Apparently NiGHTS was written entirely in Assembly and the code was completely worthless to anyone trying to use it for something other than NiGHTS. It was never "Stolen" or "Used" for SonicXtreme because it wasn't something they could use.
The whole Naka threw a tantrum and killed SonicXtreme story is just another lie from former Sega of America and STI members.
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This homosexual is the very opposite of a trustworthy professional. His twitter is irrelevant and only other homosexuals follow him.
The bastard 'confirmed' a thing or two y'all're cheering on about for the past week or so, now this is the thing you don't wanna hear?
It's because it shatters the narrative they've been clinging to for decades. He was an easy scapegoat to blame Sonic Xtreme's failure on. Now they have to accept that the people at Sega of America and STI were incompetent and lied to them about the NiGHTS engine fiasco.
Why specifically lie about that? The story is already that the game was coming along, but was cancelled because the wrong version got demo'd to the Japanese higher-ups.
Seems like an excuse to me.
SoA and STI never lied.
It's fricking American homosexuals in the internet who hate Japan and especially hate Naka who blew shit out of proportion.
These kind of homosexuals know nothing about Sonic X-Treme's development at all.
>In April, Sega executive vice president Bernie Stolar approached STI and asked what he could do to help the game meet its deadline. At Wallis' suggestion, he provided the tools and source code for Sonic Team's 3D Saturn game Nights into Dreams.
>Two weeks later, Stolar requested that the team stop using the engine, as Naka had reportedly threatened to leave Sega if it were used.
>Senn said he understood Naka's interest in maintaining control over the Sonic Team technology and the Sonic franchise, and that "he must have felt very strongly about it he was willing to even threaten to quit".[6] Sonic Team was developing its own 3D Sonic game using the Nights engine, which may have motivated Naka's threat.[19] The loss of the Nights engine cost the Sonic X-treme team weeks of development.[2][9]
You don't need to invent bullshit to hate on Naka but these autistic homosexuals cling to the most inoffensive shit possible for some moronic reason because they are inbred morons.
You will never see them mention the Peter Moore incident or the worst one that 2003 Interview where he shat all over Yasuhara(who you know was the biggest reason the classic sonic games were as good as they were).
>You will never see them mention the Peter Moore incident or the worst one that 2003 Interview where he shat all over Yasuhara
Both of these are in this very thread.
Why is the rate of mentally illness so high on this board? Everyone seems to exist in their own reality and half the posts are "gotchas" directed at something that is only in their own head.
why did Naka hate Stolar so much if he was threatening to leave? Was Bernie working for someone else at the time?
>y'all're
You some kind of hydro-city slicker?
Say "you're" next time. "You" can be singular or plural.
>you're
That aint proper English on these boards.
English allows for tripple contractions and there's no universal format for an imageboard with anonymous posters. You do not possess knowledge of forum etiquette you are not an oldgay now stop posting. Just for shits and gigs I'll inform you that can and may share synonymous auxillary definitions. You seem like the kind of obnoxious c**t who would care.
Frick off back to r*ddit you fricking turbo homosexual.
>learning how to spell is r*eddit
you have confirmed yourself as an unwelcomed newbie. please leave the thread.
>maybe if I cry people will listen to me
Are you for real?
"You" is intended to be plural only, in fact (also object-tense).
Good news! You can download a browser extension that filters any Ganker posts containing your trigger words. Self care is important and you are valid!!!
Ever since squeenix dumped him, he's been on massive amounts of copium. Everyone who claims to be cheering for him is just trolling. Just like you are now.
This. He's like Inafune: another former lackey that got idolized as a god because they were involved in a big name project and somehow ended up being the only one who gets credit for the series' existence.
Naka's been portraying himself as a victim over the past few days, he's not gonna villainize himself over what's probably one of the most infamous cancelled games ever. It's pretty much a "he-said-she-said" deal. All we can really take away from this is Sega was too caught up in their regionalism to survive in an increasingly globalized gaming industry. Sega has learned, but its fans haven't. If only the other branch got their way, we'd all be playing Streets of Rage 12 on the Sega Saturn 4.
People cheered it on because it was funny to see such a prolific figure confirm it on Twitter dot com. But it's been confirmed for a long time.
>we'd all be playing Streets of Rage 12 on the Sega Saturn 4
Shenmue VR
Panzer Dragoon Wars
Nights: Dream Maker
>sony please before you die can you tell me what you put in your sauce it tastes so good
>y'all're
t. coastal Black personhomosexual that can't name a single southern state capital
>naka-san btfo’s “hydracity” homosexuals
>seething “hydracity” homosexuals want to cancel him
Mad cause Naka btfo some homosexual youtuber you took as gospel.
>btfo some homosexual youtuber
What Youtuber? Names please.
Sega Lord X.
Every single one who covered Sonic X-Treme.
he's a hack fraud
Yeah this guy doesn't sound psychotic at all.
>"Actually the game was initially supposed to be called Sonic 3 & Nakals"
Doesn't Yuji Naka want to cancel Naota Oshima currently?
Yeah, he blurred him out of an old picture. It's not even clear why since the only thing he seemed to work on him with recently was as a character designer for Balan.
If he was this psychotic now then I wonder how bad he must've been to work under back then.
>If he was this psychotic now then I wonder how bad he must've been to work under back then.
When he threw his tantrum over Sonic 2 and went back to Japan almost half the people he brought with him stayed in America so they wouldn't have to keep working with him.
>Yeah, he blurred him out of an old picture.
You sure that's not just a misunderstood "Jap-respecting-privacy" thing? They're kind of weird about in ways that Westoids aren't.
If that was the case, he would've blurred/cropped everyone else on the picture.
Not to defend Naka, but Ohshima set up Arzest who were working on Balan, so it's possible he was one of the people talking shit about Naka behind his back and encouraged SE to cut him out of the project.
i mean, even assuming all that were true, it doesn't make NiGHTS any less of a tin-eared piece of shit that had no business leading the saturn. so i don't know where your throwing shade at SoA is coming from
>i don't know where your throwing shade at SoA is coming from
For years people have been trying to claim Naka killed Sonic Xtreme by throwing a tantrum and not letting them use the NiGHTS engine. That story came from former Sega of America employees.
But as usual it seems that story was another tall tale that didn't actually happen.
Trying to claim? He fricking literally said it himself you fricking weeb apologist!
Here we have the moron SoA cultist.
Get lost, you give 90s SoA and STI a bad name with your fanfiction bullshit.
nights competed well with the ps1 along with sega rally but sony had crash 2 and destruction derby 2 along with all these others sequals, Saturn needed nights 2 the next year. Bang, bang, bang, ship those sequals out.
Judging by how badly sonic spinball was programmed there could be some truth but some of the prototypes on sonic saturn look good.
>nights competed well with the ps1
in what fricking universe?
let's pretend japan is the only market worth talking about for some reason. nights didn't crack the top 20 on its year of release. in fact the only shaturn game to break the 1996 top 20 in japan was sakura wars. then by 1997 there were no shaturn games in the top 20 at all, it was DOA.
It's spelt "sequel", with an e, man.
Yuji Naka is a
Cool guy
>Yuji Naka is a
father to me. It doesn't matter if I wasn't born from him. He quit Sega and lived on savings just to be around while I grew up. So shut your fricking mouth before talking anything about dad. That's right, I said "dad". Frick your blood ties!
>Yuji Naka is a
...baby.
>15 now
not anymore
>Haha remember this funny shit from a few years back?
>*checks date*
Jesus Christ, time flies. But yeah by now I assume she goes by Amber and has legally cut all ties with the parents. Can't blame her.
>you can't reverse engineer Assembly into C
such a terrible liar
>Reverse engineer Assembly into C
Sure you can do that, but if you're on a time crunch and said assembly is entirely built around a very specific thing it's not going to be that useful or worthwhile to do.
That’s not what he said.
I kind of admire how he's burning bridges like this.
He's actually more sincere than a lot of japanese developers who usually hide this kind of drama unless it's in some obscure interviews.
yeah, its not very often you see Japanese devs being out and open about their feelings like this in a public setting. They're always told to keep their mouths closed and not rock the boat to maintain a status quo.
Much as I'm iffy about Naka, its pretty ballsy.
This dude is having a psychotic breakdown in real time via Twitter.
Reminder that Sonic X-Treme was never going to be good: https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/8132140/
>#q8133220
Even if we take Naka at his word,that doesn't necessarily discreditvthe story entirely. It could be that it was soneone else, not Naka, who objected to it. Sega's internal miscommunication was/is legenday.
what the frick
Naka may be a dick, but I do believe him about this.
Sonic Xtreme was a joke and western devs were really salty that their games failed.
