>constantly yaps about what game development and programming SHOULD be for many years
>never made a single fun videogame in his life
lmao it just shows you can't teach having good taste
>constantly yaps about what game development and programming SHOULD be for many years
In the event you're not kidding, he talks about this regularly. It seems you're conflating game design with game programming. He's a game developer and teaches game development. Not game design.
I like games he's worked on and ones that utilize his software projects. I can't say I've ever even heard of a game he has published himself.
In sincerity though, are you just trying to get some attention? What's going on big guy?
He hasn't programmed a game either, he literally spent 7 years making a "program a game from scratch" tutorial and didn't move past the first 20%
A true nodev
He's shipped software used by a ton of games, and is directly credited in most of Jon Blow's games which are pretty well received. There's probably others as well since he hangs around with prolific game devs from the 90s and later.
He has worked on game tools
He worked on an animation system and a video playback system
He has barely done any actual game work, he has not programmed a game
>he has not programmed a game
As I already pointed out, he's credited for working on several games. As a programmer. Considering his tools and libraries are also core components of 3D game engines, he's also indirectly programmed games as well since they depend on his code to function.
This would make anyone who has contributed to an operating system a video game developer too.
Ridiculous argument.
> He worked on an animation system and a video playback system
>He has barely done any actual game work, he has not programmed a game
You’ve already beclowned yourself with these two statements but here’s a couple more example of what he did on The Witness alone, better than most in the industry can manage too:
A lightning-fast grass-painting algorithm that artists could use in real-time in the level editor
?si=BQOCubU6rQrFr4YD
Further refined here:
https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0011
An extremely robust movement system that’s immune to getting stuck in geometry, like what happens in most video games:
?si=bNma3ySWBr-1e047
He also literally invented Immediate Mode UI, used by dev tools everywhere, a metric frickton of videogames and now huge apps like Facebook and Twitter.
"He has not programmed a game", he has not programmed a game from start to completion
He has programmed small parts of a game, this does not make him an authority on how to program an entire game, as he claims to do with Handmade Hero
>He also literally invented Immediate Mode UI
Lmao no
Who's calling him an authority? I'll take free courses from an established game developer over nothing. And that's what this seems to be.
>Who's calling him an authority?
Himself mainly
>established game developer
He's a tool developer at best
>Himself mainly
Citation needed.
>He's a tool developer at best
Game engines are tools. So it seems like a good resource if that's what you're working on or building from scratch. Do you know of any better resources to learn from? If so post them.
>Game engines are tools.
Not really, tools are auxiliary things that support games / game engines, much smaller in scope than game engines themselves
He doesn't have the authority to talk about game engines
>He doesn't have the authority to talk about game engines
Why do you feel that way? Who in your opinion does and can you link to it. I want to know how to do this and link other people that have the same interest.
>Why do you feel that way?
I already told you, he hasn't worked on one in any signficant capacity
Who has that is also putting out free courses? This is what I am asking. To please link to a better learning resource for game engine development if this one is not good in your opinion. I would like to learn it. For free. To the same degree of detail.
This is a really pathetic argument tactic, like if I criticize one person I have to provide an alternative
I don't, Casey is a poser
It's a request, not an argument. A question. You're criticizing and discrediting him. Thus the claim is that the resource is not good.
So me, as someone that wants to learn it, is listening to you and asking you what you suggest instead. You're refusing to provide it and I don't know why that is. Youre acting as if I'm against you for just listening to what you have to say. I'm not going to disregard it if that's your fear. Just post the one you recommend and I'll drop this one. Isn't that what you're trying to convince people to do?
I'm just trying to convince people not to listen to Casey, I don't care what you do otherwise
If you want to learn then I would suggest looking at existing open source engines out there and seeing how they do things, they're much better than his half-assed attempt
You're going to have a hard time convincing people to stop learning if you don't provide a better alternative. If the alternative is to just stop learning game development, it's not appealing to people who want to learn game development.
Telling juniors to "just read existing engines made by teams of people" is bad advice. They won't even know where to begin.
Casey's tutorials aren't for beginners either, he expects you to know how to program, he spends a long time talking about complex topics (which are ultimately irrelevant to your pursuit and a waste of mental energy to think about)
Reading open source game engines also requires you to know how to program. It also requires some familiarity with game engines, ones that are already built.
Casey's only requires the former as the engine is being built and explained in the process. You're not going to get that luxury from some random game engine project you find on GitHub, etc.
I'll say again I don't think your goal of convincing people is going to succeed without a better alternative, and the one you proposed does not seem to be one. It may as well be saying
>just like make game
If you want to learn how to program games and you are beginner then I would suggest using someone else's engine. Then when the time comes and you actually understand game engines, you can make your own
If you want to learn from scratch and not use an engine, I would suggest some of the other tutorials out there that aren't literally 1000 hours long
>I would suggest some of the other tutorials out there that aren't literally 1000 hours long
Such as?
If you're going to argue against a specific concrete person, you need to provide at least 1 specific concrete alternative (more would be welcomed).
And when I say "need", I mean if you actually want to convince people and not just whine about it.
Put yourself in the perspective of the people you're trying to convince.
I come up to you after you've put some time into something and find value into it, then just tell you the teacher is whack and you should stop. You'd be like "frick off".
This but the word "actor".
>you need to provide at least 1 specific concrete alternative
Try Googling
The onus is on you. Again, put yourself in the perspective of the people you're trying to convince. Would such a low effort argument work against yourself in that situation?
I can tell you it hasn't convinced me, and provably won't convince anyone else.
Ironically so far you've convinced more people to look into it than to avoid it. By your own praise.
I am not trying to convince you to stop using his tutorial. I don't give a shit what you do. All I am trying to do is convince people that Casey is a poser and his tutorial is an embarassing waste of time. You could keep following it for all I care
>I don't give a shit
>Sweats on an anonymous Mongolian Basket weaving forum
jej
I give a shit that people are listening to this charlatan. I don't give a shit what you choose to do because I'm not a megalomanic, I want people to know the truth and they can decide what to do from there
The facts are that Casey does not have any observable experience making a game engine. He has spend nearly a decade making thousands of hours of tutorials to make a game that's still in a pre-alpha. A proper tutorial should take a few months to get to the point he's at. He spends most of his videos waffling about shit you don't need to know
nice blogpost
Your entire post sounds like a contradiction. You clearly care enough to argue about it, but are doing so poorly. And if it's a waste of time then why should people continue using it?
All I'm doing is telling you straight up you're not convincing, and why. If you want to try to improve your argument, you can take the advice. If you ignore it and don't want to put effort into it then I don't think it's going to be very effective. That's all I'm saying, I don't take his course or want to do game dev. I'm just pointing out that you're doing the opposite of what you intend to by making poor arguments.
You are pretending to be an unbiased observer when you aren't, you clearly have a bias towards Casey, so what I say isn't gonna convince you because you're just going to ignore it
You're pretending that I'm a biased "apologist". You're arguing in bad faith, which again isn't going to be effective. Ironically, you've defended Casey against your own arguments more than anyone else in the thread, while simultaneously giving reply fuel to people who correct you.
You're now trying to warp this into a personal thing by constantly saying "you" to my general points and advice about hypothetical people that would actually read your posts (besides me - i.e. nobody).
>You're pretending that I'm a biased "apologist"
If you are the poster who made a list of his accomplishments then you are indeed biased because it was incredibly embellished
>You're now trying to warp this into a personal thing
That's because I think you're being dishonest
My argument is honest, I present verifible facts
You claim my argument is bad because I'm not providing an alternative, that isn't how arguments work, that is how apologists argue, I do not need to provide a solution to point out a problem
If you actually gave a shit then I could probably find a good tutorial for you in 10 minutes of Googling, but seeing you don't I'm not going to bother
>If you are the poster who made a list of his accomplishments
I don't recall doing so. It was probably another poster. You shouldn't conflate all your detractors into 1 person. Each post should stand on its own.
>That's because I think you're being dishonest
Not even once. Your claim is a baseless assumption and you're not even clear on which posts are mine.
>My argument is honest, I present verifible facts
Speaking honestly isn't convincing in itself. You might hold some opinion and state it truthfully, but that doesn't mean others will agree.
The facts you claimed were proven wrong and some of which were even contradicted by yourself. You keep moving goalposts into subjective territory in a way that is honestly embarrassing. Like that of a child.
>You claim my argument is bad because I'm not providing an alternative
Not true. I claim it's bad for a variety of reason I've stated. I offered advice to be more convincing, and that would be to have an alternative ready to those you're trying to convince. A pathway for them to drop one thing for another.
>I do not need to provide a solution to point out a problem
Nobody claimed otherwise. You're the one saying that your goal is to convince people to not listen to him. I'm telling you the way you're going about it isn't going to work.
>If you actually gave a shit then I could probably...
The irony of this is that you don't give enough of a shit to do it once to convince N readers. You can try to argue with me specifically, but you're losing the general audience by being this way. It's not convincing that you know what you're talking about, and have done the research. Nor can you even provide an alternative. It's weak and ineffective.
Sorry that pointing these things out bothers you or whatever, but that doesn't make me dishonest or does it mean I have some kind of hidden agenda against you personally. That's schizo shit.
I'm talking basic reasoning and arguments.
are u the carriage return anon from gedg
I don't care about game engines at all and don't lurk those threads, so no. I'm just arguing with Anonymous about communication more than anything here.
i think you are the carriage return anon from gedg.
No the guy he's replying to is you idiot
i can spot you from a literal mile away at this point. god damn it carriage return anon if you spend half as much time learning bevy and rust as you did pretending to be a game developer on Ganker you'd be much happier
>i can spot you from a literal mile away
You thought someone who wasn't me was me twice, I'd say you were way off
it's time to stop man.
Have fun with Rust schizobro
god speed carriage returner. i hope you win this argument for us gedglets - i'll be busy gliding past the borrow checker (remember that thing you got filtered by?)
xo
Sorry if you miss arguing about Rust but it's just not that interesting
>The facts you claimed were proven wrong
I claimed he hasn't made any significant game from scratch and I can link you his fricking mobygames page that tells you exactly that
If you want to say "well technically you're wrong, he HAS made a game from scratch, because he made this game which is something somebody could have made in middle school" then yes, I will call you dishonest, because it's totally insigificant and you're just trying to win an argument on a technicality
>I offered advice to be more convincing, and that would be to have an alternative ready
I am not trying to convince people to not use his tutorial, I am trying to convince people he lacks experience in the area he claims to be an expert in
The tone of all your posts is dishonest, fake nice, and generally hiding your real intentions
>verifible
""""literally""""?
