>Blatantly overpowered and overcentralizing
>Top used mon in OU for 4 fricking generations in a row
>Always 50-60% usage rate, huge gap between it and the second place as well
>Question this
>"ACKSHUALLY"
> No real reason given other than "hurr the entire meta artificially revolves around it, if we ban it too many things would change durr"
>Dismissed by the switchtard council, showdown playerbase eats it up
Smogon is a mental illness.
Ape Out Shirt $21.68 |
didn't care didn't read
Eat shit smogontard
>Shitmon used ice beam!
Ice beam kills Rayquaza too you moron
You forgot the part where Lando outspeeds and U-turns
Use a Pokemon faster than Lando, then.
Lando isn't exactly blisteringly fast, you know.
91 base speed is downright subpar for OU.
>yeah bro Lando outspeeds Weavile trust me
what did anon mean by this
4. or 5 if I'm nice
>Assuming you always happen to have a mon with Ice Beam on the field
>If none of the mons you have on the field are out you either have to sacrifice a mon to bring that mon with Ice Beam out or risk losing it to LO/CB Earthquake/Stone Edge by switching it in
I don't think I've ever seen Life Orb Lando-T
If only seen one or two but usually it's Choice Scarf, Choice Band or Focus Sash
Leftovers is far and away the most popular item on Lando, and then Rocky Helmet. Nobody uses Sash lead Lando anymore, Bando Lando is strong but was always pretty uncommon, and Scarf has dropped off hard compared to other gens.
Yeah leftovers is definitely the most common, forgot about that one kek
Real talk, SS is a shitty OU because they banned basically all the new mons except bulky offense (Corviknight, Slowking-G, Urshifu-RS) or HO (Dragapult, Regieleki). They banned something like 20% of the new mons and 20% of the mons from Gen VII OU that got buffed.
Hard to justify it as a meta when it's got less diversity than Gen VII or natdex. Is this why everyone moved back to Gen IV?
>thwarted by any ice move user or bulky water especially now since Z-Fly isn't a thing
>walled by corv/skarm
>walled by Ferro/Tangrowth aside from shitty gimmick sets
Seems pretty counterable to me. You're confusing "it's used often because it has many options to patch holes on a team" with "it's used often because it's literally unstoppable"
>SS is a shitty OU because they banned basically all the new mons except bulky offense (Corviknight, Slowking-G, Urshifu-RS) or HO (Dragapult, Regieleki)
Dracovish and G-Darm are HO you moron.
What exactly did they ban other than G-Darm, Dracovish, Cinderace and Spectrier?
Urshifu single strike, Kyurem, Magearna.
That's only 1 new mon
Both Kyurem and magearna were perfectly legal in gen 7 OU, They both got a buff in gen 8 which put them over the edge for some. I personally think Kyurem could've stayed.
> I personally think Kyurem could've stayed.
The main theme of whoever is playing Gen VIII OU is they hate RNG and they hate mispredicting. Kyurem was guilty of both.
This is also why King's Rock was banned, and why Smogon is trying to institute a freeze ban.
Freeze is an issue now because of Freeze Dry being spammable due to the wider distribution it got in Gen VIII. Scald is also being looked at for a potential ban.
If the SWSH meta ever continued on we might see Weavile get banned as well. This is the absolute state of fanfic.
honestly thank god we forced them to freeze the tiers with HitmonGOAT otherwise they would have suspect Weavile even though it's perfectly fine
You can't switch on this thing
The only thing that video proved is that Finch got outplayed for playing like a cookie cutter shitter.
The other guy won because he knew Finch just LOVES his Landorus-T so much that he would lead with it and refuse to sacrifice it when faced with Kyurem. It's downright comical.
He got outplayed every turn.
Smogon's stated goal is to ensure that the best player wins as often as possible.
In that battle, the best player won.
The system was, in a rare instance, working how they wanted it to, and they broke it.
>Banning RNG from Pokemon.
