit scout has free reign to just find another doorway. on a bad map like dustbowl scout is unplayable whether or not the enemy has sentries.
>Both are extremely easy targets due to both being slow >Both have projectiles as their primary that for maximizing damage requires you to hit dead on >Only Soldier has any form of hitscan which is his shotguns >Previously mentioned projectiles are pretty slow, even slower than most other projectiles >The Splash damage they have (which they factually need to compensate for how hard landing directs are) also damages them so you can just get close and easily get themselves killed >That or you can reactively dodge at a distance while taking hitscan potshots >If they don’t kill you with 1 mag, they take forever to reload making them vulnerable
People don’t whine about Soldier or Demo because they aren’t overpowered. It’s harder to make generalists OP because they aren’t so polarizing.
>Both are extremely easy targets due to both being slow
Only half true for both >Both have projectiles as their primary that for maximizing damage requires you to hit dead on
True for demo primary, untrue for everything else. >Only Soldier has any form of hitscan which is his shotguns
True >Previously mentioned projectiles are pretty slow, even slower than most other projectiles
At the cost of huge splash >The Splash damage they have (which they factually need to compensate for how hard landing directs are) also damages them so you can just get close and easily get themselves killed
Half true and doesn't apply to crits or lucky crits. Most classes have to take huge risks in even getting that close though since it means less fall off for damage and their hp is high enough to change a loss into a tie >That or you can reactively dodge at a distance while taking hitscan potshots
True but they have the health advantage on most encounters and the option to flee >If they don’t kill you with 1 mag, they take forever to reload making them vulnerable
This is the only true thing but even then there is some exception like with demoknight or soldier shotgun.
Only classes that can outmaneuver him without sacrificing health are Scout, Demoknight with heads, sometimes Medic and another Pyro. And in the cases of Medic and Demoknight they should only be running away. It's not just the speed, he can apply pressure to any pursuers with flares and defend himself with the airblast.
The best thing Pyro has is the ability to pick his fights. People like to claim he's an ambush class, but if he actually had the mobility of a class like Demoman he would be back to doing nothing but watching sentry nests and spychecking. >all he can realistically do with the SS is harass or buy time for teammates to get a kill.
The harassing is what people find frustrating about the SS. Shoot it at a corner for almost no cost you'll probably force someone to go find a health kit. It's the same feeling as when a Medic heals you to not-quite full health. You could get in the fight like that, but you're going to be at a disadvantage and more likely to die without accomplishing anything. Sure it's the same damage you could have taken from a Soldier or Demoman, but there's a higher chance in those cases that you could at least retaliate.
Sniper can one shot him, spy can sneak by, etc. SS is not as OP as you are considering since everything puts out fire and most classes have some way to heal and medkits are plentiful on most maps as well.
As for the pressure getting mid range means he has to use a shitty weapon like the scorch shot while in your effective range for most classes since the flamethrower can't reach.
Pyro cannot pick fights at all, he ambushes and has the advantage in scenarios where both players are surprised (assuming no crits)
SS is not annoying at all compared to soldier suicide bombing when you have them dead to rights or cross map snipers. If the Pyro is spamming SS that typically means they are attacking a choke point meaning the flanks are open, it's not like the sniper where it is on demand instakill
>Sniper can one shot him, spy can sneak by, etc.
I don't see what you're getting at.
The Scorch Shot is not OP; it is a frustrating weapon to deal with for reasons explained above."Just heal bro" could apply to any source of damage in the game so meaningless to bring up. Forcing the enemy to seek healing is the point of any damage dealt that doesn't outright kill. >Pyro cannot pick fights at all
How so? He has some of the highest mobility, ranged and defensive options in the game. His strength lies in that very versatility. >SS is not annoying at all
Clearly others do not agree.
>Only half true for both
How is it half true?
They are the second and third slowest classes in the game. Not like they can constantly rocket/sticky jump everywhere and especially in combat. >True for demo primary, untrue for everything else.
How the frick is hitting someone at the very edge of your splash damage Maximizing damage? You literally deal less damage the further your explosives are from the target. >At the cost of huge splash
The splash radius is 2.8/2.7m or 146 hu, which can be cleared by every class in less than a second. Heavy being able to move 231 hu/s and average speed classes being able to clear that distance in less than half a second.
And that’s for just rockets. Grenades only explode on play contact or after a few seconds.
>The splash radius is 2.8/2.7m or 146 hu, which can be cleared by every class in less than a second. Heavy being able to move 231 hu/s and average speed classes being able to clear that distance in less than half a second. >And that’s for just rockets. Grenades only explode on play contact or after a few seconds.
Cool theory but at mid range soldier can make 2 of those overlap
Pills I have no issue with for a variety of reasons, the first of which you described.
>Choose Big Earner, Kunai, Candy Cane, or Sandman >”Wah why can Soldier oneshot me when I walk directly into his face and he doesn’t instantly die himself!”
Why are Soldierwhiners such scrubs?