I remember another developer, the guy who created Eternal Champions, blaming the Japanese for the failure of his shitty SF-MK hybrid as the Japanese refused to promote that piece of shit and chose to focus their marketing and budget on Virtua Fighter instead. I mean, how crazy someone must be to believe Eternal Champions could compete with frickin' Virtua Fighter?
While the western devs were wasting time and resources with experiments and techdemos like they were some shitty group of euro Amiga developers, the Japanese were actually creating good games.
Jesus, Sega would've been out of their mind to not promote Virtua Fighter given how much better it looked compared to Eternal Champions.
Also remember that recent interview of a SEGA of America employee where he admitted that everyone there hated Gunstar Heroes and the game was almost not released if didn't insist about it. They were always clueless about what a good game was and only cared about huge sprites and realism.
>SoA almost didn't publish one of Trashure's shitty overrated games
Based yanks.
Gunstar didn't sell ya fricking nerd.
Gunstar Heroes was not a big hit to be fair.
Most of Treasure's stuff never sold that well unfortunately.
Honestly and without being a dick I think that the only good game from any of Sega if America developers without the help from Sega japan was Comic Zone and yes we where talking about this with a friend of mine and, how and why in the frick Sega of Japan would promote a shitty SF clone over fricking VF? Like come the frick on dude.
Also seeing the recent shitstorm that Elden Ring caused with western developers calling it a poor game it could be that many of this stories are lies and it's just western developers being dicks about the Japanese games selling better than their own games.
Both Vectorman games were pretty good too. Not amazing, but decent.
They make it sound like Sega did no promo for Eternal Champions which is ridiculous. It was in all the game mags, Ads were in comics and on tv they even did a 7-11 Slurpee promo that you got Eternal Champion temp tattoos. The truth is it wasn't good enough to compete.
According to the SOA developers, SOJ cancelled Eternal Champions 3 (the one they were doing on the Saturn) cause they didn't want it competing with Virtua Fighter as a launch title for the console, which made no sense, considering they also published Golden Axe: The Duel around the same time.
>Eternal Champions 3
Wait, there was a second one? I always thought the Sega CD one was just an updated more polished version of the Genesis one.
>considering they also published Golden Axe: The Duel around the same time.
Golden Axe is a Japanese IP so it makes perfect sense actually
Why do western devs keep blaming Sega for their failure?
>SoJ cancels Eternal Champions 3 for the Saturn
>SoA cancels everything else for the Saturn
Probably because Sega causes everything it touches to turn into shit.
>nights programming is so special that it's impossible to use it for anything
What's funny about that statement is it's kind of a self own. If you're building a game engine that is so esoteric it can't possibly be used for anything else you're being inefficient as hell.
>If you're building a game engine that is so esoteric it can't possibly be used for anything else you're being inefficient as hell.
That doesn't make any sense. It's not efficient to make a generalized engine for a single property/product. Literally what's the point if you're not going to use what you implement for the game you're making. Better to make something particular and optimal for a system that's constrained like that.
Because as we all know, NiGHTS was followed by a string of hit sequels, right?
Lolling@the copium overdose itt. Japan fricked up, they killed their own company, you lost. Get over it.
>Because as we all know, NiGHTS was followed by a string of hit sequels, right?
Are you moronic? It wasn't and that's the entire point I just made. It's a one off. You don't build generalized engines for one offs since that's a waste of everything. Time, money, and usually runtime resources.
Tell that to nip king who's purposefully describing it as an "engine" then
He's not a native English speaker and he's calling it "nights program" which is appropriate since that's what it is. It runs nights for the saturn.
I'm guessing this pedantry is some kind of deflection since it has nothing to do with the technical or rationale aspects. It's still a game engine even if it's just the nights engine which runs the few nights games, and it still makes more practical sense to write a single program for a specific embedded system than try and write something generic for that platform when your intention is to make 1 game in it and move on to not only new concepts, but likely new hardware.
You have literally zero idea how engines work. If it's modular enough to run multiple distinct levels and bonus levels, then it's modular enough to be used in a sequel. Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time run on different versions of the same engine because even as moronic as the Mario 64 devs were (mostly just that one guy), they still had the sense to separate specific sections of gameplay logic from the engine itself so it could be used in another situation. Yuji Naka is a complete hack, and his embarrassing mobile app that was broken on release because he couldn't figure out Unity is proof of that.
>You have literally zero idea how engines work. If it's modular enough to run multiple distinct levels and bonus levels, then it's modular enough to be used in a sequel.
Not only did nobody say otherwise, none of what you wrote really makes any kind of point. It reads like inane ramblings.
It doesn't have to be portable to other platforms, especially back then, but you still want it reusable to the extent that it can be reused, even for something as basic as a sequel. You wouldn't want a situation where a Nights 2 had to totally reinvent the wheel, which is what he's essentially saying would have to happen.
>You wouldn't want a situation where a Nights 2 had to totally reinvent the wheel, which is what he's essentially saying would have to happen.
Regardless of what developers of today want/think, this was standard practice for game development in Japan at the time.
>Sequel? How about we throw the source code and all assets in the trash lmao
So I believe it to be true.
No it wasn't. OoT has a lot in common under the hood with Mario 64.
I forgot that no other Japanese game company existed besides Nintendo and that exceptions disprove the norm.
You made a false statement and I offered an example showing that. Get pissy somewhere else.
>false statement
You propose one exception and act as if it was somehow the standard when there are countless examples of neglect from the same era and region. In a thread where a Japaneses producer himself is saying this is how he did it for his.
I guess he's lying and only Nintendo existed. Assuming this isn't bait, you might be moronic.
Are you seriously trying to argue that the entirety of Japanese programming was neglectful in order to defend Naka-sensei?
>entirety
No, I'm not. That's your strawman you just made up.
As I said, the standard practice of the time was to just move on. Most game studios in Japan didn't consider their projects to be significant enough to archive, preserve, or carry forward.
You're looking at the top of the top and acting as if that was somehow what the majority of companies did.
Even famous games were not treated well, this isn't exactly news. And most games were not that famous.
This has nothing to do with "defending" Naka at all and he's the one saying bad things like not even documenting the code. You think that's a good thing?
Does Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 use the same engine? I feel that'd settle this argument
What relevance does that even have? Finding exceptions isn't going to change the fact that this game got the "just finish it" treatment like most did. For each high profile game you find there will be 100 more that nobody ever even heard about, and certainly weren't treated like something precious to preserve and carry forward.
If 3D games that Naka worked on a few years after NiGHTS preserved and reused their code then that makes less likely that NiGHTS itself had that mentality. I don't really care if it was a Japanese trend or not
Yeah, that's true. The X-treme team didn't report any problems using the code, granted they only had 2 weeks to use it. Honestly the first tweet is pretty reasonable: Naka would be the only guy they'd have to go to for help, and I can't blame him for not wanting to mess with STI again. The second tweet is pretty lol though and likely a lie.
Is this actually true? I googled and couldn't find anything. Sega Retro doesn't mention it (for whatever that's worth kek)
What is likely the case is that the code is so poorly commented and sloppy that trying to repurpose it would be less efficient than just starting from scratch. But that's not the same thing and it still means they were bad at their job.
Because they're shitposting. Naka has been proven repeatedly to be an incredibly narcissistic butthole who blatantly lies about shit to take credit for everything. He hasn't been involved in making a good video game for 30 years, and has now gotten blacklisted from the industry, and is having an autism fit on Twitter about it.
No one likes him, no one actually believes anything he says, and no one genuinely thinks people are making things up, it's a bunch of shitposters being obnoxious contrarians because it gets them a 5 second dopamine rush when they bait someone.
>no one actually believes anything he says
The worst part about it is that he's telling the truth.
I think a couple genuinely believe it because of their weeabooism. Japanese developer can do no wrong, even though the very reason we're even talking about this is because of his recent conflicts with other Japanese developers. I'm thankful for
because he outright says it. It intersects nicely with the neurotic Sega Saturn apologism you see on here.
>Japanese developer can do no wrong
That's not what's being said. Naka may have done a shit job with that Balan game, I don't care, never played it and never will. I just think that doesn't mean he's lying.
Is there any proof that he lies?
Someone on /vr/ said he was lying.
As in a smoking gun? No. It's a he-said-she-said deal. Except the X-treme story comes from multiple sources who didn't have anything to gain from lying about it, meanwhile Naka is actively attentionwhoring and trying to turn public opinion against SE and Ohshima on social media. Do you think he'd give such an embarrassing and hypocritical story in the middle of his crusade?
