All ARPGs have the same problem. They are fun while they are somewhat slow and methodical and while each new gear piece represents a significant growth in power and/or change in gameplay but they turn to cancer once you get to the stage where you're basically just warping around while blowing up the entire screen, hunting for gear that gives you just a few % more stats.
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no anon
the real problem is the power scaling stops
you should just get fast and faster till the maps have to be kilometers wide and the screen keeps zooming out
poe.io ?
maybe
something in unreal is probably the way to do it now that it has nanite
if you've ever seen old headhunter footage where the player is larger than the screen, thats the sort of shit you should end up doing
Play SSFHC ruthless, pussy.
Can I realistically do this as a complete noob without any prior experience or knowledge of the game without looking up guides?
depends on how patient you are
just say "no" next time
thats what the new fans of the genre want so thats what the devs make. players don't give a frick about the journey to max level anymore, they just want to get there asap so they can start grinding like brainrotten mmo-tier drones that they are
Sad but true. The "the game begins at max level" attitude is so fricking moronic and enables lopsided game design.
If you enjoy leveling you might have brain problems.
What a moronic opinion.
Can't be as moronic as being a casual moron who enjoys looking at the scenery and running out of mana constantly.
These games were always about numbers going up, nothing else.
>These games were always about numbers going up, nothing else.
Name an RPG where numbers don't go up when you level up.
Not stats you mouthbreathing mongoloid. Itemization.
>not stats
>literally complained about mana
>no mention of items
just shut the frick up you actual child, you don't know how to talk
That was meant for you
all RPGs that don't have levels.
checkmate, moron.
>if you enjoy playing the game, ur stoopid
Lmao, where do you dumbasses come from?
If you prefer low level sluggish gameplay to even midgame let alone endgame gameplay you have brain problems and should be publicly executed.
this is what being an MMOtroony does to a man's brain
As I said, Diablo 2.
>being pointlessly hostile in a low stakes situation
Welcome to old Ganker, newbie before you stupid fricking feelhomosexuals killed this website.
have a nice day back to your social media hugbox.
>before you stupid fricking feelhomosexuals killed this website
Tourists are the most hostile users this site has ever seen and you're one of them. Telling people to kill themselves wasn't common before you homosexuals shat up this place.
I've been here longer than you've been able to walk.
I didn't tell you to have a nice day, try reading that again you illiterate child.
I've been here since around 2006 and you're a homosexual. You got unreasonably worked up over a civil discussion of ARPs and then sperged out when you got called out for it.
What kind of thin skinned teenage girl are you?
Too much of a pussy to argue my points about the genre so you cry about the no-no words like a b***hmade homosexual?
Get a grip or have a nice day back to facebook.
I don't care about how edgy your posts are, you could post the funky town webm and talk about grinding up Black person babies and I wouldn't give a frick. My problem is the low quality of your post, and your spergish behavior.
Seriously, look at this post
and then look at yours
. Can you tell the difference?
Most of that wall of braindead text is saying the same shit as me, are you an imbecile?
You're a dull-witted bitter man, anon.
It is a waste of time to write like a prancing homosexual when I can get the same point across in two sentences. It is on you that you take offense from that and still attacking me instead of the points I made.
You are the cancer killing this website.
>It is a waste of time to write like a prancing homosexual when I can get the same point across in two sentences.
>It is on you that you take offense from that and still attacking me instead of the points I made.
Take your meds, neither of those things happened.
>caring this strongly about video game preferences
>unable to comprehend why different people would like different things
>being pointlessly hostile in a low stakes situation
wew
If the game is not fun until you reach the mid/end game. It's a shit game period.
There is no reason to have MMO shit grinding that was invented to scam more subscription money out of morons in a mostly singleplayer game.
>If the game is not fun until you reach the mid/end game. It's a shit game period.
I agree, if the pacing is not right there is no reason to play the game. But preferring that part of the game to where you actually have a working character and feel powerful?
Embarrassing.
It depends on the game. As
mentioned. It often gets the the point where you are basically just playing a glorified cookie clicker. At least early game there's usually a hint of resource management, exploration and character building and so on. Mid/End game there's just auto-pilot nothingness.
Imagine being this moronic, PoE race leagues were some of the best years of the game
the opposite actually in actuality
if you don't realize leveling just got moved to endgame gear progression grinds you are completely moronic. modern design just scams morons like yourself with easy level caps that make you feel equal to others.
feeling powerful is where the challenge of the game ends monkey brain. buy another carry.
blame Blizzard
>if you enjoy playing the game in any capacity you might have brain problems
what RPGs do you even like?