>I am trying to do is convince people
you're doing a shitty job; you come across as simply a mentally ill dufus
>you're doing a shitty job
I panned this thread out to 350 replies, I've definitely rustled some jimmies
>some people called me mental after I trolled
not exactly something to celebrate
I wasn't trolling, it's just not possible to convince Gankerners of something unless it's something completely factual and you have overwhelming proof that they're wrong, and even then they still have denial
Making an argument is the best you can do
>it's just not possible to convince Gankerners of something unless it's something completely factual and you have overwhelming proof that they're wrong, and even then they still have denial
>Making an argument is the best you can do
The poetic irony of this post will be lost on you.
I presented my opinion and the relevant facts. The people / person replying to me followed the typical Ganker argument pattern of attack the message instead of the meaning, then when that didn't work they moved onto ad hominem
When you want to present yourself as factual, you better assure you're able to convey your meaning well. You did not. And your message was nothing more than a meaningless complaint about nobody to nobody. It's worse than pointless because it's purely negative and specific just to yourself.
>You did not
I did. I even managed to come up with a little slogan that was pure fact that nobody could argue with. 9 years, 600 videos, no game. The fact of the matter is you just want to argue because you don't like what I'm saying. You will find any avenue of attack you can to try and disagree because you fundamentally dislike what I'm saying - but you won't say why. Which is cowardly, but it's par for the course on Ganker sadly
Telling other people to stop following a delusional leader is not purely negative, it's positive. You think I'm depriving people of their ability to program or something. You don't need Casey dude, you have the power within yourself
Everything you just said lines up with my own post.
>purely negative and specific just to yourself
You might focus on some specific aspect and treat it as an important negative, but you're unwilling to see any benefit even to others. You're now posting baseless speculations to a random person you don't even know, charged with emotion instead of reason.
Why don't you try addressing his argument instead of doing some meta commentary bullshit
I'm not sure what you mean. I am. He's focused on a specific aspect, personally thinks that's important, and has not been able to even comprehend an alternate perspective. Not even enough to understand why some people may not respect his stance, writing it off for any reason instead.
>they must be cowards
>they must have a secret agenda
>it must be the same person
>it's because they're not honest
etc.
any excuse, none of which make any sense and don't help convince anyone either.
His argument is none, his commentary is many. At the end of the day he doesn't like this course and can't really explain why besides a single point that doesn't even pertain to the material he criticizes in one post, then boasts about the next.
It's important to highlight meta things like this because it shows he's either confused or intentionally being conflicting.
Look at this schizo shit
>It's very easy to see when people are arguing dishonestly, you aren't as clever as you think you are
He's just making up excuses to ignore any feedback.
The course is 677 long episodes that are supposed to teach you how to make a game from scratch but never actually gets to the finish line. Of course people will be critical of that. He ever charged money for the game before effectively abandoning it. That's objectively wrong.
>That's objectively wrong.
It's not.
Most of the people deriving value from it do so for free, and have talked about it in a positive way. It's clearly subjective.
>It's not objectively wrong to promise something and deliver the opposite
How much more delusional can you get?
You're asserting that the project is abandoned and will not be finished despite knowing this isn't true. You're intentionally being dishonest.
You're also assuming that because you care about that aspect, everyone else does. Despite the fact many people not only claim but have shown to derive skills from the free materials. Already. Not in the future.
>You're asserting that the project is abandoned and will not be finished despite knowing this isn't true.
He started a new project and hasn't touched Handmade Hero in 10 months
And?
The site even shows limited streaming during the the project's runtime. That's not abandoned. The site isn't shut down. The courses are still there. Etc.
You're making a false claim.
It's a fact that he charged money for a project and then stopped working on it before it was completed. At least admit that much.
He hasn't "stopped" working on it. Hiatus between projects is very common in software. Abandoned means he won't work on it again. Stopped means he's done. The message on the projects own website implies otherwise. You're lying on purpose.
>Hiatus between projects is very common in software
Yeah about that deadline? Sorry bro I'm on hiatus. Give me 10 months. Or I don't know, two years. Yeah sorry you know how it is, software development, we're lax about these things
What deadline?
>Yeah sorry you know how it is, software development, we're lax about these things
More like free educational material. Maybe you can reach out to him and financially incentivize a regular production if you care about that so much. Which would be odd since you seem to think it's not worth anything.
He promised a full game
People PAID him for this (it's not free, but I won't call you a liar, you're just mistaken)
It's been 9 years, he has not delivered, and he's abandoned it for another project
He is working on a different project. Meaning he deliberately chose to stop work on fullfilling his obligations to those who paid for HH. If you're not dishonest than admit that fact.
>chose to stop
That's false. You have no evidence to show that work on it will not resume.
"Stopped" and "abandoned" do not mean the same thing as "working on something else before I get back to this".
Furthermore, argue the value propositions here. What are we talking about $5 for several thousand hours of videos and code that you still have access to right now? I thought it was abandoned, why is the site still operating? Why are the videos still there? How are people accessing the code? The project is stopped isn't it?
>You have no evidence to show that work on it will not resume.
copium
He stopped working on the project, yes.
He used to work on it regularly. Every weekend I think? It has now not been worked on in 10 months. What do you call that? Are you out of copium yet?
Gnome couldn't implement thumbnails for years. Mozilla has bugs for years in their browser. Yet the projects aren't dead and this kind of delay between things isn't uncommon when devs switch between projects.
It's not that it has bugs
It's not that it lacks a feature
It's fricking unfinished. It's not even CLOSE. It's like 20% of the way there. Are you literally insane? Do you have a job? Or do you think all software development is just freetard shit where people have no obligations?
you know he has an actual job right? He's been making a game called 1935
Also announced a decade ago with absolutely nothing to show, his proposal for it was also absolutely fricking mental to the point I was questioning his sanity
>where people have no obligations?
The irony in saying this and getting mad when he tackles other obligations to pay bills.
>You're asserting that the project is abandoned and will not be finished
Huh? It's not abandoned? Why hasn't he released a video lately? Could it be he's working on other projects rather than completing the one he's already charged money for?
He charged money under the premise that the game would be completed and released, all while he was working on it 5 days a week. Then he gradually abandoned development and didn't refund people who paid for the game. If you can't see how that's wrong then you're morally bankrupt.
>inb4 but it's about the course not the game
The course was about creating a game to completion, not halfway.
>He's focused on a specific aspect, personally thinks that's important
I don't know bro, I think actually fininishing and delivering instead of spending a decade on a simple project is kind of universally important
> he doesn't like this course and can't really explain why
I spent the ENTIRE THREAD explaining why you blithering fricking moron
>I spent the ENTIRE THREAD explaining why you blithering fricking moron
What's your point? You did so poorly, and were called out for it multiple times. And once more.
Ironically, you spent the entire thread and never finished your goal. The same thing you're criticizing him for.
>you spent the entire thread and never finished your goal
9 years, 600 videos, no game
380 posts, no point, no game
You just replied to the point
The point is right there but people will seemingly do everything to avoid it, apparently it's not even about the game, it's about the friends we made along the way
>Liar
It's subjective you fricking dunce, I have no idea what you're making, from my perspective his engine doesn't do a lot
>from my perspective his engine doesn't do a lot
Which is why you're wrong in stating it as a fact when it's not the case. As many have said to you already.
The tagline said "professional quality" but I would not fricking call his engine professional quality at the stage at it is at right now and neither would any professional I know, not because it's bad, but because it's UNFINISHED
The only emotional thing is how sad it is people won't engage in geinune discussion. It's very easy to see when people are arguing dishonestly, you aren't as clever as you think you are
I've mentioned numerous times that he can be insightful on particular topics. If YOU personally find his videos helpful, then I won't disagree with you on that, and I would even ask you what you found helpful about those videos so that maybe I might rethink my opinion on Handmade Hero being a pointless waste of time
I went to bed and came back 10 hours later and you're still arguing the same stupid shit that I got you to admit was wrong back then. HMH is useful precisely because you can watch an expert programmer work and explain things. Additionally, if you follow along, then you can stop at almost any point after a while and you'll have a very solid game engine that you fully understand. I reference HMH in my own codebase even though it's in a different language with different techniques, because it's just that useful.
>you'll have a very solid game engine
His game engine is quite sparse and unfinished, it's not solid at all
Uh huh. I'm somehow going to believe you saying that over the game engine I've watched and built. Liar.
I legitimate thought OP was underage for the first half of the thread.
>which are ultimately irrelevant to your pursuit and a waste of mental energy to think about
good morning saaaaaar
>which are ultimately irrelevant to your pursuit and a waste of mental energy to think about
This is why modern games run like shit and require tipple digit GB size.
Very nice
Now lets see your portfolio
>I'm just trying to convince people not to listen to Casey
kek, good luck with that homosexual
This should be funny. Go and find out who invented it then. We all eagerly await your findings.
Imagine thinking someone "invented" the simplest way to do a GUI that literally anyone would do when making an adhoc GUI system and have been doing since the fricking 80s or whenever GUIs became common place in user applications
Dodge failed.
Oh do you think people were creating complex OOP hierarchies to represent GUIs since they were invented and Casey just came along and invented function calls?
Deflect failed.
They did retained mode in the 80s because computers were so slow that you literally couldn’t repaint the entire screen in one refresh. Immediate Mode literally rerenders everything every frame. You haven’t a clue what you’re talking about do you? 🙂
After the 80s came the 90s, where computers were fast enough to redraw the entire screen, but people were still using languages like C and assembly to write games so there wasn't any OOP
>it's not an object if I call it an entity and don't have a built in `class` keyword
Game developers in C were 100% using object oriented programming.
>Game developers in C were 100% using object oriented programming
No, not really, wasting memory on retained mode GUI when it was not neccessary and would result in you writing more code was not a smart decision
Most game code is gameplay code
>mommy w3schools told me no objects in C so it must be true uwu
back to school obvious nocoder
Do you seriously think win32 is immediate mode or what?
No?
