are there any games that bridge the gap between TRPGs and wargames in a good way?
I've been wanting to play more narrative games but I struggle to wrap my head around the more typical RPG experience. I do like wargames though, especially in 3mm so I'd love to play an RPG where I could use my 3mm minis, or at least one that has a gameplay loop more akin to a wargame. Does anyone know of good candidates?
Arguably Frostgrave would be one.
to a degree I suppose
>unless maybe if you do like videogames where out of combat you have a character representing everyone but as combat starts you suddenly have a party
I was loosely imagining something like the players having a character between the games but actually commanding a few units to make it interesting during the wargame part, I just don't know how to structure the non-combat parts
I would imagine the best system would be something like pokemon, you can have the human character doing the spelunking and social stuff, and the squad itself isn't intelligent enough to help without being instructed and doesn't physically exist unless summoned by the leader, but are more powerful than the human so during fights he can only serve as advisor
if you're RP as military commanders the actual soldiers would presumable have their duties or be resting when not in combat so the player character is by themselves or maybe accompanied by a few NPCs. I suppose the off-time would then be used to gain new information for the next combat session, like interrogating prisoners, evaluating intelligence, checking up on subordinate commanders, inspecting equipment etc. A ruleset that has this structured up would go a long way
5 Core Skirmish Essentials with the Company Commander and/or Battalion Commander bits and narrative campaigns. You're almost getting into co-op wargames against the game master. It has rules for that too. Solid system base, you'll have to put some of the narrative campaign work in, that's how those work, but its got decent tables and starting points for conflict, how the battles fit into a larger campaign, off duty activity, etc.
I have played 5core brigade commander, but I wasn't a huge fan. I've only heard good about the 5core games in general so I'll have to check out the other options
>Over the Hills and Far Away
I found it, seems like a pretty nice game. I'd love to see that concept but with a thirty years war theme, but maybe that's not too difficult to change
I've considered mixing some fantastical elements with the WW1 minis I have to make skirmish games so like what you're getting at
>I'll have to check out the other options
If you didn't like the one, its unlikely you'll enjoy the others, they're very similar with some adjustments for scale.
If you're stuck at using 3mm stuff but wanting to do squad control its a weird place to be.
>I just don't know how to structure the non-combat parts
Maybe look at something like Fire Emblem.
Keep the narrative parts mostly back at HQ except for special moments like important characters dying or events that might change the battlefield.
Hell, if you split it up like that, you could probably get away with using two completely different systems for individual and battlefield play.
Yes, but they're skirmish games.
>I've been wanting to play more narrative games
Almost all miniature based wargames are mostly made for narrative games, so I'm not really sure what you want. The main issue for most games is finding opponents.
a lot of people dont understand this but most modern ttrpgs (some more than others) are still wargames under the hood. That said, i cant think of any
Yes TTRPGs have their origins in wargames, and were originally played more akin to them, or even would evolve into a war game with mass combat rules
I wish. The median skirmish wargame designer is almost universally more competent and thoughtful than his RPG counterpart.
I think the biggest problem is that if every player is one character, the combat will be quite lame, if every player is a squad, then it kinda loses the roleplaying aspect...unless maybe if you do like videogames where out of combat you have a character representing everyone but as combat starts you suddenly have a party
What there needs to be is a happy middleground where each player gets a squad of unique characters and together they form a Company. Then the game is your collective military campaigns like The Black Company or some shit.
Could always represent commanders for roleplaying with subordinates being NPCs.
that is literally the reason D&D was invented, anon...
you are supposed to build a stronghold and an army once you reach level 9, switching between wargame of mass combat, and single PC adventuring
>picrel Arneson playing a wargame
>Does anyone know of good candidates?
Unironically LANCER
does it work without the mechs? I don't have any.
all my 3mm stuff is modern, but I do have some 28mm knights and WW1 soldiers. And ships and aircraft in 3mm and 1/2400. Ideally I want to play with other people, I've heard about some of your suggestions but I'll have to look closer at them
>does it work without the mechs? I don't have any.
As long as you can provide a hex (or square) grid map and paper tokens, you're good.
yeah that would work of course, I was thinking more if it's possible to replace the mechs with other vehicles
As long as you can plausibly imagine these other vehicles do stuff like grabbing each other, swinging swords, and hacking other vehicles into space.