>snipers consider buskwhacka mandatory >get plinked by ss >genuinely unaware the option to not have -20% fire resist exists >uhhhh give us 50% fire resist and afterburn immunity or we get ONESHOT (when standing in the open for the full afterburn duration((and not using their jar to extinguish)) Its OP!
Soldier is the only class that benefits from crits the most and yet also can't be oneshot by his own bullshit crockets.
Him being good at everything if the player playing is good enough is the same reason why people don't like sniper and why medic is so powerful as well, when played optimally there is almost nothing you can do to kill them short of switching to one of them.
Pyro is shit compared to the dark triad that I listed though. Honestly the only real reason to not play Soldier, Medic, or Sniper from a competitive/tryhard stand point is to distract the other team's Solder, Medic, or Sniper, or to to try and disrupt them. Those 3 classes are the only ones in the game that have everything going for them regarding game mechanics, Soldier gets the best of the movement and the best balance at health/damage, Medic amplifies this further, and Sniper is the best at getting picks and single target damage, and also has a passive defense in items and damage fall-off/combat avoidance.
>Sniper can one shot him, spy can sneak by, etc.
I don't see what you're getting at.
The Scorch Shot is not OP; it is a frustrating weapon to deal with for reasons explained above."Just heal bro" could apply to any source of damage in the game so meaningless to bring up. Forcing the enemy to seek healing is the point of any damage dealt that doesn't outright kill. >Pyro cannot pick fights at all
How so? He has some of the highest mobility, ranged and defensive options in the game. His strength lies in that very versatility. >SS is not annoying at all
Clearly others do not agree.
>it is a frustrating weapon to deal with for reasons explained above.
It isn't since every map has health kits and every class has a way to deal with it. Name a class and I can name you a way to deal with the damage in some way. Unlike other classes when dealing with sniper or soldier who just have to eat shit and have no items to negate blast or bullet damage or to make them not 1 or 2 hit you from med or long range >How so? He has some of the highest mobility, ranged and defensive options in the game. His strength lies in that very versatility.
Half true. His speed is nothing special and for most of his mobility he has to give up a valuable melee slot or his valuable secondary slot. His defense is really bad since it just doesn't really work unless your enemy is really careless with projectiles (it is reliant on your enemy fricking up and shooting at the right time rather than you being good with it) or tries to use fire on you for some reason.
He is the least versatile class in the game besides post ambassador nerf spy because valve has made him a one trick pony by nerfing all of his other options. His burst damage is shit, his close range damage is shit, his defense isn't enough to live more than 2 rockets (or 1 crit), he has a big hit box, mediocre speed, bugged damage ramp up etc.
His speed with the Powerjack is enough to run to and from anything that presents a threat outside of a Scout, and the only other thing making his melee slot particularly valuable is the Homewrecker which is a more situational pick.
For secondary mobility the Scorch Shot and Detonator are still options that don't require sacrificing offensive power. >His defense is really bad since it just doesn't really work unless your enemy is really careless with projectiles (it is reliant on your enemy fricking up and shooting at the right time rather than you being good with it)
If you're good at reflecting their only other option is not firing projectiles at all.
Soldier can't one tap scouts unless he is using the direct hit. >fastest projectiles
It's a fast projectile sure, but then again, it is a projectile and projectiles are not as consistent as hitscan.
>I wonder what class this guy mains
I main scout because scout is the main character of tf2
Soldiers and Demos do require less skill to be effective, but last I remembered, this is game is called TEAM fortress 2, not Soldier and Demo Fortress 2. Pick your fights and acknowledge your weaknesses, it's the only way to get better in terms of split second decision making.
Because they’re made by known scammers who commit false advertising and fraud.
Valve screwed over the Artifact fanbase by cancelling the Artifact 2.0 beta without even allowing users to invite friends like they said they would in January 2021 and does not deserve your financial support for these gross consumer-unfriendly practices.
if you spam cross map and hit the enemy in the feet (35 damage aoe) it knocks up. the player hit is stuck in the air while the fire does damage (4 per tick). then when the projectile hits the ground (before the player, always. it is one of the only true combos in the game) it does damage again (65) and afterburn refreshes. this is 180+ damage at any range from a no commit secondary
a soldier spam rocket or demoman pill in the same situation does 25-50 damage
Because I main Heavy and Medic so these guys are not a threat to me. Even when they are good, they cannot instantly delete me from the game without feeling like I had a chance to fight back or escape, at least not consistently or reliably, like spy and sniper do. As a medic if they kill me it's usually my fault for overextending. As a heavy it's usually because of a random crit, a market gardener who I saw coming but who hit me before I could shoot him down, or because I chased a demo round a corner and walked into his sticky trap like an idiot.
Because I main Heavy and Medic so these guys are not a threat to me. Even when they are good, they cannot instantly delete me from the game without feeling like I had a chance to fight back or escape, at least not consistently or reliably, like spy and sniper do. As a medic if they kill me it's usually my fault for overextending. As a heavy it's usually because of a random crit, a market gardener who I saw coming but who hit me before I could shoot him down, or because I chased a demo round a corner and walked into his sticky trap like an idiot.
