People who shit on JRPGs for their writing are hilarious since WRPG devs thought that JRPG writing was superior. Planescape Torment credited FF7 for the inspiration.
All JRPGs, even the worst ones, have great characters, world building, and a overall theme.
I never understood the WRPG hatred of them. >it doesn't have muh multiple choices
Those choices literally do not matter all and incentivize the good choices.
Yeah, if you wanna see how trash WRPG writing used to be, I suggest checking some of the GoldBox AD&D games. Most of it is just imagery/scenery since the graphic were so bad. Barely any real characters.
The hero is always some kind of an Arthur knock off, which was already a Jesus knock off but with swords and knighthood. If there is a wise wizard or sorceror, it is ripping off Merlin, Rogues, Robin hood, female knights, joan of arc, cleric are always pure, untouched holy people. The troupes themselves aren't really an issue, its how they played it off. They always plays it off straight. JRPGs too have this issue, even in FFs, it was until FFV where they start playing around with the concept of adding "fun" into the characters. Even Sakaguchi himself credits Kitase for introducing it.
>The hero is always some kind of an Arthur knock off, which was already a Jesus knock off but with swords and knighthood. If there is a wise wizard or sorceror, it is ripping off Merlin, Rogues, Robin hood, female knights, joan of arc, cleric are always pure, untouched holy people.
I like what you referenced. good post
ME1 was the closest one to JRPGs, because you spent half of the game traveling around empty worlds with some having "zone bosses" in them (thresher maws), while the other half is grinding materials and research points to level up your gear,. Oh and there's also some roleplay.
>All JRPGs, even the worst ones, have great characters, world building, and a overall theme.
Wrong. The vast majority of JRPGs are shovelware like pic rel. The one's with good worldbuilding/interesting characters are few and far between.
Honestly, the only thing going for most of these titles is that maybe the cover girl looks hot, but gameplay wise? Slop.
It was good inspiration but most JRPGs including 7 are not well written. Better than the earliest WRPG but nothing compared to something like Planescape. Be honest it annoys me they were inspired by a shitty cast like FF7 instead of a good game.
FF7 had a great story. You played as ecoterrorist anti-heroes who acknowledged their hypocrisy and selfish motivations in order to unite with your old enemies to save a dying planet.
ME1 was the closest one to JRPGs, because you spent half of the game traveling around empty worlds with some having "zone bosses" in them (thresher maws), while the other half is grinding materials and research points to level up your gear,. Oh and there's also some roleplay.
>All JRPGs, even the worst ones, have great characters, world building, and a overall theme.
Wrong. The vast majority of JRPGs are shovelware like pic rel. The one's with good worldbuilding/interesting characters are few and far between.
Honestly, the only thing going for most of these titles is that maybe the cover girl looks hot, but gameplay wise? Slop.
Under the basis of them not ripping their settings from tabletop games, JRPG worldbuilding is superior. They try to make unique worlds and mechanics instead of doing a 1:1 copy of a setting or ruleset.
Most JRPGs are ripping off of Dragon Quest, which is ripping of of D&D, which in turn is ripping off of LotR, which took a lot of inspiration from European folklore.
All of those are cool. People think that WRPG combat is better because of the "freedom" you have with builds, but you are fricked if you don't choose the very few viable specialized ones strictly. All it amounts to is dumping into fully dumping points into STR, INT, or DEX/AGI. Again, illusion of choice and depth.
Don't try an act like JRPGs don't impose the same level of illusory freedom that western RPGs do. Besides, build complexity isn't the end-all be-all of RPGs. That post of mine was more about pointing out how tedious playing JRPGs is more than western ones. The first couple of hours of something like FFX, where the game bombards you with cutscenes, talking, and tutorials, is far more mind-numbing than the first two hours of New Vegas.
All characters are cardboard cutouts. What you do with them is what matters. In BioWare's case, they forgot that people prefer likeable characters with virtues and faults.
>tropey
I hate you and anybody who parrots this word.
People who think tropes and inspiration are bad are basically picrel.
The situation around JRPGs is kind of hilarious, because back then the JRPG devs hated the moniker, they felt like they were being ostracized. And now this moniker morphed into something that people have vague idea of and firmly believe it's something concrete, and overtime started putting on pedestal as a sort of complete reversal. So now we are in a situation where everyone has a different idea of what a JRPG is, like for some reason Final Fantasy 7 Remake is a JRPG, but Dark Souls isn't, but Final Fantasy 16 is, but Yakuza (pre LAD even) aren't, but Secret of Mana is, but Nier Automata isn't. And why, I have no fricking idea.
It’s pretty simple, JRPG/WRPG were the Japanese and Western variants of the same kind of RPG concept.
Dark Souls is not a JRPG at all - it’s closer to a WRPG (due to the blank slate character), but isn’t on of those either, as both JRPGs and WRPGs should have a party system.
I think you just removed every WRPG from existence with this. Morrowind isn't a WRPG, Deus Ex isn't a WRPG, VTM isn't a WRPG.
I mean you put an actual definition to it, something it is sorely lacking, but I think it's a dumb one.
>People who shit on JRPGs for their writing are hilarious since WRPG devs thought that JRPG writing was superior. Planescape Torment credited FF7 for the inspiration.
i've never shit on either genre because they both have highlights but pst crediting ff7 doesn't cheapen it in any way. almost all creation in human history is derivative to some degree; it's hard not to be inspired by other cool shit that's out there. and ff7 was a really great game with some really cool storytelling, although the english tl left a lot to be desired.
Some Western writers being inspired by the best of the best from JRPGs does not mean that they're all of similar quality, anon.
Lots of japs are inspired by Western games too, but they only care about the best ones (in their opinion, which doesn't always line up with Western opinions). Kojima is a Westaboo and would let a white soldier frick his wife
All characters are cardboard cutouts. What you do with them is what matters. In BioWare's case, they forgot that people prefer likeable characters with virtues and faults.
>tropey
I hate you and anybody who parrots this word.
>All characters are cardboard cutouts
Stories are also nothing but a bunch of cliches for the most part, but it all comes back to execution. If the execution is done well then you can walk away with enjoyable characters and story, but the obsession with trying to subvert some cliches is leading to very flawed, in a bad way, characters and stories.
