bit immodest for the first rival battle i think
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bit immodest for the first rival battle i think
bit immodest for the first rival battle i think
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>level scaling
instant sign of a moron who doesn’t know how to design a game
fpbp
boy I sure do love not being able to use fun mons and instead having to use the best because my nosepass at the max levelcap can't keep up with anything
you picked the hardest difficulty
some games (coff coff, clover) have mandatory level caps
>Oh teh noes!
>I can't grind my heckin Pokey Mans so they can sweep the early game!
>Whatever shall I do?
Grinding your entire team is unbelievably time consuming pre-gen 5. Hell, even in gen 5 it takes long enough that I gave up and just went with an underleveled party to the final boss.
Anyone autistic enough to do it deserves the advantage.
That's literally the point of grinding in RPGs. Its a fallback strat for ehen you cant win with skill. If you can't win with skill, you should still have the option and punishment of the timesink of havig yo grind in order to progress. Level scaling ruins the entire point of level and stat progression in RPGs and is a symptom of comphomosexualry tricking people into thinking Single player is PVP and balanced around being the same level as thr A.I.
This is just moronic take noe.
You should be rewarded for increasing your strength, not forced to fight for your life literally the entire game no matter what you do.
Scaling deletes options and freedom. Forces you to optimize for specific encounters.
>ROMhack thinks putting ballbusting hyperoptimized competitive sets on normal trainers is "difficulty"
fpbp
>ROMhack thinks putting ballbusting hyperoptimized competitive sets on normal trainers is "difficulty"
... Yes? That is indeed one way to make things more difficult.
It's gay way to make things difficult.
Hack devs should take notes from classic rpgs and dungeon crawlers and challenge player by limiting their resources. This also allows devs to slowly crank-up power of enemies instead of losing steam in mid-game because they already hit progress level where everything is fully evolved and has available best moves.
Why giving early-game Bug Catcher dude Volcarona when you can make Weedle scary by making Antidotes more expensive and/or harder to obtain?
Ever notice how fixated the fandom is on the idea that every gym leader should have 6 pokemon, you shouldn't be able to use items in trainer battles, etc? Most of these people, including the people making these hacks, don't actually understand the game design.
items in battle are stupid and promote grinding over anything else
Items in battle allow you to avoid grinding by overcoming the sheer gap in stats you're likely to have if you don't do any XP farming.
Resources have not mattered in a meaningful way in Pokemon simply because of how the game itself is structured. There's a reason the Kaizo method of game design is mostly exclusive to those games.
Untrue. Resources didnt stop mattering until gen 5.
>Hack devs should take notes from classic rpgs and dungeon crawlers and challenge player by limiting their resources
Classic RPGs such as wizardry also had tons of bullshit that includes but not limited to
>instant kill attacks in games with perma death
>level down
>forever lol
>also ambushes so they get to do the above first lol
>warps back to start of dungeon lol
>warp maze that faces you in a different direction every time you step on a tile
kill attacks in games with perma death
down
lol
>>also ambushes so they get to do the above first lol
back to start of dungeon lol
>>warp maze that faces you in a different direction every time you step on a tile
sounds pretty groovy
I love them don't get me wrong it is just antithetical to what anon was saying. Old RPGs were bullshit hard because they used bullshit to pad for time
Old RPGs were hard because tabletop games they lifted mechanics from were unforgiving. Because the audience for that kind of game was very niche and put up with it.
Also they were for adults by and large. In truth pokemon doesn't lend itself well to traditional RPGs without a shit ton of donutsteel OC moves and power ups because as long as the player is on an even field they should always be able to beat an AI. Pokemon "average " moves are BP 80 were extremely strong is 120. In a traditional RPG if average is 100 high would be like 500. Too much compression to make a meaningful challenge
All of this is based. Worst fricking thing that happened to the RPG genre was becoming mainstream. D&D can't even use the word "race" anymore.
Completely agree. I was just shitting on anons moronic concept that old RPGs weren't bullshit. They were and they were (are) fun
God forbid any games do something fun and different, everything must adhere to the Updated Standard(tm) to appease the lowest common denominator.
All this is kino though? The Classic RPGs you are talking about were modeled after Rogue and Rogue-likes today including PMD use these very mechanics
Modern Pokemon would be way better with more of this stuff tbh
Wizardry is not based on rogue moron
It it is or Rogie is based onnit or a similar source of inspiration. The details dont actually matter.
>or a similar source of inspiration
Have you heard of Dungeons and Dragons? It was a small indie game from the 70's, I guess it's kind of obscure.
Obviously but its just so lazy to go "lolRPG = DnD" as opposed to looking for more direct premutations that it spawned with more pronounced philosophies and similarities.
Rogue was a combination of D&D and Colossal Cave Adventure, thus the adventure game elements.
Wizardry was based on Oubliette, which was probably based on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnd_(1975_video_game)
Back in the 70's, college students were all making and playing games for the PLATO system, and most of those games were directly based on D&D. These college students all played D&D themselves, so they were using both other D&D-based PLATO games and D&D itself as inspiration. These PLATO games would later form the foundation for all RPG's, all first-person games, and all multiplayer games.
