>Also PS2, it's not snake oil.
FPGA is snake oil, pure and simple. "BRO, WHAT IF WE EMULATE. THE. CHIPS! SO AMAZING, LET'S DROP HUNDREDS ON IT! HAHA LOOK AT YOU NERDS WITH YOUR ROTTING PLASTIC! IT'S NOT EMULATION!"
>NO IT IS NOT!!! We been through this before. >We
Ok, shill. We, Anonymous agree that FPGA is glorified emulation and snake oil tactics to sell overpriced and underpowered tech to idiots.
I can tell you are deeply upset by people referring to your collection as rotting plastic.
>I can tell you are deeply upset by people referring to your collection as rotting plastic.
Not really. You can call my collection rotting plastic and silicon but it will easily outlive most people alive today short of act of God or a fire. I'm simply tired of seeing the same buzzwords and canned insults thrown around by viral marketers and rabble rousers trying to shill their latest and greatest emulation box.
>NO!!! Only you think like that.
Using all caps on a word or sentence does not make your weak argument any stronger, shill. But by all means, try to prove that FPGA is not an elaborate obfuscation of selling shitty emulation boxes to children who do not know any better.
7 months ago
Anonymous
No, it's a lot more than just him
7 months ago
Anonymous
Wrong, moron.
No, just you.
>Also PS2, it's not snake oil.
No one is working on PS2, stop making shit up.
Forget PS2, no one has said that is happening. MARS have said people are working on an open source Dreamcast core which will then be implemented on their hardware, thats all, I'm not sure how that equals any truth being stretched.
Dreamcast isn't perfect in software emaultion but that's becuase its never had hardware engineers using scopes and writing a new hardware tests to reverse engineer the systems and add to the current knowledge base. You don't need to have decap info to create something that is indistinguishable fromt the real thing. I'm sure the DC core wll be great and better than software emulation given who is working on it.
Yes they are working on a PS2 core, they just haven't announced it yet.
Sorg said somewhere there is basically no point of using FPGA to go beyond PS2 era because of reasons I don't remember and it is an enormous amount of work. too I am trying to find the posts.
The handhelds and Wii say otherwise.
MARS however is too slow to do Gamecube, XBox, Wii and New 3DS as the FPGA that MARS uses can only do 400MHz max.
It can do Dreamcast, PS2, PSP, PS Vita as well as the DS, DSi and 3DS, those last 2 need extra PSRam in order to run but DS can be done with the external 8MB PSRam bank however.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Yes they are working on a PS2 core
Cool, I will believe it when I see it. It is an enormous amount of work and expecting an unproven team to deliver is historically a losing move when it comes to boutique /vr/ shit.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Yes they are working on a PS2 core, they just haven't announced it yet.
Let me guess, source is "trust me bro"?
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Yes they are working on a PS2 core, they just haven't announced it yet.
Who exactly is “they”?
They is this posters ass, who also coincidentally works for MARS
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Yes they are working on a PS2 core, they just haven't announced it yet.
Who exactly is “they”?
I agree to this, if only because emulation for most of the current systems on MiSTer is good enough that you don't really need an FPGA or original hardware.
There's exactly 0 footage of the device doing anything. Just say it can play every video game ever made if you're going to say a bunch of bullshit and not back it up. Its all overhyped expectations from people working on it and shills because you know its not going to do Naomi or Dreamcast.
> you know its not going to do Naomi or Dreamcast.
Fixel already has the PowerVR GPU in verilog from another project, the rest of the hardware is now being worked on. Dreamcast will happen, but it was never going to be done for the launch of MARS.
I would just wait until enough people are buying Mars so that MiSTer goes down in price, then buy that instead. Then when they inevitably come out with Mars 2 or whatever Mars will start to go down in price too. Just like regular consoles/phones/tablets etc. I guess
Mister will never go down in price, it's not a competitive market, it's base is the DE-10, which has only gone up even while being subsidized. You morons are so moronic you think the 3rd party sellers selling assembled mister systems are actually the creators or something.
