>A Fulfilling MMORPG Experience Requires a Huge Time Investment
>Over-Monetization Ruins the MMORPG Experience
>MMORPG Metas Force Players' Hands
Is this true?
What are the 3 reasons (for you) and why is story (endgame focus) vs (unchanging) world not one of them?
https://www.makeuseof.com/reasons-mmos-are-dying/
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MMOs were cool when I was a kid because stuff like Discord wasn't the norm. But now it is so MMOs are basically pointless.
discord
discord
jackie chan
every game is an mmo now. you grind forever, you rank up, you get loot. every new game wants you to live inside it.
This has pretty much been the online game meta since like 2014 when everyone saw what take two did with rockstar and GTA online.
>every new game wants you to live inside it.
This post is correct, games today have this monkey's paw situation that they are pretty blatantly trying to waste your time with chores/dailies/etc. You are "living" into the game because there's a bunch of checkboxes to check. MMORPGs back then at least had better window dressing to immerse you into the world.
Just stop with these threads now please. This correct answer get posted every thread
mmos were only popular because the internet was still (relatively) new so talking to people in a game was novel
this hasn't been the case for 15+ years
This. Now not only do you not want to talk to people online, doing so carries a significant chance of you getting banned because you're not up to date on the latest wrongspeak.
>appeal of "you can interact with your friends in a persistent world"
>MMOs become a full time job
>online communities spring up in other games or become a background feature of game platforms, e.g. Steam community, Xbox live community, etc.
>the actual fun part of an MMO can be done in a more conventional RPG
>the competitive element is better done by MOBAs
ppl roleplay in fricking overwatch, why do they need the latest wow slop?
No MMO has a good new player experience except GW2, if you join after launch 90% of the content you'll experience is obsolete and everyone is already far ahead
Gw2 literally has expansion content locked behind yet another paywall. If you bought the expansion, but didn't log in when the new area was revealed you got shit on and have to buy the entirety of their idiotic story.
I just wanna fight and play my character. So many games get in the way of this.
I used to like just clicking a sprite in runescape until a skill turned a bigger number but nowadays I've learned from JRPGs that I can do that but also have fun at the same time.
I enjoyed Everquest, Earth & Beyond, Star Wars Galaxies, Anarchy. But when World of Warcraft rolled around my interest in the genre waned, Guild Wars finished it off.
That's why I said when they were popular. Others exised before, of course.
Fair enough. Would you say that WoW was the last major hurrah for the genre or do you think that Final Fantasy will eventually take the crown?
I personally hate the genre because I think it gets rid of all of the good parts of RPGs (at least, anything in the past 20+ or so years has) and focus on all of the bad aspects.
I'd probably say that xiv is ok but from what I've seen it goes out of its way to be unlike most mmos so it's not a very "good mmo" but I don't really think that's something to be desired.
XIV is not an MMO. It's a single player JRPG with some token multiplayer elements stapled on to justify the monthly subscription. Granted, it's a very good JRPG, and probably one of the best that's ever been made. Which is doubly surprising because it's a fricking FF game, a series known for being very thoroughly mid. But it's still not an MMO.
>XIV is not an MMO
its multiplayer
its massive
its online
final fantasy is the textbook definition of a rpg if you give any person born between 1970-2010 a blind test.
FFXIV is only multiplayer for 0.01% of the game, the rest is a single player RPG. Even when you do have to play with others, 90% of the time it's just 3 more people. The only content in the game that can actually be massive is hunts, and that is completely optional.
I always hated that the default for most content was 4 man light parties and not 8 man full parties. I feel like a few of the early leveling dungeons should've been 4 man but any major dungeon should've required eight people with a 2/4/2 composition.
Cutscenes aside, the old MSQ dungeons were great for that reason, I wish at the very least Aetherchemical Reactor and Ala Mhigo would've been for 8 people. It just allows for more detailed mechanics than 4 mans can provide.
What's massive about XIV? Where's the RPG elements in XIV?
>massive
>8 player raids
lol
To be fair, XIV's biggest raid is 56 people. They made exactly one of its type and will never make it again, it even had a semi-permadeath mechanic where dying got you kicked out of the dungeon unless someone sacrificed an expensive item to revive you.
"an expensive item"
BAlet detected. The item is not expensive at all
Maybe they were talking about DRS? But even then the number of folks isn’t right
It was close to 1m gil when the raid released, that's a lot of money to ask someone to spend on a random that probably died from not paying attention.
>he doesn’t do stuff that has 100+ people on the screen
Skill issue
what are you morons talking about?
what crown? the most money earned?
there are tens of f2p mmos that are more popular than both wow and xiv combined
wow and xiv can barely hold 2mil active players
compare to csgo for example, which has 30m monthly
>b-but muh bots
wow is full of bots
>there are tens of f2p mmos that are more popular than both wow and xiv combined
prove it
>csgo
that isn't an mmo bud
> Final Fantasy will eventually take the crown?
Played FF14 to see what the fuss was about.
It's boring as frick.
Full of interesting idea, but the universe/story/lore/characters, everything is boring as hell.
Saw a video of some youtube gay talking about why MMOs are bad now and with what he wants improved he only talks about QOL features, which is the exact thing that killed MMOs. MMO players are fricking moronic and any developer listening to them will make a terrible game
The obsession with Engagement Metrics has had a much worse effect on MMOs and games in general.
These obvious reasons, and the fact that nobody has evolved the mmo formula. The live service derivatives are doing better these days, and require less care compared to an mmo. Consequently, all the whales and no lifers now have dropped mmos for games like genshin impact.
Me? I always hated mmos. I find them extremely tedious and I could never get into them. I also hate them for ruining the fun that I had with friends and random people playing counterstrike on internet cafes back in the day.
>all the whales and no lifers now have dropped mmos for games like genshin impact.
>be mmo junky
>playing archeage
>archeage has gotten less content in 10 years than genshin impact has in 3
seriously, the game has gotten about 12 zones, 6 dungeons and maybe 4 unique systems since launch. Everything else was them taking content out, then readding it as a 'new' thing or a 'seasonal' thing. Genshin gets multiple new events each version, multiple new locations, dramatically new systems, ridiculous amounts of ingame artwork, unique uis, and so on.
and as scammy as gacha is, you still are getting what you pay for. In mmos, its rng over rng over rng for side grades and oops cant let you actually have what you want because it might break game balance please jump through more hoops thanks for the cash. Pseduo-multiplayer games that are mainly single player do not have to balance for pvp at all which means you can jerk yourself off on your personal power fantasy as much as you are willing to pay for it where as mmos will still charge you the same amount of money but inevitably throw some fail state in your way to prevent you from actually being powerful because a whale one shotting the whole enemy raid makes that enemy raid quit the game and oops nobody is paying now time to shut down the game 🙁
i didnt use discord until 2016, that is when the game developers of the mmo i was playing literally made an in-game announcement that we were not allowd to mention donald trump in any capacity because 'ITS NOT VIDEOGAMES OKAY' and started chat banning people for wrongthink.
when some troony bans you and 'your money is stolen' insome shitty 50$ game, that sucks but you are only out 50$. when that same homosexual bans you from a mmo youve been playing for 4 years its atotally different kind of rage inducement so players get extremely careful about not breaking the insane rules jannies throw at them.
Im postponing MMOs until im financially stable and in a good place. Just need to work and study a while.... then maybe just MAYBE i'll get to reroll fresh WoW character and enjoy the shit out of playing it.
You won't have the time to play the shit out of an mmo til you're retired.
League MMO will unironically save MMOs
Nobody really has time to sit in an online world just chatting anymore, unless they’re no lifers like RuneScape players. The time investment is too much as well, especially since mostly everything has changed to give instant gratification instead of earning it.
Discord took the chatroom part of MMOs, while people just grew out of the others.
It's easy to explain
Service games fricking suck from a user perspective:
>Time commitment
You can play dozens of other games or really do anything else in all the time you spend playing a MMO. No one game is THAT good.
>Cost
Most MMOs adhere to a subscription model. After four months (at most) you've spent as much as a new game would cost. In addition to the base cost of the game.
>Community
The worst part of a MMO is the people you're playing it with. You're never going to come away from the experience having had a good interaction with others. That hasn't been possible for decades.
Censorship and threats of stealing the game from users drove the socialization onto discord; leaving the social game with no remaining purpose.
Allowing trannies to run wild also fricked societal trust.
And why shouldn't it? If you're with a guild or a clan of bros, talking in private is the only way to go. Public chat is ban-city, developers and publishers actively look for ways to make communication and the expression of thoughts and ideas a taboo. The only choice you have is to use separate platform. And you know, I bet everyone is playing games like that, it's probably why MMOs feel so socially barren.
Guild chat? Dumbass?
The game HAS that shit already!!!
No its because pvp went into the trash and MMOs focus on the PVE only. Also, a lot of people have already spent a decade playing another MMO so a game really needs to have fundamentals stand out and be fun. Fun pvp is replayability. Speedrunning a dungeon to collect tokens for a gear treadmill is not fun and will bleed players. It doesnt have to be super hardcore mechanics of loot all gear on death - gw2 held my interest for 2 or 3 years in WvW, but the skillset grew stale, and the competition for guilds competing in WvW did too. There also wasnt much choice for skills as everyone had the same weapons and you only got 3 skills to slot + elite.
To a degree 'meta' can be bullshit, or very applicable, depending on the game. Often it is the players faults for being too dumb to develop their own counterplay to the builds reddit has decided are 'meta'.
There's also the simple technology and infrastructure problem. Lag is real, and its hard for servers to truly have thousands of players on the same instance. Sure some games push it to 120v120 or so but not much more, except eve which just does time dilation.
Many games just have simple mechanics to appeal to a wide audience so the game suffers. GW1 may have been hard to balance but there was depth to it.
The monthly sub isnt too viable when there are buy2play alternatives.
very true. guild wars 2 forced a name rechange on my friend whos character was Donald Trumped. Fricking homosexual devs who cant write for shit
I dont really know any games that scratch the RvR itch that aren't MMOs with monthly subs. Mobas are all 5v5 dota clones wheres my 100v100 castle siege with casters and melee?
For now I suffer in foxhole
>wheres my 100v100 castle siege with casters and melee
Return of Reckoning. Thank me later.
Absolutely dead and it's always one sided, because homosexuals relog on other side as soon as someone take an inch. It's only interesting for some hardcore wonders who can solo multiple players, like this russian guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5RF6av6g44 I sadly can't do this, just like 99.9% of small playerbase, so I'm stuck with relogging homosexuals if I want to farm renown, which will result in better sets, that I will use to play with the same fricking homosexuals in hopes I will be able to get a city slot once upon a time
Because MMOs are just another live service. Current gaming is chock full of them. The only live services that can reasonably have players are seasonal ones. One game MMO boomers don't want to accept this and b***h and moan that they don't have their hardcore experience where you have to spend all your gaming time on this one game. MMOs aren't cheap to make and maintain and that style simply isn't selling.
>Over-Monetization Ruins the MMORPG Experience
This is the one for me. I've spent probably around 300-400 hours playing WoW but it would be a lot more if I didn't have to pay sub fees. Often times when I feel like going back to it I remember how expensive it is to play and I end up just playing some other RPG instead.
this
on one hand 15$ isn't much but on other I would feel compelled to play(as I pay) and this suck out the fun
The expense bothers me for two reasons, the first being that $180/mo would be three AAA games I could buy and keep forever or more likely numerous AA and indie games I could pick up and own. It's not a huge expense on its own but rather an opportunity cost, the feel that I'm not getting something to show for my dollar that I would pursuing something else.
The second is the ephemeral nature of MMOs, I really don't like spending money on something that will invariably change and go away and leave me with nothing. Even if the game is still running, a lot of devs change the fundamental aspect of it and leave you with a hollow experience. Or a game will shut down and now that time you spent playing it exists only as a memory.
On the flipside, because MMOs can provide a unique experience you can't find anywhere else, I don't think it's inherently a waste. It's the gaming equivalent of buying a ticket to go to a movie or concert, you can get something that approximates the experience but won't quite match seeing a band in person.
My best memories from MMOs (EQ, WoW, FF11, FF14, Wildstar, Rift) was the leveling and having no idea where to go and how things worked.
I wonder if all those players who got their wish and now have an invisible hand leading them through everything until the fabled endgame is feeling any sort of fullfilment.
Whoever started the concept of "Endgame" needs to be publically executed. Any game that focuses on it invariably ignores the actual game before the endgame, the thing every player will go through no matter what they're interested in.
>Whoever started the concept of "Endgame" needs to be publically executed.
Endgame was fine, the problem is when it became the focus and people optimizing everything about it and screeching the loudest on public forums thus having the companies believe people want the sweat lord content only. Enjoying the journey not the destination should be the focus and where most of the quality is because majority of the players are here and not at endgame which only keeps the sweat lords and the truly autistic or the dude bro gaymers that skip everything. In all my years of playing MMOs since EverQuest days I have been on both sides of extreme with endgame and just being a casual leveler/rper (Not ERP, that shit is fricked). People that just enjoy the game lose interest when sweat lords screech at casuals when they are not playing it right on easy as frick content or irrelevant content to begin with. There is nothing wrong with true endgame, the really hard content having a big learning curve, because a very small minority cleared it anyways just don't make the damn focus and make it some side content that you could potentially do if you git gud. E-celeb homosexualry exacerbated that and it became 100 times worse thus accelerating their life cycles. I could go on about the microtransaction hell that crept up on the genre that helped kill MMOs, but that is a whole different can of worms.
Endgame only gays are legitimately the worst type of players, almost as bad as the open world pvp folks.
>ff
>wild star
>rift
so the trash era of mmos ?
In order to make enough money to justify an MMO to investors, you inherently need to sell MMOs to people who don't fricking like them. This means class homogenity, simplification, making single-player a 'valid' choice, stripping out all elements of co-dependence, and important community elements that make the concept valuable. For example:
>I don't WANT to spend 20 minutes gathering a party
Became justification to make a robot gather you anonymous strangers you'll never say a word to, rather than motivation to build a social network - friends you could ask for help.
Suddenly all the time investment that was there to create a sense of adventure and scarcity gets stripped out, so only the skinner-box element (which was always there) remained.
It's not as if profitable older-style MMOs are impossible either, they just aren't profitable enough and don't have the capacity to pretend they can grow forever. Publicly traded companies are in the business of selling themselves, not making good products. It fricking sucks.
>rather than motivation to build a social network
Nobody who's capable of "building a social network" is playing fricking MMOs you moron
I did and a part of me died when auto lfg was added
mmos died because they were always shit games but online play isn't a novelty anymore
mmo devs seem to think infinite grind is engaging gameplay
MMOs died because MMO fans are moronic and want features in their game that kill it in the long run
Current year people don't have the attention span to play games that require time investments. If a game requires even a sligh semblance of effort, they will shid and piss and cry to the devs that everything needs to be nerfed and simplified because they already work 3 jobs, have 5 children and seven grandchildren, so they clearly don't have time for video games (yet they still want to """play""" one", or more like, have it play itself).
Also, MMORPGs are social games, socialising is a fundamental thing that they are built upon. Unfortunately, people who want to play them these days don't want to socialise. They will look for ways to never join groups and always play alone, therefore turning a game which is supposed to be social into almost a single player experience. I believe Discord was a massive blow to MMORPGs being social, because the socialization aspect has been moved entirely there. Ingame guild chats are dead, because everyone talks in Discord. World/trade chats are dead, because everyone just posts their trades in Discord. If you want to join a guild, you are required to join a Discord, where you will inevitably have people circlejerking each other and new people will usually get ignored if they want to ask some questions.
