Hey /tg/, my group wants me to run a Star Trek RPG, and there are quite a few systems to choose from. Does anyone have experience running games in any of these systems or have any recommendations which system to choose?
Best Star Trek TTRPG
Hey /tg/, my group wants me to run a Star Trek RPG, and there are quite a few systems to choose from. Does anyone have experience running games in any of these systems or have any recommendations which system to choose?
There's a lot, but really only two exist currently in print. The main one and the tiny solo one.
I'm not too worried about whether they're in or out of print, moreso what is the best system or at least what the pros and cons of the various systems are.
Do you realize how many Star Trek systems there are? Official and unofficial?I even gave up on finding and organizing them all. There's way too damn many. You could spend literal years simply trying to find them all, let alone actually testing them and finding which feels the most like Star Trek to you. There's probably even a version of Traveller specifically altered for just Star Trek. It's one of the most enduring sci-fi dramas of the ages, and when that broad popularity is good, it's overwhelming simultaneously.
Star Trek had a gigantic larp scene which spawned all sorts of half-documented systems and BBS games. If you're looking for larp/narrative, I'm just warning you that it's a pit you'll never escape from. That will become your life. Am I projecting about my own life issues? Probably. However, if you narrow it down to officially licensed systems, people will at least have the texts ready to compare. They span literal decades still, as I believe the first is nearly as old as D&D itself, but that would be far more manageable. I'm very tempted to believe that none of the existent licensed systems are actually the best at emulating the franchise, but you've gotta set boundaries or you'll never get to anywhere useful. You have the fact that the franchise is extremely well-documented on your side if you did wish to reskin another space RPG for it.
This is a good, quick breakdown of the most popular licensed ones. https://d20collective.com/blogs/divinations-from-the-collective/a-brief-history-of-star-trek-rpgs-and-which-one-you-should-play
From the cursory glance I have taken, the Last Unicorn Games version seems pretty appealing, does anyone have experience with how it plays in practice?
I ran it but don't have much memory of it, this was just over 20 years ago when the DS9 book came out. Prior to that we were playing a lot of WW Storyteller games and the LUG system was similar (in my recollection not same but similar) to that that we picked it up fast. Between the TNG, OS, and DS9 corebooks and sourcebooks the players had no problem picking out species and roles, we had a Cardassian, Naussican, Ferengi, Andorian, and 2 Humans.
I was running a pirates and mercs campaign in what was Cardassian space after the Dominion War. Unfortunately I wasn't experienced enough to keep it going more than a few sessions or provide hooks the PCs would bite on at the time. I'd love to give it another shot though. I filled a spiral notebook with setting info that I wish I still had.
I have no idea if this is the Last Unicorn game, but I played a Trek RPG for a few sessions with a sheet that looked like pic related.
It was a lot of fun, actually.
I played a "Rebellious" vulcan. He still displayed no emotions, of course, but he had different view as to what "logical" could mean.
For instance, most vulcans prefer the path of least danger, as it is logical to avoid risk. Meanwhile, my Vulcan would accept risk as long as the probability of success was greater than the probability of failure. He also had facial hair, as it was illogical to him to simply shave it off for the sake of tradition.
...Whoops, forgot the sheet, here it is
That's a fun idea for a character, providing a cultural alternative that isn't abandoning the basics of the race
That was my intention! I tried to think "what does a "rebellious vulcan" look like, without just going for the stereotype of rejecting emotionlessness?" And so I thought: He embraces Logic, but feels that the typical interpretation is too restrictive, so to a human he would still seem like a stuffy Vulcan, but to Vulcans, he would seem like a real rambunctious dude.
It's something I feel is missing from trek as a whole. Besides the dissidents, you'd never really get any alien with a differing philosophy from his group without being a complete rejection.
Romulan dissidents to be specific
Lower Decks had a vulcan who was ostracised then kicked off her ship because she was rebellious since she would use phrases like "this feels like" and "my instincts tell me".
Looks homemade because it doesn't have the branding and those curves are jagged but it is for Last Unicorn Games Star Trek.
I agree with other anon who says nice character concept.
>most vulcans prefer the path of least danger, as it is logical to avoid risk
Is that true? One of Spock's most famous lines is "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few". That's not a path of least danger, that's a path of greatest reward/risk quotient. Lower risk for a smaller divisor will make that quotient larger but a sufficiently high expected reward will swamp even a significant risk.
Speaking of Spock, I just watched Galileo 7 and it was pretty interesting how bad his decision-making was. He thought he was being logical but all he was actually doing was going with the first idea that came to his head, with no backup plan, and it got two men killed.
I thought there was going to be some reflection on that at the end but no it was just the usual "everyone laughs, Spock raises an eyebrow" TOS ending.
>TT
I ran a whole 12 Episode "Season" of a Trek game (each session being an episode) Using Savage Worlds.
It's a universal system that's got just enough crunch to make different actions matter, but not so much crunch as to bog down gameplay. The system is great at handling non-combat encounters and checks which made it ideal for a setting like Trek, and finally some people have made balanced rules for some Trek ships and races in Savage Worlds that made it a great fit.
I ran a campaign were the party was a Miranda Crew just after the Dominion war doing salvage missions on the fronteir. Episodic adventures ensued.
Howdy STG!
I have a little thought experiment for you!
Suppose Paramount approaches you and says "We want a Trek show made by fans. We are willing to give you two seasons of 26 episodes each, and each episode will be released weekly on Paramount+." No further seasons are guaranteed, BUT, IF enough viewers watch it, the studio is willing to renew on a season by season basis, to a maximum of 7 seasons.
What is your pitch?
Isn't that more or less what's up with Lower Decks?
Yeah but imagine if it was good instead
LD is good, demonstrates a genuine love of the source material, and broadly manages to be inclusive without getting obnoxious about it.
You don't have to hate things just because they're new and accessible.
Not that anon, but to be fair to them, After STD and PIC I saw the first trailer for LD and gave it a hard pass for like a year.
Then some of the clips came out showing genuinely meaningful references that weren't just memberberries, and scenes showing up that felt very trek, so Eventually watched it and fell in love with it. But I can understand Anon's initial assumption that it's bad, given what came before it, thankfully it is VERY clear that outside of the Pilot, Kurtzman basically had no influence on the show.
I don't think the problem for me was Kurtzman.
Or maybe he's the source of my problems, I dunno.
