Its just turn based but you can see when its your turn again. Its not that hard. Sometimes it adds a degree of strategy when using priority (like limits in ff7) or quick menu navigation but most of the time its not even that relevant
You can also have characters skip their turn to keep it "loaded in the chamber" when you need it which is something I can't think of other RPG systems doing
ATB, done properly, plays sort of like a QTE-simulator, very engaging. But what game ARE you talking about, OP? FF12 doesnt use ATB
>FF12 doesnt use ATB
are you guys moronic? the ATB bar is right there on the screen. the only difference being that actions are automatically executed via scripted ai.
sure but they felt the need to differentiate it.
if this is an argument you want to have, be prepared to deal with referencing the difference between turn-based and ATB
In FF12 characters select actions, wait for them to charge and then perform them before immediately selecting another action, which is basically the opposite of ATB
Because X-2 was the first FF game capable of handling simultaneous actions, and also had the combo system to make use of proper timing (not that you needed it, the game was easy af)
Entering a menu minimizes the penalty but doesn't remove it entirely, especially if you decide you went into the wrong menu and have to back out.
But if you ever actually played an "ATB" game that auto-paused as soon as your turn menu you'll quickly notice it feels very different (assuming you have something approaching average human intelligence). And it's most likely not going to be called ATB. Look at Xenogears for a game where you have turn meters that fill up in real time, but then auto-pauses for each turn. It's not ATB at all.
You are in no position to talk about people being mentally moronic.
It's an inherently bad system, much like RTwP. Unlike RTwP, it can be salvaged fairly easily, just pause the game when someone's ATB meter fills.
I expect low-thought, low-IQ posters in Final Fantasy threads, but they are usually not as dumb as the barely-sentient mental patients who shit up WRPG threads talking about how RTwP sucks. > it can be salvaged fairly easily, just pause the game when someone's ATB meter fills.
What a moron. If you pause when ATB meter fills, it's not ATB. It's just CTB with a (pointless) real-time delay between turns.
ATB is when you take (Wizardry/M&M style) turn-based combat and then add a real-time gimmick to punish player indecision by letting enemies take their turn first if the player hesitates. If you take away the pressure to be decisive at the turn menu, it's not ATB.
RTwP is when you take a combat system modeled with realistic flow of time, and then add features that allow for arbitrarily complex micromanagement of units that would otherwise not be reasonable for a player to accomplish in real time.
In other words, the systems have essentially opposite design goals.
ATB adds real-time pressure to a turn-based system.
RTwP adds "take as long as you want" turn-based decision-making to a real-time system. (Or potentially, more sophisticated AI options to help the player micromanage their units)
>If you pause when ATB meter fills, it's not ATB. It's just CTB with a (pointless) real-time delay between turns.
Yes and CTB is a good system. That is the point. >In other words, the systems have essentially opposite design goals.
But they have one important thing in common, which is that there are a grand total of zero RPGs using either of those systems that have good combat.
>that there are a grand total of zero RPGs using either of those systems that have good combat.
grandia and baten kaitos origins are bothe ATB and have the best rpg battle systems so there goes that theory
The ATB system's biggest downside is the combination of bars charging during attack animations and the queue system, especially bad for FF9 because the animations are so long so every character gets a new turn after every action
It really only works in games like X-2, XIII or Grandia where either the action continues seamlessly in real time or the bars stop during elaborate actions
ATB is good on paper, but, consider this:
The latest game from the ATB creator, Dungeon Encounters, was described by him with a simple "gauge simulator", where you mostly look at gaugess filling. Thats what I dislike. Hid gauges for enemies, add animation tells to their attack, and you have alot more engaging a brain activity-inducing combat in hands.
>ATB is good on paper
ATB is just one way to make turn-based combat systems with no "battlefield" more interesting and dynamic. It's not the only way. >Hid gauges for enemies, add animation tells to their attack
The very first ATB game did not show gauges and the final boss of the game telegraphs his Big Bang move with a shaking animation. Beyond that you're supposed to get a feel for the combat rhythm so you can predict how much time you have before the next enemy action.
I feel like I'm in a fricking alternate dimension because no FF game has ever been so hard that I ever had to worry about the active part of the battle system and all ATB ever felt like was just a quicker paced version of a normal Turn based system like Dragon Quest used. I legitimately don't know where some of you are having the problem.
JRPGs are easy to explain - Japan is a society where drones work from early hours of the moring to late in the evening. They also commute for at least 2hrs per day. They play mindless 3240923942949249294 damage games to pass time on train commutes.
you don't. go back to fortnite.
Are you an idiot?
Its just turn based but you can see when its your turn again. Its not that hard. Sometimes it adds a degree of strategy when using priority (like limits in ff7) or quick menu navigation but most of the time its not even that relevant
You can also have characters skip their turn to keep it "loaded in the chamber" when you need it which is something I can't think of other RPG systems doing
ATB is a novelty, and FF12 doesn't use it.
>FF12 doesn't use it.