Other than that, elitism. Nobody wants to play with someone who is learning the game. Nobody wants to learn in general. If you go to a dungeon in a group, you are REQUIRED to watch 5 different videos about the mechanics, otherwise people will just leave at the first sign of failure. Even during fresh game releases, nobody wants to learn the game THROUGH THE GAME. Everyone uses outside sources and expects everyone else to do the same. Because people want to run quick dungeons for their daily/weekly/etc. quests, and they're forced to do it in a group, because they would 100% go solo otherwise if they could.
Honestly the death of MMOs is only a small part developer's fault, because player mentality is what's to blame the most.
>Honestly the death of MMOs is only a small part developer's fault
Nah it's half and half. After WoW's success the MMO industry was complete garbage with nothing but shitty wowclones. Nobody dares to try something different and every single MMO tried to be the "wowkiller", and this is absolutely the developer's fault. What we need is A or AA sized MMOs, not AAA investments of millions of dollars that can't stay afloat unless they have a million subscribers. I want a comfy MMO with a smaller map that can only house 2000 players, but the map being small means you're constantly seeing 2-3 players in every corner.
If you have a smaller studio making a smaller size MMO (because we know that AAA giants won't ever settle on a small project), then another problem arises, which is marketing. A smaller studio simply does not have the means to market the game so much to attract enough people to keep those servers populated. They'd have to pester big streamers somehow to get to play their game, but then another problem arises - with streamers come the lowest common denominator, who will not only not play your game long term, but also make servers be anything but comfy.
Honestly there is no winning.
NTA
>then another problem arises, which is marketing. A smaller studio simply does not have the means to market the game so much
I was going to argue that they didn't need as many players and that the best way to get players is to have something unique. Not a rehash with a texture swap.
But
>Honestly there is no winning.
...because persistent world with players who have other stuff to do in their life could never last.
Game need to be player centric, not server centric, nor even "clan centric" because even putting clan in competition for number one will inevitably turn clans into Ship of Theseus, losing all meaning, even as social experience.
But player centric mean satisfying the player, and making the game give the targeted experience regardless of how long they've played.
Isn't that like Albion Online? I like their system but I enjoyed it for a bit.
>Current year people don't have the attention span to play games that require time investments.
While that's true, MMO where low effort grind built to make any mechanic last far more than it should.
You'd brainwash people to think grinding=skills-locket gameplay but the truth is that the entire game was conceived to make you WASTE TIME so you pay the subscription, in addition of encouraging SUNKEN COST fallacy.
>MMORPGs are social games
Meh, beside that they were indeed glorified chatbox, the "RPG" part was what was supposed to bring individuality to player was constantly toned down so no one could break the game with unpopular meta.
Discord is just more optimized to play several game at once with people you actually like.
>Other than that, elitism. Nobody wants to play with someone who is learning the game. Nobody wants to learn in general.
Say you, I personally love playing with new players who also want a good time.
What lead to "elitism" is the grind and powerlevelling that result from most subscription/monetization system. They want long time player to feel superior & compete with others and to feel like every dungeon count because it's slow as frick.
>Honestly the death of MMOs is only a small part developer's fault, because player mentality is what's to blame the most.
It's 80% the developers fault because the player mentality is a result of what they sowed.
ACTUAL good game are full of things we, in general, have brainwashed player to think are "bad", like not gating players access to mechanic behind 50hours of grind.
>Current year people don't have the attention span to play games that require time investments
This isn't even remotely true considering every normalgay lives on FIFA, CoD or Destiny.
You're not understanding what anon means. Those games don't require a massive time investment as in there isn't a long learning curve, you can pick up most of these games in like 5 minutes.
MMOs take a long time before they get going, for some it can be a few hours.
Games like FIFA, CoD, and Destiny are more arcadey because they deliver their core gameplay experience in very brief play sessions.
To get to that same experience in an MMO you need hours of engaging with the world and all the social mechanics because that's the experience of the game. By design MMOs filter out anyone looking for a quick arcade style experience.
>By design MMOs filter out anyone looking for a quick arcade style experience.
Dude, they filter out people wanting a 100 hour RPG experience too. MMOs passed the "2nd job" point a long time ago and now you have to live them like a shut-in NEET so as not to get kicked from your guild because you're not keeping pace with the loot grind.
If you try and play them "casually" as in only 3-4 hours a night after work, you'll probably not achieve all the goals set out before the next expansion which further limits the groups you can be part of.
It's no wonder WoW evolved to a single player experience because they refined the raids and end game content so hard that only the shut-ins would stay subscribed. And they did that to maximise subscription revenue over a healthy game/life balance.
Engagement Metrics, FOMO, Microtransactions, Toxic Convenience, and "The game doesn't start until level cap" are the big black eyes on the current state of MMOs I think.
>dying
WoW and its clones are not mmos. The genre died a long time ago.
This, WoW and its clones are basically single player experiences. The real problem are not microtransactions, toxic community, not even metagaming. The problem is that there is no originality and WoW clones are basically made for people to play alone.
You can see the best example for this: Star Wars Galaxies and Tor(tanic)
Star Wars Galaxies was made to make to communicate with other players.
>Want to level up? You basically now have to choose between 32 professions, you can even play the game without killing anything, be an chef, a doctor, an architect, a droid engineer, whatever you like.
>Want an armor? Ask a player armorsmith to make one for you.
>Want a weapon? Ask a player weaponsmith to make one for you.
>You want a better weapon? Find or buy better materials from other players for the weaponsmith to create you a better weapon.
>Want to be able to communicate in the same lenguage with a player from another species? Find a player who could teach you how to understand that lenguage.
>Want a buff? Ask a player doctor to buff you.
>Want to heal your "fatigue"? Ask a player musician to play a tune.
>Want to learn a profession? Basically leveling up your character? Ask another player with a mastery in your profession to teach you.
>Want to play with friends? Just go ahead, do whatever you want.
But then, in Tortanic...
>Want to play with friends? You 2 have to choose the exact same character class or you can't play together during the "story". And if you play together with different classes one of you will not progress in the game. Or you could wait to meet eachother basically every 10 levels to make a raid together.
>Want to go to that planet? Lol, you can't until the story tells you to travel there.
>Did you travel there? BANNED (this happend in the early days with many players)
>Want a weapon or armor? just loot enemies.
>Want to level up? just click on numbers.
>Want to actually talk with people? LOL, just talk to your npc companions.
MMO thrived when internet was still new, if you wanted to meet people online that was one way to do it, now everyone just use instagram.
MMO combat is just fricking boring simple as. PSO2 is the only one that felt really fun and somewhat skill-based instead of rotation autism, along with fun boss fights
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>somewhat skill-based instead of rotation autism
Don't call it "skill based", you just want simple but responsive dodge and counter combat instead of spinning plates and micromanagement
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG?
*wrong pic
Soul was put into it.
the soul was gone after 2.0 version
They're all designed to hook you with simple manipulative 'number go up' grinds and casino mechanics instead of providing fun moment to moment gameplay. They're targeting players with addictive personality disorders instead of functioning human beings. Devs need to stop making live-service 'forever games' with dogshit gameplay and aggressive monetization, those only filter regular people preventing the genre from growing.
MMOs need a more conventional business model which allows for more condensed content. They need an ending so they can have sequels and be sold like a regular game instead of going apeshit with all kinds of F2P shenanigans. Just a simple price on the box, a couple of expansions and then a new game.
>directly linking the article
times sure have changed
Gacha fulfill daily log-in chore ProgressQuest appetite.
Discord and Twitter fulfill Social Media appetite.
Nobody has the patience to put up with all the bullshit involved in an MMORPG anymore, between developers being gaslighting shits to players being barely-trained tards needing constant wrangling.
MMORPGs reached the end of their natural lifespan.
MMO always had poor gameplay, with only the simplest mechanics so it can work on any servers.
It was ok because it was the average back then.
The only selling point was having lot of players and this came with limitation because they need to "erase player skills" to keep a meta from breaking the game.
It worked for a while because you could brainwash the mainstream into playing Le popular MMO to validate themselves, pretending its great to justify the sunken cost in a game tailored to waste their time grinding.
Nowadays even the mainstream can tell how limited the gameplay is, MMO are in competition with SP games that have top-notch physics, animation and gameplay that are difficult for MP game, let alone persistent MMO.
And the MP games offer everything MMO had without the subscription and even F2P at least give you a way to "skip the grind".
Everquest will always be peak MMO to me.
No sense of adventure and exploration and community. Which is what gave rise to MMOs in the first place
Playerbase aren't people looking for fun experiences but deranged buttholes who want to "win" in a virtual world because their irl sucks
Uninspired settings and themes. It's just the same flavor a medieval fantasy or sci-fi fantasy.
MMOs always seemed like a cool idea, pretty much terribly realised.
I think what people want is pen and paper RPGs, in the virtual format, and on a massive scale. They want interactive storytelling where they can actually do things to impact a narrative. Not just dungeon grinding, and hanging out in a glorified chatroom.
Minecraft roleplay gives people the dream of the MMO better than MMOs ever did.
Honestly Larian and Critical Role of all fricks have the option to revive MMORPGs and bring them to the next era.
I don't get what's so difficult about paying actual live service game masters. Have 1 GM per 50 people. Build a sandbox world with bare bones NPCs and then populate the world with players. GMs job is to curate a story. They get a script they need to loosely follow and they have to facilitate ingame events. Make sure your player base gets basic RP training and make your GMs encourage role-playing.
I'd say Critical Role and Larian combined could make it happen.
Monetise it by renting out plots of land for reallife cash and selling cosmetics.
I think its quite simple really, gamers changed. Back in the day, just the concept of getting to know people online, playing with them together in groups and exploring the world was good enough.
Nowadays you have all these minmaxxing morons, morons playing with guides and with the wiki open at all times.
Powerleveling and what not. Like back in the day, you would've been seen as someone who ruins his own game experience.
Also all the quality of life "improvements" like dungeon finder. The first time I saw that shit, I was like wut? You're meant to talk to people make connections etc.
Nowadays you don't talk with people at all. You do everything with a quality of life feature and finish the entire game like its a singleplayer game.
Back in the day I thought MMOs will be the future of gaming. Where you can do all kinds of insane complex things in the gameworld. Something like Total War battles with strict regiments, with massive battles between player led factions, where players build their own cities, with complete new factions that surpass the Horde and Alliance. With really complex politics, something like a player-led industry and economy.
Like Stormwinds walls deteriorating, if there are no players getting the necessary resources to maintain a wall. Instead its all just dungeon crawling.
People use guides because developers make shit games that require them. I can't count how many games I get softlocked in because I don't use a guide.
Literally never happened to me. I did get softlocked in games due to bugs and similar but never through regular progression.
Unless you just want everything, without trial and error but then you're just a scrub.
>Back in the day I thought MMOs will be the future of gaming. Where you can do all kinds of insane complex things in the gameworld. Something like Total War battles with strict regiments, with massive battles between player led factions, where players build their own cities, with complete new factions that surpass the Horde and Alliance. With really complex politics, something like a player-led industry and economy.
>Like Stormwinds walls deteriorating, if there are no players getting the necessary resources to maintain a wall. Instead its all just dungeon crawling.
You think the endgame of video games should be menial chores and jobs? Also literally all of those things would be immediately taken over by bots.
You can make it fun. Just look at farming simulator or similar. Make it a complex management game and you will have people that get interested in that.
Even if MMOs were good who wants to play this shit in your 30s instead of teens with unlimited time? We're all too old for this shit, single player games for life.
What I hate the most about modern MMO communities.
Back in the day:
>join the guild as xXxDarkShadowxXx
>hey Shadow, lets group up
Today:
>join the guild as xXxDarkShadowxXx
>hey DarkShadow, what do we call you
>you can call me Shadow
>nono, but what's your real name, here in our guild we call each other by our real names
Why the FRICK did we move away from using nicknames? I hate this fricking shit so much.
Blame Zuckerberg.
Ha, I feel that.
Say something like your name is Danel or Tyrone or something. Somebody will get racist and you can report the entire guild for racism.
>people still talk in guild chat
lol this is dated to 5 years ago
>today
>try to join guild
>you can't because it's all discord cliques and they don't want randoms
>on the off chance there is a public guild
>GO TO DISCORD
>go to their discord
>fill out personal data
>fill out personality quiz
>treats guild members like an interview
>you have to be available during these days and these hours
>you have to be xyx
>even if you do get in they will treat you like a pleb while they circlejerk their irl friends
>etc
>etc
fricking this holy shit this is the reason I stop playing XIV, every fricking guild was like this frick that game and frick this people.
>stop playing XIV
the problem is universal, people dont talk on in-game chat anymore because you can get banned if someone reports you for saying Black person. So all chat is moved out of the game
No one uses the term 'nickname' any more because nick can sound like nig.
This reminds me of the fact that in the last 2 MMOs I played I couldn't use my 15 years old online handle because it has "Knight" in it, which triggers the "nig" word filter.
bullshit
Which ones?
Black Desert Online and Omega Strikers. Last one wasn't actually a MMO, just an online game (which doesn't even have a chat to avoid toxicity), I misremembered.
>Anyways, Need For Speed is an awesome game
>Thanks for having me, nig-
I've never seen anyone ask to call people with their real names on any online game, what the frick are you smoking
I don't see that at all. Everyone knows me by my screen name, even the few people who know my real name prefer to use my avatar's name over it. Even in real life, a few people still slip up and call me by my screen name.
I do get a few people asking what my real name is, and I don't mind giving out my surname, but I've yet to see someone online who actually uses it.
Might as well post here
What's the closest MMO to SWTOR except newer?
I really appreciate the cutscenes, actual main story and even dialogue choices of SWTOR but want something a little different than star wars.
communities are dead and all thats left is erp and raidlogging
Why is he stealing that keyboard?
People have more options nowadays, PC gaming used to be a lot more limited in the early to mid 00s.
They're dying because they're instanced PvE slop for carebears. Need MMOs with true open world and mass pvp events like castle sieges and territory control.
The famous alchemical "Negrido phase" of a gamer. If you become black, the MMO you're playing is in its death throes.
It's simple - it's because they are not fun and the little amount of players that play them make it out to be something so serious it kills what little enjoyment you might have. I don't know why 50 threads per day are made on this topic and everybody glosses over the fact that MMOs are barely games at this point. You get a character and grind him for 50 hours until you get to "the good part" but it never comes, beacuse it isn't there. And then you come to a point where you simply cannot play the game by yourself anymore, and if you want to get into even the smallest guilds you need to go through a job interview and be treated like an employee. I have no idea why anyone would think this would be an enjoyable experience for a large amount of players.
tl;dr MMos are jobs and nobody wants to pay to work
if you can play a game for 50 hours alone, it has failed as an mmo and you have missed the point.
I find pretty much all of those true, although I don't really spend any money on the non-subscription parts of MMOs. A living, breathing world requires you to spend your most precious resource, time, which is what makes a game fulfilling. That's pretty hard to give as an adult, enjoying the game means you're going to have to take time out of doing the important real life stuff you should do instead, and if you do pursue an MMO it usually takes up most of your free time and you're not spending any of it on your other hobbies.
I use EVE Online as an example, I spent untold amounts of time building up a corporation and an alliance with other players, managing our equipment, scheduling events, finding fleet commanders, and while it was a lot of fun it was basically all I did for those couple of years. I'd answer EVE messages at work, I'd write spreadsheets on my lunch hour, I'd run fleets when I got home, and I never had time for playing the other games I liked or working on my programming as a hobby. When I finally stopped playing, I had a huge backlog of other games I wanted to play through but never had the time.
