that's the whole point though. it's a bit corny but the revenge story has to end with the character realising that it was pointless and wont solve anything. them having the opportunity to kill them at the very end and they don't is like the most narratively spicy way to get that plot point across
it's such a gay and absurd modern moral. If somebody murdered a member of my family or someone I love, I'm not gonna pass up a chance to kill them because of some moronic urban artificial moral code.
you could do it that way but denying *any* kind of cathartic release after getting so far is a perfectly good way to handle it as well since it highlights the pointlessness. it's something films and other media do all the time
it just depends, i hate when people put hard limits on what you can and can't do in a story. i honestly don't think this game does it too well, but intentionally denying the audience catharsis in a narrative can be good. it all depends on what kind of emotion you're trying to convey
4 months ago
Anonymous
You certainly can write a story that ends without catharsis. And people can find that appealing, that a piece of fiction can make you feel so empty and unsatisfied. I just find that kinda gay and nihilistic personally, not particularly profound but edgy and a waste of time
i want to play as a kid of a random mook Ellie killed to get to Abby. i want to confront her, and then ask "so you killed my dad to get to this Abby girl, did you actually kill her?"
when she said no, then you get to kill her
Nah I'm pretty sure the whole point was to leave things in such a way as to set up Abby and the asian troon kid as the main characters of the next game.
No, that's shit writing. It's tantamount to "IT WAS ALL A DREAM." It's a giant middle finger to the audience for holding any sort of investment in the journey and anticipation of how it will conclude.
>It's a giant middle finger to the audience for holding any sort of investment in the journey and anticipation of how it will conclude.
The entire fricking game was that. What they did to Joel was the most blatant frick you to fans of the original game I have ever seen. DmC's white wig scene is a close second though.
The thing is the way it's handled. By this point, Ellie's lost Joel, lost that one fricker I forget the name of who got shot in the face, her surrogate uncle Tommy lost an eye and is now on a delirious murderboner rampage of vengeance himself, she walked off from her gay israeli girlfriend and the child they would've raised together, and has murdered lots of people. Mostly in self-defense, they'll all just attack her on sight even before the rampage really began, but then she cornered a woman into an infection zone and slowly beat her to death to make it as torturous and painful as humanly possible. To a shitty guard woman in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then Abby exacerbated it by killing that one dude, beating her to an inch of her life, and nearly killing said girlfriend while being all too eager to slit the latter's throat upon hearing she was pregnant.
By the point that Ellie suddenly has her flashback to a scene to forgive, which is arguably more about forgiving herself for Joel's death than forgiving Abby admittedly, she's got her target in her hands, she's lost fingers the target just bit off, she's severely wounded and likely working entirely off of adrenaline at that point. It's not about a cycle of vengeance or revenge bad that people are really upset about, it's a character who has been driven to and beyond the utter brink of murder and then 180ing in the most unrealistic way possible at the very last possible second.
and then oh no so sad she lost the fingers that helped her play guitar and her girlfriend really did leave, what a tragedy
Anon, I see your problem here.
You're expecting human actions written by a human but the game is inherently made by tunnel rats. They don't understand humans or the chemical reactions we have, so they assume adrenaline just magically vanishes because "oh I forgive you now."
It's the writing of someone that doesn't understand the human condition, the human body or the human psyche because the creator is fundamentally not human.
Once you understand this everything in the game makes sense. It's all a façade made by a tunnel rat pretending to understand what makes someone human.
It wasn't pointless, you stupid homosexual. Killing Abby was justice, it was DUTY. And Ellie abandoned it, for literally no reason. What point Neil israeliteman wanted to get across was obvious, it's just wrong and evil.
I would be good if it ocrrued at the BREAKING POINT of the game, not at the fricking ENDING.
Seriously, anyone that considers this shit a good game is a illiterate moron
>most narratively spicy
Yes, now, after the end of the story 100+ extra potential angry family members of dead npcs should want to hunt down Ellie and put her psycho ass down by smashing her head with a golf club. Good job Druckman, great writing.
It sounds like the worst thing ever made. I honest to god cannot ever imagine myself playing a video game with a female lead. My family and friends would start laughing at me.
Yes, because the author suppresses human nature in exchange for projecting his ego into the story believing that his feelings are meaningful to the audience
Stories kind of shit, but despite all the movie game memes it unironically has more raw, fun gameplay than bloodborne. It's a huge fricking game and is fun as hell. A worthy successor to things like MGS, a cinematic story with very fun stealth combat. And a lot of it.