Oh nevermind, you've never actually played an ARPG you just like being contrarian for the (you)'s
I like Diablo 2.
Finding good items require farming the end of the game you mongoloid. Shit you find while leveling are very rarely useful at the point when your character is actually fun to play.
Are you brain damaged? Are you 14 or just illiterate?
It doesn't HAVE TO start at the endgame but with games like PoE the design makes it so. Diablo 1 and 2 are fun from the start. PoE's acts are dreadful and you start getting some semblance of fun once you get into maps and it gets more fun as you scale your character and then it stops being fun once you faceroll everything for a bit. On top of that the 3 month league design makes everyone want to get over the acts as fast as possible because it becomes this mandatory chore you have to do for each new character. It cannot be something to enjoy as long as the game is designed like this.
i despise these rushing to max level morons so much its unreal
what the frick are those graphics
It's Diablo 1 anon
It's not.
diablo 1 looked incomparably better.
ARPGs are moronic but not because they need to be 'slow and methodical' frick off with that shit, go play something else. The whole draw of this genre is blowing up screen after screen of mobs
>The whole draw of this genre is blowing up screen after screen of mobs
why should that be the whole appeal of the genre? diablo 1 had nothing like that and it was a huge success. it's like saying the only kind of fps that should be made is modern military shooter.
make diablo 1 today and it would not be a huge success. the only good thing about diablo 1 is the atmosphere, the gameplay is complete shit
games have obviously evolved but back when d1 came out it was kinda amazing
yeah the gameplay hasn't exactly held up and its systems have the depth of a puddle
t. oldgay
Diablo 1 come out 30 years ago, and it set the foundation for the rest of the genre. It already accomplished way more than POE will ever do.
And these morons at GGG can't figure it out. They should've made a rogue like mode with small locations, significant drops and simplified passive tree (like they had in battle Royale). And the game would double its player count. But now this trash heap of a game is slowly dying under its own weight. Fricking hate this garbage and all the hours I've spent on it. PoE2 will be the same fricking over bloated and overcomplicated shit. These cowards should cut atleast 50% of content and add a rogue like mode.
The problem is with developers wanting to make you play the game forever and balancing it around some grindy 'endgame', of course it's going to get boring if all you do is repeat the same shit over and over.
Frick off balding moron and shove your vision up your ass.
Fine, name an RPG where you can't equip new gear when you level up.
most actual RPGs do not have level requirements for equipment, so that point of argumentation is going nowhere sensible.
Never use anything to hide the fact that the gameplay is shit.
Like:
Shit colour all over the screen.
Stat bloat.
ARPGS should have skill-based inputs to perform active skills, so it doesn't just boil down to clicking shit
your loot treadmill potion chugging skinnerboxes aren't action games
ARPGs are a self-defeating genre. We've taken it to the logical conclusion and discovered that there lies a contradiction at the end of the road which nobody has yet overcome.
The goal is to make your character better, to get more gear, to make your character better, right?
But 'better' in an ARPG just means killing things faster and moving faster, so you can essentially boil the goal of the game down to reaching a point where you aren't playing the game. You are actively working to trivialize it to the point where you make no decisions and face no obstacles, where you are essentially just panning across the map in dev-mode watching monsters vaporize and seeing flashing loot drops.
I heard it phrased pretty well once: The goal of any ARPG player is to turn the game into Vampire Survivors, a game which is actively hostile to the concept of gameplay, essentially being one step above an idle game.
So you can see how the entire genre is at odds with itself. The devs want to draw out the period of time before you become the teleporting god machine, but that feels bad because it doesn't change the goal of the player, just pulls it further out of their reach. You can try to explain to them that no, that journey IS the gameplay, but it doesn't change the instinctive reaction, because you're making them do less efficient things for longer before they can reach a point of maximum efficiency, which makes it feel like a waste of time. It's not, but it feels like it is, because players just want to 'get to the endgame', which, as we have previously established, involves ignoring the game itself as much as possible in favour of a skinner box meta experience.
That shit rots the brain. Why bother with the game itself at that point? You could probably just turn on a music visualizer on one screen and excel on the other, type out a bunch of big numbers while watching explosions of colour, and you have pretty accurately recreated the ur-ARPG endgame experience.