>An extremely robust movement system that’s immune to getting stuck in geometry, like what happens in most video games:
It is possible to get stuck, and anything that moves is jerky at its edges.
>He also literally invented Immediate Mode UI
He didn’t, here’s an immediate mode GUI library released before he even publicly spoke about it:
https://perso.univ-lyon1.fr/thierry.excoffier/ZMW/
>He also literally invented Immediate Mode UI
moron, immediate mode ui has been invented and reinvented 1000s of times over because it is a self explanatory simple paradigm. And no, he was not the first.
>He has worked on game tools
>He has barely done any actual game work, he has not programmed a game
Game tools are the VAST MAJORITY of "programming a game" you stupid Black person. 99% of game programming is programming tools.
>blu-blu-blu when I use unity I don't program tools
Yes because you aren't programming your own game, the Unity developers did it for you and now you're slapping together store assets and scripts like the talentless monkey you are.
>99% of game programming is programming tools.
It's about 5-25%
Look pal if you want to be real here the majority of gamedev is texturing rocks. But when it comes to code, most of the effort is in the tools and engine. That you can buy the engine and tools pre-made doesn’t change that, but it does mean you’re ignorant of how much work that takes.
'The Witness' you fricking idiot
If you watch the first 26 episodes of handmade hero you will be able to make a game easily, the fact that Casey wasted a lot of time doing lighting systems and not programming gameplay does not change that.
Also, it's unfair to say he spent 7 years on it when he made one video a week and didn't touch the project outside that time. He has spent less than half a year of actual dev time on the project, and a lot of the time was spent teaching and explaining things too.
>If you watch the first 26 episodes of handmade hero you will be able to make a game easily
You mean the episodes where he's just getting things set up before he moves into actual game programming?
Hilarious
>he's credited for working on several games. As a programmer
Yes, "Stunt Hamsters" in 2004 (pictured), and one debug tool for The Witness
Apart from that he just worked on Bink and Granny (good tools, but not games)
It would seem you disproved your own claim.
Are you trying to make a point or are you just trying to find someone to speak to about this? I'm not sure how Casey is related to you or what you want to focus on.
He has barely any game programming experience
he has not seen a signifcant project through from start to finish
He shouldn't be telling people how to program games, because he doesn't know how, and you can see the results in his embarassing Handmade Hero video tutorial series (currently unfinished)
I would disagree, but the bigger thing to focus on here is why does this matter to you? Enough so to start a thread about it. Do you know him or something?
Side topic, have you worked on any games and/or teach game design?
First 70 then if you want the casey style gameplay programming. I don't think HMH's gameplay is anything notable and there are better resources for that topic. It's more about deeply understanding all the systems you are using and building something incredibly complex from scratch.
>I don't think HMH's gameplay is anything notable
Because it isn't there. The project is unfinished, many systems a game uses just aren't there
>I would disagree
Because you don't know what the frick you're talking about
It's like some due who changed a tire saying he can build a car. This is an exaggeration but you get the point
I see. Well that still doesn't explain what this thread is about. If you have this opinion, maybe you should email it to him or post it on the forum. Him and his viewers are not likely to see it here. It's like posting complaints about a product you own here instead of to the company's official support.
It makes little sense. What's the end goal?
Why the frick would I tell him? I'm telling other people so they know to stay away from this poster
Why should people here care or listen to a random Anonymous? From my perspective you seem like someone just goading for attention and you already shot yourself in the foot once. You also have no credit or even an alternative. It'd be different if you had published a successful game or were suggesting some other resource, but you have not yet.
I'm not convinced this thread is anything more than a pasttime.
Not sure what you mean.
Alternative? The alternative to listening to a blowhard is not listening to a blowhard, it's quite simple
An alternative resource to learn game programming. You haven't posted any. So as-is his still seems like a valuable resource to learn various aspects of game engines.
You seem to be hung up on game design, and are discrediting the ones he's worked on because you personally don't like them (which seems irrelevant to his education material on technical implementations).
What's your alternative offer that is also freely available and that in-depth.
I don't need to post an alternative to critcize him you fricking apologist
I didn't say anything about game design, I just said that the project is incomplete. I liked The Witness, good game, but he contributed like 1% to it
His video series is useful if you want to know how to interact with native Win32, that's about it to be honest, when he gets into the engine stuff he becomes autistic and spends a super long time on simple stuff (probably because of the way he programs)
I see. Well you convinced me to check it out. Sounds like a good resource.
>you convinced me to check it out
Why are you pretending to be an unbiased observer instead of the Casey defense force
I'm not sure what you mean. You're throwing a tantrum and I'm asking you what you're upset about. You then proceed to argue against yourself. You just said it was a good resource and now you're getting mad at me for telling you I'll check it out.
I really don't understand what's wrong with you and I certainly tried to ask you.
He can be long winded when it comes to teaching some things and goes on tangents, like it takes him a really long time to say something. It feels like the last 5 minutes of a half hour long talk was all he needed much of the time. I am subscribed to his performance aware programming series and this is my only real criticism
go back
...what game systems are not present? The gameplay is rudimentary but it has collision, events, interactable objects, animation, particles, all sorts of stuff. He isn't a game designer and didn't spend time making gameplay, but he still made an entire game codebase from scratch and provided a ton of educational resources in the process. What exactly are you trying to prove?
>an entire game codebase
It's not an entire game codebase, it's the pre-gameplay codebase, which is smaller than the gameplay included codebase, which doesn't exist
Okay, now you're making shit up. HMH is a zelda clone and has fully playable if basic mechanics, it has no levels because Casey has not spent any time in the series on content creation.
>has fully playable if basic mechanics
no it doesn't, there's no gameplay, when he left it off he was still working on engine stuff
Just because you can hop around and control a character it doesn't mean there is "gameplay"
What you described is gameplay, running on his game engine.
At episode 70 there are enemies, projectiles, different rooms, a combat system, and items. Stop lying if you ever want to be taken seriously.
Here's some "gameplay" from episode 591
?t=1100
This is pre-alpha stuff. This is about the first 20% of actually programming a video game
Almost like the entire point of the series is teaching how to do engine stuff from scratch. You know this, everyone knows this, but your agenda forces you to pretend to be a moron.
>how to do engine stuff from scratch
The title says "game from scratch"
If you want to backpedal to "the first 20% of game or the engine from scratch" then ok
It says “teach you to make a game from scratch”. By the time you’ve done all the hard engine stuff you know. Unless you think placing triggers and writing response code is the real hard part of gamedev.
>By the time you’ve done all the hard engine stuff you know.
This is hilariously naive
What he's done is the easy stuff, the pre-alpha stuff, he just makes it LOOK hard because of his autism and lack of geniune experience. He wastes a lot of think waxing philosophical on shit that has easy answers
>writing a movement component from scratch is the easy part
Try making one. Please, try it. Try even modifying the one you get in Unreal. Let me know how it goes. A collision response is an absolute piece of piss by comprison.
Casey's game is a dude that hops around on a grid
>doesn't know what from scratch means
sad
Casey made Handmade Hero out of a nostalgic desire to code a complete game from scratch, understanding the whole stack. Amazingly he decided to turn it into a weekly livestream and teach everyone else along the way. And being as knowledgeable as he is, he decided to go all-out and incorporate everything he has learned about game development in an accumulated life of 40+ years of experience. The series is extremely low-level, but he will not skip any details because he wants the viewers to get to know absolutely everything about professional game development. But 40 years of experience can't be easily condensed, so it has taken a long time.
If he took any shortcuts at all, the game would have been completed long ago, but he stayed true to his original ideals because that's the purpose of the project. His efforts so far have led to a community of people passionate about low-level programming, known as the Handmade Network. He has inspired a generation of programmers who carry a craftsman mentality to developing software and a healthy dislike for inefficiencies. I reckon that his impact on the world is far beyond even his own understanding & he released this resource completely for free. Spending his time teaching basics to newbies on the Internet for free when he could've been doing a bazillion other things.
So shut the frick up. You don't know what you're talking about.
>If he took any shortcuts at all, the game would have been completed long ago
I'm not even a hater but this is false, he's not just taking a long way there, he's willingly not adding any gameplay or anything that would turn it into a real finished game, because he doesn't want to do that and he'd rather just mess around with lighting and other engine level stuff forever.
In fact it would be worse if it was like you say, because it would mean that making a game from scratch with no shortcuts really is impossibly slow (thousands of hours and not finished).
If he just stopped adding weird experimental engine features and just made the game he would have finished it years ago, shortcuts or no shortcuts.
cope, truly skilled guys can always do both
Is this Casey?
That motherfricker is the most arrogant dumb frick I’ve ever heard, like the American version of the British Smug Bastard.
You can tell he is an absolute nightmare to work with and probably does YouTube because he keeps getting fired due to being an utter autist on bad takes and mole hills to die on
>person who claims "abstractions and tooling bad, everything should be nested for loops written in Notepad++" never delivers
I am shocked, I never could have seen this coming.
>abstractions and tooling bad, everything should be nested for loops written in Notepad++
holy based
>pajeet code by white s°ydev
🙂
>pajeet code by pajeet
8-(
sirs cant stop winning
lmao hi Casey
At least he didn't spend 10 years making a language no one will ever use
Loud, arrogant aspie with bad taste. Many such cases in software development!
Holy fricking shit that geeky ass voice compared to how he looks and talks. He looks like the guy who sells you drugs. And he talks like an unhinged thot and looks like one.
yaps about what game development and programming SHOULD be for many years
Show me his best of best cause I bet this guy sucks ass compared to my ideas.
There are good video games out there which tried heavily experimental things, but they were never popular. Popularity is always something easy to digest, not something experimental, Grand Theft Auto would be dogshit without the car thieving & police chases. Nobody plays GTA for the car racing, taxi driving, minigames RC vehicle bombing, etc. etc.
stop samegayging Black person
64/15/5/1
fricking idiot
Shut the frick up and learn English, ESL. Go back to India you stupid goat fricking Black person. I don't even care how innacurate that is. Fricking samegays projects their Black personism onto everyone. Go be a troony somewhere else.
>Fricking samegays projects
me ESL
good morning
Good morning to you too, pajeeta troony.
does it feel good to know only playground insults? I can't tell whether you're bad at trolling or actually moronic
>bad at trolling
>but it worked on you
jej
>hahah I got u haha you saw correctly I was baiting hahaha
?