The problem I have with it is that it's simultaneously trying to parody and mock Trek while also wanting to be serious and an actual contender in the legacy of the franchise. And a lot of what it uses as parody undermine the franchise.
The funny thing is that if we didn't have Picard and STD to be EVEN WORSE and by comparison make Lower Decks look less bad, it wouldn't be notably worthwhile. Like why should I whine about the minor things that make no fricking sense in LD like the stupid Koala or the fact that they sleep in the hallways in a class of ship that could give each of them a luxury hotel suite, when I look at what STD did to literally EVERYTHING about canon, to the point that they had to banish them to the future and swear everyone to secrecy because it was so goddamn discontiguous with the established lore, or Picard more in line with schlock like The Boys than the hopeful vision of the future. Why would I get bent out of shape about Mariner being drunk on duty all the time and getting in fights and shit when we have the actual mutineer and literal Mary Sue on STD.
But yeah, with Picard and Discovery as things that exist, Lower Decks is tolerable, but the stupid shit that it does is still stupid. Don't get me wrong, they DO have good stuff in there, but I hate that they have nonsensical bullshit that should have seen them cashiered from a fricking pirate crew, never-mind a Federation Starship.
As for OP and his question? Moedephius 2d20 system works pretty well. I did a DS9 era game of the protagonist ship got sent thru the wormhole on a 5 year mission into the great unknown, TOS style.
I still think that most of LD's problems stem from the suits being utterly convinced that the only way for a cartoon that isn't specifically made for kids to succeed is to ape Rick and Morty.
>Moedephius 2d20
I second that although a trek savy halfway optimized engineer with access to the main deflector dish basically turns into an all powerful wizard if you don't set the right boundaries.
>halfway optimized engineer with access to the main deflector dish basically turns into an all powerful wizard if you don't set the right boundaries.
Well, that's basically Star Trek in a nutshell.
You say that like it's a bad thing. If bouncing a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish to reverse the polarity of the alien device and push it out of orbit is the wrong answer, I don't want to be wright!
That's the way we do things, lad.
>Why would I get bent out of shape about Mariner being drunk on duty all the time and getting in fights and shit
I find it weird how much character development Mariner got, she's obnoxious garbage in season 1, mildly tolerable in season 2, and a decent and interesting person by season 3. Season 4 Mariner wouldn't do the things Season 1 Mariner did, unfortunately the same can't be said of the other characters who have remained static.
It's almost like the writers had a plan or something.
The problem is that Mariner is a character that should have washed out of the Academy.
Starfleet has ALWAYS been the best and brightest of humanity, the shining exemplars above all others, and while they may make mistakes and may not be perfect, they aren't a bunch of psychopathic rick and morty fratboys.
We actually saw Mariner at the academy in the last episodes of the most recent season, she was very much one of the "best and the brightest"
The numerous examples of Star Trek officers in other shows that go against what you claim is proof that you're both wrong and haven't actually watched Star Trek. Sure the senior officers for the Federation flagship are the best and brightest, but there's still lower decks characters in other postings that frick up, sometimes frequently.
Are you moronic?
Remember when westly was applying to the Academy, and wunderkid the ultra-genius failed the first application test because the competition was JUST THAT CUTTHROAT?
Idiots like Mariner should never have made it in the first place.
Reginald Barclay.
But Reg is extremely intelligent, and I doubt the ultra progressive Starfleet would fail a man for having autism
The real one that casts doubt is Ro, or how Nog, for all his good traits, only really had half an education before going to the academy
How cute, you read Wesley's Memory Alpha page, now go actually watch the show.
>But Reg is extremely intelligent
Mariner isn't unintelligent, she just got extremely jaded with insubordination issues after graduating.
So from the episodes of TLD I saw, the issue isn't Mariner being intelligent, on the contrary she seems good at everything and disliked for being abrasive, which cut to the thing I disliked about the show as a whole. It really just felt like someone wanting to do Rick and Morty with a star trek coat of paint
I was never moronic enough to watch Rick and Morty in the first place, so my opinions of Lower Decks weren't influenced by baseless and irrelevant comparisons.
Boimler was the wide-eyed idealistic fresh out of the Academy ensign while Mariner was a jaded veteran with insubordination issues who was explicitly constantly on her last legs. It's just another take on Kim and Paris, except Mariner never got anyone killed or thrown in prison.
Given how doggedly you defend shit you'd probably love R&M
>except Mariner never got anyone killed or thrown in prison
I'm not willing to assume she's never gotten anyone killed and managed to get away with it, though I think we know she's gotten people thrown in prison. I know, not what you meant, but I choose to read it that way for humorous purposes. I mean she did trap that one guy on Ceti Alpha whatever.
Very first episode she drunkenly cuts Boimler's leg down to the bone with a Batleth including the Femoral artery. If that happened somewhere OTHER than inside of a starship, he'd have bled out in like a minute or two.
Twas but a flesh wound.
I don't know, later on the captain let a guy hunt one of her officers because he said it was okay, but clearly didn't realize what it meant given how he was freaking out to her. I guess it's different when it's about respecting an alien culture, and now Boimler has nerve damage to always remember the experience.
To be fair, the very first episode was the one, and only, episode that Alex Kurtzman definitely had a hand in.
Did you not see the flashback where she was basically like boimler, bright eyed and rigid, before too much space horror made her afraid of responsibility so she slacked off and stopped caring?
She was great in the academy and as an early ensign, she eventually changed as she got scared, which is a fear she overcomes over the course of the show.
When they did the live action crossover with SNEW it really underlined what an absurd character Mariner is. She was acting like a horse's ass while the Enterprise crew were trying to be serious.
Which is funny, because that was one of hte most grounded Mariner performances. Helped of course by the fact that most of what the cartoon character does is physically impossible for a human actress, which just further highlights the ludicrous impossibility of the character.
I don't hate her the same way that I hate actual Mary Sue from Discovery, but she was certainly grating for the first couple seasons.
Personally I like it. The only bad episodes I've seen are the ones that Kurtzman worked on, so the Pilot basically. But especially the first Holodeck episode that parodied most of the Trek films, the Season Finales, and especially Wej Duj are all top notch trek and clearly made by people who like trek.
Seriously, they Flipped TNGs "show the best Starfleet has to offer" and showed the "Worst" lowest rung of Starfleet... and they're still better people than humans today and still actually help others on the whole. If even the worst of starfleet is admirable, then I think that fits well.
