Why are SA2B and SADX such a bad ports?
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Why are SA2B and SADX such a bad ports?
Why are SA2B and SADX such a bad ports?
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Irrelevant since mods turned them into the best versions of the games.
this, you can mod it to look exactly like the left image
Do they fix the textures in station square and the water in emerald coast as well?
Which textures in particular?
yes. its a full Dreamcast conversion.
I don't get why people do that. Original Sonic Adventure is way buggier and worse looking than port, does everyone want exactly that? I tried the mod and turned it off after 10 minutes of playing, there is hardly anything that looks better than in DX except the trees and grass. And splash screen at the beginning of the game.
Just turn Lantern Engine back on for better shading. There was supposed to be a mod to restore the GameCube shaders but it never got finished. I also do like the Dreamcast character models better still because the high-poly GameCube character models have clown shoes for some reason, and they look all weirdly puffy. The only model that's aesthetically better on GC is Knuckles because Knuckles has a tumor head on DC.
As for the original being buggier than the port, it's a toss-up. The port is full of *visual* bugs and has gameplay bugs from 60 FPS, but people often claim the collision is worse in the ports when that's simply not the case. They're equally shit, identical except for a single instance in Final Egg Act 2; On DC, an invisible wall prevents you from going backwards at the start of the act. In the ports, that invisible wall is gone so you can roll up the tunnel and fall down the entire level, skipping Act 2 (nobody likes Act 2 anyway).
My favorite bug from SA is from Icecap Zone, where you can stand up in a specific place and camera just slowly pans out to infinity and beyond.
Apparently, they've kept it in DX.
LOL I didn't know that. My favorite is that damn near all of Ice Cap is skippable. https://youtu.be/GEkMkdOFobc
If you're curious why there's people that think the ports are botched, there's a fun autistic blog with lots to read: https://dreamcastify.unreliable.network/index.php/read-this-first/
Regardless of whether the port is better than the original, it's undeniable that the port isn't quite finished. The devs never got to place all the nice stencil shadows in every map like they did for Station Square and Emerald Coast. And the 2004 and HD versions (X360 and PS3) are unarguably inferior to GameCube. Only modded 2004 beats GC.
SA2 still has some disadvantages visually (vertex gloss still not present, Dreamcast stencil shadows have issues, etc) but it gets close enough and the gameplay mods make it bar-none the best way to play. If you're curious what visual bugs still remain, the issues page on the SA2 Render Fix github is pretty comprehensive.
Render Fix is actually in the process of fixing the shadow issues, might possibly be ready for the next release. The biggest things left to restore are the fog system which is used for a lot of lighting effects and specular highlighting
Yeah, with fricktons of bloat.
>making shit games is ok because mods!
I grew up with SA1 and SA2, and now I appreciate bad-but-weird games more than competent-but-normal games. I don't know why other folks don't just admit that they're bad games — they are. It's fun to break them, and analyze what works compared to all the things that don't work. The fact that the PC ports are so busted yet so flexible adds to that, since it leaves you wondering what reverse-engineers will magick up next.
I didn't say it was okay I said it was irrelevant.
No one is playing the vanilla PC port of SA1 today. Many people will emulate the GC or DC versions, but if you're going to take the time to install the PC version then you likely know about its modding scene.
It seems pointless to keep harping on an old shitty port when you've been able to do something about it for nearly a decade now.
>No one is playing the vanilla PC port of SA1 today.
what the frick are you talking about, its easily the most popular version of the game.
The unmodded version? Do you have a source for that?