You can't really play the game in a significant capacity casually, so much of it demands a time investment and the entire game world relies on it to make it meaningful. For instance, there's no dungeon finder or even any real dungeons in the sense of other MMOs, so grouping up as a fleet is something that's done entirely through chat channels. Even something as simple as traveling from one end of the world to the other can take 20-30 minutes, so you have to plan out where you want your character to be at what time and your ability to do things spontaneously with others is limited. Many times I would talk with friends about doing things and we'd come to the conclusion it wasn't worth spending the time to meet up in game and then returning to our respective sectors so we just wouldn't bother.
The reason why I think PSO1 is still loved to this day is because it satisfies most of these points that the robot makes.
Imo,
>A Fulfilling MMORPG Experience Requires a Huge Time Investment
This is true, because all the games want these days is you to get to endgame and grind boring shit over and over vs something like runescape, classic wow and ffxiv where you just log in and play as much as you like. Playing itself should be fun versus getting in the dreadmill of garbage, if just rolling a new character and playing casually for 20 hours isn't fun, your MMO is garbage. In wow classic lvls 1 - 30 is fricking fun, I level a character once a year just for fun, in FFXIV you can roll a new character and the leveling is fun and in runescape, well it's basically glorified cookie clicker. Endgame autism ruined MMO games.
>Over-Monetization Ruins the MMORPG Experience
This is what actually ruined MMOs, if it's pay2win, I refuse to play, and so should you, but it generates so much money that it doesn't even matter. But hey, if playing is fun, whatever, but almost all of these games are fricking spredsheet endgame simulators. Or worse, gacha games.
>MMORPG Metas Force Players' Hands
If all content is tryhard endgame content, of course people will optimize the fun out of the game since player expression and actual RPG mechanics are just a fricking obstacle for enjoyment.
I hate how MMO players simp for giant corporations and put all the blame on MMOs being bad on the players. It's never the developers fault for making another shitty copypaste slop with 0 innovation or game design, it's always the player's fault somehow.
It's both player and dev's fault, honestly
A lot of reasons you can’t have huge complex skill trees is because you have homosexual players that optimize the fun out of game and will kick people out of stuff if they are like 0.01% weaker than other builds.
The differences between builds can oftejn be more like 30-50%, and that can make the difference between clearing or not
Then why not just tune the content around the weaker builds so everyone can have fun?
Buff the weaker stuff to be inline with the stronger stuff then
That's what they did and now people are b***hing about homogenization
People legitimately don’t know what that word means, it’s like saying all ffxiv jobs play the same
>it’s like saying all ffxiv jobs play the same
They do
moron
Nah, he's completely right, jobs have no identity. The devs themselves have said that they want groups to pick by players, rather than jobs. Which is why damage is the only defining factor of jobs.
Ah yes blm plays just like summoner and red mage, fricking moron
BLM is the one exception that every points to, probably because it's Yoshi's main job. And what does BLM bring with it's unique playstyle, more damage. The developers have intentionally neutered the game over time to reinforce their player over job mindset. Which is why everything always comes down to damage. It's easier to increase the potency of lacking jobs than it is to design content around jobs with unique utilities
You’re a clown if you think summoner and red mage play anything the same. Don’t reply to me with your moronic takes ever again.
They do. Same 2min burst damage, same support skills.
Just because you press 111 on one job and 123 on another doesnt make them different. They are not unique in any way and in the end, when searching for a mage, you dont care which one you get.
They do the same thing, they follow a linear damage pattern until they finally arrive at their massive burst phase, blow their load and do it all over again.
Only the biggest morons actually think that pressing 2 instead of 1 makes a job play differently.
Ive seen it happen to an MMO i played. People asked for character balancing, so they just made every weaker character fit the exact same mold of the strongest character
they made the chatbox obsolete in the glorified chatbox genre
>Community is gone because of zoomers.
>Community further gone because of matchmaking
>Everyone metagames which causes the game to be a job and not fun
I quit FFXIV once city channels, FC chat, and party chat became barren ghost towns. I feel like the game still had some community soul into heavensward and then it just disappeared. What's the point in playing an online game if everyone just runs past each other and doesn't want to interact once in a while?
Dscord is literally just a voice chat that most MMOs don't have. Typing in the chat takes too much time. Text chat in general is a terrible way to communicate.
>I want to join a guild to be a freeloader. The guild has to play around my schedule. I only care about the benefits.
You probably don't have friends IRL either.
1. They're not fun because of raid spergs.
It's not a grand adventure it's a fricking part time job.
I dont want to pay for a sub service because then i feel compelled to play and get my moneys worth.
I dont have the time to grind an account to max level just to start participating in the new content since all MMO's ONLY make new content for lategame players after a certain point.
no friends to join me. having friends in a MMO is a completely different experience. social interaction is key so im not just gonna hot queue for raids and flip a coin with randoms then leave all day.
Too many MMO's focus on PvE and Raids rather than just having various minigames or side gigs to busy yourself with.
The thing I liked about MMO's was the discovery aspect and no one knowing the world, items or builds. These days a bunch of alpha testers and data miners release an entire wiki on day 1 of a new MMO with the entire map and secrets, most optimised progression paths, and it's all about speed-running to max level. Where's the fun and enjoyment gone?
People don't like video games for their own sake anymore. They want to be constantly winning something which means checking youtube for the latest meta and copying it.
you could always play Dofus because there's an extraordinary lack of English Dofus guides and wikis.
Dofus is incredibly cheap for it's sub-fee but yeah I feel you.
MMO designs (in theory) should have plenty of content from lv1 to max level to keep people occupied without worrying about reaching late-game content.
I made online friends in Dofus!
Dofus doesn't have much side-games tbh. I like playing the market, my friend likes breeding, another likes maging. "Fishing" is another friend's thing but it's just running around, clicking spots and a fishing 3-second animation. But he likes running around and collecting fish.
Don't look at a wiki then you autist. The game is about grinding raids anyway, why do you care if other people know the optimal gear for it or not?
NTA but go frick yourself you homosexual. The whole point of MMOs was to explore a massive world alongside other people doing the same. me "not looking at wikis" isn't going to stop everyone else from doing it and then refusing to let me join them in dungeon runs because i haven't already memorized the shortest route through the dungeon (yes i've actually had this happen to me while tanking).
It should be a bannable offense then.
Honestly their was some really obtuse stuff that you had to look up, I remember in mabinogi you had to look up a traveling ex paladin and the places he showed up where random and time locked
>try to join minmaxing autists
>complain when they want you to be a minmaxing autist
Find better friends.
>just don't play with minmaxing autists
lol, you won't be able to fill out a 5 man party with requirements like that.
Honestly I play FF XIV casually and always get this experience. Seeing newbie tanks overpull and wipe the party on The Aurum Vale, or inexperienced healers failing to keep the party alive in The Burn, or greedy DPS getting blown up in The Minstrel's Ballad.
I just play genshin impact for that feeling again, love me some exploring vidya
It all boils down to bad game design. You need a bunch of great developpers (hard) and investment from investors that arent looking for quickest roi (impossible).
Investors have been moronic since the beginning. EA thought Ultima Online would flop and only gave it pocket change as funding, only to find out after the fact that it would become one of their most popular and profitable games ever at the time.
I still play it a little.
I would still play WoW if it was F2P. Same with FFXIV.
A monthly sub is just unacceptable in the current year, it’s an artefact of a bygone era. The fact that both of these games have extensive cash shops that often feature stuff that should be obtainable ingame doesn’t help. There’s just no way I can pay that money and not feel like a sucker when they already charge for the expansions and when you look at the countless games that also constantly upgrade while being F2P or one time purchase titles. Not to mention in this current landscape I can grab great indie titles for like 10 bucks or less and you want 15 for MMO slop? Seriously, monetisation is the biggest killer of MMOs.
Yeah sure there are other factors like the rise of mobas or battle royales scratching many of the same itches MMOs do without the huge time investment, but really it’s the money.
Dofus is like $5 and WoW is $15 per month (both can be reduced with better over-time deals)
There's nothing wrong with a subscription based MMORPG. It's arguably the best way to monetize a well-done live-service game and holds back on P2W monetization and content/playerbase-splitting monetization.
The biggest killer of MMOs is the consumer and what they want. Typically short, quick games of gratification. However MMOs still have a niche catering to people who value persistent progression and long-term achievement.
I don’t really care about it holding back P2W, that’s the bare minimum. Not to mention these game are still full off pay to save time shit, creating conflicting incentives for the developer. Sure in a perfect world you’d just have the sub and nothing else, but since that is never happening the sub fee is basically a alap in the face.
Also I think you very much underestimate the barrier such a fee creates by default, regardless of the actual amount. Imagine trying to sell some zoomer who grew up on Roblox, Fortnite or Minecraft on the genre.
>okay you need to buy the game and then keep paying just to play because uuuuh that’s just how it is okay???
This shit doesn’t fly in the current market.
Dofus' beginner area is F2P
and a 7-day sub costs like $2
and you can buy in-game premium currency with in-game gold to afford a sub like Eve
And I can play Fortnite forever without paying anything. You’re missing the point. The cost is irrelevant if there’s no value proposition in the first place.
>my perfect unrealistic monetization method is good
>your perfect unrealistic monetization method is bad
Companies are going to monetize everything they can whether you like it or not. Muh F2P always turns into either pay to win, hideous cash shop cosmetics that completely ruin the aesthetics of the game and/or make all the real gameplay equipment look mediocre, or both.
If we're going to talk about what the ideal monetization method that an ethical company would use is, the answer is a subscription and nothing else.
F2P with cash shop isn’t unrealistic, it’s the most popular model for online games right now. And I would very much prefer that because there at least you get exactly that you pay for and can ignore everything else.
Playing a good game is a higher priority for me than playing a free game.
Well right now you’re getting neither.
Ironically enough, what gets you unimaginable insane profit is when you build things for the sake of it (aka the sooovl) not when you are building it for maximum monetization profits in mind. But I'd guess thats about impossible to get a big budget from investors requipred to pump out a huge mmo with that srot of mindset these days. Its all business foremost, and players end up trying to pick the lesser shit out of a list of shits to choose from.
I'd say building things for the sake of it either gets you insane profits or frickall while minmaxing for profits is more reliable, and corpos are all big on minimizing risks.
I hate how it works but at the same time I can't necessarily blame the investors for investing the way they do.
The investors who have the money care about money, if they didn't then they wouldn't have that kind of money to throw at other people in the first place. Even if they wanted to fund hidden superstar developers, they can't make that judgement because they're interested in money rather than videogames. You need to be a huge videogame fan and probably fairly creative to be able to judge which developers have the right ingredients to develop something new and great.
I quit FFXIV and I'm playing FFXI on a private server and I'm having way more fun than I ever had in FFXIV. Modern MMORPGs suck ass.
#1 reason why MMO's are dying: trannies
i just want a multiplayer game where actually people talk
you wouldn't talk in real life lmao
or do you mean text chat
MMOs just feel small with all the supplemental addons, websites, and datamining to spoil shit. Before a new MMO starts people have guides from closed betas and server stress test weekends and everyone is fixated on flying through the game to max level
Yeah fricking Cyberpunk and BG3 feel more massive than MMOs and they're single player games
They should just make the world in MMOs bigger to compensate. Why does it take 20mins to run between cities? It should take an hour or two at least. Maybe put in some pit stop towns along the way.
Then players will b***h that the developers aren't "respecting their time".
Yup, New World didn't launch with mounts and you were expected to run around on foot and people called it padding cause in their mind not being efficient in questing/leveling is wasting time. They don't want to play a big social MMO, they want a grind game and start doing max-level content ASAP
New World is the exception where the players were right to b***h about travelling. PvP was entirely optional, the developers sold an item that allowed you to fast travel in a cash shop and the questing was absolute garbage. New World's dog shit travel design was left from when the game was still faction based, PvP MMO, just like the old storage system.
if you're going to make the world bigger than it has to be filled with content to justify it instead of simply "lol world bigger to pad time no no reason"
MMOs fail because devs consistently keep trying to appeal to minority groups within the playerbase (cash shop whales, hardcore PVPers/raiders) until they completely alienate the actual majority of the playerbase and it ceases to be an MMO. The average player isn't interesting a 50$ horde or a raid boss they absolutely will never be able to kill, if that's all you're offering them they're just going to leave.
The time investment shit is a fricking meme, you can get anyone to sell their soul to a game and play it all day if it's actually good which MMOs aren't anymore. Any complaint along the lines of "I don't want to invest time in this game" should be interpreted as "this game isn't good enough for me to invest time into it"
The whole p2w argument is such a fricking moronic meme at this point. People crying over every new game coming out being p2w.
If there is no open world pvp, and you're not forced to compete with anyone, why the FRICK do you even care if people are able to spend $50k to be ahead of you? Let them fund the fricking game, they will stay in their whale cliques anyway and you will literally never interact with them. You do your own thing. The problem only starts if the game limits a f2p character and actually forces it to spend money to progress. Otherwise, let homosexuals spend tens of thousands of dollars on it and skip all content, pretty much paying money to not play the game. Who gives a shit.
Because like I said it creates conflicting incentives for the developer. Why make a unique, enjoyable, replayable progress experience when there’s a monetary incentive to make it just tedious enough so players pay to skip it?
If a game is pay to win, the developers aren't incentivized to make the game fun to play, they're incentivized to make it as tedious as possible so you'd buy the cash shop items to get rid of the tedium.
Wikis and the spread of information killed MMOS. Back in the golden era of FFXi we had players on Xbox 360 and PS2 mingling with players on the PC. Not everyone had access to information or maps so grouping up was mandatory. Helping people was a big thing, people would spend more time aiding others then helping themselves. I knew players who would sit in a lower level zone where players were weak (valkurm dunes) and help raise the dead and clear dangerous mobs just to make the experience alittle better. Over time these lower level experiences that bring ingame players together get replaced with troony single player replacements (trusts). XIV is a great example of how idiotic the frickhead yoshitpiss is. Coddling new players through dungeons with NPCS then throwing them into 8 player trials and 24 man alliance roulette is stupid as shit. I blame the devs.
MMOs are dying because they aren't MMOs anymore, they're just lobby based games at this point. And despite being games based entirely around instanced content, the content they put out are no better than content from 20yrs ago
I just want to kill monsters in the open word that could possibly kill me. No game offers any more
MMOs must be "a world to exist in". They must not involve players with "doing things", "encounters" (i.e. tuned fights designed for a strict number of people), "tasks", "fairness", and "balance". MMOs should be world simulations. The most important part of an MMO is the videomaker and forum communities.
>MMOs should be world simulations
That's what MMOs were originally supposed to be, but then it turned out that you can make way more money with themepark MMOs.
This article may interest you:
https://www.raphkoster.com/2022/09/01/sandbox-vs-themepark/
MUDs were originally themeparks (scripted/no simulation), and increased simulation capability was seem as exciting and innovative.
>enough people
A total of 1000 active players is enough to be a critical mass. That equates to about 50-100 concurrent online at peak. 1000 subs at $10 a month is enough for a oneman basement project.
It can be. There are a handful of success stories.
>haven and hearth
>project gorgon
>even rpg.mo is still trucking along
>numerous private servers
>server hosting requires you to get a team if people who specializes in AWS or Azure.
I don't think that's necessary for a total playercount of 1000.