Limiting resources only works if dungeons are far far longer. The only dungeon in the series people tend to run out of resources exploring naturally is rock tunnel and a couple of victory roads. Now if we got custom hacks with huge dungeons I agree
The problem with resource scarcity in Pokemon is you can be in the middle of a dungeon with your whole team about to faint after defeating a bunch of trainers and click dig/fly/teleport or just walk to a pokemon center and heal for free and get right back to where you were with a fully restored team in like 2 minutes. Even if healing items cost a fortune it wouldn't matter outside of the Elite 4/ champ and by that point you should have enough money to at least get by. The only work around I can think of is to make healing expensive while also charging players a semi steep fee to use pokemon centers or naps at a random granny's house. As is it is just way too easy to heal in a pokemon game, but thats kind of the standard rule in RPG's
Older games solved this by having ridiculously high encounter rates, so you can't get around having your resources drained.
how 'bout this
>healing at pokemon centers costs a steadily incresing amount of money depending on your progress. there are spots around the region where you can heal for free, but they're rare and out of the way
>dungeons cannot be left once you enter, you will have to do them in one go. (unless you have dig or teleport, but if you re-enter a dungeon you will have to refight trainers)
>gyms are the same way except you cannot leave at all until you defeat the gym leader
>rubberbanding xp system to discourage grinding
Have the game reset to the title screen if you white out and make Pokemon Centers only usable once until you visit a different one. And I guess you could have some route trainers randomly reset every once in a while.
I don't like the idea of dungeons blocking you from exiting until you complete them, it doesn't feel natural. I think it would work great for gyms tho, always felt weird you could go in and out however you liked lol.
Other things i'd add:
>have limits on the number of items you can use when in battle (so like a max of 3 for example, meaning that you can't boost your mons with X items and heal at the same time)
X-Item boosts(and probably boosts in general) should have a limited number of turns like in Legends.
>X-Item boosts(and probably boosts in general) should have a limited number of turns like in Legends.
i fear that's a change they would never do in the mainline games because it'd be far too big of a change for pvp
They would never make any of these changes because every corner needs thick padding so that poor little Toshio doesn't lose a battle and go back to playing phone games.
People never use boost moves or items. Overleveled starter is far from be a meme.
>The problem with resource scarcity in Pokemon is you can be in the middle of a dungeon with your whole team about to faint after defeating a bunch of trainers and click dig/fly/teleport or just walk to a pokemon center and heal for free and get right back to where you were with a fully restored team in like 2 minutes.
That still comes with the cost of having to redo all your progress through the dungeon batting trainer battles. That's opportunity and time costs. This is comon as heck in RPGs. Pokemon is still meant to be babies first RPG. Inn costs are too much of a dead end mechanic for kids to deal with.
Really its the ability to save anywhere that is more scrutenous.
>That still comes with the cost of having to redo all your progress through the dungeon batting trainer battles
This never happens anon. Even in games where you can rematch trainers, you are not forced to when you enter their line of sight
I meant discounting trainer costs. Not that you would have to do them again, obviously.
Blessed post
Pokémon is an RPG. If you're making a memehack where players have no realistic chance of getting through an encounter without a specific team composition and knowing what's coming ahead of time and planning how to counter it turn-by-turn, you're not designing an RPG anymore, you've turned it into a shitty puzzle game.
Only bullshit is perma weather/terrain. Soon as you get dual screens or veil whole game turn into setup + sweep.
Weather/terrain is fine as a gimmick, as long as it's a gimmick and not leveraged as an engine to frick your face with.
>Every battle is a puzzle in some way.
The puzzle is "hit this Pokémon super-effectively" which has many possible solutions. A battle where you need a very specific team composition and strategy to have any realistic chance at winning is a puzzle in a very different very real sense.
Pokémon encourages the player to be a generalist, you should be ready for anything (within reason) with a team that has type diversity and an effective mix of physical and special attackers and walls.
In the course of normal gameplay you face challenging trainers like Gym Leaders where you are expected to adjust your team to meet them, but in these cases you're given the knowledge of what Type they specialize in to inform your decision. Other challenging fights like Team Leaders and the Elite Four + Champion are once again generalist tests to see if you have a diverse team capable of answering many different threats.
A game where ordinary trainers can be severe obstacles that are almost impossible to prepare for and extremely punishing if left unanswered goes completely against this philosophy. Instead of testing your ability to build a solid team, it's a knowledge check that you can only satisfy by losing to it or reading the documentation and figuring out the one solution to the puzzle ahead of time. You are playing a fundamentally different game than Pokémon, but of course it's still built on Pokémon so even if you do everything right you can still simply get unlucky and lose anyway. Great design!
>Pokémon encourages the player to be a generalist
The official games don't really encourage anything, you can solo each of them with just a single Pokemon. And that's why hacks often try to change that up a bit, to make the player actually interact with the game's mechanics.