You're the one that called it bait but you replied anyway. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so but you replied regardless.
When will you learn to use capitals and punctuation, zoom zoom?
DO NOT REDEEM, SIR.
SIRS, MADAM, SIRS
DO NOT REDEEM
~3 people having a conversation is not "samegayging" you mongoloid.
How embarrassing. It's a meme you dip. I think probably from Ganker.
not sure if you have posted in this thread casey but i just want to know that i saw you scrolling it :>
want you to know* that i saw u scrolling it
for someone who didn't get trolled you sure sound upset :^)
we're reaching levels of projection that shouldn't even plbe possible
>projection
>implying not actually upset
read this post and tell me what emotion its author is feeling then
>noooo I must be right
>the words don't lie!!!
you're seething, I feel the heat, I see the steam coming out of your ears
you don't want to admit it, but you can't deny it
>off by one
brb gonna an hero
we're reaching levels of projection that shouldn't even plbe possible
>plbe
ohayou esl-kun
see your own post dingus
Just because I space the paragraphs? Or does he have some other similarity? Maybe I'll try to befriend him if he's cool.
>then yes, I will call you dishonest, because it's totally insigificant and you're just trying to win an argument on a technicality
More irony. You're the one bending "verifiable facts" and doing just what I claimed, moving objective into subjective. You're being dishonest. Completely.
>The tone of all your posts is dishonest
What does that even mean. It's plain text with no emotion behind it. You're making this up in your own mind.
>fake nice
???
Pretty sure I directly insulted you multiple times and my who argument is that you're bad at arguing (negative).
>generally hiding your real intentions
Again you're making this up. My intention is to pass the time discussing with you here because you felt the need to make a thread about it, presumably for the same reason. To talk about something.
I sincerely hope you're not being serious. This better be some kind of cope or trick. If you're being for real you're either underage, nuts, or both.
In any case you're not good at arguing and you haven't convince me otherwise. And I doubt you're not going to convince anyone else either. Sorry if that makes you mad or whatever is going on to make you degrade to posts like you're making now. Completely off topic and baseless; borderline schizophrenic.
>I just know you have some hidden agenda, because uhhh I just feel it in the tone of your voice
>It's plain text with no emotion behind it.
That's not how online communication works bro
Well its your word against mine (the author). Whatever "tone" you think I'm writing in is something you fabricated when reading it. And doesn't change what's being said regardless. Sorry if my emotionless babble came across as whatever it even is you think it was.
Dude I don't care about your autism
All I care about is exposing Casey as not having experience in the topic he's talking about
I can demonstrate this with sourced facts
That's a good argument
You think I need to provide an alternative to his tutorial and this would somehow make my argument more convincing, that's illogical, I don't care what tutorial anyone uses
>Guy who has worked on game tools, was brought in to program stuff on the Witness and other games, and even made a shitty hamster game is somehow not a game programmer
What are you even saying at this point? You sound like you just want to dislike him.
He hasn't done a lot of work on games. He's done a small amount of work on games, and a majority of his work on game-adjencent tools, that does not put him in a position where he can tell people how to program game engines, because he lacks experience with this
>You're asking people to not listen to him
I'm telling people who he is and why he's not a authority on the topic, whether you listen to him or not is up to you. I'm not giving advice. I can find a good tutorial in 5-10 minutes on Google, but it's not worth the time seeing you apparently don't even give a shit about game development and are just here to be autistic
"tool" in this context would probably be called "middleware" today. It runs at runtime as part of a game engine. You know his skeletal animation code is running right now in tons of games, right? http://www.radgametools.com/granny/customers.html
The claim about lacking experience with game engines is also interesting, because he has a 30 year career working on game engines. Why bother lying about that?
>he has a 30 year career working on game engines
Source?
Granny is an outdated tool and isn't used much anymore, but it was a good tool afaik. But making Granny doesn't mean you know anything about game engines, it USED by game engines, but it is not a game engine. The other thing he worked on was Bink, which is just a video game. Designed for games, but really it could just be used anywhere, there's nothing really game adjacent about video playback
>there's nothing really game adjacent about video playback
>video game
>VIDEO game
The entire concept is about rendering video frames to the screen.
If you worked on a video codec or VLC or MPC or whatever would that mean you knew something about game engines?
https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1412839131063873536
Here he lists basically everything he ever worked on, note the multiple game engines listed. Your attempts at drawing the line do not make any sense. I'm a tools programmer for games and I could absolutely be called a game programmer because of that.
There's basically two engines on here. Sushi Bar Samurai and his Indie Game Jam engine. I wasn't aware of this, so I'll retract my statement that he has basically no game experience
My new statement is he only has experience working on very small game projects
It's not that impressive.
There's so much non game related shit like a website CRM and a mail server, and a stream overlay that he only uses in his own stream, and that he admits it's essentially a shitty weekend project
>This program is totally hacky. Don't expect it to work particularly well without a fair bit of care and attention.
>It's also super sloppy, like you pass printf arguments in from the settings file right now. So DON'T EXPECT A WELL WRITTEN PROGRAM. This is not one of those. This is the opposite of that.
There are multiple iterations of Granny, and he didn’t work on all of them (the only proof I was ever able to find, at all, was a thanks from another developer). It’s also not used anymore, because it wasn’t terribly well made, nor complex enough to not be replicated by other developers (unlike all the other RAD tools).
>I'm telling people who he is and why he's not a authority on the topic,
I'm telling you that what you're saying isn't convincing and you'll need something better than what you presented.
>but it's not worth the time seeing you apparently don't even give a shit about game development
So what? You clearly do, and so do the people you want to speak to. I'm not asking you to post it for my benefit ding dong, I'm telling you it would help you to do so. You're taking advice as if it's an attack against you. I guess it was my "tone" that made you feel that way, or probably my hidden agenda to openly tell you why you're a clown and how to appear less like a moronic child when trying to make a convincing argument.
Repeatedly claiming something is trivially easy but not being able to prove it, while spending infinitley more time crying about schizoshit, makes you look like a moronic schizo clown child.
>you'll need something better than what you presented.
I present the facts, or opinions if I have any. Beyond that I don't know what you expect. You're asking me to provide an alternative to his tutorial, I'm not trying to convince anyone not to use his tutorial
I don't know what you're asking me to prove either. Do you want me to source my claims for what he worked on? here https://www.mobygames.com/person/58691/casey-muratori/credits/ Two game programming credits
>I'm not trying to convince anyone not to use his tutorial
That seems like an odd thing to say while also saying
>I'm trying to convince people not to listen to him, especially in regards to him speaking about video games
It seems like 1 includes the other.
>I don't know what you're asking me to prove either.
I'm not asking you to prove anything, I'm just pointing out why your arguments are not convincing.
You're harping on the alternative thing as if it's the only thing mentioned in this thread.
>Do you want me to source my claims for what he worked on?
No. That would hurt your own claims but you did it anyway.
First you said he's never worked on any games, then it was 1, then it was 1 + helped on some other games, now it's 1 + others + 2 from a popular studio. And all of these sources came from yourself. Against your initial claim.
You're literally arguing against yourself, then you get mad when I point out your ability to argue is shit and won;t convince anyone to listen to you. I'm not trying to be mean when I say that, I'm just pointing it out in case you want to try to improve. If you care enough to make threads and argue about it like this, I assume you might want to invest the time getting better at it.
>It seems like 1 includes the other.
It doesn't
>First you said he's never worked on any games
No I didn't, you just took my original post out of context, which is what dishonest people do which is why I'm wary of the things you say
>It doesn't
Well I'd say otherwise. His courses require you to listen to him speak about games. Which you seem to think he has no authority on.
>out of context
A true nodev
>He hasn't programmed a game either he literally spent 7 years making a "program a game from scratch" tutorial and didn't move past the first 20%
>A true nodev
Now:
>okay maybe he has programmed some games and engines and I retract my statement
Hmmm....
Clearly he has done programming on a game because in the same sentence I mention he's working on a game tutorial. My implication there was he hasn't seen a game through from start to finish. I looked at his MobyGames page and it turns out he has, he has seen one game through from start to finish, something that looks like a middle school project from 2004
Which means basically the same thing, he has insufficient experience in the topic he's speaking on
The problem is you're saying "verifiable facts", which they are but you haven't verified them and are confidently claiming the opposite of the truth.
You're now trying to switch from objective facts to subjective opinion which people aren't likely to respect as much, if at all.
You think he has insufficient experience in the topic he's speaking on, but what I've seen is that sentence applies to you and not him.
>you haven't verified them
https://www.mobygames.com/person/58691/casey-muratori/credits/
What point are you trying to make by linking this?
Your claim was that he hasn't programmed games, after verifying, he has in fact created games.
You even admitted to this a few posts ago.
The thread can verify you're not a credible source yourself in your own claims. You're bad at this which is why my own statements have expressed doubt in your ability to succeed at your goal of convincing anyone of anything related to this topic.
OP is trolling me but my intention was to waste my own time as a form of recreation. We're both getting what we want.
You took my claim out of context
I elaborated on my claim and you chose to ignore it, because you're just here to win an argument
Pointless waste of time, I'm not trying to convince people like you
>I elaborated on my claim
Doesn't change what I said.
>you chose to ignore it
I did not. Maybe you're mixing me up. Or assuming that because we changed focus that I ignored the rest.
Regardless, you proved yourself to not be reliable in your claims. It doesn't matter if you amend them later. You keep doing that which shows you haven't done your own homework, which is what you're getting upset at others for.
>because you're just here to win an argument
I'm not even arguing. I'm telling you you're bad at arguing and how you could fix that. It's casual discussion and nothing more. You know, the thing this place is designed for. It's not debate club.
>Pointless waste of time, I'm not trying to convince people like you
Again this doesn't matter. What I'm telling you applies to the people you are trying to convince, whether you want to believe it or not. Nobody is going to listen to you when you spout opinions as facts, and are wrong about each of your claims.
You're getting upset at my statement and trying to convince me otherwise, you're the one trying to make 2 arguments, not me. I'm just telling you the truth, it's not meant to be argumentative.
>I'm telling you you're bad at arguing
I'm not. You're trying to win an argument you don't give a shit about on a technicality. I don't care about convincing people like you. I care about people like this
Lay his actual work out for all to see and people can go there and see that he doesn't have the expertise he claims
>You're trying to win an argument you don't give a shit about on a technicality
You're claiming that you're arguing based on verifiable facts. You're making such claims. And you're wrong, so people are not likely to listen to you as a result.