Id trust the guy who gave me PSO and NiGHTS before I trust a couple of literal who white boys LOL
there was some drama over him saying that the whole "1 ring prevents death" mechanic in sonic 1 was an addition made in the last week (as evidence of how hes a better game designer than square enix) when leaked prototypes reveal that feature was in right from the start
there's a bit of a difference between lying about that and something like x-treme tho. if i was betting man i would say he's at least lying about not knowing that sti wanted the engine but as been said earlier in the thread its understandable why he didn't wanna share that shit
I really have no idea what the frick he was trying to say here. The rings are a basic mechanic, they must have been there since the beginning. Maybe something in his mind really fricked up when translating to Engrish. And he's a liar, true, but this is just bizarre.
Regardless, it's more about the argument that the engine was completely unusable for anything but Nights that's the problem, not that it wasn't used. There are a lot of reasons a game might be built from scratch. But to say that a game engine would be impossible to repurpose for another project on the exact same hardware makes zero sense.
"impossible" is probably just hyperbole for "impracticable".
I don't expect C programmers to know assembly, and in fact I assume they know C because they don't want to know assembly.
So you already have this problem for a team of people. Then there's no documentation. And it's for a different game.
I don't think it's unreasonable to come to the conclusion it'd be faster to just start from scratch. This too
>Oh and he's Japanese so if we have question we can email him and in 12 hours get a response in a foreign language on a highly technical topic
>If 3D games that Naka worked on a few years after NiGHTS preserved and reused their code then that makes less likely that NiGHTS itself had that mentality.
I can't see your rationale here. That's going to be left up to the project management which could vary from project to project. There's no guarantee of consistency at any stage even within the same companies with /some/ of the same people working on it.
Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 have totally different physics, so I don't know. But for what it's worth, Wikipedia says that Sonic Adventure "started development on the NiGHTS engine," though I'm not sure games all used dedicated 'engines' like we know them today, anyway.
I remember hearing something about Sonic Jam's Sonic World being related to a saturn proto of Sonic Adventure.
The modern concept of an engine that does a bunch of stuff that is manipulated by a high level scripting language didn't exist back then for the most part. Programmers would implement gameplay features directly in the game code ad-hoc as opposed to trying to engineer some kind of "actor" system that would allow a "gameplay designer" to implement some feature. The benefit is that old games were so much less rigid and had so many more one off features, the downside is that they were practically useless for follow on projects as unravelling all that ad-hoc shit wasn't generally worth it. However no one is going to do everything from scratch every game, you can and will copy/paste your object loader, the image functions, the sound code... etc. and so games from the same studio would have lots of similarities even if there was no "engine" that guided development.
There are lots of exceptions though. Sometimes software engineers were hired instead of coders and they'd engineer it to have more separation between the duties. This could lead to shorter devs times with fewer bugs, BUT it also led to monotonous copy/paste quest design because the tool chest given to the quest designers consisted of only a handful of building blocks and requests for features were thrown out due to lack of time (because they squandered it all trying to over-engineer a one-size-fits-all quest system.)
These days the balance is screwed up because of how much work making the groundwork of a PS4/5/Xbox/PC/Switch game is and so with so much more work and larger teams, it's harder to manage an old school ad-hoc project and so the trend towards "engines" took hold.
>this was standard practice for game development in Japan at the time.
This was standard practice for game development worldwide
Zoomers who grew up with Unreal Engine don't get it
>You wouldn't want a situation where a Nights 2 had to totally reinvent the wheel
There was a NiGHTS in development for Dreamcast called "NiGHTS AIR" which would have featured motion controls.
Literally every game engine was like that you moron.
>If you're building a game engine that is so esoteric it can't possibly be used for anything else you're being inefficient as hell.
well it was probably right for the game modern games have shit performance because their engines are general purpose
Ikr, instead we have super efficient engines now
Like unreal engine game 468 and unity game 335
It wasn't a game engine, it was just source code.
Back then most games were coded from scratch you clueless zoomer.
Naka's genius is lost on you plebians, as usual.
English isn't his first language. What he means is that the engine would have been made specifically for Nights gameplay, and not easily adapted to a normal 3D game. Custom engines for one or two games were very common before the era of Unreal, Unity, etc.
Now we need to reverse-engineer Ninpen Manmaru (which has been said to be running on the NiGHTS engine that Sega outsourced to the developers for a fee) to see if Naka's telling the truth or not that it couldn't be used for other types of games.
What will be the next American cope after this? Will they finally admit responsibility for their own failure and stop blaming the yellow man?
>for their own failure
You know Sega would've been irrelevant if not for the west, right? They always sold like shit in Japan, even your precious Shiturn only sold a meagre ~6 million units there with a lower software attach rate than the N64.
Ah yes, all those amazing western games like Eternal Champions, Vector Man and Ooze are what made the Genesis such a smash hit...and SEGA only made consoles of course. Dumb consolepleb.
I was specifically talking about the stupid, subhuman, terminally deceitful Amerimonkeys being incapable of finishing Sonic Xtreme by themselves, so they just choose to blame Naka like a bunch of losers. Lmao! So pathetic. Funny how Sonic Team could finish two different 3D games but these subhumans couldn't finish just one.
>random stories in english about japanese developers turn out to be lies
wow, I'm shocked!
I don't know if I would believe what Naka says.
But regardless Naka not allowing them the engine was never the big trouble with NiGHTS. It's just some Amerimutt rednecks pushing that narrative.
Wait a fricking second, wasn’t the X-treme boss engine working off Nights? The one where we have proof up to a leaked working demo of Sonic running in a 3D field and screenshots with a giant Fang the Sniper? On my phone so I can’t dig for proof right now but I’m sure it’d be easy to validate or disprove my post after a quick trip to Hidden Palace.
To my recollection everything I ever read about X-treme’s development indicated that the boss engine was the only thing that was working well in that mess of a project but it was removed after Naka threw a hissy fit. He’s a known narcissist so I believe he thought he was telling the truth when he wrote this tweet, but what actually happened was Naka screeching “NOOO GAIJIN TOO STUPID UNDERSTAND MY MASTERPIECE DONT RET THEM TOUCH IT!” when really the STI guys were able to figure it out in a couple weeks.
No, the boss engine was a custom engine made by Chris Coffin. The demo that people claim is using the NiGHTS engine is actually just using Coffin's boss engine. She actually confirmed this a while ago and even posted pictures of later builds as that she continued to work on.
Coffin was the only decent programmer on that team who actually got something up and running on the Saturn.
>She
She's actually a woman. A real woman.
Well, blimey
Are you sure?
Not anymore! What's the truth??? Please, tell me!
Sega-focused reporters being morons that don't know a tomboy when they see one
Thank you! I finally understood!
Yeah no dude
>special thanks
>Chris “applejack” Coffin
>For “his” wisdom
I can't understand this shit! What does Chris Coffin have under his/her pants, after all? This shit is probably a real-life occurrence of the crazy twins from Resident Evil: Code Veronica. That's the only explanation.
Frick you for reminding me that shitshow used to be funny
You stupid piece of shit.
Her name is Christina Coffin
https://segaretro.org/Christina_Coffin
Are you so braindead that you can't use google?
thanks anon!
he could have still given them the engine shit doesn't add up.
What part doesn't add up? Just because he could have given them the engine doesn't mean they even asked for it in the first place.
Does his pitch sound at all appealing to you?
>hey we could start from scratch in C or we can take Naka's undocumented, game-specific, assembly engine and build on top of that. Oh and he's Japanese so if we have question we can email him and in 12 hours get a response in a foreign language on a highly technical topic
SoJ continues to be vindicated as time goes on. All the Saturns problems were from the West.
This was pretty obvious for anyone with more than 2 functioning neurons.
>uuuuh yeaaah the guys at Japan, the ones who actually made the systems and the games, are the bad guys! we are the good guys! here, play some shitty STI shovelware we spent millions of dollars on.
Japanese people bought Saturns to be a Virtua Fighter machine and that's about it. It didn't do all that well over there, either. It sold 5.8 million units in Japan. The N64 sold 5.5 million, almost a dead heat, and people typically call the N64 a failure in Japan.
uh sir this is a weeb board please take your facts elsewhere
Sega not being a top seller in japan doesn't mean all the SoA lies are true.
>almost a dead heat, and people typically call the N64 a failure in Japan.
N64 was on the market for two years longer than the Saturn, so failing to sell as many in more time is why it's considered a failure.
The Saturn came out two years before the N64. What are you talking about?
>N64 was on the market for two years longer than the Saturn
Except that's wrong.
Saturn: 1994~1999 = 6 years
N64: 1996~2001 = 6 years
Saturn was replaced in 1998.
Nope. The Saturn got about 15 games in Japan in 1999 before Sega decided to finally pull the plug on it over there.
Dreamcast came out in 1998.
Your point? The SNES came out in 1990 but the NES didn't die until the mid '90s, Genesis didn't die until a few years after the Saturn came out, PS1 lived into the mid '00s, etc. Just because a new console comes out doesn't mean the previous console is automatically dead.
Is this guy really trying to argue that because the Saturn was shitcanned earlier in its lifespan than the N64 that means it was the bigger success?