One big chokepoint is that anyone skilled enough to work solo on a project like this is probably already making money elsewhere. The next indie MMO sensation will come from a disaffected incel.
Sub 5k players for your MMO is not success that's a complete bomb. Good luck convincing any publisher let alone capital venture.
What do you need a publisher or VC for? 1000 subs paying $10 a month is enough. That's all a man needs.
MMOS wont sustain itself on $10000 a month lol
It absolutely will sustain one auteur.
10k can fund the livelihoods of 5-10 people depending on where they live. Much more than that if you count less white countries.
what about server costs
licensing
etc etc an lol no MMO team is only comprised of 10 people
Servers cost less than 1 employee's salary.
You're going to license jack shit for an indie game.
>indie
>MMO
Server cost for 100 peak concurrent players? A $50/mo VPS.
>Three man team
>$10,000 revenue
>$2500 for tax purposes
>Each person takes home ~$2500
>Requires bare minimum maintenance
>End of year whatever is left from $2500 taxes that wasn't used can be given as bonus between the three of you (probably another ~$3k each
It's not a huge amount of money, but it's livable. And 1k subs is more than easy enough to maintain. Realistic numbers would be 3-4k
But what if there aren't enough people that want that anymore?
Then I just need to wait for an indie developer to make an MMO for people like me.
MMOs by design can't be a indie project. Too many roles required and you can't be the jack of all trades. Even just server hosting requires you to get a team if people who specializes in AWS or Azure.
Unlike you I'm not looking for WoW that is made just for me.
Pic related is an MMO, does it look like it required a huge team of experts to make?
If your game doesn't have at least 10k active players logged into a single server it's not a MMO.
You mean pic related is not a MMO
There is currently no network middleware that is bolt on that allows you to make a MMO.
So no.
WoW was made by 20 people in 2004 and there wasn't any AWS.
It's doable, there's just no one with the money and passion for it to lead a group.
WoW was made with over 80+ in house staff and countless other network contractors globally.
That's fair. There's been a bunch of indie MMOs with a focus on recreating the old school feel but most have ended up with PKers cannibalizing their own community, or in Wildstar's case, the hyperfocus on difficult dungeons and endgame raiding filtered too many people. Albion and EVE still have the right idea on managing PKing.
I don't like PVP myself. To me the Runescape PVP model is the best one: PVP is limited only to certain areas. You can put more profitable things or shortcuts in PVP areas which incentivizes people to use it. The reason it's best is that the game doesn't force you to get ganked by homosexuals at any time, instead you're willingly entering a PVP area on your own accord if you go there.
Then the genre is dead and doesn't exist.
Based on what info? When was the last time we got an MMO that put the world and community first, over balance, convenience and monetisation?
Games like Mortal Online 2 and others like I think Embers Adrift and the like have ended up with a playerbase in only thousands, and all of those games promise all the stuff people complain new MMOs don't have. World PVP, PKing, no duty finder, forced interactions.
The problem is that those games are inherently shit. If they were PvE focused games with optional PvP, matchmaking and soloable, they'd still be shit. The game itself has to be good to attract an audience, not just have design philosophies that I like
This is true. Fricked up in implementation as corpos keep making copy-paste hamster on a wheel slops. And two, playerbase that eat this slop are pavloved into grinding minmax on rails mindset. And thus we got fansites and stupid streamers shitting everything up with "HOW TO GET THE THE BEST WEAPON AND THE QUICKEST WIN" crap.
Maybe, just maybe later down the line we get AI backed mmos that you can't minmax and exploit, and you're forced to adventure and explore things yourself. And maybe sometime soon some developper will be brave enough to implement a something fricking different. Look at New World launch it had something entirely different going at first. I can also add a few more mmo names that launched with massive numbers and hype and immediately dried off dead afterwards as the devs fricking immediately led the projects to the copyslop mmo way. Imagine for example someone makes an mmo where there is no visible damage or health numbers somehow. So your dpsmeter and minmaxxing and holy trinity is fricked out from the start. But nah ofcoruse we cant have anything new. Lets just pump out slop thats selling and earning us a profit within expected parameters.
I think it's human nature to drive toward efficiency. The developer must constantly push back. I think the MMO of the future should suffer from power anti-creep -- accomplishments and power get more difficult over time. This can be brute forced with a 5% hp buff to all monsters every year.
>Maybe, just maybe later down the line we get AI backed mmos that you can't minmax and exploit
You can do that with basic procedural generation and some clever game design.
Make the weather and environment and location and time of day/year and alignment of stars affect how strong certain items/elements/enemies are, what enemies spawn, and even what kind of items enemies drop. That way the strongest thing changes based on context, and it's almost impossible to give a guide about where to find something or how to do something with perfect efficiency.
This, but even more. Imagine theres no set way to progress anything apart from you need to train in it. No specific questline or zone and dungeon trail to follow. Thinking of something similar to lets say, what goes in Valheim, kind of. You need to get metals and for that you need to raid dungeons, that and that dungeon is found in a swamp. So apart from the general idea of knowing what to do, you don't have "the proper way" to do things to a degree. You have to do it yourself. So this, but on a huge scale with lot more detail. So you get unique adventures and loot based on your luck. I guess you'd also need to break the design of spend time>get rewarded to show it off somehow. Dopamine addict autists will kill themselves because they got 2 trolls to fight off against instead of the other guy who got 3 skeletons and went ahead with better rewards.
gear treadmill turned me off the last mmo i played
owo
What MMO is supposed to be
>vast, beautiful world that is fun to explore
>lots of things to discover
>constant player interaction
>guilds, fight over resources and castles
>hundreds or thousands of people present in the world at the same time, possibly interacting in one place
What MMOs currently are
>run circles in a city while waiting for matchmaking to group you with ~10 other people to do an instanced dungeon completely separated from the game's world
>the only interaction happening is furry erp in the chat
>pvp is either non-existent or limited to instanced arenas that might as well be a separate moba game
MMOs simply don't exist anymore. There's nothing massive about doing instanced raids with fewer people than a single team in FPS games like Battlefield.
The MMO community is too fragmented, back when everyone was forced to play together people begrudgingly did, but now that there's many different kinds of MMOs, people have spread out. So people that enjoy the "grind 20 hours a day in a party and you can grief others and be a huge butthole online" MMOs now don't have enough punching bags or people forced to talk to them, RPers and ERPers are in their own corner, sologay storygays are in their own corner. Even if a new Archage or Ultima Online of FF XI comes out, there's no guarantee you will ever get the casual and roleplaying and solo audience again. And there aren't enough hardcoregays for a large community, as shown by stuff like Wildstar.
MMOs have been replaced by GAAS. Why chain yourself to the WoW formula when you can make a gacha, idle game, or literally any other game design that's low effort compared to MMO development thats guaranteed to print money.
The "waaah no more freeform interaction" stuff makes me think of Dark Souls where all the "freeform interaction" people turned out to be griefers and they got angry when they were told to frick off.
MMOs themselves haven't changed much, it's the average player's attitude towards gaming as a whole
People used to play MMOs for fun escapism and roleplaying but nowadays everyone wants to "gain" something from gaming
last well-designed MMO was Archeage, and it went P2W like two weeks after release
also has been turned into garbage over the years
Archeage at launch was a gaming experience that I'm still trying to find a chance to relive to this day
It was something truly magical and it made me realize how shit online gaming had become over the years
yeah, it made me realize that it's not the issue of those companies being unable to make a good MMO, it's just that they don't want to
The alpha patch of archeage before any monetization had been put in was an absolute masterpiece and I don't know if any other mmo will ever live up to it.
Yes, I've played all bigger MMOs and pre-P2W Archeage was the best of them all by far, it was like a drug, a true living virtual world
I will never not be butthurt about what could've been
Osrs is just fine. We have a very inclusive community over at >>>/vg/ . We respect everybody's pronouns are are lgbtq+ friendly. Our most popular users are Trans and their great at the game!
Frick off not even OSRS's own playerbase wants to play the game. Everyone shits and pisses themselves when things aren't AFK or "mobile-friendly" (also just boils down to AFK)
1) Discord caused there to be no need for communicating outside of your little section. I can't tell you how many groups I've joined now-a-days where people don't talk. Just run towards the objective, kill, and leave.
2) The single-player experience in MMOs. Most shit can be solo'd now. Groups are only needed for designated areas and even then it leads into reason #3.
3) The Tinder version of matchmaking. All MMOs make it easy to form groups without interacting. You put your profile on the system and hope that someone picks you because you met some arbitrary goal like gearscore or achievements. If you need a group, just list it in MMOTinder and get people applying within minutes.
Except in the end it still boils down to
>how many people tolerate or even like that
New World cut all the modern amenities of modern MMOs and everyone fricking hated it and begged for a duty finder and faster travelling.
New World was garbage. It was yet another gear treadmill MMO with a non-threatening open-world and instanced group content. Stop tying to make it seem like the game tried to be different and people didn't like it. They turned their back on their original vision and didn't have enough time after the pivot to include all the bog basic shit of modern themepark MMOs, which why those features were slowly added over time
>a non-threatening open-world
this is the worst part of New World frankly
what a boring piece of shit
Yeah it is a frog in a pot situation. It's been added to so many games for so long people don't know what to do without them.
Look at Dragonflight. Removed the need for borrowed power which caused you to log in daily. People complained because there is nothing to do at max level. People just got so used to having to do stuff daily to upgrade something they didn't know what to do once it was removed.
I wouldn't be surprised if 11.0 brings the borrowed power systems back.
>discord
yall act like mirc wasnt a thing back then, also mmorpgs just have shit for chat boxes
MMOs were social media first, games second. We have other social media now so half of the appeal is gone.
>numpadless keyboard
Forgot the most important reason: for decades now MMOs have become more and more solo friendly
MMOs suck because there is no reason to socialize with other people. The games are loot corridors that you run through with faceless deaf-mutes you'll never interact with again. Older games forced you to interact to get anything done, which is why people pine for older versions of Warcraft, not because the game was inherently better - it was worse in almost every respect, but it was difficult to do anything by yourself.
I don't need two more reasons, but if I had to add more: A) Facebook/iPhones introduced idiots into the gaming medium and diminished quality for every single genre to exist; and B) games today try too hard to capture the lightning in a bottle that was EQ/Warcraft, copy-pasting whole structures without adding their own uniqueness to a game's creation. The only game that has deviated from this was EVE, which is still going, but few truly appreciate what it brings to the genre.
EVE's got a whole lot of flaws and will always be a niche game, but it does tick all the boxes of what makes a proper MMO. It will never have mass appeal because of it though, it's just too much of a timesink to really get involved with on a deep level.
Eve is mostly dead since Citadel update, because it's too safe and it's impossible to find fights which won't be completely one-sided any more. Sov null blue donuts are literally safer than high sec and populated with bots and people who play game exactly like bots.
Albion is the main MMO that fills that niche now, because its devs learned pretty good from where and how Eve ended up, and as a result of fixing those design flaws (mainly local chat listing players present on location) there are more random fights that you would know what to do with.
Ironically, Eve experimented with switching local off as well, and during that period it became alive again and there was metric frickton of pvp content everywhere. However, blue donuts botters and carebears started crying about how it's not fair, and they added local again. I guess they made their choice.
This always confused me, if pvpgays are huge shitters that run away from equal skill pvp, why are the pvegays called carebears and other shit? Why aren't pvpgays called out for being cowards and shitters?
new MMOs need as much content as WoW, FFXIV and OSRS or they're treated as DOA
obviously they'll never be able to do that
1. Internet in general gives too much meta-information and full guides/builds for everything is out within a week from release. There is barely any discovery as everything gets spoiled and if you don't play the most efficient way you are automatically outsider.
2. MMOs focus on endgame content so much that everything at low-levels are just boring repetitive filler. Powercreep as well usually makes earlier endgame content useless.
3. Community often is outside of the game when it comes to socializing. These are usually the spooky Discord and subreddit. Developers communicate through those + Twitter most often instead of their own game site when it comes to bugs, issues, and other small stuff. Games barely have forums themselves. People are anti-social as MMOs aren't the magical "other world" anymore when you can communicate with people through any multiplayer game and social media.
Those are my reason. I just play OSRS Group Ironman with friends tho, because it doesn't hurt "too much" from above stuff. I'm autistic grinder tho.
>Internet in general gives too much meta-information and full guides/builds for everything is out within a week from release.
This has happened even way back then , especially when the game is delayed from Korea
Yeah but Youtube wasn't as big of a thing with multiple channels dedicated on raid runs etc. within a day. Of course people discussed the games but information speed wasn't as fast and not REGUIRED by casual players who were discovering how raids work together and planning it in-game.
Now you get linked a video and told to follow it.
>Games lack diversity in what you do and over focus on combat alone
>Theme park style world creates a lack of consistency and you just go from attraction to attraction with little else to experience or do, lack of interactivity or exploration to encourage doing anything off the beaten path
>Quests are usually "Go here, Kill X" or "Go here, fetch that" and aren't interesting or involve much of anything outside the basic framework of more combat
>Worlds usually feel rather artificial rather than "Lived in"
>Most often the game doesn't need to be an MMO, there's no real benefit (Raid parties may as well be 6 player lobbies)
>The social aspect with guilds has been usurped by easier to access things like discord and most MMO guilds require a discord anyway, no reason to log in if you just want to chat with friends
That and the fact everything is loaded into the endgame to encourage mindless grind and hoping sunk cost keeps people around for the new stuff just makes it a losing proposal. Maplestory 2 offered a cool idea by having so much player submitted stuff, billboards, shirts, banners, and then the player made houses were really cool, but the game itself was botched because the advancement rate was so fast it took 6 hours to hit the end game, and then all you had to do was the same 4 raids and you couldn't even sell the gear you got from it. You skipped 95% of all the dungeons and dungeon delving was limited per week so it was an active detriment to ever leave the main quest path.
Runescape was one of the best MMOs thanks to it's spread out content, content at every level, unique quests that had a lot of variety and were never generic tasks, so many skills that allowed players to contribute to an economy and experience so many things, and the way it'd encourage randoms to hang out in the same spots which spurred on chatting, which encouraged people to chat, and get AIM or whatever as well as play.
>Post summarizes article
>Picture shows article
>Also links to the article.
>Thread has 100+ replies.
Are you homosexuals serious? You're just going to give a homosexual buzzfeed website publicity like this? No one even made an attempt to give an archive link?
It's all 14 year old phoneposters nowadays, anon, they don't even know how to provide an archive link and think watching ads make you a good person.
It's literally not the fault of casuals if no one plays the community circlejerk you want. Neither side owes either anything. I don't want player drama and player reputation, or having to manually form parties, or level with others. So I'll play MMOs that don't force me into that.
I think parties shouldn't even exist as a mechanical concept.
MMOs are dying because people are terrible, so there's no sense of community or desire to interact with such awful people
Because the games don't incentivize such interactions anymore. If you need an item, just go to the auction house/market board/grand exchange. If you need a group, just use the duty finder/party finder/group finder/raid finder/ dungeon finder. Need to go somewhere, just hop on your flying mount and completely ignore the world, the landscape and the enemies, or just teleport and get there instantly. Need to level, just buy a level boost.
Other players have become almost entirely optional in modern MMOs.
If it has to be forced, doesn't that mean people didn't want to do it in the first place? Sounds to me like you are going though what the Dark Souls community went through in Elden Ring when they were forced to realize that 90% of their "community" was forced to be there and would gladly go offline or on private servers the second they are offered the chance to.