That is one of my claims. You're arguing on technicalities, and think that people will not retort in the same manner. You're also talking about dishonesty while you've been nothing but dishonest yourself.
You're conflating that because I point this out, I must be one of the people trying to argue it. When all I'm doing is saying such a tactic won't work and is worse for your credit than anything else.
>I don't care about convincing people like you. I care about people like this
Doesn't matter at all because you're so bad at this that you won't convince anyone.
Your best argument against such a claim is
>I'm not
which probably doesn't even convince yourself.
Talk about winning on a technicality, I'm winning on a no-contest.
I was incorrect in saying that he hadn't seen any games through from start to finish
He has created and released Stunt Hamsters (2004, Windows)
Hopefully now my credibility has been restored
Fair enough. However there's more things you've said.
Since I have no dog in this fight I'll let other Anons engage with that. But to specify what I'm referencing; your subjective claims that he has no experience or authority in game development despite what looks like many years on many different game related projects, both his own, others, tools, and middleware libraries - some if not most of which are pretty successful.
You know that was sarcasm right. Are you geniunely autistic?
>what looks like many years on many different game related projects
He has made minor contributions to one successful project (The Witness). Outside of that he has 3 game jam games and Stunt Hamsters. All of these games are very small. His game are weekend projects
He also worked on Granny and Bink, game related but not actual game development, you aren't actually making games
This does not put him in a position of authority. As far as games go, this puts below average compared to an average senior programmer at a regular game company
Also in case that was not yours.
>... he has not programmed a game
>All I care about is exposing Casey as not having experience in the topic he's talking about
We've established that already.
>I can demonstrate this with sourced facts
Unfortunately you can't. You tried and failed already. Hence why:
>That's a good argument
Is not the case.
>You think I need to provide an alternative to his tutorial and this would somehow make my argument more convincing, that's illogical, I don't care what tutorial anyone uses
I think it would certainly help for the reason I pointed out already. You're asking people to not listen to him. If they're already using him as a resource to learn, they're not going to be easily convinced without a better alternative. Which you claim is easy to find, but are not able to provide yourself. Let alone be verified by Anons here.
I understand you don't like hearing it, but it is what it is. Your post comes across as unfounded whining with no practical advice so it's likely just going to be ignored by the people you want to convince.
>I can demonstrate this with sourced facts
>continues to provide none
His Mobygames page and his own twitter post where he lists off his projects were both provided
>I can prove he hasn't worked on anything
>here is a list of the things he's worked on
He's worked on game jam games and a pathfinding system for the witness
a random engine dev off Ganker is almost more accomplished than casey when it comes to just games
Actually I know quite well what he's worked on, I'm just enjoying watching you bury yourself in irrational hatred for someone you've never met
I don't hate him
>I don't hate him
>I just want to spend all this effort trying to convince people he's not credible despite his credible history
irrational
I know it's hard for low IQ people to understand but disagreeing with someone on something doesn't mean you dislike them as a person
You can say that but it doesn't make it so. You're willing to put effort into telling people not to listen to him without any basis and disregard facts. This is clearly unfounded personal bias without reason.
I've clearly explained why I disagree with him
Your rationales have been objectively wrong and your excuse for that boils down to a subjective "I just personally don't like aspects about him so you shouldn't either". This looks like a grudge more than anything else.
>Your rationales have been objectively wrong
9 years
600 streams
No finished game
>No finished game
You linked a list of finished games yourself. Case in point.
Handmade Hero was not finished
Casey himself has one finished game, which is a weekend project
What's your point? Again this boils down to some arbitrary metric you've made up. You're acting like because it's not finished yet that it's not a good resource. What's your actual objective claim against the material in question? Do you even have one? Because it looks like you're focused on his reputation as if it's a bad thing when it appears to be good, as well as the fact his current project isn't done as if this somehow detracts from what already exists.
>What's your point?
Casey lacks experience with many parts of game development
>What's your actual objective claim against the material in question? Do you even have one?
Read the thread
I have read the thread and it looks like you're still focused on an arbitrary subjective metric.
You're saying Casey lacks the experience, but his track record shows otherwise.
You're being asked for objective criticism and you can't provide any. Your own posts are making claims that he's a good resource so you don't even seem consistent in your own opinions. Is this bait?
His track record is a small contribution to The Witness and gamejam games. Not very good
My objective criticism is his tutorial series is far, FAR too long and he didn't finish the game.
Don't get baited, just walk away.
>What's your actual objective claim against the material in question?
NTA but he roped a bunch of new programmers into a course without making it clear that it would take a decade to actually reach its advertised goal. That's really bad.
>without making it clear that it would take a decade to actually reach its advertised goal
Just to add to this, he didn't reach the goal, his last video was 10 months ago and it's still a long way from any finished state
>without making it clear that it would take a decade to actually reach its advertised goal
Isn't this implied with the "solo dev from scratch"?
Are you implying once it's finished that people should then listen to him?
Probably a good idea. I seriously doubt this isn't someone flip flopping on purpose.
>Are you implying once it's finished that people should then listen to him?
If it was finished I wouldn't even be making this complaint. I haven't said don't listen to him, I've said don't follow his example. There's a difference
>I haven't said don't listen to him
ctrl-f your own thread my guy
>I'm just trying to convince people not to listen to Casey
>I've said don't follow his exampl
What example do you follow then?
But he's not just developing a game, he's explaining every step of the process. That's a huge difference.
And he's only doing it part time. Someone else already pointed out he's spent less than half a year on the project in terms of man hours, not span. That's not a fair comparison.
Are you the same guy making the same arguments back for round two? If so I'm not interested in just retreading the same shit again
Follow the example of people who get shit done
>I already had this discussion, please read the thread
>>ok, I did. you said x
>well I never said x
like you said x
>I don't want to talk about this anymore
bait confirmed
Casey rarely says anything that is untrue. I'm not saying if he talks about a particular topic, that he is wrong about a topic
What I am saying is that you shouldn't follow his example as a person, you shouldn't do things the way he does things and you shouldn't look towards him as a teacher. Why do I say this? 9 years, 600 streams, no game
>What I am saying is that you shouldn't follow his example as a person, you shouldn't do things the way he does things and you shouldn't look towards him as a teacher. Why do I say this? 9 years, 600 streams, no game
Someone will be offended by this extremely reasonable and measured take and I find that funny
You don't want to discuss it and you're trolling so I don't know why you expected me to read your reply.
I am discussing it with you right now. You're the person who's avoiding discussion
>I'm not interested in just retreading the same shit again
If you're not willing to discuss it then what's the point of even reading it? It's bait isn't it?
Are you the same guy?
Which post? Reply to it.
Then you aren't the same guy, so I'm open to discussion, just saying we're repeating what I already said earlier in the thread
I am the same AI, I mean guy
You shouldn't assume everyone who disagrees with you is the same guy.
>just saying we're repeating what I already said earlier in the thread
You literally told me to read the thread. If this isn't bait then you're an imbecile not worth dealing with.
Get to the point and stop trying to have a meta discussion about the discussion
What point? You were already proven wrong about multiple things, told me to reference them, and when they were was brought back up you said you don't want to engage with it anymore. Now you're backpedaling in the other direction. I hope you're not being serious.
The fact that I was proven wrong about him not completing a game, that he had infact completed a very basic game 10 years ago and a few game jam games, does not change the point at all
I don't even know what you're getting at and I don't care since you're not willing to engage with it.
I'm not surprised.
I am willing to engage, I told you, I asked you to get to the point and now you're telling me you don't want to talk about it because apparently I'm not willing to talk about it. Are you a woman? This is getting hilarious
You told me 2 things now both of which were wrong. Acting as if people can't search the thread. One of which was that you don't want to talk about it, now you're saying the opposite. There's no chance you're being sincere and are probably just trying to get replies. You'll have to convince me somehow if you actually want to talk serious.
>You'll have to convince me somehow if you actually want to talk serious.
You're definitely a woman. Are you hot? My answer depends on this
Case in point.
I am willing to engage with you honestly if you are willing to talk to me honestly
I don't think so, and you've shown otherwise. Seemingly for the entire thread to multiple anons and now you're doing it to me.
>*lies*
>jk I can be serious
>are you le woman XD
Cool dude. Good talk.
I have been completely honest about my motivations the entire thread, which is more than I can say about the people who reply to me. My point remains the same, the people replying me just try to pick apart what I say because they aren't man enough to just come out and say what their grievance is so we can have an honest discussion
Well except for one guy who said he appreciates the handmade network
>my fee fees and speculations
Woman moment.
Who said anything about feelings? I'm not the dude who is playing hard to get saying "I'm only gonna reply if I know I can trust you"
Honest discussions are better than dishonest ones
>I prefer honest discussion
>except when you pick apart my arguments with honest refutation
>my head canon tells me they're being dishonest because they're 'not man enough', I can just feel it. they must be personally invested in this thing I don't like
I said that he didn't have experience seeing a game through from start to finish. This turns into calling me a liar because he actually had made a few game jam games I was unaware of. This new information doesn't change the original point at all - Casey lacks experience actually making games. These small games don't change this fact
You're not even talking about either of the things I mentioned. If this isn't a joke you're obviously not even capable of participating in the discussion you keep wanting me to join in on. Let alone are you honest. If this isn't some kind of ironic joke then I don't know what your issue is. It's too wrong to be an accident.
So what am I lying about exactly?
In the few posts we interacted you lied about 2 things which I pointed out then you said you didn't want to talk about it. Then you proceeded to ironically retread the things you said you didn't want to without anyone else even engaging you on it. The previous posts I read at the beginning of the thread show how inconsistent you are even of your own opinion and our interaction validates this for me. You're highly dishonest. It looks like you're doing it on purpose.
I want to talk about it. What did I lie about? I'm quite curious at this point
Me being unaware of something and subsequently correcting myself is not a lie, nor is you misunderstanding something I said and having my words appear inconsistent
>I want to talk about i
I would too, but not with you.
>What did I lie about?
A bunch of things before my post such as his works. And with me specifically you claimed you never said something when you did in this very thread, right after telling me to read your posts. An immediate disregard for an easily verified truth. Just like you've done with the man's professional reputation. Totally bogus and for no clear reason besides to bait replies.