Only thing that bothers me is the yeet cannon which can completely block an uber, and unlike pyro, doesn't have to get in my LOS to do it so no chance of killing them. But that's its entire purpose and there needs to be some means to block an uber heavy.
Because soldiers and demos are fun to both play as and fight against. The fact that their attacks are based on projectiles with slow trajectories means that you can predict their shots, bait, punish, reflect, etc. or even surf them and use it against them.
Sniper is fun to play as (if you're good) and awful to fight against. Hitscan shots with instant massive damage. Trying to counter them is a slow, tedious process that means you're doing frickall else for the team for a significant chunk of time, and on certain maps where sightlines cover a significant portion of the map (Upward is the PERFECT example), often there's frickall you can do other than get half of the team to zerg rush and take him out of the fight for 30 seconds.
>Sniper is fun to play as (if you're good) and awful to fight against.
No fun to play with either. Countless times seen a bunch of red snipers just stood there covering the backline while a single medic pushes the cart in during overtime. Get in there and fricking defend, don't care what class you are, it's irrelevant when the game is imminently ending. Useless c**ts who make the game less fun for literally everyone else on the server besides themselves.
Sniper CAN be fun to play if you play somewhat aggressively and can hit heads consistently. It's a sort of fun that's very divorced from the spirit of the game though, imo.
All pl maps have that issue, they are glorified shoe boxes. Someone modded the game to give sniper MvM style laser sights and it immediately improved the game because it gave him a form of interaction with other players, a visual cue that he's around and a way to tell if you're dodging his shots or not. TF2C gave him a semi invisible bullet trail so you can vaguely tell when he's in the area and where the shot came from, giving him some form of punishment for missing his shots too.
I like these ideas but at the end of the day he still breaks the game by being a class that's effective at ANY range in a game where the rest of the classes are balanced around mostly fighting at very short distances.
>Sniper CAN be fun to play if you play somewhat aggressively and can hit heads consistently.
Besides my point which was that it's no fun for anyone else in the game, team mates and enemies alike. Just like spy it's great fun for the player at the expense of their team who usually loses and the enemy who experiences the least fun death in the game. I will admit spies can be good team mates if played as traditionally intended by taking out key targets and sapping buildings. The vast majority do not though, it's all about racking up kills.
I hate that TF2 has gone this way. Load up any 32 man game and there will be, without fail, at least 2 spies and at least 2 snipers on each team. You will occasionally get multiple medics, pyros, heavies, scouts etc but I guarantee that sniper and spy doubles or even triples up before those classes. Newer players (lets say from the latter half of the game's life, 2016 onward) seem to only care about killstreaks and pwning people which is why they gravitate immediately toward insta kill classes i.e. spy and sniper. I just want to play a friendly casual game and work as a team to see who can win but that culture is long gone.
All pl maps have that issue, they are glorified shoe boxes. Someone modded the game to give sniper MvM style laser sights and it immediately improved the game because it gave him a form of interaction with other players, a visual cue that he's around and a way to tell if you're dodging his shots or not. TF2C gave him a semi invisible bullet trail so you can vaguely tell when he's in the area and where the shot came from, giving him some form of punishment for missing his shots too.
This piece of shit. >what if we made soldier better than DEMOman at destroying buildings? >let's also make it oneshot Scouts, the 1v1 assassin class >and mini sentries so engineers cannot play offensively at all >and make the projectile fast so it's easier to hit people and Pyro has a harder time reflecting it >a downside? Huh... less splash damage (it still has some, tho).
>Pyro has a harder time reflecting it
Airblasting soldiertards is 90% prediction/10% reaction
If you can't read those bucketheads like an open book there is something seriously wrong with you
My position is right in front of the soldier, causing the moron to shoot a rocket I know is coming, meaning I reflect him in his moronic face and get a kill
at a certain range it's literally impossible to airblast a rocket if you see it first. You have to predict when the soldier will shoot instead of waiting for him to shoot first. I'll give an example. >Soldier right infront of you (close range), not looking at you >you hit him with your flames >he looks back immediately >the second he looks back fully you airblast even if he didn't shoot yet
that's how i do it and it works 90% of the time. You have to put yourself in the shoes of most soldiers who'll spam their entire clip at you. Better soldiers will wait between shots and switch to a secondary so you have to play differently around them but those are a tiny minority from my experience
He said it's 90% what you described which is plain wrong. Pyro is a versatile class that does not depend on fighting at that range at all times. Some of the best games I ever had as the class involved sitting by a sentry and reflecting far away projectiles for like 5-8 minutes.
If you're relying that heavily on prediction your positioning is severely wrong. Pyro's secondaries can still frick over targets outside of his range, it's just less flashy. That being said, the DH gives you less room to do either AND you take extra damage. It's on par with the diamondback as a weapon that rewards you for existing.