I compare ARPG endagmes to gacha games; you have minimal gameplay input and do the same shit over and over again for that 0.1% drop.
Appeals to the same self-destructive impulses, yeah. It's basically exploiting dumbass lizard-brain bugs in human behavior to extract dopamine from nonsense.
I'm not gonna say something like it's a waste of time, because that shit is subjective and some people think all video games are a waste of time, and I've put enough hours into these games that it would be hypocritical of me to do so. Hell, I can even see the appeal to the concept, building a character and then watching it go like winding up a clockwork toy. But I can't shake that feeling that there is something horribly sinister about the whole thing which I find difficult to put into words.
Like at least most games have some kind of narrative or an element of mastery to them. ARPGs tend to degenerate very quickly into a stale gameplay loop supported solely by feelings of progression rather than any active engagement with the game.
It's a shame, because the simplistic yet satisfying ARPG gameplay can be fun in the right circumstances.
I wish that instead of just being wannabe MMOs, more of them tried to be more like actual RPGs like Divine Divinity.
But they don't need to be, you don't have to let the player become a walking erase tool. Making enemy AI braindead is a design decision, not a genre defining element.
Diablo had enemies that could permanently frick your character up if you didn't pay attention.
What's fun in modern ARPGs like PoE though is league play, racing against other players during reset and experiencing it from the beginning with a fresh set of rules.
Standard players are mutants though, I don't understand what drives them.
You're right, but the problem is that players who have played one of the ultra-fast skinner box ARPGs almost universally tend to regard that as the endgame that they should be working towards, which results in resentment towards developers who 'won't let them go fast'. They want to remove the challenge and obstacles and decisions because they see being forced to engage with the game as a failure on their part for not having a good enough character.
It's not rational, but there's a cognitive dissonance which grips the mind of a lot of dedicated fans of this genre where they can understand that reaching the goal will invalidate the game entirely and basically render it not worth playing, but still feel an impulsive need to reach that point, and then they trap themselves with sunk-cost fallacy. I know because I've been there.
Sure, but that doesn't address any of my points, and fundamentally though they might be long-lasting, I don't think they do it in a way that is healthy or conducive to engaging gameplay so much as tricking people into continuing to play them.
>a self-defeating genre.
they're literally one of the oldest game genres with some of the most successful and long-lasting games.
[laughing Vampire Survivors noises]
Accurate post. I think risk of rain streamlines and condenses the ARPG experience quite well. Vampire survivors similar but too much.
Devs should focus on improving the mechanical side of the gameplay.
Stuff like not having to hold left click for every single action, being able to move in every direction with the keyboard and being able to move out of enemy attacks, it should be moving towards more involved action games.
it's a bit surprising more games haven't experimented with wads+mouse control scheme
it worked pretty darn well in bloodline champions/battlerite
I've been wondering for a while why GrimDawn/Titan Quest/POE don't allow allow you to just move using awsd.
It's such an obvious thing to do, perhaps they are still stuck on their mentality of copying Diablo 2 so close that it never even occurred to them.
Same thing with other archaic remnants of that era, such as having an obligatory desert/jungle zone, or having skills that replace other identical but inferior ones, etc
Isn't that kind of how they play with a controller? I've heard a lot of people prefer it to M&K, even when playing on PC.
I also think there was a game called Victor Vran that tried to do it, but it was pretty mediocre.
I can't imagine aiming being good on a controller unless you're playing a build that shits out projectiles or uses autoaiming skills
not that I've ever tried it
Whatever you are talking about is named "twin-stick shooter". It also exists in pc environment with games like Alien Shooter, Alien Swarm and derivative as Helldivers, Magicka, if you are more into the fantasy setting.
Please, stick to that genre and don't pollute other communities.
Somebody has a tremendous lack of creativity.
he's not wrong, those gays wanting wsad mouse want dual joysticks
Are there any decent twin stick shooters out there that has a lot of similar loot focused and character building similar to Diablo?
Honestly, WASD and mouse is way superior to a gamepad when it comes to these games. I don't know why so many of them have a "please use a controller :)" message at startup.
because it's not superior it's inferior, should be obvious but i guess it's not
Judging by the insane amount of auto aim in most of them, I don't see how.
If you need to point in a direction accurately, a mouse is infinitely better than an analog stick, similar to how it is in an FPS.