Literally impossible. In this situation Smogongays can start playing chess or dunno, Tic-Tac-Toe. The entire fricking battle system of Pokemon is build upon RNG rolls after RNG rolls after RNG rolls. It's a nature of the game.
yeah it's part of what makes it interesting, risk vs consistency
people hate Stall because they completely negate this aside from "oooohhh will I land Toxic"
Comments like this make me realize how stupid and clueless most people are about competitive.
Playing stall makes you more vulnerable to RNG. More turns = higher chance for RNG to come in to effect.
No it doesn't. Stall teams are built to play around crits by default, which is the most devastating effect of RNG generally. With a regular team you can lose to 1 random crit or unfortunate 10% proc, while stall teams thrive in that your opponent will have to land multiple of these in a short period of time to break your core
Not true at all one badly timed crit can break a stall team.
>you can only beat stall if you crit 4 times in a row!!!!
>if everyone uses lando that means its broken!!!
see how stupid these takes are?
>he thinks stall isn't the most reliable way to get to high ladder
moron
>I can’t beat stall so it must be the best play style!!!!
Most reliable way to climb is with HO but you’re a low Elo bottom feeder with 0 knowledge of how the meta works
>I can’t beat stall so it must be the best play style!!!!
every post is projection
>Most reliable way to climb is with HO
holy moron
>no you, moron!!!
Yeah get shit on. You got rekt. Time to take my dub and leave the thread.
HO is the best way to get to high ladder. Ladder climbing just requires you to win more often than you lose, and HO is great for that because it means you can do a ton of battles in quick succession.
This is why HO suddenly becomes popular when there's a suspect test.
Stall is better for tournaments, where it's much harder or even impossible to recover from a loss.
Bulky offense is besto
lol not in Gen7+ with the stupid Critical Hit nerf anyway
playing stall definitely makes you less vulnerable to RNG than with a "regular" team, moron
Richard Garfield gave a lecture on MTG's game design and the balance of luck and skill. He explicitly pointed out that players who demand a mostly skillful game quit out of embarrassment when they realize they are being outplayed, because they are the beneficiaries of luck and have deluded themselves into thinking their "anticipation" is in fact skill.
Modern Smogon is crafting the rules to a meta that the council members can dominate while filtering out better players. Pushing the game to be more like chess is trying to relieve their anxieties in the worst way possible.
>Is this why everyone moved back to Gen IV?
When and where did this happen?
Landorus isn't even the best at any of its options, it's used because it has viability in multiple roles as a wildcard.
There's no sense in banning it when it's literally just a matter of git gud.
>G-darm banned because you had to guess which set it was running and if you called it wrong you lose
I think the smogon council is all just homosexuals in Lando T fursuits buttfricking each other
Except making a wrong guess about Lando-T didn't cost you the whole game because, again, it's NOT PARTICULARLY GREAT at any of its options.
I don't think that was the reason, band vs scarf and what move it was locked into was fairly easy.
The problem was the meme BD/sub set.
Also, virtually all the banned mons in Gen VIII shit on Lando, OU's glue, so it makes sense that they'd be banned.
>Doesn't realize Lando-T wasn't even confirmed to return when G-Darm was banned
Do you have memory loss anon?
>Landorus isn't even the best at any of its options
This doesn't matter the problem with landorus-therian is that it encompasses too many roles into a single slot which means you don't have to run said theoretically better at said niche because landorus not only brings that niche but fulfills a secondary role which is what allows it to flourish.
Landorus therian is great at every role it fills, if it wasn't it wouldn't be as widely used as it is, Incineroar has a lot of the same qualities that landorus does but is far inferior for numerous reasons. And landorus isn't even the worst example. That honor goes to snorlax in gen 2 with his 100% usage as well as being the best pokemon in the uber tier. And somehow that's allowed in OU.
Now try that again without meme arrow speak.