>literally called the demolition class
>doesn't want it to be broken
For me, it’s the fact that everyone cries about the scorch shot being a shitter weapon that you will go to hell for using, but soldier and demo’s main form of damage is the exact same as the SS except it does all of its damage instantly and takes just as much skill to use
Demoman and Soldier are slow, (unless they sacrifice health for bursts of mobility) have limited ammo and need to reload their weapons, are subject to damage ramp up and falloff and all in all are both classes that have weaknesses of downtime, limited mobility and range that make taking random potshots with their weapons a waste of time and resources when they could be fighting up close and putting both themselves and the enemy at much higher risk of dying.
Pyro is fast with a free speed boost in his melee slot, the Scorch Shot auto reloads and has no damage falloff plus ignites and mini crits on ignited enemies for good measure, and his primary weapon doesn't require reloading. He can pick his fights and has essentially zero downtime or range limit, giving him little incentive not to be a nuisance firing off potshots whenever his secondary weapon is loaded.
Pyrogays are delusional.
>wtf why do other classes have advantages in certain areas
And the explosive kiddo comes in with his moronic logic right on que
You raised the comparison, moron.
Let's also not mention that the Scorch Shot projectile is faster than a Direct Hit rocket and has twice the blast radius.
t. hasn't played tf2 in years
>He can pick his fights and has essentially zero downtime or range limit, giving him little incentive not to be a nuisance firing off potshots whenever his secondary weapon is loaded.
He can't pick his fights though, all he can realistically do with the SS is harass or buy time for teammates to get a kill. SS is only useful to actually get kills if you shoot someone with low health (something that will realistically happen solo as pyro if you have already lowered it at close range with a flamethrower and they are trying to escape)
Also another pyro with a shotgun just counters you if you use the SS.
If you want to de-incentivize using the weapon then tell those homosexuals at valve to unnerf afterburn duration for flamethrowers, unnerf flamethrower damage, unnerf airblast, and unnerf combos and combo weapons.
At the moment the best way to apply afterburn consistently is flares because of the nerfs and the most consistent flare gun is the scorch shot. Blame those candy asses at valve for surgically removing almost every other viable tool pyro used to have
Only classes that can outmaneuver him without sacrificing health are Scout, Demoknight with heads, sometimes Medic and another Pyro. And in the cases of Medic and Demoknight they should only be running away. It's not just the speed, he can apply pressure to any pursuers with flares and defend himself with the airblast.
The best thing Pyro has is the ability to pick his fights. People like to claim he's an ambush class, but if he actually had the mobility of a class like Demoman he would be back to doing nothing but watching sentry nests and spychecking.
>all he can realistically do with the SS is harass or buy time for teammates to get a kill.
The harassing is what people find frustrating about the SS. Shoot it at a corner for almost no cost you'll probably force someone to go find a health kit. It's the same feeling as when a Medic heals you to not-quite full health. You could get in the fight like that, but you're going to be at a disadvantage and more likely to die without accomplishing anything. Sure it's the same damage you could have taken from a Soldier or Demoman, but there's a higher chance in those cases that you could at least retaliate.
>Sure it's the same damage you could have taken from a Soldier or Demoman
Soldier and demo tend to do way more in most scenarios where they are in spam range and also benefit way more from things like crits or engi building damage. Any number of things counter the damage or kill pyro at spam range.
I think you should just learn to deal with it, when a game presents you a challenge you need to change the way you play or loose.
I dont cry about it because the weapon is basically useless if theres a medic on your team, also I barely see the fricking weapon anymore unless its paired with the Phlog and everyone and their fricking mom hate that fricking thing because the Phlog is for people that actually dont play pyro and want to win.
as a guy whos been playing on Danes server and is a demo main only demo is slow soldiers have their negative nullified when they equip the gunboats, its actually revealed to me just how much of a crutch Gunboats are
>Soldier gets overhealed
>Jumps into your team for free and dive bomb your medic because frick you Iam overhealed and I take no damage when jumping
>Jumps away if he fricks up or manage to get him to back off
Its fricking wild how when the game had no items for awhile soldier play on Danes dropped significantly revealing that a ton of soldier "mains" actually cannot play soldier without their stupid fricking boots its like the biggest fricking secret to these guys and they all downplay it really hard.
Demo is sometimes not slow though from shields or stickies, but yeah they are more honest than soldiers because it isn't on demand like they have it, they have to wait a bit before detonation AND they have less health AND no way to negate or lessen the damage.
I do and that's why I usually run shotgun with Pyro. SS is only good to piss off snipers or to try and get morons like you to overextend just to kill someone who is barely doing anything. I guess it is okay at giving a tiny boost to your jump as well
you dont oneshot an engineer as a scout from that range, mathematically impossible
just roll a crit bro
>you dont oneshot an engineer as a scout from that range
Where does it say that? I think you are misreading the picture.
