*bans fun pokemon, moves and mechanics such as ursaluna, ogerpon, greninja, garchomp, blaziken, baton pass, swagger, shadow tag and dynamax because smogon hates fun*
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*bans fun pokemon, moves and mechanics such as ursaluna, ogerpon, greninja, garchomp, blaziken, baton pass, swagger, shadow tag and dynamax because sm...
Just play ubers where all your favorite things are.
You're supposed to use > no *
You can always find those fun things in AG, Timmy.
so pokemon is a game where you spend almost all of the battles in a singles format and then you say frick you, you’re only allowed to play doubles VGC and any other format isn’t allowed because you said so?
Snorlax and Baton Pass ruined singles for TPCI, they fear what they created
BSS is also an official format. VGC is only for the irl championship.
When your definition of "fun" appears to be "things I can use to no-brain win at low ladder" yeah, that's a good thing.
>gen 6 greBlack person
>fun
>garchomp
he was banned because of sandveil
>shadow tag
>dynamax
>ogerpon hearthflame
If you dont recognize all of these as blatant bullshit then theres no helping you
>baton pass and swagge
I agree with this one, baton pass really wasnt a problem with the no speed passing + limited to 1 mon clause but smogon doesnt like complex bans so they just got rid of baton pass all together. Really its more of the playerbase than smogon because it was really just ABR and finch who wanted batonpass banned outright while the rest of the council wanted to do multiple suspect tests for baton pass. the community just kept banning every iteration of BP until it was comically useless. I hated facing 5 passer chains with ingrain and magic bounce and shit but that was never really the reason people hated BP, it was almost exclusively because you could baton pass some speed and defense to a bulky ass mega pokemon and 6-0 like mega gyara or latios. All it takes is 1 team slot to pass to your mega or a different sweeper. this anti revenge-kill passing was probably what made the community so adamant about banning baton pass. IIRC it got banned in x/y but i voted no ban on every iteration after the first one when they limited baton pass to 3 per team.
baton pass' main issue is that it's something you either win or lose against almost entirely by matchup instead of player skill
when smogon has a burning hatred for matchup fishing and wants the game to be as chess-like as possible
it's why gen 9 has had like 500 bans so far because there's so much shit that just kills you from matchup alone
that was only an issue with the full pass teams. by the time of giga nerfed BP if your one revenge killer gets raped by a tankier version of the mon that its supposed to check then its up to you to make sure that pokemon never gets baton passed to. you arent powerless and at the point it was banned they couldnt even increase their speed before passing on their singular baton pass mon. the reality is that the player base was tired of getting shit on by multiple consecutive suspect ladders full of rain and baton pass and couldnt have an objective view of the mechanic anymore. they just wanted that shit gone.
Gen 9 has had 3 kinds of bans:
>Gets an OC move or ability that's totally busted
>Gets a combination of a move and ability that end up being way too much to deal with unless you have a specific answer
>The ability to change its type at a moment's notice to completely nullify previous counters lets it snowball ridiculously hard
if you're anti- baton pass in any way shape or form, make absolutely unequivocally no mistake:
You are a smogonhomosexual.
I never got the hate for Baton pass. It's easy to mess up chains and the pokemon starting the boost typically isn't very offensively minded in the first place. Having a Hazer or someone that can Roar is a pretty good policy in the first place.
Wanna know how i know you didnt play during baton pass meta?
No, I didn't. How do teams setup for that deal with hazing and/or roar? Ingrain doesn't stop being hazed.
What is any hazer going to do?
Prankster Murkrow says hi
and yes, you have to use this absolute gimmick to stand a chance
Unless the other dude has a priority move or a dark type on the field
dark types aren't immune to prankster haze, actually.
Haze doesn't target anyone, so it's not blocked by abilities.
But what's it going to do after hazing?
Taunt, tailwind and memento
>memento
So have a nice day to not even stop the chain?
No, you have a nice day and start your own setup once you blocked the chain with haze and/or taunt
Of course this build is purely a shit gimmick but it's good for the sole purpose of disrupting a baton pass chain
magic bounce espeon was always thrown into the chain specifically for taunt and roar
Haze was a completely dead move except vs baton pass and even against baton pass you could just taunt/kill the hazer. Basically no one ran haze outside of stall. There was also trapping moves to kill opposing taunt users and if all else failed stored power espeon/xatu shits on every single phaser in the 3 bp meta while anchoring the passers against status.