You're confusing "encourage" with "require"
People playing the game normally using six Pokémon and not setting up to +6 on every fight can still enjoy it and find some decent challenge in it, without having their balls busted or running into any roadblocks where the game decides "catch this specific Pokémon and use it or you lose"
What I found in my recent Platinum playthrough after mostly playing newer games the last couple years:
>OHKO's are extremely common for both sides
>there is not enough XP to keep up with more than 2 or 3 pokemon without grinding
>you will often be slightly underleveled if you are using 3 or 4 pokemon, especially later in the game
>bosses often have fully evolved pokemon before you, giving them a huge statistical advantage you have to overcome with items and a bigger team
>Speed is insanely overpowered and will win the game for you
>FRICK FANTINA FRICK THAT STUPID b***h
Overall, not an especially difficult game (EXCEPT THAT b***h FANTINA) but definitely designed to be challenging for its target demographic.
That never happen, it might have a Mon that solve most of battle like storm drain against rain team but even main game throw that kind of thing.
Digglet cave is next to surge gym for fricks sake.
The game never really encourages it either. Starters have higher stats than the average Pokemon, and you can really snowball the games by just using your first in line for the entire game. Barring an extreme type disadvantage, the game never pushes you toward catching anything else.
Consider that hacks and official games are made for two entirely different audiences- official games need to be designed under the idea that any given person may be playing it as their first Pokemon game, if not their first video game entirely. Rom hacks are made by and for people who have played Pokemon before and are either experienced with how the game works, or are looking for an additional challenge.
I still don't see a problem in pushing the player toward catching a specific counter to a roadblock or adopting a new strategy. Unless the game expects you to also EV grind that Pokemon or if it's on the opposite side of the world map. This has even been a concept in the anime, where Ash goes out of his way to get a Haunter in order to have a chance against Sabrina.
>People playing the game normally using six Pokémon and not setting up to +6 on every fight can still enjoy it and find some decent challenge in it
Not really? What's the consequence for taking a hit from a super effective move or even fainting when another one of your backups will be able to counter it because the trainers barely have strategies? Just stockpile in items that you'll easily have the money to afford, or just walk back and heal for free if you're close enough to a Pokemon Centre. What challenge is there to be had in this?
None. Pokémon only works as a challenge when you add stipulations
Every battle is a puzzle in some way. It's a monster collecting game, why shouldn't the player be encouraged to collect different monsters to overcome an obstacle? Is it really role playing if you catch the first 6 Pokemon you run into and use nothing else?
Its same kind of people that complain about smt demons.
You're replying to a scrub, they want to "feel" like they're being challenged but don't actually want to be challenged, anything that actually walls them sends them into rage and cope fits that manifest into putting quotations around difficulty and making large rants about "bad game design" and "artificial difficulty", because if they can't deal with something it's obviously that something's fault, so they join other scrubs in platforms like reddit or Ganker and make big threads about it where the scrubs pat each other in the back over anything they can't handle not being "real difficulty".
These dudes literally play games under imaginary rules of "fairness" that only exists in their own minds, so they're not actually ready for real challenge at all, they'll always cope like that.
>they want to "feel" like they're being challenged but don't actually want to be challenged
Untrue, but there is literally nothing wrong with this.
There is when you want to whine about actually difficult things and pretend your made-up ideas of fairness are the limits of difficulty a developer can put into his game, especially games or mods meant to be challenging for those who enjoy that.
If an obstacle merely requires you to try slightly harder to get through it with no fuss, that is not really a significant level of challenge, but to people like that it's the epitome of difficulty, of "good game design". Merely having to do a little bit better to get past something cannot be called a challenge, it is ego stroking at best.
An actual difficult challenge will feel completely insurmountable to you at first contact, you will be unequipped to get through it and it will feel hopeless, you'll realize you are absolutely terrible at the video game despite your previous comfort in easier content. And after you acquire the skill and knowledge and practice and eventually overcome it, you'll come out the other side a better player, having learned something new and increased your level of play by being forced out of your comfort zone.
But when you're a scrub, as soon as you take one tiny step outside your comfort zone, outside your ideas of "fairness", you lose your shit and start blaming the game and coping, because it dared to actually challenge you in a way that you currently (and will never, with that attitude) have the answer for.
It's also ok to not enjoy challenging games, not everyone plays games for that. But the "fake difficulty"/"bad game design" cope thrown at anything that's actually difficult gets very annoying.
>currently don't have the answer for*
And yes, level caps and level scaling or whatever other tool a dev may use to limit you are there specifically so that you don't have an easy answer in overleveling. It wouldn't be a challenge if you did.
Except overleveling is a time sink. If you want a more organic chalenge, instead nacro the game better instead of taking me out of the experience with a system that punushes me fir beating enemies lol.
Pokemon also had ghe disobey function for punishing overleveling. Make it apply to low frienship mons if you want
>There is when you want to whine about actually difficult things and pretend your made-up ideas of fairness are the limits of difficulty a developer can put into his game,
Shit you are making up. Games are the experience they create for the player before anything else.
Your warped ideas are what is arbitraty.
If you have a fetish for trying ti turn Pokemon into a comp sim, thats fine, but that doesn't make it "real difficulty" by comparison.
fpwp
Fpbp
Yeah like why even have a level system if you're just going to invalidate it?
I guess GF doesn't know how to design games because parts of their game use it
You guessed right.
>dismissing something as broad as level scaling immediately without looking at how it was implemented and how it factors into the entire game
instant sign of a moron who doesn't know how to evaluate a game
There’s no such thing as implementing level scaling well just like there’s no such thing as implementing random encounters well.
fpwp
Level scaling is fine for a rival. You should not be rewarded excessively for grinding.