I personally enjoy slapping a hexgrid over a combat map in roll20 using some of the nice sprites you can find around
WWI stuff is cool and knights are cool if you've got tanks and vehicles that match a country with an active calvary. How would you feel about a setting that's like.. Stargate. Portals to other worlds. Something where pulling a mismatched size 1 inch skeleton would look like something worth using a limited supply of tank ammo?
I would use system you like for combat and another one for noncombat. Something where statting damage for a Skeleton or Demon might make sense.
Stargate might work as a model for stories, limits, and how you are the main characters investigate things while parking our jeep and tank and supply truck that has the crank guns to guard our way home (all we could get with tensions in europe as they are) and ride horses and carry rifles and pistols across unfamiliar lands. No roads and limited supply of fuel makes those horses valuable.
Build the game up in the months before the Archduke gets killed and let players know they'll be stopping around then. Divide up command of units fairly. Set rules for what to do if radio contact is cut for long periods of time, as in, do we blow the gate.
A scientist/medical expert, a politcal appointee who commands calvary a personel commander, and a tank commander might be your cannidates.
The scientist gets to use bullshit sci-fi weapons from the jeep. Start him off with a stargate-like staff, like a plasma launcher. Lets call it limited uses and a recharge time. Think of him as a medic with a rechargeable rocket launcher. That staff is why you're investigating the portals.
Change whatever you need to, inspiration is just a starting point, tabletop tradition is we modify rules to make the best games for our groups with what we have.
What setting do you like (fantasy, sci-fi or modern)?
Solo play or with friends?
Some systems would be:
Mordheim
Warcry
Stargrave and/or Frostgrave
Five Leagues from the Borderlands
Five Parsecs from Home
Didn't D&D 3e had a splat for that?
Somewhere in the /hwg/ folders, probably Horse and Musket, there's an 18th century hybrid wargame RPG, called Over the Hills and Far Away. Very rules light on the wargame front, you could bolt near any preferred system on, but the RPG element is that each of the players is an aristocrat who raises a regiment, chooses their secret objectives, and juggles civilian and military life, reputation, and income. Even if the era is not of interest, it could easily fuel your imagination and be adapted to a similar concept for say ancient wargaming for example. Romans.
Another example is Sam Mustafa's American Civil War game, Longstreet.
I don't know about formal rulesets, but at the very least have you tried a little narrative campaign? Little bonuses as it goes on, so if a unit survives the battle above half strength (or whatever) it gets a point, get to x points and they get a small bonus (reroll morale perhaps, or at least a modifier? Bonus to spotting? You get the idea - something not game breaking but would be a nuisance to lose from sufficiently high casualties). Add a few non-models-on-table elements between battles - road ahead is blocked by civvies fleeing, wat do? You can brass 'em up and move on fairly swiftly, but expect IED rolls between tabletop games, or Opfor gets a morale upgrade from grim determination. Weave your way through, force them off the road? Fine, it'll take time and means the defenders get a turn of digging in/ minor defensive bonus in the next scenario - you get the sort of thing I'm talking about, right?
Fairly simple, very videogame-like dilemmas I'll admit, but they can build experience.
Another very basic option is to take inspiration from old rules that had Commander's Disposition rules, "normal, "bold", and "cautious" usually, and try to move and attack with the units accordingly. This is more literally 'role-playing' and may occasionally force you to do something that seems stupid, but history is of course littered with premature attacks, or those not launched that should have been, etc. Add extra descriptors as required and see how you go.
As others have said, you are walking along a reasonably well-travelled road, if you can figure out the right search terms you'll find a lot of inspiration, I have no doubt.
Ah! My dude, I have been desperately looking for that.
The hardest part isn't even what you may think:
Creating a stand-in for your character in a wargame is easy enough, the trouble is the initiative:
Wargames with pointlessly creative activation systems are usually hardwired to be played by two people, therefore aren't compatible with GM Vs players situations.
And every other recent wargame has a pointlessly creative activation system, it seems.
personally Im a fan of the old hex and counter way of activating (also bolt action) just put a counter for every unit in play in a mug and activate them as drawn. Heroes and Elite Units can have multiple counters. you can even throw some event counters in the max to prompt a roll on some event table to keep things interesting.
One of the more subtle but powerful effects I've seen was in DBM. For those unfamiliar, each General (and an army will have at least 3, iirc) rolls a d6 and that's how many activation points that command has that turn.