I could not sufficiently suspend my disbelief, seeing Ellie physically overpower men twice her size all the time. Even that other girl would still be significantly weaker than the average man. Reminds me of that scene in Uncharted where Drake and his brother get their asses beat 2 vs 1, against this tiny African chick. Cmon.
I feel like it forgot its own setting multiple times.
You know, the mega murder mushroom zombies.
The two of them get mega fricked up in an underground fist fight, surviving after that was hand waved.
The two of them get into another fight at the end, one of them taking a potentially fatal liver puncture from a tree. Then she walks home.
In the zombie apocalypse
>Then she walks home.
In the zombie apocalypse
It’s abysmally moronic when the entirety of the first game makes a point to show how difficult travel is. Tommy gets fricking shot in the head but somehow Ellie and Dina who have just been brutally fricked up, with no medical tools or proper training, are able to treat him and drag him from Seattle all the way back to Wyoming. The first game has some moments where you have to suspend your disbelief but part 2 takes it to the next level
>kill off the MC in the most stupidest way possible >after years, decade even on the road, dealing with the worst scum on the earth, we're supposed to pretend like Joel would just let his guard down like that >especially with Ellie and the rest of the town basically depending on him since he's the most experienced out of everyone there >ridiculous moronic ass forced drama plot lines >random love triangle between my bae Dina, Fitlhy Frank, and Ellie for no reason at all >random pregnant chick in the army's camp is somehow on the frontlines while pregnant and getting into gun fights with Ellie and the infected >I honestly don't remember but I do know there was a troony somewhere in the story, so I'm sure /misc/tards on Ganker will deduct points for that >also, Ellie and Abby both somehow being a one man wrecking crew, it wasn't believable when Sylvester Stallone did it in Rambo and it damn sure wasn't believable when Ellie and Abby both did it >also, Abby somehow not only being a one man wrecking crew and a literal tank specimen but somehow still able to get bested by Ellie, not once, not twice, but like three times
It was just too much moronic shit. 3-4 slight changes and it wouldn't have been so bad...honestly don't even care about them killing Joel off, it was HOW they did it. It just made 0 fricking sense.
>honestly don't even care about them killing Joel off, it was HOW they did it. It just made 0 fricking sense
Frickin preach it, brother. If they wanted to kill him to set up a new story, fine. But they killed him like he was a weak moron, it just didn't make any sense at all for him to put himself in that situation. It didn't fit his character at all.
>hey Ellie, remember all that stuff I said about being careful with strangers, and being very careful with who you trust? >well actually that was all bullshit >you should invite groups of random strangers you just met into your secret hideout during a hard winter when food is scarce, then put yourself alone in the same room with them, and turn your back >it's 2024, after all
Yeah its generic
What tilted everyone is the amount of cuck sucking and praise this generic "revenge bad" story got
The director got praised as some sorte of genius, when he simple used a trope as old as time (ilyad already have that kind of plot in some form lol)
Also he divided the fan base with woke shit
Jerry's retcon is just one of a bunch with that entire series of issues. >Firefly Hospital goes from utterly shitty and grimy to rundown but fairly well kept >logs in the first game imply the Fireflies are absolute morons that can't even hope to keep test monkeys in check, much less find a cure; the sequel effectively acts like Jerry is such a top-class neurosurgeon that he would've made one if he didn't get killed, thus Joel doomed the world >Marlene was all but forced to sacrifice Ellie by the Fireflies in the original, her consent was merely a formality and apparently she had a shouting match over it; the sequel makes it so only Jerry was mildly debating with her, and she buckled and caved in to his requests like a spineless butthole that retroactively makes her seem a lot less caring for Ellie >Abby being there to affirm Jerry's feelings of apprehension about sacrificing Ellie basically stir the entire endgame of the first into motion because she just moronicly proclaimed she'd let herself die to find a cure without any actual context to what was going on
Druckmann seems absolutely obsessed with making Joel to be an unapologetic villain that ruined everything for everyone instead of leaving things morally gray and fricked up, and he retroactively tried to both whitewash the Fireflies AND made their plot even stupider at the same time to do it.
The funnier part is the garbo tv show follows the retconned version despite being s1 being the first game
It's not even a muh unreliable narrative thing anymore, he really is just asshurt and is retconning crap with how he shows things
This. Hackman just can't let go his shitty ideas. Bruce kept him in check.