Everything is tropey. Anime and JRPGs are tropey in ways that are appealing to people who don't suck. Enjoy your cop drama or whatever you dumbfricks watch.
What a complete non-post. Most of the tropes you see in Anime/Manga came from Anime/Manga to begin with. So something western using those specific tropes is indeed just like my japanese animes.
Westerners were writing epics while Asians were still throwing sand at each other. Read about what the Greece though of the Asians, in their few encounters. Or Marco Polo, for that matter. Tribal warlords, at best, while Westerners were already building empires and advanced tech. (arabs too)
Yeah, if you wanna see how trash WRPG writing used to be, I suggest checking some of the GoldBox AD&D games. Most of it is just imagery/scenery since the graphic were so bad. Barely any real characters.
This is true, the commercial popularity of jrpg storytelling prompted a lot of late 90s wrpgs to focus more on cinematic character focused narratives.
But the gay in the op is clearly a partisan dumbass, and probably mostly only consumes anime, and since his only frame of reference is anime, he sees anime everywhere.
This isn't an interesting example since those goldbox games weren't interested in narrative, they're just dungeon crawlers.
>Most of it is just imagery/scenery since the graphic were so bad. Barely any real characters.
why is this a bad thing? plenty of JRPGs were the same, with stuff like Chrono Trigger standing out as the exception.
Why the frick are you bringing up graphics if you're trying to criticize writing? Can you keep simple thoughts straight in your head? Also >game from 1986 looks dated
"oh no"
[...]
The hero is always some kind of an Arthur knock off, which was already a Jesus knock off but with swords and knighthood. If there is a wise wizard or sorceror, it is ripping off Merlin, Rogues, Robin hood, female knights, joan of arc, cleric are always pure, untouched holy people. The troupes themselves aren't really an issue, its how they played it off. They always plays it off straight. JRPGs too have this issue, even in FFs, it was until FFV where they start playing around with the concept of adding "fun" into the characters. Even Sakaguchi himself credits Kitase for introducing it.
Irony is bad. Sincerity is good. "Tropes" should never be subverted, they should be played completely straight.
Mass Effect is inspired by old timey space shows like Star Trek and Babylon 5. Beyond one "quirky little sister" archetype, which is not exclusively an anime trope I might add, there is nothing "anime" about the characters.
it's not exactly 'jrpg' to make your characters actual characters with personality traits and backstories. that's just a story. that's what a story is. that wrpgs were characterized for a long time as 'having cardboard cutout characters' is part of why they never took off compared to jrpgs at the time, not a facet of the genre its developers should be proud of.
I'll go further and say that Mass Effect was the west's first major exposure to dating sim elements. You should have SEEN the 'fandom' back in the ME 1&2 days, before 3 caused things to get bitter. They were all fricking waifugays. Not to say that that's a bad thing, but that's what it was. It was basically "best girl" and "husbando" talk.
This is true, the commercial popularity of jrpg storytelling prompted a lot of late 90s wrpgs to focus more on cinematic character focused narratives.
But the gay in the op is clearly a partisan dumbass, and probably mostly only consumes anime, and since his only frame of reference is anime, he sees anime everywhere.
This isn't an interesting example since those goldbox games weren't interested in narrative, they're just dungeon crawlers.
https://i.imgur.com/5LtSBgZ.jpg
He’s right you know…
>ITT kids whose first dating sim RPG was ME2 think their first exposure was THE first exposure
It wasn't even the first Bioware dating sim RPG
they had been doing romance shit since Baldur's Gate days. As did other many games.
Lacking context. KOTOR had minor romance options, but ME (and Dragon's Age) absolutely EXPLODED that aspect of the games, and part of the genre. These were EA published, mainstream releases, with games like ME2 having 10+ characters you can attempt to bone. This was before the big take off of visual novels on Steam. This was before Persona hit mainstream, while also in the prime "lol Japan sucks" period of media coverage.
It's the most popular but it wasn't the first exposure, tons of prior RPG games had them. It's not like all Bioware games were these super obscure niche titles no one played until ME.
First "major" exposure. I'm not trying to be all oldgay on people, but practically every community dedicated to ME or DA (before ME3, before DA2) was just waifugayging. This was during the "fatlus" era of what people thought of Persona. This was before Katawa Shoujo. This was way before DDLC. So dating sim and visuals novels were obscure shit, maybe relegated to flash games on Newgrounds.
Meanwhile, Bioware here is dropping Morrigan, a goddamn tsundere in DA:O.
>a goddamn tsundere
This is the shit that annoys people, you can't talk about anything or any character without tying it into to anime stereotypes.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Problem is there isn't any other terminology that has become as popularized and as concise as "tsundere" to describe the exact circumstances of a character who acts hostile to conceal their affection.
Tsundere is used because tsundere is very specifically coined for the character archetype. Had the internet been more ubiquitous in the 90s, maybe some other term would have been come up with and adopted.
nta but I agree with you ME popularized it, ignoring Jade Empire was probably their first strong and explicit attempt at romance. I'm not sure if you're claiming ME was influenced by japanese dating sims, but if you are, I think it's instead an example of convergent evolution, since it's not like the west had no interest in romance and shipping, western media, pop fiction and television was full of it. Star Trek is the prototypical example of it.
>practically every community dedicated to ME or DA (before ME3, before DA2) was just waifugayging
That's because waifu arguments endure long after actual game discussion has died down, when everything has been said or done. Waifu gays will argue over the exact same shit for 100 years
It's the most popular but it wasn't the first exposure, tons of prior RPG games had them. It's not like all Bioware games were these super obscure niche titles no one played until ME.
Watershed game is what anon is trying to explain and is pretty accurate, ME romance has become the standard for how mainstream titles still write their romances. Get enough x points get to banging.
This is true, the commercial popularity of jrpg storytelling prompted a lot of late 90s wrpgs to focus more on cinematic character focused narratives.
But the gay in the op is clearly a partisan dumbass, and probably mostly only consumes anime, and since his only frame of reference is anime, he sees anime everywhere.
This isn't an interesting example since those goldbox games weren't interested in narrative, they're just dungeon crawlers.