The smart solution would be to prevent excessive grinding in the first place, not put in moronic scaling.
Players WILL sit and waste their time grinding to absurd levels if you allow them the ability to gain any experience at all, especially with speed up on emulators.
> if you allow them the ability to gain any experience at all
Then don’t allow them to gain any experience at all. Sounds simple to me.
Congrats moron, you just learned about a way you can have a balanced fight without moronicly scaling levels!
Not an argument.
>You literally just described [thing that's a good solution and not level scaling], anon
Yeah? And?
>hurff durr you can't critically think
>still hasn't remotely given a good reason to ever put level scaling in a game
sure moron
You literally just described a level cap, anon.
>Congrats moron, you just learned about a way you can have a balanced fight without moronicly scaling levels!
You are a human ering playing against an A.I., moron. Balance isn't being on the same level even discounting that.
This is why in FE, you are always meant to be out numbered.
This is also why gym leaders are usually a couple of levels above where you'll be if you don't grind, and why they get fully-evolved aces.
what, like with a level cap?
so you end up at the same level as the dude you're fighting anyway?
think before you post.
I don't know if you morons know this, but "leveling up" in games is a trait from tabletop RPGs. If you are working with a competent DM, you are dealing with level scaling. Levels still track your growth and open up new abilities. Some level scaling is absolutely not indicative of bad game design in and of itself.
Those posters can only think in binary good and bad terms, and they attach themselves to buzzwords and labels because that doesn't require any critical thinking. I can only hope none of them ever complained about HGSS's "level curve" issue, they'd be shocked if they heard what the easiest solution to that was. A certain Crystal rom hack recently did it, and I doubt those posters would even realize that it used scaling to do it if they played it, it'd just feel natural, like good scaling does.
>If you are working with a competent DM, you are dealing with level scaling
[citation needed]
Have you ever wondered why they're called levels? It's because a "level 1" character is strong enough to handle threats on the first floor of the dungeon, a "level 2" character can handle threats on the second floor, and so on. It is expressly not scaled.
nice bait
Fpbp
>Brendan
>Viridian Forest
What shitty romhack is this?
skill issues
FPmaybeP?
the short bus is filling up quick huh
how utterly stupid do you have to be to think level scaling invalidates a leveling system?
>how utterly stupid do you have to be to think removing the point of levels invalidates levels?
what exactly is the point of levels to you?
He needs big levels so he can win by clicking A repeatedly
yeah that's what it looks like from
tip: the point of leveling is to unlock new moves and to be able to form new movesets with new strategies. if you wanna unlock cool late game moves earlier to apply these strategies earlier it's good to have level scaling so the game doesn't become too easy (read: unfun).
>Better question, when did overleveling become so taboo?
my God you really DO want to level up until you are strong enough to just press A to win don't you? makes sense you hate level scaling
Differences in relative power. Otherwise you might as well just fix stats. Arguably makes the game more unbalanced because you don't even have a stat vs moveset differential for gaining power. Better question, when did overleveling become so taboo? I remember it used to be normal to grind up to an optimal strength in rpgs; when did this whole parity fetish come into play?
Blame comphomosexualry
Grind always been considered a cheese strat on any game, it either mean you dont understand mechanics or don't care about game.
Has it? I swear to god in the 2000s rpggays used to grind as a matter of course. Maybe I just wasn't near the hardcores.
So what? Grinding is never the most optimal strat unless you remove your time from the equation. The fact it exists as a fallback is ehat makes variable team compositions permissible. Without it, you are funneled way more into having "correct" vs "incorrect" ways of ovetcoming enemies as opposed to being able to use different kinds of strategies instead.
Any decent RPG have something to punish grind or prevent excessive one. Spamming A with overleveled starter have zero punishment.
>what exactly is the point of levels to you?
To be an indicator of how strong a Pokemon is.
>tip: the point of leveling is to unlock new moves
Wow then it sure is weird that my lv1 Impidimp is able to have Play Rough and Dark Pulse then.
It does. It turns it from a form of progression into an arbitrary benchmark.
In some games, some form of svaling is needed, but in most, the scali g should come from how unfun and time consuming it is to grind without progressing forward into the game.
Level scaling actually adds value to open world slop. Fixes problems caused by neglecting older content, etc.
For a real curated adventure like the main story in a pokemon game though, you're right.
Why dont people just apply the Black and White EXP scaling? if you become overlevelled the EXP gain you get is significantly lower, thats it, thats all you need
Easily bypassed by emulator speed-up.
BW barely reduces your EXP after the opponent level, and whatever it does can more than be countered by increasing game speed.
>game shouldn't be designed around emulation
Software emulation is how 99% of players experience rom hacks, and most people don't consider it cheating. You have to take that into account if you are trying to make a challenging rom hack.
Just do a jail thing like in clover to all the speed up users.
>Easily bypassed by emulator speed-up.
Might as well not even bother playing the games because they're all easily bypassed with emulator cheats.