First thing he did when gaining control was injecting his underage lesbian fantasies for frick's sake. This tunnel rat is a sick frick.
someone might try to go >oh but abby lost all of her friends abloobloo
but that's the people she honestly kinda fricking didn't gel with whatsoever, betrayed both emotionally and in conflict, and she mildly cared about them to get angry over their deaths but didn't even bother to hold a long term grudge over like abby did. like goddamn, abby does have some nasty fights, get captured and tortured and shit, but in the grand scheme of the entire game she's not actually punished, she just stumbles into dumb shit by random or for trying to be a good samaritan unrelated to her murders. the fact that she gets to shoot jesse fatally and tommy near-fatally, and then rounds about and brutalizes abby and dinah before walking off is the perfect highlight of how utterly fricked the writing around her character is
Idk maybe don't lunge at the person with a gun and try to stab her in the throat after she told you she wouldn't kill you
>She killed Manny!
And? He traveled across the country to torture a guy and spit on his body, what because he likes anime and is a Spanish lover stereotype he's supposed to be this epic relatable character? I'm not supposed to cheer when his brains are blown out? Frick off and die
>She killed Nora brutally!
Ok, I'm supposed to feel sorry? You took pleasure in the torture of Joel now I'll take erasure in your torture. Mocking his death to his daughters face. Bye b***h hope it hurt
Yeah
>go to hell and back to kill your "father"s killer
>kill 100+ people in between
>at the moment supreme go "no way gay", turn 360 degrees and go home
that's the whole point though. it's a bit corny but the revenge story has to end with the character realising that it was pointless and wont solve anything. them having the opportunity to kill them at the very end and they don't is like the most narratively spicy way to get that plot point across
>that's the whole point though
What if it's, like...not a good point
it's such a gay and absurd modern moral. If somebody murdered a member of my family or someone I love, I'm not gonna pass up a chance to kill them because of some moronic urban artificial moral code.
Wouldn't the spiciest way be to have them actually complete their revenge only to then be empty and unfulfilled? Nobody likes blue balls
you could do it that way but denying *any* kind of cathartic release after getting so far is a perfectly good way to handle it as well since it highlights the pointlessness. it's something films and other media do all the time
>it's something BAD films and other media do all the time
fixed
There is nothing wrong with catharsis. To deny it is pretentious, a hubristic attempt at poignancy
it just depends, i hate when people put hard limits on what you can and can't do in a story. i honestly don't think this game does it too well, but intentionally denying the audience catharsis in a narrative can be good. it all depends on what kind of emotion you're trying to convey
You certainly can write a story that ends without catharsis. And people can find that appealing, that a piece of fiction can make you feel so empty and unsatisfied. I just find that kinda gay and nihilistic personally, not particularly profound but edgy and a waste of time
i want to play as a kid of a random mook Ellie killed to get to Abby. i want to confront her, and then ask "so you killed my dad to get to this Abby girl, did you actually kill her?"
when she said no, then you get to kill her
Nah I'm pretty sure the whole point was to leave things in such a way as to set up Abby and the asian troon kid as the main characters of the next game.
Thats gay and not intelligent or deep
No, that's shit writing. It's tantamount to "IT WAS ALL A DREAM." It's a giant middle finger to the audience for holding any sort of investment in the journey and anticipation of how it will conclude.
>It's a giant middle finger to the audience for holding any sort of investment in the journey and anticipation of how it will conclude.
The entire fricking game was that. What they did to Joel was the most blatant frick you to fans of the original game I have ever seen. DmC's white wig scene is a close second though.
The thing is the way it's handled. By this point, Ellie's lost Joel, lost that one fricker I forget the name of who got shot in the face, her surrogate uncle Tommy lost an eye and is now on a delirious murderboner rampage of vengeance himself, she walked off from her gay israeli girlfriend and the child they would've raised together, and has murdered lots of people. Mostly in self-defense, they'll all just attack her on sight even before the rampage really began, but then she cornered a woman into an infection zone and slowly beat her to death to make it as torturous and painful as humanly possible. To a shitty guard woman in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then Abby exacerbated it by killing that one dude, beating her to an inch of her life, and nearly killing said girlfriend while being all too eager to slit the latter's throat upon hearing she was pregnant.
By the point that Ellie suddenly has her flashback to a scene to forgive, which is arguably more about forgiving herself for Joel's death than forgiving Abby admittedly, she's got her target in her hands, she's lost fingers the target just bit off, she's severely wounded and likely working entirely off of adrenaline at that point. It's not about a cycle of vengeance or revenge bad that people are really upset about, it's a character who has been driven to and beyond the utter brink of murder and then 180ing in the most unrealistic way possible at the very last possible second.
and then oh no so sad she lost the fingers that helped her play guitar and her girlfriend really did leave, what a tragedy
Anon, I see your problem here.