Is this guy really trying to argue that the N64 selling less than the Saturn in Japan means its a bigger success there? lmao. You lost, had an extra year to lose, and still lost. Deal with it.
Cope. The N64 sold more overall.
You're not using final numbers. Final numbers put the Saturn's Japanese sales between 6-7 million. We know from FY98 reports that Sega sold about 8.8 Million units worldwide by that point. Of that number about 2.5-3 million were in the US and Europe and other minor territories. The rest was Japan which would be about 5.8-6.3 million. But the system still went on to sell about another 500k systems after that most likely in Japan. So that would be about 6.3-6.8 million systems.
And the "But the N64 sold more software" argument doesn't hold water either when you start looking at Famitsu Sales charts of the time and add stuff up. Their FY98 report tells a lot too with about 80 million games having been sold by that point. Considering about 65% of the Saturn's install base was in Japan, it's probably safe to assume a similar percentage of those 80 million games were sold in Japan. So going off of that Sega most likely pushed ~53 million games in Japan. Nintendo by comparison sold about 39 million N64 games in Japan.
This also puts the Saturn at having a ~9:1 worldwide software attach rate which is pretty insane for a failed system. So while it may not have been as successful as the PS1 in Japan, and may have only sold about 1 million more systems than the N64, it was clearly a much more attractive system for developers than the N64 which shows with how much bigger it's library is (~200 released Japanese N64 games to ~1000 released Japanese Saturn games).
Where are you getting those numbers? Would actually be curious to see.
That said, it's moot. 1 million in sales isn't a huge difference so it can't be said that one system was a success and the other was a failure.
Importantly though, the Saturn wasn't attractive for developers beyond a certain point. The thing about the Saturn is that whatever success it had was front loaded. After VF2 it very much cratered. That's why so many publishers abandoned it. Capcom kept porting it's fighting games but there was no Resident Evil 2 or Mega Man Legends despite both franchises having appeared on the system prior. Konami kept pushing it's Saturn ports to the Nagoya team, which was the second string. Much of it's library was buoyed by the 1990s Japan equivalent of shovelware. All those anime games western weebs think make the Saturn a treasure trove were selling like 20,000 copies max to the whales. The Saturn sold most of it's consoles on Virtua Fighter and that install base is what kept it limping along but it was only a small percentage of whales who were still buying games for it. That's why the library looks like it does. The N64 sold fewer consoles but like 15 games were million sellers. What's really better? A smaller library but games that appeal to a broad range of people, or a larger library that is mostly supported by the 20,000-40,000 people who still give a shit about your machine after everyone else abandoned it for the PlayStation? That's why the Dreamcast was such an urgent matter on both sides of the Pacific. Even SoJ knew they needed to move beyond the Saturn because it was a war of attrition by 1997 and the writing was on the wall even in Japan. The N64, while not a sensation in Japan, was far more stable.
>Where are you getting those numbers?
Sega's Fiscal Year Reports from the era, as well as press releases from the time that mention how many systems they sold at different points in it's life. From Sega of America press releases we can gather that about 2.5-3 Million were sold outside of Japan, and from the FY98 report we can figure out how many were sold worldwide by that point and do some math to figure out how many were sold in Japan.
Game sales come from again Sega's FY98 reports as well as this site that tracks Famitsu sales charts:
https://sites.google.com/site/gamedatalibrary/game-search
>1 Million isn't a huge difference.
It is in Japan. The PC-Engine is considered a success over the Mega Drive in Japan yet it only sold about 1.5-2 Million more systems there.
>After VF2 it very much cratered. That's why so many publishers abandoned it.
>whales!
This again doesn't stand up to actual evidence. Look at the sales site I linked. Sure Saturn isn't pushing PS1 level numbers, but PS1 was an outlier and no system was going to beat it that gen. Saturn though is still pushing decent numbers in the region for a 2nd place system, especially when compared to the N64. Sure N64 may have a few top 10 games pushing over a million units, but it fizzles out very quickly and doesn't even have 100 games charting and drops below 100k total sales by around number 40, and later below 10k around number 80. Saturn however has over 450 game charting in Famitsu and holds above 100k for the top 100 games and doesn't drop below 10k until around number 400.
Throw in that Saturn games were cheaper to produce since they were on Discs, and it's not hard to see between the two which was the more attractive system for developers. Which again is reflected in how much larger the Saturn library is when compared to the N64 library.
>Sure N64 may have a few top 10 games pushing over a million units, but it fizzles out very quickly and doesn't even have 100 games charting and drops below 100k total sales by around number 40, and later below 10k around number 80. Saturn however has over 450 game charting in Famitsu and holds above 100k for the top 100 games and doesn't drop below 10k until around number 400.
But what are the release dates of those games? I bet the top of the list for the Saturn was mostly games from 1994-1996. Shit just wasn't moving later in its life. There was a dramatic slide. I'm not even interested in console war shit so I'm just using the N64 as a point of comparison here. Point is that in the N64's case there wasn't that kind of a drop. There were top selling games releasing pretty much throughout its entire lifespan. The Saturn didn't follow that pattern. Sales just plain tanked.
>But what are the release dates of those games? I bet the top of the list for the Saturn was mostly games from 1994-1996
There's actually quite a few games from 1997 and 1998 near the top of the Saturn chart. Hell there's even some third party games from 1999 that are still charting on Saturn and giving third party N64 games a run for their money.
And there must have been some worthwhile market for Konami to decide to do very late ports of Suikoden, Vandal Hearts, and Symphony of the Night.
>Point is that in the N64's case there wasn't that kind of a drop. There were top selling games releasing pretty much throughout its entire lifespan.
You need to look at what those games actually are. It's just the first party titles having that kind of success. Once you get out of First Party games sales go off a cliff. Which is bad for third party devs. Just start comparing like for like with third party games. Super Robot Wars Final F was the Summer 1998 release on Saturn, it still sold 4-5x what it's N64 counterpart would sell one year later. Castlevania Symphony of the Night was a late 1998 release on Saturn, it still sold about 3-4x what it's N64 counterpart sold a year later. Resident Evil 2 didn't even break 10k sales, while the Saturn port of the original sold ~70k in it's first week alone.
Overall, Saturn was a much better system for third party devs than the N64, and it shows in it's library.
>The Saturn didn't follow that pattern. Sales just plain tanked.
They tank after the Dreamcast was announced and Sega started shifting focus.
>There's actually quite a few games from 1997 and 1998 near the top of the Saturn chart. Hell there's even some third party games from 1999 that are still charting on Saturn and giving third party N64 games a run for their money.
Name them. You're the one pushing all this insider number knowledge so share the information. What are these games and what did they sell?
>They tank after the Dreamcast was announced and Sega started shifting focus.
Yeah, and why did they start shifting focus? It's because the Saturn was tanking and they needed to move on.
What does it matter if your system attracts more third party devs if the games sell peanuts? The vast majority of Saturn games sold like ass while like 4 games cracked a million. Great, another hentai mahjong game, sure to make the system a hit!
Another thing to note is that the sales charts on that site are just the totals from the weekly Famitsu charts. If the game didn't make the charts, it's not included. If it dropped below the top games in the chart, it stopped being tracked. So those aren't complete numbers either. But they do show the same general trend for both systems, Saturn was selling a lot more software than the N64 in Japan. If you add up all the number sin those charts you get about 35 million sold for Saturn and I think around 23 Million for N64?
Now Nintendo did give official numbers later for the N64 at around 39 Million games shipped in Japan. Sega didn't really give us a number so we have to speculate from the data we do have. But going off of what we do know (80 million games sold worldwide by Spring of 1998, 8.8 Million Systems with about 65% being in Japan, etc.) we can probably assume with some certainty that Saturn sold about ~53 Million games in Japan.
Anyone could tell you that. The Saturn actually had some real sales over in Japan whereas the west it was a complete bomb. We're even seeing the effects of that today where the japanese versions of saturn games are so much cheaper than their american counterparts on the secondhand market. They just sold that much better.
>We're even seeing the effects of that today where the japanese versions of saturn games are so much cheaper than their american counterparts on the secondhand market.
That's true for nearly every console though, coomlecting just isn't as big as in Japan.
>The Saturn actually had some real sales over in Japan
Yes but with a low software attach rate. Sega sold the Saturn at a loss of about $100 a unit and did not have the game sales to make up for it. Selling a Saturn and one copy of Virtua Fighter doesn’t close the cost gap.