It is what it is. Other than speed-ups, there are save states with emulators, that's something a ton of people consider cheating though so they're less likely to do it. Same for save editing, unless it's something youtubers said is le good like hacking rare candies. Level caps deal nicely with that too, it makes the game rare candy cheat proof.
That's too harsh. Like I said most people don't consider speed-up cheating, it is the "saving time" meme except played completely straight and literally. Doing it for rare candy cheats is hilarious though and very worth it, youtubers get the rope.
Time is the cost for grinding past the point where you're supposed to be.
>when i cheat it's fine but when other people cheat they deserve to have their file deleted
>Easily bypassed by emulator speed-up.
Fatherless behavior.
They should just make training work like weight training in real life so that nobody can become overleveled. If you're not going against something at least 70% of your total level you don't get any experience.
what about you guys stop using normalgay pokemon? we shitmon chads don't deserve to suffer because you are unable to box your starter
Bot poster? You and I have no reason to be talking to each other, I didn't say anything about shitmons.
you're saying a level cap would be good because you're a normalgay who only uses strong pokemon
Are you seriously defending grinding over balancing?
Yes, I like using weak pokemon
That has nothing to do with what's being talked about.
I like using weak pokemon = level caps suck = because I can't use weak pokemon = because a lvl 20 strong pokemon will beat a lvl 20 weak pokemon = get it Black person?
I want you to try using this """"""""""""argument"""""""""""" with any other video game that's ever existed just to see you get laughed out of the room harder than your skull was slammed as an infant.
Using objectively bad strategies (picking shit pokemon) is not a reason to justify bypassing difficulty (by grinding).
Most JRPG's don't have hard level caps. They often use rubberbanding XP formulas, but that will still let you level up quite a bit more than you're "supposed" to if you really want to.
In fact, I can't name ANY games with hard level caps, except for Pokemon fangames and romhacks, which are made by autists who genuinely do not understand the game design behind the typical JRPG gameplay loop.
But they're the same fricking thing. They both have the same purpose, to make you actually engage with the game. Most games use rubberbanding because it's easier: you don't have to set certain breakpoints at every hard fight.
Romhacks use hard caps because every emulator has a x9 speed already built into it and it takes less mental effort to grind wild pokemon at max speed in grass for 2 hours (13 minutes) than to actually engage with the game. So most people would rather do that.
The side effect of hard caps is that turbo autists (like you, Black person) can't beat the game through sheer moronism alone because of some "pride" for NOT using effective strategies.
You know that having a party of pokemon that are all the same level is not normal, right?
I literally don't know what this has to do with my post and I think you replied in the wrong thread.
Pokemon level at different rates. This is an integral part of species balance. Applying a blanket level cap to every species belies a complete misunderstanding of how the game is designed.
Also games shouldn't be designed to be played at x9 speed in an emulator.
>integral part of species balance
don't kid yourself. The rates at the levels you're playing in the game mean the difference is max 4-6 levels between a fast and slow xp group.
If they really wanted to appease your autistic screeching they could just cap total xp earned instead of level. But they won't because nobody cares. Not even you, this is a fake argument because you're gasping at straws.
>Games shouldn't be designed to be played at x9 speed in an emulator
Obviously, that's why the hacks are designed to disincentive doing it.
>The rates at the levels you're playing in the game mean the difference is max 4-6 levels between a fast and slow xp group.
If 4-6 levels is trivial then surely rubberbanding is better than a hardcap, you moron.
Nta but I tried to use a Dratini in a 6 party playthrough of Gold and the xp rate made it completely useless and it required NONSTOP babying
FFXIII technically, it doesn't do levels but it does only let you develop the Crystarium to a certain point for each chapter, but that is hardly a point in the favor of hard level caps considering you know, FFXIII.
The only rpg games that had level scaling are widely considered to either be black sheep or bad games.
Ff8 is the most unpopular FF for a reason.
the weak pokemon should instead be buffed
level scaling to some extent would be good for the game, especially if you missed a gym with level 12 mons and didn't go back to it until your mons were at level 40 or so. the AI would be much more likely to put up a fight if their levels could scale up to the players
>the weak pokemon should instead be buffed
some pokemon are supposed to be bad
if kricketune weren't a shitmon it would be overpowered because that shit evolves at level 10
>some pokemon are supposed to be bad
this isn't a good thing
no pokemon should EVER be bad on purpose
wrong
no pokemon should ever be USELESS on purpose
bad pokemon like kricketune and butterfree have a clear niche as early game powerhouses that fall off in the mid game
Thats a shit niche because the early game for both gen 1 and gen 4 are three gyms where bug types are fricking awful
Kricketune more than pulled its weight on my early game Platinum team.
Brock has no STAB moves and Butterfree gets Confusion.
>kricketune and butterfree have a clear niche as early game powerhouses that fall off in the mid game
Kricketune and Butterfree SHOULDN'T fall off mid game. not saying the game has to hand you a broken sweeper before the first gym but mons like those should have more going for them so that the player is more inclined to keep them in spite of growing options towards the end of the game
I don't know about Kricketune, but Butterfree is still plenty good towards the end of the game, thanks to its spore moves and psychic coverage
>thanks to its spore moves and psychic coverage
it still gets mogged by almost anything with quiver dance. butterfree is pretty much obselete when masquerain has the same typing but also gets intimidate, baton pass, ice type moves, etc. venomoth tinted lens which makes butterfree obselete there and it also has the poison type so not only is it immune to poison status but this is definitely a better defensive typing than bug/flying. i don't even need to say anything about volcarona
this sounds like a fair point i will admit
of course, with power creep Butterfree got worse, but in the first three generations it was still plenty good for the story
>butterfree is bad because compshit
In-game/comp-play.