Both of those require two shots, orange area is three.
>His speed with the Powerjack is enough to run to and from anything that presents a threat outside of a Scout
Wrong. It can't outrun rocket jumps, shield charge, sticky jumps, hitscan, slowdown from some weapons, or even a random low health soldier who wants to get lucky with the escape plan.
>and the only other thing making his melee slot particularly valuable is the Homewrecker which is a more situational pick
If you go by modern standards, but I was thinking back in 2013 days when the axtinguisher was actually usable as well and it was a hard call between it, homewrecker, and powerjack, with maybe the neon as a meme on certain maps
>If you're good at reflecting their only other option is not firing projectiles at all.
Not really, you can shoot at angles the pyro can't deal with and pyro has way less ammo to reflect than other classes have to shoot. And every non stock flamethrower makes this issue even worse since valve hates pyro and no matter what flamethrower they give him the down side is always "also airblast is worse to a varying degree in addition to every other downside". And homosexual classes like soldier can just jump away unless they are dumb enough to get caught underground, and even then if you are good enough you still can. You also tend to have more hp so you can afford to make more mistakes than the pyro.
I'd give it to the hitscan classes that can challenge Pyro's mobility, Scout and Pyro.
Shield charges and low health Escape Plan Soldiers trying to close in with a Pyro are suicidal, and explosive jumping to close in means sacrificing health to close with a class who can airblast, have a flare ready for free and still run faster. I'd be more likely to pursue a Scout if there's not a high enough health discrepancy that I am sure I can jump in without gunboats, tank a flare, and kill him with the shotgun
>Not really, you can shoot at angles the pyro can't deal with and pyro has way less ammo to reflect than other classes have to shoot.
This was true before Jungle Inferno when they made airblasts more lenient. Pyro has a ridiculous amount of ammo to where I don't find running out to be a problem outside of some all-out defense of a sentry or pushing back an uber.
>Shield charges and low health Escape Plan Soldiers trying to close in with a Pyro are suicidal, and explosive jumping to close in means sacrificing health to close with a class who can airblast, have a flare ready for free and still run faster. I'd be more likely to pursue a Scout if there's not a high enough health discrepancy that I am sure I can jump in without gunboats, tank a flare, and kill him with the shotgun
Not really, if a pyro is running away that usually means he is already low health since distance is a huge disadvantage for him.
>This was true before Jungle Inferno when they made airblasts more lenient
I got news for you https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Source-1-Games/issues/5522#issuecomment-2071853901
And even with this they are still worse than they used to be prenerf because the trajectory is still fricked and combos still suck.
>Pyro has a ridiculous amount of ammo to where I don't find running out to be a problem outside of some all-out defense of a sentry or pushing back an uber.
What parallel universe are you living in? Even in the best cast scenario with stock pyro has 10 shots with stock and that is assuming you are ONLY airblasting and not using a puff of flame to scare them into shooting.
You technically get more with dragon's fury but it is a joke to use it for that since the delay is terrible.
>They are the second and third slowest classes in the game
Under base movement, full health, no charge, no shoes, and not using the whip, perhaps. But they have tons of tools to get around this that are both vertical and horizontal speed related built into their kits, pyro has 2 choices one of which takes a shit ton of health and the other takes his most valuable weapons slot for the equivalent of a shittier rocket jumper.
>How the frick is hitting someone at the very edge of your splash damage Maximizing damage?
You don't need to get direct hits for max damage, just the green zone at mid range.
The fact they never went back to release the fully completed demo version kind of goes to show how bad an idea they were in the first place.
Because their (AOE) damage is for the most part inconsistent, and really only direct hits and crockets will one hit kill you. They're really not very good classes when it comes to objectives, and I find demoknights especially humorous as a pyromain.
Because everyone plays that effective class, theres no harm if too many people on the team pick Soldier or Demo
There's no harm because people just play soldier to duel with one another, and demo to spam. This is half the problem with TF2. 90% of the match is deathmatch in the direction of the objective, and then the last five seconds there's an uber push with probably anything other than a soldier or a demo and that ends the game.
"Deathmatch in the general direction of the objective" is the most 90% of players can handle. That's why they hate hydro, because it requires people to play a role and work with purpose towards the objective instead of just running at the enemy and dying over and over. Making the payload cart act as a dispenser was an essential part of the design of pl, since otherwise these people wouldn't even think to touch the objective as it wouldn't be assisting them in dming.
>This is half the problem with TF2. 90% of the match is deathmatch in the direction of the objective
Is that actually a problem if it's why TF2 was so popular?
Because it is not the soupe du jour thing to complain about. Don't let your opinion be dictated by r/tf2 pseudo game designers and troontubers.
>Engineer mains cries out in pain as he makes Scout and Pyro unplayable while forcing his opponent to have a Medic specifically to Uber into his Sentry
engineer, like sniper, is heavily dependent on map design for balance. engineer only hardcounters scout on poorly designed maps
on a map like gravelpit scout has free reign to just find another doorway. on a bad map like dustbowl scout is unplayable whether or not the enemy has sentries.