>make a fun little game where you're Sauron bossing goblins around and it's really just "LoTR, but you play as Sauron commanding gobbos." >make a quick sequel that expanded on the gameplay a bit (it added sailing, on a bote!) but the narrative was weaker since now the inspiration was "barbarian overlord from Germania goes to sack Fantasy Rome" >make a third game, after a LONG time, and it's a shittily balanced aRPG instead of even being in the same genre as the old games
Overlord 3 was a mistake. fukken codemasters
Well, good. That's what someone generally hyped about life would write, among other things. Current era is NOT good for dating sim hybrids. Wokeism isn't helping any.
>??? is a quirky little sister archetype
So who is this applying to, cause I don't think its Tali or Garrus and those two are the two most popular characters.
>turn based combat >random encounters >gear focused gameplay >level grinding is encouraged >le funny xD enemy mobs like an epic cactus man detracting the game's tone
christ I hate nu-GoW's moronic "whole game has to be one uninterrupted shot because muh cinematic feel" schtick so much.
it NEVER improves the presentation at all and makes for constant moronic shit like that webm that could have just been a fade to black followed by a short cutscene and back to gameplay.
Unironically the Underage panty quest changed the industry because it showed how you could have stories where the protagonists are something more than dudebros that dont have feelings because that's gay.
All of those are cool. People think that WRPG combat is better because of the "freedom" you have with builds, but you are fricked if you don't choose the very few viable specialized ones strictly. All it amounts to is dumping into fully dumping points into STR, INT, or DEX/AGI. Again, illusion of choice and depth.
It is true, especially for those that have a level cap. You will be locked out of skills pertaining to those stats if you distribute it incorrectly. JRPG gear grinding is preferable than spending hours into a WRPG only to start again from messing up.
Again that really depends in the game and isn't true for most good ones provided you aren't moronic. Grinding is rarely good and even if you only have the options of STR, INT, DEX, that's still 3 compared to the none that most JRPGs have.
I can understand how turn based, gear grinding, and funny mobs would be enjoyable, but why on God's green earth would anyone enjoy random encounters? They suck the fun out of any game, and some games that have it are good IN SPITE of it and never because of it.
How the frick can you say that when chara build is almost nonexistent in most JRPGs and you're restricted or railroaded into being the obligatory swordsman because of muh story? Even in oldass shit like BG, I can decide which class to play as for my Charname.
>turn based combat >random encounters >level grinding is encouraged
These are either way more variations in this aspect than you give it credit for (turn-based) or haven’t been a thing since forever (random encounters and grinding).
bioware's only good game was mdk2. baldur's gate was a kind of shitty game that was impressive for the time it came out but did irreparable damage to the rpg genre by making everyone try to copy it. kotor was dumbed down baldur's gate for consoles and every game they have made since then has just been a further dumbing down of kotor.
Actually, could be an appropriate thread to ask. I've been in an argument with my friend once whether Dragon Ball Xenoverse games are JRPGs, what do you think?
>Soulsborne
A lot of Tales of titles unironically have more depth in their offensive and defensive options than Soulsborne given that the games (well, before the two-hit combo of Berseria and Arise) are inspired by fighting games.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Proceed to juggle punching bags for 5 minutes
Soulsborne enemies actually fight back unless you stunlock them with great weapons
8 months ago
Anonymous
to juggle punching bags for 5 minutes
The average player wouldn’t be able to pull that shit off without extensive knowledge beforehand. A lot of bosses in Vesperia in particular actually have tech outs that will punish you if you’re not in the know when it comes to how to anticipate their patterns. Unless you’re Alexei and he decides to say "frick it" and go "FLY O HOLY SWORD" on your ass.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Hey, that hurt!
8 months ago
Anonymous
to juggle punching bags for 5 minutes
Try that shit on Gattuso in Vesperia. I fricking dare you.
except Tali didn't fit into the 'quirky little sister' role until arguably 2. she's more of a tomboy if anything. none of them are anime tropes unless you distill them into extremely general moods or common personality types, which you can do for any media.
Mass Effect does rip off a lot, but mostly western sci-fi with a couple Jap influences like Kasumi.
Didn't bother me at all. All the decisions you made til then, they still mattered no matter what approach you decided on as the Final Solution for the Reapers. Only illiterate, meme fueled gays hated the endings. Especially because all 3 games built up to them, but most players were either too moronic or willfully ignorant to recognize it.
>Synthesis
Saren wanted this, main enemy of ME1.
>Control
The Illusive Man wanted this, basically the main enemy of ME2.
>Destroy
The only thing that the Reapers never wanted. We know for a fact that Shepard is at least partially indoctrinated by the end, which is why those other options even exist. If you chose anything besides Destroy (red) then congratulations, you were indoctrinated and the Reapers won.
The devs will never confirm this however, because it would cause a massive chimpout.
Should have mentioned that Saren and the Illusive Man were both completely indoctrinated by the end, so obviously anything that they "thought" they wanted was just what the Reapers wanted. But the Reapers never wanted the Destroy ending.
>but it'll destroy the Geth
Yeah they turned out to be cool, but tough shit. Not everyone can win.
>but it'll set back technology by thousands of years
So what? Life is clever, they can remake it without Reaper tech.
>it'll fragment the galaxy!
Yeah, and? So what?
Have faith in life. We will find a way. Life wouldn't exist if it died easily.
The extended cut helps a lot, turns the ending from Game of Thrones tier ruinous shit to just rather bad. Plus you have happy ending and other mods to fix even more.
>the ending sucked because I wanted a perfect fairy tale solution where everyone lived happily ever after
These teenager takes get so fricking old, really quickly. Go read some more Dr Suess books if that's what you're into instead of complaining that everything isn't like that.
Tell me your ideal ending. Let me guess, the Reapers are defeated, forgotten, and you move to a remote planet with Liara to have thousands of Asari children that eventually dominate the systems.
western companies in general stopped being good when they stopped using tried and true character cliches and started making every character "flawed" and every decision "shades of gray". people don't play video games to deal with this fricking bullshit. they play games to experience idealized worlds where good guys are good, bad guys are bad, women are sexy as hell, the hero gets the girl and saves the world and lives happily ever after, and normies and their constant bullshit drama don't fricking exist.
It's possible to make tragedies and have them be popular (Torment). But yes. And I'm afraid waifuhomosexualry is important. Shit's well rewarded with positive emotion.