It's forced in the same way that you're forced to play without cheat codes in games. If all games had built-in cheat codes, everyone would use them because they have no self control.
If you literally need to make up psychological profiles for others, you are already reaching for excuses. I simply don't want to. Fun fact, people use the exact same excuse in Dark Souls.
>oh, you see, playing offline is EASY MODE, only REAL PLAYERS play online and be part of my community so I can grief them and then call them names and tell them to kill themselves, playing by yourself is literally cheating
Such a dumb fricking thought process man. People will always take the road of least resistance, which is why you have to design an MMO so players need each other. Forced interaction is the basis of every functional society. And the only Soul's game where people were forced into invasions was Dark Souls 2, since that is the only game where you could be invaded whilst hollow.
>People will always take the road of least resistance
Kek, the exact same excuse invaders use. And people wonder why no one wants to play with them.
Because it's a true statement, not just in video games, but in life. If every human was entirely self-sustainable, then tribes, communities and society, would have no reason to exist. I have no idea why anti-social people even go into a genre where socialisation is a core pillar of said genre
Surely that should mean that there's lot of people that would gladly interact with you, right? Oh wait, I forgot, just like Dark Souls, 99% of people can't stand the 1% of the "muh community"gays because they are all buttholes. No wonder you need the forced interactions.
Yes. I am really curious, what MMOs have you played with world PvP?
Only optional PVP, anything with forced PVP I stay far, far away from. My only interactions with griefers are them complaining about people like me avoiding them and that they have a right to "force me into their community".
So you have zero experience, yet you're preaching as if you do?
Meta is a problem because there's frick all to do in modern MMOs besides endgame raiding. And once people find out the quickest way to clear raids, going against the grain results in an instant kick or block.
Give me one reason why I shouldn't assume you want me to be forced into your griefing/ forced PVP ecosystem so you can just grief me, because i already see that in other games plenty.
1. More opportunity to RP
2. Allows for more varied playstyles (see Thief in UO
3. If a game uses a caravan system, it helps balance the economy
4. If gathering is important, it prevents players from turning into braindead gather bots that flood the economy
5. Prevents botting
6. Adds some danger to travelling
7. Allows you to frick off over annoying butthole players
8. Promotes travelling in groups
Off the top of my head
So nothing that would actually make the game more fun for me, just allow others to ruin my own fun. And if I'm going to be punished as an anti-botting measure, I wouldn't play the game in the first place.
What was your first MMO and when did you play it?
Tiny bit of Everquest and tiny bit of WoW, both were miserable experiences. Never bothered with the genre again until all the shit you guys fondly talk about was booted out.
Case in point. You don't like MMOs, but the developers/investors are fricking morons and saw the need to sabotage the entire genre to appeal to you. You and others like you, are quite literally the perfect audience for ORPGs like PSO and GW1, but instead of making more of those games, the moronic devs just ruin MMOs.
I mean, if your "fun" comes from making me miserable in the game, why exactly should I care? It's the same with Dark Souls, if I could stay far away from invaders, they could do what they want and I wouldn't care, but their fun comes from ruining mine. Same with your stuff. It's not my problem in an entire group of people aren't enough to be social enough to form a community without needing to force me into it too.
World PvP is just another part of the game, unless it's a PvP focused MMO that is. You yourself have zero experience with such games, yet you're so adamant that all MMOs with PvP devolve into gankfests. Your Dark Souls comparison is also moronic, since that game is balanced and designed around being a single-player game and you can just play offline if you want use humanities/effigies/embers without risking an invasion.
The fact of the matter is that PvP is just another form of player interaction, if there people who use it to be buttholes, then there are also people who can use it stop the buttholes. In fact, I knew a guy in UO that would just hang around Britannia Britain looking for thieves to kill
>4. If gathering is important, it prevents players from turning into braindead gather bots that flood the economy
As someone who plays EVE I can tell you this is 100% not the case, it just means that groups with the power to defend gathering areas are the only ones with the access to bot it.
Never played EVE, so I can't speak for it, but this was hardly ever a problem for me in UO or DAoC
Personally I'm not anti-social but I'm stubborn as hell and it pisses me the frick off when "meta" interferes with my own choices and playstyle. And nowadays meta dominates MMOs so much that it's impossible to find anyone who will tolerate a player who doesn't live and breathe by the meta.
you find people with similar mind to you, who arent meta slaves and make good friendship that spills over to irl aswell. some game communities are 99.9% meta and some openly bully people trying to minmax, so depends on occasion.
Thank god for auctioin houses, i hate scammers
Seems to me like you're just a gullible moron if you're getting scammed in MMOs.
Dont care.
Im glad that companies cater to my convenience. Some reason why malls/brick mortar stores died while amazon flourished
moronic comparison, but okay. The entire entertainment industry is on the decline because of morons like you, but at least you're honest about it
>make hardcore RPG
>make the progression loop much smaller than traditional MMOs (few days to a few weeks)
Wow i've saved mmos
The vidya industry focus all it's marketing on shit like the """""new""""" Cowadoody, and omg the new update of Fartnight, or the copypaste of CS Vallorant and omg play FIFER and spend your money on players.
It's way more profitable for them, now MMO companies are also to blame, because at least in WoW the company got infested by the wokies, they made terrible decisions after terrible decisions, and the game is now a mere shadow of what it once was.
MMOs are now a niche just like RTS are.
>appeal to NEETs without a life
>force a monthly fee from NEETs without a life
the paradox of the MMO genre
This thead is literally a phone home screen AI generated news article with link and it has almost 100 replies.
People care about the subject, nobody gives a frick about the article.
Then why is there a link?
Because OP is a gay.
>3 Reasons Why MMOs Are Dying
Western predatory commercialism does not let korean type of games to thrive in the west. Since the main focus is to use them to make money as fast fricking possible. This is why they have been holding out new releases, because it's not worth selling the rights.
We probably won't ever see a mmo in ten to twenty years from now.
They're boring
Nobody likes interacting with people
They're boring
>1
No social interaction is forced upon the player anymore, and even when it is, people do literally anything in their power to not find people in the game (see:destiny with it's LFG bullshit. It should have been heralded as a return to social interaction in "MMOs" [I know it's not really an MMO] but instead everyone did everything in their power to never interact in game.)
>2
MMOs have moved away from being an open and more free experience, to railroading you into doing one track of content, on repeat, to progress or grow, usually with timegating that punishes people who play a lot in one sitting versus playing a bit every day. It was an attempt to make things more appealing to casuals so they didn't feel like they would get blown past by the nolifers. Instead, the nolifers see no reason to play so the games look dead as frick after a couple days cause there's nothing to do when you log in until reset, kek.
>3
Globalization of servers in pursuit of larger playerbases/MAU dings, it locks games into certain styles of gameplay systems that can be adjusted for ping and other shit, and so we see the same tab target bullshit that can compensate latency up to like 200ping safely.
We have to be hardline against higher ping if we want to get better gameplay systems, it's just reality. Sorry flyovers.
>bonus
proper security and identification methods akin to south korea (no they don't use their fricking social security anymore, not since 2016), requiring a postpaid phone, a check card that isn't prepaid, and/or identity verification through a provider like mypin (Which we don't have anywhere else in the world as of yet, sadly).
Removal of chinks will improve the quality of games about 50 fold and will make things that should be a grind more plausible and even profitable for the autists that want to do them. Why deny players an opportunity to get gold in favor of some fricking chink bot farm? Makes 0 sense.
Black person
I've never really seen them as real games. MMOs are just hang out spots for people in a virtual space, the gameplay is secondary.
>Meta
Player problem, just don't play with spergs. Pretty sure most MMOs these days are built so that the average player (morons) can clear content. Older MMOs were a lot less forgiving iirc.
>Time investment
Of course a game, especially in a genre that's meant to be played for several hours over the course of a long time, requires investment. It's not even about the grind (though that's a huge component of it), it's about the social aspect of it. MMORPGs are the epitome of "it was the friends we made along the way". It's supposed to be about coming home from work, logging on for a few hours, and shooting the shit with whoever happens to be on while you grind things out.
>investment
Implies you're getting something out of it lol
>Combat in most MMOs is still tab-target trash
>Game is completely datamined and optimized at release
>MTX
Mortal Online 2 would be the perfect MMO in theory, but it's managed by completely incompetent devs and has numerous shortcomings because of that. There are no good MMOs out atm.
Combine EverQuest Next with VR chat. That's literally all you need to do. MMOs are dead because people want something more, they want a virtual reality now. Make a world heavily focussed on UGC, let the community tell their own stories and create their own factions. All you need to do is serve as a DM, creating events and policing the users and the economy to make sure no one steps too far out of step with the general population.
It's a pity this isn't a leddit thread, because "socialization is dead" threads on leddit are peak comedy. If you look at someone's old posts, it includes kino like
>banned for bullying
>banned for racism
>banned for scamming
>banned for threats
There's a legendary thread on the GW2 subleddit where people say the game is dead and the in-game admins proceed to give reasons why each poster in the thread was banned, and it's all shit like verbal abuse, telling people to kill themselves and more.
One guy went on a long rant about how FF XIV has killed chatting, and then it turns out he was harassing fellow guild members and was banned by the jannies.
Just goes to show that "toxicity" is actually a healthy part of any gaming community.
Anon, if everyone left you and you are screaming alone in an empty room, maybe, just maybe, they aren't the problem. Though PSO2 and FF XIV jannies are trannies so they are a problem too.
>maybe, just maybe
Wow, he's literally me.
Doesn't disprove my point, anon.
the GW2 guys seem pretty sensitive to their community getting upset
I still remember they sacked some feminist b***h on the spot for riling people up on twitter
>I still remember they sacked some feminist b***h on the spot for riling people up on twitter
Nah, that was different, she decided to go on a twitter crusade against their biggest community figurehead. Basically GW2's Asmongold. And she was in the wrong. If she had harassed a nobody they would have turned a blind eye, but she caused too much drama and made a fool of the company.
Banter is necessary.
Most people who say chatting is dead 99% if the time they are acting like they are posting as an anon on Ganker. A lot of folks have zero socialization skills in mmos. I’m in a Ganker guild(FC) in ffxiv and people talk to each other and help each other out.
>Most people who say chatting is dead 99% if the time they are acting like they are posting as an anon on Ganker.
I legitimately don't post anywhere on the internet except Ganker. Relearning a different style of posting takes time.
You don’t have a job that you talk to other people?
No.
Suck anon, I got a job talking to older folks and got out of my shell over the years. Stuff like that takes years to change
>makeuseof.com
kys
Mmo devs too busy thinking of ways to manipulate me into logging in every day instead of making a good game i want to play every day
>play TF2
>300 hours
>still suck balls at the game
>leave
What's the point in these shitty ass MMO/online only games, that you can't even get gud at 300 hours? They're a pointless waste of time, and even if the game was easy (I played a bit of the LOTR one) it's just stuff I played in CRPGs except a lot of the nuance/fun has been stripped. Instead of dungeon crawling with either 6 men like in Wizardry 7, instead of having good atmosphere and puzzles like in King's Field, instead of seeing Lord British himself in Ultima, I get to do what I did before except it's on a cooldown, and I'm doing it with my friend (which, if he just came over, we could play Fancy Pants or Worms and get a better time).
These games feel evil. Giant drain of your time, you meet losers like those MLP homosexuals that tried to rope me in with their fetish in TF2, and you're at the mercy of a company's server. And at least for me, you can't even get gud at them!
Sounds like your just a garbage player that can't make any friends. Though I can somewhat sympathise with you. Modern MMOs really don't have an edge over single-player games, much less traditional multiplayer games with matchmaking. You just get matched up with random morons, run a braindead piece of content and leave the instance. You'll probably never see any of those people ever again too
>MMOs died because Korean overflowed the marked with garbage pay-to-win shops and now every new MMO must have this 'feature'.
>A Fulfilling MMORPG Experience Requires a Huge Time Investment
Correction, it requires the player to invest EFFORT. Time investment is one thing but it is much more important for a player to care about the game, to invest their effort into making up stories, adventures and to actually and encourage social encounters with other players.
>Over-Monetization Ruins the MMORPG Experience
Not exclusive to MMOs. It is indeed a problem but not the bane of an MMO.
>MMORPG Metas Force Players' Hands
This is indeed a very damning problem in MMOs. Players want to min-max, that's fine but weak willed players opt to easy solutions and guides 90% of the time so they don't have to spend time and effort... in a genre that thrives on players spending time and effort.
All of these are true to an extent, but there is another aspect to MMOs most people like to forget: the social aspects.
>Dungeon/Raid finders
>insta-teleports to dungeons
>trading and auctions completely missing its social aspects
An MMO hinges most on the first M, Massive, which can mean a lot of things but what it has to be is to make the world feel alive. To see players running around and INTERACTING with each other. People queueing up to a dungeon, getting teleported, clearing it in 5 minutes then disbanding the group all the while no one talks to each other is perhaps the biggest problem MMOs face right now.
Ask ANY veteran WoW player, those who played it before the WotLK dungeon finder update, to tell you a few nice social moments they had and I can guarantee you 8/10 WILL mention a nice little adventure about picking up a group in a town/city, travelling to a dungeon and (eventually) beating it while talking to each other during the downtimes and then they add each other for later.
This is the quintessential experience of WoW and MMOs as a whole. To make friends, rivals and enemies.
The reason MMOs are dying is because it's no longer Massive or played as Multiplayer. It's just dudes grinding Online.
I've been always curious about eve online, is it fun for a starter?
no
early game is finding a niche corp to sign up and stick to their events as a grunt flying frigates and other lowend ships. end game is when you are leading the corps and events, and backstabbing other corps and people. game is more focused talking outside the game and planning it than inside playing the game. if that sounds interesting go in.
unfortunately the first month or two is basically just you desperately trying to understand what the frick is going on while training essential skills so you don't suck ass. You can bypass the early training phase by spending either real money or grinding ISK in faction warfare to buy skill boosters. How much fun you're gonna have is decided solely by how good of a corp you can find.
How many "endgamegays" even are there, usually when we are given numbers they can make up like 1% of the playerbase or less.
The issue is most of the time the popular MMOs view endgame as people who have already completed the final/most recent raid, that's not endgame, that's finished. There's nothing to do after that. Scale it back even a tiny bit and that 1% extends out to like 40-50%, basically anyone who's finished the leveling process will almost always be right there.
Recent MMO's have endgame as the actual game, anything before is a tutotial.
yes lvl 1- 99 is literally a tutorial
1) no passionate devs make them anymore
2) discord
3) datamining
MMOs and growing attached to a world that matters and a character you made are still timeless.
The problem is that MMOs betrayed the players with waves of closures. Once players experienced their first or second MMO shutdown, the integrity of these worlds vanished and people realized all actions inside then are pointless. No one ever said "Ill start this MMO for 5 years before its shutdown". If that was the model, no one would have ever played Ultima Online or Everquest.
Until there's a way for MMOs to be decentralized enough so that player actions (like leveling, loot, etc) are permanent, I think they'll always be bland. There's other problems but I think that is the biggest one that can't be reconciled.
I hate that leveling has been reduced to "that pointless slog that you need to go through before getting to the REAL GAME"
I want leveling ot be an adventure. I don't want the quests to lead me from a place to a place, spending a total of 2 minutes in each hub, barely needing to kill any monsters, when I'm already way overleveled from main campaign quests alone.
I want to see my character slowly build up strength, get excited when I finally reach that new skill or unlock the new dungeon. I want a leveling experience that would last a long time, and not be a 5 hour rush.