The DE-10 is quite long in the tooth. It is very likely that Intel will cut any cruft on slow selling product lines. Not saying the entry level Cyclone V is slow selling it isn't but they will expect profits. Intel does phase out bargain basement products that require high volume sales faster than the products at the top.
That's the beauty of the mister project, it can just be ported to a more feasible platform when that ever occurs because it's open source and the framework has been re-worked to help with portability.
Absolutely, but I think that is why people are saying what is the difference between that and MARS? MARS they purpose built the platform and got a significant platform upgrade. People are dropping hundreds, beyond the initial DE-10 cost, to get what they want out of mister. So why not have it all hemmed up in an open platform that has the convenience of the hardware being complete on day 1?
I feel like this is one of those things where there's nothing to talk about until it comes out, and wait for someone to take the fall and confirm all the shit.
Using FPGAs for classic consoles that have weird refresh rates and more exacting requirements for input lag I understand.
When you start getting into the 3D era where you can already get hardware accelerated enhancements I don't see much purpose for any special hardware beyond that.
What arm chip is this thing using and will that let them do anything the Mister can't? The Mister is using almost the same chip as the iPhone 4s for the Linux side and it works fine.
Now I'm not the smartest guy around but FPGA emulating consoles with a 3D accelerated GPU like the Dreamcast, much less something crazily massively parallel like the PS2, sounds like a fricking insane pipedream to me. Has this ever been demonstrated in any way?
Sorg said somewhere there is basically no point of using FPGA to go beyond PS2 era because of reasons I don't remember and it is an enormous amount of work. too I am trying to find the posts.
He said it's because when you get to ps2 and beyond cycle accuracy no longer becomes a real issue and he's kind of right, but still would be nice to have accurate representations of those systems for preservation.
Don’t you need decap or leaked technical specifications to properly capture something as FPGA? Has that even been released for all the 5th and 6th gen consoles?
And the ps2 is most definitely not properly captured, and the Dreamcast while good I don’t believe is perfect either, so the mars claims are stretching the truth then are they not?
Forget PS2, no one has said that is happening. MARS have said people are working on an open source Dreamcast core which will then be implemented on their hardware, thats all, I'm not sure how that equals any truth being stretched.
Dreamcast isn't perfect in software emaultion but that's becuase its never had hardware engineers using scopes and writing a new hardware tests to reverse engineer the systems and add to the current knowledge base. You don't need to have decap info to create something that is indistinguishable fromt the real thing. I'm sure the DC core wll be great and better than software emulation given who is working on it.
>FPGA is and has been a pretty hot topic in retro gaming the last couple of years
Hot topic? It's just glorified emulation that pretends to be some super special thing, but again is just basic b***h emulation. The only reason it might be considered a "hot topic" is because shills and people who drank the FPGA Kool Aid post here trying to sell more weak machines.
Yes, hardware emulation is pointless and much more expensive
7 months ago
Anonymous
No, hardware emulation matters.
>Hardware emulation =/= software emulation.
It's all emulation all the way down. Not using original hardware and software? You're just using a pale, emulated imitation. There is nothing wrong with emulation, but don't try to pretend that there is any magical difference between hardware emulation and software.
Hardware emulation is not a pale imitation.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>No, hardware emulation matters.
???
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Hardware emulation is not a pale imitation.
But it is. Hardware emulation is pretending a modern machine is retro hardware. It's putting lipstick on a pig and going "Well this is clearly the superior way the devs intended us to play!" Again, I don't have anything against emulation, but there is a night and day difference between original hardware and software and emulation - all the accuracy in the world does not make the result the same, either.
What aspects do you consider glorified?
>What aspects do you consider glorified?
Claiming that hardware emulation is some magical alchemy that makes FPGA equal to the real deal. People get hyped up on ignorance and misunderstanding and spread misinformation that clouds good discussion like people pissing in a pool.