The REAL baton pass killers were imprison, perish song, and red card. Red card was unstoppable phazing that works against teams that also arent baton pass and imprison baton pass was an auto GG vs baton pass teams in the mirror match. Infiltrator and perish song were also used but the mons that use it were dogshit or they were exactly azumaril. The best way to beat baton pass was just putting redcard on already meta teams. Then when it was limited to one baton passer the meta to counter bp changed because teams would instead focus on passing the same speed/defense to multiple sweepers on the team multiple times. Haze and phaze wouldnt really help since the point was to pass repeatedly rather than make a baton pass chain. Ironically banning baton pass from being a teamwide move made it even more oppressive because the counters to baton pass chains either dont work or the ones that do work dont get used because now theres only 1 bp user to counter.
Quagsire and clefable were also used as set up mons to counter baton pass which was a funny period in time that made baton pass and rain teams start packing toxic just to counter those two frickers.
Actually helpful answers, thanks. Makes way more sense to me now.
isn't Imprison BP only learned by Musharna
Mew and xatu had it in gen 6 and those were the only mons i saw it on although xatu absolutely needed its 4 slots so im not sure what it gave up
As someone that abused BP there are 3 Pokémon that solved it's issues, bulky Talonflame, Gothitrap and a mega of choice between Heracross, Lopunny or Gyarados
Gothitrap removed unaware users or hazers from the equation, Talonflame eliminated revenge killers or anti BP leads
And the mega of choice was a panic button, Gyarados broke through unaware Heracross with just +2 speed broke most teams and lopunny wasn't just a cleaner late game but had BP itself to set up Gothitrap
There are also other scenarios where gothitrap alone won the game but they where rare
I personally loved making gothitrap+slow volturner and lopunny dry pass cores just because they were free wins on their on their own, the ban on BP was justified it gave too much advantage even as a dry pass switch move
why don't they do a suspect test for BP and evasion in gen 9? it's annoying that they refuse to go back and reconsider past ban decisions when the meta is different and gamefreak has nerfed shit.
>gothitelle
I now remember dugtrio talon sableye stall
Ye, so good bro. Gimme back my bro Mega-Sableye. Shit's not even broken anymore. Also Mega-Beedrill back too please!
i played during baton pass meta and it wasn't bad. smogon bans anything offensive.
It was bad players crying as usual. If the baton passer is in you attack, if it's coming in you make a prediction and either attack it or switch to a counter. If it sets up on something that can't do anything to it that's called being beat.
Ye, like something you refuse to do when bested with words. But you are right, you can continue to document this for posterity. Glhf anon. Get that win you've been looking for, BP Zapdos is a great mon. In gen 3 of course. I do prefer double screens roost volt switch of a post virtual consol gen 7 era myself.
well said
And when it starts using Minimize? I guess everything in the game without haze loses
Fire Ogerpon does more damage than Zacian and Mega Rayquaza, has base 110 speed that can get to +1 easily without much in way of being punished for it, and has the bulk to take most hits and recovery to take her back up. How is this not problematic to you? She actually works well with Koraidon in Ubers as well.
It's fun to use her, it's not problematic when both players use her instead of you going against it.
And I bet if most of things that were banned, weren't banned, she wouldn't be that big of a deal.
The "fun" argument is the same reason Tera wasn't banned and why the meta is in an irredeemable state. But honestly, because it is, they should have just left her in to punish the people who let Tera remain rampant. Being able to use her for both players doesn't balance her out though. You basically would handicap yourself for not using her on a given team and then playing 2-3 soft checks in hopes to deal with her.
Nah Tera is a perfectly fine mechanic with strategic use meant for higher IQ people.
Fact is the Gen 9 meta is just inherently fricked since powercreep here is even bigger than Gen 5. Additionally also nerfing recovery moves making everything else even stronger.
Fact is, only Pokemon who are broken because of Tera are Regieleki, Shedinja, Espathra, and maybe Volcarona or Annihilape too. Everything else in Ubers or on the radar looks broken or has high chance of still being broken.
Keep in mind, that powercreep in Gen 9 was powercrept in fricking Gen 9. Roaring Moon, a Pokemon with insane stats and ability dropped to UU and only came back up after Bax was banned and got Knock Off.
And Bax was only banned because of Ninetales providing it with x3 Def and x2 SpD and Bax got fricking Scale Shot, which was also buffed this gen thanks to loaded dice.
Frankly its hard to think anyone is blaming Tera and not the absurdly busted Pokemon introduced.
The new Pokemon are amazingly busted, but tera helps existing setup sweepers run away with games so much more easily.
Dont forget that chink pow and chi yu got banned for their same type tera in order to get the adaptability boost,palafin if im not mistake got the boot because of the taunt bulk up set.