It had a decent attach rate but not because most Saturn owners were buying games for it. 80% of Saturn owners bought Virtua Fighter and then bailed. The remaining 20% or whatever it was were whales who bought everything. That's why the game sales numbers crater so fast. Once the normies stopped buying games there were only so many otaku left to buy everything else. So even if every single one of them bought the new weeb dating sim the sales would cap at like 50,000. If they're all buying like 12-15 games each you'll get a high total attach rate because that small group is subsidizing the low attach rate of the majority that used the Saturn as a Virtua Fighter machine.
i know people that bought a saturn just for daytona and they were shattered by how bad it was. i think i played the audio tracks off of that game disc more than i actually played the game.
>The Saturn actually had some real sales over in Japan whereas the west it was a complete bomb.
The moment FF7 and DQ7 were announced for PSX that was it for Saturn in Japan.
They failed at getting FF7 on their console and sales dwindled after that.
Dumbest thing I've ever heard. Squaresoft has never released a game for a Sega console.
Sega did try to get Square to make games for the Saturn, even contacting them directly but obviously that didn't pan out kek
Probably because the thing sucked for 3D games. Didn't Xtreme use sprites in its earliest builds?
>Probably because the thing sucked for 3D games.
Not really true when you have games like Tomb Raider in it.
FF7 would have worked on the Saturn although it would look a bit different in a few areas.
Saturn had it's strong points like the VDPs allowing tricks you couldn't do in PSX.
Like for example backgrounds would be essentially for free since you could offload them to the VDP2.
They actually were trying to get FF7 on the Saturn.
One of the lead programmers of FF7 proposed doing it on the Saturn.
https://gamingnewsmagazine.com/2021/08/05/final-fantasy-vii-was-about-to-be-exclusive-to-the-sega-saturn-according-to-a-sega-document/
https://www.mirai-idea.jp/post/segasaturn03
Talks fell off somewhere along the lines and they ultimately agreed with Sony.
Saturn was designed to be the most powerful 2D console? There was a lot they could have done to make it so, always thought that was a myth.
Apparently SotN is better for the Saturn.
>Apparently SotN is better for the Saturn.
Fake news from Saturn cultists.
>much worse slowdowns than other versions
>far more frequent and longer loading times than other versions
>fricked resolution, making everything look stretched and goofy
>not only lower sound quality, but also lower FMV quality
>dithering in place of real transparencies
Yeah but everything they added makes up for that.
>Fake news from Saturn cultists.
That's like saying fake news from the Dreamcast cultists. Just drivel.
PS1 gays will never have this
Maria mode is better on PSP. She's too absurdly OP in the Saturn version to the point of being boring to play as.
Saturncucks lose again.
Nah it's actually harder on Saturn because the frame rate requires you to use prediction and strategy where on PS1 and PSP you can just mash buttons.
It's a good sprite
The hind egs are ANATOMICALLY BACKWARDS YOU NINNY.
Looks anatomical to me.
Dude he's trolling you.
BOMBS AWAY
I can't believe he said the n-word.
Do I need to spell it out for you?
The horse. LOOK AT THE FRICKING HORSE'S LEGS, WHAT THE FRICK IS WRONG WITH IT.
I mean, I know you also eat up Paint-Tool Richter but goddamn, SotN's spritework is just too good for this shit, this is exactly like saying a mustache on the Mona Lisa unironically perfects a masterpiece.
>Yeah but everything they added makes up for that.
It really isn't. The only vaguely good/interesting thing was the boss in the Underground Garden since I didn't have 20 years of built-up muscle memory to shit on it in five seconds
Regardless of how sheer dreadful the Saturn version was in most respects I'm still sore that GUARDIAN didn't stick around as Maria's theme instead of "slash" or whatever.
Sega was never good
>Sega of America lied
of course they did. Never trust Americans
Did you know? It was Bernie Stolar who had the idea of taking NiGHTS code for it to be used in Sonic Xtreme which caused Naka's autistic b***h-fit and threatening to leave SEGA.
Never forget Based Bernie trolling zipperheads, Saturn cultists and weebtards.
Bernie's dead, and good riddance. The damage is done but at least he doesn't get to laugh about it.
>but at least he doesn't get to laugh about it.
No, but us Bernieposters do.
Bernie lost.
I still want to get a group of anons from here and go on a trip to his gravesite where we each take a shit one by one on his fricking grave. Fricking piece of shit! I'm only sad that I wasn't able to give him my bare knuckle to the jaw.
Except we know now that this is a lie and Bernie was a perpetual liar
Bernie was a bastard and I hope his death was awful with plenty of suffering until his last breath.
>believe Naka-san because... BECAUSE YOU JUST SHOULD OK?!?
Weebs were a mistake.
It's not weebs, it's r/aznidentity. The mask came off about halfway through the thread
Now that Naka isn't distracted by making video games, he's turned himself to twitter and it seems that he's been searching what people have been saying about him.
I don't trust a damn thing he says. Guy is a living snake.
>uh oh, what the original head programmer of NiGHTS is saying goes against my beliefs in western video game journalism and american gossip and narrative! I better call Naka a liar
Why is this being portrayed as a western journalist thing when this recent event was kickstarted off by problems with Japanese devs? It's not even the first time Naka's had beef with other Japanese people, see the shit he said about Yasuhara.
>Why is this being portrayed as a western journalist thing
never read any japanese source about the sonic x-treme nights engine thing.
This is the first time a japanese person talks about it.
>Yasuhara
what did he say? qrd?
>So I was involved with every aspect of the original Sonics. Some of the details, like making a map, quite straight-forward stuff, was done by the guy who's working on Jak and Daxter right now. He was involved until Sonic 3, and after that for eight years he didn't do anything in Sega, so he was quite useless in Sega. We really didn't need him. He was really doing nothing with Sonic.
Well, that's harsh to use the word "useless", but maybe he is saying the truth?
Yasuhara rubs me the wrong way, leaving to work with western companies.
I remember I played Uncharted and saw he designed the levels or something like that, and the levels sucked major ass, there was barely any actual design, it was just corridors, even in open areas.
>but maybe he is saying the truth?
He is not. Naka is a piece of shit.
Everybody else who worked with Yasuhara had nothing but good words to say about him.
Craig Stitt who would later be famous with Insomniac Games
>"My primary job on Sonic 2 was simply to 'paint' art (one pixel at a time!) that would bring the maps to life. Yasahara (Spelling!?!?) was the primary designer on Sonic 1-3 (and he was the real magic behind the game and a really nice guy)."
http://info.sonicretro.org/Craig_Stitt_interview_by_ICEknight_(January_2001)
Yasuhara also worked on Naughty Dog games and now he's working for Unity meanwhile Naka is a twitter loser.
Without Yasuhara's genius level design Naka Sonic would have never been a success.
Remember that Naka just wanted to make a faster Mario.
Yasuhara said that they should do more complex level maps because he wanted more replayability than a simple arcade game.
He was right.
Guess OJ was innocent, after all he said he didn't do it
>NiGHTS program was so special it was impossible to use it for anything
uh, what?
I've literally never heard about Yuji Naka digging Xtreme's grave. Are people confusing it with that other Western Sonic Saturn game?
The story is that the Americans wanted to use the Nights engine to make the game, and had gotten some ways into making the game in the Nights engine, and then Yaka found out and threw a fit.
What actually got the game cancelled though is they accidentally demoed the wrong version to the Japanese execs, making it appear the game was far less along than it actually was.
I don't understand this shit. Ok, so you demo an earlier version by mistake. Just...show the newer version afterwards? Mail it to them if they went back to Japan? The whole thing sounds like each side is making excuses to save face. The Americans probably made a shitty game and instead of copping to it blames Japan for being unreasonable. Japan probably did make the dev process worse than it should have been and was looking for any excuse they could find to cancel the project.
anon have you worked a white collar job in your life
No, but I have some white shirts that I could wear for work, if that's the case. They're not better than me.
Apparently they wouldn't look at any other version. "I'm the exec, the decision is made" big business dick waving.
I think in general they probably didn't want Americans making unsanctioned games in a flagship franchise anyway.
>"I'm the exec, the decision is made" big business dick waving.
Yeah, it's not just Naka. The entire Sega operation was a shitshow.
If that were the case they wouldn't have allowed Sonic Spinball.
They also wouldn't have sent Yasuhara to lend their help to Sonic X-Treme.
They were just clueless really and didn't know what they were doing. They made huge mistakes.
That's all it really was. The last thing companies want is bad press.
>Thank you for flying in, here's our build of potentially the biggest game for the system.
>You'll go in the room alone with the build already set-up, we won't double check or even ask for feedback.
>Once you're finished, you's can fly back to Japan, no need to tell us right now how you feel, thanks.
They did use the NiGHTS "engine" because there's a build of Sonic X-Treme out there that shares code with NiGHTS. After 2 weeks they were forced to stop.
The American team Senn et al seemed to be good sports about it.
Some Anti-SoJ cultist fans however keep repeating this bullshit.
>What actually got the game cancelled though is they accidentally demoed the wrong version to the Japanese execs, making it appear the game was far less along than it actually was.