The show definitely has its moments, and I find it the most enjoyable of the new material, even over a slightly more traditional Prodigy. Still I can understand why some people complain. No, I don't care about the tawdriness, Gene himself would have approved. Not even the violence. Again, probably Gene approved since they were vaporizing people down to skeletons and exploded a man's chest in TNG (albeit infamously and I'm glad they course corrected that). Mostly Mariner learning the same, or basically the same, lesson every season has gotten old, though she was less hyper competent at combat this season (for those who cry Mary Sue and let slip the dogs of war), but there's little things about the show. For instance Mariner obliterating the fourth wall by bringing up Xon in the Vindicta episode. You'd have to be really up on your Trek lore to know about the phased out Phase II character, although his name at least made it as far as a piece of set dressing nobody watching Wrath of Khan would even read. I suppose it's reconcilable if you imagine set dressing Xon had a stint on the Enterprise where he failed to live up to Spock's legacy and obviously not tenure, therefore being a blip in the historical record? I'm sure if you mention a vulcan serving on Kirk's Enterprise nobody is going to name you Xon.
>it's good because... the writers are better at digging up obscure lore from Memory Alpha!
If LD wasn't a cartoon I'm sure people wouldn't be on such a crusade to defend it
Look man, if you don't like it, it's fine, It's just clear that the people who make LD not only actually watched Trek (because their obscure references aren't just dropped in memberberries, the characters and contexts they're referenced in actually work, as opposed to STD doing something like "IT'S KIRK?!?!" and expecting everyone to flip out), but the LD staff seems to genuinely have an appreciation for Trek and what it represents.
It's fine if you find the pacing, or writing annoying, it's okay if you don't like the characters or animation, it's totally fine if you think it's bad. But at the very least, it's clear that McMahan's team still believes that the future is a better place, Still has the federation as a greater structure (courts work, they actually solve problems, even their lowest starfleet members are more moral than people today), and when asked about canon, they basically said you don't have to consider LD canon if you don't want to, but they tried to make it fit if you do (as opposed to STD which blatantly flew in the face of Canon regularly, and INSISTED it was true canon and definitelt fit).
Hate the show if you want, but all I'm saying is the people behind it actually like Trek, which cannot be said for STD or PIC, or said about Kurtzman's team in general.
>Look, Mike McMahan screenshots!
>giant, impassioned wall of text
Jesus Christ lmao.
No, it's always fun getting LD people riled up, because all one has to say is "it's not funny/good/Mariner is a bad character" and you flip the frick out (while simultaneously going "no u")
>it's always fun getting LD people riled up
Ah, so you're trolling. Seemed like it, but I wanted to give you the benefit of a doubt. At least you're honest about it.
You do nothing to hide your bitterness and hostility because someone dared to say LD was just a goofy cartoon.
>I really need for this to be the case because I have nothing else going on in my life right now that makes me happy
Since you already admitted you're trolling I know I shouldn't reply, but this was just so sad it screamed for comment.
Like a wind up toy you just repeat the same defense for LD over and over rofl
>you're just bitter!!!
>nothing makes you happy!!!
>those are giant walls of text
Holy crap it's an actual ADHD-addled zoomer
>it's good because... the writers are better at digging up obscure lore from Memory Alpha!
I get the sense you're not reading the posts since you're imagining people's arguments. Ironically in this case since that anon was arguing the same as you that Mariner's preternatural grasp of Trek backstory lore breaks the story. But anon said he still likes the show, for whatever that's worth. Seems like you have a classic case of not liking what other people like and not being able to handle it. That's cool, you're in good company on Ganker. We're all bitter buttholes here, especially the people who claim they aren't.
Also, this
>If LD wasn't a cartoon I'm sure people wouldn't be on such a crusade to defend it
They did a live action crossover with SNW. Never heard anyone saying it made much difference, so I think we can ignore that theory.
The theory holds up because this is Ganker and people latch on to cartoons (naturally, it's an anime site after all) especially if they have implied shipping between the mixed race MCs. See whatever is popular on Ganker at the moment.
The first half of the first season is spotty, to put it nicely, but once they start to land it's pretty good.
Someone could probably outline a 'core viewing' episode list for you that dodges the less-trek-more-stock-adult-comedy-cartoon episodes.
Oh! It's been a while, but I still have my notes for this concept!
If I were to make a Star Trek Series, it would center around a Danube Class Runabout (Still working on a Name, top contenders are Blue after the Blue River, Orange after the Orange River, or Hermes after the Greek Messenger god) on a Mission from Earth to the Federation Border, over the course of a year. On the way to the border, the small ship must pick up and drop off various dignitaries, politicians, officers, prisoners and guests along the way, allowing for continuity but variety in the story and cast, as well as the occasional anomaly or strange mystery episode.
The Show's cast would only have three main characters: The Commander, a Human in charge of the ship itself, a Medical Officer who can be any species, and an Engineer to help keep the ship running. Thanks to the small cast and rotating 4th/5th character slot, a lot of focus can be shown on personal character arcs, with a few recurring characters and plotlines throughout, while the constant travelling allows for new worlds and unique situations to episodically break up the overarching elements, so it can be enjoyed both in order or as individual episodes.
(Cont...)
The Human Commander has some unique hobby (I am debating primarily between Music Making with analog synthesizers or a fascination with An ancient human Holiday called "Halloween"). He is a competent leader, Charismatic and prefers to use wit and persuasion to solve situations, but falling back on trickery and misdirecrion to escape or avoid bad situations. This should fit well for his ship, which cannot survive one-on-one engagements with most full starships.
The (probably alien) medical officer will be the wife of the Commander, allowing for the exploration of Starfleet's allowance for Fraternization aboard ships, since it was touched on in TNG but then dropped in subsequent series... for the most part. Because of this, I believe there is a lot of room to explore the concept, especially over the course of a seties. She is quiet but very professional in her job, acting very much as level-headed, "wise character of few words".
Engineer (Human?) Would likely be very focused on Ship repair, probably a hobbyist type (Though personality for him is still very rough at this stage).
At the end of the first season, the ship reaches its last destination at the edge of Federation Space, and will face some large puzzle or conflict. For a second season, should it he granted one, the show would effectively be the same in reverse: A mission from the edge of the Federation to Earth, picking up and dropping off various people along the way, visiting all new planets and places this time, with the Season 2 finale ending on Earth where it all started. Future seasons would likely see a refit (better Warp core, new equipment), and being sent to a different Federation border.