>Low elp moron
Landorus isn't banned because it's not over powering,:
It's too slow to beat any 100+ speed mon and choice users
Weak to ice which everyone runs coverage of regardless of Landorus's presence
Runs the risk of activating Defiant and getting the whole team wrecked. (130+1 attack with knock off/brave bird is nothing to shake off)
It can't hit anything that's in the air without stone edge but then it loses utility
No reliable recovery means it will probably die before the match is over
Ground attacks only mean it can't hurt anything in grassy terrain
Of you want something to ban, it should be Kartana as it becomes nearly impossible to counter in the late game and sweeps your entire team the second your flying bro gets under 40%. All while having good. At that poont it comes a guessing game if it's going to use leaf blade for your slowbro, Sacred sword for your steelmon or knock off just to be safe.
maybe if ice wasn't such a shit type. it's gamefreak's fault for making shitty ice types
Show me a single game where Lando was, without question, overpowered and over centralizing. I'll wait.
>Over centralizing
The fact that around half of the player base uses Landorus-T does show that it's over centralizing, Don't forget about the meta where clefable was on 60% of teams and using wish/teleport which people got sick of really quickly. Of course Clefable didn't get banned either because it's smogon's baby also the fact that 200 pokemon were coming which could help alleviate the problem but you need to understand that just because a pokemon isn't a world destroyer doesn't mean it's not overpowered. I'll even admit I don't think landorus-t is worth banning but some of the banned mons should genuinely come off the list. Specifically Kyurem, Dugtrio, Gothitelle and Cinderace. .
Lando isn't centralizing, centralizing is "I have to beat this Pokemon or lose, and I have to prep my team to counter it".
However, Lando is common, and that's a problem in and of itself.
This
When I think about "overcentralising" threats, I think about ghost calyrex, fishious rend spam or gen 2 snorlax, mons that make me look at most teams I build and go "oh, I really need something specifically hand picked so that I do not lose turn 0 to it"
I would hard time articulating the sentiment properly but most OU teams already have what they need to beat lendo naturally since things like strong ice beams, EQ immunities and hazard control are so wide-spread and usefull against non-lando teams.
>Arena Trap shilling
So that's your endgame?
>flashback to early DP times
>chomp is busy tearing OU a new butthole
>people ask for a ban
>a couple moron go "hurr durr, blissey has almost as much usage and nobody is asking for a ban, eh? hypocrites much?"
>people who actually play and understand the game laugh them out of the room
>flash forward 15 years
>people have forgot the lessons of the past
>usage obsessed morons are at it again
>will they win out this time and get the lando ban they're asking for?
>obviously not, duh
>The only objective metric of success Smogon uses for its tiering system is usage%
>But also things get banned independent of the tiering system because they just are
>>The only objective metric of success Smogon uses for its tiering system is usage%
>I mean, except for bans
They literally state that usage stats determine tiering and even have listed thresholds that determine when a mon gets bumped up. Meanwhile they ban whatever they want from whatever tiers they feel like regardless of usage and let gen 2 Snorlax and Lando-T stay in OU despite going well beyond the allowed usage stats. Between that and ex-council confirming the whole thing's a bias joke that colludes to ensure their personally preferred metas stay intact, fanfic's a fricking joke.
OU is the highest usage based. Ubers is a banlist (basically OUBL) that happens to be playable.
Lando-T isn't broken, its extremely versatile but easily checked/countered without hamstringing your team against everything else
Snorlax on the other hand, is broken. You CAN NOT run a Gen 2 OU team without Snorlax. Snorlax warped the meta so stronge that it is the meta. By definition it is overcentralizing, but Smogon worships Kanto Pokemon too much to ban it.
If OU usage stats can't land a Pokemon in Ubers then why is there a threshold listed for OU for that exact fricking purpose and why has it been consistently enforced outside those 2 exceptions?
Suspect tests are literally rigged, anon. Council decides what gets tested and why, and decides if the results matter or not (on top of usually fabricating said results).
> why is there a threshold listed for OU for that exact fricking purpose
What threshold? before the birth AG, Über was not even a tier, did you never hear "Über is not a tier, it's a banlist"?
how new are you?
That's twice now you've mentioned Ubers being a banlist and not a tier as if I ever said anything to the contrary. Are you ok? And that pic means literally nothing to me, they've directly cited the threshold for previous bans and even when denying Lando-T's suspect.