>FF12 doesnt use ATB
are you guys moronic? the ATB bar is right there on the screen. the only difference being that actions are automatically executed via scripted ai.
they called it "Active Dimension Battle" anon
a rose by any other name . . .
sure but they felt the need to differentiate it.
if this is an argument you want to have, be prepared to deal with referencing the difference between turn-based and ATB
In FF12 characters select actions, wait for them to charge and then perform them before immediately selecting another action, which is basically the opposite of ATB
It's a cast time bar, not ATB
FF4 also had cast times on top of ATB but they dropped that mechanic except for X-2 for some reason
Because X-2 was the first FF game capable of handling simultaneous actions, and also had the combo system to make use of proper timing (not that you needed it, the game was easy af)
FF12 is RTwP with action macros not ATB. ATB is a type of TB so it uses no positioning.
ATB, done properly, plays sort of like a QTE-simulator, very engaging. But what game ARE you talking about, OP? FF12 doesnt use ATB
>guy you move
attack nearest enemy
>teammates
attack leaders target
then put heal when 50% and cure all status effects
there game won
Why are zoomers just now pretending that atb is any different to turn based?
because ATB isn't turn based.
ATB= Enemy will keep attacking you if you don't do anything
Turn based= Enemy waits.
You can usually turn that off, or just enter a menu lol.
Entering a menu minimizes the penalty but doesn't remove it entirely, especially if you decide you went into the wrong menu and have to back out.
But if you ever actually played an "ATB" game that auto-paused as soon as your turn menu you'll quickly notice it feels very different (assuming you have something approaching average human intelligence). And it's most likely not going to be called ATB. Look at Xenogears for a game where you have turn meters that fill up in real time, but then auto-pauses for each turn. It's not ATB at all.
You're moronic. Turn based just means the battle system operates on turns. ATB still uses turns and a turn order.
12 is more like KOTOR or Dragon Age: Origins [which even stole it's AI system].
FFXII is RTWP, doesn't surprise me morons on the rpg board don't know the difference
just because there are bars filling doesn't make it ATB
It's an inherently bad system, much like RTwP. Unlike RTwP, it can be salvaged fairly easily, just pause the game when someone's ATB meter fills.
Be too mentally moronic for turn-based and yet too physically moronic for real-time as well. Much like RTwP.
You are in no position to talk about people being mentally moronic.
I expect low-thought, low-IQ posters in Final Fantasy threads, but they are usually not as dumb as the barely-sentient mental patients who shit up WRPG threads talking about how RTwP sucks.
> it can be salvaged fairly easily, just pause the game when someone's ATB meter fills.
What a moron. If you pause when ATB meter fills, it's not ATB. It's just CTB with a (pointless) real-time delay between turns.
ATB is when you take (Wizardry/M&M style) turn-based combat and then add a real-time gimmick to punish player indecision by letting enemies take their turn first if the player hesitates. If you take away the pressure to be decisive at the turn menu, it's not ATB.
RTwP is when you take a combat system modeled with realistic flow of time, and then add features that allow for arbitrarily complex micromanagement of units that would otherwise not be reasonable for a player to accomplish in real time.
In other words, the systems have essentially opposite design goals.
ATB adds real-time pressure to a turn-based system.
RTwP adds "take as long as you want" turn-based decision-making to a real-time system. (Or potentially, more sophisticated AI options to help the player micromanage their units)
>If you pause when ATB meter fills, it's not ATB. It's just CTB with a (pointless) real-time delay between turns.
Yes and CTB is a good system. That is the point.
>In other words, the systems have essentially opposite design goals.
But they have one important thing in common, which is that there are a grand total of zero RPGs using either of those systems that have good combat.
CTB is just different.
And you're just wrong in second count. Pretty pathetic really.
>that there are a grand total of zero RPGs using either of those systems that have good combat.
grandia and baten kaitos origins are bothe ATB and have the best rpg battle systems so there goes that theory
And yet ATB and RTwP are both still worse than either real time or turn-based.
Prove it.
Spoiler: you can't
>Prove it.
There's a reason only mediocre JRPGs use it, like FF.
Start with FF4 or FF5 and if you can't get into it, you know what to do.
The ATB system's biggest downside is the combination of bars charging during attack animations and the queue system, especially bad for FF9 because the animations are so long so every character gets a new turn after every action
It really only works in games like X-2, XIII or Grandia where either the action continues seamlessly in real time or the bars stop during elaborate actions
ATB is good on paper, but, consider this:
The latest game from the ATB creator, Dungeon Encounters, was described by him with a simple "gauge simulator", where you mostly look at gaugess filling. Thats what I dislike. Hid gauges for enemies, add animation tells to their attack, and you have alot more engaging a brain activity-inducing combat in hands.
>ATB is good on paper
ATB is just one way to make turn-based combat systems with no "battlefield" more interesting and dynamic. It's not the only way.
>Hid gauges for enemies, add animation tells to their attack
The very first ATB game did not show gauges and the final boss of the game telegraphs his Big Bang move with a shaking animation. Beyond that you're supposed to get a feel for the combat rhythm so you can predict how much time you have before the next enemy action.
I feel like I'm in a fricking alternate dimension because no FF game has ever been so hard that I ever had to worry about the active part of the battle system and all ATB ever felt like was just a quicker paced version of a normal Turn based system like Dragon Quest used. I legitimately don't know where some of you are having the problem.
Thanks for reminding me I wanted to play that game for 20 years
JRPGs are easy to explain - Japan is a society where drones work from early hours of the moring to late in the evening. They also commute for at least 2hrs per day. They play mindless 3240923942949249294 damage games to pass time on train commutes.
That's it. That's what JRPG design is about.