>What is your pitch?
>Well you see it will be eight hours of me: a lowly engineer having hardcore pornagraphic sex with a Andorian Imperial Guard and a Romulan Centurion (both female) while stranded on space Whitsundays Islands, with it ending with me having a hoard of half Human half Andorian/Romulan childe…wait were you going? I didn’t even get to the bit about the Cardassian home wrecker that’s trying to steal me! Or the subplot about the horny Vulcan Ex!
They looked at your proposal, and decided That it was so close to Gene's original vision, that they went to fire Kurtzman immediately and give you his office
>that they went to fire Kurtzman immediately and give you his office
Based, I have a lot of ideas that will save the brand
>STD will be rendered non-canon and will be stricken from the record, to make up for her transgressions Michelle Yeoh will become one of my concubines
>the final episode of ST: ENT will be rendered non-canon, ENT Season five will be made
>Johnathan Frakes will be given a RPG-18 rocket launcher
>all gay characters will be made bisexual
>a eight episode mini series about Nausicaan pirates will be made
>Andorian fleshlights will be sold for $5 a piece
>No fat b***hes, all actors must remain in good physical health
I foresee booming profits
It will be fours long and it will be mandatory for all employees to listen to.
Anon this is one of the greatest business recovery proposals I've ever heard.
During my sleep I’ve come up with other ideas
>if JJ Abrams is found within a 500 meter radius of company property he will be raped at gunpoint. I will have the meanest sons of b***hes from Japan stationed at all studios ready to Nanking JJ at a moments notice if he spotted or captured, by the end of it even Fran Drescher will feel she got off lightly.
>Will Wheaton will be forcibly given steroids and testosterone, he will be given a strict workout regime that will require him to impregnate five black women a day and break 15 bucks every Sunday. Hopefully he will stop being a pussy.
>I’m bringing back the Suliban in a five part audiobook series with them fighting the Tholians
>I will be less strict on fan works, except for the c**ts that made such draconian rules necessary, frick those guys
>a Barclay series (four seasons and a movie)
Way too based to ever become real.
The hero we need, but Paramount would never let us have.
>Star Trek continues, Continue.
>Star Trek, New Voyages: Voyage anew
>Axanar, Get Axed (and give the fans back their money)
What happened with Axanar? I saw the original trailer that they made but never actually put any money in it since it seemed like it'd be immediately curbstomped by IP lawyers, and didn't pay attention to it after that.
The long and short is, Paramount/CBS basically never really minded that fan-films were made. Usually it was dedicated fans who made the productions out of love and assembled their own sets anyway, so they had no reason to interfere. Even when some trek Alumni like George Takei or Walter Koenig ended up in fan productions, CBS left them alone because, again, they were labors of love that helped grow the fanbase of Trek and didn't profit much if at all.
Then Axanar came along, and made two mistakes. We were all upset at STD, and STD deserves to be critisized... but AXANAR boldly claimed that They and they alone would make the REAL Star Trek, and make it the right way. First mistake: Publicly and immediately attempting to compete with mainline trek, rather than make a fan work based on trek.
But that wasn't their biggest mistake, their BIGGEST mistake was crowdfunding it and pocketing a lot of that money. Axanar launched a kickstarter campaign and raised nearly a million dollars for their Star Trek show and film... without paying any rights or royalties to the actual studio that owned Star Trek.
And so, pic related happened. Paramount/CBS could have easily shut down all fan projects and committed mass takedowns, but they had a surprisingly measured response to make sure that Axanar style competition/profiting off of the Trek IP never happened.
As a result, pretty much all the long running fan projects that ran with minimal funding/off of just fan love ended up ceasing production.
TL;DR:
Small group decided to start profiting off of, and directly competing with, Star trek without even paying royalties, and were shocked when the company sued them and restricted fan work.
>They and they alone would make the REAL Star Trek, and make it the right way
>crowdfunding it and pocketing a lot of that money.
Genuinely the dumbest fricking people in the Trek fandom, what did they expect
>Scam a bunch of morons into giving you money.
>You instead use the money for your own real estate projects instead of using it for the film you said you were going to make.
>Intentionally bait the rights holders into shutting you down.
>The same morons whom you scammed money from end up blaming the rights holders instead of you.
>You get away with everything you wanted scot free with no PR hit.
Genius move.
Exactly. Axanar took advantage of Trek Fans, stole their money, and then through their actions made the rights holders, who were content to just let fans do whatever, wake up and actually act like a corp somewhat, thus killing long running fan projects and stifling future projects.
I would almost never defend a megacorp, but in this rare case, they had every legal right to kill all fan works and never truly bothered until Axanar, and even then, their restrictions are leniant by industry standards.
fleshlights will be sold for $5 a piece
FFS anon, you've already got us selling your "Boob Tube" VR console at a loss, now you want us to release another sex toy that competes with the first one?
We could sell them in a combo deal for $10, both products compliment each other and should be used simultaneously, it is my sworn duty to never swindle the fans out of their hard earned money and with God, Allah, the IRS, Gene Roddenberry and L.Ron Hubbard as my sworn witnesses I will stick to it.
All that's missing is the hour long lecture on the enormity of ferengi penises
>enormity
Yes, from what I hear they are offensive and evil.
Obvious answer is just another show exploring post Nemesis canon but interacting more directly with it. So really an episodic trek show with the post Dominion War story looming in the background. Also no Picard references.
>The problem I have with it is that it's simultaneously trying to parody and mock Trek while also wanting to be serious and an actual contender in the legacy of the franchise. And a lot of what it uses as parody undermine the franchise.
to be fair they didnt choose this burden, it only came from all the other live action shows around it deciding to be shit, so now it has to be both the real show and parody
>The funny thing is that if we didn't have Picard and STD to be EVEN WORSE and by comparison make Lower Decks look less bad, it wouldn't be notably worthwhile.
loads of people regularly put LD above VOY and ENT, I think people forget just how polarising Star Trek becomes once you pass DS9
wasnt season 1 basically still TOS? As in actually?