Well it was not even that. They still kept working on the game but Coffin contracted Pneumonia and Senn became so ill he was told by a doctor he had 6 months to live if he continued like that so Wallis made the decision to cancel the game.
>there's a build of Sonic X-Treme out there that shares code with NiGHTS
No there isn't.
>nshittyfour vs the shaturn
name a bigger tardfight
snoys vs xbots
>Apparently NiGHTS was written entirely in Assembly
Lmao so you're telling me they either reverse engineered or completely recreated the game when they ported it to PC? You can't convince me Sega would do that for such a budget release (that they even have given out for free before).
Didnt the saturn mode in the PC re-release look not anything like the original saturn release?
That seems to be a Sega special, seeing how they've handled Sonic Adventure through the years.
I the think PC release was based of the PS2 remake. Wouldn't be shocked if SEGA lost the source code as that pretty on the norm for anything sega did 5th gen.
Atleast they found Guardian Heroes in the basement.
the pc/ps3/360 version of nights is a port of the ps2 remaster, which had to be completely rebuilt from the ground up
During the time that Sonic Team should have been making a 3D Sonic to build on the success they helped Sega find in America and Europe, they decided to make NiGHTS, a game with an androgynous jester that appears to children in the night time and flies around in loops.
While Sonic Team was putting all their effort into Balan Wonderworld Zero and the Saturn was performing dismally, Sonic was pawned off to western studios like TT and STI as SoA and SoE (arguably the most sensible of the 3) at least tried to salvage their mascot. Meanwhile, NiGHTS becomes the Saturn's poster boy.
Imagine being a kid in late 1996 and being told you could get either a PlayStation, a Nintendo 64, or a Saturn. One is really popular and has games like Crash Bandicoot. One doesn't have a ton of games, but the new Mario game is very good. One has a purple girly clown thing and... Clockwork Knight (gross)
It's like if Nintendo decided to abandon Mario entirely for N64 and focus on a new IP starring a moronic mime and a pot of honey, then came to their senses only to make Sunshine.
SoJ weebs will never recover.
What's really funny is this
>While Sonic was seen as a one-dimensional character, NiGHTS had emotions, and was designed to look like an angel to appeal more towards US and European cultures which had proven so successful for Sonic
This is what happens when you don't consult the west for basically anything. While SoJ did the actual grunt work in making the Sonic games, they consulted SoA for many things and played a big role in Sonic's success. I do respect the artistic audacity of NiGHTS but from a business perspective it was probably the dumbest thing Sega could've done.
I don't understand SoJ weebs at all. The only popular games Sega made, even by the Japanese branch, were very western focused like Streets of Rage, Daytona, Outrun, E-Swat, stuff like that. Sega by and large never made actual weebshit, and even all the weebshit on the Saturn was generic jap shovelware you could play on any console.
Did it cross your brain that people just like good games, which only SoJ ever made?
Sega of Japan honestly didn't make that many good games. Sonic, Streets of Rage and Golden Axe were the Genesis staples everyone had, but past that you wouldn't see a lot of Segas own games. and if you did they were American made. Toejam and Earl, Vectorman, Comix Zone, Chakan, Alladin, all the sports games. Plus EA, Midway, even Capcom had much more presence on the console for your typical owner.
>Sega of Japan honestly didn't make that many good games
>Toejam and Earl, Vectorman, Comix Zone, Chakan, Alladin, all the sports games
anon, you're very tarded.
Alladin(sic) was made by Dave Perry, under Virgin. Sega only paid for the ad campaign. The game was also ported to PC and even Game Boy and NES.
K. I never said Sega made them I said Americans did.
I do, its alright. I prefer Cannon Spike or GigaWing if I want to kill 30-60 minutes playing an arcade game though
Shut the frick up. Go play Zombie Revenge homosexual.
Based truth-teller, look at all the SoJ apologists seething and you know you're in the right.
This is less about "SoJ apologists" and more about damage control by anti-Japan schizos like you the mere moment their narrative falls apart when a japanese personal finally give their perspective over the many, many rumors and lies fabricated in the west over the decades.
Yea and his perspective is contradictory and makes no sense kek
>"I never even HEARD of people wanting to use the NiGHTS engine!"
>goes on about how he couldn't share the engine when if he truly didn't hear about it, he could've left it at that
It's odd that this is made into a nationalist thing when Japanese people are sick of his bullshit too. I guess SJWs aren't the only ones inserting politics and race into video games.
>thread filled with weebs cumming all over themselves that one of the most hated people in all of the gaming industry said something and now have absolute definite proof that suddenly the entire American branch of Sega is actually worthless and lied about everything and killed the company
>point out that most people who had a Genesis didn't even play a lot of Japanese made games and suddenly the thread is filled with "anti-Japanese schizos"
Sure thing buddy.
>Yuji Naka
>one of the most hated people in all of the gaming industry
>apparently thats not anti-jap schizo
sure thing Phil Fish
Well the former Sega of America people tend to have a track record for telling stories that generally don't hold up to scrutiny. But they've gotten away with it for so long because the Japanese side of the story was inaccessible. Now that more of the Japanese side of the story is coming out, it's painting a very different picture.
And it's not just with Naka either. There's been a lot coming out from interviews with people like Hideki Sato which pretty much torpedoed the old narrative that "Sega of Japan didn't let Sega of America know about the Saturn or have any input into it!" when Sato revealed not only were they aware of it, they did get to put input into it's design as well.
I'm not going to say the former SoA employees are flat out liars, but their tales tend to follow a trend of being overly dramatic, full of hyperbole and hearsay, and generally have questionable plausibility due to how outlandish and unprofessional they seem. But hey they make good entertainment and clickbait. Meanwhile when the Japanese side comes out, it generally is much more grounded in reality and less ridiculous, and therefore tends to be more believable. But they're also more boring.
Similar shit happens with famous anime creators and such where anglos will misinterpret another language they don't understand and push the false info as fact on /m/ and Ganker until someone actually translates multiple interviews from magazines and books years later and it turns out all perception on these guys were bullshit ("Nagano stole Tomino's wife", "Anno hates otaku", Rumiko Takahashi said fanservice is bad, etc")
>"Anno hates otaku"
I think people like this just because it's funny. They want it to be true.
No one gives a fricking shit about anime, go back to your containment board weeb
Yuji Naka himself has already been shown lying in this very thread:
So we're comparing the word of someone who's shown to be a liar vs multiple sources. Is there any proof that Mike Wallis and Chris Senn are habitual liars? Or are you just assuming because they worked at SoA? At best, it's a story where everyone is lying, but only one of them is having a very long meltdown on social media after getting fired (at the request of his long-time former acquaintance)
Senn has changed his story on this multiple times over the years. It's gone from "they got the engine and Naka threw a tantrum" to "they might have gotten a level editor" to not knowing if that was ever even considered. He's inconsistent at best.
The "they got the engine and Naka threw a tantrum" part comes from Mike Wallis. This is all Senn ever had to say about the situation:
>Senn: I only heard that Naka-san was adamant about keeping the NiGHTS engine private. I also recall a rumor that the NiGHTS engine was shared with the STI crew. I’m not sure if Naka-san was asked, but if this rumor were true and he said “no”, and then the engine was shared anyway… I would completely understand being angry! But, all of this is speculation only.
The Saturn devs have pretty much said as such, yea. But weeabooism and contrarianism is a dangerous mix.
>american vidya "journalists" and israeli businessmen make up stories left and right
>"based SoA! SoJ are evil!"
>a japanese developer gives his perspective on things
>"holy shit weebs, stop believing what he says, he's a liar!"
You are such a lying piece of shit.
You're leaving out so many great Japanese games like Gunstar Heroes, Dynamite Headdy, Thunderforce series, Ristar, Herzog Zwei, Phantasy Star, Columns, Puyo Puyo, Fantasy Zone, Virtua Racing etc.
Not hating on SoA first/second party games by any means but the best games were the Japanese ones for sure.
No one owned any of this shit you moron. I grew up with a Genesis, it was all I had until 98. Most of my friends had a Genesis as opposed to a SNES. My cousin who was more like a big brother to me, and all of his friends had a Genesis because Nintendo was seen as kiddy gay shit. You wanna know the average Genesis owners library? Some combination of Sonic, Streets of Rage, Golden Axe, Road Rash, Mortal Kombat, NBA Jam, Madden or Joe Montana football depending on which one you liked more, Terminator vs Robocop, World Series Baseball, Toejam and Earl, Street Fighter, and Comix Zone.
You dipshit acting like anyone was forming lines to buy Phantasy Star or Puto Puyo are underage and letting your entire knowledge of a console be formed by some fat ass YouTuber listing off "hidden gems" that wouldn't even get a passing glance at rental shops.