Yeah, we know. The issue only came about when women were introduced as writers and brought into these companies where their sentiments were placed before the core demographic and primary consumer of the medium in general: men. Tone down the sexuality of women and the male's tolerance of that woman plummets if she isn't charismatic or pretty enough to make up for her personality. Because at the end of a day you have to make a world and characters that makes a person want to spend their time there and more often than not rescuing a beautiful woman and reaping the rewards of her return is the catalyst. The call to action. Because testosterone, hero's journey, etc. Whatever the term is men possessively seek it in their escapist fantasy. Stifling it leads to stagnation and ruin.
Nothing wrong with flawed characters, but it always gets written back around so their weakness is actually their strength. Nah....sometimes a weakness is just a weakness. Not many good characters get written like this.
One example is Takemura from 2077. He's a good guy, and you can get him to admit that a lot of what he believes in is bullshit. He tells you himself, "What's the phrase, ah yes, I am an 'old dog that cannot learn new tricks'".
You might think he's just saying that, until you trust him to have your back in one ending, but, just like he said, he has not learned any new tricks, he's still a corpo slave.
Why do people respond to this thread seriously when it's just a twitter screenshot twitter? Every one of you are the problem with this board. You want every fricking excuse to give your shit take that no one cares about on everything, to point where it stymies discourse and bumps obvious bait. Christ I hope chinkmoot pulls the fricking plug already.
Sometimes but not always
I feel like ME2 ripped off FF6 a LOT in terms of the way it was structured around putting together a huge crew of party members as well as fulfilling their extra side quest to unlock their full kit/get their best gear.
I don't know how true this is for most of their other games. Does DAO rip off any animes?
I mean, the characters are sort of more exaggerated personality-wise once you get into the KOTOR era of Bioware
Probably, but 20-30 years ago no one had idea of what videogames could even be or become. It was just a bunch of friends doing games
FF7 that opened the minds for many people of the potential it could have, as that writer said it himself.
Why does anyone care about JRPG’s? SE stopped giving a frick, most modern JRPG’s are either just ARPG’s (like usual) or indie dogshit meanwhile Baldur’s Gate 3 is about to open the door for CRPG’s all over again.
What is this even supposed to mean? The fact you dont like these games anymore doesnt change their impact and their relevance for the industry. It's something you'll have to live with.
Maybe 10 years ago? Its like saying Ultima Underworld or older text based adventure games holds relevance nowadays. It does not, it stopped being relevant ages ago.
lol, sorry bro. Until this day there are people who still praise movies made 50 years ago. Videogames are still a fresh medium, so you will sadly hear about these games for many years. Even more when their franchises are still alive. You cant run from them.
>Ultima Underworld
Baldur's Gate 3's primary source of inspiration, as stated by the devs themselves, was Ultima 7 (released in the same year as Underworld, 1992), and it's been the biggest RPG hit in years whether I like it or not. Ultima continues to hold massive relevance.
The "Immersive Sim" is an evolution of Ultima Underworld, Ultima 7 and Deus Ex, and that continues to be one of the subgenres that are growing most rapidly in recent years.
Japan, as always, are stubbornly behind the curve. Their stubborn asses continue to cling to the Wizardry 1-3 and Ultima 3 models they copied back in the 80s, right down to still making new Wizardry games that play exactly like they did in the 80s. Those old as frick games are -extremely- relevant, otherwise we would have had far more JRPGs that operate more like the far more evolved Ultima 7 and Wizardry 8, and not the ridiculously still-popular grid movement turn based dungeon crawlers that the Japs shit out seemingly every other day.
>right down to still making new Wizardry games that play exactly like they did in the 80s. Those old as frick games are -extremely- relevant, otherwise we would have had far more JRPGs that operate more like the far more evolved Ultima 7 and Wizardry 8, and not the ridiculously still-popular grid movement turn based dungeon crawlers that the Japs shit out seemingly every other day.
The frick kind of JRPGs have you been playing?
The timing of FF7 would imply the inspiration started at Baldur’s Gate, which is flagrantly untrue since anyone who isn’t a greasy weeaboo would understand that those two games were Ultima and Highlander put in a blender with D&D
>it's just like my japanese animes!
It's just tropey, which is what anime is.
People who shit on JRPGs for their writing are hilarious since WRPG devs thought that JRPG writing was superior. Planescape Torment credited FF7 for the inspiration.
All JRPGs, even the worst ones, have great characters, world building, and a overall theme.
I never understood the WRPG hatred of them.
>it doesn't have muh multiple choices
Those choices literally do not matter all and incentivize the good choices.
The hero is always some kind of an Arthur knock off, which was already a Jesus knock off but with swords and knighthood. If there is a wise wizard or sorceror, it is ripping off Merlin, Rogues, Robin hood, female knights, joan of arc, cleric are always pure, untouched holy people. The troupes themselves aren't really an issue, its how they played it off. They always plays it off straight. JRPGs too have this issue, even in FFs, it was until FFV where they start playing around with the concept of adding "fun" into the characters. Even Sakaguchi himself credits Kitase for introducing it.
homie the hero arc is way older than Jesus. Gilgamesh was already written with the path of the hero arc
I prefer the original Zug the Caveman story myself
>The hero is always some kind of an Arthur knock off, which was already a Jesus knock off but with swords and knighthood. If there is a wise wizard or sorceror, it is ripping off Merlin, Rogues, Robin hood, female knights, joan of arc, cleric are always pure, untouched holy people.
I like what you referenced. good post
ME1 was the closest one to JRPGs, because you spent half of the game traveling around empty worlds with some having "zone bosses" in them (thresher maws), while the other half is grinding materials and research points to level up your gear,. Oh and there's also some roleplay.
>All JRPGs, even the worst ones, have great characters, world building, and a overall theme.
Wrong. The vast majority of JRPGs are shovelware like pic rel. The one's with good worldbuilding/interesting characters are few and far between.
Honestly, the only thing going for most of these titles is that maybe the cover girl looks hot, but gameplay wise? Slop.
oldgays who used to rent videogames knows most the JRPGs were slop/bait
wait a minute is that the fricking porn artstyle for another lady innocent?
Satoshi Urushihara, yes.
Growlanser 2 and 3 are good tho.
3's worldbuilding doesn't mesh with 1's, lol. New writers have a shitty tendency to openly disrespect their predecessor's work.
>I never understood the WRPG hatred of them.
Anti-japan xenophobia from westoids.