I imagine more people are playing the GC version in dolphin because that's the version they had as a kid.
sorry, i didnt read your post properly
Yeah, vanilla SADX is dogshit but the modded PC version is pretty much the definitive version, basically being the Dreamcast version but 60FPS
>it looks doesn't look dark anymore therefore bad!
your crappy sonic reboot game is not dark and moody, it's a game about a blue rat who thinks he's hot shit but doesn't realize he's stuck in a garbage game
SA2B is fine, SA:DX is the one I'm constantly hearing bad things about (mainly the Steam port), but I had no issues with it on my GameCube back in the day. I know it's missing certain lighting effects and stuff as seen in the OP image, though
SA2B is visually inferior to Dreamcast in ways that are much easier to identify since many assets remained the same, I'd venture to say it's a worse port than SA –> SADX GC. https://github.com/shaddatic/sa2b-render-fix/issues
This is just a starter pack of visual issues to read through. There's way more than just this. I had a huge writeup in a thread from several months ago but I've lost track of it. Fascinating stuff.
For SA1/DX, differences are too many to count. For all your visual comparison needs, refer to: https://dreamcastify.unreliable.network/index.php/read-this-first/
For non-visual differences: Chao raising is vastly improved, Metal Sonic is added as a reward for getting all emblems (has same stats and abilities as Sonic), there's the added Mission Mode, and the added Game Gear games. There's also one level skip in SADX that's not in the original; you can skip part 2 of Sonic's Final Egg by just going backwards up the slope and falling into the void. On SA1DC, an invisible wall prevents this.
For SA2/SA2B, differences are fewer and more subtle. Chao raising is vastly improved in SA2B, and the multiplayer mode has been overhauled. For visuals:
SA2B broke the game's gloss system, which SA2 depended on for most objects and characters to make its lighting less flat, but it's not a huge deal. You'd be hard-pressed to notice, especially during normal gameplay.
Like SADX, SA2B's textures are overall slightly lower quality compared to the DC original. good luck telling them apart though, the differences are tiny.
Character models are higher poly in a much more subtle way compared to SADX. Looks mostly great except for Sonic/Shadow's weird "moustache" mouths.
Artificial Chaos and Chaos 0's transparencies have been intentionally disabled. The devs didn't implement backface culling (LOL) so the resulting translucencies were too ugly to leave in the game.
There are model tinting issues throughout the game that cause models to display darker than intended. Ever wondered why rings in SA2B looked dull? Or why Sonic's gloves and Tails' eyes/cheeks were weirdly grey?
This is because SA2DC set many objects' and models' diffuse color to a medium grey, which DC either ignored or used in some way. SA2B just applies it as a color offset to any surface that has diffuse, likely an oversight or untouched due to time constraints. Fun fact, every LoD model is tinted.
(cont.)
The cool stencil shadows from the Dreamcast version are gone and have been replaced by more standard framebuffer shadows. Honestly, it's for the best. The DC shadows were impressive for self-shadowing, but due to processing power limitations, devs were limited on the amount of polys they could use for them. So they didn't give the stencil shadows any joints, and frankly it looks weird when characters are in motion with floating Rayman-limb shadows.
SA2B's framebuffer shadows have a couple of issues. EFB shadows are only cast by playable characters and by destroyed cars while they're physics-ing around. Because of this, a lot of models no longer cast shadows, such as all enemies and all non-destroyed cars (cars only cast EFB shadows once you start knocking them around. I have no idea why.)
EFB shadows don't cast on some objects (e.g. boxes) and some surfaces (too many scattered examples to remember).
Pulleys are now an ugly fullbright color and they no longer flash. (Who cares lol). This is caused by that same tinting issue I mentioned earlier; plenty of miscellaneous objects are affected too.
SA2 DC abused the Dreamcast's volumetric fog features for some interesting effects, like security alarms (Iron Gate, Flying Dog, Egg Quarters) and approximated "rain waves" (White Jungle). These effects are gone in SA2B, replaced with full-screen overlays (Flying Dog, Egg Quarters) or with a rotating vertex light (Iron Gate). It could be time constraints, or it could be that the GameCube doesn't have equivalent rendering features that would allow it to do striped fog.
SA2B has transparency issues just like SADX, though differences are subtle. Only example I can remember atm is that water splashes are partially covered by the water's surface.
In SA2B, Eggman has a dynamic headlight that activates in Iron Gate and Lost Colony! This effect isn't present on DC SA2. Looks even cooler when you use per-pixel lighting in Dolphin.