Usage in any tier won't get you banned automatically, you still need the council to call for a quick ban or a suspect, OU included
The reason I keep mentioning über was not tier was because the only usage stat that can get a mon banned a tier is reaching the usage threshold in the superior tier, which lead to ou mons literally never getting banned out of usage because of the simple fact than there is no higher tier
Are you just incapable of reading what I write, anon? Because you're mentioning shit I already addressed, but you're acting like you're making a counterpoint.
Uber was always a tier with it's own metagame. It's literally above OU and was the highest of tiers before AG. That's like saying UU isn't a tier and is just a banlist of NU.
>That's like saying UU isn't a tier and is just a banlist of NU.
No it's not, the difference is that high usage in UU WILL get you banned in NU but high usage in über won't.
>Suspect tests are literally rigged, anon.
National Dex did this with Cinderace. First suspect didn't ban it, so they waited a bit and then did a whole new one claiming new things that was already used with it were discovered.
>why is there a threshold listed for OU for that exact fricking purpose
>they've directly cited the threshold for previous bans
Would you mind saying what that threshold is? Or posting where they said that?
Because your vague claims are the first time I've ever heard of a "threshold for bans"
BL is literally as old as UU
the facts that usage alone is not enough to regulate a tier and that you sometimes need to "manually" remove problems has been a part of tiering for as long as tiering itself has existed
also
>ban whatever they want
even if quickbans are a thing, suspect tests are still very common
>gen 1 and/or gen2 meta complaints
their official policy was something like "look, it's a very old format that only die hard fans play, it's not worth the hassle"
I agree with the sentiment than that's lazy, I also agree with the sentiment than if lax got banned, gsc meta would completely flip and I probably wouldn't bother learning the new one
But Gen 2 Snorlax is objectively broken and warps the entire metagame around itself.
The only reason it isn't banned because people are simply too used to a Snorlax meta that they don't want to even think about a metagame without Snorlax.
Lando-T wishes it even had half the viability of Gen 2 Snorlax.
Anon, think of how long it takes for them to ban anything. Weeks or even months.
Imagine if they decided for forgo usage-base tiering altogether and instead tiered everything manually. The next generation would already be out by the time they sort out their shit.
The current system mostly does usage-based tiering, and only resorts to manual tiering in extreme circumstances.
>In extreme circumstances
Which is defined by "thing Smogon doesn't like" because again we have literally no other data to go off of.besides usage rate.
The idea "Lando can never be OP because it doesn't sweep" is moronic, there are more ways to be OP than just running train on a garbage team in 6 turns.
>Lando is not good actually! It's just, uhhh... very common!
Die a painful death.
It’s not over centralizing because it never actually decides matches.
I’m still waiting for this that shows Landorus being broken
I feel the same for Lando that I do for Heatran. I don’t think it’s overpowered or deserves a ban, I’m just fricking sick of constantly having to look at it. The joy of competitive Pokémon, to me, is team building and strats. Lando and Heatran are just so versatile I can’t begrudge anyone using them, I just find it incredibly boring. Obviously I feel this way about other mons like Kart, Ursh, the Slow twins, and Weavile just to a much lesser extent.
>people who actually play the game, win tourneys and get to high elo
yeah lando is fine and not OP
>anon who never made it past 1200, puts ambipon and donphan in every team, too beta to join a tourney and has a 30% predicted win rate
LANDO OP BAN PLS IT OUTSPED AND KILLED MY AGGRON
When are we going to do something about this lizard b***h instead? We need to fricking kill her from the metagame.
didn't read your bait, homosexual OP
I think overcentralizing means that you start bring garbage to counter a threat. Urshifu dark was so strong because like nothing resists dark that doesn’t die in 2 hits so people started to use the mosquito. Dragovish forced swampert. Cinderace and darm though were also too strong because of how much guessing they caused and that a wrong guess would kill you.
>Swinub used Powder Snow!
Is this the Smogon shitposting thread?
I need someone to explain to me why dry passing on fast mons like Zapdos is a thing. Is it just to dodge Pursuit?
Momentum.
If your opponent switches, you can switch after them even if you're using a fast mon.
Oh, to manipulate ability timings?
Just to get into an advantageous position for the turn.