It was good inspiration but most JRPGs including 7 are not well written. Better than the earliest WRPG but nothing compared to something like Planescape. Be honest it annoys me they were inspired by a shitty cast like FF7 instead of a good game.
FF7 had a great story. You played as ecoterrorist anti-heroes who acknowledged their hypocrisy and selfish motivations in order to unite with your old enemies to save a dying planet.
Under the basis of them not ripping their settings from tabletop games, JRPG worldbuilding is superior. They try to make unique worlds and mechanics instead of doing a 1:1 copy of a setting or ruleset.
Most JRPGs are ripping off of Dragon Quest, which is ripping of of D&D, which in turn is ripping off of LotR, which took a lot of inspiration from European folklore.
Don't try an act like JRPGs don't impose the same level of illusory freedom that western RPGs do. Besides, build complexity isn't the end-all be-all of RPGs. That post of mine was more about pointing out how tedious playing JRPGs is more than western ones. The first couple of hours of something like FFX, where the game bombards you with cutscenes, talking, and tutorials, is far more mind-numbing than the first two hours of New Vegas.
People who think tropes and inspiration are bad are basically picrel.
The situation around JRPGs is kind of hilarious, because back then the JRPG devs hated the moniker, they felt like they were being ostracized. And now this moniker morphed into something that people have vague idea of and firmly believe it's something concrete, and overtime started putting on pedestal as a sort of complete reversal. So now we are in a situation where everyone has a different idea of what a JRPG is, like for some reason Final Fantasy 7 Remake is a JRPG, but Dark Souls isn't, but Final Fantasy 16 is, but Yakuza (pre LAD even) aren't, but Secret of Mana is, but Nier Automata isn't. And why, I have no fricking idea.
why is my cute assassin wife thinking about french fries?
It’s pretty simple, JRPG/WRPG were the Japanese and Western variants of the same kind of RPG concept.
Dark Souls is not a JRPG at all - it’s closer to a WRPG (due to the blank slate character), but isn’t on of those either, as both JRPGs and WRPGs should have a party system.
>both JRPGs and WRPGs should have a party system.
By your logic, that means DQ1 doesn’t count as a JRPG.
I think you just removed every WRPG from existence with this. Morrowind isn't a WRPG, Deus Ex isn't a WRPG, VTM isn't a WRPG.
I mean you put an actual definition to it, something it is sorely lacking, but I think it's a dumb one.
>People who shit on JRPGs for their writing are hilarious since WRPG devs thought that JRPG writing was superior. Planescape Torment credited FF7 for the inspiration.
i've never shit on either genre because they both have highlights but pst crediting ff7 doesn't cheapen it in any way. almost all creation in human history is derivative to some degree; it's hard not to be inspired by other cool shit that's out there. and ff7 was a really great game with some really cool storytelling, although the english tl left a lot to be desired.
>All JRPGs, even the worst ones, have great characters, world building, and a overall theme.
>I never understood the WRPG hatred of them.
Beeing mechanicaly shallow VNs, who cares about writing in a VIDEO GAME.
Some Western writers being inspired by the best of the best from JRPGs does not mean that they're all of similar quality, anon.
Lots of japs are inspired by Western games too, but they only care about the best ones (in their opinion, which doesn't always line up with Western opinions). Kojima is a Westaboo and would let a white soldier frick his wife
>Planescape Torment credited FF7 for the inspiration.
For the spell animations, certainly not the writing you idiot.
>Planescape Torment credited FF7 for the inspiration.
I'm going to hunt you down and slap your ass until you cry tears of piss.
You're completely missing the point.
There is no point except a weeb trying to claim everything is anime.
All characters are cardboard cutouts. What you do with them is what matters. In BioWare's case, they forgot that people prefer likeable characters with virtues and faults.
>tropey
I hate you and anybody who parrots this word.
tropes are an actual word that existed before the internet.
I am aware. Thus why I used the word "parrot".
>All characters are cardboard cutouts
Stories are also nothing but a bunch of cliches for the most part, but it all comes back to execution. If the execution is done well then you can walk away with enjoyable characters and story, but the obsession with trying to subvert some cliches is leading to very flawed, in a bad way, characters and stories.
I never said it was bad, morons. Just stating a fact. Anime is tropey. That's probably why I like it so much.
Everything is tropey. Anime and JRPGs are tropey in ways that are appealing to people who don't suck. Enjoy your cop drama or whatever you dumbfricks watch.
>tropey
You're just an imbecil
I bet you like to use the word 'toxicity' a lot too
What a complete non-post. Most of the tropes you see in Anime/Manga came from Anime/Manga to begin with. So something western using those specific tropes is indeed just like my japanese animes.
Westerners were writing epics while Asians were still throwing sand at each other. Read about what the Greece though of the Asians, in their few encounters. Or Marco Polo, for that matter. Tribal warlords, at best, while Westerners were already building empires and advanced tech. (arabs too)
>shit that happened 1500 years ago
Not an argument.
Yeah, if you wanna see how trash WRPG writing used to be, I suggest checking some of the GoldBox AD&D games. Most of it is just imagery/scenery since the graphic were so bad. Barely any real characters.
This is true, the commercial popularity of jrpg storytelling prompted a lot of late 90s wrpgs to focus more on cinematic character focused narratives.
But the gay in the op is clearly a partisan dumbass, and probably mostly only consumes anime, and since his only frame of reference is anime, he sees anime everywhere.
This isn't an interesting example since those goldbox games weren't interested in narrative, they're just dungeon crawlers.
>Most of it is just imagery/scenery since the graphic were so bad. Barely any real characters.
why is this a bad thing? plenty of JRPGs were the same, with stuff like Chrono Trigger standing out as the exception.
Why the frick are you bringing up graphics if you're trying to criticize writing? Can you keep simple thoughts straight in your head? Also
>game from 1986 looks dated
"oh no"
Irony is bad. Sincerity is good. "Tropes" should never be subverted, they should be played completely straight.
Garus is the most popular Mass Effect character, not Tali
Garrus is the quirkly little sister. His entire character arc is that to Shepard unless you're a troon playing a female.
Mass Effect is inspired by old timey space shows like Star Trek and Babylon 5. Beyond one "quirky little sister" archetype, which is not exclusively an anime trope I might add, there is nothing "anime" about the characters.