You're expecting human actions written by a human but the game is inherently made by tunnel rats. They don't understand humans or the chemical reactions we have, so they assume adrenaline just magically vanishes because "oh I forgive you now."
It's the writing of someone that doesn't understand the human condition, the human body or the human psyche because the creator is fundamentally not human.
Once you understand this everything in the game makes sense. It's all a façade made by a tunnel rat pretending to understand what makes someone human.
You have the shittiest taste in storytelling I’ve ever seen on this website and I’ve been here for over a decade. Fricking Christ.
It wasn't pointless, you stupid homosexual. Killing Abby was justice, it was DUTY. And Ellie abandoned it, for literally no reason. What point Neil israeliteman wanted to get across was obvious, it's just wrong and evil.
I would be good if it ocrrued at the BREAKING POINT of the game, not at the fricking ENDING.
Seriously, anyone that considers this shit a good game is a illiterate moron
It's AN illiterate moron, not "a illiterate moron".
Illiterate moron.
>most narratively spicy
Yes, now, after the end of the story 100+ extra potential angry family members of dead npcs should want to hunt down Ellie and put her psycho ass down by smashing her head with a golf club. Good job Druckman, great writing.
>T-thats not bad writing because, b-because....BECAUSE IT JUST ISNT CHUD!!! IM SMAHT!!! NOT DUMB LIKE EVERYBODY SAYS!!!!
I can't think of a worse example
It sounds like the worst thing ever made. I honest to god cannot ever imagine myself playing a video game with a female lead. My family and friends would start laughing at me.
This. I refuse to play as female characters. Blacks also.
I mean, this game is gay as frick, but if you care about what people will think if you play a game, you're even gayer
Yes, because the author suppresses human nature in exchange for projecting his ego into the story believing that his feelings are meaningful to the audience
Why would someone project the Israeli-Palestine conflict onto gentiles?
yes, because they played it so straight and serious while expecting us to just accept its moronic decisions and retcons
Stories kind of shit, but despite all the movie game memes it unironically has more raw, fun gameplay than bloodborne. It's a huge fricking game and is fun as hell. A worthy successor to things like MGS, a cinematic story with very fun stealth combat. And a lot of it.
There's a difference between "revenge bad" where it makes sense, and "revenge bad" where it doesn't make sense.
The Last of Us Part II is the latter.
>There's a difference between "revenge bad" where it makes sense,
There actually isn't. There isn't a single good "revenge bad" story.
Yes. The core of the story is that people do not change. That is the reason the lead writer made it so that Ellie didn't kill Abstrong.
sorry but i love TLOU2 now
I could not sufficiently suspend my disbelief, seeing Ellie physically overpower men twice her size all the time. Even that other girl would still be significantly weaker than the average man. Reminds me of that scene in Uncharted where Drake and his brother get their asses beat 2 vs 1, against this tiny African chick. Cmon.
yeah
What's Anthony Burch doing at the Golden Globes?
Ellie should've just called the police. Vigilante justice is always wrong.
I feel like it forgot its own setting multiple times.
You know, the mega murder mushroom zombies.
The two of them get mega fricked up in an underground fist fight, surviving after that was hand waved.
The two of them get into another fight at the end, one of them taking a potentially fatal liver puncture from a tree. Then she walks home.
In the zombie apocalypse
>Then she walks home.
In the zombie apocalypse
It’s abysmally moronic when the entirety of the first game makes a point to show how difficult travel is. Tommy gets fricking shot in the head but somehow Ellie and Dina who have just been brutally fricked up, with no medical tools or proper training, are able to treat him and drag him from Seattle all the way back to Wyoming. The first game has some moments where you have to suspend your disbelief but part 2 takes it to the next level
I don't know, I didn't play it. I just complain about games I've never played here.
>kill off the MC in the most stupidest way possible
>after years, decade even on the road, dealing with the worst scum on the earth, we're supposed to pretend like Joel would just let his guard down like that
>especially with Ellie and the rest of the town basically depending on him since he's the most experienced out of everyone there
>ridiculous moronic ass forced drama plot lines
>random love triangle between my bae Dina, Fitlhy Frank, and Ellie for no reason at all
>random pregnant chick in the army's camp is somehow on the frontlines while pregnant and getting into gun fights with Ellie and the infected
>I honestly don't remember but I do know there was a troony somewhere in the story, so I'm sure /misc/tards on Ganker will deduct points for that
>also, Ellie and Abby both somehow being a one man wrecking crew, it wasn't believable when Sylvester Stallone did it in Rambo and it damn sure wasn't believable when Ellie and Abby both did it
>also, Abby somehow not only being a one man wrecking crew and a literal tank specimen but somehow still able to get bested by Ellie, not once, not twice, but like three times
It was just too much moronic shit. 3-4 slight changes and it wouldn't have been so bad...honestly don't even care about them killing Joel off, it was HOW they did it. It just made 0 fricking sense.