Me being unaware of something and subsequently correcting myself is not a lie
Whatever you say. If you want to discuss it you can email me later since the thread is about to die.
[email protected]
That's been the entire thread.
>he has no experience
>actually I looked and he does
>don't listen to him his advice is bad
>actually I think he has good advice
>I don't want to talk about this
>actually I do now
etc.
OP might have an actual disorder. He was going schizo earlier.
You deliberately reframe what I say to try and win an argument on a technicality because you can't argue the actual point
Dishonest
>But he's not just developing a game, he's explaining every step of the process. That's a huge difference.
He's making an extremely simple game and started off doing daily streams. As someone who was around when the project was launched the expectation was that a playable version of the game would be released after the first year of development.
>Isn't this implied with the "solo dev from scratch"?
Absolutely not, are you suggesting all solo dev games take more than a decade to complete? I thought you were LARPing like you were experienced in the industry, if you actually are you should know better than that.
i cant tell which one of you is trolling the other anymore. that's remarkable.
i feel like i've been on a journey with you both. i dont want to let go.
You activated my trap card.
>You know that was sarcasm right
Your tone suggested otherwise.
>This does not put him in a position of authority. As far as games go, this puts below average compared to an average senior programmer at a regular game company
You're entitled to your opinion but I already told you what you need to do if you want to convince other people to adopt it.
Give some good reasoning to back up your claims, and provide an alternative to listen to instead.
As it stands many many people disagree at least enough to listen to him speak about game development, and at least some of the people learning from his lessons have made software based on what they learned.
Why you want to deter people from that, I don't know. You're acting like he has to be immaculate to provide some value.
mid lessons from a mid game dev are going to be better than none. If you know high level game devs putting out educational content then by all means, recommend it.
>mid lessons from a mid game dev
Casey isn't a mid game dev. He's a smart guy, and a good programmer, but he has done barely any game dev, he's below average in that regard
I provded my reasoning in the post you just replied to. His game credits are very small, weekend projects. This doesn't put you in a position of authority to tell others how to program games.
>many many people disagree at least enough to listen to him speak about game development
The people who listen to him beginners who don't know any better. They see his list of credits and, like you do, think it sounds impressive because they don't really understand it. His credits are middleware and small projects.
>His game credits are very small, weekend projects. This doesn't put you in a position of authority to tell others how to program games.
Why not? He's at least published a game and worked on games, which implies he knows enough to do so and can try to impart that on others.
The topic he's most confident on is 3D rendering and game engines which is what he seems to have the most experience in, again not just solo but in concert with companies and other individuals, so it's not some isolated skill. You're saying so yourself in this very post.
>His credits are middleware and small projects.
I'm going to have to ask you to start providing some examples that discredit him rather than what you propose is a lack of credit.
Point out examples that demonstrate why he shouldn't be listened to, places where his information related to game development is bad.
This would be more convincing that just saying "well he might not know how", prove he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Because everything else suggests he knows what he's talking about.
>Why not? He's at least published a game and worked on games
Because they're tiny fricking games. Game jam games. Games that take a weekend to make. If you want to get your house built, would you hire someone who said "oh yeah I've put up a shelf let me tell you about carpentry"?
>The topic he's most confident on is 3D rendering and game engines which is what he seems to have the most experience in
Where are you pulling this from? He hasn't put out anything 3D and the only engines he's made were toy projects
>Point out examples that demonstrate why he shouldn't be listened to
I could do that but we'd be here all night
Are you really still gonna pretend you're unbiased here, you seem to know a bit about Casey
>Because they're tiny fricking games. Game jam games.
Aren't you claiming the people listening to him are beginners? That seems appropriate then.
>If you want to get your house built, would you hire someone who said "oh yeah I've put up a shelf let me tell you about carpentry"?
As opposed to what? Someone from /agdg/ that has never even finished a game let alone worked on several commercial products for several decades straight?
I'd rather the person that knows enough to do the task over nobody.
>He hasn't put out anything 3D
All of his tools and middlewear are related to 3D, most of the things he talks about are related to 3D graphics which you can verify the merit and efficacy of.
>the only engines he's made were toy projects
Again, feel free to present something better if you can. But again, small projects are better than no projects.
>I could do that but we'd be here all night
We've already been here all night and have all day. Trying to joke your way out of it isn't going to convince anyone.
>Are you really still gonna pretend you're unbiased here, you seem to know a bit about Casey
You've been posting about him with citations this whole thread. Of course I'm reading them.
Just because you prove yourself wrong doesn't somehow imply bias. That makes no sense.
Thanks Anon.
I agree with this part most especially
>he's referenced by a lot of people in senior/lead positions as a resource
bruh
>Aren't you claiming the people listening to him are beginners?
Well yeah but that's the blind leading the blind at this point
>All of his tools and middlewear are related to 3D
Granny's an animation tool, doesn't do rendering
Bink is for video, not 3D graphics
You really want me to trawl through his thousnds of hours of content to find things I specifically disagree with and refute them to satisfy you?
just one thing would be helpful. im not the guy you are arguing with im just trying to figure out if im wasting my time by watching his stuff occasionally.
>im just trying to figure out if im wasting my time by watching his stuff occasionally.
No. I don't think it is. He's rarely flat out wrong on a particular topic. I just think that if you want to learn to make a video game from scratch, you shouldn't sit down and watch thousands of hours of Handmade Hero and try to follow along
>You really want me to trawl through his thousnds of hours of content to find things I specifically disagree with and refute them to satisfy you?
You really want me to listen to a random Anonymous with no evidence whatsoever telling me to not listen to a guy that has pages of references and thousands of hours doing the thing he apparently isn't capable of doing?
>He hasn't put out anything 3D
>one project literally called Granny 3D
>With over 5,200 titles shipped
cite: https://caseymuratori.com/work
http://www.radgametools.com/granny.html
>currently working on a 3D game and streaming the development
>I'm going to have to ask you to start providing some examples that discredit him rather than what you propose is a lack of credit.
>Point out examples that demonstrate why he shouldn't be listened to, places where his information related to game development is bad.
>This would be more convincing that just saying "well he might not know how", prove he doesn't know what he's talking about.
>Because everything else suggests he knows what he's talking about.
ive got to say this is a pretty conclusive dismantling of OPs position. so far OPs argument has boiled down to "well he hasn't been credited as being in a senior/lead position on anything of note" as a reason not to listen to him... but OP he's referenced by a lot of people in senior/lead positions as a resource and indirectly having contributed to their or their games/companies success - both individually and by reference to his tools.
i guess the anon you are arguing with has crystalised it pretty well; you're saying I shouldn't listen to him despite these things? how come? is he just wrong about a lot of stuff or?
>you're saying I shouldn't listen to him despite these things?
I'm saying if you want to make a game you shouldn't listen to him tell you how to do it
But if you have a question on a specific technical subject that he knows about, his opinion could be quite valuable
his resources are just a long series of him showing you how to do specific things. i dont think he has a "this is how to make a video game" course. he has handmade hero which is a series of things about making specific systems from absolute scratch that you would have to do if you were also making a game from absolute scratch... it's pretty up front about that.
>i dont think he has a "this is how to make a video game" course
Handmade Hero is literally "let's make a video game from scratch", the title is something to that effect. It turn into a long series of tutorials of him showing you how to do specific things. If you want to do that specific thing it might be a valuable video, but on a whole, as a tutorial to make a game? Hell no
A video game from scratch requires a game engine and that's what those topics primarily cover. What's the issue?
He has only covered the first 20-30% of a game from scratch and it could have been covered in a MUCH shorter period of time
I haven't watched it that much, obviously, it's thousands of hours, but apparently he transitions it from a 2D game into a 3D game somewhere along the way
>He has only covered the first 20-30% of a game from scratch and it could have been covered in a MUCH shorter period of time
So what? As
points out
>He has spent less than half a year of actual dev time on the project
This is a single person. Video games with full time teams working daily take years to develop and that's on top of existing code bases. And in that half of a year he's not just developing, he's lecturing every time which takes up the majority or the time.
Are you really giving him grief for this? When his intention is to provide the information, not the game as a product.
That's why people shouldn't listen to him? Because he hasn't completed a game by himself from scratch in half of a year?
>So what?
So it's not a full game from scratch
>Are you really giving him grief for this? When his intention is to provide the information
The human brain has a limited capacity for information. There's only so many hours in a day. Do you want to learn how to make a game or do you want to hear him knowledge dump everything he knows about programming regardless of its utility to intended goal? If it's the latter, well, you can be a nodev like he is. If you want to learn how to make games, I suggest someone else
>So it's not a full game from scratch
This is objectively false. You can see from start to finish, including the first lines.
>Do you want to learn how to make a game or do you want to hear him knowledge dump everything he knows about programming regardless of its utility to intended goal?
He's programming a game and speaking on that, it's tied to the goal. You're not making any sense.
> it's the latter, well, you can be a nodev like he is. If you want to learn how to make games, I suggest someone else
Anon I'm sorry but you are not allowed to say this at all. Instead of making a game you've been arguing for several hours, and trying to convince other people not to learn.
This is a foul and you are being placed in time-out for 5 minutes. Open your editor and make progress in that time.
>You can see from start to finish
It ain't finished
You're supposed to be in time out. Post screenshot of your editor and game progress.
>I suggest someone else
who do you suggest?
im getting very close to announcing the winner of the thread unless
you can point to at least one piece of bad advice this guy is giving out. at this point it just seems like you are strawmanning him tbh. here's a sporting analogy of what you are doing:
don't listen to this running coach if you want to go to the olympics and win a gold medal
>anon he's not teaching how to go to the olympics, he's a running coach. he teaches runners how to get better at running, showing them how to warm up, not injure themselves, improve on technique
no you dont understand if you want to learn any of those things that he's teaching then okay, but dont listen to him about winning olympic gold medals
>don't listen to this running coach if you want to go to the olympics and win a gold medal
Bad analogy
sounds like admitting defeat
Coaches exist in a support role, their primary purpose is not to teach. A better analogy is "why should I listen to this professor who has no accomplishments in his field"? And it's a good question to ask. You don't neccessarily need to be good at the thing you're teaching to teach it well. Some teachers might actually be better at teaching than people who DO know their job well, because they're better at communicating or whatever. The problem is Casey uses his platform to satisfy his own ego rather than to teach - his teaching resources are bad because they meander and don't get to the point
I'd hear the argument that his teaching resources may suffer from his lack of expert conveyance, but I posit that doesn't imply they're bad. Just not as good as they could be. The information he (eventually) conveys may still be worth putting up with his deficit.