Why did he abounded the feelswildride user name?
he just said he wanted to change. And he doesnt care if people still call him mr feel
it's not exactly 'jrpg' to make your characters actual characters with personality traits and backstories. that's just a story. that's what a story is. that wrpgs were characterized for a long time as 'having cardboard cutout characters' is part of why they never took off compared to jrpgs at the time, not a facet of the genre its developers should be proud of.
Bioware stopped being good when EA succeeded in a hostile takeover and pushed out everyone talented
I'll go further and say that Mass Effect was the west's first major exposure to dating sim elements. You should have SEEN the 'fandom' back in the ME 1&2 days, before 3 caused things to get bitter. They were all fricking waifugays. Not to say that that's a bad thing, but that's what it was. It was basically "best girl" and "husbando" talk.
>ITT kids whose first dating sim RPG was ME2 think their first exposure was THE first exposure
It wasn't even the first Bioware dating sim RPG
Lacking context. KOTOR had minor romance options, but ME (and Dragon's Age) absolutely EXPLODED that aspect of the games, and part of the genre. These were EA published, mainstream releases, with games like ME2 having 10+ characters you can attempt to bone. This was before the big take off of visual novels on Steam. This was before Persona hit mainstream, while also in the prime "lol Japan sucks" period of media coverage.
ME and DA made that shit blow up.
It's the most popular but it wasn't the first exposure, tons of prior RPG games had them. It's not like all Bioware games were these super obscure niche titles no one played until ME.
First "major" exposure. I'm not trying to be all oldgay on people, but practically every community dedicated to ME or DA (before ME3, before DA2) was just waifugayging. This was during the "fatlus" era of what people thought of Persona. This was before Katawa Shoujo. This was way before DDLC. So dating sim and visuals novels were obscure shit, maybe relegated to flash games on Newgrounds.
Meanwhile, Bioware here is dropping Morrigan, a goddamn tsundere in DA:O.
>a goddamn tsundere
This is the shit that annoys people, you can't talk about anything or any character without tying it into to anime stereotypes.
Problem is there isn't any other terminology that has become as popularized and as concise as "tsundere" to describe the exact circumstances of a character who acts hostile to conceal their affection.
Tsundere is used because tsundere is very specifically coined for the character archetype. Had the internet been more ubiquitous in the 90s, maybe some other term would have been come up with and adopted.
nta but I agree with you ME popularized it, ignoring Jade Empire was probably their first strong and explicit attempt at romance. I'm not sure if you're claiming ME was influenced by japanese dating sims, but if you are, I think it's instead an example of convergent evolution, since it's not like the west had no interest in romance and shipping, western media, pop fiction and television was full of it. Star Trek is the prototypical example of it.
>practically every community dedicated to ME or DA (before ME3, before DA2) was just waifugayging
That's because waifu arguments endure long after actual game discussion has died down, when everything has been said or done. Waifu gays will argue over the exact same shit for 100 years
Watershed game is what anon is trying to explain and is pretty accurate, ME romance has become the standard for how mainstream titles still write their romances. Get enough x points get to banging.
I didn't claim that here
they had been doing romance shit since Baldur's Gate days. As did other many games.
Overlord came out a month before Mass Effect.
>make a fun little game where you're Sauron bossing goblins around and it's really just "LoTR, but you play as Sauron commanding gobbos."
>make a quick sequel that expanded on the gameplay a bit (it added sailing, on a bote!) but the narrative was weaker since now the inspiration was "barbarian overlord from Germania goes to sack Fantasy Rome"
>make a third game, after a LONG time, and it's a shittily balanced aRPG instead of even being in the same genre as the old games
Overlord 3 was a mistake. fukken codemasters
Well, good. That's what someone generally hyped about life would write, among other things. Current era is NOT good for dating sim hybrids. Wokeism isn't helping any.
>??? is a quirky little sister archetype
So who is this applying to, cause I don't think its Tali or Garrus and those two are the two most popular characters.
I assumed they meant Tali but that doesn't make sense and I don't know who else it could be.
>the most popular character in Mass Effect is the Quirky Little Sister archetype
Wrex?
>westoids can't do anything but copy
>their games are garbage
next you're going to tell me water is wet
>turn based combat
>random encounters
>gear focused gameplay
>level grinding is encouraged
>le funny xD enemy mobs like an epic cactus man detracting the game's tone
Really who's games are garbage, weeaboo?
Neither of those games are RPGs, you autist. They're action-adventure games.
>
christ I hate nu-GoW's moronic "whole game has to be one uninterrupted shot because muh cinematic feel" schtick so much.
it NEVER improves the presentation at all and makes for constant moronic shit like that webm that could have just been a fade to black followed by a short cutscene and back to gameplay.
i remember when we had to save midna, why can't sony just copy that?
>Western games
>Manly Death: Battle Explosion
or
>Concrete Tower Simulation
>Eastern Games
>Underage Panty Quest XIIV: Hurt Feelings Edition
Unironically the Underage panty quest changed the industry because it showed how you could have stories where the protagonists are something more than dudebros that dont have feelings because that's gay.
I wish writers could strike a balance between "feelings don't matter" and "feelings are everything"
sometimes they matter, sometimes they are irrelevant because there are way more important things going on. It depends.
For me, it's Manly Death: Heterosexual Warfare
>Underage Panty Quest
We can't even have that anymore due to California forcing Japan to censor everything.
Sony chose this fate when they opened up an American branch in California.
All of those are cool. People think that WRPG combat is better because of the "freedom" you have with builds, but you are fricked if you don't choose the very few viable specialized ones strictly. All it amounts to is dumping into fully dumping points into STR, INT, or DEX/AGI. Again, illusion of choice and depth.
That's a broad and incorrect generalization you are making there.
It is true, especially for those that have a level cap. You will be locked out of skills pertaining to those stats if you distribute it incorrectly. JRPG gear grinding is preferable than spending hours into a WRPG only to start again from messing up.
Again that really depends in the game and isn't true for most good ones provided you aren't moronic. Grinding is rarely good and even if you only have the options of STR, INT, DEX, that's still 3 compared to the none that most JRPGs have.
I can understand how turn based, gear grinding, and funny mobs would be enjoyable, but why on God's green earth would anyone enjoy random encounters? They suck the fun out of any game, and some games that have it are good IN SPITE of it and never because of it.