Shining Force and Phantasy Star II were both pretty popular. Not Sonic The Hedgehog popular but not poorly selling by any stretch.
I had never heard Phantasy Star mentioned a single time before PSO on the Dreamcast which was quite popular.
Also for the other anon, if you want some actual "hidden gems" that arent the 10 games everyone knows about but were actually games anyone besides fat slobs actually played
Blades of Vengeance
Dinosaurs for Hire
All the "Strike" games
Jurassic Park
Earthworm Jim
NHL 94
Mutant League Football or Hockey
Primal Rage
Smash TV
Zero Tolerance
Splatterhouse
WrestleMania Arcade
All of those were developed by Japanese dudes. Also Sega made a frick ton of anime inspired games, right down to them being the main sponsors for Evangelion, Utena, Blue Seed, Rayearth, etc and taking over licensing rights for each.
Cope.
>Also Sega made a frick ton of anime inspired games,
like?
Well, Sakura Wars for starters.
And for enders? Zone of the Enders?
Battle Golfer Yui, Sakura Wars, Phantasy Star, Guardian Heroes, Last Bronx, Napple Tale, Magical Truck Adventures, Mushi King, Dinosaur King, Love and Berry, Sonic Team Puyo Puyo, Burning Rangers, Arrow Flash, Shining Force, list goes on and on.
None of these are really "Anime games" except for Sakura Wars and Battle Golfer Yui.
They had some Japanese exclusives that were Otaku as frick however.
>if anyone likes Sega of Japan, then that must mean they're anime fans!
You're moronic.
I mean, SoJ clearly had the bulk of the artistic talent in the company
SoA definitely had the better business sense though. People sperg out about how they handled the Saturn but it was a lost cause to begin, even its own devs admitted they've fricked up the design.
I don't know why people like to pretend X-Treme was this screwed over masterpiece. Even if Naka was nice enough to give them his engine for the boss battles and the game shipped it would've paled in comparison to Crash and Spyro. Frick it would've looked dated compared to Croc.
Back when each game got their own engine from scratch. Games were more special back then.
Isn't this demo build using the Nights engine? So what the frick
no
No, that's using Chris Coffin's boss engine.
What kind of bullshit is this, of course you can repurpose assembly engines for other games.
He is just bragging about his programming and shitting on STI after he acted like a b***h and threatened to quit if they used his technology. Sega was really good at shooting themselves in the foot.
if its completely undocumented and the only person with knowledge is uncooperative its gonna be more effort than its worth
Why is Yuji Naka such an arrogant narcissist butthole twitter drama queen? No wonder he was fired. Dude must be a pain in the ass to work with. He fricks over his coworkers Naoto Ohshima and throws them under the bus like with sonic xtreme dev team and the cancellation of Geist Force. Yet still b***hes and acts like a pre-madonna when people rightfully talk shit about him behind his back and criticize him for being an butthole.
>"How would you feel if you were suddenly removed from a game that you had worked hard on for over two years, and when you went to court, you found out that they had been talking about me behind my back in court documents and that is why I was removed from the game?" he said.
>"Game creators create games with care for the people who play them. Don't you think that people and companies that cannot take care of games are no good? Instead of talking behind my back, don't you think you should tell them directly before removing them?"
>"What would you do if you were to be ill for a long time and unable to do anything because of it? And how would you feel if you were the director of an unfinished game and it was heavily criticised?"
>Naka came to visit with his team to tour our studio [and] look at our tools and engine; we had a lot of proprietary [and] really phenomenal tech – I would say still to this day, [we had] some stuff that I haven't seen replicated quite at the level we had. [Naka] didn't realize that the people on my team, a lot of them spoke fluent Japanese, including my lead engineer. [Naka] started speaking in Japanese assuming that no one would understand; [he] started talking about what parts of our tech they were going take for Sonic and then basically said as soon as they ship, fire everyone but one of the engineers who knows their system and roll him onto our team for Sonic – and my team heard all that, so you can imagine how they felt. Naka was pretty powerful at Sega at that time.
>the cancellation of Geist Force
That story reeks of bullshit. Every other source says that game was canceled because of internal politics and incompetence, but when some seething tard goes on a podcast and shares his fanfic-tier story to make his shitty career look better, everyone takes it as fact.
>acts like a pre-madonna
the phrase you're looking for is "prima-donna"
I hole-hardedly agree, but allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go. Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.
is this a pasta or something
You can call it pasta, but I think "poison" is more apt.
then its a poison pasta?
Oh my god, who the goddamn frick cares. You're like people talking about all the fricking behind the scenes actor and cast drama bullshit for a TV show or movie. No rational fricking person cares.
>Oh my god, who the goddamn frick cares.
Drama queens like you who lose their shit over people talking about it?
japan has never made a good game.
ok, australia-kun.
They've made two, but I will never tell to someone like you. 😉
I refuse to believe anything this moronic asiatic says after reading about the Moore incident, he is a typical delusional shithead just like SoJ was.
real story here is that whoever designed the Saturn hardware was stuck in the 80s, thinking that Sega just needed to bring the Outrun and Afterburner experience into the home
>8 processors
>6 of them bespoke
>even the general-purpose processors couldn't access main memory simultaneously
>no 3D acceleration
If they actually wanted to bring the arcade experience home it wouldn't have been a bad idea to make the Saturn into a scaled down Model 2, much like the Genesis was a scaled down System 16. That actually would have made the system interesting.
I don't think that is really the case. A lot of the hardware is designed for complex background effects, which is what 90s shoot em ups (and unfortunately not sidescrollers though it would have been damn cool) were doing.
Sega didn't bother to port any of their 90s Super Scaler games to the platform. Remember that all the most impressive scaler games were released not that long before the Saturn, not in the 80s.
Holy frick
Nights isn’t that complicated really but I’m still impressed someone was writing 3D games in raw assembly in the mid 90s
that wasn't really uncommon at all
Maybe not, but I’m still impressed
Was it really necessary for Nights though? Naughty Dog threw out the PS1's libraries because they needed the extra oomph to make Crash Bandicoot work. I doubt Nights was really taxing the Saturn.
it's just that writing in assembler was almost always taken as a given on home consoles even when memory expansion started to allow the use of higher level languages, you can find quotes that are quite funny in hindsight from devs in the mid 90s talking about how using C was mindblowing
The Saturn was a nightmare to develop for.
Naughty Dog saved the PlayStation from Sony's stupidity.
So many later games on the PSX wouldn't have worked if developers kept going with Sony's limiting bullshit.
Naughty Dog needed the RAM, it wasn't that they wanted to do everything raw for performance, it was that their (some might say over-engineered) streaming level system needed every byte it could get to avoid overflowing so they stripped out all the sony library code that was loaded that they didn't intend to use during the game. This isn't really unusual for the time period either, it just sounds bonkers to a modern programmer for whom all loaded code is locked for security reasons and you aren't allowed to manipulate your own code space like that without defeating the security protection of the CPU and the OS. Before NX bits and ASLR and such even PC games would use self modifying code to optimise inner loops, but after the Pentium the cache invalidation this would cause meant it offered vastly diminished returns and then once NX became standard it ceased to be worth it.
You pretty much had to develop in raw assembly on the Saturn if you wanted good speeds in your game due to how poorly the Saturn's hardware was designed, and also because the Saturn's devkit was trash.
One of the many reasons why 3rd-party devs abandoned Sega for the Playstation.
>Nights isn’t that complicated
It looks simple but I'm betting programming the thing is a pain in the ass.
Remember that he was dealing with Saturn hardware too which was a giant pain in the ass to develop for.
>Any thread with even a tangent connection or mention of Sega of Japan always somehow turns in weebs flooding into it trying to damage controlling the Saturn
The Saturn killed Sega. It lost the company company millions of dollars, it never made a profit, even in Japan. It's manufacturing costs were so outrageous and it's sales so low they stopped producing it entirely in 1997. It has no memorable or notable games. It has no fond memories of people who grew up with it. You are not more Japanese for pretending to like it, because even the Japs don't care about it. You will never make the Saturn successful, you will never change the fact it caused the death of Sega, and you will never be Japanese.
You people behave like fricking bots. I am sick of reading paragraphs of sales numbers comparing it to the N64 in one single country where it barely sold more as if anyone cares, when the N64 sold 3x what it did everywhere else. and the PS1 sold 10x of both. I am sick of head canon about the same 4 quotes twisted to prove "uh actually the Saturn was doing great it's just"
Stop ruining every single thread on this board with your autistic crusade and play all the supposedly great Saturn games with that time spent instead. Frick off.
>It has no memorable or notable games.
Stopped reading here, you tried too hard
didnt read
>"uh actually the Saturn was doing great it's just"
This is the big one. It's fine to be into an unpopular system. I like the fricking Virtual Boy. But I'm not going to go around like "if you look at the data the Virtual Boy was doing well in Japan because Venus was in retrograde and..."