(cont.)
Some Dreamcast cutscenes / cutscene segments play at 30 FPS. These play at 60 on GC, sometimes causing timing issues.
SA2B's aspect ratio is slightly too thin on GC due to the devs not accounting for the GC's weird video output (some non-square pixel bullshit).
Another transparency issue: Character's power-up items aren't affected by any transparencies in cutscenes lmao. Knuckles finding Sonic right after Sonic does Chaos Control is a great example.
SA2 PC port has extra quirks, a majority of which are fixed by mods! But not everything is fixed yet.
New "Now Loading" text causes a lot of crashing every time there's a loading transition. Fixed with a mod loader option.
Game speed tied to framerate, game runs too fast on high-refresh displays. Fixed by a mod loader setting.
There are tons of UV texture mapping issues for level geometry and skyboxes. Modders looked into the game's files and found out that these UV issues don't happen in the actual model data, so something the PC version is doing on-the-fly is causing misalignment.
Not fixed yet.
Most reflection textures no longer work. Spinning spikes, heavy weights, and goal rings no longer have moving textures, so they look static and dull. The few reflection textures that *do* work (Metal Sonic, Chao Walker) break quite often in a way I can't put into words. Regular ring reflections always work correctly, at least there's that.
Both issues are fixed using SA2 Render Fix.
Framebuffer shadows return, but they don't have soft filtered edges like on GameCube. Their new appearance is... the best way I can describe it is "pixel art with a sloppy XBRZ filter). It's not a huge deal in motion but it's ugly on closer inspection.
"Fixed" by bruteforcing higher-res shadows with SA2 Render Fix.
Model tinting is still an issue. Most of these are fixed by SA2 Render Fix, but some edge cases may have been missed. It's done on a case-by-case basis.
Oh you found my posts I mentioned in
! Thanks anon. 😀
and, presumably,
What would you say is the definitive version?
For SA2, easily the modded PC version. It's not a perfect visual match for Dreamcast but it has so many QoL improvements, and it's 98% of the way there visually.
For SA1, I really don't know. I play SADX PC with a full mod setup to make it look like Dreamcast, but only for the sake of visual consistency. I really do like some of SADX's environmental changes, but they were never finished and the character models are *way* too high poly compared to everything else in the game.
For most people I'd say SADX PC with all the normal fixes + Lantern Engine. You won't get some cool Gamecube-exclusive effects — TEV water shader + a neat cel-shaded effect in some areas — but it's the easiest to set up and the one that most people would say looks the best.
But if you really miss those visual niceties, play SADX on Dolphin with a healthy dose of overclocking to keep the game at a full 60 FPS. SADX's models are so stupidly high-poly that it makes the framerate drop almost everywhere on real hardware, so emulator is advised instead. There are a couple of bugs with 60 FPS that aren't fixable on GameCube — a couple of enemies/hazards are too fast — which are fixed on 2004 PC by mods, if you care about that.
I don't recommend any of the original SA1DC releases. Not being able to skip cutscenes is a dealbreaker, and the Chao system is unique but worse. 30 FPS also just feels bad in this game. If you want the full DC experience, play on 2004 PC with the Dreamcast Conversion mod and the Dreamcast Characters Pack mod.
There's a hack for the 1.005 Dreamcast version that adds 60 FPS and widescreen, and it also optionally lets you disable cutscenes altogether, but it still doesn't implement in-engibe cutscene skipping, so you can't just choose to watch only the cutscenes you like - it's either all or none. At least it makes it so that you can skip all the FMV cutscenes now.
https://dcmods.unreliable.network/index.php/2021/08/27/sonic-adventure-dc-hd-first-release/
>Modded PC version
Modded how? Is there a simple package deal? PCGamingWiki isn't being that helpful. Can you go too far wrong with OG Dreamcast version?
There is unfortunately not a package deal for SA2, but there is for SA1. I hope this thread stays alive so I can get the list during lunch hours.