I think it's mostly auto-aim in games like D3/4. Still not on the level of a twin stick shooter obviously, but still a bit more tactile than "click with mouse". Or so I've heard.
brainlet take
I bet you're a console peasant
but me and my brother would co-op the Alien Syndrome remake on Wii, it's on PSP too, it's pretty good, find a partner
Try Alien Shooter.
As for why "please, use controller" - there are two types of aim control for such games - with cursor, which makes mouse overly superior, or with "directed laser", which makes stick superior, as you cannot choose destination with second type of controls, but only direction. Blame consoles for moving secons type into mainstream same way as blame mmo adhd endless arena portals gays for mainstreaming mindless "endgame" in favour of normal gameplay for diabloids.
Even with a laser aiming is still faster or more accurate I've found. I mean I've made my own twin stick shooter so I've experimented a lot with different types of aiming, be it virtual cursor or just directional.
I mean I can sort of understand it if the developers want players to use a controller because it was designed with a controller in mind, similar to how some FPS games are piss easy on M&K because they were calibrated for controllers.
So diablo "genre" is defined just by shitty camera and controls. I see.
Changing the control scheme a bit doesn't suddenly change a diabe-girlke into a twinstick shooter.
>The goal is to make your character better, to get more gear, to make your character better, right?
Wrong for old arpgs, right for d3 and later entries. Making character "better" was to defeat big bad guy and big bad guys in the end. Gearing and leveling was only an instrument, not a goal. Same for platformers - while there were score points in many of them for not dying, not getying damage, clearing fast etc, it was optional goal for a complete no-lifers, which always were minority even within nerds.
So, for arpg goal shift had happened. And AFTER the shift whatever had emerged had been taken to "logical conclusion".
Default main goal was to defeat big bad guy in the end of the plot. Secondary goal was to defeat every other big bad guy, sometimes stronger, than main baddie, but still optional.
Again, gearing and leveling, jumping and punching, grinding and grinding (for jrpg) and other ways of defeating the bad guy, was only WAYS of doing it, until guys with online services had decided, that they need to hold players online and paying as long as possible. So now the playerbase, who had played old titles, try to play new ones like PoE only to find out in confusion, that new games are very shallow until endgame and are either completely mindless in the endgame or are oriented on excel-sheeters, who like to sit and calculate 0.00 percentage dps differences. Not that this games are bad on their own, it's a new subgenre, but whatever was left of crpg in terms of tactics was completely replaced with dps, not being oneshotted, speedrunning and, in several cases, blinks a.k.a. dark souls invul rolls without stamina.
So, problem is that subgenre fitting for relatively small auditory is bring advertised as entire genre to attract bigger audience - which leads to frustration, pain and adhd people considering, that "genre was improved", when it was just reinvented, "deconstructed" and simplified for everyone except excel-sheeters, mentioned above.
If you're not a turboautist focused on minmaxing some cookie cutter build, ARPGs are great fun. The problem is people trying to optimise every single aspect of their build instead of just experimenting around with less-than-perfect builds and having fun
diablo-like arpg fans are mentally ill. their fav game is one where youtubers do videos of "this is what i got for 10000 mephisto runs!"
Ready to get flamed, but Lost Ark is unironically the most fun gameplaywise. I know it is a KMMO with horrible gacha elements, but the raids make the endgame fun and difficult.
THere are many different stages of fun in ARPGs, imo. I don't consider getting too strong a problem since when you're that fast you can find gear for alts and such to make the second round a little smoother
if you want to fix the arpg genre you have to start with the realisation that people invented diablo 2's endgame in their head because they like the game so much that they wanted an excuse to play more
nowadays its taken for granted that the genre is about powertripping, builds, clearing the screen, loot farming etc but there was a time when people just played these games because they were actually fun games. the first person to go back and resdiscover those qualities in d1/d2 that are now missing from the rest of the genre (while leaving the janky bullshit behind) will stike gold
D2 is the most fun when you play it like once or twice a year, go HC and challenge yourself to kill Hell Baal. Once you're done you can drop it until the next time. No point in grinding gear if you already beat the game.
>inb4 muh uber trist
frick off
That's what I don't get. Like, fair enough if you are grinding in a multiplayer game to get an edge in a competitive match against other opponents. But singleplayer/co-op? If you've already beaten the hardest difficulty and done everything there is to do. Why grind for more power you clearly don't need?