Rutherford is a static character but I think Boimler has grown, and Tendi is basically just starting her arc now that Mariner finishing hers is going to free up space for someone else to get development
>loads of people regularly put LD above VOY and ENT, I think people forget just how polarising Star Trek becomes once you pass DS9
I mean, so do I, but that's because Voyager has a 3 person crew and ignores all the rest, and the writing was fricking schizophrenic. I'll never forget or forgive the fricking Tuvix situation, or how it was embraced by the fanbase because they have protagonist centric morality and can't tell the difference between heroic self-sacrifice (Spock) and murdering someone to harvest him for parts (Tuvix). The irony of course is that they had the exact same scenario happen with the Vidiians, but this time took the opposite logical stance because the only consistent logic of Voyager is "frick strangers, I got mine". Like I said, it's schizophrenic.
Enterprise was actually good for the last 2 seasons of it, it just started off rocky, and left a sour taste in the mouth that spoiled the fandom on it and ruined the goodwill it had built by the fricking disastrous final episode.
>that's because Voyager has a 3 person crew and ignores all the rest
not that I disagree, but how does TOS get away with this and yet VOY and DIS get shit on for it? Is it just "the difference is the writing was good."
Fully agreed. In some seasons it feels like Boimler is more of the focus than Mariner actually. Shame about Rutherford though
I kind of agree with this anon too, I definitely see people thinking that Mariner's growth has lasted too long, Trekculture basically said as much during his S4 reviews. I dont agree, but I get it. Also I do think the cartoon tone can lose people if you were never an animation watcher and basically LD is your only one.
higher beings would probably see slavery as fine since they would see regular people would be seen as beneath them anyways
You would be flayed alive. The smartest thing the Kurtzman era did was tie the Kelvin Timeline to the original through canon because if they didnt Im certain we'd be 15 years into a rebooted universe now
TOS got away with it by being designed around it from the start, with the Kirk/Spock/Bones trinity being integral to the show's moral dialogues. Spock provides the logical viewpoint, Bones provides the emotional humanitarian viewpoint, Kirk balances the two and/or finds a third option. It's a simple concept that works.
It also helps that Scotty was great and the rest, while token flat characters, existed in a time where token flat characters on network TV were important. From an acting standpoint, Uhura was irrelevant and Nichols wanted to leave, but from a political standpoint simply seeing her on the bridge was important enough for MLK Jr. himself to convince her to stay. We have at least theory progressed to the point where that kind of tokenism is no longer needed, hence more fleshed out characters like La Forge and Sisko.
Meanwhile with Voyager and STD it's less an intentional writing choice and more "we fricked up so badly that these are the only three interesting characters." When Voyager actually let Beltran and Wang act roughly once a season then Chakotay and Kim were great, but outside of that they were crap because the writing sucked.
They really screwed Ethan Phillips out of his role.
The few episodes where they focused on Neelix in a serious light (like exploring his past as a guilt-ridden deserter, his crisis of faith, his trauma), Phillips absolutely nailed it knocked it out of the park.
And then an episode later the directors/writers have him being "haha funny man, made the cheese that make the ship Sick XDDD".
>not that I disagree, but how does TOS get away with this and yet VOY and DIS get shit on for it? Is it just "the difference is the writing was good."
Part of it was that, and even though TOS had some REALLY bad writing in places, it was also fantastic in places. For all that people meme about the deaths of redshirts, I'm pretty sure that Kirk and Spock showed more emotion and grief over some random nameless ensign after he got killed by the slime monsters of Praxigos IV than anyone on Voyager showed when Kim got killed and was replaced by his dimensional clone.
Part of it also was that the bar had been raised. TOS we can forgive for a lot of the early weirdness and sometimes flat writing, but we lambast Voyager for similar problems, because TNG and DS9 had set the standard THAT MUCH HIGHER. We knew what it looked like to have a show with a truly ensemble crew who were all unique characters with actual motivations and lives. The fricking voiceless barfly in DS9 who never spoke a single word in the entire 7 seasons of the show got more development, backstory, and care than most of the Voyager bridge crew. Which is to say nothing of the fricking Discovery bridge crew where we needed Pike to come in and have them sound off by name because the show had been that lazy and we didn't even know who 90% of them were, and then it didn't matter anyway because it was always just The-Universe-Revolves-Around-Burnham show anyway.
And that's not even talking about the fact that DS9 actually went and gave us character arcs for the villains. Love em or hate em, you can't deny that Damar, Dukat, Weyoun, and even Kai Wynn got more love and attention to their personal storylines than most of the bridge crews on STD or VOY.
This, 100%. TOS, beautiful as it was, was first. It laid the foundation and got to make mistakes. Heck, S1 of TNG was buy and large... not great, but it just kept improving, and it was following TOS/TAS. So then, by DS9, Trek peaked, it had amazing writing, and the shows were consistantly hitting it out of the ballpark until Voyager, and even then, lest we forget, Voyager DOES have good episodes, it's just terribly inconsistant in tone and writing quality. By the time of ENT, the studio saw Trek as an asset to be milked and gave the staff essentially no time to rest before demanding a prequel, and... well we all saw how that went.
TOS (and its movies) boldly went first, TNG and DS9 explored and showed us the beauty of what Star Trek could really be, VOY tried its best to keep Trek alive, and ENT was sacrificed to a studio who killed their golden goose in search of profit.
Now, we enter a new age of trek. The cancellation of STD and the apology tour that was the final season of PIC indicate that, perhaps, the darkest days of nutrek are over... but time will tell if we will ever reach the height of TNG/DS9 again.
the last season doesnt fill me with confidence, quite the opposite because it shows the people most critical of Trek were really just mad they didnt get to do interviews and get screeners with the new producers.
>I definitely see people thinking that Mariner's growth has lasted too long
I'm not sure how I feel about it, to be honest. Boimler, for instance, has had a far more straight forward period of growth, though they did drop the Bold Boimler thing rather suddenly. Felt weird he didn't bring it up once this season.
But Mariner? We keep seeing her on a path to learning lessons, but instead of largely seeing her apply those lessons. Instead of really seeing periods of positive growth she's like a bullshit onion and each life lesson peels off another layer revealing more bullshit. Some of it is surprisingly similar bullshit. Her issues with her mother, with trusting people in general, and this season she was surprisingly linked back to a TNG character.