Also I want to see the locations I go through when leveling in the endgame. There is no point making so many assets which the players are going to see just once and then never again. There is nothing wrong with bringing up a beefed up version of a low level dungeon in the endgame, with boosterd rewards.
I want the adventure in my MMOs, damnit
maybe eso might scratch your itch. doesnt entirely covers it but is close.
Just play Ragnarok online
MMOs are dying because they are dogshit. They forgot the entire point of the genre and instead of improving multiplayer experiences they went for visual novel, corridor running, instanced content trash that could be played without other humans.
>3 Reasons Why MMOs Are Dying
No one chats with randoms anymore
MM makes you a bot that doesnt care about anyone
THERE IS NO SOCIAL REPUTATION TIED TO YOUR CHARACTER
Social interaction has been going down a lot in games probably because people are use to or afraid of trashtalking. And companies are more than happy to slap the ban-hammer on people for saying a word that may be considered offensive.
TF2 at least hasn't change, its a very social game to this day.
I just hate things that undermine the integrity of game
>RMT
>Addons/plugins of any kind
>Boosting/carry services
>botting
Then I realized it's not MMO's fault but moronic subhumans who do this shit
>RMT ruins mmos.
Pls b***h rmt has been there since the dawn of time, problem is the bots that frick with the ingame economy
>Pls b***h rmt has been there since the dawn of time
I know, does not mean it makes the whichever game I am playing worse
botting killed the sincerity of ragnarok online for me
Why spend hours of your life gathgering 100 bear asses when some one with 10 open kore clients running the entire day could gather 10000 bear asses
>
The proliferation of VOIP programs is the real reason MMOs died. voice chat just reinforces the insular nature of MMO players by having them spend their whole play time talking with the friends they started the game with instead of chatting with the people they're partied with in whatever content they're doing.
Although i say that a much bigger problem is the queue-obsessed game design of MMOs where the system will automatically slot you into parties for content with people that might as well be bots for all you care since you'll never see them again.
>3 Reasons Why MMOs Are Dying
1: Subscriptions. I ain't paying that.
2: ~~Second~~ Third Job in an era where people are working a full-time job (or two!) See #1 for this as well.
3: Because the gameplay sucks.
1.Hyper autistic obsession with minmaxing over everything else, especially social elements
2. Datamining and scouring over all data as soon as its available, destroying all mystery and intrigue in the games
3. Catering to the "solo" player mindset and the removal of social elements as a core mechanic
Its really that simple. Some of it can be changed by devs but there is no way to prevent a sizable portion of your games population turning into the worst types of male autism. These people do this with GAAS games like genshin, they do it with single player games, they do it with anything and everything they can, but they absolutely thrive on doing it with mmos because then they can feel directly superior to others in an immediate kind of way.
> minmaxing over
I hate that, used to have different builds but no fun havers pretty much made everything not fun
I'd argue that the people that are pants on head moronic are equally responsible.
that second point hurts so much
we will never ever get fun mysteries in videogames anymore because datamining autists cannot comprehend fun
the genre is dead and buried, modern MMOs are made for only two groups of players:
>braindead casuals who can't handle any challenge at all or even learning the game's basic mechanics (the overworld is usually full dedicated to them, being extremely easy, boring and meaningless)
>hardcore no-lifer autists who love doing the same shit over and over again (the "meaningful" endgame is usually dedicated to those)
MMOs made for midcore players are gone with few small exceptions (private WoW servers, private Warhammer Online server)
not sure why midcore players are being ignored because they're the most numerous group of customers...honestly no idea
Define midcore
not him, but i assume people who enjoy playing games a lot but enjoy playing them for the experience rather than some hyper competitive thing.
If that’s the cases wouldn’t ffxiv midcore be like extremes, variant dungeons, and deep dungeons?
ffxiv is midcore only in the worst sense but not in the best sense. Having played it for years I can tell you that game doesn't feel like an mmo, it feels like a single player game with mmo elements tacked onto it in a very cumbersome way. You cant even fricking dm people while you are in group content like dungeons, like what the frick is that game design?
>ffxiv midcore be like extremes
yeah, FFXIV extremes are a good example of midcore content
if only more of the game was like this
Probably add ba or drs aswell but him letting you only have one life is more hardcore
People who enjoy playing the game, progressing in the game and challenging content, without needing to min-max your play time or spend dozens of hours learning boss fights. I could easily spend 8-10 hours playing an MMO, but if all I'm doing is learning a boss fight, brainless mob farming or braindead crafting, then I can go an hour at most before I close the game.
Sounds like you don’t even want to play a mmo because what you list to dislike has been a staple of mmos for 20+ years
No. In an old MMORPG I can do a variety of content because I'm not beholden to garbage like gear score or item levels. The open-world wasn't a barren wasteland because every interesting piece of content was locked behind instanced content. There weren't server wide auction houses that completely killed bartering and hiring low level players to gather miscellaneous crafting items or reagents. I couldn't just fast travel or fly with auto-run enabled whilst the game was alt tab to my destination, completely killing the sense of adventure. There were things to find and do in the open-world, people to talking to, people to help, areas/mobs to avoid and sense of danger because dying had an actual consequence. moron.
>Sounds like you don’t even want to play a mmo because what you list to dislike has been a staple of mmos for 20+ years
10 years
Archeage released in 2013 and it was midcore kino for a short time before it went P2W
those who enjoy semi-challenging overworld in which you die if you frick up, and thus in which your feel your character progressing (either through a good item drop or level-up) and who also enjoy endgame which requires solid group play and for everyone to know how to play their characters but doesn't require everyone to be a top-tier player, just competent
I’m surprised TPC hasn’t made a pokemon mmo considering how much money Go made. I’d wonder how they’d do the combat system, it’d probably be cooldown based like Unite.
There should really be more MMOs like pre-NGS PSO2. Even when XIV and DQX exist, those are only carried by their stories being really good.
PSO2 isn't an MMO, it's an online RPG and it's what inspired GW1. And I agree, there should be more ORPGs instead of butchering MMORPGs until they resemble ORPGs.
The #1 reason is the increased prevalence of social media.
People don't log onto their MMO of choice just to chat about random bullshit with strangers anymore. Because they do that bullshit on discord, twitter, reddit, or dare I say here.
And as actual games. Hate to break it to you, but MMOs were and have always been sub par. So without the above social element, MMOs suffer.
>A Fulfilling MMORPG Experience Requires a Huge Time Investment
this is true and i believe mmo's should do away with the concept of traditional leveling. instead i think skills based on the actions being done in game should replace traditional leveling. imagine if you want to be good at warrior combat, the more you use warrior items in combat the better your attacks are. along with this, i think certain things that power up your character should be locked behind a solo event that you must complete alone in order to achieve a certain power level. once you unlock whatever this powerup may be, all players you encounter now know you have achieved a certain skill level and this can not be achieved any other way than personal skill
>Over-Monetization Ruins the MMORPG Experience
it all started with cosmetics and it needs to be done away with
>MMORPG Metas Force Players' Hands
i think the mmo community has learned through the WoW classic experiment that the easier the content the more fun and popular the game is. a bigger population of players want to be able to complete content and have fun themselves and with other players rather than have to meet some sweaty meta that the smallest population of hardcore players have developed.
damn sorry to hear yall going through it
anyway SoTO was fricking awesome
Playing this right now. Never got passed living world season 2, but starting over again to do the whole thing all the way to end of dragons (bought and unlocked all story content up to that 2 years ago). Love the core leveling, good inventory management and the general open world roaming and events, Seeing veteran players running around with gaudy neon lights or really bright mismatch colors makes me laugh how ridiculous the players choice in fashion is. The only thing I am concerned about is the writing in this game, I noticed it seemed to get worse as I progress I hope this isn't the norm. I am pissed they give you such a limited fricking bank space when I cant use my bags for extra spaces in the fricking bank, every god damn MMO does this ffs arena net.
A way to make MMOs good again is to redefine the genre
There will be another World of Warcraft-type of revolution, just not in our lifetimes most likely
MMOs need engaging, interesting content, dynamic worlds, player-driven stories which cannot be produced at a rate that any onions-goy superprofit-driven utterly uneffective corporation is able to nowadays
Maybe AI will fix the issue, maybe not
>he thinks mmos can have dynamic worlds and player-driven stories
Lol good one anon
You are part of the reason why MMOs are so shit
they can, you're just a dumbfrick zoomer who never got to experience it
I have been playing mmos from like mid or early 2000s you can’t get that stuff back anon, you have to let it go.
>dynamic worlds
early Archeage, Lineage 2
>player-driven stories
Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, also early Archeage, Star Wars: Galaxies, EVE Online, Everquest (IIRC I remember GMs doing story events there)
>Black folk
>zoomers (no numpad)
>esport
Seems about right.
30 year old system designs just being plugged into new games like threat table enemy ai. Devs literally putting the absolute minimum of resources they can get away with into things every player runs into like quest writing. The consumerbase is a bunch of shit eating homosexuals so desperate for a new game to get stuck in that they accept the first two things without complaint.
What's wrong with aggro management?
All mobs attacking the tank because he pressed his aoe threat generating hotkey is gay. Maybe mobs that are supposed to be stupid should act this way but other intelligent creature types should try to kill squishies doing healing or magic damage to them. It's not super hard either, DDO launched in mid to late 2000s and I remember you had to have your plate wearers in front, clothies in the back and rogues and rangers in between to intercept the monsters that would try to run for the back line.
That's aggro management, but fleshed okay, sounds cool. Especially since it'll mix up the dog shit "tank and spank" design of modern MMO dungeons and mobs
fleshed out*
You can't really mix the structure of MMOs with skill and reaction based gameplay. Because of latency issues. Even non-massive MOs struggle with it, and with MMOs it's hopeless.
too much grind too much time
MMOs are dying because they're not fun to play, they're not designed so players can just do whatever they want, on wow for example, the whole high level gameplay is literally doing the same shit over and over again ad infinitum to get the best gear, and this shit is the same on any other MMO you'd look at.
And obviously this is not helped by the fact that you've got to pay to buy the game, pay for the expansions, pay a monthly subscription and then have a fricking cash shop.
MMOs are the literal definition of line must go up at all costs.
all the good rpg games were created by people who grew up playing dnd in the 80s and 90s. think about that, devs had two decades of world building and story crafting experience before they even thought about deving the game. the truth is we dont have any qualified people to create rpg games any more.
At this point, what is the possible solution? Back in the day, if you wanted to play an MMO, you had to plan one of the ones on the market even if you were a casual player or a story player and didn't like forced grouping or open world dangers, but these days MMOs don't have the option to do that, the casuals and story readers can just avoid yours and play something like SWTOR or FFXIV that's basically a quasi-single player game with some MMO stuff. MMOs no longer have the option of forcing said people into their ecosystem now.
>what is the possible solution?
A disaffected incel auteur must solodevelop the next MMO sensation.
The only realistic way to fix MMOs is for some indie developers to make another Runescape. Small team makes a humble game with good design, and it grows over time into a big game. We've already discussed in this thread how even a "small" player base of 1000 players could be enough to pay for several developers to work on the game. It's not hard to imagine that playerbase growing and more developers being hired.
>The only realistic way to fix MMOs is for some indie developers to make another Runescape
I did not care for runescape. Make another Ragnarok/Dungeon Fighter Online
Make a 2-D side scrolling mmo like maplestory or latale. I love me some 2D mmos or something like maplestory 2 but not horribly ran into the ground. Also heard that DFO is getting a 3D mmo soon
>Also heard that DFO is getting a 3D mmo soon
I don't have hope for Neople not fumbling any spinoff game (look at their dead Fighting game)
I meant Runescape in the sense that Runescape was literally made by 2 people from their parent's kitchen and now they have over 300 employees
I have fun with my computer friends!
that guy in the back is rad as hell
That giant knight is the coolest holy frick
>I like competitive pvp, okay play a moba
>I like questing and world building, okay play an rpg like baldurs gate
>I like the social team work elements, monhun and destiny do it better with better core focused gameplay. No downtime or walking between locations. And just as much min max autism (with viable off meta builds)
>I want an opt in multiplayer rpg with good gameplay, play anything by formsorftware
Mmos don’t have a place in modern gaming everything they did that was good or innovative has been scrapped for parts and put into other genres that distilled it.
unironically shitters are the #1 thing I hate in MMO's. How the frick can you not learn after 2-3 mistakes what you are doing wrong. I quit WoW because everyone had a gorillion plugins basically playing the game for them, and getting a group without using these is impossible. I quit FFXIV because the end game does not incentivize people to help each other, so you're stuck with some shitters who can't learn mechanics of a fight after 15 pulls somehow, despite watching guides.
I quit OSRS because it's somehow a mix of the two of those
I quit Guild wars because it was a boring piece of clunky shit
I quit new age because lmao new age.
Unironically I play Modern Maplestory, and have a fun time soloing boss content
>I quit WoW because everyone had a gorillion plugins basically playing the game for them
I've witnessed a friend playing, addon literally tells him which button out of total of 5 to press when.
A friend of mine added it for FF XIV for me and I uninstalled it a day later, I couldn't understand it. It literally told me where to stand, who to heal, what attack was coming and what it did and how to avoid or counter it. It wasn't even a game at that point.
Would would you even need that stuff in ffxiv? Game is pretty easy until you get to savage stuff
>when playing the game feels like a chore instead of fun and you feel like a bot could do all this
yeah just drop it
Most people aren't even human. Koreans have a whole thing about hiring other people to level up your characters, they have a name for it but I don't remember what it is, maybe "mule" or something.
grim.
and market ends up with devs develop hamster wheels to cater to them is more grim.
It's because retail wow is so bloated every class has 500 proccs that interact with each other. In order to play at a commonly acceptable level, which is highly inflated because of moronic parse culture and meta gaming, you need those addons.
Classic/TBC/WotLK do not have this problem because their class design is not absurd (yet).
Retail wow devs are in a constant arms race with addon developers which makes their encounters unplayable without addons.
Ban combat addons, ignore the parse prostitutes, simplify the game. Allow only cosmetic addons for UI and stuff like that. Problem solved.
I watched my friend play OSRS, his fricking game was lit up with boxes, squares, circles and timers that told him exactly what key to press, where and when
I no longer trust him in co-op games as much as I did before
Latale is better than mabinogi, also has a better ost aswell
I agree that addons and meters are helping kill any semblance of positive player interaction in MMOs but don't think for a second that there isn't a giant list of people who were patient with you in the past when you were learning too. You are either in denial or delusional if you think otherwise. If you want new people to come in you have to accept the fact that they aren't no lifers who are going to repeat shit in one single game to get it perfect every time
How is it?
Are any other MMOs growing besides Weeb WoW?
I pity zoomers who didn't experience mid 00's MMORPG phase. You missed out, c**ts. Enjoy your p2w trash "live services".
LMAO
> a majority of older mmos where better
This homie didn’t play stuff like cabel or Granado Espada, that stuff had some soul horrible p2w and grinding but they had nice music.
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Number 1 reason in my opinion is that MMOs don't incentivize the multiplayer aspect. 10 years ago it was possible to make friends in guilds or just randomly doing questing, now unless you have a party prepared to go into the game, you'll like just stumble upon literal NPCs playing the game like it was single-player MMO, mostly to avoid loot fighting. When, in fact, they should actively incentivize group efforts, increase drop rates if you are doing with group for rare loot so grinding for specific items is less of a soul crushing experience for example. Don't punish loners, but reward cooperative people.