Like if you don't know what your opponent will do on the turn, you can use Baton Pass and then switch into a counter to whatever they have out.
Even if they switch, you can switch to a counter to their switch, and because you're going second, you know exactly what to send out.
>because you're going second, you know exactly what to send out.
oh duh, I forgot it doesn't switch until you actually use the move
Can you tell I haven't played comp in ages
>Competitive pokemon
Cringe and go touch grass
>TL;DR: Smogon is bad because I don’t know know what I’m talking about
>its not that good
>its just on every team
What kind of fricking idiotic rug pull are smoggies trying to pull
>the mon is shit so we put it on every team
Its clear landorous is better than every similar mon in every role you can put it in, or other people would just use the other mon
>they use its because its unpredictable
Smogon banned lucario because it was "unpredictable."
>tier usage doesn't determine usage
Every smoggie isn't playing lando because it sucks. Saying that phrase proves you know nothing about metas
>lando is just as broken as x
Good clean up ou. Its just a dumping ground for legendaries right now.
cope & seethe
Frick off smogotroons.
Your council is an impotent erectile dysfunctional mob
>playing competitive Pokemon post-gen 6
This was your first mistake
I fricking hate Lando as a design, but I will still defend it not getting uber'd. It's not overcentralising, it's versatile, there's a big difference.
Overcetnralizing means that the mon in question has a dominant strategy, and you subsequentially need an answer to that strategy to beat it, which limits you. Say, Zacian alone can just click a button and see most OU teams die one after another. Unaware Quagsire can put an end to that, but including it makes the team weaker to things that aren't Zacian. That's overcentralizing.
Versatile mons like Landorus-T are baisically a dozen different mons in one, that's where usage comes from. It's not overcentralizing because every Lando set in a vaccuum is perfectly beatable by reasonable means, you just have to guess which one it is, which team preview helps a lot with. In fact, it is actually self-limiting, unlike most mons you might want to have multplle Landos because it's good at so many roles, but you can't have more than one and have to settle with something else for the other roles.
ok but lando used EQ and killed my arbok so i seethe and want it banned from OU now
>It's not overcentralizing because every Lando set in a vaccuum is perfectly beatable by reasonable means
You want to know a pokemon that's banned for that exact same reasoning... Magearna. You could even make the argument that Kyurem was also banned for this reasoning outside of a salty player getting outplayed and swept 6-0.
why do you keep up with this cope that kyurem got banned because of exactly 1 replay? Did your boyfriend make you believe that?
>You want to know a pokemon that's banned for that exact same reasoning... Magearna.
Magearna can snowball way too easily, Lando can't snowball at all
Lol I missed the part where Lando has Moxie, right? you're moronic
Ah yes the pokemon with base 65 speed which requires it to run shift gear to compensate for if you really want it to snowball. which can easily be stopped by the move taunt, switching on the predicted shift gear to a pokemon that checks it, A case of four moveslot syndrome, as well as no form of reliable recovery is far too much for smogon to handle, And why is this? because it slaughters passive teams that try to whittle it down overtime. Magearna was banned for it's versatility and that's a fact.
>by reasonable means
Landorus has a ton of sets, but all of them have the same weakness of being faster and using Ice Beam.
Magearna has many different sets, which are all beatable on their own, but nothing beats all of them. So the "reasonable means" of beating it is a lucky guess.
Gay pick. Boring pick.
I just leave any match I get when randomed against a loser with this 'mon. Not because it's OP. Because I don't want to waste second of my life interacting with such a pathetic, uninteresting human, rating be damned.
move out of the way
the real menace of ou coming through
you see this and realize it's going to take 3 fighting moves after leech seed + protect to kill it but by then torn or zap has come in and now every team is forced to run one of 3 options to deal with this BS
Sub 1300 Elo players can’t comprehend the concept of a role compressor. It has nothing to do with being overpowered.
biggest cope itt
role compressing is overcentralizing by virtue of reducing variability / usage of other mons.
>role compressing is overcentralizing by virtue of reducing variability / usage of other mons.
sure, but that just converges on a generic team that's a jack of all trades and is at the mercy of team PV
Clefable isn't as good as Chansey or Blissey at sponging special attacks and isn't as good a physical wall as Slowbro, and Chansey/Blissey lack the offensive power and auto regen of Slowking-G.