Actually I'll admit this isn't actually true, we do see periods of relatively positive growth from her, though her getting her act largely together in season 3 was the result of worrying Ransom was going to kick her to Starbase 80. And of course that culminates in her NOT shit talking the ship and actually praising her mother. Also I've got to say, I did like her spending time with Ma'ah. T'lyn gets all the fan adulation but Ma'ah is a pretty baller dude. Plus he seems to have straight out torn out a traitor's throat with his teeth, so he's got that going for him too.
I agree Ma'ah is super underrated. I'm happy that he's coming back, even if the way the three ships that did wej duj bumping into each other like this pushes coincidence.
I think Bold Boimler's next step was suddenly being promoted and being overwhelmed again. The promotion in general is a bit of a growth problem because right as the characters were getting stable, that got thrown in and messed them up again
Season 4 finale was satisfying imo. Season 3 finale was kind of bad. I wish Mariner were more effective through season 2 and 3, it's great when she's specifically ineffective (like when she tries to kick Badgey and it does nothing) but they often forget that she's supposed to be a Star Fleet veteran and is supposed to know shit.
After this, though, it will be very disappointing if S5 Mariner continues to be dangerous and self-sabotaging. That's played out, it was a good arc, now it's over and the story needs to go somewhere else.
I liked the S3 finale way more than S4 imo. It felt like it tied to actual things during the season and not just random gags. Twin twains in the finale was fun, but that's not the kind of thing you expect to get paid off by a season finale
Different anon, but the S3 final bugged me because it did the awful "Any ship can be anywhere instantly." trope that the newer live action series love. S2 is still the pinnacle.
>S2 is still the pinnacle.
well of course. I-Excretus to Grounded might be the best consecutive set of episodes in modern Star Trek
>it did the awful "Any ship can be anywhere instantly." trope that the newer live action series love.
fair enough. I've seen people explain that the California ships were already in transit to be decommissioned to explain away that but then add Mariner being so close and it gets silly
Fair enough mate. I had a bit of a tism over all the Cal-class ships just happening to be in range to show up at the same time (but no other Star Fleet ships being within range to help once Mariner supposedly got the word out and was supposedly believed), it should have at least been limited to the ones with captains we've already met, and it should have been established early on that they were doing some kind of busy-work in the same general area, then it would be a goofy Trek-style coincidence and not just a big stupid asspull. Plus some other things, but it also had good parts, LD is just good.
>Voyager has a 3 person crew
Okay, I waive shifgrethor, which three? Seven, The Doctor and Janeway? I've seen less than half of it (scattered over 6 seasons) but it seems like the tier-2 characters all get a lot of screentime, certainly more than anyone in the b-list of TOS. I'm not even sure if I'm right about tier-1.
I was confused by the statement too.
I agree with your response to
Boimler and Mariner have inverse growth: She starts with experience but lacks discipline and maturity, Whereas Boimler starts overly rigid but inexperienced.
As the show goes on, she learns to actually straighten out and stop coasting, while Boimler gains more experience and confidence, both characters ending up better for it as the series continues.
>wasnt season 1 basically still TOS? As in actually?
Yeah it was mostly scripts from the TOS continuation show that never happened. The Motion Picture was also one of these scripts.
>wasnt season 1 basically still TOS? As in actually?
No, even if
were true and TNG were mostly rewritten Phase II scripts Phase II was not TOS. If you can get through all the crap in ST TMP you can see how Phase II would have been different to TOS.
TNG episode 2 The Naked Now as based on the same premise as TOS The Naked Time but it was a development by other writers of a new script by Roddenberry
Ep 6 was based off an idea in a novel that was written After the Wrath of Khan so long after Phase II was dead and buried.
Episode 20 was based on an unproduced TNG script.
I went through two wikis looking at all 26 episodes and those three are the only references to pre-existing work I found. There were a couple of tv critics saying certain TNG episodes copied a TOS story, but the two copied episodes being Arena and A Piece of the Action and those are TOS not Phase II.
I didn't find one mention of Phase II stories, let alone Phase II scripts being copied. You got any texts to back up your claim that Phase II episodes were re-used for TNG?
>TNG Episode 20 is based on an unused TNG script
What did he mean by this?
It means Fontana and Wright wrote a script for the episode Once a Klingon.
The Once a Klingon script wasn't used to to film an episode because Bob Justman said too expensive.
Hurley used it write episode 20, Heart of Glory. He kept enough of it that the other two received writing credit.
Thank you for the details. Because the claim was limited I didn't look at anything after the first 26 episodes (counting pilot as two eps) but the very next one is the The Child, and there's the Phase II mention on the wiki. You, sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.
>You got any texts to back up your claim that Phase II episodes were re-used for TNG?
Source: Personal communication
Not him and he's wrong about season 1 being "mostly" Phase 2, but the Decker/Ilia relationship was reused for Riker and Troi, the TNG episode "The Child" was rewritten from the Phase 2 episode of the same name, and "Devil's Due" was rewritten from a Phase 2 episode of unknown name. "Devil's Due" was rewritten too much for the original writer/s to receive credit, but "The Child" still credits Jaron Summers & Jon Povill, who wrote the original script that Maurice Hurley tweaked to fit with the TNG cast. So yes that anon was incorrect and the effect of Phase II on TNG is overstated, but there were two episodes later on.
focus is the crew of the Enterprise C
that's all
Two seasons guaranteed.
and you would watch them
I miss Dukat so much like you wouldn't even believe
My favorite is the current 2d20 one from Modiphius.
The rule system looks pretty awful for it at first glance, can you try to convince me how it would play well? I'm curious because if it really is a good system I'm open to running it
Excited.
>Irish Reunification in 2024 is the catalyst that kick started WWIII
>the Irish Supreme Council escaped judgement for their crimes during the war, escaping into space where they founded their own utopian drunken sheep shagging society, the Bringloidi
Deepest motherfrickin' lore right here, gents.
I think the kid is green because reasons
Man it really is wild how little we see of the other founding species in the Next Gen era, we really only get Tuvok
The differences in antenna placement never really bothered me since it always struck me as something that could plausibly just be a form of racial variation within the species. Those cheekbones and eyebrow spikes on the modern ones, on the other hand...
Thank frick LD basically just goes "yeah, they're blue and have antennas" rather than the facial disfigurements seen in Disco and SNW
To be fair the style is such cheapo shit it's impossible to gauge facial details
Is it a hot take to be fine with all of these? Except the TNG one frick you
>Forgot something?
No, I've got all of the canon versions, thanks.