Butterfree isnt competing with Masquerain in gen 3. But even if we pretend, you get Surskit way later in thr game and its also much rarer by comparison to where you get Caterpie and Butterfree in Gen 1 or evem the remakes.
Butterfree has access to compound eyes sleep powder and rage powder, it’s not totally useless. You could use it last gen effectively but Amoongus is too strong to bring it back this gen
Butterfree at least levels up relatively quickly so it doesn't hog XP the way a pseudo does. Gible is a total shitmon until it evolves, and Gabite is Butterfree-tier until you get to the 8th gym, and they level up slow as hell because you get Garchomp as a reward for dealing with that shit.
Way to prove this is just ideological nonsense.
Pokemonnis a gamr where you jave anywhere from over 90 to over 200 evolution lines as potential party members. Expecting them to be designed to be scale equally for all points innthr game not only is unrealistic, but isnt even a goof thing and limits the window many pokemon get to shine in.
Onix is shit but is memorable as Brock's powerful ace of a wall whilr allowing the player to feel like a badass when they are easily disposed of later in the game.
Early bug mons like Buttery and Kricketune teach thr player the volution system while still having some kind of utility even after they fall off thanks to utility moves anf the ability to learn field moves, andndo so while having very low EXP requirements so they arent hogging all your EXP.
By comparison, early game mons like Ralts require roughly double the EXP to level up for when you catch it while also having no offensive moves when you get it, but with the reward of a powerful psychic type of you invest into it.
Worst fricking take ever, there are people in the game industry right now with opinions this stupid
What's wrong with that opinion? Every Pokemon should have at least one situation where it's useful. Even if that niche is small and short-lived like with regional bugs.
Useful is different to making every pokemon good.
I can use something like volbeat in my team and it will be useful one way or another, EVEN in a competitive battle and even if there are clearly better alternatives. That anon just wants every pokemon to be on the same level or have equal bst
>That anon just wants every pokemon to be on the same level or have equal bst
yes and? how is that a bad thing?
What's the point of having different Pokemon if they all have the same stats?
same BST != all stats are the same
there are many different spreads you can have with the same BST
There's only so many ways to allocate stats when everything has the same limit.
you can still have things like fast frail attackers or slow bulky pokemon so not really
>actually defending the idea of a single fixed BST for all mons
not sure how it's possible for someone to misunderstand the game mechanics this much
you ever notice how some pokemon with a high BST are bad and some with a low BST are good?
i never said equal BST alone automatically fixed all the issues, but i think it would certainly go a long ways for some mons. Delcatty for example has a great movepool but shit stats. increasing it's stats is pretty much all it needs
>some with a low BST are good?
only if it has one of the most broken abilities or moves in the game like Sketch, Wonder Gaurd or Unaware
Delcatty was designed for Contests.
i don't see why itcan't be designed to both battle and do contests
Because the teo are incompatible systems. Contests require things like natures and movesets be set up radically different than for battle.
This mentality is the issue eith you people. You have a rigid idea of what is valid way to play the game and by extrntion ehat is a valid purpose for a Pokemon's existence.
Serene's Forest woulf laugh at you people so hard.
>everything should be functionally the same
Even in fr games theres a meta and purposely bad characters. Also take your own advice and also have a nice day for being a hypocritical c**t
You're actually dumb. Pokemon are RPG enemies first and formost. Pokemon scale with progress innthe game because they need to serve the fuction of enemies, not just party members.
Thisis the poblem with conpshitters who treat Single Player RPG like a bad fighting game.
it's okay for NFEs to have lower BSTs of course if that's the role they need to fill but there is no reason that a fully evolved pokemon should have BSTs unless it's super gimmicky shit like smeargle or shedinja that would be way to broken with higher stats
Thanks for readong lines out of your bible but thats simply untrue. With the way you outline things, its impossible to create specific types of chalenges and encounters or experiences eith Pokemon designed around certain points in the game.
The exchange or tradr off of early game pokemon vs late game pokrmon for team composition also goes out the windowm
Gen 1 for example has the choice between Pidgeot, Fearow and Dodrio, eith Dodrio being stronger at thr cost of lower avalibility over the course of the game.
Shit like this cant exist when you insist ever mon needs to be designes around compshit like its a Fighting game rather than units in an RPG.
Grinding is how you make weak pokemon work you moron. Why do you think there are multiple XP groups?
grinding is the fix for pokemon's poor balancing
>level scaling
>balancing
The most moronic take I have ever seen in this website
Yes.
That's how it works for literally every single other jrpg that isn't pokemon. Quit playing mental gymnastics for a kids game that just requires you to press the a button.
Don't lump us real shitmonchads with scrubs like you that need to overlevel as a crutch to beat a single player game.