7 months ago
Anonymous
7 months ago
Anonymous
Ok Snopes.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Equal? No. But an FPGA is objectively and demonstrably a better environment to emulate retro hardware in than what has come before with software emulation.
>Hardware emulation =/= software emulation.
It's all emulation all the way down. Not using original hardware and software? You're just using a pale, emulated imitation. There is nothing wrong with emulation, but don't try to pretend that there is any magical difference between hardware emulation and software.
Remember when people laughed at the PS3 costing $599 when it was cutting edge tech and had a Blu ray player to boot? Now nearly 20 years later peeps are going to pay more than $700 for snake oil
$700 is less than what it would cost to buy all the consoles and computers that it runs
not to mention how much you would have to spend for all the peripherals and flashcarts and ODEs
NTA but are you even using that terminology correctly lmao, how does it only sound good in a vacuum? Outside of the vacuum which is, I’m guessing, real life, it still sounds more convenient to buy one $700 item than hunt down all consoles plus flash carts and modding solutions
I think people are just assuming that if this device costs 700 dollarydoos, then it must do PS2 emulation. I don't think even the devs mentioned or insinuated that, or at least I hope not.
Granted anyone that spends $700 just in the hopes of PS2 emulation deserves to get ripped off. There's chinkhelds that can do PS2 emulation for less, and even if they wanted the ORIGINAL experience on a flat panel they could just buy a PS2 with component cables and an upscaler.
>and even if they wanted the ORIGINAL experience on a flat panel they could just buy a PS2 with component cables and an upscaler.
That's what I'm using for the minute, but it's imperfect. Disc drives fail, and OPL has compatibility issues after you've scratched the surface of the PS2's library. In my own usage, Initial D Special Stage has occasional crashes and muffled/hissing audio after some playtime.
Even an ODE would be a massive improvement for the PS2 scene, but no such thing exists yet.
>I don't think even the devs mentioned or insinuated that, or at least I hope not.
No one has, which is why the fact I'm starting to see it so regularly in these threads is baflling. As if $700 is some threshold that mean the PS2 is suddenly possible, I just can't believe how dumb this community is.
Better doesn’t mean a PS2 core is possible, it is unreasonable to expect that. It took mazamars just under five years to reverse engineer the N64 and that had much more knowledge behind it than the PS2 has. So if someone picks it up tomorrow it’s not like you will playing anything for ages, assuming of course that MARS is even powerful enough to do it, which personally I doubt.
i have a high refresh rate monitor and a controller with microswitch buttons and hall effect sticks
i also have a tiny cheap controller i use with my phone and keep on a lanyard, mostly as a fashion accessory, but also to kill time in lines/waits by having friends play Sonic 2 XL, and Bubsy in Sonic 2
I just want a box that has native composite out and does all the pooy old 8 bit computers
>MiSTer... but it plays DREAMCAST!
Great snake oil guys
Also PS2, it's not snake oil.
>Also PS2, it's not snake oil.
FPGA is snake oil, pure and simple. "BRO, WHAT IF WE EMULATE. THE. CHIPS! SO AMAZING, LET'S DROP HUNDREDS ON IT! HAHA LOOK AT YOU NERDS WITH YOUR ROTTING PLASTIC! IT'S NOT EMULATION!"
NO IT IS NOT!!! We been through this before.
>NO IT IS NOT!!! We been through this before.
>We
Ok, shill. We, Anonymous agree that FPGA is glorified emulation and snake oil tactics to sell overpriced and underpowered tech to idiots.
>I can tell you are deeply upset by people referring to your collection as rotting plastic.
Not really. You can call my collection rotting plastic and silicon but it will easily outlive most people alive today short of act of God or a fire. I'm simply tired of seeing the same buzzwords and canned insults thrown around by viral marketers and rabble rousers trying to shill their latest and greatest emulation box.
NO!!! Only you think like that.