They are dying because everyone is terminally online all the time. MMOs used to be online hubs where you could meet with other like-minded folks and form long lasting friendships, your bonds were strengthened by adversity. The current systems are so convenient that you can literally join a party, run a dungeon and split the loot without saying or typing a word to anyone. The community has been reduced to sentient bots, you don't see others as individuals because you will never see them again. Also most MMOs are not exactly engaging gameplay wise, so you have no community, couple that with dumbed down systems its easy to see why they've dropped off.
Anyone who played them back in the day knows this to be true. We may not have the time to no-life a game anymore, but that doesn't mean that the systems should have changed to accommodate us, we should have been relegated to weekend warriors. Instead the games are so piss easy that you can casually complete expansions and level cap. There is no longer an option for people to form long term bonds because the hardest goals can be accomplished in an afternoon. Sad really, because the genie can't be put back in the lamp, people are so used to current systems that if they were presented with the old ways they would drop the game so fast that distributors wouldn't be able to keep up with the refund requests.
That's not to say that people don't like challenges, MMOs have just been replaced with Souls-likes. We need something so challenging that you NEED other people to succeed. Self reliance is nice in single player, communities need codependency to thrive.
>so challenging that you NEED other people to succeed
You don't need challenge for that, you can solve it with game design. For a simple example, imagine a monster that has an impenetrable shield on the front. You won't be able to beat it solo no matter how OP you are, you need someone to distract it while another attacks from behind.
That would work, not saying everything needs to be pandemonium warden (though encounters like these are also necessary). Players must need other people is my point. Going through hell with someone by you side is how friendships are cemented. Friends and comrades are the real rewards of mmos. The friendships I've made over the years have outlasted every game they've came from. It's strange that people play mmos by themselves when single player games are so much better in almost every aspect. I assume it's people looking for connection but the systems are so convenient that it makes it harder to interact with people in a meaningful way.
>Going through hell with someone by you side
To me this seems like a too specific goal that's too hard to accomplish. The more you challenge players, the more you'll attract wiki spreadsheet minmaxing autists who want to grind through it with maximum efficiency or just guilds who bruteforce through it with numbers and resources. If you want this experience specifically, then I think non-MMO multiplayer games are a better way to accomplish it. Put people in a lobby and have them look for a small team to do quests with, and probably don't put levelups in the game because otherwise people will want to do it efficiently.
I'm a huge MMO purist in that I think the only good MMO is the kind of game that's best as an MMO. The game should primarily focus on experiences that you can only get in an MMO, and lean onto the fact that you're supposed to play the game for long periods of time instead of completing it.
You're taking me too literally. Assembling an exp party back when i played was literally hell. When you made one, it was in hopes that it would last hours, even if it wasn't the most efficient setup, because when you died you lost exp. If you left the party you were in charge of finding your own replacement and if you didn't it reflected poorly on you and made it harder for your to find exp groups.
Also, you can't be afraid of who you're going to attract because it takes all different kinds to make a server. Playing a round of Valorant isn't going to bond you in the same way that killing something you have failed to kill for a month prior will.
Adversity with others is key.
>If you left the party you were in charge of finding your own replacement and if you didn't it reflected poorly on you and made it harder for your to find exp groups.
That sounds horrifying. I hate tying myself to other people. What if I want to stretch my legs, or go pee?
I'm not a smoker but i've sat through hundreds of smoke breaks. It was rough, but at the end of the day it was also a game, people were understanding. You had to be. The social contract goes both ways. You don't want to screw your friends over. If you couldn't find your replacement and had to leave people would understand, but if it happened every time your reputation took a hit. Leveling was slow so the people in your range didn't just disappear and there weren't party finders that matched you with other servers. It was an actual community.
We've taken the magic out of mmos. In the old days no one knew what the hell was going on and they really were whole new worlds to discover. Nowadays mmos are solved at launch, each update is mined far in advance and wrung dry in a few weeks, there are no mysteries or secrets, everyone has to play meta or get left behind or ostracised, communication goes through outside systems like discord instead of in game so natural relationships and interactions don't happen. I don't know how you could fix it beyond somehow nuking all wikis and discord. They were a product of the time.
No mmo is like aika, the only mmo i enjoyed. I also dont have time to sink into mmos
>no full loot pvp/pve
>no oppressive jannies killing fun
you didn't play MMOs
MMOs are shit because the content treadmill idea is played out and more threadbare than ever. Companies pay millions for data analytics over content. Most development effort is geared towards making each player an efficient consumer, being in their theme park but not spending money is the most undesirable trait. The games are therefore tailored to being unfriendly towards probably 95% of players but hyper addictive to the top 5% spenders. It's similar to casinos. Discord didn't ruin anything, back in the day we were all in ventrilo and making bootleg wikis. The games just goy less content innovative and less sandboxy, which is a model that works well with emergent social systems and simulated dynamic environments.
It's the same reason modern games are hot garbage. The content creation is pushed out to Indians using bloated tools and techniques while overseen by directors. Most of the capable intelligent people are analyzing your gameplay data and optimizing marketing and cash generation.
As you are expressing the sentiment through text, I would say you're wrong. To further prove this point I will point out that most people would prefer a text to a phone call.
MMOs like WoW are now just disconnected lobby games with no sense of adventure or actually being in a cohesive world. on top of that all the classes get homogenized and they heavily focus on speed running gameplay where it's designed so can just run straight through everything
MOBA
Battle Royale
Auto-Battler
I honestly think that nobody will play MMOs today. Not even the people crying for it will give them a shot. Otherwise you wou would at least see less popular entriea getting mentioned here. Everyone who asks for a new MMO is just busy trying to find a reason to not play them. The same can be applied to arena FPS gays and full loot MMO gays.
See
All mmos are inherently shit to play, starting from Miridian 59. You play mmos not for gameplay but for what it tries to be, that was always the case and there are still games around that try to sell you that experience, only you aren't as forgiving to sheer jank as you were back when EQ and Shadowbane were a thing.
Those games were a novelty back then and a new experience. Even still I can go back and play Project 1999 with ease, yet I dropped mortal online 2 in 3hrs. Many MMOs today lack a charm that makes putting up with all jank worthwhile, instead you get early access trash where half the game is unfinished and tons of copy-pasted mobs flailing their arms around. I will take tab-target over the wannabe action gameplay in a lot indie MMOs any day of the week
>Many MMOs today lack a charm
I think it's because they're 100% mechanics.
It's that and they try to do everything in their power to keep you from simply enjoying the game's world. Whether it be dailies/weeklies, over abundance of instanced content, super fast levelling where you are hopping to a new zone every 2hrs, easy access to flying/teleports or stuck in cutscene hell. Modern MMOs never make the game's world be an important character or obstacle to overcome
Show me a good non-PvP MMO and I'll play it. There isn't one.
>Everyone who asks for a new MMO is just busy trying to find a reason to not play them
True. Before I play, I need to KNOW that my mmo devs are:
>racists
>incels
>j-pilled
>banter-friendly
>handsome
Also the game MUST not need an email to create an account.
And the publisher must accept monero for sub payment.
>arena FPS gays
absolutely. Problem arena fps fans have is they liked them back when they played LANs in college and on some low population servers, and chances are they enjoyed it because they were using campus internet and were winning free-for-alls against people on dial-up.
Once you add a global audience to ANYTHING, then very quickly the people who are far too good wind up dominating the game and not only that, they dominate the HOW of how the game is played. The "meta" has to be adhered to or you will be dead last. And you're competing with people who all have fast enough internet that you aren't going to have an advantage just from being on the T1 anymore.
MMOs are the same deal. The tiny minority define the entire game and the majority don't like where it's gone. When the fans liked WoW it was a smaller club and they had more time and likeminded friends.
tell me one MMO made in the veins of classic wow or ragnarok online in the last 5~10 years, there is none you fricking moron.
everything modern is in the veins of a hamster wheel/skinner box like ffxiv or modern wow.
>Time investment
A non issue. There are plenty of people who are willing to spend hundreds of hours playing LoL/CoD/Fortnite/Minecraft and a ton of others.
>Monetization
Kind of, but "micros" have been normalized to the point that people will accept them either way. Still does not stop new people from jumping in.
>MMORPG Metas Force Players' Hands
This one kind of has a point. If you play the MMORPGs long enough to get to the end game, you will most likely need to do the meta. Either because the content is tuned for this or because the community refuses to bring you along unless you engage with the meta. This is a purely community driven issue.
The REAL issue is that, this is not the early 00s anymore. The main draw of MMORPGs was that they were the ONLY games with large online multi player with perpetual game play. Now in days there are endless choices with those same aspect, but minus the 20 year old game play and mechanics of MMORPGs. "Live service" games has replaced the MMORPG.
MMORPG’s are a genre chockful of live service shit that has been infesting the rest of the industry. Back in the day, the MMORPG games weren’t having to compete with other more compact live service games as well.
But they’re shit nonetheless.
All modern games with online are MMO's. Its just people are autistic and ignore the most massive appeal of MMO's of the past THE FRICKING SOCIAL ASPECT. Shit man even with maplestory in 05-10 was so fun typing shit out a huge massive 2D world it was free but had a cashshop with no pay2win minus the cancer gatcha that was 1$ a fricking spin but a 1:1 000 000 a item you got was worth at least 1$ I shit you not most the time you would get trash potions not even a massive 999 stack but like 50 of them that would cost like 200k gold that would take you like 5 mins or less to farm.
It was so fun to just meet people and talk in town then there was party quests working together as a team to do shit scream at each other trying to kill the boss. Making friends across the world and forming a party to level up on the same map chilling together for hours killing shit for just if you were lucky fricking 1% of exp kek.
EVEN ON FRICKING TF2 NO ONE FRICKING USES THEIR MIC IN A FRICKING TEAM GAME WHERE IF PEOPLE WERE TO BE A TEAM AND TALK TO EACH OTHER THEY WOULD STOMP THE OTHER TEAM AND BADLY EVEN IF JUST A FEW PEOPLE WORKED TOGETHER AS A TEAM THEY STOMP. >L-L-LE DISCORD KILLED MMOS/ONLINE PLAY! Fricking plebs dont even talk on that pedo child grooming platform
AUTISM KILLED MMO's/ONLINE dev's forcing shit to be solo no talking no nothing just fricking autism. I miss talking to people online making friends across the world spending time with them day in day out creating real deep friendships it was so cool and fun people from all walks of fricking life man fat autstic social morons were rare then the 360 came out and people started following microsofts cancer and slowly games became solo adventure power fantasies with massive massive IRL money gambling to take advantage of the most mentally moronic people giving them all the power because they pay the most there games are built to cater to them.
I swear man maplestory from 05-10 CS:S&TF2 till 2012ish SO GOD DAMN FUN
MMOs are dying, because current generations can't just play the game, they need to follow guides and minmax all the fun out of the adventure.
>he thinks min maxing is a recent phenomena
It wasn't prevalent back then. I played EQ, LA2 and WoW on release. People just enjoyed themself. I played recent titles on release. People follow guides that are basically ready on release hour, especially for games that's from asia. Even more, people who don't follow guides called stupid and shamed into using guides.
>LA2
>People just enjoyed themself
lol lmao even
L2 had absolute worst min max homosexualry at the time, from top stacks instantly bsoe out of spots to deny competition fun of pvp, to 4am baium that you had to attend even though you would never see accs from it.
>Black
I think they are dying because they have become glorified matchmaking lobbies. Cross-server shit and being able to queue for most content from anywhere to match with strangers you will never see or hear from again is not good for the genre.
A lot of MMOs also focus on single player storylines and such. You feel less like a part of a larger world and more like you're playing an rpg where the party members are controlled by other people.
Devs focus almost entirely on the endgame "content" like raids and dungeons and not nearly enough on the leveling journey itself.
Like many have pointed out most people are using Discord rather than the in game chat systems so people are even more disconnected. I'm not sure if this is because people are afraid of saying something that could get them banned or what but it's a big problem.
MMOs will never have communities like City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies, or old WoW ever again due to these things and the genre will continue to decline.
I think players could become more socialable again in online games if they were forced to. SWG was a great example, I spoke to people because what else was I going to do if I wanted an entertainer/doctor buff or wanted well priced crafted items. The systems in modern MMo's encourage social passivity, it's too easy to immediately find people and do the content with 0 communication.
I'm glad MMOs are dying because it made me realize how much better single player games are now. Cyberpunk 2.0 blows the shit out of whatever new MMO you play today.
>A Fulfilling MMORPG Experience Requires a Huge Time Investment
No
>Over-Monetization Ruins the MMORPG Experience
Kinda but is not a main reason
>MMORPG Metas Force Players' Hands
Yes, but still not the main reason
The actual 3 reasons are:
>A shitton of MMOs to choose over the years, players get diluted between many games and eventually leave their MMOs.
>No new stream of players = dying MMO, no one wants to play a dying MMO in reality.
>MMOs are basically clones of eachother in this age, there is no reason to not play the newest MMO in the eyes of a normie because they are all the same.
I blame WoW and moronic companies for this.
GW2 still fun and lots of players. WoW, FFXIV, and any other MMOgays are moronic for still playing garbage
Here's a universal list of features that ruin MMORPGs:
>instanced content outside of player housing
>brainless mount system (WoW's flying being an example)
>segmented world
>insta-teleport to various locations in the world (class utility abilities excluded like a mage's teleport)
>matchmaking technology (LFR/LFG)
>esports homosexualry (arenas, mythic raiding)
feel free to add
matchmaking is a net neutral addition. It's so easy to set up extracurricularly that it does nothing to have it left out of a game because people who want it will immediately just go outside of the game to find groupings. See:literally every MMO that doesn't have that shit.
Same shit as auction houses. Players will use alternative services if it's not offered by the game itself, and all that does is result in people being in the game less.
Only a small minority of players would ever bother to do any of that, to the point where they'd be a non-factor
You are factually incorrect as shown by titles such as PoE, Runescape, Destiny, and even WoW Classic.
Got any numbers?
numbers of what? Numbers of people who used zybez during the oldschool runescape launch? Over 80,000 registered accounts in the first 2 months, that's easily found by going on zybez itself. They keep that stuff open and public.
Path of Exile AH sites and LFG sites also tend to advertise how many trades they've successfully facilitated. Destiny I don't know cause I don't play that shit but I know it's LFG site is literally advertised by bungie.
WoW Classic's LFG addon was so popular it caused multiple crashes of the server structure it used to facilitate matching. The creator advertised 100,000 matches week 1 (for a launch of a million-ish players, pretty fricking good).
Do you have any numbers that these features are used by the minority and that's why they're better left outside?
Runescape has over 300m registered accounts, if even 1% of them are for OSRS, then 80k is an extreme minority. I assume those PoE AH and LFG sites account every trade, which means a couple thousand people can easily reach hundred thousands or millions of trades over the years. I don't play Destiny either, I always assumed the game had an LFG feature, since it's a console shooter. And about the WoW classic LFG, if only 10k people used it ten times each, they yeah, it't hit 100k easy. With how stingy mondern devs are with numbers, it's hard to guess a rough estimate, but I still think a vast majority of players don't use any 3rd party AH or LFG.
Look up destiny lfg discord. There is zero (0) chance of you ever getting pug raid or dungeon going without using it. Bungie are absolute morons, they even have a fricking global chat being an opt in feature, which most people miss as a result thinking that there is no chat at all.
Going outside of the game to trade or match up is still social interaction.
>go on poe AH
>click trade
>person shows up in my ch
>we trade
>never exchange a word
doesn't seem any different than an actual auction house, and just makes me play the game less because I'm tabbing out to do other shit instead of playing it.