So in the end of the day,without tera much likely the only bans would be iron blunde(debatable though),flutter mane,espathra,last respects mons,shed tail and most likely bax
>when both players use her
both players having an instant win button doesnt make the instant win button fair and it certainly doesnt make it fun. this is a nonsense argument
>Midwits when they use the "It's just FUUUUUN" argument.
>It's fun to use her
But not when it's in Ubers where other Pokemon can actually match its power?
Are you sure you actually enjoy using Ogerpon itself and not just steamrolling other teams with zero strategy and skill?
>dood if you press the same button 6 times in a row it'll be fun!
>you can counter her with 3 esoteric sunflora sets no scam your remaining 3 slots are free of charge
>WHAT??? YOU DON'T WANT TO USE ANOTHER FOTM HO WAIFU???????? FRICK YOU SMOGONtroony KILL YOUSELF DEOXYS OR MIRAIDON WOULD HAVE COUNTERED HER ANYWAY
le sigh
Is freedom cup still there?
smogontrannies are still losing to belly drum linoone in 2023
it's unironically true
The fact that they banned Baton Pass just means they don’t want to play the game to me.
Smogonhomosexuals hate Pokemon.
Considering Smogon's habit of banning fan favorites without caring about how Pokemon fans might feel about it? Yeah, it's pure hatred.
>me when omgon doesn't consider my feelings
Not as much as Gamefreak.
To me I just don't think the rest of us are concerned with you unqualified "to me"
It's pronounced
>you
They should at least let us use substitute baton pass but “omgon no like compexity :~~* “ so no complex bans for BP.
Also, I'm going to go bump the other thread so two sources of competetive genius can be displayed on page one and in the archives for ai posterity for eternity.
Garchomp is UU
A lot of things people are complaining about could be easily solved if Smogon let go of their moronic stance on complex bans.
That's a very obvious slippery slope
But Pokémon needs it if the goal is to make a balanced meta that actually includes fun mechanics and doesn't have a ridiculously long and ever increasing banlist.
And people overreact, if the method is "this Pokémon ie under suspicion, is there anything specific that could make it balanced?". Most people seem to think it would open the floodgates for morons to ask for any ban but it would not br the case if it's adopted only for things already being looked into. It's more work but making a balanced game out of the mess that is Pokémon isn't easy.
>and doesn't have a ridiculously long and ever increasing banlist
What's wrong with that? Only people who don't play OU seem to have a problem with lots of stuff getting banned. If you discuss with the actual Showdown playerbase you'll notice that people are pushing for more bans.
>Most people seem to think it would open the floodgates for morons to ask for any ban
Opposite, it would open the floodgates for moronic un-bans.
If we allow only certain baton pass sets out of ubers, why don't we allow level 75 Eternatus as well? Why not physically defensive Mewtwo with no attacks? Crowned Zacian but only in teams with 4 Pokemon? Iron ball Pheromosa? Physical Flutter Mane?
None of these things would be broken in OU, but who's going to bother testing all this shit everytime, and who's going to bother playing a meta full of hyper-specific ad-hoc rules?
It should be limited to abilities and specific move strats only. You're talking about a level of micromanaging every mon that I don't think anyone is actually proposing.
The biggest problem would be baton pass I guess.
>specific move strats
That can be a slippery slope too, because overpowered ubers have tons of move combinations and strats that would make them shit, but if we were to take them all in consideration we would end up with an unlimited set of rules and clauses. This is amplified by the fact that items can be uber too, like Soul Dew.
arceus-bug but with no healing or boosting moves? STAB-only naganadel? hell, let's bring back lando-i but arbitrarily restrict it to sand force.
>If you discuss with the actual Showdown playerbase you'll notice that people are pushing for more bans.
*points to hogs eating slop* it must be good eating. they love it
I find your fallacy very informative
>Most people seem to think it would open the floodgates for morons to ask for any ban but it would not br the case if it's adopted only for things already being looked into.
So, "It's not going to be a slippery slope because we'll only expand our criteria for SOME Pokemon"?
why do you care? PS hosts VGC metas as well, no one is forcing you to play by smogon rules
>"W-W-W-WHAT DO YOU MEAN STALL ISN'T FUN!?"
Aaaand this is why this always be fanfic meta.
Would any banned mon make the meta 'balanced' like Gen 2 Snorlax does? Hell even Lax has the caveat of being able to be beaten once you figure out it's set. Most of the banned mons are braindead HO mons with one set.
There's only one mon we truly need