>NO!!! Only you think like that.
Using all caps on a word or sentence does not make your weak argument any stronger, shill. But by all means, try to prove that FPGA is not an elaborate obfuscation of selling shitty emulation boxes to children who do not know any better.
No, it's a lot more than just him
No, just you.
Yes they are working on a PS2 core, they just haven't announced it yet.
The handhelds and Wii say otherwise.
MARS however is too slow to do Gamecube, XBox, Wii and New 3DS as the FPGA that MARS uses can only do 400MHz max.
It can do Dreamcast, PS2, PSP, PS Vita as well as the DS, DSi and 3DS, those last 2 need extra PSRam in order to run but DS can be done with the external 8MB PSRam bank however.
>Yes they are working on a PS2 core
Cool, I will believe it when I see it. It is an enormous amount of work and expecting an unproven team to deliver is historically a losing move when it comes to boutique /vr/ shit.
>Yes they are working on a PS2 core, they just haven't announced it yet.
Let me guess, source is "trust me bro"?
They is this posters ass, who also coincidentally works for MARS
>Yes they are working on a PS2 core, they just haven't announced it yet.
Who exactly is “they”?
what if they were purple?
Wrong, moron.
I can tell you are deeply upset by people referring to your collection as rotting plastic.
I agree to this, if only because emulation for most of the current systems on MiSTer is good enough that you don't really need an FPGA or original hardware.
Enjoy your rotting plastic.
Imagine being proud of being brain dead.
the rotting plastic guy is a massive homosexual. even mister gays hate that gay. please dont hate the mister over that fricker.
There's exactly 0 footage of the device doing anything. Just say it can play every video game ever made if you're going to say a bunch of bullshit and not back it up. Its all overhyped expectations from people working on it and shills because you know its not going to do Naomi or Dreamcast.
https://nitter.net/owlnonymous/status/1726109859014410370/video/3
Woah, it can emulate an 80s arcade game. That's not exactly Dreamcast
> you know its not going to do Naomi or Dreamcast.
Fixel already has the PowerVR GPU in verilog from another project, the rest of the hardware is now being worked on. Dreamcast will happen, but it was never going to be done for the launch of MARS.
>Also PS2, it's not snake oil.
No one is working on PS2, stop making shit up.
My phone runs PS2
I think the idea is that any future FPGA core runs the PS2 a bit better then some hack job fork of a hack job PS2 emulator.
Protip: if you don't want something, don't buy it.
I would just wait until enough people are buying Mars so that MiSTer goes down in price, then buy that instead. Then when they inevitably come out with Mars 2 or whatever Mars will start to go down in price too. Just like regular consoles/phones/tablets etc. I guess
Mister will never go down in price, it's not a competitive market, it's base is the DE-10, which has only gone up even while being subsidized. You morons are so moronic you think the 3rd party sellers selling assembled mister systems are actually the creators or something.
The DE-10 is quite long in the tooth. It is very likely that Intel will cut any cruft on slow selling product lines. Not saying the entry level Cyclone V is slow selling it isn't but they will expect profits. Intel does phase out bargain basement products that require high volume sales faster than the products at the top.
That's the beauty of the mister project, it can just be ported to a more feasible platform when that ever occurs because it's open source and the framework has been re-worked to help with portability.
Absolutely, but I think that is why people are saying what is the difference between that and MARS? MARS they purpose built the platform and got a significant platform upgrade. People are dropping hundreds, beyond the initial DE-10 cost, to get what they want out of mister. So why not have it all hemmed up in an open platform that has the convenience of the hardware being complete on day 1?
Intel are still making the Cyclone 2 which is 4 years older. They aren't discontinuing the cyclone V anytime soon.
FPGA are not iPhones.
Where's my 3 nm process FPGA with 500 million logic elements
Mister is a flat price governed by the base cost of a de10-nano, which is pretty reasonable.