The Saturn was provably struggling in Japan and a complete disaster overseas. This isn't debatable.
>It's manufacturing costs were so outrageous and it's sales so low they stopped producing it entirely in 1997.
I think thats why they're so defensive of the Saturn. They wanna believe in the fantasy of the little guy being able to beat big bad Sony through sheer cunning, so they get pissy over Bernie Stolar or no Sonic Xtreme or NiGHTS or some other scapegoat, when in reality even in the most ideal conditions Sega just couldn't compete with Sony's vertical integration and advertising budget. It's not how the free market works, go up against someone with good business sense on top of much greater resources and you're fricked. Most of the Saturn games people talk about are ports/multiplat, its not about the games it gave to the world.
Nintendo would've gone the same way but they had multiple very powerful IPs + their dominance of the portable market + N64 not using CDs made it cheaper to produce (though this obviously carried its own downsides)
This post is gonna summon the saturn schizo
Those who made that Sonic Doom Mod pretty much remade NiGHTS from scratch into a special stage.
Why is Yuji Naka so vocal lately? Did he get bored shitless with doing nothing and start reading every article about him and Sega and the past?
The last person in the industry who tolerated him got sick of dealing with him, and he's having a meltdown over it. I think it also dawned on him he'll never get another job ever again because he's a worthless programmer who hasn't actually done any good coding in almost 30 years, and had to have internet randos teach him how to use Unity to make a cookie clicker ripoff.
All this is mixing together with his notorious narcissism and possible non-meme autism and creating this wonderful daily mental breakdown
Yuji's seen better days. Who was his last friend?
>Apparently NiGHTS was written entirely in Assembly
90% of retro games are.
>Apparently NiGHTS was written entirely in Assembly and the code was completely worthless to anyone trying to use it for something other than NiGHTS.
not surprised. you can't just port source code over like that so easily. without proof of use then it's complete nonsense. sega of america are well known for their bullshit stories and revisionist history, much like sega of japan, and this mostly revolves around who is really sega? the americans that created sega or the japanese that dominated the corporation? there's a lot of cultural bullshit behind it and bitter rivalry that's been going on between the two countries for decades.
Wh*tes should really give up on making games. All their games attract transsexuals like Doom and Fallout lol.
You'd have a point if this wasn't fricking sonic
No one gives a fricking shit about dickcages, go back to your containment board cuckold.
This is the mindset of the average weeb. Sad, really.
eat a dick, shithead!
What if the Sega CD was more successful for 3 years leading Nintendo to release their own add-on and both having cartridge peripheral on a next Gen CD based console?
Thank god it didn’t
Early developers were a cut above developers now. Making 3D games in assembly like NiGHTS. God, just imagine how small the teams they were on that worked on this game, and how many hours they put in a day. Jesus Christ I'm not going to fault these people.
I think most games weren’t in assembly when 5th gen was around
Yuji Naka, just like Inafune, never did ANY actual coding. The first time he did any actual development of any kind on a game besides supervision was Balan.
>Yuji Naka, just like Inafune, never did ANY actual coding
Wrong, you dumbass.
He coded the physics engine in the Sonic games.
Coding is the only thing he did right and producing.
He barely ever had any clue about game design though.
bros i wish i was a programmer 30 years ago
Naka is a pathological liar, but the stooges from the endless salt factory known as SoA are not any better.
i wouldn't have thought a Saturn could be easily programmed in asm certainly not 3D games due to all the matrix math required
I bet it was bad translation between the two teams. Someone with no technical know how getting told that the engine won't work for sonic extreme just saying the devs can't have it instead of explaining why they shouldn't use it.
You'd think they would've programmed all the computationally expensive tasks like rendering and 3d transforms in assembly, and just kept shit like rotate_clown() in C. Or did they have to go to Yuji Naka whenever they wanted to adjust something minor? Just day after day of "clown handling is off," "the clown world ring layout compiler is broken," "we decided to have a race of sentient mugmen that grow old and die inhabit the background of every stage."
There had to have been one other programmer on that project that knew how the thing worked, surely.
>The whole Naka threw a tantrum and killed SonicXtreme story is just another lie from former Sega of America and STI members.
They never said he threw a tantrum, they said he threatened to quit Sega if they didn't stop using it.
Stolar and Senn said they understood and respected Naka's wishes. They only lost 2 weeks of development in the end which is nothing.
It's SoA Fan Cultists who blow shit out of proportion as usual.
>They never said he threw a tantrum, they said he threatened to quit Sega if they didn't stop using it.
I would definitely call that a tantrum m8
I wouldn't.
I call it being protective of your work and rightfully being upset somebody used your work without permission.
This is one of the few cases where I'll defend Naka. And I understand why he'd be so paranoid considering Sega screwed him with Sonic 1 originally when he just asked for a raise after he finished Sonic 1 and was denied.
When you make something for a company, it belongs to them. Naka wanted to make himself exempt from that rule and threw a tantrum to get his way. Obviously it worked, just like a toddler sometimes gets his way. Naka not getting a pay raise after Sonic 1 sucks but it's not like withholding the code from STI would've done anything to alleviate that.
It didn't really belong to SoA and as far as we know it's still not certain if the story is true or not.
But it doesn't matter who it belongs to either way. Naka became distrusting after how SoJ treated him after he made Sonic 1 and it was a success.
You know that if they treated you like that after you made a huge success you would behave the same way. Stop being a corporate bootlicker.
It at least belonged to SoJ, meaning it was in their rights to let STI borrow it.
>You know that if they treated you like that after you made a huge success you would behave the same way.
I'd express my discontent in other ways besides withholding my code from uninvolved parties, especially if I had already developed a reputation for being difficult to work with.
>Stop being a corporate bootlicker.
If you make something for an entity then that work belongs to that entity, whether it'd be the company or the government. That's how it generally works unless you have enough bargaining power to negotiate a better deal. That's how it works and has for most of history, recognizing this doesn't make me a "bootlicker".
You're actually a circumcised bootlicker lmao.
Better for you to learn how the world works through a message board than the hard way.
>yeah ok, maybe Nikolas Tesla was actually heavily involved in creating the inventions of electricity but we shouldn't have given him the raises and benefits for his contributions because the company owns the stuff
>what? they're also profiting off of his work and claiming it for their own and not paying him adequately?
>lmao, based. Tesla can get fricked lolmao
see, here's where the current economic issues are coming from; the breakdown of trust between the people and the business is resulting in a complete breakdown across the world and people like you act surprised when you're happy passing off these stories as normal.
guess what?
it shouldn't be. Naka got screwed over hard and deserves more credit for his hard work. its another story about corrupt businesses abusing their employees to fill their own pockets and not treating their own talent fairly. and when that happens, you don't deserve to be acting like a smug butthole and throwing people like him under the bus.
I agree it shouldn't be normal but that's fundmanetally how the free market works. Businesses dick down employees to make more money.
I don't really sympathize with Naka because he does seem like a genuinely obnoxious person and he got others involved in his bullshit (not that I think Naka's engine would've saved Xtreme or anything). When I think of "victims of the free market" some dude still living better off than 99% of this board doesn't top my list.
The thing is, Naka's actions (if they did happen) indirectly contributed to making X-treme's dev cycle an even worse hell for the employees involved in it. It'd be like if Tesla withheld some electrical safety gismo he created because he was mad over not getting a raise, only for half the R&D team it was meant for to get electrocuted because of it.
Xtreme's development was already screwed long before the Nights engine came up. They were in classic development hell. They had hired a team that on paper could do the job, but in practice they got overwhelmed and after over a year of effort they had only half broken tech demos to show for it.
When the Nights engine was in play it was more smoke and mirrors where they were using it to paper over the fact that they didn't have a game by having a "boss" go through some animations while a not-clarice dressed as sonic jumped around the arena.
Seen it all before; team in development hell ramshackle a decent looking but structurally unsound demo in order to appease the management and buy some more time. They believe that with more time they'll eventually crack this 3D sonic thing, but really they were drowning.
Bear in mind that back then the internet wasn't like it was today. If you need to know a super fast algorithm for frustum culling you google it and get 10 examples ready to go. back then you were lucky if you found a cryptic .txt file on some random BBS or FTP site. Later you might find those same .txt files duplicated on a handful of geocities or .edu homepages. This meant that it was really easy for otherwise talented programmers to get irretrievably stuck on fundamental concepts.
>Sonic 1 sucks
Suck my wiener nint0ddler
Sonic 1 is a masterpiece
Quit getting mad at 30 year old children's toys.
naka is awfully lacking in humility for a nip
>Sometimes software engineers were hired instead of coders
I don't think there was so a distinction back then.