I'm not in the least bit kidding when I say that if you play Lasers & Feelings without irony or intentional comedy that it does Star Trek better than any of the many systems specifically made for it.
How so?
So since the LUG Voyager supplement was cancelled, anyone know of good homebrew supplements that can fill in the blanks?
I'm starting another watchthrough of all of TNG.
Man is the Naked Now an episode. It feels like I'm watching a completely different show than later seasons.
Juat finished S1E4: Code of Honor again. Wow was it... different than I remember. This felt like a TOS episode, from the pacing, to the plot/antagonist, to their... thoughts on Women.
And yet... just finished S1E5, The Last Outpost, and this one FEELS very TNG! The writing for the Ferengi feels a bit TOS, but the way they solve the central conflict, answer the Guardian, and the way they all interact... feels more like what we see in later seasons.
So I remember reading! Gene chafing under other directors (or annoying others), his eventual health and passing leading to more cohesive stories... but what's this about S7? It HAS been a while but for some reason my brain groups 3-7 together as feeling about the same.
I suppose I'll find out soon but remind me? I HAVE seen all of TNG a few times but my last start-to-finish binge was about 4-5 years ago.
>but what's this about S7?
DS9 starting up late season 6 plus Generations in pre-production plus Voyager in pre-production meant TNG was basically running on the C-team creatively for season 7, and it shows.
I mean, on one hand we got some bangers like Pegasus and Parallels.
But this is also when Bev got to ghost fricking.
So I see no downsides here. </s>
Huh, I'll have to take a look. Maybe I'm just biased because when I Hear S7 I think All Good Things, but I'll keep my eyes peeled for creative inconsistancies. Makes sense though.
Just finished S1E6, Where no one has gone before. It's the Wesley episode, yet I can SEE TNG in this one. I always do remember it better than, say, Code of honor, and I now remember why. Plus lots of great visual effects for the time period in this one.
S1E7 Lonely Among Us finished. A good investigation episode! Interesting to see the makeup artists getting creative with the two delegate species, something I actually appreciate. Also fascinating how it actually explored the issue of regulation vs safety when it comes to posessed a compromised captain in Starfleet. The premise would have made a great tabletop session...
TNG S1E8 Justice
...Gene. This episode is just Gene Roddenberry being Gene Roddenberry.
TNG S1E9, the Battle
I am pleasantly surprised at this one. My mind had always kind of dismissed Ferengi episodes in TNG, but this one was actually great. The Ferengi obsessed with revenge eventually removed by his officers for an unprofitable venture, the use of mind control in a way that was well built up through the whole episode, and of course the underlying suspense and mystery before the reveal of Bok's motives. It was a fun time!
TNG S1E10, Hide and Q
I like this one for a few reasons, but it actually brings to mind S1E4 of TOS, "Where no man has gone before," and it feels like... growth. Whereas in TOS a starfleet officer was corrupted by power and goes mad, in this one a starfleet officer STARTS to be corrupted by power... but eventually rejects it with help, and returns to normalcy. Like, you see in both cases mankind not ready for absolute power, but in the first, Kirk had to, with help, terminate the corrupted individual, whereas in the second case, Riker was able to be convinced to give up the power without violence.
It feels like Humanity measurable evolved over the 100 years. They're still not ready, but they handled it better.
TNG S1E11 Haven
For the first ever Lwaxana Troi episode, it wasn't as bad as I remember it. That said... it was a little... weird. From Troi being oddly dismissive of Riker's feelings to everyone aboard seeming to just accept this arranged marriage. Sure they comment on it but otherwise Troi just kinda... goes along with it? Feels more TNG than TOS but still has that weird Roddenberry touch.
Also, I feel bad tor Majel Barrett for getting stuck with Lwaxana. Sure she gets the Computer and earlier Chapel and Number One, but still...
Gene told her flat-out that Lwaxana was the perfect role for her and that she wouldn't even have to act, lol, it was definitely meant as a burn. But I also think she had a lot of fun with it.
Oh it looked like she was having fun, and just because she annoys me as a character doesn't mean it wasn't a blast on set, I just feel bad for her because I'm sure she got a lot of hate for it.
The hate was from a minority, if she was actually hated that badly then they never would've brought her back so much. At the very least, she was loved by the writing and production staff, and she spent more time around them than around the more hardcore fans.
I've known people who say "These are the worst episodes of Star Trek!" and then laugh about it. They still love her, they just won't admit it.
>Picard S3 is the worst series of TNG
>Has no Lwaxana episode
Really makes you think.
Season 1, 2, 3-6, and 7, might as well be four different shows for the most part, with how much behind the scenes shuffling there was going on.
I still can’t believe Data fricked in the third episode
Prime Directive or no balls
Could use some insight
I'm running a trek style game this saturday and the party have found themselves on a side mission to score some benamite crystals. They recently encountered a woman from one of the player's homeworlds where up until recently slavery was the law of the land, though her and those who wouldn't give up slaving were given a chance to accept exile, which her husband did while he was alive.
The party has fought these kinds of people off and on during the main campaign, and jumped directly to murder here (granted, they were still demonstrably being dick-ass slavers) I was thinking of there being an ancient race not detectable through standard life signs who might subdue both groups and subject them to your typical 'courtroom' scenario since they (the party) have no jurisdiction here.
My question is, should I have the aliens be a more malignant variety, or have them be more oblivious to the evils of slavery since it has been so long since any of them have experienced suffering?
Oblivious, because it lends itself GREATLY to the kinds of morality play Trek is all about.
If they're malicious, they MAY argue it's fine, but if they're oblivious, it opens the door not only to learning, BUT also to the characters being able to explore and explain WHY Slavery is bad.
Why do they have to be malignant? The Organians were benevolent. I don't know their stance on slavery but I wouldn't be surprised if they considered it a kind of suffering and they evolved to avoid suffering.
But your benevolent aliens might think that slavery is fine if they slaves get food, rest, etc, and their bodies aren't physically or mentally abused. They might think it is a form of working for a greater good and admire the slave owner taking on the responsibility of caring for others. They might even think slavery is a very good thing and enforce slavery as an expedient means of getting people to work for a common cause. Just because you and I might find it abhorrent does not mean that aliens, even well-meaning aliens, have to be of the same opinion.
Going back to the original question, FASA Trek was and still is the best of the lot. It might be dated rules wise, but the fluff more than makes up for it.