Honestly at this point just play the original DC version of SA2. The various mods that fix the PC version are still being developed, there's still a number of issues to address. It'll probably be at least another few years before the PC version can be recommended completely above the DC version.
With the caveat that you should only play it on a real Dreamcast since the way SA2 DC handles analog input does not play nice with modern controllers. If you don't have a real Dreamcast, play it on Dolphin. Yes it's visually fricked but what can you do?
Despite its current issues I'd still recommend SA2 PC since mods have fixed major visual issues that were awful on GameCube. PC has more numerous issues but they're harder to notice.
I played the emulated version of the game with an Xbone controller and experienced no issues. There's really no point playing the Gamecube version over the PC port, emulated or otherwise.
SA2 PC Starter List:
Get SA2 Mod Manager
Codes tab, check "Disable Loading Tips"
Graphics tab, check "Lock framerate"
Options tab, check "Disable exit prompt" and "Disable loading animation".
Optionally enable "Skip Intro"
Also in Options, click "Enable 1-Click Install"
Mod List:
SA2 Error Msg Fix
No Level-of-Detail models
Disable Upgrade Models (Configurable!)
Knuckles' Animation Fix
Event Timescale Fix
Presentable Eggman Stages*
>Right-Click, Open folder. Delete the dll. Open the gd_PC folder and delete all files except for stg11_fog_DC.bin, stg11_fogB_DC.bin, stg27_fog_DC.bin, and stg27_fogB_DC.bin
Subtitles Fixing (by GameBanablay)
>(OPTIONAL) Dreamcast Characters (Configurable!)
Amy Eyeliner Fix
Oddity Patch (by En Passant)
Kart Stage Water Fix
Menu Overhaul* (by Speeps)
>Click "Configure..." button down below, set options as such: False, False, False, True, False, Vanilla
HD GUI for SA2 (defaults should be fine)
Eggman Lighting Fix (by Exant)
SA2 Render Fix (Configurable!)
>(OPTIONAL) Clearer Sky Rail
>(OPTIONAL) Chaos 0 Water Effect
>(OPTIONAL) Flame Punch Knuckles
>(OPTIONAL) Heart Effect for Rouge
Better Buttons (by SonicFreak94)
Higher Draw Distance*
> Set both multipliers to 2; multipliers 3 and higher break Cannon's Core.
Amy/Metal Spin Dash (by MainMemory)
HedgePanel*
>Configurable, but the main fixes are what you want: Homing Attack at Low Heights, No Low Enemy Bounces, and Bounce up after Light Attack
Sonic New Tricks*
>Highly Configurable.
>Instant or Faster Spin Dash - your choice
>Light Dash Button: Y
>Spin Dash Button: X
>Somersault Button: B
>Everything else: Your choice. I recommend disabling SA1 Sound Effects, Restore Ball Form (too buggy), and Super Bounce
Show A-Rank Requirement
Reworked Afterimages
SA2 Volume Controls (Configurable!)
Calmer Mech Beeps
Tails Cyclone Fix (possibly obsolete due to Render Fix)
Chaos 0 Fix Glow
Deadzone 50%
>(OPTIONAL) Sonic's Alternate Flame Ring
All other mods are buggy, redundant, or subjective.
As much as I would like to recommend Enhanced Chao World and Chao World Extended, I really can't. They're both pretty buggy on their own, and mixing them together without additional problems is very difficult.
There's actually some more mods oops.
Turning Corrections*
>I think this one is harmless? I don't notice a difference on VS off.
BrightFix (fixes Bright Chao)*
>Obsoleted if you use ECW or CWE, but this one is recommended if you don't use those
DC Shadows*
>Not yet complete and has some bugs still.
Hide Bounce Bracelet etc for Shadow*
>Needed if you don't hide Sonic and Shadow upgrades in the Disable Upgrade Models mod.
Stache Fix*
>Fixes those silly mustache-looking textures on Sonic and Shadow's mouths on their GameCube models, if you're not using DC models then you should use this.