How the frick can you say that when chara build is almost nonexistent in most JRPGs and you're restricted or railroaded into being the obligatory swordsman because of muh story? Even in oldass shit like BG, I can decide which class to play as for my Charname.
>turn based combat
>random encounters
>level grinding is encouraged
These are either way more variations in this aspect than you give it credit for (turn-based) or haven’t been a thing since forever (random encounters and grinding).
copy the nuke, pussy
bioware's only good game was mdk2. baldur's gate was a kind of shitty game that was impressive for the time it came out but did irreparable damage to the rpg genre by making everyone try to copy it. kotor was dumbed down baldur's gate for consoles and every game they have made since then has just been a further dumbing down of kotor.
Bioware stopped being good after DA1 and ME1.
actually this is the real reason western games are bad
Yeah people like Tali because she's a "little sister" and not because she had wide hips and a foreign voice
Fricking idiot
Weebs are so fricking annoying, they ignorantly call everything an anime trope
>BioWare fans vs. jarpig fans
I challenge you to find a bigger waste of time than that
What are the chances Dreadwolf isn't eventually cancelled? 20%? Less?
Actually, could be an appropriate thread to ask. I've been in an argument with my friend once whether Dragon Ball Xenoverse games are JRPGs, what do you think?
I guess so.
>Not turn-based
>JRPG
I guess Xenoblade, Tales of Vesperia, Trials of Mana, and Persona 5 aren't JRPGs either.
Next you are going to say Bloodbourne is a JRPG.
>Japanese developers
>roleplay elements
>gear system
Yes.
>JRPGs are RPGs made by Japanese developers
Am smart cause am intelligent
Let's see your definition then, Einstein.
JRPG is something like Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy. You just feel it.
>You just feel it
Incredible. So you have no real definition after all. Answer me right now, are Ys, the Tales series, and Star Ocean not JRPGs?
What he actually means is "if it's an rpg that I don't like, it's an jrpg".
The same reason that these morons use when they say that old jrpgs wasn't "anime"
I mean, yeah, next you are going to say Pokemon is a JRPG? Or Monster Hunter?
This is a JRPG.
That we can agree on
Answer me anon
I haven't played either of them.
>what's a woman
>i dunno, i just feel it
>so you have no real definition
I can point out what makes a biological woman. Can you point out what makes a JRPG?
Are Omori and Lisa JRPGs?
>Xenoblade
>Tales of
>Trials of
Discount action game wannabes. Go play MonHun, Nioh, Soulsborne, or DMC instead of these watered down slops.
>play my slop not your slop
lol
>half assed action combat
>half assed RPG elements
Worst of both worlds
>Soulsborne
A lot of Tales of titles unironically have more depth in their offensive and defensive options than Soulsborne given that the games (well, before the two-hit combo of Berseria and Arise) are inspired by fighting games.
>Proceed to juggle punching bags for 5 minutes
Soulsborne enemies actually fight back unless you stunlock them with great weapons
to juggle punching bags for 5 minutes
The average player wouldn’t be able to pull that shit off without extensive knowledge beforehand. A lot of bosses in Vesperia in particular actually have tech outs that will punish you if you’re not in the know when it comes to how to anticipate their patterns. Unless you’re Alexei and he decides to say "frick it" and go "FLY O HOLY SWORD" on your ass.
Hey, that hurt!
to juggle punching bags for 5 minutes
Try that shit on Gattuso in Vesperia. I fricking dare you.
That is a fib
>claims that Tales and Trials are discount action games wannabes while recommending fricking Soulsborne
Lol
Lmao
Casual-ass recommendations you got there. Where’s some God Hand? Or Onimusha? Or Bujingai?
You can't say that when xenoblade 2 exists
>Kingdom Hearts is a JRPG
except Tali didn't fit into the 'quirky little sister' role until arguably 2. she's more of a tomboy if anything. none of them are anime tropes unless you distill them into extremely general moods or common personality types, which you can do for any media.
Mass Effect does rip off a lot, but mostly western sci-fi with a couple Jap influences like Kasumi.
This forum used to like mass effect
And it still does.
3's ending is enough to make me not to replay it. I imagine I'm not the only one.
Didn't bother me at all. All the decisions you made til then, they still mattered no matter what approach you decided on as the Final Solution for the Reapers. Only illiterate, meme fueled gays hated the endings. Especially because all 3 games built up to them, but most players were either too moronic or willfully ignorant to recognize it.
>Synthesis
Saren wanted this, main enemy of ME1.
>Control
The Illusive Man wanted this, basically the main enemy of ME2.
>Destroy
The only thing that the Reapers never wanted. We know for a fact that Shepard is at least partially indoctrinated by the end, which is why those other options even exist. If you chose anything besides Destroy (red) then congratulations, you were indoctrinated and the Reapers won.
The devs will never confirm this however, because it would cause a massive chimpout.
Should have mentioned that Saren and the Illusive Man were both completely indoctrinated by the end, so obviously anything that they "thought" they wanted was just what the Reapers wanted. But the Reapers never wanted the Destroy ending.
>but it'll destroy the Geth
Yeah they turned out to be cool, but tough shit. Not everyone can win.
>but it'll set back technology by thousands of years
So what? Life is clever, they can remake it without Reaper tech.
>it'll fragment the galaxy!
Yeah, and? So what?
Have faith in life. We will find a way. Life wouldn't exist if it died easily.
The extended cut helps a lot, turns the ending from Game of Thrones tier ruinous shit to just rather bad. Plus you have happy ending and other mods to fix even more.
>the ending sucked because I wanted a perfect fairy tale solution where everyone lived happily ever after
These teenager takes get so fricking old, really quickly. Go read some more Dr Suess books if that's what you're into instead of complaining that everything isn't like that.
Dr. Seuss books still have better endings than ME3.
Tell me your ideal ending. Let me guess, the Reapers are defeated, forgotten, and you move to a remote planet with Liara to have thousands of Asari children that eventually dominate the systems.
1 & 2 are good but also 1>>>2
western companies in general stopped being good when they stopped using tried and true character cliches and started making every character "flawed" and every decision "shades of gray". people don't play video games to deal with this fricking bullshit. they play games to experience idealized worlds where good guys are good, bad guys are bad, women are sexy as hell, the hero gets the girl and saves the world and lives happily ever after, and normies and their constant bullshit drama don't fricking exist.