Clover is unbeatable if your team is only shitmons because they expect you to use at least one of the reddit starters
Why do romhack developers pretend that XP groups don't exist?
you shouldnt be allowed to grind. Play the game right or suck a dick
level caps is the dev forcing the player to play in the way they approve of. and i shouldn't have to tell you why forcing a playstyle onto people in a fricking pokemon game is a bad idea.
Oneshotting everything is not a playstyle
you don't have to like it but it's a playstyle
my baton pass team begs to differ
It objectively is.
It OBJECTIVELY is whether you or I like it or not, compshitter.
>Wtf devs, why can't I catch a garchomp on route 1? You are forcing me to play the way you approve of using your preselected earlygame pokemon!
you could say that about any mechanic that adds challenging inherently via some kind of restriction
>forcing the player to play in the way the devs approve of
Congrats, you just learned how game design works.
level caps are exclusively used by tryhard devs who want their hack to be super hardcore and difficult. it's the same type who will copy all their sets from smogon and nerf or outright remove cheese strats.
nobody who isn't a massive pissbaby cares about people playing their hack "wrong".
No, difficulty hacks are designed to be difficult?
What do you mean Final Fantasy Hardtype hacks are hard? this is news to me....
>copy all their sets from smogon
Are there really hacks that do this?
damn near every hack does this
But why? Surely they know that Smogon sets are optimized for a specific environment.
>Surely they know that Smogon sets are optimized for a specific environment.
but that's the thing: they don't
Yes and no, lazy ones just copypaste stuff, even radical red put lot of gimmicky sets to frick you over.
>who want their hack to be super hardcore and difficul
Yeah that's the point? You can just not play it. What's much worse in Radical Red is that you can see the AI clearly cheats sometimes.
>You can just not play it.
and i don't
So why be pissed?
AI playing on your action rather than start of turn is actual feature from main games,RR just make blant as shit.
everyone in this thread needs to have gay sex RIGHT NOW.
>MUH SMT
pokemon is a game where you do things because they are fun
forcing someone to do something, even if they were going to do it anyway, makes it less fun.
Games are all about forcing you to do something. That's why we (used to) have forced trainer battles.
what i'm saying is that pokemon is not a game that you should play optimally, because it gets very boring very fast, and games that expect you to play optimally are not fun.
>games that expect you to play optimally are not fun
Filtered by Doom Eternal?
>zoom eternal out of nowhere
Eternal is the worst mainline doom by a fair margin. Admittedly still decent
It was less fun than 2016
I knew it.
lmao how the frick did you hit the nail that accurately
Eternal is one of the biggest scrub filters I've ever seen, you love to see it
This is literally the opposite of what people consider fun. You have to be constrained to certain limits in any video game.
You are half correct. Being forced to do things with extreme variety of options is fun.
here’s a more interesting first rival battle
>bounce instead of acrobatics
surprised you didn’t criticize the clobbopus being there instead of anything else
what is this a hack of? what's unusual about Clobbopus compared to the other mons?
clobbopus fricking sucks
those are EVs, obviously
>clobbopus fricking sucks
that is expected of NFEs no?
>almost 10 hours later
>no one pointed out anything unusual except for bounce
dead thread
why do all the stats look roughly the same? or are those EVs? i checked what level 29 gligar an IV of 20 on all stats would look like and it looks nothing like pic related
>lvl 29
>very much still the early game
>move tutor exclusive moves presumably at a point where the move tutor is unavailable to you
>e.g. thunder punch
>multiple TM moves for TMs that you presumably have no access to
>e.g. steel wing, u-turn etc.
>multiple egg moves for mons that have presumably not been bred
>e.g night slash, sucker punch, etc.
>probably not even at a point in the game where breeding is even available to you
>illegal moves
>e.g. poison sweep on clobbopus
>flattened stats across the board unbeholden to IVs(probably pumped with a bajillion EVs)
romhackers are such fricking hacks. stop using pokemon showdown for your dumbass movesets and consult serebii for what's realistic.
>probably pumped with a bajillion EVs
this is the most obnoxious one. they'll pump new additions to your rival's team with more EVs than your entire team combined. it's genuine brainrot.
There is a low grind mode that disable EVs tho. Isn't that hard if you have few couple of evos or look for decent Mons around.
I find weird how nobody complain about rocket scenario in cerulean cave.
>unburden flying gem hawlucha in a rival battle
this is evil
to be fair this is after the third gym
and it’s not acrobatics yet
and her hawlucha is the only fully evolved pokemon on her team
but I appreciate you being considerably better than most of the easily filtered mouth breathers in this thread whining about muh difficulty the moment they see something that isn’t a level up move
seeing as the only thing you complained about was just an already fast pokemon using the strategy that made it viable (unburden + quickly expendable item)
i don't think strong movesets are a problem in themselves if the player is also given access to comparable movesets (not necessarily the same ones) OR if it's only one pokemon on a team that's like that (in the same way early gym leaders usually have one fully-evolved mon that's broken for that stage of the game)
i just think flying gem + unburden is pretty crazy for a mid-game battle
> the strategy that made it viable
it is insane to claim that hawlucha isn't viable without unburden
did you play USUM?
anon... don't tell me you're one of those guys who thinks romhacks should use smogon sets...