>Both are extremely easy targets due to both being slow
>Both have projectiles as their primary that for maximizing damage requires you to hit dead on
>Only Soldier has any form of hitscan which is his shotguns
>Previously mentioned projectiles are pretty slow, even slower than most other projectiles
>The Splash damage they have (which they factually need to compensate for how hard landing directs are) also damages them so you can just get close and easily get themselves killed
>That or you can reactively dodge at a distance while taking hitscan potshots
>If they don’t kill you with 1 mag, they take forever to reload making them vulnerable
People don’t whine about Soldier or Demo because they aren’t overpowered. It’s harder to make generalists OP because they aren’t so polarizing.
>Both are extremely easy targets due to both being slow
Only half true for both
>Both have projectiles as their primary that for maximizing damage requires you to hit dead on
True for demo primary, untrue for everything else.
>Only Soldier has any form of hitscan which is his shotguns
True
>Previously mentioned projectiles are pretty slow, even slower than most other projectiles
At the cost of huge splash
>The Splash damage they have (which they factually need to compensate for how hard landing directs are) also damages them so you can just get close and easily get themselves killed
Half true and doesn't apply to crits or lucky crits. Most classes have to take huge risks in even getting that close though since it means less fall off for damage and their hp is high enough to change a loss into a tie
>That or you can reactively dodge at a distance while taking hitscan potshots
True but they have the health advantage on most encounters and the option to flee
>If they don’t kill you with 1 mag, they take forever to reload making them vulnerable
This is the only true thing but even then there is some exception like with demoknight or soldier shotgun.
Sniper can one shot him, spy can sneak by, etc. SS is not as OP as you are considering since everything puts out fire and most classes have some way to heal and medkits are plentiful on most maps as well.
As for the pressure getting mid range means he has to use a shitty weapon like the scorch shot while in your effective range for most classes since the flamethrower can't reach.
Pyro cannot pick fights at all, he ambushes and has the advantage in scenarios where both players are surprised (assuming no crits)
SS is not annoying at all compared to soldier suicide bombing when you have them dead to rights or cross map snipers. If the Pyro is spamming SS that typically means they are attacking a choke point meaning the flanks are open, it's not like the sniper where it is on demand instakill
>Sniper can one shot him, spy can sneak by, etc.
I don't see what you're getting at.
The Scorch Shot is not OP; it is a frustrating weapon to deal with for reasons explained above."Just heal bro" could apply to any source of damage in the game so meaningless to bring up. Forcing the enemy to seek healing is the point of any damage dealt that doesn't outright kill.
>Pyro cannot pick fights at all
How so? He has some of the highest mobility, ranged and defensive options in the game. His strength lies in that very versatility.
>SS is not annoying at all
Clearly others do not agree.
>Only half true for both
How is it half true?
They are the second and third slowest classes in the game. Not like they can constantly rocket/sticky jump everywhere and especially in combat.
>True for demo primary, untrue for everything else.
How the frick is hitting someone at the very edge of your splash damage Maximizing damage? You literally deal less damage the further your explosives are from the target.
>At the cost of huge splash
The splash radius is 2.8/2.7m or 146 hu, which can be cleared by every class in less than a second. Heavy being able to move 231 hu/s and average speed classes being able to clear that distance in less than half a second.
And that’s for just rockets. Grenades only explode on play contact or after a few seconds.
>The splash radius is 2.8/2.7m or 146 hu, which can be cleared by every class in less than a second. Heavy being able to move 231 hu/s and average speed classes being able to clear that distance in less than half a second.
>And that’s for just rockets. Grenades only explode on play contact or after a few seconds.
Cool theory but at mid range soldier can make 2 of those overlap
Pills I have no issue with for a variety of reasons, the first of which you described.
i like how soldier can one shot me up close and not kill himself with a point blank rocket i really like that a lot
>Choose Big Earner, Kunai, Candy Cane, or Sandman
>”Wah why can Soldier oneshot me when I walk directly into his face and he doesn’t instantly die himself!”
Why are Soldierwhiners such scrubs?
i play scout and when i play soldier i never had problem with killing scouts
Scout has a winning matchup against soldier.
only in open area and it's debatable even then
>snipers consider buskwhacka mandatory
>get plinked by ss
>genuinely unaware the option to not have -20% fire resist exists
>uhhhh give us 50% fire resist and afterburn immunity or we get ONESHOT (when standing in the open for the full afterburn duration((and not using their jar to extinguish)) Its OP!
Soldier is the only class that benefits from crits the most and yet also can't be oneshot by his own bullshit crockets.