However, the game distinguishes between Regulars and Irregulars. Irregulars roll each dice individually, Regulars roll all together and can then allocate each one as they wish. Doesn't sound like much but it would send an old opponent of mine mad when I just gave my Romans whatever I wanted whilst his great flanking manoeuvre was apparently on a relaxing stroll through the countryside.
>Five Leagues from the Borderland
>Five parsecs from Home
>Rangers of Shadowdeep
All of them are RPG lite/miniature hybrids. I guess a nareative Battletech campaign could also fit the bill
Five Parsecs is awesome, it also includes a chapter for optional rules for roleplaying with or without a GM instead of just doing with it table rolls only.
Sam Mustafa wargames work well in this context. His ACW game Longstreet is literally designed to be played as a series of games with individual units gaining and losing strength and stats. Also dysentery.
I would dream of a game that's basically Dynasty Warriors/Fire Emblem : the ttrpg.
>Combat is a platoon-sized wargame.
>Units are formations of troops
>Players are heroes and/or leaders
>They can join a unit to direct it, order it and assist it
>They can go around the map, joining one unit, then another
>Undirected units are run by a simple AI/ the GM. Basically just go straight ahead and fight the units they encounter.
>Leader heroes can increase their unit's moral and send sergeants to give order to nearby units
>Magical users cast spells
>Warrior players can act as a spearhead in the unit they joined, or even sometimes be able to hold their own against an entire enemy unit, even without the assistance of a friendly unit. Not wipe it singlehandedly but stop one on its tracks, delay it, or break its formation.
I guess I'll have to design it myself.
that shouldn't be very difficult, it's pretty similar to warhammer for example so it might actually be worth using those rules (40k or fantasy depending on taste) and changing some things to fit your ideas
>it's pretty similar to warhammer
Any edition, or is there one that would be better/closer to where I want to go?Maybe I could start with OPR?
4th and 5th edition WHFB.
Its sort of funny people are accidentally looping back around to 4th/5th edition herohammer.
thinking some more on this I think the main issue why this would be difficult is that in your more traditional RPG you're playing one person (in a small party) that is largely independent and not limited by a chain of command or other obligations so the player and party are free to do what they want and there are a lot more opportunities for detailed non-combat activities while in a wargame or theoretical RP wargame your character would presumable be the commander that already has a ton of duties, expectations and limitations placed on them, especially in more regimented and organized forces. Even as a lieutenant your character can't just frick off to the local town for a few days, he has a job to do.
Maybe this could be counteracted by making the player more of an organizer and leader that can dispatch other people to do the things a player character or party would do in a more normal RPG. Not sure how fun that would be to play though. With enough time and effort I'm sure you can produce a ton of roll charts for different activities the player unit(s) get up to between combat missions, I wonder if anyone has done that.
Ship pic because age of sail ships, especially frigates and smaller, would actually be a case where the captain would often be the highest authority far from higher command and could do almost anything he wanted. Service at distant stations 1500-1880ish would probably be a good candidate for a RP wargame/campaign wargame
the big hurdle you need to over come is the discrepincy in players.
wargames are almost universally 1v1.
while ttrpgs are mainly cooperative games with an upper limit of 5-6 players plus a dm.
people will say frostgrave, stargrave, moonstone, relicblade and what ever wild west skirmish fits your fancy can play well with multiple people.
but these wargames are made for two players in mind.
theres was never a wargame to my recollection that was developed to be played with 5 or six people all on a board.
each player controlling a company or battalion each with different roles, not sure if that would be fun for everyone though, GM controls the enemy forces
would have to.
thered be so much downtime in similar game that played players opposing each other.
Mechwarrior RPG with all the Mech battles being played out using Alpha Strike rules.
You probably wouldn't be into the setting, and likely don't have the miniatures because nam stuff is relatively rare, but this game is a fantastic mix of TTRPG and wargame. You play as the squad/platoon leader, your underlings receive general orders and execute them, as long as they are in line of site you can control them but the second they move beyond that, you lose control and they execute your orders to the best of your ability, depending on your leadership score. the goal isn't to complete each mission, but to make sure your squad leader survives 12 games (length of a tour), so if you land and immediatly get ambushed and lose half your squad, expecting to die, sometimes you gotta call for evac instead of just pushing through until you lose everything. its a great way to run a counter insurgency style game because you can have hidden units without relying on blinds, DM interactions with civilians, and create a narrative. It should be very easy to adapt to any other setting, or, you can just take its design framework and philosophy and slap it onto some other game, using its combat rules instead of CC's native combat.