And when presented with no alternative people have to take what they can get regardless.
Nobody is providing good alternatives, even on individual aspects, let alone the entirety of his works.
Doesn't change the fact. It's a game, made from scratch.
You can download it and play with it right now. So no part of what you said applies.
It's only going to get more complete over time, not less.
>his teaching resources may suffer from his lack of expert conveyance
Casey is an expert on most of the things he talks about. The one thing he isn't an expert on is actually making the fricking game, from scratch, so it is not
>Handmade Hero is an ongoing project by Casey Muratori to create a complete, professional-quality game accompanied by videos that explain every single line of its source code.
It is
>Handmade Hero is an abandoned by Casey Muratori where he spent 7 years, hundreds of videos, and thousands of hours of content, explaining how to make the first 20% of the game, then got bored and went onto something new that doesn't have a goal so he doesn't need to be held accountable to reality
If that's the kind of guy you want to listen to, it's your funeral
Where is the statement saying he's not going to work on it anymore because it looks like livestreams are still happening. Which implies it is in fact an ongoing project.
As for "20%", I think it's reasonable considering what was already said and doesn't change anything. The information exists and is enough to make a game with. Why is this supposed to be bad?
>it looks like livestreams are still happening
They aren't, he soft quit, I don't think there's an announcement but he's moved onto Starcode Galaxy or whatever were he just ideologically indoctrinates people into his programming philosophy
>The information exists
Yes
>and is enough to make a game with.
No
Maybe I'll start watching your streams for the game you're working on. You're not some kind of nodev with no credible experience* or anything are you?
*credible means whatever I feel like at the moment
Are we really going to go there? You're going to say "well at least he's better than you"? That's your argument?
Your entire argument is "he has no game experience so you shouldn't listen to him" when he in fact has a lot of game dev experience. Who are people supposed to listen to? You're not pointing at anyone and I'm sure you're not able to fulfil the role either. Am I wrong?
>Who are people supposed to listen to?
Dude seriously, stop making this apologist argument, you should really just admit your fricking angle instead of playing this cringy "I don't have a stake in this I'm just here to correct you" angle, you CLEARLY have a bias here
I do not watch programming tutorials so I can't give you an answer. There is a guy called Cherno who makes a video series on making an engine - I have no idea if it's any good, but he has something up in running in much less time than Casey
https://www.gameenginebook.com/ Is a book written by an actual professional that actually covers pretty much everything in an engine, no bullshit, no listening to a guy waffling for thousands of hours, just the info. Although not really a good beginner resource
I fail to see how "please tell me ANYONE else" is somehow an apology for Casey, let alone a bias. You're actually moronic.
You've admitted that you don't even know enough about him to criticize or cite proof that he's a bad resource. You have no advice to people, you're just telling them "don't listen". Like some weird crab mentality nonsense. nodev telling aspiring devs to stop learning. What a useful purpose.
Now you're linking resources only because pressed and you even admit you've never utilized them either. Let alone enough to know if they're good or not.
This is nonsense. The entire purpose of this thread seems to be you wanting an audience to hear you b***h about some guy you don't even know anything about on a topic you have no familiarity with. Anyone who disagrees with you must be Casey himself. You're a looney with nothing to offer anyone.
"Don't point out the problem if you aren't willing to provide a solution" is an argument made by apologists. They don't want to acknowledge problems exist. This is a fallacy, I can point out that Casey makes a poor educational resource without providing alternatives. The fact that you use this argument, and you resort to trying to attack me personally when you have nothing else shows your bias as clear as day.
If someone asked me for advice I'd have plenty, but you aren't asking
>Now you're linking resources only because pressed and you even admit you've never utilized them either
That's because I learnt to program before the internet was even a thing dumbass
im asking for your advice on why i shouldn't listen to casey but so far your advice has been "he hasnt any video games" but then for the last six hours you've been walking that position back post by post with this other anon and now we're at the point where as a spectator I just want you to point out a singular solitary thing he is incorrect about and you cant do it lol
its gg bred. ya cooked it
>im asking for your advice on why i shouldn't listen to casey
Well I can sum it up quite simply. The promise is this:
>Handmade Hero is an ongoing project by Casey Muratori to create a complete, professional-quality game accompanied by videos that explain every single line of its source code.
What you get is:
650 videos
thousands of hours of content
No finished game, not even a finished engine, the project was abandoned
All of this stuff could be condensed into 5% of what it currently is
This is quintessinal nodev stuff. You waste time on pointless shit and you don't finish. Learn from people who produce things
>I can point out that Casey makes a poor educational resource without providing alternatives
You can and you have, but this isn't your personal Twitter. You felt the need to bring it to a place of discussion, not post your complaints into the void or to the person in question. You bring it to the attention of people as if there's some value in saying "I personally, Anonymous, do not like this man because his games stinky". Posters here have the right to call such a post (and its poster) garbage. Hence why
>and you resort to trying to attack me personally when you have nothing else
means nothing. You want to argue about credibility, citations, etc. you will be held to your own standard. Like it or not. Pleasant or rude.
You want to call developers nodevs with no credibility then get upset when it's thrown back at you.
>If someone asked me for advice I'd have plenty, but you aren't asking
False, since I asked for this several times and got no response until now and the response should be seen as bad even by yourself since you have no idea how credible it is. You don't even know how credible or not Casey is. Do you know anything about game development? I haven't seen you post anything about it that implies you do.
>That's because I learnt to program before the internet was even a thing dumbass
Irrelevant. I can cite the schools, books, experience, etc. I've been through regardless of the internet's existence. And so could you.
Instead you pluck vague things randomly. "someone else would probably be better", "maybe some open source project", etc.
Nothing concrete, no advice for the people you're trying to sway. No value. No games.
I personally dislike Handmade Hero as an educational resource, I've explained why, with undeniable facts (7 years, thousands of hours, no game)
I'm not here to talk about myself
>he stayed true to his original ideals
>Handmade Hero is an ongoing project by Casey Muratori to create a complete, professional-quality game accompanied by videos that explain every single line of its source code.
>7 years
>no finished game
>no finished engine
>He has inspired a generation of programmers who carry a craftsman mentality to developing software and a healthy dislike for inefficiencies
Yeah, this is arguably a good thing, but I think most of these people are people who just don't accomplish anything because they're ideologically driven. But I'd say it's a net positive
at this point can you just write like a full blown election style concession speech and wish the other guy well in his future victories? i've already declared that you lost the thread. be gracious in defeat.
You don't just win an argument by declaring you've won an argument bro
I point out that he hasn't accomplished anything in thousands of hours and you get mad and start ad homineming, that's a classic sign that you, infact, have lost the argument
i haven't insulted you once. you did lose tho.
>9 years
>667 videos
>No game
That's not me, family. That's the spectator and resident discussion moderator.
Thanks for the validation Anonymous. I think we were both fair and reasonable during this discourse. (Up to a point.)
What's your point? I shouldn't listen to him because one of his games isn't finished yet? Not convincing enough, don't even know how credible or knowledgeable on this subject you are either. +L +ratio +didn't ask +this discussion has concluded peacefully
You shouldn't listen to him because he spend 9 years making the first 20% of a simple game that he promised to finish and didn't
He is a classic nodev who wastes time navel-gazing and doesn't know how to complete
just when I think im out they pull me back in
I should listen to you why?
Am I preaching a position? Am I telling you what to do? I'm telling you what Casey DIDN'T fricking do, and that you shouldn't listen to him because he didn't fricking do it
Or do you think that people who are incapable of doing what they said they would do are good people to take advice from?
>Am I preaching a position?
Yes. You're saying not to listen to someone. Why should I listen to you? Where is the merit in your argument?
>Or do you think that people who are incapable of doing what they said they would do are good people to take advice from?
Hypocrites are great people to listen to for advice. A smoker will tell you not to smoke with a cigarette in their mouth. A limbless man can tell you to jump hurdles.
By your own admission Casey has worked on several published games. Some by himself and some in collaboration with others, so your point seems moot.
>Why should I listen to you?
Don't listen to me, listen to this:
9 years
667 videos
No game
This should appeal to the practical common sense of anyone with a brain
Sounds like a lot of educational resources. You don't seem to have anything negative to say about them, yet you tell people not to engage with them? Except when you say they are good resources. Curious.
>You don't seem to have anything negative to say about them
I do. It's thousands of hours longs. That's an extremely negative thing to say about them
In the time you spent watching those videos you could have actually learnt to make a game and made it all by yourself
yeah but i could learn how to cook a meal in a few minutes including every step along the way but that doesn't make me a chef... does it?
If you spent those thousands of hours making your own game you'd be in a much better position than you would watching Casey fail to finish his
How can you talk like that? You've spent 5 hours doing anything besides making a game.
I wasn't aware I had to spend all hours of the day making games
I'm just saying if you spent those hours making your own game you'd be in a much better position than you would arguing about Casey's.
Not really, I can't work all day every day, sometimes you need time to mull over ideas and do other life-related things
Is anonymously discouraging people on the internet for several hours benefitting anyone?
>nobody really learns from what he is doing
Again, the numbers disagree with you here. You're entitled to your opinions, but you're ignoring the facts.
>Again, the numbers disagree with you here.
What numbers are you referring to?
You're saying that nobody learns from this. Any and all feedback speaks against this. There are people on the mailing list, forums, Twitter, GitHub, etc that speak about their experience with it. There's veteran game developers that vouch for it. There's people that have learned enough to release their own commercial products using information he's published. I can't see this as anything other than a positive impact. And all for free.
I didn't say that at all, and regardless that's the argument you're looking for when you say "nobody". That's easily disproven by any counter claim, it just so happens he's popular so the evidence is overwhelming.
Well I don't think you'll be convincing anyone, but doing so wouldn't be very productive either. Taking a would be programmer and stopping them in their tracks seems like a benefit to nobody.
Especially one willing to get invested into the difficult and time consuming tasks that nobody seems to care about anymore despite caring about the benefits that come as a result of that practice.