Him being good at everything if the player playing is good enough is the same reason why people don't like sniper and why medic is so powerful as well, when played optimally there is almost nothing you can do to kill them short of switching to one of them.
the real reason why pyro and soldier are so OP is because the game is balanced around 6v6 competitive and not 12v12
Pyro is shit compared to the dark triad that I listed though. Honestly the only real reason to not play Soldier, Medic, or Sniper from a competitive/tryhard stand point is to distract the other team's Solder, Medic, or Sniper, or to to try and disrupt them. Those 3 classes are the only ones in the game that have everything going for them regarding game mechanics, Soldier gets the best of the movement and the best balance at health/damage, Medic amplifies this further, and Sniper is the best at getting picks and single target damage, and also has a passive defense in items and damage fall-off/combat avoidance.
>it is a frustrating weapon to deal with for reasons explained above.
It isn't since every map has health kits and every class has a way to deal with it. Name a class and I can name you a way to deal with the damage in some way. Unlike other classes when dealing with sniper or soldier who just have to eat shit and have no items to negate blast or bullet damage or to make them not 1 or 2 hit you from med or long range
>How so? He has some of the highest mobility, ranged and defensive options in the game. His strength lies in that very versatility.
Half true. His speed is nothing special and for most of his mobility he has to give up a valuable melee slot or his valuable secondary slot. His defense is really bad since it just doesn't really work unless your enemy is really careless with projectiles (it is reliant on your enemy fricking up and shooting at the right time rather than you being good with it) or tries to use fire on you for some reason.
He is the least versatile class in the game besides post ambassador nerf spy because valve has made him a one trick pony by nerfing all of his other options. His burst damage is shit, his close range damage is shit, his defense isn't enough to live more than 2 rockets (or 1 crit), he has a big hit box, mediocre speed, bugged damage ramp up etc.
do you Black person monkey understand how pellets work?
His speed with the Powerjack is enough to run to and from anything that presents a threat outside of a Scout, and the only other thing making his melee slot particularly valuable is the Homewrecker which is a more situational pick.
For secondary mobility the Scorch Shot and Detonator are still options that don't require sacrificing offensive power.
>His defense is really bad since it just doesn't really work unless your enemy is really careless with projectiles (it is reliant on your enemy fricking up and shooting at the right time rather than you being good with it)
If you're good at reflecting their only other option is not firing projectiles at all.
Soldier has a losing matchup against scout and is out spammed by demos.
Soldier isn't overpowered lmao
>soldier one-tapping scouts with one of the fastest projectiles in the game is a losing matchup
I wonder what class this guy mains
Soldier can't one tap scouts unless he is using the direct hit.
>fastest projectiles
It's a fast projectile sure, but then again, it is a projectile and projectiles are not as consistent as hitscan.
>I wonder what class this guy mains
I main scout because scout is the main character of tf2
Soldiers and Demos do require less skill to be effective, but last I remembered, this is game is called TEAM fortress 2, not Soldier and Demo Fortress 2. Pick your fights and acknowledge your weaknesses, it's the only way to get better in terms of split second decision making.
Wow TF2 sounds really broken you should make a useless hashtag campaign to get Valve to fix it or something
Because they’re made by known scammers who commit false advertising and fraud.
Valve screwed over the Artifact fanbase by cancelling the Artifact 2.0 beta without even allowing users to invite friends like they said they would in January 2021 and does not deserve your financial support for these gross consumer-unfriendly practices.
if you spam cross map and hit the enemy in the feet (35 damage aoe) it knocks up. the player hit is stuck in the air while the fire does damage (4 per tick). then when the projectile hits the ground (before the player, always. it is one of the only true combos in the game) it does damage again (65) and afterburn refreshes. this is 180+ damage at any range from a no commit secondary
a soldier spam rocket or demoman pill in the same situation does 25-50 damage
So? Pyro still sucks ass.
bullshit. high level is pyro sniper demo. sometimes scout if low playercount or vs shitters
Because I main Heavy and Medic so these guys are not a threat to me. Even when they are good, they cannot instantly delete me from the game without feeling like I had a chance to fight back or escape, at least not consistently or reliably, like spy and sniper do. As a medic if they kill me it's usually my fault for overextending. As a heavy it's usually because of a random crit, a market gardener who I saw coming but who hit me before I could shoot him down, or because I chased a demo round a corner and walked into his sticky trap like an idiot.
Because I main Heavy and Medic so these guys are not a threat to me. Even when they are good, they cannot instantly delete me from the game without feeling like I had a chance to fight back or escape, at least not consistently or reliably, like spy and sniper do. As a medic if they kill me it's usually my fault for overextending. As a heavy it's usually because of a random crit, a market gardener who I saw coming but who hit me before I could shoot him down, or because I chased a demo round a corner and walked into his sticky trap like an idiot.
Only thing that bothers me is the yeet cannon which can completely block an uber, and unlike pyro, doesn't have to get in my LOS to do it so no chance of killing them. But that's its entire purpose and there needs to be some means to block an uber heavy.
Because soldiers and demos are fun to both play as and fight against. The fact that their attacks are based on projectiles with slow trajectories means that you can predict their shots, bait, punish, reflect, etc. or even surf them and use it against them.