It's possible to make tragedies and have them be popular (Torment). But yes. And I'm afraid waifuhomosexualry is important. Shit's well rewarded with positive emotion.
Yeah, we know. The issue only came about when women were introduced as writers and brought into these companies where their sentiments were placed before the core demographic and primary consumer of the medium in general: men. Tone down the sexuality of women and the male's tolerance of that woman plummets if she isn't charismatic or pretty enough to make up for her personality. Because at the end of a day you have to make a world and characters that makes a person want to spend their time there and more often than not rescuing a beautiful woman and reaping the rewards of her return is the catalyst. The call to action. Because testosterone, hero's journey, etc. Whatever the term is men possessively seek it in their escapist fantasy. Stifling it leads to stagnation and ruin.
Nothing wrong with flawed characters, but it always gets written back around so their weakness is actually their strength. Nah....sometimes a weakness is just a weakness. Not many good characters get written like this.
One example is Takemura from 2077. He's a good guy, and you can get him to admit that a lot of what he believes in is bullshit. He tells you himself, "What's the phrase, ah yes, I am an 'old dog that cannot learn new tricks'".
You might think he's just saying that, until you trust him to have your back in one ending, but, just like he said, he has not learned any new tricks, he's still a corpo slave.
>twitter screenshot thread
Already becoming scarce but no less banal.
kys weaboos your pedophile anime shit will never compare to planescape torment or mass effect
based gayscape troonment enjoyer. you tell em xister!
Well, this is obvious.
Bioware writers themselves talked about how much FF7 was lifechanging for them.
Why do people respond to this thread seriously when it's just a twitter screenshot twitter? Every one of you are the problem with this board. You want every fricking excuse to give your shit take that no one cares about on everything, to point where it stymies discourse and bumps obvious bait. Christ I hope chinkmoot pulls the fricking plug already.
>stymies discourse
>people are discussing the semantics of JRPGs
>quirky little sister
Is he talking about Mission from KOTOR? I don't know any little sister types in Mass Effect. DA2 had Merrill.
Sometimes but not always
I feel like ME2 ripped off FF6 a LOT in terms of the way it was structured around putting together a huge crew of party members as well as fulfilling their extra side quest to unlock their full kit/get their best gear.
I don't know how true this is for most of their other games. Does DAO rip off any animes?
I mean, the characters are sort of more exaggerated personality-wise once you get into the KOTOR era of Bioware
Like, the first post he's quoting is a report of a OG Bioware and BG's writer talking about how ff7 changed them. So it was FF7.
Ah, I missed that. Thank you.
I suppose. Maybe there should be required reading/gaming before you become a writer on a project?
Probably, but 20-30 years ago no one had idea of what videogames could even be or become. It was just a bunch of friends doing games
FF7 that opened the minds for many people of the potential it could have, as that writer said it himself.
Why does anyone care about JRPG’s? SE stopped giving a frick, most modern JRPG’s are either just ARPG’s (like usual) or indie dogshit meanwhile Baldur’s Gate 3 is about to open the door for CRPG’s all over again.
What is this even supposed to mean? The fact you dont like these games anymore doesnt change their impact and their relevance for the industry. It's something you'll have to live with.
Maybe 10 years ago? Its like saying Ultima Underworld or older text based adventure games holds relevance nowadays. It does not, it stopped being relevant ages ago.
lol, sorry bro. Until this day there are people who still praise movies made 50 years ago. Videogames are still a fresh medium, so you will sadly hear about these games for many years. Even more when their franchises are still alive. You cant run from them.
Dude thinks that new games delete the legacy of the old ones. Probably the biggest zoomer mentality ever.
>"BG3 is the new game, why are you talking and praising what made it become what it is now, that game is old"
>Ultima Underworld
Baldur's Gate 3's primary source of inspiration, as stated by the devs themselves, was Ultima 7 (released in the same year as Underworld, 1992), and it's been the biggest RPG hit in years whether I like it or not. Ultima continues to hold massive relevance.
The "Immersive Sim" is an evolution of Ultima Underworld, Ultima 7 and Deus Ex, and that continues to be one of the subgenres that are growing most rapidly in recent years.
Japan, as always, are stubbornly behind the curve. Their stubborn asses continue to cling to the Wizardry 1-3 and Ultima 3 models they copied back in the 80s, right down to still making new Wizardry games that play exactly like they did in the 80s. Those old as frick games are -extremely- relevant, otherwise we would have had far more JRPGs that operate more like the far more evolved Ultima 7 and Wizardry 8, and not the ridiculously still-popular grid movement turn based dungeon crawlers that the Japs shit out seemingly every other day.
>right down to still making new Wizardry games that play exactly like they did in the 80s. Those old as frick games are -extremely- relevant, otherwise we would have had far more JRPGs that operate more like the far more evolved Ultima 7 and Wizardry 8, and not the ridiculously still-popular grid movement turn based dungeon crawlers that the Japs shit out seemingly every other day.
The frick kind of JRPGs have you been playing?
You sound like a moron who hasn’t explored past the surface-level assumptions of a genre and get mad at problems that don’t even exist.
I dont really see Tali being the little sister archetype.
she's feminine and hypervulnerable and loves you and needs your protection. she's def a little sister archetype.
Your brain has dissolved from excessive hentai consumption, seek help immediately.
.......................Shepard.
I realized how this statement bothered some people and now we have some RETVRN fellas going in some crazy west vs east shit lol
MDK2 is the only bioware game I've ever played. It was pretty good.
>Bioware games
>Games designed after d&d to the point that they were almost sued
>Somehow copied JRPGs
I'm not buying it
Did you even read OP's image?
Anyone who played dragon age 2 can see that bioware was going anime as frick with their stories.
The Meredith's final boss fight was ANIME AS FRICK.
?si=zr7uceNBRXvBFwlL
I've read ops image but i have no idea what was said. I feel like the older i get the less i understand what is written on online platforms
The only good Bioshit game is DA:O. Mass Effect and KOTOR where shit.
Planescape: Torment is a good jrpg too
The timing of FF7 would imply the inspiration started at Baldur’s Gate, which is flagrantly untrue since anyone who isn’t a greasy weeaboo would understand that those two games were Ultima and Highlander put in a blender with D&D
Wrong, It's Dungeons & Dragons and Twink & Harem.