>don't think strong movesets are a problem in themselves if the player is also given access to comparable movesets
And this is how you get powercreep and turn your game into lasertag.
>The only thing romhackers know how to do for rival battles is hyper offense teams
absolutely creatively bankrupt.
Enemy and non-gym leader pokemon should only use level up moves instead of smogon tier movesets
Treecko doesn't learn shit like drain/power-up punch normally
If they wanna hack shit in for arbitrary "difficulty" then might as well make those pokemons have 600 BST and permanent wonder guard
Difficulty romhacks were and will forever be a mistake
>player's rival
>should only use braindead level-up sets
That makes no sense. A proper rival will have teams similar to what a good player will have at that stage in the game, that's the proper execution of a rival concept regardless of how the lowest common denominator pandering shitty vanilla games do it.
A rival needs to be a yardstick that shows you if you are lagging behind the intended curve of the game at any point.
You just know difficultygays ITT will defend having to face zygarde in the 2nd gym and not see how absurd it is since they keep circlejerking themselves and praising made-up difficulties.
>made-up difficulties.
Video games are made-up.
>the dev forcing the player to play in the way they approve of
That is literally what game development is. I'm not being hyperbolic, when you make a game you are literally designing a ruleset and everything about it, you are putting limits everywhere, you are designing an experience and you control what players can and cannot do. Level caps is one of a hundred, thousand different ways a game can and does limit you into the intended experience.
Your take is unicellular organism levels of stupid and something I'd expect out of a Youtube comment at best.
Forgot the (You)
There you go.
"mad because bad" is the ultimate cope
>your lotad with pound and water gun can't beat my smogon set mons? skill issue lol
you are aware that difficulty hacks give you far more interesting options than your average pokemon game right
like youre not gonna tell me SV is more interesting because everything is locked to tackle for 15 levels
Yeah it throw lot of utility and control moves on early game, ice wind, screens mystic fire etc.
Even late game those things are stupid useful.
vomiting the entire national dex at the player on the first route is also not good game design
necrobumped waifugay generals won’t kill this thread
meditite:
>fake out is an egg move
>bullet punch is an egg move
corphish:
>aqua jet is an egg move
numel:
>ancient power is an egg move
treecko:
>can only get power-up punch in gen 6 specifically(no longer legal as of gen 8)
>drain punch is a TM exclusive that you obviously won't have access to at that point in the game
What the actual frick is wrong with these "people"?
>Egg move bad even though the player can do the same shit
this is in viridian forest. these are stage 1 mons presumably very early in the game. they all have rock tomb. it's the TM you get for beating brock. this tells us that this battle takes place immediately after brock's gym. you don't get access to breeding in kanto until you can get to the sevii islands. context clues, moron-kun; use them. the player at this point in the game CAN'T do the same shit. dumb frick.
Yeah, they can, easily, moron
>1st rival battle
>player would have access to breeding by this point
????
Dex navi.
dexnav gives you random garbage. you'd be sitting there for hours trying to get a well IV'd adamant huge power meditite with exactly fake out + bullet punch if you didn't have speed up. may as well just make all your rival's mons shinys at that point.
Dexnavi bump Mon quality every 10 chain or so, annoying but no need for perfect 31 IVs, also centers change natures for free.
bait used to be believable. unfortunate.
that corphish is nasty
what romhack is that?
>radical red hardcore mode is hard
>nooooooo i can't use my favorite shitmons and grind excessively for everything on the hardest difficulty
whoa morons
if you can't use your favorite shitmons in a pokemon game, it's a bad game.
Lot of shitmons got buffed, hardly an issue.
i think you're just bad at the game
Level scaling is why Oblivion is a mess.
>game give multiple approaches that don't involve grinding like a moron.
>somehow this is a bad thing
Always entertaining to see RR filter /vp/ casuals that can't adapt
see
and difficultygay ruins another thread
I tried playing Emerald ROWE, the open world game with pokemon always set to max level cap and 6 pokemon and it was just "go build a team to counter this specifically" and then you're stuck grinding pokemon for moves and don't feel attached to anything.
It's just not pokemon.
I'd rather have tons of battle items I use to support the mons I like than having to switch my mons out for others.
I want difficulty to be getting whittled down by a series of trainers in a gauntlet where I don't know if I'll make it to the end, not having to play pokemon showdown matches over and over with minmaxed strats
pokespergs are incapable of feeling attachment to their mons. they're missing out on a fundamental aspect of the game, which is why they can never create a good romhack.
>play romhack with level scaling
>go through entire game with level 2 mons freshly caught from route 1
That's how people deal with the pokemon battle pet minigame in world of warcraft. Just shuffle in level 1 critters and things just fall over.
Broke:
Level Scaling and just level scaling for everything.
Woke:
Unique teams depending on how many badges for bosses along with making it so the lowest level Pokemon is 5 levels ahead of your own at least.
I'm sure you know but those are two different implementations of level scaling.
I'm pretty sure the idea of gym leaders using teams based on the challenger's gym badge count is canon somewhere, maybe in the anime, or one of those animation one-offs they released, I'm pretty sure I saw that somewhere. It'd have made SV so much better if it did that.