Sniper is fun to play as (if you're good) and awful to fight against. Hitscan shots with instant massive damage. Trying to counter them is a slow, tedious process that means you're doing frickall else for the team for a significant chunk of time, and on certain maps where sightlines cover a significant portion of the map (Upward is the PERFECT example), often there's frickall you can do other than get half of the team to zerg rush and take him out of the fight for 30 seconds.
>Sniper is fun to play as (if you're good) and awful to fight against.
No fun to play with either. Countless times seen a bunch of red snipers just stood there covering the backline while a single medic pushes the cart in during overtime. Get in there and fricking defend, don't care what class you are, it's irrelevant when the game is imminently ending. Useless c**ts who make the game less fun for literally everyone else on the server besides themselves.
Sniper CAN be fun to play if you play somewhat aggressively and can hit heads consistently. It's a sort of fun that's very divorced from the spirit of the game though, imo.
I like these ideas but at the end of the day he still breaks the game by being a class that's effective at ANY range in a game where the rest of the classes are balanced around mostly fighting at very short distances.
>Sniper CAN be fun to play if you play somewhat aggressively and can hit heads consistently.
Besides my point which was that it's no fun for anyone else in the game, team mates and enemies alike. Just like spy it's great fun for the player at the expense of their team who usually loses and the enemy who experiences the least fun death in the game. I will admit spies can be good team mates if played as traditionally intended by taking out key targets and sapping buildings. The vast majority do not though, it's all about racking up kills.
I hate that TF2 has gone this way. Load up any 32 man game and there will be, without fail, at least 2 spies and at least 2 snipers on each team. You will occasionally get multiple medics, pyros, heavies, scouts etc but I guarantee that sniper and spy doubles or even triples up before those classes. Newer players (lets say from the latter half of the game's life, 2016 onward) seem to only care about killstreaks and pwning people which is why they gravitate immediately toward insta kill classes i.e. spy and sniper. I just want to play a friendly casual game and work as a team to see who can win but that culture is long gone.
>but that culture is long gone.
Yes. Specifically, back in 2008 when 24/7 2fort servers first became popular.
All pl maps have that issue, they are glorified shoe boxes. Someone modded the game to give sniper MvM style laser sights and it immediately improved the game because it gave him a form of interaction with other players, a visual cue that he's around and a way to tell if you're dodging his shots or not. TF2C gave him a semi invisible bullet trail so you can vaguely tell when he's in the area and where the shot came from, giving him some form of punishment for missing his shots too.
>Sticky Demo
>Almost every soldier loadout
Cheap garbage, rightfully called out
>Grenade Launcher Demo
>DH soldier
You genuinely have no right to be mad
This piece of shit.
>what if we made soldier better than DEMOman at destroying buildings?
>let's also make it oneshot Scouts, the 1v1 assassin class
>and mini sentries so engineers cannot play offensively at all
>and make the projectile fast so it's easier to hit people and Pyro has a harder time reflecting it
>a downside? Huh... less splash damage (it still has some, tho).
>Pyro has a harder time reflecting it
Airblasting soldiertards is 90% prediction/10% reaction
If you can't read those bucketheads like an open book there is something seriously wrong with you
You don't play Pyro, shut up.
Sorry you rely on reaction when dealing with brainless Soldiers that click 4 times in a row every time they see you
You played for 500 hours and you still haven't learned positioning dude.
My position is right in front of the soldier, causing the moron to shoot a rocket I know is coming, meaning I reflect him in his moronic face and get a kill
at a certain range it's literally impossible to airblast a rocket if you see it first. You have to predict when the soldier will shoot instead of waiting for him to shoot first. I'll give an example.
>Soldier right infront of you (close range), not looking at you
>you hit him with your flames
>he looks back immediately
>the second he looks back fully you airblast even if he didn't shoot yet
that's how i do it and it works 90% of the time. You have to put yourself in the shoes of most soldiers who'll spam their entire clip at you. Better soldiers will wait between shots and switch to a secondary so you have to play differently around them but those are a tiny minority from my experience
He said it's 90% what you described which is plain wrong. Pyro is a versatile class that does not depend on fighting at that range at all times. Some of the best games I ever had as the class involved sitting by a sentry and reflecting far away projectiles for like 5-8 minutes.
he's correct, what, do you think you can deflect on reaction when you're in extremely close quarters?
If you're relying that heavily on prediction your positioning is severely wrong. Pyro's secondaries can still frick over targets outside of his range, it's just less flashy. That being said, the DH gives you less room to do either AND you take extra damage. It's on par with the diamondback as a weapon that rewards you for existing.
>90% prediction/10% reaction
nah, it's called walking backwards so the rocket takes longer to get to you and panic spamming airblast
why panic spam when I can walk FORWARD and airblast just once because every soldier's panic response when I do that is to spam rockets in rhythm
because they're responsible for actually getting shit done and being the generic damage dealers