>honestly don't even care about them killing Joel off, it was HOW they did it. It just made 0 fricking sense
Frickin preach it, brother. If they wanted to kill him to set up a new story, fine. But they killed him like he was a weak moron, it just didn't make any sense at all for him to put himself in that situation. It didn't fit his character at all.
>hey Ellie, remember all that stuff I said about being careful with strangers, and being very careful with who you trust?
>well actually that was all bullshit
>you should invite groups of random strangers you just met into your secret hideout during a hard winter when food is scarce, then put yourself alone in the same room with them, and turn your back
>it's 2024, after all
Yeah its generic
What tilted everyone is the amount of cuck sucking and praise this generic "revenge bad" story got
The director got praised as some sorte of genius, when he simple used a trope as old as time (ilyad already have that kind of plot in some form lol)
Also he divided the fan base with woke shit
Deuteronomy 23
You know it's bad when it had to retconned the entire scene that is supposed to make us understand Abby's motives
Jerry's retcon is just one of a bunch with that entire series of issues.
>Firefly Hospital goes from utterly shitty and grimy to rundown but fairly well kept
>logs in the first game imply the Fireflies are absolute morons that can't even hope to keep test monkeys in check, much less find a cure; the sequel effectively acts like Jerry is such a top-class neurosurgeon that he would've made one if he didn't get killed, thus Joel doomed the world
>Marlene was all but forced to sacrifice Ellie by the Fireflies in the original, her consent was merely a formality and apparently she had a shouting match over it; the sequel makes it so only Jerry was mildly debating with her, and she buckled and caved in to his requests like a spineless butthole that retroactively makes her seem a lot less caring for Ellie
>Abby being there to affirm Jerry's feelings of apprehension about sacrificing Ellie basically stir the entire endgame of the first into motion because she just moronicly proclaimed she'd let herself die to find a cure without any actual context to what was going on
Druckmann seems absolutely obsessed with making Joel to be an unapologetic villain that ruined everything for everyone instead of leaving things morally gray and fricked up, and he retroactively tried to both whitewash the Fireflies AND made their plot even stupider at the same time to do it.
The funnier part is the garbo tv show follows the retconned version despite being s1 being the first game
It's not even a muh unreliable narrative thing anymore, he really is just asshurt and is retconning crap with how he shows things
This. Hackman just can't let go his shitty ideas. Bruce kept him in check.
First thing he did when gaining control was injecting his underage lesbian fantasies for frick's sake. This tunnel rat is a sick frick.
JERRY ANDERSON
WAS A BLACK MAN
it never even made a statement about revenge. everyone is just too braindead to see beyond the basic plot.
it did make a statement, that it's pointless and hurts everyone
>Actions have consequences, unless you're Abby
Cool story bro
What did you expect ? Consequences are kryptonite for modern feminism.
someone might try to go
>oh but abby lost all of her friends abloobloo
but that's the people she honestly kinda fricking didn't gel with whatsoever, betrayed both emotionally and in conflict, and she mildly cared about them to get angry over their deaths but didn't even bother to hold a long term grudge over like abby did. like goddamn, abby does have some nasty fights, get captured and tortured and shit, but in the grand scheme of the entire game she's not actually punished, she just stumbles into dumb shit by random or for trying to be a good samaritan unrelated to her murders. the fact that she gets to shoot jesse fatally and tommy near-fatally, and then rounds about and brutalizes abby and dinah before walking off is the perfect highlight of how utterly fricked the writing around her character is
>But Ellie killed Owen and Mel
Idk maybe don't lunge at the person with a gun and try to stab her in the throat after she told you she wouldn't kill you
>She killed Manny!
And? He traveled across the country to torture a guy and spit on his body, what because he likes anime and is a Spanish lover stereotype he's supposed to be this epic relatable character? I'm not supposed to cheer when his brains are blown out? Frick off and die
>She killed Nora brutally!
Ok, I'm supposed to feel sorry? You took pleasure in the torture of Joel now I'll take erasure in your torture. Mocking his death to his daughters face. Bye b***h hope it hurt
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Kek. RDR is a good game to do this with too as that (and the 2nd one) are examples of stories with “revenge bad” done right
yes because it goes "REVENGE GOOD" the entire game up until the final fight
The last of us was always poorly written dreck.