I don't know how POE works but in Runescape you had to arrange a place to meet, usually you did it by messaging in-game, and then trade items manually.
I genuinely think leaving it to 3rd parties is a good idea.
I agree with these but I also think there's been a huge culture shift in how game devs make MMOs and the players interact with them. I started when EQ and UO were past there prime in 2003 but I played runescape and lineage 2 quite a bit along with new world and osrs nowadays, so I've had a decent look at them over the last 20 years. There were always poopsockers back then but I think with the advent of streaming in the mid 2010's it's gotten even worse, this plays into the last point of meta gays absolutely making the social experience horrible for everyone else. Back in the 2000's I'd say there was much more tolerance from the general player base on learning and experimentation of the game, now you have losers that will shit there diapers and never take newer players on any sort of raid/dungeon experience because it's "too much of an efficiency loss for their time", which is ironic coming from neets whose time is worthless. On the flip side I think devs absolutel focus way too much on the end game vs the overall game experience, and that drives people to powerlevel and just suck up guide after guide since they don't want to be at the lower level. Every level should had a solid dungeon/pve/life skilling/social experience, not just "max level". It's really hard to sell an MMO to new crowds nowadays since the no life one trick pony old guard keeps insisting on gatekeeping their respective games and then complains about no fresh blood coming in
Because modern MMO's design focus is on completing daily checklists instead of being able to have fun regardless of what you do at your own pace, you may as well just get a second job at that point.
all those things are true for maplestory but it's popular even after 20 years
mmos require 1 thing: persistence. The developers must persistently add/update content, and the players expect their progression to always carry over.
developers stopped doing that a long time ago. instead they just work on new games to shit out to grab early adopter sucker money then put everything on maintence mode before 'sunsetting' the old product.
mmos were huge in the 2000s because it was explicitly understood that as long as you paid and played, your character would last forever. It was effectively a second you, a second life, an atlernate world. The first gen of mmos never shut down. not a single one of them did. This created the expectation that this would apply to all mmos... but it didnt. by gen two and onward, devs started pumping and dumping, and acted shocked that players werent impressed when they dangled features that were native to the first gen. We are on like gen 10 by now and homosexual devs still pretend TAMING ANIMALS and RIDING MOUNTS are EXCITING NEW CONTENT. Oh WOW LOOK PLAYER HOUSING. that was amazing in 1999, its not amazing in 2023. The genere reinvents the wheel each cycle and tries to scam new players because they know they cant trick old ones, which is why old players dont come back and abandon the genre.
he moment publisher suits realized they could make more money just throwing that 2nd version of you in the trash can and forcing you to start the whole thing all over again is when the genre 'died'. mmos are not persistent anymore. you have no guarentee that your character will continue to exist or that the company will even try. They did it to themselves and FFXIV is probably the only game in the genre that has ever tried to take responsibilityfor this. Evey other game for the past 14 years has been a pump and dump scam used to fuel the next one.
The reason MMOs are dying is because anything you say can get you banned, can't even as much as say sneed
True. Yet homosexuals like this say otherwise:
>industry realized MMO are an overly expensive technical gimmick compared to how much customers the gimmick actually bring compared to regular multiplayer
>early MMO were about discovering stuff and socializing, now everything is wiki'ed and there are much better options for socializing
>decades of hunting for a WoW-Killer burned out the genre thoroughly
most MMORPGs only use RPG mechanics because "they have to".
Fighting normal wildlife wolves at level 250 or the story quest pretending like four bandits can threaten your 4-exapnsions-deep endgame toon is complete SHIT and I don't get why more people aren't talking about it.
>toon
dismissed
thank you , reddit mod
There couldn't be a consistent game world if every village was only threatened by god-like entities that only a 4-expansions-deep toon could defeat. Actual levels shouldn't be acknowledged by npcs it would just be weird and against actual rpging,
Imagine in real life referencing someones level. >"you've been a doctor for 27 years?"
>"sorry we need a doctor that has been practicing medicine for 30 years for this appointment."
>come back in 3 years and try again
Are you stupid?
Don't make endgame content 4-expansions-deep about a village in danger. If you are going to ignore levels "for story" then DON'T MAKE AN RPG. Do a shooter or something.
What's the point of leveling if it doesn't matter? Start at "endgame" and focus on horizontal progression if you want to tell low-level stories.
"Games" without levelups aren't real videogames.
So every rpg should just stop after the main story has been resolved because realistically world warping events that can only be handled by your god-like toon wouldn't happen every 6 months.
Characters need to be retired every expansion and the timeline needs to jump forwards hundreds of years.
Leveling isn't an indicator of your contributions to the world its an indicator of what difficulty rating your next challenged will be, its a way to keep you locked into a linear progression.
You're asking if i'm stupid but you're completely missing the point of levels and that their purpose is more geared towards game difficulty as opposed to status in the game world. Killing a level 2 wolf and killing a level 20 wolf is still killing a wolf, its just a progression marker. A level 50 wolf may seem like a god but it isn't once you get to level 50.
Games shouldn't acknowledge your god-like status (high level) because then everything short of total world annihilation would be beneath you in your eyes. Its not about worldly implications its about challenge ratings.
again , DON'T make an RPG then , if your imagination is that limited.
Sounds like its your imagination that is limited.
Almost every RPG made uses the level system, the OG D&D uses this system, leveling is the cornerstone of RPGs. Just because your can't understand it doesn't mean its wrong.
mmo's peaked with wow wotlk and died with swtor, swtor at the time did innovate with their quests and shit but it did a lot of wrong too
now it's just beating a dead horse for money with no innovation because devs are moronic that can't do simple math(see Diablo next season vid)
Next time mmo's gonna be reborn and peak is when Sword Art Online shit gets invented
MMO's get minmaxxed into being unfun, the only time they are fun in the vacuums that are private servers. The English speaking world vs the Chinese on Light's Hope can't be replicated in these highly regulated games made to please shareholders
MMOs were never good
is poe any good? i want something to play but dont want to play osrs anymore. i liked it because i could grind and watch stuff, but then they started hosting pride events in game.
i need something that scratches that mmo itch, poe seems like itd be fun
Early game is fun. Late game is only fun if you like doing what wiki tells you to do and getting assfricked as soon as you stop following it.
>Late game is only fun if you like doing what wiki tells you
More like the late game is only fun if you like spending more time in PoB than PoE
ah frick, i might as well just play diablo 3 or get d2r at this point
nothing will be spared from this fricking menace, even osg got shit up by troons; that is or was the osrs cc from /vg/
Poe can definitely scratch that itch, but they've been pushing some of that LGBT shit too granted not as much as RuneScape. Also they're owned by tencent. Do you want trannies or chink business practices?
How many times has WoW "died" now?
>it died when TBC
>It DIED with WOTLK
>IT SUPER MEGA DIED WITH CATA
and so on and so on.
Somehow every expansion "kills" WoW. Why is the mmo community such shit doom Prophets. Even Nostrodamus got at least 1 right.
If WoW was doing so amazingly well then why did Blizzard have to get bailed out by Activision?
If WoW was doing so amazingly well then why did Blizzard-Activision have to sell to Microsoft?
The real question is how will the purchase of Blizzard-Activision harm Microsoft?
those are my reasons but there are so many reasons.
the main issue is that the advent of the huge spike in popularity with MMOs coincided with it being the early internet. MMOs were a fascinating concept since you could play games with a hundred people on screen even if the game would barely handle that and then lag to shit if everyone started casting. Talk to all these people from all over the world and discover things in a vast world with them??? Sign me up.
Issue 2 is that all of those MMOs decided end game focus was the only way to go. You can either add new treadmills for player retention every patch cycle, or you could overhaul the main world and make big changes as if the world was actually alive and being molded by the playerbase and story at hand. Which one sounds more enticing when you're trying to make the most money with the least amount of effort possible? Players decided they liked all their effort being meaningless and restarting their grind just to have it all taken away again for whatever reason.
Issue 3 is that everything technically serves the same purpose MMOs did. You have a lot of features that were used as prime player retention in MMOs repurposed into keeping people in all sorts of other genres. This is mostly due to the evolution of games and essentially what companies learned from mobile games when it comes to easy money. So, with all the games giving you brain dead grind based content which ones are you going to choose? The ones with autistic requirements to actually play the "meat" of the game, tons of screen clutter, and an over reliance on your teammates having a functioning brain, or shit like CoD where you can just grind out ranks, free skins and battlepass content.
>Update cycles can never keep up with gacha games or battle royal games
>Game doesn't encourage community formation
>No real connection to your character beyond /age
You can fix the first one by focusing on perennial content, or giving players methods to make their own fun. Even adding modifiers to existing content for a few weeks can keep people happy between patches.
The second problem is harder to fix, and ties in to the third. There are obvious answers like no lfg, but I don't know if that's the ultimate solution. I think the problem is homogeneity. Everyone thinking, feeling and doing the same thing. You need opposition in an MMO. Whether it's Horde v Alliance, server v server or something as simple as "my class is the best". Opposition automatically creates communities. However most MMOs these days try to give everyone as close to the same experience as possible. When you can just watch the patch on YouTube and see the exact same experience you would find in game, what's the point? Man I could talk about MMOs all day.
The most fun I've had with a modern MMO is WoW during Legion. Yes the Legendaries were a problem before anyone brings them up, but Class Halls and the Mage Tower made me invested in my character in a way no other modern MMO has managed. Including WoW in later expansions.
That's because Legion was content rich. It didn't exactly have the most content a wow expansion could have, but it definitely had the most meaningful player progression and class fantasy in regards to class specific locations and artifact quest lines and just all the quests in general. It seemed like the actual next step for wow apart from flopping on legendaries and how shit the artifact grind was in the early patches. But that was also the beginning of the end. People most likely look at MoP and Legion and go "man if only my class/spec played like it did back then"
Legion gave everyone their peak class fantasy. Mage tower actually provided something meaningfully challenging even if you did it in later patches. Legendaries + Tier + Artifact + Crucible all lined up to make you the most powerful fricking incarnation of a being ever and your class played smooth as butter.
And then all of a sudden BFA strikes and people learn the harsh reality of the gear treadmill, and the harsher reality of what it means to lose all identity. Tons of things added to the GCD, your tier was shot down and you only get to have rinky dink little dogshit powers from gear that didn't really have much actual choice for most of the specs. Class specific hubs become useless, custom made per spec artifact weapons get their power sucked so you get a necklace you can't see on your character instead. Tier bonuses and extra legendary stuff ripped away so now absolutely all of your player ability augments are gone, your class doesn't function anywhere nearly as good, and depending on what class you were playing your rework was put on hold for like two major patches. BFA had an alright world but the gameplay at launch was absolutely abysmal. It had zero regard for any of the shit that made WoW good. Like what the frick is up with the GCD change? The smoothest tab target experience somehow gets a shit ton of unnecessary buffers to the gameplay? Sorry for the rant I fricking hate early BFA
>Game doesn't encourage community formation
As can be seen in this thread, zoomers hate codependent game design and open-world PvP. There's no sense of community because don't each other outside of instanced content. There are no in-game conflicts or drama that can actually be settled in-game, so everyone goes to discord to shit talk without fear of being banned.
Open world pvp doesn't build communities though, unless you mean clan mafia which is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a game.
WaR , AoC and LA2 had great PvP comunities
>power tripping ego homosexuals more concerned with rmt than anything else
Do tell me more about great pvp communities
"1o1 me, bro" , the post
Yes they do. Conflict makes people come together. I am really curious as to what MMOs you people played that absolutely traumatised you so much when it comes to open-world PvP
The only modern open world PVP I've seen is clan gank bulldozing autism where the closest thing to "coming together" is becoming a janitor for the local mafia.
What game?
>open-world PvP
mate you really need to get it out of your head that open world pvp will be the end all be all in MMOs going forward. It won't. Out of all the pvp in every game genre, MMO pvp is the worst. 0 people, and I mean 0 people except delusional morons like yourself, think that going up against the whale streamers and their parasocial army to get ganked over and over with 0 chance of recourse because gear almost always sways outcomes heavily, in 2023, is fun. This isn't pre-Trammel Ultima anymore, you will have no life minmax data farmers literally sucking the life out of open world pvp MMOs, it's just not going to happen and your zoomer boogeyman has zero influence on it
the reason is diversity, gays, wymynz
MMORPGs had bad gameplay but good connectivity. Now I don't want to be connected to the types of people who play MMORPGs, so they kept the bad and lost the good.
When I say I want to experience the WoW of 2004 again, I don't mean that I want the gameplay to be shallow and the players to be bad, I mean that I want the players to be middle to upperclass white people who regard the game world with an optimistic wonderment instead of undignified and vulgar foreigners who regard the game world as a place to demonstrate how much they can spend on RMT'd ingame wealth and "flex on" people.
MMOs were the one genre where playing with normies unironically made the experience much better.
Nowadays it's only autismos and schizos left so the concept of human interaction is dead, combat/objective focused content is sweat central and the worlds feel dead.
Because the playerbase is too afraid to speak a single word to anyone outside of their third-world troony secret discord server, refuse to play with anyone who doesn't have the optimized build and strategy before the content is even officially released and nobody interacts with anything but the few activities deemed "optimal" by some e-celeb.
Normies made mmo worlds feel alive.
Note that "normies" in this case does not refer to people with politics brainrot, sjws or leftists, but actual normal people like the ones we used to play mmos with in the mid 00s.
Most of the "normal people" as you describe them have been turned into the brainrot schizos that you hate, and the remaining sane ones play games casually and jump from AAA slop to AAA slop, following whatever the topic of the week game is.
Is there a better filter than the middle-class barrier?
>Force Players' Hands
Huh? Are mmo clowns Starcraft players now?
how do weapons work in WoW now? i havent played since legion but i missed getting new weapon drops the most
You equip it and then attack enemy with it.
i mean like do you find new weapons now or is it still 'here is your xpac weapon to upgrade via dailies when you hit level cap'
What would you think of a grind-less PVP centric keyboard masher game? There is no leveling system, just kits that you can go raid with.
So Eve? Well, it has leveling, but that leveling is entirely passive.
doesnt that end up being some sort of a lobby arena game then?
gw2 arena
Classic mmos are dying precisely because of people who can play mmos. Tryhard nolifers setting moronic goals of power and control in a fricking videogame. Even pve inevitably gets boring because some autist will optimize all the fun out of it. Then there's "competition" and meta and whales.
And which MMOs are you referring to?
>you don't have imagination because you don't want to make your game have the same copy pasted systems from every other gram!
Weak b8
Comprehension is really not your strongest point is it?
Levels have no worldy effect on your character, they are there only for marking progression points and challenge rating. They make sure you don't one shot everything and are somewhat matched with your current enemies.
If everything your fought were gods past level whatever that story would be moronic because there would be so many gods that it wouldn't make sense for normal people to exist.
How to resurrect MMOs: make a fun MMO.
I just wanted a mmo where I could feel like a small part of a huge world again, make it a 100 hour adventure full of horizontal progression and replayability and make seasonal servers. Also make it so that people need other people to progress so that everytime you're playing, you're finding new people to progress with and make new friendships.
It's that easy, but nobody is doing it, all we have is autismo simulator like ffxiv or wow.
The 3 reasons MMOs are dying:
1. nobody
2. is making
3. a fun MMO
Despite all the crying about MMOs with PvP and how they're gankfest or have servers controlled by a handful of guilds, not one person has yet to say which games they've experienced any of that in, curious.