Oh, the mister can be assembled from parts. I honestly didn't know this.
ah jeez dude you know I been taking these pills.....and they make me think the mistah is a good idea........
>unironic Justin Roland "humor"
I feel like this is one of those things where there's nothing to talk about until it comes out, and wait for someone to take the fall and confirm all the shit.
I can get a fire tv for 50$ and get equivalent results
TIME TO PAY UP FOR VIDEO GAMES SWEETIE!
Using FPGAs for classic consoles that have weird refresh rates and more exacting requirements for input lag I understand.
When you start getting into the 3D era where you can already get hardware accelerated enhancements I don't see much purpose for any special hardware beyond that.
I understand dreamcast naomi, at least for the crowd that wants to insert them into arcade cabs
What arm chip is this thing using and will that let them do anything the Mister can't? The Mister is using almost the same chip as the iPhone 4s for the Linux side and it works fine.
Now I'm not the smartest guy around but FPGA emulating consoles with a 3D accelerated GPU like the Dreamcast, much less something crazily massively parallel like the PS2, sounds like a fricking insane pipedream to me. Has this ever been demonstrated in any way?
Sorg said somewhere there is basically no point of using FPGA to go beyond PS2 era because of reasons I don't remember and it is an enormous amount of work. too I am trying to find the posts.
He said it's because when you get to ps2 and beyond cycle accuracy no longer becomes a real issue and he's kind of right, but still would be nice to have accurate representations of those systems for preservation.
Don’t you need decap or leaked technical specifications to properly capture something as FPGA? Has that even been released for all the 5th and 6th gen consoles?
To “properly” capture something is software emualtion requires decap info too.
And the ps2 is most definitely not properly captured, and the Dreamcast while good I don’t believe is perfect either, so the mars claims are stretching the truth then are they not?
Forget PS2, no one has said that is happening. MARS have said people are working on an open source Dreamcast core which will then be implemented on their hardware, thats all, I'm not sure how that equals any truth being stretched.
Dreamcast isn't perfect in software emaultion but that's becuase its never had hardware engineers using scopes and writing a new hardware tests to reverse engineer the systems and add to the current knowledge base. You don't need to have decap info to create something that is indistinguishable fromt the real thing. I'm sure the DC core wll be great and better than software emulation given who is working on it.
>$700
Just buy real hardware that you want at that point.
>this shit passes for a /vr/ thread these days
holy frick, how have the mighty fallen
Complaining about vapourware projects to play retrogames on has been here from the start. Remember the hype for OpenPandora? Ouya?
Yeah I fail to see how this isn’t a /vr/ worthy thread, FPGA is and has been a pretty hot topic in retro gaming the last couple of years
>FPGA is and has been a pretty hot topic in retro gaming the last couple of years
Hot topic? It's just glorified emulation that pretends to be some super special thing, but again is just basic b***h emulation. The only reason it might be considered a "hot topic" is because shills and people who drank the FPGA Kool Aid post here trying to sell more weak machines.
Hardware emulation =/= software emulation.
Yes, hardware emulation is pointless and much more expensive
No, hardware emulation matters.
Hardware emulation is not a pale imitation.
>No, hardware emulation matters.
???
>Hardware emulation is not a pale imitation.
But it is. Hardware emulation is pretending a modern machine is retro hardware. It's putting lipstick on a pig and going "Well this is clearly the superior way the devs intended us to play!" Again, I don't have anything against emulation, but there is a night and day difference between original hardware and software and emulation - all the accuracy in the world does not make the result the same, either.
>What aspects do you consider glorified?
Claiming that hardware emulation is some magical alchemy that makes FPGA equal to the real deal. People get hyped up on ignorance and misunderstanding and spread misinformation that clouds good discussion like people pissing in a pool.
Ok Snopes.
Equal? No. But an FPGA is objectively and demonstrably a better environment to emulate retro hardware in than what has come before with software emulation.
>Hardware emulation =/= software emulation.