>Well I don't think you'll be convincing anyone
Nobody is convinced by someone just telling them they're wrong, unless they unusually unbiased. But it plants the seed of doubt in their mind
And it's ridiculous of you to assume I want people to stop programming, of course I don't
You don't want people to listen to him and your major complaint seems to be that he's not concise enough. But you present no alternatives, only a hypothetical.
>All of this stuff could be condensed into 5% of what it currently is
This is a pointless hypothetical because I can just as easily say "40 years of experience could be injected into your head like in the matrix". But nobody is doing that. When you find someone who's doing this then you can complain to these people learning from the slow method, and point them in the right direction. Telling them to stop listening now with no way forward is analogous to telling them to just stop altogether.
JEJ
>But you present no alternatives
Watch more concise educational material, duh
Education is not a fricking mind copy. Education is not infodumping everything you know onto your audience so they can pick it up and be copies of you. Education is foundational, you teach people the fundamentals and you teach them the applications so they can then go on and become good programmers themselves - You do not become a good programmer by watching thousands of hours of lectures no matter how good the lecturer is. You have to leanr to think for yourself
>Watch more concise educational material, duh
Why should they watch that when they can watch magical educational material of which I have no source for.
You seem to have strong opinions on both this topic and education. If this is important to you as you seem to imply, why not put the effort into doing it yourself?
Why hasn't anyone else? Why do people flock to this instead and claim to derive value from it? Why denounce it?
You also seem to misunderstand that you don't need to watch thousands of hours just because the whole set is such. You can get the answers you need from much fewer, single digit hours even. You don't have to read each volume in an encyclopedia for your set to be worthwhile.
>Why do people flock to this
His ideology
Which I don't neccessarily disagree with, but don't take me saying Handmade Hero sucks as me saying people shouldn't make "handmade" software, whatever you want to call that
I've got strong feelings about a lot of things but only one brain and one lifespan so I can't spend my time fixing every problem in the world
>You can get the answers you need
It's not Stack Overflow. You don't want it for a particular answer to a particular problem. Most of the things he talks about are answered better elsewhere, and most of them are so specific they aren't really applicable to a general audience. It was supposed to be a tutorial that you follow from start to finish, to make a game. He ended up making this tutorial thousands of hours long as he meanders around and changes the spec. So it's a bad tutorial, and also a bad encyclopedia (not that it ever set out to be one)
>You don't want it for a particular answer to a particular problem.
>It was supposed to be a tutorial that you follow from start to finish, to make a game.
Like half of the people that are even interested in the project are using the topic index to understand specific parts of how game engines work and aren't even building an engine themselves. It's purely for educational purposes.
>I can't spend my time fixing every problem in the world
I'm gonna be honest, I think investing a whole work day trying to detract from a guy you don't even seem to dislike, nor do you dislike his work, might not have been the best use of your life, and it probably would have been better spent making some of the better resources you wished people would use instead.
>Like half of the people that are even interested in the project are using the topic index to understand specific parts of how game engines work and aren't even building an engine themselves
That's strange to hear, because from what i've seen it's pretty incomplete in that regard. Do you have any examples?
>I think investing a whole work day trying to detract from a guy you don't even seem to dislike, nor do you dislike his work
If this were as petty as I dislike him as a person, yes, of course. But I don't, I disagree with some of his ideas, so I will argue with his ideas. I see this is a valuable use of time. Not as valuable as actual work of course, but I can't spend all day working
>pretty incomplete in that regard
Depends on what, but the lectures usually give solid principles before any of the implementation is done which is what matters there. His specific implementation isn't going to be valuable to know if you're using someone else's engine but understanding how it's implemented conceptually (or at least 1 variation) is useful.
>Do you have any examples?
If you mean testimonials, probably the forums or Twitter posts. If you mean the index itself, I can't find the wiki one I remember, but it might have been overtaken by this: https://hero.handmade.network/episode/code
which is a searchable list of each segment of each video so you can drill down to only concepts you care about.
I haven't seen him cover any topic to the point that it would be a good general purpose learning tool for just that topic. That's not a criticism of him, because it's not that style of resource, it's a (very long) tutorial video
I don't know if you are moronic, or just trolling. But the whole point of this disagreement is that you don't like him. But if you want that to hold any weight, you need to provide concrete evidence.
I guess before "leanr to think for yourself", you should learn how to think first.
Look I just don't like him ok?
I know.... UGH I know ..... I'm sorry!!
It's just that I'm not gonna listen is all
>But the whole point of this disagreement is that you don't like him
I think he's an alright guy, he's has a nice personality. I definitely wouldn't say I dislike him
So you're saying if something's popular that means it's right? That's fricking dumb
He's mainly popular because of his opinions
>Is anonymously discouraging people on the internet for several hours benefitting anyone?
I believe it is, yes, the more programmers I can convince to stop following false idols the better off the world is
>It's thousands of hours longs
So? There's an index for the topics so you only have to engage with the systems you care to learn about which will be a fraction of the time. If you don't want to understand a component then you don't have to, just use some library that does that part for you and don't learn how it works.
>In the time you spent watching those videos you could have actually learnt to make a game and made it all by yourself
Yes, that's what it does. Your point?
The reason it's thousands of hours long is because he spends a long time just fricking around and waxing philosophical and changing the spec and deep-diving into experimental shit
This is of no use to anyone, it's not an educational resource, it's a livestream of a programmer being a programmer
so you HAVE watched it then?
I've watched a bit of it, of course, why would I say something sucks if I've never even watched it
>This is of no use to anyone
Judging by your post you seem to prefer the style of asset flipping. Which is fine. But some people want to learn how to make a game, and this is for them. The numbers and projects from 3rd parties that have sprouted as a result of this, simply disagree with you.
Good educational resource = to the point, uses somewhat contrived exercises to make things easier to understand without missing the essential nature
Bad educational resource = Just a programmer doing his thing for thousands of hours
Learning is highly subjective. What's good to you isn't necessarily good for all, nor does it imply anything about the quality of the resource.
nobody really learns from what he is doing. If you like his ideology fine, I'm not saying that's bad, I'm saying Handmade Hero is a shit learning tool
>undeniable facts
All of your facts have been refuted, some even by yourself. The strongest Casey defender in this thread, has been you.
Even this
>7 years, thousands of hours, no game
was argued against. You want to consider something "not a game" by your own arbitrary metric. You're entitled to do so, but that does not make something a fact.
In any case, you're allowed to dislike it, despite the fact you haven't even evaluated it.
But don't expect people to hear your asinine remarks and be convinced they should start listening to you telling them to stop listening to him; especially with no alternative advice.
>I'm not here to talk about myself
I can imagine why.
>was argued against.
The game is not complete
The game is not even close to complete
>expecting 40 years of experience to be taught in a total of 6 months of livestreams
It's not finished because it takes a long time. As far as I can tell there's NOBODY in the world going through this much effort to divulge a full career's worth of knowledge for free. You literally have nothing else to compare him to because nobody actually undertakes such a massive project. Would be amazing if he were even finished in 7 years.
Should one simple game span "an entire careers worth of knowledge" and take a decade to finish?
>should it take this long?
Yes if the target game is of a quality that usually takes a team years to develop, he is teaching during the whole process, and doing it at the pace of a weekly livestream. This is not 7 years of daily streams, it's weekly streams so your measurements of time passed is already inflated.
He was making a simple game
It shouldn't take thousands of hours to do
Now I know you're being willfully ignorant. Goodbye.
>. This is not 7 years of daily streams, it's weekly streams so your measurements of time passed is already inflated.
Huh, the latest episode says day 667. You're just mistaken, if you thought he was making good pace before then you should adjust your opinion
Anon, you know that 667 days (aka. 667 streams) is not equal to 7 years. If I had to explain everything in a codebase that takes teams years to develop, I don't know if I could do it in two years.
Anon, you just said you thought that he was doing one episode per week. I never said I thought he was doing episodes daily. The person who is mistaken is you.
How do you feel now that you've been told this new information? Is your opinion going to change or are you too invested in the argument?
lol. I'm not going to argue with you Anon.
>code = graphics
I'm sure you can prove you're right. Can you save him the time he already spent by showing him how to engineer the same codebase from scratch, in no time? (send it to him, don't bother replying to me)
The code eventually results in the graphics on the screen, you can see from how barebones the game is that it doesn't actually do much of anything
It doesn't take a team years to develop a very basic game that looks like this
?t=1101
You would think the game would actually be cool if it required 40 years of experience and 7 years of dev time to make
u rly doin him like that? fk
>sounds like admitting defeat
>im getting very close to announcing the winner of the thread unless
>i've already declared that you lost the thread. be gracious in defeat.
>lol. I'm not going to argue with you Anon.
Same guy btw
mediator anon is based
>he's never worked on anything game related
>well ok maybe he has but I don't like those games
>I briefly skimmed his new game and jumped to the conclusion anyone could do this in an afternoon
Be warned. OP is likely trolling.
the thrill
the excitement
~ Anonymous arguments ~
gunpowder forum
all it takes is just a spark
boom! go the flame wars
thread hits bump limit
now to sink into the void
hours of writings, doomed
Out, out, brief flame!
Leave but ashes in the ring,
Remnants of a fight
Out, out, brief flame!
>0.70 posts/min
>going on over 5 hours now
>currently 2nd most active thread on Ganker
>the most active thread is literally botposted constantly
now THIS is shitposting
Off topic: what ever happened to "browser". This one.
OP on the top right
he admits that he's terrible at game design and making something actually fun
what nobody can deny is that he's a top 1% programmer who has shipped great robust and fast code that's in hundreds of games.
>he admits that he's terrible at game design and making something actually fun
That's good that he agrees since game design and programming are as different as musicians and drawgays despite both being artists.
>Not a good game
>Not an efficient way to learn programming or game design
What's the point? Literally why does handmade hero exist?
To infect the next generation with cnility
The first few dozen episodes are a good primer on how to make a winapi wrapper for a videogame.
No he is not some elite 5 sigma programmer. His existence nevertheless causes a lot of seethe from webshitters and various troglodytes of the computing world.
W-who are the elite 5?
1. iballdesigningdeveloper, king of kings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Dp4nMr_AY
I meant it as in one in few millions good.
This argument is still more efficient than Casey's programming
If he is so smart, why did he become obese?