Character Select*
>Buggy, but oh-so-fun. Beating most stages as Knuckles/Rouge without out-of-bounds travel requires Knux New Tricks which is frankly a little too buggy.
Knux New Tricks*
>For stability config: False, False, True, True, (your choice), Disabled, (whatever button), B, X
Character Select Plus*
>Much buggier than the original Character Select, seems to crash way more often. If you can get it to be stable, then it's better than the original.
Crazy Gadget camera rotates with gravity*
>Seems to work great but can be disorienting when you're used to the old camera
Better Radar*
>Helpful, but pretty buggy
Minimal Pickup Fix*
>I ran into an unbeatable stage when I enabled this, but now I can't reproduce it.
There's a lot of mods for texture quality, but there's so many I can't tell which ones to use in which order, so I gave up on those for now.
Whew I think that's enough for SA2.
>BrightFix (fixes Bright Chao)*
if you use ECW or CWE, but this one is recommended if you don't use those
I don't think ECW includes BrightFix, but CWE should
>I ran into an unbeatable stage when I enabled this, but now I can't reproduce it.
That mod doesn't seem to touch anything involving stage layouts, just fixes the code for objects to make animals spawn like they're supposed to.
Yeah, I figured it was a weird mod interaction causing it. After doing isolated testing and going back to my old setup, the issue stopped occurring. In all likelihood it was just a coincidence.
OH SHIT FORGOT CAVEAT
SA2 PC has a FRICKhuge analog stick deadzone that makes it hard to play if you're adjusted to the DC / GC controls. This is partially alleviated by a mod called Deadzone 50%. The rest of the deadzone is still pretty big, and it's up to you to fix. I use x360ce, buggy as it is, to put my controller in an input wrapper and crank up the analog stick anti-deadzones.
x360ce values
Left Stick X-Axis:
13% Anti-Dead Zone (4260)
5% Dead Zone (1638)
12% Sensitivity - enable INVERT (more sensitive in the center)
Left Stick Y-Axis:
3% Anti-Dead Zone (983)
14% Dead Zone (4587)
18% Sensitivity - enable INVERT (more sensitive in the center)
You can use any controller wrapper as long as it lets you modify these three values.
If this is all too much effort, then it's your choice between SA2DC vs SA2B GC. SA2B has Chao Karate, DC doesn't. SA2B VS mode is improved, but it's not something you should base your decision on since it's not super great anyway. SA2B is visually broken with no way to fix any of it, so if you care about that then try SA2DC.
One more thing about emulating SA2DC: SA2 is one of those stupid Dreamcast games that relies on weird calibration inaccuracies in the Dreamcast controller's analog stick. If you emulate the DC version, be aware that you won't be able to run in a straight line, and walking gently is impossible. I don't know if there's a way to fix this yet. It works just fine on real hardware, so if you're going with Dreamcast, rev up those fryers I mean disc burners.
SA2B GC has no analog stick issues at all, it just werks.
>https://dreamcastify.unreliable.network/index.php/read-this-first/
There's "unreliable" in your link.
It's all an elaborate ruse.
I'll have to do SADX later, back to work for me.
SADX was ported by a different dev team than the one that made the DC version (yes that includes having a different director) and decided to skimp on QA. SEGA also invested a bunch of money into a new multi platform engine because Sony said if they didn’t release Sonic Heroes on PS2 they wouldn’t publish any other SEGA games.
Because they're bad versions of bad games.
OP for a more fair comparison you should use a GameCube screenshot, everyone knows the PC version(s) are botched
His hands and feet look better on the right.
They separated his fingers but then didn't make his fingers move 🙁 It looks weird lol
I don't think SA2B is seen as a "bad" port.
There's a lot of graphical stuff SA2B fricked up even in the original Gamecube release, but people who are very into chao are willing to overlook it because they did flesh that out pretty well. Made the Hero and Dark gardens worse, unfortunately.
japanese are shit programmers
Left: I can't see shit.
Right: I see everything clearly.
SADX wins. Nice """"lighting"""", dreambabs.