It's all emulation all the way down. Not using original hardware and software? You're just using a pale, emulated imitation. There is nothing wrong with emulation, but don't try to pretend that there is any magical difference between hardware emulation and software.
What aspects do you consider glorified?
Why do you morons say fpga is emulation?
Because that's what it is, shill bro
I get banned often here on /vr/ for calling out shills
I stated a fact and fpga is not emulation
Remember when people laughed at the PS3 costing $599 when it was cutting edge tech and had a Blu ray player to boot? Now nearly 20 years later peeps are going to pay more than $700 for snake oil
People pay $30k for a handbag lol, $700 is nothing compared to what people spend on their interests and hobbies.
MARS IS NOT SNAKE OIL!!!! It exists.
https://twitter.com/MARSFPGA/status/1726313688288928009
>snake oil
>rotting plastic
its one guy making all these posts
I started copying the rotting plastic guy.
>MRS
checks out
$700 is less than what it would cost to buy all the consoles and computers that it runs
not to mention how much you would have to spend for all the peripherals and flashcarts and ODEs
That is an argument that only sounds good in a vacuum.
NTA but are you even using that terminology correctly lmao, how does it only sound good in a vacuum? Outside of the vacuum which is, I’m guessing, real life, it still sounds more convenient to buy one $700 item than hunt down all consoles plus flash carts and modding solutions
Yes I am you ESL piece of shit.
in what way?
I don't know what this is but if it can accurately emulate ps2 and dreamcast then it's worth existing
>but if it can accurately emulate ps2
Seriously, where the frick are people getting the idea that PS2 is possible from?
I think people are just assuming that if this device costs 700 dollarydoos, then it must do PS2 emulation. I don't think even the devs mentioned or insinuated that, or at least I hope not.
Granted anyone that spends $700 just in the hopes of PS2 emulation deserves to get ripped off. There's chinkhelds that can do PS2 emulation for less, and even if they wanted the ORIGINAL experience on a flat panel they could just buy a PS2 with component cables and an upscaler.
>and even if they wanted the ORIGINAL experience on a flat panel they could just buy a PS2 with component cables and an upscaler.
That's what I'm using for the minute, but it's imperfect. Disc drives fail, and OPL has compatibility issues after you've scratched the surface of the PS2's library. In my own usage, Initial D Special Stage has occasional crashes and muffled/hissing audio after some playtime.
Even an ODE would be a massive improvement for the PS2 scene, but no such thing exists yet.
>I don't think even the devs mentioned or insinuated that, or at least I hope not.
No one has, which is why the fact I'm starting to see it so regularly in these threads is baflling. As if $700 is some threshold that mean the PS2 is suddenly possible, I just can't believe how dumb this community is.
If you're not watching closely, it's not unreasonable to expect that an FPGA platform much more expensive than MiSTer is also better than it.
Better doesn’t mean a PS2 core is possible, it is unreasonable to expect that. It took mazamars just under five years to reverse engineer the N64 and that had much more knowledge behind it than the PS2 has. So if someone picks it up tomorrow it’s not like you will playing anything for ages, assuming of course that MARS is even powerful enough to do it, which personally I doubt.
i emulate on my general-purpose computers for free
With your $5 generic usb controller and standard desktop LCD monitor?
>surplus office chair
>surplus office 4:3 LCD with no HDMI input
>surplus office PC
>$10 Logitech controller
Yep, it's gaming time.
dangerously based
It may be more powerful than the MiSTer, but that doesn't mean that PS2 emulation would be that much of an easy process or that it'd be out instantly.
I use a ps4 controller and my screen is oiled. Why? You trying to start some shit over it?
i have a high refresh rate monitor and a controller with microswitch buttons and hall effect sticks
i also have a tiny cheap controller i use with my phone and keep on a lanyard, mostly as a fashion accessory, but also to kill time in lines/waits by having friends play Sonic 2 XL, and Bubsy in Sonic 2