Warband games, they are coming back in vogue too.
Here's a free one to look over.
>manage a crew of different units that level up and gain stats traits and abilities
>simple but impactful limb and cover damage, encouraging page-protector play
>equip them with armor weapons and gear you salvage buy and steal
>randomly generate a skirmish or entire narrative campaign using the dominance system and scenario sequencer, tracking all players progress and throwing curveballs to the packleaders
>down time activities where players put their idle hands to work, scouting, treating the wounded, running supplies and raiding, these can change the upcoming scenarios, or derail the campaign entirely
>ai enemies and global events that can crash the party, from small bandit parties to raidbosses like the murk titan and kaleidomorph
https://mkfiver.itch.io/sarcophagus-dust-of-nations
the mechanics sound pretty neat. Is this vidya or a way to keep track of a tabletop game?
It's a warband game system.
It's just a notepad doc and a pdf duplicate.
alright I took a look and I like the general idea, are there a lot of these types of games and where can I find them? Searching for warband games just gives results for mount and blade warband
They are sometimes also called "skirmish games", but as with anything in the hobby adding "tabletop" or "wargame" to the search eases up the search on google.
Other games in the genre:
Mordheim
Rangers of CHADowdeep
Warcry
Frostgrave
Necromunda
Moonstone
15 Parsecs
Pulp!
2/3rd of Ospreys good releases
Warband games are built for group play, most of these titles I've played at my LGS in a weekly format.
People like campaigns so much that guys at the shop use the old warhammer hexmaps to run campaigns for their pitched battle wargames.
Skies the limit, since warband games will get as complicated as you let them.
>2/3rd of Ospreys good releases
which ones are the good ones? From what I've heard osprey games are all over the place because they tend to put their name on rulesets without being overly critical
I have a similar quest in searching for the perfect ttrpg that supports some sort of grand narrative of battles being fought.
That being said, I'd rather have tactics and strategies be something more abstract than actually pushing minis around a board and roll for every hit.
Let's say I want to play out some sort of space armada battle. Just doing mass-combat resolution rolls always feels kinda lame and my players don't feel that involved. But switching to wargame drags it down again.
I need something where roleplaying a a daring commander that favours the aggressive approach, can be rewarded with bonuses.
Something that gives the players a feeling of making big brain plays in character.
Currently I'm trying to homebrew the genesys system in that regard a little bit.
What if you took a normal wargame and then just added small decisions and events that the GM throws in before, during and after the games. Maybe have some really simple stats for the player characters reflecting their positions in the chain of command and a simple die resolution system.
It would only require the GM to have a decent knowledge of the setting to come up with good events, but otherwise it's just a normal wargame campaign with some extra chrome
some of the crunchier fate implementations can handle this pretty well. like Diaspora has rules for military operations with maps and miniatures, and bridges that smoothly with personal level shit and space flight logistics. two ways you could use that. one would be to extend that in to your own implementation with more focus on the military aspect since that will be your main gameplay mode. the other would be to take a wargame you already like and just tack an ultra-light fate module on the side of it to handle the zoomed-in sequences.
there's a more generalized version of this here
>https://fate-srd.com/fate-system-toolkit/means-war-mass-combat
if you want to do this, layer on setting-specific crunch. fate's core system is intended to be universal (which is nice if you want to use the same system for working out large battles and for a meeting in the command tent later), but that also tends to mean that on its own it feels very bland. all the really decent fate versions are the ones that build some extra crunch on top of it to bring it in to the setting.
I've heard the old editions of Twilight 2000 were relatively close to being a war game though I've never played them.
Mordheim is the obvious choice.
There have been some good suggestions here already but I'll also throw out Battletech/Mechwarrior as an option if you're into mechs/sci-fi stuff. The RPG (Mechwarrior) is literally designed to slot into the wargame and you'll be playing Battletech with a little extra to resolve mech combats.
Yeah that's a pretty great add.
Mechwarrior goes without saying so much that people stopped saying it.
Always worth mentioning, those systems are robust.
battletech/mechwarrior is also mechs only (as the name suggests) I presume? Bit of a shame that the official scale is 6mm so even if I printed it in 3mm to fit the minis it would be "proprietary" compared to everyone else's minis
While the focus is indeed on the mechs, non-mech units (infantry, tanks, aviation etc.) are also present.
has anyone made general resources for wargame campaign play, like collections of relevant charts and stats and guides on how to build a campaign?