The issue with LANDO is that no other mon does what Lando does - be a powerful offensive pivot. The closest mons with intimidate, Gyarados, Salamence, Arcanine and Incineroar are either not as bulky or not as powerful and are SR weak.
I guarantee you though, if Corviknight had Intimidate as one of its abilities instead of Mirror Armor, it would be Uber.
Role compressing allows more versatility overall.
When you have all of your necessary roles compressed into one party slot, you can be more experimental with the other 5 party slots.
Emphasis on "can". NPC's will always be NPC's and just use copypasted teams.
>Pokemon in Overused is overused
Woooooooooooooooow
When you fight a team with a Lando-T, are you afraid of it?
Depends on my team but who idiot would build a team weak to lando.
>are you afraid of 70% of teams
I mean I wouldn't play the tier if I was
If u don’t have a ground resist, lando does the same damage to a team as kyurem. But that’s the funny part and why it has 70% usage, he counters himself. Imagine that though, a mon so OP his only counter is himself.
If he didn't look like shit I wouldn't care tbh
he looks like a fricking digimon
Time for this lesson again.
>There is counterplay to the counters therefore it's OP
The more I interact with Smogtards the more I hate them. Generic defensive mon good. Sweeper bad.
>The only counters suck at doing anything else but countering that mon
>Said mon can still deal with them with a bit of muscle
Yes, an oppressive sweeper with no counterplay bad, a generic defensive mon with plenty of counterplay good. Go back to League of Legends.
>AV Tyranitar
>AV Heatran
>Band ice shard mon
Ah yes what completely off meta useless builds Pokemon is literally unplayable if you can't switch in on every single threat
Yes they are useless builds, complete dead weight unless facing Naganadel specially in the first Naganadel meta. Glad we agree.
AV Tyranitar was fricking everywhere in early Swsh meta before restricted. You are bad.
People act like it's only a problem if you get swept, if your ice type coverage gets eliminated vs. Landorus you will lose too it will just take longer.
>ice type coverage gets eliminated vs. Landorus you will lose too it will just take longer.
Ever hear of Water? Scald being the best attacking move in the tier?
>Landorus you will lose too it will just take longer
Lando has no recovery and it's weak to Scald among other forms of pressure and passive damage since it can be status'd and is hit by SR.
>naganadel is more OP than landorus, ergo, lando isn't OP
nice logic there, yeah, naga (and previously pheromosa for the same reasons) was extremely OP in OU, so what? it got instabanned; not sweeping instantly doesn't mean something isn't overcentralizing, pex can't do tons of damage by itself, but toxic scald spam hurts a ton of teams and pex is by far the best at it, the same way a (kinda) fast and strong u turn stealth rock setter does, death by a thousand paper cuts is still death
Funny thing about that finch vid, if his own lando would have died, lando would 5-0 the rest of his team. But we aint gonna talk about that i guess.
yeah bro i got swept by magikarp once ban it??!?!?!
Replace magi with Kyurem and you summarized the whole thread. There were 0 (zero) talks of Kyurem getting banned before that vid.
>Snover used Ice Shard!
So you decide to cry on another forum? LMAO get rekt
Play Gen 5 OU if you want to see "overcentralizing". Lando-t doesn't centralize as hard as Snorlax would, T-tar in Gen 5 is way more overcentralizing as well but that's cuz he's the ONLY guy who can stop Rain and Psychic spam.
>Snorlax would
Shit I meant Snorlax in Gen 2 OU.
don't forget ttar gen 3
True but T-tar in ADV is a nice presence in it. In my Gen 5 example OU is such a shit show because how absurd several offense mons are and the lack of defensive checks and counters that can cover enough of them. Ferrothorn and T-tar are S-tier in BW OU because they are one of the few mons who have ways to stop the sheer cancer in it. The battles are so matchup dependant with little to no margin of error that for every skill level in it from newbies to long time vets still get fricked by shit.
I think you want the road block thread