What's the best game for the Imperial China experience? Gameplay-wise I'm most familiar with CK and TW but openminded to unfamiliar mechanics. Total conversion mods also count, I have a lot of games
China
What's the best game for the Imperial China experience? Gameplay-wise I'm most familiar with CK and TW but openminded to unfamiliar mechanics. Total conversion mods also count, I have a lot of games
in fallout 3 you can be a cannibal
After two decades I'm already bored of Eurocentrism. Also I thought China was considered a kino setting on this board
Sounds fun but I'm looking for something a little more top down and grand scale.
I've tried that, didn't like it so much. Agree with your points.
>Also I thought China was considered a kino setting on this board
It mostly is. You just get the occasional weirdo that hates everything that isn't his own personal non white people genocide simulator.
Decisive Tang strategic victory
Literally
They managed to hold them back long enough to allow the Tang gather and organize, outnumbered 15 to 1
in starcraft you can play a bugman empire
What about that Dynasty Warrior mod for M&B?
in honor of the anon who posted in honor of the anon who posted on honor of the anon who posted
DIE NASTY WARRIORS!
Oriental empires is alright, but it seems like it was more intended to be an educational game about very early China than a serious 4x. If the battle mechanics actually worked it would probably be one of the best 4x out there though.
>If the battle mechanics actually worked it would probably be one of the best 4x out there though.
The battle mechanics work, but having to swap out your elite troops every 2-3 engagements is a PITA.
Romance of the Three Kingdoms (The Koei games, not the novel) is a pretty obvious place. Just don't get them on steam because, besides the new two games, they are all Japanese only and, while a fan translation exists, it's very rough.
There are a shitload of those. Which ones should I play? Which one to start with?
Their loss.
Koeigay here
>Which ones should I play? Which one to start with?
If you want to play as individual officer, VII, VIII, X or XIII. Everything else is faction play. Aside from XII being a genuinely bad game and XIII just kinda meh, every game in the series has its own pros and cons with general consensus being X is best for officer play and XI is best for faction play. VIII is getting a full blown remake next year so that's probably a good place to start too.
Total War Three Kingdoms was pretty rad for a playthrough or two
Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdom
Honestly, I would like a Three Kingdom Mouth and Blade game. Feels like a good setting for it.
Cao Cao, Liu Bei, or Sun Quan?
Cao Cao was the only one with a long term plan and decent successors. Shame that Pi and Rui both died young and that Cao Wei could never properly integrate the gentry before Sima Yi usurped the dynasty with their backing.
Sun Quan went senile and single-handedly fricked Wu with his succession shenanigans. Liu Bei was too focused on retaking the Empire and set his successors (Zhuge Liang and eventually Jiang Wei) on a path to ruin.
If Shu Han focused on building their own kingdom instead of constantly expending ressources on fighting Cao Wei, they could have drastically changed the dynamic of Chinese history by making it so no one Dynasty managed to reunify after the Han fell. The Chinese Empire might have ended up much like the Roman Empire, an ideal that a multitude of polities seek to emulate, but always fall short.
Ironically, one of the more derided figures of the Three Kingdoms, Liu Chan, wasn't that bad. He left the day-to-day management to very skilled ministers and only stepped in when he thought that Jiang Wei was throwing away too many ressources on his campaigns. Notably, the fact he told Jiang Wei to stop and Jiang Wei did means that he had actual authority in Shu, rather than being a puppet who needed ministers to back him up against a disproportionately powerful minister.
What was Cao Cao's long term plan? Did he intend to take over the dynasty or is that just historical slander and it was mostly Cao Pi's doing?
Agree with Sun Quan. I mean, much as I find him a fascinating figure and love reading about him, he did seemingly go off the deep end and it shows in everything that went down.
It's possible. Though considering China collapsed after Jin and still eventually reunified it's hard to say. Do think Shu, and also Wu, could have lasted WAY longer than they historically did.
Liu Chan has his flaws, but I do agree that he's nowhere near as bad as fiction often portrays him as. It's not on the level of DW, where he's secretly really competent, but the real guy is by all accounts a far cry from the borderline mentally handicapped portrayal he sometimes get in stories.
Cao Cao's plan for usurpation is unknown. The part I'm referring to is his sidelining of the gentry. One of the issues that plagued Eastern Han was the monopolization of government post by select gentry clans.
In theory, anyone could take the exam and attain a post in government, but in practice, studying for the exam required access to texts that were expensive and rare because of the lack of printing press. This meant that those who could get government posts were usually the children of government officials. Over several generations, this created a sense of entitlement in those clans, which lead to resentment and unrest.
Cao Cao meant to break the hold of those clans by sidelining them and training his own bureaucrats from his meritocratic military. This was the actual source of Cao Cao's mistrust of Sima Yi, as Sima Yi was a member of a big gentry clan. A well-placed mistrust, as Sima Yi would eventually usurp the throne with the backing of the sidelined gentry.
With the gentry fully in control, the empire was divided between the many princes, all with their own gentry backing. The ensuing civil war weakened the empire and turned its attention away from the nomads, and the rest is history.