There's some sort of satisfaction to be gained from melting your enemies endlessly. It is cool to see your character grow in power. It is great when you finally get that build enabling unique. Ultimately that satisfaction is short lived. You need more and you'll eventually hit a wall.
I used to enjoy it more but nowadays I feel like it's better for me when I engage with the game in a different manner. It's just a shame that you can't play a lot of builds at all since you don't have some mandatory uniques. Mods like PoD and PD2 help a bit but now that D2R is out I find it hard to return to the old version.
PoE prolongs the grind with the mapping system essentially adding another game after you're done with the 10 acts but even there once you beat the content you're sort of just done.
Diablo 2 allowed you to get to level 99, but the game was essentially over at 80 tops.
the end game for it was making a new character on hardcore and trying to take on the uber bosses when you were good enough.
opposite for me. the boring plodding start is the worst part and only feels good as a measure of the progress you've made into the endgame. i fast drop PoE leagues where they nerf everything and getting to that warping around endgame stage takes too long.
Yes. There are almost always was baal-run MMO morons, who had just wished for the endless survival arena. While this mode is nothing bad on it's own, as it allows you to play the game a little longer, most arpgs had followed diablo 3 path with making this arena the main gameplay mode. Unfortunately, MMOs like Diablo 3 and soon 4, Path of Exile and other Last Epochs have their main audience being mmo morons, so games like Sacred would not happen for quite a while now. Enjoy what we already have.
This type of
>ARPG
Simply forgot the key to any good RPG: Some level of feeling as if you are in the world.
D1 and D2 both immerse you well, and you are brought into the different settings.
Have not played D3 so cannot comment.
POE the environment and associated lore are lifeless.
The Last Epoch is a little better, but not enough.
The art has to be better, and the place has to have a good reason to justify itself. Chasing (I forget who it was) around in D2, with the FMVs, was all-important for the game to work.
Most players are not autists who grind through every difficulty. Most simply play normal and stop. Make normal worth playing, or the game is worthless.
>All ARPGs have the same problem
No. Only diablo-likes have this
Stop using ARPG to only refer to diablo-likes, this shit was always tucking dumb
>Only diablo-likes have this
>in reality diablo doesn't have this problem
Only PoE-likes have this problem. Diablo was slow, diablo-likes like Fate or Torchlight are slow.
>PoE-likes
Median-likes. PoE developers include Median developers, who had tried to make d2 exactly what poe is now.
they're synonyms
I have absolutely no idea how people find these games entertaining
>They are fun while they are somewhat slow and methodical
Except they are never methodical
They are braindead easy cookie clickers from the start and just get faster paced
how many shit threads do you need in Ganker for us to keep telling you the same, shill
poe is garbage
go back to the containment thread
just wait for Moon's ARPG
>Moon
Who is this and what games he already made?
the ori games. the studio is basically an ex AAA all-star team
Ori was nice and ori2 was good improvement. Is there any time window for their ARPG?
Ori
>some artsy indie platformer shit
why should I expect them to be capable of making a good ARPG?
>artsy
just because it looks great doesnt mean it can be reduced to an "artsy" platformer. it has the best movement in any 2d platformer ever made, and it has some of the best platforming ever made as well. it is a great game.
not that I know of
it doesn't look that great to me and platformers are shit as a genre
even if it's the greatest platformer ever made why would that mean they can make a good ARPG
>passion-driven studio filled with the top talent from AAA studios that left to chase their passion
gee, I wonder
>where you're basically just warping around while blowing up the entire screen, hunting for gear that gives you just a few % more stats.
The opposite is even worse, just play V Rising to see what I mean. Even basic noob area trash enemies remain damage sponges at endgame, the only way to get better gear is beat bosses.
What's fun about ARPGs (to me at least) is discovering things.
Abilities, gear, monsters and maps even, story... When you remove all that and they become "let's see if I can take this damage sponge" they get repetitive and boring.
That's why I hate when updates show in detail what they add. It's like I've already seen it I don't need to go for it.
>That's why I hate when updates show in detail what they add. It's like I've already seen it I don't need to go for it.
I dislike this trend too, PoE patch notes should be way less detailed than they are. They recently stopped doing their "developer manifestos" and people got all angry about it and I don't understand why
I just play until my characters are very strong but it takes a lot of grind for a tiny upgrade and sometimes come back a few years later to do it again with a different build
I think that is why there are seasons in ARPG games