It wasn't hard for FASA to be the best of the lot when the lot comprised two systems.
You and I both can fanboy over John M Ford and his Klingon vision which did more for Klingons than the whole of TOS and TAS and the movies combined--with all due respect to Lloyd and Colicos and Ansara and Campbell but they had limited material to work with--and other coo things like that but if it's just the FASA fluff which is so good and the rules so dated, which they are and not in a way that makes it seem classic but in a way that makes it seem clunky, why are you advocating for FASA instead of saying, "Use an actually good system but take the FASA fluff"?
The two best things from FASA's system were its integration with the Starship Tactical Combat Game and the character creation rules which had a touch of Traveller's career progression.
It's not that great a character creation process--pre-academy, academy, branch, department head and command schools, cadet cruise, tours of duty pre-campaign--that it's a draw card.
The combat game was a 2D naval warfare game that wasn't very balanced and took ages to play and you pretty much had to stack the odds in the party's favour or have their ship blow up or pull the opposing force our for some reason. It's not like you're just going to throw it into a session. It would take the whole session to do even a small combat and that's if the players and GM were even interested in playing a board game during a rpg.
Good game but more a nostalgia trip. While ST "canon" has gone down the toilet over the last few years, well couple of decades since VOY was bad, and ENT was basically a giant retcon joke that was the equivalent of power creep in TCG by trying to make Archer and NX-01 seem better than Kirk/Picard and NCC-1701/NCC-1701-D and PIC and DIS are jokes, the divergence between FASA and TNG/DS9 are hard to get over, even with the TNG source book existing. I couldn't recommend it over the current Star Trek Adventures rpg
All joking aside, if I had control of Star Trek I would just do a hard reset. Kirk, Spock, McCoy on the Enterprise going to strange new worlds and meeting new civilizations. New stories and new writers with no preconceived notions of what Star Trek stories need to be and it wouldn't have 60 years of canon debates and baggage hanging on it.
..scared?
>New stories and new writers with no preconceived notions of what Star Trek stories need to be and it wouldn't have 60 years of canon debates and baggage hanging on it.
...Then why call it Star Trek? At that point just pull an Orville and make your own.
One of the big issues we have with STD is that it followed your logic almost verbatim, "New stories and new writers with no preconceived notions of what Star Trek stories need to be" and ignoring 60 years of canon.
nta but that's the opposite of what STD did. They took the normie merch ThinkGeek version of TOS and made a show in that era. "New stories without being tied down with baggage" was TNG.
Okay, I'll concede that anon had better intentions, but that's kinda what I mean:
The studio took the Recognizability of Star Trek, the ThinkGeek version as it were... and then just made a whole new show that followed no "preconceived notions of what Star Trek stories need to be". Basically, they could have made a half-decent action sci-fi show, but instead they insisted on calling it Star Trek for recognizability.
So at that point? Just make a new show.
starfleet needs to bring back green captain's uniforms
I personally think there needs to be 6 uniform colors
>Command Green
>Tactical Red
>Sciences Blue
>Medical White
>Engineering Gold
>Operations Gray
Command Green, Security Red, Science Purple, Medbay White/Blue, Engineering Yellow, Assistant Grey.
Normal space adventures on a normal ship
Set during the TOS movie era
Everyone wears those red uniforms and it has a semi 80s aesthetic
Why hasn't this happened
Everyone loves the TOS movies and the 24th century is played out
If I had creative control of Star Trek I'd focus on a non-Federation crew and ship. Maybe something with the so-called "First Federation".
Hey that's a neat Idea! LD's Wej Duj gave us a glimpse of stories on Vulcan and Klingon vessels, and it was one of the best episodes of that show, so a whole miniseries or even series set on other ships in Trek could be cool!
I mean, STO has plenty of non-federation players, so the interest is there.
Alright, where are you on the Iceberg, anons?
>Sex Trek
Love Boat: The Next Generation
Holy shit, I actually own a copy of the TNG XXX parody.
where's the TNG Stolen Jungle Gym or the Babylon 5 Script Theft Controversy
I want to see the TOS era episodes about the rest of the crew
So I've got notes for a loosely Voyager-like space opera game, run in Genesys and using some of the SWRPG content, about a shuttle that gets launched halfway across the galaxy in an FTL accident.
As their shuttle won't be self-sufficient, they'll be forced to stop on planets or space stations to restock, getting into trouble along the way.
I definitely want to lean for more of a Trek vibe. What would you say is essential to getting that feeling?
they have to have some bureaucracy to struggle with in terms of what they're allowed to do versus not allowed to do, in terms of getting home more conveniently.
Morality plays each session. Have them continously run into cultures or dilemmas that make them really have to think through or even explain morals they have as if to someone who doesn't understand them. Reward them heavily when they don't rely on violence and instead rely on cleverness.
Just saying flat-out that Earth is a lot better, we didn't crash the biosphere, we haven't gone to war for a long time, kids don't die of hunger, that's a huge part of it even if Earth is never pictured in the game. The PCs come from an ideal advanced society, where moral and technological advancement are often described in the same terms, and that's their frame of reference when responding to the shit that they see when visiting alien species. "Oh, yea, we used to do that on Earth once didn't we?" "Yea, it was called boxing, it was weird".
My pitch to
would be a Voyager-like show except that it's three full starships and they're sent to another galaxy (the one with the tinsel snail wizards and the 100-armed centipede people). Early episodes would focus on the first ship, so that the audience doesn't get early character fatigue, but by having more than 1 ship you allow Star Fleet to be a real character in the story. The heart of my pitch is "Make Star Fleet look powerful". 1 ship is an adventurer, 2 ships is an expedition, 3 ships is an armada.
Not that you need multiple ships to make it feel like Star Trek, Voyager is literally Star Trek and people love it, but if I were writing for Paramount I would write Voyager++.
the FASA one if you want a regular rpg
the modiphius one if you're a bunch of filthy storygamers
Remember, Miles O'Brien eventually gets the true recognition he deserved.
Forgot to mention, Miles O'Brien is on one of the Star Fleet ships that gets kidnapped to another galaxy, and the series takes place before the start of PIC season 1, and they won't get back until well after the events of PIC season 3, that way Miles can take a pass on all of that shit. He deserves it.
Star Trek Acid Party is a Canon S2 Episode.
wait, are there two Star Trek generals?