I'm not really doing it justice. I recommend the Western Han, Eastern Han, 3K and Jin videos of GatesofKilikien on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/@gatesofkilikien
That sounds about right. Though I must admit it's pretty confusing try to understand the actual relationship between the Sima and Cao families. I've seen everything from massive distrust to close personal friends thrown around.
Might check out those video. If nothing else they seem fun.
>In theory, anyone could take the exam and attain a post in government, but in practice, studying for the exam required access to texts that were expensive and rare because of the lack of printing press.
It's funny how that system was still in place during the Qing era. Though, obviously, printing presses were a thing by then.
Warring States > Three Kingdoms
Don't entirely agree, but it's a cool time period. Same for the Chu-Han contention.
Most Three Kingdom figures, historical or fictional, sound like self insert mary sue characters. Even historical Liu Bei's rise to power is so ridiclous it turns right around and becomes awesome.
Zhuge liang is to be like that in history book.
I would say real history Zhuge Liang was way less over the top than the fictional version. I wouldn't even say he's on the level of Lu Meng, Zhang Liao, or even Liu Bei himself when it comes to the "How the frick is this guy real?" tierlist.
This is a dumb question but is Three Kingdoms: Total War actually a good game about the Three Kingdoms period, versus being a Total War game with a Three Kingdoms wrapper?
For all the shit CA gets for its gameplay i get the impression they at least pay attention to Warhammer's lore or the historicity of the Sengoku Jidai etc. wherever it applies
I would say they do a pretty good job making it feel like a Three Kingdoms game. I tend to compare it favorably to Shogun 2, which doesn't really do a good job representing the major figures/clans. I would say it's probably on par with Warhammer. Only perhaps led down by the Romance/Record split not being as well handled as it could have.
It’s pretty good, but you will be lost if you don’t have an idea of what was going on at the time, and who the people involved are, both in terms of the novel and actual history, as it’s a lot more character focused than Shogun and the game only gives you snippets of what’s going on and who these dudes are. Also, ironically, none of the game’s starting points are set during the actual historical Three Kingdoms era, as CA gave up on the game before any such DLC could come out.
>Also, ironically, none of the game’s starting points are set during the actual historical Three Kingdoms era, as CA gave up on the game before any such DLC could come out.
How hard did the chinks mald about this?
Not that mad since when people say "Three Kingdoms period" most of the stuff people think about (Chibi, Cao Cao vs Liu Bei, Guan Yu) happened before the actual Three Kingdoms period.
Zhuge Liang's campaigns tend to get the most attention of anything actually happening during the Three Kingdom era. It's why most DW games tended to just end it in 234.
What's the best game for if you specifically just want to learn about Chinese history and lore and culture? Like a game that's educational and has a lot of facts in it.
If you actually want to learn about Chinese history, read a book or at least listen to a history podcast.
Thinking about it, what are some not so famous or well known periods of Chinese history that could make for a cool wargame?
The Taiping Rebellion, where you get to choose between a decrepit and incompetent imperial government or a revolt led by a psychotic psuedo-apocalyptic cult, in the backdrop is a bunch of foreign traders on the coasts gawping at their ineffectual fighting, fumbling both with medieval melee weapons and modern rifles and cannons
tens of millions die anyway
You joke, but I could see a cool Taiping rebellion game being made.
>where you get to choose between a decrepit and incompetent imperial government or a revolt led by a psychotic psuedo-apocalyptic cult,
Sounds like the premise of the next SMT game. Well, that and America in a few years.
There is a game set there. No idea how it is but it seems like it was made by the AGEOD guys
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1519060/SGS_Taipings/
I'll give it a shit in the near future. It actually looks pretty decent.
>AGEOD
I mean, I thought Field of Glory empire was okay outside of some really baffling choices.
*Give it a try
Warlords period of the 20th century.
I feel it's hard to do that without being part of a larger world war 2 game. Though I do like the idea of the final boss being Japan invading.
The conflict between the Southern Ming and the Jurchen banners, An Lushan's rebellion, and, as the other anon said, mid-19th century China.
In that last case, you saw a series of revolts, each kicked off by the realization back around 1810 that the government was weak, owing to the structure of the Banners. It was a very interesting time.
>Border wars in Burma triggering revolts around Chang'an (requiring concentration camps to solve)
>The Qing government trying to prevent revolts while mitigating the impact of British incursions
>A flood (and sex-selective abortion) turning a disaster zone into a bandit-ridden feudal state
>A millenarian "Christian" theocracy being suppressed by the gentry and European mercenaries
>All of the country's power being concentrated in one warlord, who ceded his power to the government to keep the country running
>Peasants declaring that the Heavens themselves have rejected Manchu rule, and launching a rebellion that succeeds in taking the capital and capturing the empress, only for her to, with said peasants breathing down her neck, make a speech that turns them all around and causes them to wage war against every European country active in China.
My friend linked me a book on it.
https://archive.org/details/rebellionitsenem0000kuhn/mode/2up?view=theater